Has LeBron’s Situation Changed? Plus, Breaking Down the Second Apron With Jeff Siegel | Game Over

Summary

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Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Has LeBron’s Situation Changed? Plus, Breaking Down the Second Apron With Jeff Siegel

Date: July 6, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Brief Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul take a deep dive into the rapidly shifting NBA landscape, with a special focus on LeBron James’ ongoing free agency saga and the enormous impact of the second apron under the new CBA. The episode features in-depth analysis from cap specialist Jeff Siegel, hitting on everything from the logic behind the whiteboard viral moment to the philosophical and practical repercussions of new cap constraints. Tone is candid, conversational, humorous, and at times, heated.

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Main Themes

• LeBron James’ Decision Process: Is his situation evolving, and how close is he to deciding his next move?
• Agent/View Behind the Scenes: What really happens when players like LeBron are weighing options?
• Second Apron Deep Dive: The real cap constraints, financial ramifications, and league-wide strategic pivots resulting from the new CBA.
• Team Building & Player Value: How teams are evaluating stars and role players (Jaylen Brown, Mitchell Robinson), the impact of analytics, and the nuances of player roles on contenders.
• Philosophical Debate: Fairness in the NBA—big vs. small markets, resource distribution, and what fans should expect.

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Key Discussion Points & Notable Moments

I. The Whiteboard Moment & Inside Agent Process

[01:35 – 06:38]

• The now-viral whiteboard from Clutch’s office explained—meant to offer genuine transparency to fans on high-stakes player decision-making.
• Rich Paul, Max, and Jeff riff with humor about spelling errors and what fans think “goes on in the room where it happens."
  • Rich Paul: “We were just kind of going through things about… wanting the viewer to understand it more if they can see it.” [03:09]
  • Max Kellerman: “When you brought out the whiteboard… People are literally looking at a whiteboard that you took from Clutch's office… They're actually seeing what's going into the process of making a decision.” [05:18]
• Fans “aren’t close to the levers of power,” so transparency is cool and necessary.

II. The Uncertainty Around LeBron’s Decision

[08:03 – 11:34]

• Max and Rich clarify for listeners: No pre-determined plan, decisions are fluid ("dynamic not static").
  • Max: “At first, he’s like, I'm 80% gonna go back to the Lakers. Then you check in a week later…” [09:06]
• Rich shares he’s not pressing LeBron: “Let him enjoy the weekend with his family. Gotta do that sometimes.” [11:22]
• Addressing Bill Simmons’ theory on LeBron joining a team midseason—Rich says it's not realistic due to the importance of training camp for player integration.

III. Analytics, Decision-Making & Player Roles

[13:17 – 22:25]

• Rich and Max debate analytics’ role in evaluating defense and player efficiency (Jalen Brown, Kawhi Leonard, Cade Cunningham).
  • Rich Paul: “I'm not the biggest analytics person, but I want to have some of it.” [14:39]
• Discussion expands to roster construction: the importance of role acceptance (Tristan Thompson, Dennis Rodman, Josh Hart), and how analytics can sometimes undervalue intangibles or sacrifice for the team.
  • Rich Paul (re: teaching roles): “You're the CEO of sanitation. Meaning, don't worry about scoring. Rebound...” [27:03]
  • Max Kellerman: “If you have a team and Dennis Rodman is not on the team at forward… the team’s not complete.” [27:34]

IV. Impact of the Second Apron: Knicks, Celtics, and Big Market vs. Small Market

[34:10 – 80:45]

• Jeff Siegel joins [49:32]:
  • Explains the draconian restrictions of the second apron, the effect on front office decisions, and the rationale (protecting owners from their competitive instincts; talent redistribution).
  • “The intended consequences to me, from the owner's perspective, would be just to lower the cost of running their business.” [52:07]
  • Clarifies why Knicks lost Mitchell Robinson—a decision mostly motivated by owner James Dolan’s unwillingness to pay the huge luxury tax/penalty (not a front office strategy).
    • Siegel: “He doesn't want to spend the money... His front office wanted them in the second apron for Mitchell Robinson.” [54:32]
• Max’s heated rant: “If 90 million is too much, even as the equity in the team is shooting through the roof... sell the team!” [56:21]
• Rich pushes back, noting the difference between a backup’s impact and core players.
• Debate over whether big markets should be able to leverage their resources more than small markets, and philosophical fairness:
  • Max: “To suggest that each Sacramento fan is worth five New York fans... it's not fair.” [73:26]
  • Rich: “Despite what location I’m in and the population... why should that make me of the lesser?” [72:36]

V. Free Agency, Team Dynamics & Capology

[80:45 – 86:12]

• Discussion extends to Jaylen Brown’s trade, Sixers’ new financial outlook, and if Paul George’s arrival “clarifies the pecking order” in Boston.
  • Rich Paul: “I don’t think Paul George comes in there with this idea that he’s number one. I know he doesn’t think that.” [80:17]
• Jeff walks through the interconnectedness of trades, contract structuring, and how front offices strategize with future flexibility always in mind.

VI. Media & Attribution Beef

[86:39 – 88:18]

• Max and Rich slightly irked over ESPN giving credit to “Legion Hoops” for Clutch’s whiteboard segment. Good-natured but pointed.
  • Max: “My good friends at ESPN... I hope they are not intentionally not crediting Game Over...” [87:12]
  • Rich: “Legion Hoops may have just been the first ones to pick it up and go...” [87:48]

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Selected Memorable Quotes

• Rich Paul on Free Agency:
  “It's a fun time for us. It's an admiration for [LeBron James]... but I can care less [about critics].” [04:56]
• Max Kellerman on Decision-Making:
  “As you mull things over, things can change, your opinion can change… You ever have a big decision to make, like, I don't know what to name your kid?” [09:06]
• Rich Paul on Analytics:
  “I'm not the biggest analytics person, but I want to have some of it... evaluating things... it goes all the way down to what has been the history of someone in this position valuing a possession that's going to matter.” [14:39]
• Max Kellerman on the Apron:
  “If $50 million in tax money... is too much for you to pay, even as the equity in the team is shooting through the roof... you're selfish and cheap and greedy.” [56:21]
• Rich Paul on Market Size:
  “If we're one of 30 and there's only 30... why should that make me of the lesser?” [72:36]
• Jeff Siegel on Owner Decisions:
  “Are you sure you're going to be there when that pick is frozen in 2035...? Or are you thinking we'll go into the second apron because, A, it's just money and it's not my money…” [55:05]

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Timestamps – Important Segments

| Time | Segment Description | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:35 | Whiteboard moment origins, agent transparency, Rich & Max banter. | | 08:03 | LeBron decision process, dynamic behind-the-scenes deliberations. | | 14:33 | Analytics discussion, defensive metrics, individual team/player evaluation. | | 27:03 | The “CEO of sanitation”—embracing roles, team-building metaphors. | | 34:10 | Lead-in to second apron/Knicks discussion, Jeff Siegel intro. | | 49:32 | Jeff Siegel’s full segment: cap mechanics, second apron details, league-wide implications. | | 56:21 | Dolan/luxury tax rant; philosophical debate on big vs. small market equity. | | 72:36 | Fundamental NBA structure: should small and big markets be truly equal? | | 80:45 | Jaylen Brown trade analysis, interconnected contracts, Sixers/Boston team dynamics. | | 86:39 | ESPN attribution “beef” over the whiteboard segment. |

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Tone and Structure

• Conversational, humorous, and at times, passionate and combative—especially on ownership, legacy, and fairness in sports.
• Effortless switching between high-level philosophical arguments, deeply nerdy capology, and locker-room stories.
• Each speaker’s personality shines through: Max is animated and direct, Rich is wry, steady, and insider-savvy, and Jeff Siegel brings data-forward clarity.

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Final Takeaways

• LeBron’s next step remains undecided; process is transparent but fluid.
• The new second apron is fundamentally reshaping NBA team-building and ownership risk tolerance.
• Big-market vs. small-market dynamics—and what’s fair for fans—remains unresolved and hotly debated.
• Expect ongoing attention to nuanced cap matters and more “whiteboard moments” as the league pivots toward a new era.

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For die-hard and casual fans alike, this episode offers a masterclass in modern NBA front-office decision-making, the hard economics of winning, plus some top-shelf sports radio antics and real-world analogies.

Transcript

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[Max Kellerman]

Rich, you know what we should do with your whiteboard? You saw it went viral all over the place, right?

[Rich Paul]

I didn't see it. Yeah, I was golfing.

[Max Kellerman]

You were golf.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Of course you were.

[Max Kellerman]

We need to put that on T shirts, Max.

[Rich Paul]

You can't tell me my own idea.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll put it on T shirts and I'm gonna cut you in 25%.

[Jeff Siegel]

Really?

[Rich Paul]

No, we're partners, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, fine.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm saying. Can't take you anywhere, man. I'm not paying for your sweaters. I see what's happening here. Your sweaters is going up in price.

[Max Kellerman]

My sweaters? Oh. Oh, absolutely. Listen, Dean and I have a little connect. We're good.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I seem to be cut out because I'm sitting here with a Choi boy on.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you're dipped, as always. Well, yeah,

[Rich Paul]

there's a. There's a difference, but it's okay.

[Max Kellerman]

But no, we got to do it, right? Got to put us on T shirts.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we got to do it. You're right.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's great. That went bananas, by the way. Other shows have the whiteboard, and they're analyzing the whiteboard, you know, Matt.

[Rich Paul]

But. But that wasn't the intent, I don't think. I think we were talking that morning, and I hit Jacoby because we were sitting there working, actually, Jeff and I, who's coming on the show later today to talk with you about. About the second apron and things like that. But we were just kind of going through things about.

[Max Kellerman]

This is basically your cap guy and your.

[Rich Paul]

And yes, but the way I. The way.

[Max Kellerman]

What's his title at Clutch?

[Rich Paul]

I call him Mr. Everything. It's senior Caps specialist. But the way I go through everything. When you're going through it, for a player of this magnitude, you know, I'm like, that's one board. It's like four of those things, though, right? And so wanting to. I was talking to Jacoby, you and I were talking, and I asked Jacoby, I said, jacoby, can we get the whiteboard? Because I just felt like the viewer would be able to understand it more if they can see it. Right. And see how you plug things in and see what matters most. And I left some stuff out that. That I. That I thought about. And again, I apologize for misspelling Edgecomb's name.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you misspell his name?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's E on the end, and I knew that.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, spelling be champ89. But. But there's. There's just a way that I.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you really win a spelling bee?

[Rich Paul]

I did, man.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I once came home, I got something wrong on a spelling test, and my father threw a chair at me. Never got something wrong. They didn't give you nothing.

[Jeff Siegel]

But. But.

[Rich Paul]

But a slice of cheese pizza from two days ago, they reheated and give it to you with a little bow on it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

But my dad.

[Max Kellerman]

Lunch.

[Rich Paul]

My dad took us to Red Lobster, or maybe he took us to. There was a spot. The Samurai House. It was. It was that before Benny Holland. The Yum Yum sauce comes from this place.

[Max Kellerman]

I could tell you what word was not on that spelling test.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

Edgecomb.

[Rich Paul]

Edgecombe was not on. Edgecomb was not on there? No, Edgecombe was not on there.

[Jeff Siegel]

But.

[Rich Paul]

But.

[Jeff Siegel]

No.

[Rich Paul]

And so I wanted to just give people insight and a little peek behind the curtain. And here's the thing. In. In times like this, it's actually pretty cool because you can't take yourself too serious in this time. This is a, this is a fun time for us.

[Max Kellerman]

Can imagine, right?

[Rich Paul]

It's a fun time for us. It's an admiration for lj. You know, you're going to always have the haters out there, like those that we know that have a microphone. That's never said anything great about LJ or me for that matter, but I can care less. But with that being said, I did not know it would take on the leg.

[Max Kellerman]

You know why, Rich?

[Rich Paul]

I was. That wasn't.

[Max Kellerman]

It's good because it's graphic. It's built for this. Yeah, right. Yeah, you can see it. But it's more than that. And this is why when you called me about doing this, because I was already. I had something and I was, you know, something was in the works. And when you called me, hey, we should do a show, what was so intriguing to me is the way when you, let's say you see a finals game, right? You're going to have some clients, maybe on both teams, whatever your reaction to that game may reflect some of your clients feelings about things may just be a reflection of your own feelings about things. But how you're processing it could actually have an effect on what happens next in the league. So your opinion is not just someone with an opinion, but it's an informed opinion that may be actionable. Right. That may actually affect what you see. So this is an example of that. When you brought out the whiteboard, it's like when you say, peel back the curtain. People are literally looking at a whiteboard that you took from Clutch's office basically and recreated here. They're actually seeing what's going into the process of making a decision. So, so it's, it's, it's gripping.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. We didn't have enough space for the other whiteboard because there's, there's other components to things and you know, just dots you're connecting because you have to, you have to try to help the picture be painted to a place in which you understand there's no perfect scenario. But you got to dump everything out to help someone make the best decision for themselves. It's a really, it's a really tough. Normally it's a very tough position to be in because you, you're, you're, you're focused on something or there's something that you're trying to attain. Like there was whether it was a championship, making good on a promise, so on and so forth. But in this case it's just a lot different. And so Again, just not. Not really taking yourself too serious with things. Look, I think the. The fans and. Which are viewers, but fans, you know, they've given. We don't. We're not here without the fans. And so anytime you can give them something back, I think it's pretty cool.

[Max Kellerman]

But there's. Oh, there's. I think there's a sense that people have when they're not kind of close to the levers of power, when they're not in the. What. What. What they call it in Hamilton, which I heard from when my. My kids were the ages of like, three until they were like eight years old. Right. The room where it happens.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what. And people have a kind of a sense that, for example, if LeBron is opting out of coming back to LA, if he's saying, I don't wanna go back to LA, not opting out, but I'm gonna leave, that some decision's already been made that there's. That the wheel is in motion and that it's all just a show. And that behind closed doors, it's like, okay, we're really gonna go to the Warriors. We already know what we're gonna do. And when you show them the whiteboard, it's like, oh, wait a minute. They really aren't sure. They are considering these things. And you can see why it would be compelling to go to. To or to Denver or to back to Miami.

[Rich Paul]

You know, I asked you the question, Max, the reason why I asked you the question. I said. I asked you a question. You said, well, I said, max, you see, you said the same thing about every team, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And I was like, there you go. So, you know, it's such a hard thing to. To decide on.

[Max Kellerman]

But yeah, and when he is, like you said during that show, at first, he's like, I'm 80% gonna go back to the Lakers. Then you check in a week later, like 50%. Then you check in a week later, 30%, and you check in later, and it's like. And you ask him, are you at 100%? You're gonna. It's time to move on. And he says, yes. What that shows is, it's dynamic. It's not static. As you mull things over, things can change, your opinion can change. You get a sense of. And by the way, people can relate to that. You ever have a big decision to make, like, I don't know what to name your kid. Right. Like, so just some big decision to make. And first you don't know, and eventually you have you have a moment of clarity where you go, that's. That's what I want to do. And he's not there yet with all this stuff.

[Rich Paul]

And everyone's going to speculate. They've been speculating and we're not, you know, we. You allow that. My thing is with the calls, and it's not me calling. People were calling me. You know, you had incoming. Yeah, I saw something and somebody was like, I was calling 27. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not calling anybody. You know, the calls were coming in, and rightfully so.

[Max Kellerman]

You're in the LeBron James business. That's the incoming call business.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, the calls were coming in and I say that very respectfully, because who, again, if I'm in the. If you're in the business of basketball and you don't place a call, you shouldn't be in the business. You should not be in the business if you're not placing a call, for that matter. And so, but ultimately, again, it was one of those things where, you know, just. It was a spur of the moment thing and trying to let people on the inside a little bit. So.

[Max Kellerman]

Has LeBron's situation changed since we last spoke? Has he, has he moved. You don't have to say where he's moved in what direction. But has he given you any indication that he has mulled things over and he's starting to form an opinion?

[Rich Paul]

No, I've been holiday. I've been just really just, you know, in the bunker, Jeff, and I haven't, I haven't even checked back in on anything.

[Max Kellerman]

Have you guys discussed at the timetable?

[Rich Paul]

Nope, I haven't had a conversation. I've been letting him, you know, just kind of enjoy the weekend with his family. Got to do that sometimes, you know, just kind of, hey, man, you know, come back to you.

[Max Kellerman]

So Bill Simmons, the podfather himself, suggested that LeBron might. Could maybe possibly make a decision in season. I don't think that that's a thing, but is that a thing said what. He might. He could, he could like, start the season, see how it all plays out. And then

[Rich Paul]

let me tell you something. I think when you are ser. You know, you're going into a year.

[Max Kellerman]

I hope I'm representing that correctly. Jacoby. I'm representing that correctly. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that. That sounds. Yeah, I think, I think I understand what he's.

[Max Kellerman]

I met. In fact, I heard when he said that. And this is. He said this a while back, actually. He could wait until things play out to see. So that way he could rest during some of the regular season, join a team for. For the.

[Rich Paul]

You know, I mean, look, I don't know nothing about that, but I think it's important for anybody, for that matter, any player, you know, when you want to, especially on a team you didn't play on the previous year. Training camp is for a lot of things. Not. You don't get in shape in training camp. You actually are in shape once you arrive in training camp. That's like going to college and just starting to start reading. Your summer reading. When. The first day of school, you know, you gotta take the test on the first day.

[Max Kellerman]

Outrageous that they have. Can I just say summer reading.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying that's. That's the real thing. But. But no, I think. I think when you're on a new team, training camp is so important. That's where you get a lot of things done. Camaraderie starts to build, stay after work with guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Plus, LeBron has to. He uses that time to figure things out. I see it on every season, on every team, the LeBron you see early in the season and the way that

[Rich Paul]

you're gonna see a lot different later.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, and by the way, I've seen him. I have seen him in playoff series. It was apparent to me from afar a decade ago, decades ago, at this point where I got the feeling he sacrificed that game just then. You don't go in trying to lose, but he's trying to figure stuff out because it's problem solving, right? Like, that's what the smartest players do. And then he can sometimes use a game to figure out the problem and then, like, you know, act on it.

[Rich Paul]

You know what I worked on today, Jeff and I today, we talked about. I mean, we were together all this morning, but today I worked on. We talked about defensive ratings on ball. Defensive individuals help. Help defense from individuals looking at how offenses is ran. And it's so much that I. I probably don't have to do all the things that I do, but I choose to do it because I just think it's important.

[Max Kellerman]

You mean. You mean going into the analytics and seeing the different. The way. The different components of defense.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not the biggest analytics person, but

[Max Kellerman]

I want to have.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I want to have some of it. Want to have some of it. And I think as you're really dissecting things and evaluating things, it goes all the way down to, you know, just. Just how. How. What has been the history of someone in this position valuing a possession that's Going to matter.

[Max Kellerman]

You got all these things especially because it is hard to tell just by the naked eye because there's so many reps, right. If you like I saw, I'm wish I could remember. I should look it up. I just followed this account on Twitter. Too lazy to look it up right now. But I'll shout it out next. Next show some analytics guy who's on Twitter, I think who does interesting kind of deep dives into it to explain in English what the analytics say about different players. And one of the interesting things about Jalen Brown, and this is where analytics come in handy, you could see he's a good defender. He's a good defender, period. He's a two way player. But sometimes, you know, a guy gets a reputation because one season he had a great defensive season. The next season he might not be quite as good. He's still a good defensive player. It's hard unless you're watching a lot of games of that player, it's hard to tell. And the analytics might tell you, hey, or even on offense, I read something interesting that Kawhi's offense is not affected by the defense he plays. Meaning when he his offense is the same whether he's playing a great defensive team or media mediocre defensive team, he's going to get his right. There's nothing you can do to really stop him from getting his. Whereas other players. One mentioned was Cade Cunningham, which surprised me. I love Cade, struggles against good defenses. Maybe that's because he doesn't really have a second scoring option on the team, whatever it is.

[Rich Paul]

That would have had a lot to do with it this year.

[Max Kellerman]

But the analytics are important in terms of to gauge where a guy is at a moment in his career because who has time to watch all 82 games that every player.

[Rich Paul]

Well, things like this, I mean if you get to make a choice down, it's like, okay, what is the ATO success rate? I mean it's so many different components that you can chop up that we go through from a prep perspective. Now you may get to a position and you present all this and, and that person is still like, yeah, but that don't matter. This is, this is my decision. But that doesn't mean you don't prepare for it in that way. So it's, you know, like I said, it's a fun time as monks, but I got other free agencies. I'm sorry, we have other free agents as well. So you're still working the phones and doing different things, but it's good. It's good. It's a good. It's a good time to be a fly on the wall in the office, that's for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that's what this show is about. You're kind of a fly on the wall a little bit.

[Rich Paul]

A little bit?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, a little bit. Is Jaylen Brown, do you think, positioned right now on the Sixers, or do they like Maxi's going to have the ball? Yes, and I think that's good for. I think one of the reason the analytics don't like Jaylen Brown right now is because kind of like Kawhi, if you're pressed into a role because you can do that role right, but it's not the best use of you. If you're handling more, but that's not really what you're best at, you're going to turn the ball over more, you're going to take more shots. They won't be as efficient. The analytics will tend to punish someone who's taking one for the team. By the way, here's a great example of it. You could have a player think Cal Ripken Jr. In baseball, he has the consecutive games played streaky broke Lou Gehrig's record. If you're a shortstop, you play 162 games a year. A lot of times you're playing through a lot of injuries and all of a sudden, one year he might not hit so well. Right. And the analytics won't love him because he stayed on the field. And what's the value of that? To lead by example, the dependability, the continuity, the fact that you fought through the injury, there's value in that. So the fact that. But your stats might suffer and the analytics might say, oh, he wasn't great that year. Jalen Brown was forced into a role that is less than ideal for him, and he did it and he and the team excelled as a result. But when you dig into the numbers, they're not going to be as flattering for him as if he were in a role where he could play more efficiently. See, I think that's part of the discipline.

[Rich Paul]

I think his efficiency will go up. I think he hasn't played with a scoring guard like Tyrese since he played with Kyrie Irving. And that was like his rookie or sophomore year, I believe. So now I think he'll be at a different place on the floor, but they'll stagger him because you still have to give him his ISO possessions and things like that, where he's catching it at the wing and being able to face up or he's getting a switch and posting on a smaller guy. His catch and shoot, he shot a lot better from three now. I think for them, it's just going to be. How can we restraint. Have restraint from going into this ISO ball type of scenario? I think Vijay could really. It's gonna seem as if he may be taking a step back.

[Max Kellerman]

He'll actually get to be, but he'll

[Rich Paul]

actually be taking a step forward. See, this is simplifying his game.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I mean by simplifying analytics. Rich. It may seem like he's taking a step back. You know, it'll seem like that in the superficial stats.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, Right.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's all analytics are. Is. And I hear a lot of coaches and players bristle because they want to count points, rebounds, and assists, because that's what they're used to happen in baseball, batting average. But no, it's on base percentage. It is more than that, even. And all the analytics are. Are just better stats than the ones you're used to. So Edge Comb, I agree. His counting stats that people are used to might take a step back. I'll bet you the analytics will like Edge Comb more this year.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I bet you so would Nick Nurse.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right, right.

[Rich Paul]

No, because again, I think sometimes Tristan was on Shannon Sharp's show the other day, and he talked about he was averaging, like, you know, he's starting to get some double doubles and coming back off of, I think, a second year that was pretty good. First year wasn't that good. But coming in. And when LeBron came back, he had to really simplify his game because it makes everything shrink. Right, Right. And I. You've. You've heard people like Junior talk about this as well. I think it's important for young players to. We always talk about identifying a role, but not just that. If you. If you have the ability to simplify your workload. And this is why Kawhi was so good when he went to San Antonio, because they only allow if you. If you go back to his first couple years, he was only allowed, really to shoot corner threes. Right, Right. Swing, swing, threes. Everything else was slashing, getting out in transition, et cetera. But what that does is it gets you into this mentality of taking great shots. And so sometimes if you go back and watch playoff series and you watch them and you see the young players, you'll be like, damn, why'd they take that shot? And it's a talent shot, but it's not a. What I would say a prep shot. Meaning I Watch film. I understand where I'm at on the floor. I know time and score. I realize I'm an in. You know, if I'm not a real step into type of three point shooting guy, I shouldn't take that shot even if I'm wide open.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I remember in Miami, maybe his second season in Miami when he, I think it was on the right side, he had a little spot where he would always take that three. And he became an incredibly efficient shooter from that.

[Rich Paul]

Well, the second, the second year in

[Max Kellerman]

Miami, maybe it was the third year. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But I think that's the year he and D. Wade both said they're not shooting a ton of threes. They were very efficient. It was either. It was either 2012 or 2013. Both of those years was unbelievable, but they were very, very, very efficient. And early on, Paul Silas used to run LeBron off of pin downs and it was a lot less dribbling. And then obviously when he was in Miami, he was extremely efficient there.

[Max Kellerman]

But I bring it up just to say, if LeBron James in his 10th season can still learn how to take to be more efficient, then Vijay Edgecomb and guys like

[Rich Paul]

this is why second season. But again, when you evaluate in the situation, you even have to evaluate that type of stuff. And then the people around certain players and what they're going to say, because it can work two ways max. If a guy come in and let's just table LeBron. I don't want to make it LeBron focused, but just let's just say superstar player number one comes into or is on the team, you are high draft pick. And so now you're on the team and you have this expectation, right? I want to be an all Star, I want to be a max player, et cetera. You, you have to evaluate the noise, what's coming out of those speakers of the people around this player. What is actually being said, what is he actually listening to. These type of things matter. Because if it's going get yours now, that spills over into not just a game on a Wednesday night in a regular season, that also spills over into a playoff series. That creates issues.

[Max Kellerman]

You know who spoke about this recently? Josh Hart. I saw a video of Josh Hart talking about it was hard for him to accept in the league that his job is not to be the scorer, it's to do all these other things.

[Rich Paul]

That's a real thing.

[Max Kellerman]

And he talked about it as he normally does. Honestly, it was really good.

[Rich Paul]

You know what I said to Tristan?

[Max Kellerman]

Not everyone's like that, though, you know

[Rich Paul]

what I said to Tristan? And, and. And people don't understand how important having a relationship with somebody that actually listens. See, in. In our community, we come from a place where you get defensive about everything. Somebody shouldn't tell you anything. I'm defensive about it. That don't work. It don't work in his business, especially for.

[Max Kellerman]

That's every community, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

Human nature, I can only go by, you know, but in. In it's only 30 teams, which. Which realistically is only 30 number one options. Everyone else plays a role. Let's just be clear. And so I said to Tristan, I said, listen, you know that these look, these jeans. It's a little pocket on your jeans. Yeah, yeah, Be in that pocket.

[Max Kellerman]

The prophylactic pocket.

[Rich Paul]

No, because, because,

[Max Kellerman]

because.

[Rich Paul]

And he was like. He was like, what are you talking about? I was like, okay, let me rephrase it. Let me. Let me help you understand. LeBron's a. Let's just say he's a Ferrari. Kyrie's a Lamborghini. Kevin Love is.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. LeBron is a Ferrari.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Isn't a between a Ferrari and a Lamborghini.

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean?

[Max Kellerman]

I think the Lamborghini is above the Ferrari. Am I wrong?

[Rich Paul]

You're definitely wrong. But. But that, but that's.

[Max Kellerman]

When I was a kid. I know those countaches with that door.

[Rich Paul]

That's defeating the purpose. I'm going by style of play and different things. Kevin loves a Rolls Royce, right? Kevin loves.

[Max Kellerman]

I think you're over. I love Kyrie and Kevin.

[Rich Paul]

No, you're making it too literal. No, you're making it too literal. Kevin, I'm talking about. No, no, no, no, no. Bugatti's trash. Listen, we're on the. We're on the highway. We're on the highway. It's a four lane highway. Those three guys are in the lane. All right, you're in the fourth lane. What kind of car are you in?

[Max Kellerman]

It can't be a super fancy car. In other words, you got to be in a truck.

[Rich Paul]

You're in an F350.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. All right.

[Rich Paul]

You are the CEO of sanitation, right? Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Otherwise the team.

[Rich Paul]

I can guarantee you this. You take the person that owns this beautiful company, built it, they're billionaire. And then you take the person that owns Waste Management. Can this buy something that the person that owns Waste Management can't? No. Exactly. So that's what I was explaining to Double T. I'm like, don't worry about what anybody else has to say, you are the CEO of sanitation. Meaning, don't worry about scoring. Rebound, office rebound.

[Max Kellerman]

This is why when people ask me for my all time team, I don't put him in the starters, but he's on the team no matter what. And people, oh, no, this guy's better. This guy's better. But if you have a team and Dennis Rodman is not on the team at forward, at a power forward, like, again, everyone can shift and score.

[Rich Paul]

And here's the thing about this. If you talk to the reason why T. Lou loved Tristan so much, it's because he can put him on the floor. And he made things happen.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

In our conversations, he talked about it. When I was talking to Dan and Nate about his deal, I was just like, okay, yes, I know he doesn't average this many points, but let's talk about the offensive rebounds, the offensive possessions. If you equate the points to the offensive rebounds, because he's getting the ball and he has a awareness to kick the ball out, instead of trying to be greedy and lead with his ego and go up for a shot, think about how smart that is. You have to pay guys like that.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, this is why. Well, the Knicks don't. Because this is why the Knicks won the championship. One of the major reasons at all times they had two guys like that on the floor. OG Is like that, even though he's a complete player.

[Rich Paul]

And Josh Hart's like that.

[Max Kellerman]

And Josh. And Josh Hart.

[Rich Paul]

Three guys.

[Max Kellerman]

So in the two guys in those two. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

All times. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

In the starting lineup, you have OG And Josh.

[Jeff Siegel]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And when, when Mitchell Robinson's in there, you either have three or you have some permutation of those three. That's. That's two of them. Always there are two guys like that on the floor.

[Rich Paul]

And you can now that.

[Max Kellerman]

Now, now you lost one of them because.

[Rich Paul]

And the thing about it is, with a player like down the floor, when it was Tristan at that time, you can also switch. You can. So your defensive package is different. When I look at the Sixers, you know, defensively, they're going to be strong. Now, obviously, it depends on which Joel Embiid you get.

[Max Kellerman]

Or just any Joel Embi.

[Jeff Siegel]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But this is what the Sixers are going to come down to, I think, Rich, because you can't say. It sounds like you could say this about any team, but you can't. They will either run the table if everything lines up just right. But I don't think that's a high percentage. I think it's the issue with Joel Embiid is that he's such a good player that when he's healthy, he necessarily changes the way your team functions. Because it's hard not to see him in the post. Right. All those kind of things. But then his health, he's in and out of the lineup. So it screws up the rhythm and the chemistry.

[Rich Paul]

But they will take a step if he can live with playing within the flow. Now, obviously, if you have the mismatch, great, go to it. But ball, screen, pocket pass, short roll, even on the short roll, catch, draw, kick. Like it's little detailed. Things that matter so much when you actually trying to take a step as a team.

[Max Kellerman]

Interesting. So Joel Embiid, this is like. Who said that this is like a lesson that DeAndre ate and learned too late. Right? But in Joel Embiid's case, it really is true. If everyone's at the height of their powers, even with Jaylen Brown on the team and everything. Max's development. Joel Embiid is easily the best player on the team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Healthy. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

However, in order for him to actually be a better player because you're only. Your value in the NBA has to do with how it affects the team in wins and losses. He has to be a lesser player. He has to do. He has to do a more defined role that does not fit feature him as much in the offense in order for the team to be better.

[Rich Paul]

And that's okay. That's okay. Because it's a big thing to ask because I guarantee you it's a plus six or plus seven in the win column. And here's the thing. In the playoffs, though, this actually changes because each series is right.

[Max Kellerman]

You may have to feed him.

[Rich Paul]

You may have to feed him this series because they. Because in the East. Okay, where's the bigs? Miami has bigs, Boston has bigs.

[Max Kellerman]

Knicks had bigs. Knicks have. Knicks have big. Now

[Rich Paul]

Washington have biggs.

[Max Kellerman]

Remember when Joel Embig was making fun of Mitchell Robinson because he's too big for him, and then what happened? Right. No. Mitchell Robinson is not on the team anymore.

[Rich Paul]

But Mitchell Robinson. When you think about a guy like Mitchell Robinson, in order to be able to move laterally at that size and his second jump and his shot blocking, timing of shot blocking, whether it's. Whether it's help or not, he's just. Mitchell Robinson's pretty strong from that perspective.

[Max Kellerman]

So all I know is I seen Embiid and Wemby talk shit to Mitchell Robinson because they thought they had the upper hand on him at a certain point, and. But in the end, he had the upper hand on them, and he's a backup center and he's back now. He's in Boston.

[Rich Paul]

Zubeck is that.

[Max Kellerman]

Is Zubeck news for the Celtics, bad news for the Knicks?

[Rich Paul]

You forget about Zubeck and Indian. Yeah, that's going to be a really good starting five with. With Halliburton back, so.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I'm not sleeping on them.

[Rich Paul]

No, you can't.

[Max Kellerman]

No way.

[Rich Paul]

No, you can't. So. So, you know, like, again, to answer your. Your question, I. I do think. I do think Philly is going to be strong. It's just going to. It's just. It's going to take them a couple games to really. To really find that cohesiveness, and maybe they can find it in training camp, in the playoffs, but they're going to be something to work with for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

What's up with Draymond Green's new contract?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. What are you asking me that for? I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

I figured that he's opting out so

[Rich Paul]

he can have a. I don't know you already. No, I don't know.

[Jeff Siegel]

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The World cup is finally here, and the coolest thing right now, FIFA World cup launch edition on Netflix. A fast and fluid where your phone is the controller and your TV is the stadium. Play as any of the 48 teams in 16 real world stadiums and it's included in your membership. Yeah. Go to the games tab on your TV and play FIFA World cup launch edition now only on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by Boris Head. What if we told you the taste of deep fried turkey is now available at your local deli? Well, Borishead just did that. Bursting with flavor, perfectly seasoned with that indulgent taste that usually means planning your whole day around it. Presenting the Friar's turkey breast only from Boar's Head. A backyard tradition now available behind the counter. Visit your local deli today. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite. Boar's Head, committed to craft since 1905.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen, we've covered a lot and we still have to talk to your senior cap specialist.

[Rich Paul]

I think I want to know what you think about it because I only brought him. I won't say much at all, but I only brought him because I know you have this affinity for the second apron.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, not an affinity. Well, I have an affinity for talking about it recently.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. For talking about it.

[Max Kellerman]

Because it just. I'm so furious At James Dolan right now, Rich. He had a chance. I almost feel like, how can you

[Rich Paul]

be furious at a man and want to change?

[Max Kellerman]

I feel. I feel bad for him. Him, in a way. I'll tell you why. Like, I'm. In a weird way, I'm rooting for him. Because you should be. Because he went from New York villain. He's a New York villain. He has burner accounts, allegedly. It looks pretty likely where he's trying to praise himself to people who are taking shots to him.

[Rich Paul]

I don't believe any of that.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I mean, that's. It's been widely speculated, at least.

[Rich Paul]

I don't believe that.

[Max Kellerman]

I've screen grabbed a bunch of them from years ago. They're hilarious. But, you know, someone's saying, oh, James Dolan is a genius. He's great. Everyone wishes he was James Dolan. And then they found out, oh, yeah, that's probably James Dolan. But. But the point is, he goes from that. Reviled, mocked the goat. Not greatest of all time, kids. Goat used to mean a bat. The bad guy, not the hero. They won the championship. I thought what he said. I thought the peps. The pep speech he gave in the locker room was laughably bad. However, what he said after one day won the championship, I thought was great. I thought it was the best thing anyone said.

[Rich Paul]

It was great.

[Max Kellerman]

He apologized to New Yorkers for waiting so long. And he said, let's hope it's not another 53 years. I thought it was right on the money. And he eventually, after trial and error, most, you know, all error, he finally stumbled upon the right situation, got out of the way. They won the championship. He had a chance to be the ultimate hero, patch it up with Charles Oakley, be the bigger man. Even if you think Charles Oakley did wrong. Hey, Dolan, let's say. Let's just say for the sake of argument, you're right and he's wrong. Let's just say that was the case. That is the case. Still be the bigger man. Patch it up and then do the right thing with this team and keep this team together. Even if it cost you a few bucks. He had a chance. Mitchell Robinson's playing for the Celtics this upcoming season. Now, if he gets hurt and he has been injury prone early in the season, I'll look like an idiot. And it'll look so.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I think.

[Rich Paul]

I think you sleep on Drummond. I think drumming. Drumming will be impactful.

[Max Kellerman]

Drum is. By the way, he's also a good offensive rebounder and all that stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Drummond was a big Time rebounder.

[Max Kellerman]

There's something more than that. Like when you have special guys on the team, on the nucleus of a team that came together and was organically great like that, man, you give, but

[Rich Paul]

you don't know if

[Max Kellerman]

there are seven core players on that team.

[Jeff Siegel]

Core.

[Max Kellerman]

And like, McBride is excellent. They have other guys sham it, the whole thing, but they had seven core guys that no matter what, you could not touch and they touched one of them. So. Anyway, I want to bring up. I have questions about why. Yeah, you could mainly. I want to vent, but you can talk about it.

[Rich Paul]

Ask as many questions as you want. He'll be. He'll be more than happy to take you through it. Please don't ask about anything that we're doing from a contractual perspective, because this is a live show and it's important to keep things a little bit.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course I wouldn't. I promise.

[Rich Paul]

Your fingers is crossed. It doesn't make sense, Max, but it's okay. He's. He's smart enough to. To know where to navigate. Yeah. To. To know where. Where not to go. But. No, listen, I thought it was good. So many. I'll tell you this. So many people called me and it was, you know, just talking about things and it was cool. So they really enjoyed our. Our segment, the whiteboard. Yeah, they. They. They really enjoyed it. They really. Yeah, that was. That was. That was pretty cool. They really enjoyed it. So we won't bring it out for. For. For a little while now unless we have something really to bring it out.

[Max Kellerman]

I have a prediction make.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

I think that LeBron's decision is coming pretty soon. I don't think it's going to be weeks and weeks and weeks. My guess is it happens faster than. Than you're letting on. Or that some people.

[Rich Paul]

I'm letting on.

[Max Kellerman]

I hope you're not letting anything.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, no, you're not.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, I just feeling that one thing

[Rich Paul]

that won't be done, Max, there's no leading on number one, so that's. That's not even right.

[Max Kellerman]

In other words, it's not this grand secret where you already know what's going to happen and this is all smoke and mirrors. He's really in the process of.

[Rich Paul]

We don't need that. What do we need that for? We don't need that.

[Max Kellerman]

Is there any other domino that could fall that could affect things? Is there a free agent out there? Is there a move that might be made?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I see people speculate that. I really don't know. You know, I really don't know. Like I told you, I've been telling you before, it's like, hey, take the time needed. I got to continue to do my job, which I will do. As things happen around the league, I update and adjust.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I mentioned the other day that Boston could be a destination. I can't see LeBron ending his career in Boston. I can't see. Would be interesting. Playing for the Lakers and the Celtics would be super interesting. I can't see it. I could see Philly, I could see Golden State, I could see Cleveland, and I could see Miami. That's what I could see.

[Rich Paul]

So you could basically see every team in the league?

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, those four. Those four is what I'm down to. In fact, LeBron, I'm going to make this decision. Decision.

[Rich Paul]

So how you gonna hate on Boston?

[Max Kellerman]

How am I gonna hate on Boston? Is that a trick question? I'm just saying root against every Boston team.

[Rich Paul]

No, but not on this show. That has nothing to do with that. You can't be a fan.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not hating on them. In fact, I said the other day that it's a super interesting fit for him. It's just that I just can't see it, like, for LeBron to end his career on the Celtics, I think is less likely than on the Cavs, the Warriors, the Heat.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but what. But my question to you is, what

[Max Kellerman]

else did I say? Cavs wears Heat, Sixers.

[Rich Paul]

My question to you is. And don't read too much into this. I'm just asking the question. My question to you is, on what basis? Like, what. What does he owe? What does he owe anybody?

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, it's about certain teams have certain. Certain kind of brands. I could see. I think we would agree, right? Certain. And the Celtics brand is its excellence, for sure, historical. And it would be super interesting to have played for both the Lakers and the Celtics. But it's kind of a heel move to not only be itinerant, like

[Rich Paul]

you've

[Max Kellerman]

gone from team to team, but then to make the Celtics right after the Lakers the last team. I just find it unlikely.

[Rich Paul]

Why? Because you speak it from a fan perspective? Because I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't understand from a narrative.

[Rich Paul]

What narrative point of view.

[Max Kellerman]

The narrative would be that the Lakers were in decline. LeBron jumped ship and joined a team that had recently won a championship and that was retooling in order to be a powerhouse. And that even though. And also to go from the Lakers to the Celtics, it's like going from the Red Sox to The Yankees.

[Rich Paul]

This is all overthinking. See, this is what happens. This is what happens on TV shows. This is what happens on taking the Celtics off.

[Max Kellerman]

This is, this is no Knicks, no Celtics. I'm taking them off the board.

[Rich Paul]

All I'm going to tell you is no Denver. This is all overthinking.

[Max Kellerman]

At this point, we're down to four teams.

[Rich Paul]

Rich, that's whatever you want to say, but at this point, do you think the warriors there should be a care about a narrative? I'm asking a serious question.

[Max Kellerman]

I do, I do. Because I think.

[Rich Paul]

Under what circumstances?

[Max Kellerman]

I think that no matter what you say, the truth is that LeBron, and by extension the people around him for good reason, is very interested in his legacy and supplanting Michael Jordan. And I think every little, I think every little piece of evidence that you could marshal.

[Rich Paul]

No, let me tell.

[Max Kellerman]

When he's this old and, and could, could win a championship somewhere and improve

[Rich Paul]

his, you know, I think that would

[Max Kellerman]

be important to him.

[Rich Paul]

There's no supplanting Michael Jordan because that don't even matter because the people that are rooting for or against, they, they don't, they don't really have a say in anything. If there's a conversation between Michael and LeBron, let them have a conversation.

[Max Kellerman]

But, but the way it's framed for years and years and years.

[Rich Paul]

I understand what you're saying, but here's the problem with all of that, and this is where I can't speak for every athlete, but when you've accomplished what he's accomplished, it don't matter what nobody else thinks but him and his family. That's the only people that matter in this situation. To me, this is just me and I'm a part of the industry.

[Max Kellerman]

I totally agree with that. He shouldn't, but I get the feeling, not to the extent that like KD is obsessed with it. I'm not saying he's in that boat, but I get the sense through certain things he said through the years that it is important to him and he would like to be thought of that way. And by the way, stands to reason, who wouldn't want to be?

[Rich Paul]

But you know, it's like comments on social media, right? If you just read comments on social media, there's gonna be 50 positive comments. There's going to be 150 negative comments.

[Max Kellerman]

You feel like he gets more negative than positive?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I don't, I don't look at it. But, but when you do look at

[Max Kellerman]

it, certainly I'll Say this to be LeBron James.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

You.

[Max Kellerman]

The. The ratio should be a thousand positive to one negative. No one's perfect. Everyone has negative stuff. But. But the fact that he has to experience a world where it's like close to 50, 50 must feel absurd to him.

[Rich Paul]

But. But even those people. Think about it. If you just unplug the impact, what would that mean for you? That. That mean you. You would be bored at the barbershop, you'd be bored in the backyard at the barbecue. You like it. It's all actually positive. None of it is actually really negative. It's actually all positive because you actually need both.

[Max Kellerman]

Thank God for sports. That's all I have to say.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I'm saying. Yes, you actually need both. And so. But all I'm. All I'm saying to you is, as an athlete, when you are making decisions that in the grand scheme of things, the most affected is going to be you worrying about narratives and worrying about someone else's opinion and things like that, that can't deter your decision.

[Max Kellerman]

That's going to fix for you. I agree. I don't think it should, but I think it gets factored in.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I think that it is good for sports to have critique. It's good for sports to have opinions. It's good for sports to have.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait a minute. Wait, wait. Can. I want to contradict what you said just then? I want to offer some contradictory evidence.

[Rich Paul]

Go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

You said that had the Knicks not won, he'd have been in New York. But they did. And so that. I understand that. I get it. Because if they hadn't won a championship and he could put them. The fact that they did, the narrative would be. Look at him glomming up.

[Rich Paul]

I get it. That's me saying that with the understanding of what the conversations have always been as kids, you know, you talking about different things. And I'm saying that in a very like.

[Max Kellerman]

In other words, LeBron always kind of wanted to play in New York.

[Rich Paul]

If me and you talk.

[Max Kellerman]

Are you saying LeBron always wanted to play in New York?

[Rich Paul]

Hear me out. So. Because sometimes this stuff is taken a little out of context, but if me and you are talking and I'm like, man, if it wasn't for that, that wouldn't even been a thing. That we wouldn't even be. I'm saying it in that context of things. Because when you think about it, if you. Now, it may be now, obviously, it's too late today. But just thinking back, it's a. It's a match Made in heaven.

[Max Kellerman]

In heaven.

[Rich Paul]

You know, when you talk about just the height of the person, the media market, that is the consumer, the story, perspective of things, all those different things.

[Max Kellerman]

The day of the decision, I knew that the Knicks were kind of mess and all that stuff, but I thought, he has to be coming to the knicks because if LeBron James wins a championship in New York City. And when he chose the Heat, I was doing a radio show, max Kellerman show, ESPN out of 2 Penn Plaza, right above the Garden, and I bumped into Clyde Frazier that day. It was the morning, and we went to get breakfast. We just sat together and ate and commiserated over the fact that he didn't choose the Knicks. Like, people were so sad in all these markets that he didn't choose. But anyway. But I brought up that whole thing to say, it's common sense why you said what you said about he'd be in the Knicks because LeBron James, the new York market, that whole thing, but they won a championship. What would that mean for the narrative? So when you say the reason I brought it up is because. When you say, yeah, but why should he care about any of the external stuff? Because it exists.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is that's a different narrative. I'm talking about the. The malice narratives like this kind of like the negative. You know, people trying to. To place the negative negativity within narratives. Like, I just.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, so the Celtics not in the same boat as the next.

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean?

[Max Kellerman]

The championship diminishes the chance that he goes to the Knicks. Celtics not in that boat.

[Rich Paul]

I think he can do whatever he wants with anybody. Whatever. Whatever he chooses.

[Max Kellerman]

What was the show? Colombo, where he leaves the room and on his way out, he tries to get a little.

[Rich Paul]

No, I think he'd do whatever. I think he's earned the right. I said this before. I think he's earned the right to do whatever he wants to do. And again, I'm not. I'm not here to give any more speculation or anything. I think we've done a great job of kind of giving some insight. And, you know, whenever things take place is when they take place. I'll continue to do my job. That's all I'm doing.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm gonna speculate. Just don't.

[Rich Paul]

You can speculate. I don't mind you speculating.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, let's bring Jeff in.

[Rich Paul]

Let's bring Jeff in.

[Jeff Siegel]

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[Rich Paul]

apply, as you can see. Yes, I brought over. I want to introduce to you your capologist, Jeff Siegel. He's more than that, but that's just one of the many things that he's done as well. But I wanted him to come on. Obviously, when we started talking about this show, one of the things that we sat on was we definitely wanted to be informative. We wanted to give our viewers and our listeners an inside perspective on the business around all sports and, you know, kind of peel the curtain back a little bit. And so today I know how intrigued you are and how pissed you are about this second apron. So I wanted to bring Jeff today to talk to you and answer any questions you may have about this second apron.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, great. Jeff, glad you're here. Do you have anything to say to the people at home?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Just happy to be here, happy to educate as much as I can about the salary cap and how complicated it can be.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. So let's try to make it easy. So let's start with the Knicks. First of all, Rich has presented the idea on this show that the kind of hard cap effect of the second apron, because the NBA is now, I think you would agree, a hard cap league. Even compared to the NFL where you can fudge things and kind of get around things, pro rate contracts over longer years, etc. I find it hard to believe that, that what's happening is an unintended consequence. Otherwise, why would there be that kind of Dracula draconian language in the CBA where you can't combine contracts if you're in the second apron and so it's hard to trade for players. It seems like they've created a third rail that no one wants to touch. Is this the unintended consequence of that or is this the intended consequence? And if it is unintended, what are the unintended Consequences, Consequences.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I think the unintended side of it may have been the breakup of teams that everybody had connected with and really loved. And we'll see that perhaps over the next couple of years. With Oklahoma City in particular, you have these teams that everybody is very sort of happy to root for because they come from a small market. I know New York, not, not quite in the same boat, but obviously the New Yorkers are very happy with their team coming out of, of the championship run. And now we're seeing the fallout from how expensive that team is. The intended consequences to me, from the owner's perspective, would be just to lower the cost of running their business. Right?

[Max Kellerman]

So can you explain that to me? Because if the players get between 49 and 51% of revenue based, so the cap is based on revenue, and they will always get between those 2% percentages, how does it lower the cost of running a business for the owners?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Each individual owner can cry, basically, I don't want to go into the second apron because it's going to freeze my draft pick because we can't do this and that in terms of being over. We can't use the taxpayer mid level to sign an outside free agent, things of that nature. But really, you know, a team like New York that is going to pay up to the second apron and then $50 million more. More than that in luxury tax, if they cut that bill down and that money gets redistributed among other teams spending on players, their cost of doing business is less as a result of that.

[Max Kellerman]

So when James Dolan, who, through his gross mismanagement of the Knicks, has had them for the most part for decades, a laughing stock in the max. Max in the capital of the. No.

[Rich Paul]

And won a championship.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's be respectful.

[Rich Paul]

Let's be respectful.

[Max Kellerman]

No, you could be respectful. You could be respectful. He's not being respectful. In the capital of the known universe, if there is a capital of the known universe, it is New York City. It is the number one sport by far in New York City is basketball. There are a million ways to prove that. The number one team in basketball in New York by a million light years is the New York Knicks. And they finally won a championship, right? He kind of got out of the way, got his front office. They win a championship, he gets in the way, he invites Trump, they lose a game. Then Wu Tang comes on. They fix the juju, whatever it is, and they win the championship. And Mitchell Robinson, the longest tenured player there, maybe the best offensive rebounder in the league, whose offensive Rebound sealed the game, right? Famously. They would have to go into the second apron to resign him. And I think the thought was when he went on WFAN and said, I think he told Craig Carton on wfan, that's suicide. We can't touch the second apron. The thought was, well, probably his front office is telling him, hey, you're gonna handcuff us, we won't be able to make moves and such. And then it was reported, in fact, no, his front office wanted them in the second apron for Mitchell Robinson and James Dolan didn't want to spend the money.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

He doesn't want to spend the money. He is also in the grand scheme of the way that the league works. How many front office people who are currently in charge of their team will be in charge of their team in 2035? Sam Presti could still be there. The bones of the Miami front office, even if Pat Riley is not in charge. But the Andy Ellisberg and the bones of the Miami front, whoever's installed in

[Max Kellerman]

LA eventually, right, for the Lakers next couple of years.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Yeah, the Lakers may have a Runway where they're in there for eight, nine, ten years in a row.

[Max Kellerman]

Not these people, but whoever comes in next, maybe.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

But if you're New York and you're their front office, even coming off of a championship, are you sure you're going to be there when that pick is frozen in 2035, 2034, in the mid-2030s? Or are you thinking we'll go into the second apron because a, it's just money and it's not my money and B, the biggest thing that happens is that the draft pick gets frozen eight years now, eight years out from right now. If you're one of these front office guys and you see what the kind of turnover is among your peers, you might be thinking to yourself, I'm not going to be here anyway. I don't really care about that frozen pick.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, one thing I can't stand, just as an aside, Rich, but does it.

[Rich Paul]

It's one thing to get into the second apron. It's another thing to be there when the season ends, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Because you can get in and out, right?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

You can get in and out.

[Max Kellerman]

Celtics did it right.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Celtics got way down. They got all the way out of the tax. You know, you can go in over. It's just where you end up at the end of the year, right? And you'll really only get really, really penalized long term if you are in the second apron three out of five years. So if you've got a plan of like, okay, we're going to do Mitchell Robinson, but then Josh Hart's got a team option, will lower his salary as he gets into his mid-30s, something like that. Then all of a sudden it makes a little bit more sense that they could go in for a year, maybe even dip their toe in for two years, and then come back out.

[Max Kellerman]

I want to address this. Like, I've heard this. People say, hey, you shouldn't count other people's money and this and that. What a bunch of bullshit. Please, no one ever say that about one of these super duper billionaire owners. There's one of two options here. If you own, especially the New York Knicks, if $50 million in tax money or 90 million is too much for you to pay, even as the equity in the team is shooting through the roof, even though it's in the black every year, the whole thing, then one of two things. Either you are too poor to own the team, sell the team, or since we know that's not the case with Dolan, you're selfish and cheap and greedy.

[Rich Paul]

No, listen, let me say this. I disagree, Max. And, and I think that you're misreading the thing with, with, with Dolan and the Knicks. Because let's look at it from the other side of the coin. If you evaluate the season, if you evaluate the player, if you evaluate the impact that you always talk about offensive rebounds and things like that. But at the same time. Yeah, but at the same time, if that team goes into the penalty whenever that is, and he's into the game, that changed the game. Because now you go into the Hacker Mitchell situation.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, they just want a championship.

[Rich Paul]

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because.

[Max Kellerman]

But that argument's kind of defeated by what just happened.

[Rich Paul]

Not really. Not really. Because here's, here's what you're saying. You're basically telling me to go into the second apron for a role player who plays a role for this many minutes within this part, this only this part of a game, I may not want to do that, and I may not need to do that and still be successful because you got to look at it holistically. Yeah. You like Mitchell Robinson? I think Mitchell Robinson is a good player. I think he's an impactful player. But at the end of the day, he's still a backup big. Not only a backup.

[Max Kellerman]

Big on the Celtics. Too rich.

[Rich Paul]

That's fine.

[Max Kellerman]

Why did the Celtics go out and get him? You always talk about how smart the Celtics have a smart front office.

[Rich Paul]

Very Smart. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

They signed Mitchell Robinson as a backup. Okay, so the Knicks could sign him

[Rich Paul]

as a backup, but they also aren't paying. What? What? OG's getting paid. What car. Anthony Town's getting paid. What? Jaden Brunson.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, really have to. We're talking about the second apron. So does this. Do the Knicks prove that no one will touch the second apron now?

[Rich Paul]

No. There's been teams second apron.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

So why go in there? They choose not to based on the finances.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're, if you're, if you, if there are owners who will touch the second apron and you own the New

[Rich Paul]

York Knicks and you won't touch the

[Max Kellerman]

step and sell the team.

[Rich Paul]

By the way, we, by the way, if you're the Knicks, you're saying we just won. We don't have to do that after 53 years.

[Max Kellerman]

It's not like you're asking them, better win again.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'm saying. I would see you being upset in the event that they didn't touch the second apron for any of those guys that we know, right? Bridges, Brunson, Robinson.

[Max Kellerman]

Mitchell Robinson's in that?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

There are seven guys that you can't touch on that team. They already let one go. Alvarado's in there, too. I mean, I like the other guys, too.

[Rich Paul]

Can't touch.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't. Those seven guys, what they just did, they went on one of the greatest runs in the history of American team sports. They did it in New York City for a, for a, for a franchise. In the middle of the desert, they were so thirsty for nothing new.

[Rich Paul]

We saw on the last dance, the Bulls broke up after going on a

[Max Kellerman]

three peak and they shouldn't have.

[Rich Paul]

And by the way, there was no second apron.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

So there wasn't an eight.

[Max Kellerman]

They made a mistake. Yeah, they clearly made a mistake. Like the Knicks, they just made a mistake.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

But if you're James Dolan and you're calling your front office and you're like, okay, if we pay Mitchell Robinson and $15 million, how much is that actually going to cost me in act in

[Max Kellerman]

Raw, what it costs him, it cost him a billion dollars. I don't care.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Sell the.

[Rich Paul]

No, you can't.

[Max Kellerman]

If you won't pay the player, sell the team. My. I don't care about what Dolan spends. I care about the product on the floor. Can you describe when you hit the third rail, what it does to a franchise if you are, the season's over, you're the worst offender in the second apron, you're a repeater, etc. Etc. What does that mean?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I mean, if you're a repeater and you're at the second apron, first off, you got to write a check for $90 million that goes to the league. They split it up among all the non taxpayers. And so that's first off, a $90 million check.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, you got 10 billion. That's a lot of money.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

$90 million is a lot of money no matter what. But you also now have these penalties that you incur. And as soon as you're over the second apron in terms of what you can do during that season, you can't aggregate salary in a trade. The way that they got Carl Anthony Towns was by aggregating salary.

[Max Kellerman]

Couldn't do Randall DiVincenzo. It matches his salary, right?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

All of that stuff they did the three little signing trades with the minimum guys, all that stuff. Impossible. Over the second apron. And once you do one of those things, you can't go over the second apron for the rest of that year as well. You can't sign a guy to more than the minimum if he's an outside free agent who's not one of your own guys. So you have these real limitations on what how you can build your team right now. And I mean the biggest one, of course, is the $90 million check or 50 million if you're outside the repeater tax, which is where New York Would

[Rich Paul]

you know how much money you have to make max to write a $90 million check?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. 180 now.

[Rich Paul]

No, not what you worth. No more than 180 million. No, you're going to pay about half

[Max Kellerman]

of it will be gone. But. But rich. 90 million.

[Rich Paul]

No, you have to make times four. You have to make 360 million.

[Max Kellerman]

If you have 9 billion 90.

[Rich Paul]

You don't know if you're worth 9 billion and have 9 billion is two different.

[Max Kellerman]

That's true. If you're worth 9 billion, 90 million represents 1% of your wealth.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, but what do you have?

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, the equity in the team is going up. The team is throwing off revenue. Like you're not only. You're not like. Yeah, but you're not only making money in terms of the revenue profit every year, the equity in your franchise and the real estate and everything goes up.

[Rich Paul]

You spend it foolishly. You've made money for the last 25, 30 years. You've been making money since you was 14 years old. You haven't spent it foolishly.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I Don't. I would say that's the opposite of spending it foolishly. One of the reasons that, like, if you, if you win a championship and you have a core that you think can do it again and you have the means, it is an unforgivable sin to trade that. Like, now they have to repeat. If they would have kept them. They didn't have to repeat. Now they have to.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what that says to you in their mind. They say we can win it again without them.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, we'll see if they're right or wrong.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

And if you. If instead of calculating it based on salary plus tax, if it was Mitchell Robinson is going to make $50 million next year or Andre Drummond is going to make his two and a half plus probably seven in taxes, would you rather pay Mitchell Robinson $50 million or

[Max Kellerman]

Andre Drummond 10, Mitchell Robinson 50? Because what you're talking about is like, yeah, I remember, you're talking about marginal utility. What's the marginal utility? And that's. And basketball, because it's a hard cap. Every little advantage you can get is super important. So, for example, you can't sign someone to a max deal if they're. I'd say they have to be worth more than the max to make it make sense. Right. Because there you can have an advantage that's a marginal advantage. Who cares? Like people care if the owner saves $47 million. Who cares? You just want. You want an owner who's so competitive that they're willing to put it into the product. And if it's 47 million to be marginally better, who do you. You want that offensive rebound in the finals in the middle of the greatest comeback ever? Because if you replace him with anyone else, you don't win that game.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Yeah, but that's. I mean, that's the decision that they are. That's how they come to that decision. It's just the massive amount of money that it would take to have resigned him versus going in this other direction.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this one of the reasons. I think it is that LeBron James. And we've talked about this on the show.

[Rich Paul]

Show.

[Max Kellerman]

Incredible. It's an incredible kind of tribute to his greatness and his personality that at the end. Toward the end of his career, at the age of 42, 27 teams would love him to be in that locker room. Right. But I imagine part of the kind of frenzied. It's like piranha feeding right now is because if he's. If it's not about the money for him, if he's not ruling out vet minimums or at least mid level exceptions and things like that. Oh my God, the value, the talk about marginal utility or, you know, the value over what you're going to pay is enormous.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

The marginal value. I mean, Rich uses the word enterprise value. I think that's obviously a huge part of it as well. But his just on court value is obviously going to outstrip whatever contract that he ends up signing. And that's where you come from with the Mitchell Robinson thing is his, is his play on the court going to outstrip $15 million in actual salary or $50 million in cash out the door in addition to the other restraints that they have now if they need to, in the middle of the season, they can aggregate a couple of guys and go get the last piece to their puzzle. Maybe it is a center that they need because if Drummond doesn't do what he needs to do, then that may be where they end up and they kind of reverse course on the mistake that you're saying they made with, with letting Mitchell Robinson go. But you know, the marginal value obviously, and the enterprise value, as Rich loves to talk about in terms of what, what LeBron can bring to the table, obviously is almost incalculable.

[Rich Paul]

Now I do think, I do think, Max, one thing I will agree with you on is he's going to be really good with the, the Celtics. Really good.

[Max Kellerman]

Mitch Robins, absolutely. He was really good with the Knicks. I know, but, but, or just won a championship.

[Rich Paul]

But yes, but he's going to be. No, yeah, yeah, he's going, he's, he's going to be. Now the only, the only thing I don't want to see happen because I don't want to be here. And let's just say the Celtics go all the way. Yeah, yeah, you'll be.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, look here, here's, here's. Okay, so would you, would you agree with this just philosophically? The reason there is a cap in any league ever is because the owners are competitive people and their competitive nature will sometimes, in order to have a winning product, will sometimes get the better of their money making position. Right. And so they will choose being competitive on the floor over how much profit they make. And because of that dynamic, even in the rest of their lives, they want free enterprise and they don't want government regulation, et cetera. When they get together in a syndicate, which they have done, they put rules in place to stop them from being competitive and that the second apron is made necessarily super punitive so that someone like Dolan they have to raise the level of pain until a competitive person will say, no, it's no longer worth it to give me my best shot to win a championship. I will take some lesser chance to win a championship. That's the point, isn't it?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Yeah. I mean, and the point of the entire league as a syndicate or as a cartel and of what you're describing is very much the fact that the individual teams cannot exist without each other. And the, the difference between that obviously and like free enterprise is that like if Amazon rules the world and there is no competition, they're going to make their profit regardless. If the knicks ruled the NBA and won every single championship for the next 10 years and nobody else and these other teams fold, they got nobody to play against. So obviously they need each other.

[Max Kellerman]

However, you're suggesting something a little different. You're suggesting that they. So earlier I said if the players are getting between 49 and 51%, that's going to remain the same no matter what. How does this save the owner's money? No, it saves the owners who are in a position to win from themselves. It counteracts their competitive nature because the pain of the second apron is so extreme financially. Really. Let's talk. It's. Financially. It's not about draft picks and all that stuff. If your front office is telling you don't worry about that and you. And you don't do it anyway, that it saves the teams in a position to win from their own competitive natures and forces them to save money. Not the league as a whole, dude, just them.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Not the league as a whole. But it also distributes talent in a way that for all 30 teams, as they are running a 30 business, a 30 team business together, they need to distribute talent in the way that makes sense. That's how we have the cap and all these exceptions and the way the players move around and the draft itself is just a way to inject talent into other markets that may not get it otherwise. If we didn't have a draft, would anybody sign with some of these smaller market teams or would Cooper Flag have been like, no, I'm going to go to New York or whatever, you know, so it's. There's lots of systems within the NBA, whether it's the second apron or the cap system as a whole, or, you know, the luxury tax penalties which gets distributed among the teams that don't pay the tax or the draft itself, all of that stuff creates an environment where all 30 teams can survive.

[Max Kellerman]

However. Yes, however, in this case, it's Leveling the playing field so that Sacramento is treated the same as New York. And those are two very different places to suggest that a Sacramento fan is entitled to exactly the same chance at winning as a New York fan. It's to suggest that each Sacramento fan is worth five New York fans. Right? That's what they're saying. Because they're one fifth the population. I picked that out of a hat. It's probably less than that. And they're entitled to exactly the same product. There's that component which punishes big markets, and then there's a component that just punishes the smart. There's a smart tax that gets redistributed to the stupid. So that okc, which is a tiny little market compared to these giant markets, they're just smarter than everyone else. And now they have to pay a smart tax.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

They have to pay a smart tax or they have to sell off on Aaron Wiggins and Isaiah Joe, you know, taking back just draft picks for those guys. And it's making their team worse as a result. And some of that is financial and some of that, you know, is the second apron. And what, you know, for Presti and his front office, like they can look 9, 10, 20 years into the future because, you know, they've been around so long and they've been so successful that you could think that a frozen draft pick actually impacts what they need to do. So it's a little bit of financial and it's a little bit more of the pure basketball element to it and the team building, front office element to it. But it's the idea that you have to kind of treat the fans equally. Like you're saying where Sacramento gets the same chance as New York.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't mind that Sacramento has a fighting chance. They should have one.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you can't have, you know, there's nothing laissez faire. There should be some restraints and some redistribution of wealth. However, to suggest that they should be treated exactly the same is lunacy.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

But then how far does that go past this financial element to. It does. Just the finances.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but. But it can't be just the finances because all. All things matter in the NBA as it pertains as a whole with our ecosystem. So I understand what you're saying, but then you open up a whole nother can of worms if you, if you focus where you're trying to focus. Max, you said this before. It just wouldn't sit well.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

It's not that it wouldn't sit well.

[Max Kellerman]

It's that some teams have Some kind of financial advantage, or we're just rooting for laundry or we're just, you know, like.

[Rich Paul]

But the idea that. The idea that you're saying that the Sacramento fan shouldn't feel as entitled to their team and be on an equal

[Max Kellerman]

playing field, they should, but they should know that they're at a slight dis. They're at some kind of disadvantage.

[Rich Paul]

But why should they be at a disadvantage if my. If we're one of 30 and there's only 30.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Despite what location I'm in and the population of that location and the media dollars and the sponsors and the, the household income, why should that make me of the lesser.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, because necessarily by definition, you are. There are far, far fewer of you that support that team. There are many, many more people that support this other team. That does not mean there should not be a system in place to give the team a fighting chance, but to suggest that it should be exactly the same chance as everyone else is, as I said, when you think about it logically, to suggest that each one of those fans is worth five of those fans, it's not fair. Like there's a suit. There's a kind of superficial fairness. If The Knicks have 20 million fans or round number 10 million fans and this team has 2 million.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but, but you're.

[Max Kellerman]

And they're treated exactly the same. The reason the Knicks have all those resources is because five times as many people are invested in that.

[Rich Paul]

You're taking a population of New York City as a whole and then basically assuming that every last person in New York City is a New York Knick fan.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, three times the thing. There are many more Knicks fans. That's where the advantage comes from. Right? The ratings are higher.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Are going to spend $50 million more than every other team, are they. They're right up against the second apron. I mean, it's only Oklahoma City is right above it. They may trade their way out of it.

[Max Kellerman]

They're not. So Oklahoma City is going to spend as much as the Knicks right now we'll see where. Here's my example. Oklahoma City, teeny, tiny Oklahoma City spends the same thing as giant as the most giant important metropolis in the history of the known universe.

[Rich Paul]

But you're basing off the words.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, it's not even good for the league. Look what happens. Oklahoma City's in the finals against Indiana. No one watched. New York is in the finals. I don't know about San Antonio. It's the high. It's literally not only the highest rated TV Highest rated TV ratings this century. It's the highest rated since Michael Jordan.

[Rich Paul]

The one thing I will give you. One thing. I will give you that with the Knicks being in the Finals, it wasn't just the basketball that created the excitement of the viewership. It's everything that comes with being at the Garden, the celebrity row, the style of winning the comeback games, that this. So I will agree with you there. There's no question that when the Knicks are good, the NBA is better. We talked about that.

[Max Kellerman]

And there's this for the same reason.

[Rich Paul]

Lakers, the Celtics, the Bulls, for that matter, we talked about. We understand that. But you have to be careful when you say, if you put on this perception that this fan that's over here in Sacramento or this or. Or in this smaller market should not be as welcome as.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm not saying welcome. I'm saying every fan should be treated equally. Therefore, if one team has five times as many fans, that team should not have five times the resources. You can't have a league, but there should be some at least marginal financial advantage or else you're treating each one as totally diminished compared to each fan over here, which is also not good for the league, as you can see. Imagine if, because of what I'm talking about, what you could rely on every year is the Lakers, Bulls and Knicks were a powerhouse every year. And then in that system, other teams could pop up. Indiana could have a good stretch and a good run. The league would be healthier because more fans would be engaged. Guys as broken as our government side seems right now, even our government, where you have a Senate. Right. Where two senators. So every state is treated the same. A state with a million people, a state with 20 million people treated the same. You also have a house which is based on proportional representation. You don't just have a Senate. The NBA is run as though there's no house, there's just a Senate. You can't run a business this way. It's absurd.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

But if New York has the ability to go up to the second apron, yeah, that's their financial advantage.

[Max Kellerman]

If Oklahoma City's doing it too.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Oklahoma City can do it. They're choosing to do it. Are they going to be in the black next year if they do that? Probably not.

[Max Kellerman]

No one cares if they're in the black. They care about the product on the

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

floor, but the owners care. They're the ones who set the system.

[Max Kellerman]

So either they'll spend the money or they won't.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

And so far, what we see to

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

pay the tax in Their history. So.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Never made.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's a good point. In other words, so some places when

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

they financial advantages to being New York, to being Los Angeles, to being Chicago, if they were to use their financial advantages the way they probably should.

[Max Kellerman]

You're making a good point. You're saying that so there is a reflection of the area or at least the ownership because some smaller market people are so competitive that they'll go into the red to compete and others are less competitive and they refuse to. That's a good point.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

That's essentially. That's the financial advantage that New York has. They can spend up to the tax and then another 20, 30 million over in terms of player salaries, which is going to end up being $100 million in actual cash out the door. That's something that like Indiana.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't think Indiana will now if Halliburton gets healthy because they could come out of the east this year easily, right?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Could.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, they're.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

They're going to go up to the first apron. They're already hard capped at the first apron. So that's it. And that's 7 million over the tax. That's going to be a $7 million tax bill. Basically it's 1 to 1 in the first early bands. And then it gets really expensive once you're higher than that.

[Max Kellerman]

Where do you think the second apron will have an effect? Like the Jalen Brown thing, Did that have anything to do with the second apron? They look at Jaylen Brown and go, we can't give him 35% of the cap. We lack flexibility. He's just not good enough to do that. And so they trade him. They take a year off the deal because Paul George is expiring in a year. Right. How much of that is second apron related?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I mean, given the fact that both guys make roughly the same amount for at least the next two years, it's hard to imagine that that was strictly second apron related. I mean, there's got to be a lot of different reasons that you trade a guy like Jaylen Brown coming off of, you know, 6th and MVP voting and an all NBA team. So it's got to be more than that. It's got to be something. I mean, I don't know Jalen Brown. I'm not going to speculate whether he was on happy with being dangled in Yanis trade talks. I mean, certainly if I'm Boston and you go back to JB and you say, okay, we were willing to trade you for a guy who has won two MVPs and a Finals MVP. That's a compliment to you. That's not an insult. We're not unhappy with you. We were willing to do that. They wanted more, and we said no. Is it. Would he be unhappy with that if they. That was the explanation. I don't know. But now, I mean, then we're getting kind of outside of the financial element of it.

[Max Kellerman]

Look how worked up I got you already. You never did this before. You, like, it's like you've been doing this for 10 years. Look at this. I'm just saying, like, you're a new capologist. That's it. Show capologist.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I'm happy to come on and, you know, talk through some of this stuff, because it's not always the financial element of it. And in particular for Boston, was this something that they were thinking about two years from now, they need to be under the second apron, and so they can't spend $60 million on Jaylen Brown. Or was it, hey, this is the height of his value. This is Charlotte with Lamella ball. Like, we just got to do this.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. It also could be a little bit of everything. In that case, I. I do think. I do think both teams made out. I know what people are saying about the trade, and. And it was perceived to be so lopsided. I don't think so. I think it level sets Boston. I think it gives them clarity within their locker room and on the floor. Right within the pecking order on the floor. I don't think Paul George comes in there with this idea that he's number one. I know he doesn't think that.

[Max Kellerman]

And that makes. In your experience. That's actually a thing. A big thing.

[Jeff Siegel]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

That matters. Yeah. Because there's.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you've been in. You've been in a situation, for example, in Miami, and these guys are friends where LeBron is kind of overly deferential. It's not really working because he's the best player. Wade has to go to him and say, hey, listen, but if you don't have that kind of relationship, it could mess up a team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, they were. They had enough of that relationship and. And maturity to have that conversation. Not that the. Not that from a Boston perspective, they. They didn't. But they were also alike in so many different ways. Whereas in this case, it just. It just limit it. It. It takes out the overlap. Right. Because there was an injury. And now I'm here. I'm leading the team. I get here, the team is doing way better than anyone thought. It would be doing. And that's on my account. Right. I'm leading the charge there. And so what seems to be what looks like one thing may not look the same from a, from a.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, Boston also has that like. And by the way, I think the Knicks are there now, which is crazy for me to say. There are some teams like Sam Presti. No matter what Presti does, you're thinking that's a smart thing to do because it's Sam Presti. Right. That's kind of the Celtics front office. You give them the benefit of the doubt because they're smart. I said that are the Sixers is their front office.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Their front office is brand new.

[Rich Paul]

Brand new front office. We'll see.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, do you like the way they're handling their finances?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Sixers, he's saying, yeah, I mean the way that they're handling things are certainly very top heavy. They were going to be top heavy anyway. So this is a, you know, a further sort of declaration that they are willing to, you know, spend what's going to be 35%, 35%, 25% on their top three guys. Vijay is their fourth highest paid player at 11 million for next year. You know, that is something that they're going to have to kind of work around. And you know, going back to Boston, like because they have one fewer year of Paul George than they would Jalen Brown. What else can they do now going forward? What are they going to do with. With Paul George's option for next year? Do they resign him for something less over multiple years? That gives them a lot of flexibility. Do they use those two first round picks to go do something else? Like the. Because every trade is folded into every other trade that happens subsequently. It's always hard to say like, okay, they won this one, they lost that one.

[Max Kellerman]

What about the Warriors? There was so much press early on when Draymond opted out of his deal. By the way, I know his agent.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Yeah, me too.

[Max Kellerman]

He opts out of his deal and it's oh, LeBron could go to Golden State. Lacob has shown that he will touch the second apron. I don't think anyone wants to stay there too long. Right. But how does that affect what the warriors can do right now?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I mean, the warriors because so they've really set things up in a way that would allow them to touch that second apron. They re signed the Anthony Melton, but not so much that they can't go to that second apron. They extend Kristaps Porzingis. You can always bring your own Guys back just like the Knicks could have done with Mitchell Robinson. So the Warriors.

[Rich Paul]

I knew I shouldn't have brought Jeff because here's the thing. He's just this guy. With you, it's a four hour dinner. Yeah, it's a four hour dinner. Guarantee you four hour dinner.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

We could be doing this for a while.

[Max Kellerman]

You came in here like a deer in headlights, and now you're running the whole show at 20 minutes in a little bit.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

I mean, I've never been on TV before. Never done any of this stuff with the cameras and the whole natural look at this.

[Rich Paul]

No, I. I just wanted Jeff to really come on, just to give again, give our listeners and viewers a behind the scenes perspective on what is all this. Because you hear second April, second April, and everyone has their. Their opinion of it and, and. But he actually knows it to like. And here's the thing about the cba. Unless you're like a Jeff and you study this thing every single day, you're not going. There's just no way you're going to know everything. I don't care what anybody says. You have to be on the pulse. You have to be talking with the union all the time.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that what you do? You talk with the union constantly?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, absolutely.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Union all the time. Trying to understand how teams are structuring different things, how players are structuring their contracts so that we can have a better understanding of not just what's allowed, but what is kind of in vogue from a strategy standpoint.

[Max Kellerman]

Who do you think is the smartest in terms of, or among the smartest franchises in terms of.

[Rich Paul]

Don't answer that. Working neighbor Jeff.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

We've got guys on every team. Nobody is any better than anybody else. You know, we can. Yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

They're all the same.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

We're. We're happy to do business with all 30 teams.

[Jeff Siegel]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, well, that concludes this portion of the show.

[Jeff Siegel]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Hey, let us know what you think in the comments. I mean, I thought Jeff did an unbelievable.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, we're bringing Jeff right back to. To talk more. Every time there's a contract thing, you got to drive all the way up from.

[Rich Paul]

What we should do. What we should do is we should. When free agency is done, we should bring Jeff back and just break down every. Every move.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you see his whiteboard?

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Yeah. We could do the whole whiteboard for every team, but, I mean, we do that for the draft and for free. By the way, there's lots of private

[Max Kellerman]

whiteboards, handwriting on the whiteboard, whiteboards are hard. When we were like we were every time because we were doing whiteboard before we ever started the show. The. The penmanship is outstanding.

[Rich Paul]

You allowed me to misspell Edgecomb. I apologize. I was a spelling beat champ in 89. It made me look.

[Max Kellerman]

You were you spelling?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I was. Captain Arthur Roth. Yes, Captain Arthur Roth. But. But the thing about it is, Max, we got like four whiteboards. We were just in the office earlier today. Like, we was there, you know, 11 o', clock, 11:30, just working on different things, different scenarios.

[Max Kellerman]

And so Lakers heard that they got four white boys. We got. Oh, white boards, white boards, white boards. Oh, we got more than that. Oh, white boards.

[Rich Paul]

What is wrong? This guy is off his rocker. What is wrong with this guy? All right, thank you, Jeffrey.

[Max Kellerman]

Great job, Rich. Jeff was great, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

Jeff was great. I told you he would be great, though.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't doubt it, but that's the first time he's done this.

[Rich Paul]

That's the. I normally wouldn't ask him to do this, but. But I thought it would be cool. Coming off of. You sent me Coos tweet where Coos was talking about the second apron and, you know, the players versus the situation that they're in and free agency and all those things. So I just thought we were working anyway in the office. I just asked him, Jeff, come by the show and just kind of give.

[Max Kellerman]

But you know what's not a great idea?

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

So espn, Was this on first take? It was on Get Up. It was on Get Up. They're going over the whiteboard, right? And. Cause it's on all these shows, on all these pods, on all the. Everywhere you look, there's the whiteboard and people are dissecting it. And they credited Legion hoops. Legion hoop. Hold on. I hope that that's the fault of an inexperienced production assistant or something.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that was just a mistake.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. My. My good friends at espn, I have no malice. I love the espn. I hope that they are not intentionally not crediting Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul on Spotify and Netflix and instead crediting Legion fucking Hoops.

[Rich Paul]

No, I don't think they would do that, Max. I don't think they would do that. Legion Hoops may have just been the first ones to pick it up and go and then whatever, but I don't know. I don't know. I'm just giving the benefit of the doubt.

[Sports Betting Advertiser]

Unbelievable.

[Rich Paul]

I didn't even see.

[Max Kellerman]

I assuming that that was unintentional.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, that was. No, that was unintentional. I don't think that would be intent to do that. You should have called. Did you call?

[Max Kellerman]

No, this is how I call.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, okay. All right. But no, I don't think I. I really don't believe.

[Max Kellerman]

Face is like my passport. My life's my proof. I don't have to call. This is the call.

[Rich Paul]

Well. Well, what could be. I mean, I don't know. Maybe they talk about it to. Maybe they talk about it today. So yeah, you can address it in terms of.

[Max Kellerman]

Now it's addressed.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they bring it back up, but whatever.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. That's where the whiteboard comes from.

[Rich Paul]

Game over at Spotify.

[Max Kellerman]

Trying to make a living over here. What.

[Rich Paul]

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[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

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