Is It Game Over for the Chiefs? A Tough Year for Mahomes, a Big Night for LeBron, and Much More.

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul — Detailed Episode Summary

Podcast: Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Is It Game Over for the Chiefs? A Tough Year for Mahomes, a Big Night for LeBron, and Much More.

Date: December 9, 2025

Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul take on the biggest stories in sports, with a major focus on whether the Kansas City Chiefs' dynasty is at an end, the legacy and future of Patrick Mahomes, LeBron James and the Lakers’ evolving culture under JJ Redick, and the uncertainty surrounding NBA superstars Giannis Antetokounmpo and Lamar Jackson’s futures with their respective franchises. The duo also gets candid about the NBA Cup, NBA organizational cultures, and the future of boxing.

The episode is marked by candid, insightful debate between the veteran sports media host and LeBron’s influential agent, bringing together on-field analysis, business insight, and the personalities behind the headlines.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is It Over for the Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes?

Timestamps: 02:30 – 17:30

• For the first time in the Mahomes/Reid era, Max and Rich agreed the Chiefs looked genuinely beatable. Both express shock at Kansas City’s vulnerability, especially after a must-win loss and seeing Mahomes unable to rescue the situation.
• Max: “For the first time in the Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid era… I expected them to lose.” (03:04)
• Rich: “But I think as long as you have Mahomes, obviously you always have a chance… but I think it may be time to take Mahomes out the deck and then shuffle it.” (03:13)
• The guys dissect what’s changed: Travis Kelce’s decline, the lack of a Tyreek Hill-type weapon, uncharacteristic drops, O-line questions, and possible cultural erosion in the locker room.
• Rich: “Professionally, it takes a lot to be really good… I can almost make the assumption that Mahomes probably sees a little inconsistency in discipline and habits than what he probably saw before.” (08:19)
• Max contends he wants to “see them dead and buried” before he’ll truly count them out, but both agree the magic seems punctured.

Notable Quote:

“That's a very, very, very like deflating for a Chiefs team that's been so dominant for so long—how they lost that. This season has been very, like, very bland.”
— Rich Paul (05:09)

Critical Segment:

• Is it time for the Chiefs to blow up their supporting cast? Would Mahomes ever want out (like an NBA star might)? Can the culture be revived as aging veterans and coaching questions mount?
  (06:52 – 15:00)

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2. NBA & NFL Star Power: Comparing Mahomes/Kelce to LeBron/Wade

Timestamps: 17:30 – 24:00

• The guys discuss the parallels between Mahomes/Kelce and LeBron/Dwyane Wade’s sunset in Miami—when your prime “co-star” declines, does the superstar stay or go?
• Contrasts NBA player “empowerment” with the NFL’s team-centric power structure; Mahomes, they argue, has far less impetus (and less ability) to demand out than an NBA star.

Notable Quote:

“The NFL player is not empowered the way the NBA player is, or so they don't think they are. The old tradition is it has to stay this way.”
— Rich Paul (12:38)

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Hot Take Moment:

Max floats: “If Mahomes ever left, Dallas would be the spot.”

• Rich, putting on his agent hat, agrees: “If for some reason there’s a change in Kansas City, those Mahomes jerseys in Dallas... do you know how fast this happens?” (22:27)
• Both joke about “hot take” media and how ESPN would have led with this, underscoring the irresistible draw of the Cowboys.

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3. The Lakers, LeBron, and Creating a True Championship Culture

Timestamps: 27:24 – 47:00

• The pair shift to NBA culture, dissecting what makes a “championship organization” vs. a team that’s merely won championships. Rich Paul argues for organizational depth, front-office layering, and consistent culture—citing Miami, San Antonio, and now OKC—as the blueprint.

• The hosts dissect the Lakers’ superstar-friendly culture, contrasting it with the heat’s rigid, foundational culture. Max asks pointedly if the Lakers “cater too much” to superstars.

• Max: “Are you saying the Lakers need to be more like Miami, less like Cleveland? ... We’re not so grateful to have you, you should be happy to be here too, and we’re going to use that leverage to fit you into our culture.”

  “No matter what, these things are what they are. ... The foundation of you as an organization should never change.”
  — Rich Paul (34:52)

JJ Redick’s Impact & LeBron’s Mindset Shift:

• Max highlights a recent Lakers/LeBron dynamic: After a bad look in a blowout loss, JJ Redick, as coach, is visibly upset and LeBron responds in the next game by making the right play.

• Rich sees this as evidence of both a maturing LeBron and a coach who can install accountability, possibly triggering positive culture change—“to be LeBron and be open-minded. To do what? Allow yourself to be reprimanded.” (39:53)

• Are the Lakers actually contenders? Rich is skeptical, citing depth and stylistic limitations, while Max presses on whether the current roster can withstand the West’s elite.

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4. Giannis, Lamar Jackson, and the Superstar Trade Question

Timestamps: 52:38 – 73:19

• Rich and Max argue that both Giannis Antetokounmpo and Lamar Jackson might be nearing the end with their teams—Milwaukee and Baltimore, respectively.
• For Giannis: “I think both Giannis and Lamar probably are heading towards a change of scenery or should be heading towards change of scenery.” (52:45)
• Rich advocates for a “partnerial” star exit, where the superstar honors what the team gave, and the team doesn’t get forced into a weak return.

“There's a way to be partnerial in exiting. There really is.”
— Rich Paul (53:38)

• On Giannis trades: Packages must include a high-character, high-talent young player and assets—Jalen Johnson (Atlanta) is Rich’s favorite realistic fit: “He’s from Milwaukee.” (56:45)
• Discussion highlights how hard it is to trade a superstar without sparking fan revolt—unless the team continues to win.

Lamar Jackson/Quarterback Talk:

• The merits and risks of a change for Lamar, with Atlanta named as an intriguing destination, especially given his unique skill set and what he might bring to a dormant franchise.

• Rich draws on personal agent experience and the differences between moving superstars in the NBA and NFL, explaining the importance of culture and how “not all organizations are created equal.” (69:22)

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5. NBA Cup & Organizational Incentives

Timestamps: 77:50 – 87:17

• Max and Rich offer contrasting views on the NBA Cup.
  • Max: Posits the idea is “better than nothing,” but that the Cup lacks real stakes for fans—“I don’t really care who wins.”
  • Rich: Argues for its value, especially for deep bench players and as a disruptor for fan and player engagement during the NFL-dominated part of the year, while still entertaining tweaks to the format.
• Max suggests a single-elimination, March Madness–style tournament would be more compelling but notes it still wouldn’t touch the title’s significance.
• Both agree the Cup isn’t quite resonant yet, as evidenced by not even being sure who won last year (Milwaukee, it turns out).

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6. Quick Hits & Closing Segments

Timestamps: 87:17 – 91:44

• Max talks the present woes of boxing, the impact of Zuffa Boxing, and the hope for the sport’s “glow up.”
• Rich plugs his upcoming signature shoe drop.
• The hosts banter about show branding, agent–media dynamics, and look ahead to future episodes, promising more candid, “hot take”–free discussion.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• "As long as you have Mahomes, you always have a chance. But I think it may be time to take Mahomes out the deck and then shuffle it."
  — Rich Paul (03:13)

• "Who fears the Chiefs? Normally teams go in and it's kind of like, we gotta play the Chiefs this Sunday..."
  — Rich Paul (05:47)

• "The NFL player is not empowered the way the NBA player is, or so they don't think they are."
  — Rich Paul (12:38)

• HOT TAKE: "If for some reason there’s a change in Kansas City, those Mahomes jerseys in Dallas... do you know how fast this happens?"
  — Rich Paul (22:27)

• "Just because you won a championship or several, that doesn't necessarily make you a championship organization."
  — Rich Paul (27:39)

• "Sometimes when you’re the prettiest girl in the room, you don’t necessarily do the detailed things."
  — Rich Paul (31:48)

• "With Giannis, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a star. Maybe you could. Maybe you could..." (on Bucks trade returns)
  — Rich Paul (55:00)

• "You have to be willing to tell your fan base why you’re doing it. You have to have a great plan… But all plans are great in theory."
  — Rich Paul (60:58)

• “Your stepmom is not going to treat you like your mom… when a team drafts you and you want to leave, sometimes you don’t realize how good you had it.”
  — Rich Paul (73:03, on player loyalty and risk of seeking greener pastures)

• "Are you saying the Lakers need to be more like Miami, less like Cleveland?"
  — Max Kellerman (32:09)

• "The NBA Cup is better than nothing. What you just suggested, I suspect, would be better than the NBA Cup. But... you're gonna have a champion at the end of the season and that's what fans care about."
  — Max Kellerman (82:52 – 83:59)

• "See, if I don't go with Rich [to the NBA Cup Finals in Vegas], then it's not the same level of... Okay, you know what, if the dates align? Yeah, we'll go!"
  — Max & Rich (84:32–84:38)

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Segment Guide (Select Timestamps)

• Chiefs/Mahomes Discussion: 03:00–17:30
• NBA vs NFL Player Power, Mahomes Star Model: 17:30–24:00
• Lakers, Culture, Organizational Build: 27:24–47:00
• Giannis & Lamar Jackson Trade Scenarios: 52:38–73:19
• NBA Cup & Tournament Incentive Debate: 77:50–87:17
• Boxing/Zuffa, Final Plugs & Banter: 87:17–91:44

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Tone & Style

Throughout, the tone is direct yet good-natured, brimming with industry knowledge and behind-the-curtain insight. Max plays the probing, occasionally skeptical sports media voice; Rich brings the player's and agent’s perspective, often emphasizing business realities and culture-building.

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Useful Takeaways

• The Chiefs are mortal, and Mahomes may now face pressures familiar to aging NBA superstars—though the NFL context is more team- and culture-centric.
• The Lakers’ struggle is partly cultural—balancing superstar-friendly practices with championship-winning discipline and development.
• Superstar trades (Giannis, Lamar) draw attention to the differences in pro sports cultures and the importance of organizational quality—and just how risky “chasing greener grass” really is.
• The NBA Cup, while an energy injection, still lacks the real stakes fans crave.

Anyone who missed the episode will walk away with a nuanced sense of the shifting power dynamics, business imperatives, and cultural stakes undergirding today’s biggest sports stories, along with signature jokes and hot takes only Rich Paul and Max Kellerman can deliver.

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[Note: All sponsorships, ads, intros/outros, and non-content sections were omitted.]

Transcript

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[B]

All right, Chiefs lead, right? We lead with the Chiefs. Chiefs, yeah. Right. We agree. Yeah.

[A]

Chiefs is opening.

[B]

Chiefs.

[A]

Lakers.

[B]

You want Lakers next, Go ahead. Why not?

[A]

Gotta go Lakers.

[B]

You know what you're gonna be accused of if we. But. Okay, fine. All right, Lamar. Oh, no, wait. Before Lakers. Bills. Bills. Right after the Chiefs.

[A]

Bills. Let's do Bills. Oh, let's do Bills.

[B]

So Chiefs, Bills, Lakers. Who do you like, Giannis or Lamar?

[A]

Giannis and Lamar together. Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

They're in the same boat, right?

[B]

Superstars who need to be traded. You want to talk about the NBA cup at all? Like, am I supposed to care about the NBA Cup?

[A]

I care about the NBA Cup.

[B]

Let's do it, Thunder, because you and me have been talking about the Thunder for the last year.

[A]

I'm going to put the Thunder.

[B]

They're a million and one.

[A]

I'm gonna put them over here because they're in a league of their own.

[B]

League of their own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like one of those Kirk Goldsberry charts where some crazy outlier. Let's take a look at this. That looks like a show. You got good handwriting. That looks like a show to me. Chiefs, Bills, Lakers. Giannis, Lamar. NBA Cup. Thunder.

[A]

The Thunder should. We gotta respect the Thunder a little bit more. They can't go after the NBA Cup.

[B]

The Thunder before the Cup.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's put them there. Good. That's a show.

[A]

That's a show. Let's do it.

[B]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenectic. So, Rich, I'm watching the Chiefs and I Didn't expect them to win. For the first time in the Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid era. That was a must win game, or so it seems that I expected them to lose because of the Texans defense. Right. That has not happened this whole era with the Chiefs.

[A]

That hasn't happened.

[B]

That's the first time last night.

[A]

Yeah, it was pretty sad. Honestly, I felt the same way. But I think long as you have Mahomes, obviously you always have a chance. But I think it may be time to take Mahomes out the deck and then shuffle it.

[B]

You mean shuffle the team?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Kelsey, by the way, even before we get to last night, see, I'm looking at the Broncos game. How many weeks ago was that now? Three weeks ago? Four weeks ago?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I want to say The Chiefs were at.500 and the Broncos were like 8 and 2. And I thought, here's a typical Chiefs game at this point in the season. The Chiefs look up and down, and they were. But they're not going to fall below.500 or to.500 against a team like the Broncos that doesn't really need the win. Like, that's the kind of point in the season where they start rolling. And when the Broncos won that game, I was like, oh, wait, this is a little different. This, like, it felt a little different. And last night, because. Because of what the Bills had done against the Bengals earlier in the day, it was like, this is the closest to the edge that the Chiefs have come. The only question for me is, is this, like, actually the end or because they have, you know, some small percent chance to. To still make the playoffs? Is it, like, what. Who was it Chappelle said about white people party to the edge of death? Remember this one? He's like, where edge. Like that. The Chiefs do this every year, and they get right up to the edge, and every year a little closer to the edge to make you think they can't do it. And since they're mathematically still alive, it's actually not over, Right. Or is this over?

[A]

No, I think it's over. And I think in addition to the Texans defense, we're missing a big point. The way they lost the super bowl was deflating. Yeah.

[B]

And I think that punctured the mystique.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That was. That was very, very, very like deflating for a Chiefs team that's been so dominant for so long, how they lost that. Then you come back. This season has been very, like, very bland.

[B]

It looked like they had it going before the Broncos game a little bit they had a couple wins, they blew out a couple bad teams. And it looked like, okay, here they come.

[A]

Well, anytime you have Mahomes, you're gonna look good on a Sunday. But we're talking about. Here's the other thing, too. Who fears the Chiefs?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Normally teams go in and it's kind of like, we gotta play the Chiefs this Sunday.

[B]

Dan, he's got decent protection on the old line. Like, it's like the receivers are dropping a lot of balls. Like. And maybe it's this simple. Maybe it's his favorite target.

[A]

Got old.

[B]

Is clearly not the same. So you don't have a Tyreek Kill, but that the guy who was moving the chains was always Kelsey.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And now you don't really have that reliably anymore. And now, whatever it is. Well, let's put it this way. I'm not convinced it's over for them still. I need to see them dead and buried before I actually write them off. But that was a bad one last night.

[A]

What makes you say that? It's because of the greats. It's because. Say what you want. Travis had two drops last night.

[B]

That's not critical points in the game, too.

[A]

That's not his normal play. But in a playoff game, if they get there, it's still very hard to bet against somebody that you've seen do it before.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's where I think you're gonna always have, like this.

[B]

All right, so if this were the NBA and the Chiefs were in the situation they're in. Right. It just looks like their supporting cast can't get it done anymore. Not that Mahomes has looked great either, by the way. But like, let's say it was the NBA. You have this singular star, like, he's.

[A]

Earned the right to not look great.

[B]

What happens in this off season?

[A]

What happens?

[B]

Yeah, if this was the NBA, what happens to the Chiefs in the off season?

[A]

I don't think it's because they've been so successful. I don't think Mahomes at the point where he's like, get me out of here type of. They. They've been so successful the last seven years. I think what happens in this off season is exactly what I said. They have to shuffle the deck. Outside of Mahomes, Andy Reid's still there, ownership group is still intact. So I think be prior to Mahomes saying he wants to go anywhere, if he ever says that, I think you really sit down at the end of the year and you say, okay, this course has ran. It's this Is ran his course.

[B]

But that's obviously not gonna happen.

[A]

It could happen. Yeah.

[B]

You think it'll happen in the NFL? Like, of course there's a different.

[A]

No, what I'm saying is this particular team in itself, the way it's structured.

[B]

You'Re gonna have to bring in new pieces.

[A]

Right. So what does that actually look like? And Mahomes is probably saying. Because if you look at that team, I think people underestimate the professionalism it takes to. To be a really good player and a really good team. And when I see the Chiefs, I'm not in the locker room, but I can almost make the assumption that Mahomes probably sees a little inconsistency in discipline and habits than what he probably saw before.

[B]

What gives you that impression? His body language on the field.

[A]

Not just his body language. Like some of the things that's taken place with some of the other players.

[B]

But it's tough because as I said, the guy who really has seemed to fall off is Kelce.

[A]

Yeah, but that's.

[B]

But he's hitting him in the hands, Rich. But you can't focus on third down and stuff. And he's just dropping.

[A]

But you can't focus on. Listen, the man was gonna retire last year.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. So he came back. The focus can't. That's one guy. The focus can't be only on Kelsey. Several guys drop passes. Lease if. If someone's going to drop a pass, he gets a pass to drop a pass. He's caught so many. You know.

[B]

But that's what I'm saying. When your safety valve. When the guy who bails you out.

[A]

But this is why he's a reshuffle where. Where's the next Kelsey? You know, like you have to really start to figure those things out. If you. Mahomes, if you want to stay in Kansas City, which I think he would. He's gotten so much equity there. He has ownership in the baseball team. He got the steakhouse and so on and so forth. And as a quarterback, unlike the NFL, although I think some quarterbacks should move, that team has. The only way you really want to move is if your team has not shown the capabilities to replenish, to make adjustments. Yeah, then the front office. But that hasn't been the case.

[B]

And also you have a great coach. You have one of the greatest coaches ever with.

[A]

That hasn't been the case. Now if they bring a new coaching, things change. Whatever. That's a different situation. But I don't think. I think we are a few steps removed from him saying if he ever said, I want to change the senior.

[B]

It's so interesting to me though that Tyreek leaves and it looks like receiver by committee and he's spreading it around and maybe this is better for the team and that's okay. Right. But it's Kelsey's decline that makes it look horrible. Like you could plot the chief's demise. Right. And say when Kelsey started to not be good, the Chiefs looked horrible.

[A]

Yeah, but so has Tyreek.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Without.

[B]

No, no, I'm saying, but like in terms of what the. What made the Chiefs work, it seemed like Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes could withstand the loss of Tyreek Hill and Andy Reid can game plan with the other receivers and Mahomes can spread it around, they could still get to the Super Bowl. But it's the decline of Travis Kelce that makes none of this work. And that's a. Like, you gotta go find out another Travis Kelce. That's hard.

[A]

But that position has always been that position to me in the, in the NFL. That tight end position is like having a great four man on in the NBA. Like, but that can do it.

[B]

All right?

[A]

If he needs to rebound, if he needs to pick and pop, can make the right reads. Cause when you think about the great tight ends, I mean, they made big plays and big games all the time. From a Tyreek's perspective, individually, he is a great receiver, talent off the chain. But he hasn't had the success, the team success, obviously. And in those situations, the grass ain't always. It's not always greener. And so yes, Kelce is not the same player he once was, but the man was going to retire, so that's fine. And he's done a hell of a job. But you unplug in a Tyreek and what are you really replacing it with? So it's been a lot of lot.

[B]

So in this case you think like. Because the reason I asked about if it was the NBA is it feels like when a superstar player in the NBA, when the franchise stops functioning the way it normally does, that they might want to get out of there, right? In the NFL, it doesn't really happen like that. If the guys.

[A]

Well, they. Well, I think that's the new NBA, right?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Because the old superstar player did. I think so what's the difference?

[B]

Why does that work? Why does it work that way?

[A]

The NFL? The NFL, the player. The NFL player is not empowered the way that the NBA player, or so they don't think they are. And the old tradition is it has to stay this way. And a lot of the NBA players got flack for this, starting with the obvious. Got flack, but who's the obvious? You have to understand and you have to want to. You have to want to be willing to take on that responsibility and accountability. I don't want to be here, especially if there's no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. It's so hard to win a championship. Nothing's going to guarantee you a championship. But if I can't even see the idea of competing at a high level consistently anymore, then you have to. You have to move. But the NFL player is not there yet.

[B]

The other thing, we don't think about coaches this way, but there's like a outer limit in terms of the ages of head coaches where they just get so much older than, like, let's say the rookie, right? You get to a certain age and the head coach is like 50 years older than the rookies coming in, and they. And they can't really relate to them any. You know, it's. It's. There's such a gap. It's like two generations removed, and they can't relate to them anymore. Now, I'm not saying Andy Reid is there because you're entitled to not make the AFC Championship game a year in your career like that, but you do wonder if you're Mahomes or if you're the Chiefs and you're taking a very sober look at the team. Your point is basically like, he's in a place that has been able to replenish through the draft. You take a defensive end at the end of the first round, but he turns out to be really good. And they seem to be able to mix and match and plug and play and keep it going. And the main thing in the NFL is you have the quarterback and the coach, and obviously you have that at the highest level. But. But how long can Andy Reid keep going like this? Right? And if you're Mahomes or if you're the Chiefs, does that have to cross your mind at a certain point? Like we have to start thinking about the next guy to put with Mahomes?

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah. Look, I think Mahomes is in a situation where he has to look at it. It's not only is he the quarterback of the Chiefs, does he see himself as a partner? I don't know his relationship with the ownership group, but if he sees himself as a partner, he does not have the pressure to win. He's won. Normally a superstar in that position they have a pressure to get over the hump, so that's kind of pushing them out the door wanting change as well. So he actually has a lot going for him to be patient in this situation. But, yeah, I think you have to have that conversation. And I think I like Andy Reid. I think he's always been, even though he's older, been around. He's probably coached more years than I've, than I've been alive. But I think he is relatable to guys. I think he's on the pulse a little bit. Where most guys his age probably, like.

[B]

Belichick, reached a point where it was too much.

[A]

Guys come in, not only do they come in at a young age, but they also come in very inexperienced in life that really messes with the locker room. Yeah, right. Because less coachable, less open minded, less willing to really listen and things like that. You know, you see the guy. It's a me thing a lot of times. And football has always been a we type of game. So I think dealing with all that, and I imagine Mahomes deals with all that as well. Not just Mahomes, but a lot of the veterans in these NFL locker rooms or in any locker room room. But I still think there's a few steps where Mahomes sits down and say, okay, let's look at this holistically. Coach, team, both sides of the ball. Cap, what's our, you know, financial flexibility, if we have any, you know, how are we approaching the draft? What are some of the holes we need to be filled? Because it's hard, man. It's hard depending on others in anything. So 53 man roster, you know, it's tough, but I think, I think the Chiefs will be back. I don't know if they will ever be back to the level that they once were, but I don't see them going to. Getting the first pick in the draft in a couple years. I don't see that.

[B]

All right, so we were talking about the similarities between Mahomes in the position he's in now with his crime partner, right. Travis Kelsey, and any similarities between that and the situation LeBron was in as Dwayne Wade was in decline. Right. In Miami, where the thing that you had been doing that was working ain't gonna work anymore in the NBA. It's much easier, especially since LeBron's come on the scene, for guys to be like, okay, I'm out, right? NFL, not so easy.

[A]

Yeah, that's. Let me see, the last year they made it to the Finals. LeBron and D. Wade and the Heat, they lost to the Spurs. I'm not sure Kansas City gets back, but I know what you're saying.

[B]

Well, I mean, that's like last year. Yeah, they got back last year. And by the way, going into that game, I could not believe people thought the Kansas City Chiefs were going to win that game. The Eagles have been beating the hell.

[A]

Out of everybody, but not like that. But to answer your question, I would say, You know, when in 14. I think everything had run its course. Right, right. And I think that d. Wade and LeBron had a relationship that was close enough to where they can have an honest conversation with each other.

[B]

Presumably, so do Mahomes and Kelce.

[A]

And I was gonna say Mahomes and Kelce definitely does. They're business partners and they've been there the whole time with each other. It's very similar. It's very similar. The difference is, I think that LeBron had an ideal spot. Cause he came from there and.

[B]

Cause he saw Kyrie Irving.

[A]

That too. Yeah. That's a reason. But also, that team drafted him. In this case, Mahomes has only ever played for the Chiefs and so has Travis Kelce. But in Mahomes case, it's like he doesn't really have a home away from Mahomes or Holmes, if that makes sense.

[B]

When I see a guy like Kelsey drop a pass, like last night, for example, the one that hit him in both hands. But here's the thing. Listen, I understand a guy losing his reflexes, losing this, losing that.

[A]

Do you know where Kelsey's from?

[B]

Kelsey, you don't forget how to catch.

[A]

Do you know where Travis Kelsey. What about from.

[B]

What about it?

[A]

He's from Cleveland.

[B]

I understand.

[A]

We're not.

[B]

So you're going to. You're going to. I love Travis Kelce. Who doesn't love Travis Kelce? I love Travis Kelce. I'm just saying.

[A]

You think he wanted to drop the pass?

[B]

What I'm saying is it's odd to me that a guy. I understand when your reflexes go right, when your legs go. But a guy who is shorthanded in critical situations, you don't forget how to catch. He's one of the great. You can argue he's the greatest tight end who ever lived. You can make that argument.

[A]

Okay, so next Sunday, when Travis Kelce has six catches for 105 yards, you're going to owe him an apology.

[B]

I'm not saying anything, like, against him. I am wondering how that focus on a drop. The reason is because I have a theory about this. When teams perform well in critical moments and when they don't. And it feels to me, and this goes across sports, that when a team or a player feels like they deserve it, they don't make as many mistakes. It's when they feel like they don't deserve it that that kind of stuff comes out.

[A]

You know where I want to see Mahomes?

[B]

Where? You don't like my theory? You want to see Mahomes in Dallas? You want Mahomes to switch teams?

[A]

I want to. If he. If he is to switch teams. First of all, this is the agent coming out of me now.

[B]

Okay, go ahead. You want a billion dollar brand.

[A]

Oh, my.

[B]

What if he could. If he can. Like, he has not looked very good recently.

[A]

Who?

[B]

Mahomes. He hasn't. He doesn't look like. It's hard to say. I know, because his. Say his tight end is dropping passes. He doesn't have like a Tyree Kill on the team. Even Rice times Chris Mahomes supposed to lead passes.

[A]

But yeah, I would want to see him in Dallas.

[B]

Sure. That's. By the way, you're getting the hang of this media stuff like that. That's. You know, and I think we'd lead all the. If we were on espn, they'd lead every show with that.

[A]

And I think he would be incredible. And I think.

[B]

Oh, you think they have some receivers.

[A]

And they're improving their defense. And I think if they were to do that, I would call Jerry and tell them, buy another helicopter, Jerry, you.

[B]

Know that if we would have needed to go, if we were doing a show, like if we were doing an ESPN show when we were doing the whiteboard in the beginning, if you come up with that, that leads the show. Patrick Mahomes should go to the Dallas Cowboys. Leads the show.

[A]

Well, it's gonna end this show. Patrick Mahomes. If I'm not telling you to leave, Patrick, the Hunt family, I'm not telling you to leave. But if for some reason there's a change in Kansas City, those Mahomes jerseys in Dallas, do you know how fast this happens?

[B]

I want you to consider this.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

When people talk about the hot take culture in sports, you were accusing me earlier of playing. You don't play fantasy basketball. You don't play.

[A]

You rubbed up.

[B]

Right? It takes one show where there's no pressure to have a hot take for you to come up with a scorching hot take by the end of the show. Playing fantasy football. This is your first show.

[A]

Max. I mean, what you want me to say, I just thought, I love it. I literally just was sitting here and I'm like, no, you're not wrong. Cause I was gonna ask you, where should Mahomes go?

[B]

Kansas City. He should stay put. You got Andy Reid, got everything he needs.

[A]

Because they are a championship organization.

[B]

Correct. But all I'm saying, irresistible.

[A]

If he was to leave Kansas City.

[B]

The number one, I would want to.

[A]

See him in Dallas.

[B]

Marquis, Texas marquee.

[A]

And I'm a Browns fan, by the way. I'm not a. I'm not. I'm a Browns fan.

[B]

In American sports history, the most glamour positions. Once upon a time with center fielder for the New York Yankees, I know.

[A]

Who else would want to see him in class.

[B]

Point guard for the Los Angeles Lakers, quarterback for the Dallas Cowboys is the number one glamour position in America.

[A]

And you know who else would love for him to be in Dallas?

[B]

Who's that?

[A]

Adidas. You know who else? Oakley.

[B]

Goodell. No. Jerry Jones would like it.

[A]

RG Would like it. Jerry would definitely. Jerry.

[B]

The problem is, if he went to Dallas, that would mean he's really at the end, right? Like, oh, he doesn't look the same.

[A]

No, no, no. I'm talking about now. He's nowhere near the end.

[B]

You would think not. But if he went to a place like Dallas. How old is Mahomes? Jets or someplace?

[A]

How old is Mahomes? 32.

[B]

Not even. Oh, he came into the league. He's 22. And then he didn't start his first year, so he's got to be 30.

[A]

How old is Aaron Rodgers?

[B]

100. So you got 80 years ahead or 70 years ahead of him.

[A]

I'm not saying, Pat. Should we play in fantasy football here?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But wow.

[B]

Do you make decisions like, okay, so clutch represents Jalen hurts. Do you make decisions about clients or give advice about clients and where they go based on that kind of thing? Based on the organizations that keep the Andy Reeds around.

[A]

Less in the NFL because it's, you know, then the NBA, but once you get to free agency. Yes, because there's a hold on, what.

[B]

Does this mean in the NFL? You say less because it's what?

[A]

Well, the NFL is. It's just. It's a 53 man roster. It's just a different business. Right. The draft. It's the draft. You have 11. You have 11 people on the field. You have to decide what's actually needed in what, you know, what position, et cetera.

[B]

There's more going on.

[A]

Yeah. It's just a different dynamic. And they play less years the risk. Just so many different things. In the NBA, obviously it's five guys, they play both sides of the ball, so you have a little bit more of a pulse, you know. But what I would say is the organization, there's such a difference between championship organizations and an organization that has won championships.

[B]

All right, hold on, because I know this is. Here comes the Lakers, right? Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. The race to the NFL playoffs is on, and the best way to game day is on. FanDuel. If you're a new customer, bet $5 and get 150 in bonus bets. If you win, FanDuel is your home for all your favorite NFL bets, from yards to touchdowns to who will win. Any play can be the play of the game. Visit FanDuel.com/gameover to get started. FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of the NFL, must be 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. First online real money wager only $5. First deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets, which expires seven days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See [e-mail] Gambling problem. Call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInCeneticUT Here comes the Lakers. You think about the Lakers?

[A]

Yeah, I'm not thinking about the Lakers. I'm saying just in general, but if you want to include the Lakers.

[B]

Yeah, let's talk about the Lakers.

[A]

But I'm just saying when you talk about Andy Reid as a winner, you want that guy in your locker room.

[B]

Because I've heard you say that about the Lakers. There's a difference between a championship organization.

[A]

Well, I would say that about a lot of teams. There's a. Just because you won a championship or several championships, that doesn't necessarily make you a championship organization. Championship organizations, put it this way. The Oklahoma City Thunder prior to winning a championship, if you were to ask me, is this a championship organization? And I would say yes, the only problem they have is they haven't won yet.

[B]

But Sam Presti and.

[A]

Yeah, well, just everything. The culture. You have to have depth in the front office. You have to have. You have to.

[B]

What do you mean, depth in the front office?

[A]

Meaning the front office is layered. Right. Because you have scouting, you have advanced scouting, you have your international aspect of it, you have your pro scouting, you have your college scouting, and you're looking at it from a place of how are we building this team? Right. You're managing assets, you're stockpiling draft capital and things of that nature. And you look up and it's like, boom. But while all. While doing that, you're establishing a culture, meaning it don't matter what name comes in here, you are going to do things the way the Miami Heat. The Miami Heat was another one. San Antonio is another one. I think the Lakers can trend towards that way now because they got the ownership. Well, the ownership. The new ownership can help in different ways, but prior to that, there was never a conversation of, this is a, you know, we're going to help you understand how to win a championship. Because this is a. This is a championship organization. Right. I think the Lakers probably didn't give themselves enough credit of being an organization that's won all those championships to say, hey, yeah, I know we, the purple and gold, we're in la, but we're going to establish certain things. Despite what your name is. Yeah. And it's good to be able to roll out the red carpet and things like that. But once you get up underneath that, there's just some things foundational that is never going to change.

[B]

That makes it sound like. Because obviously LeBron gets like. The Lakers seem to present this kind of inviting culture to attract superstars. Right. Look at the way we treated Kobe Bryant at the end. We paid him when he wasn't even good anymore and we took care of our own. Hey, LeBron, you might like to play here, but you as LeBron's agent and clutch Sports as his agent, you're saying, really? That's the way I hear that, you correct me if I'm wrong, is. And I don't mean to interview you on this, but I mean, you know, no, that's good. But you're saying they are catering too much to people like my client instead of insisting on doing things a certain way.

[A]

I'm saying when you are a team like the Lakers and others, I think there's several teams in the league. Sometimes when you are that attraction, right, you're in la, you're the purple and gold, the history, the legacy, all of that, there's a couple ways you can lean, but the details within the organization is what's to be invested in to create these foundational roots that no matter.

[B]

What you mean depth in the front office and this kind of stuff they.

[A]

Mentioned, not even just debt. I think a number of things you got, whether it's front office depth, whether it's development. Right. Which young players? Which. They've done a great job at developing young players. Austin's developed. You know, Kuz was another one. Caruso was another one. But I'm saying holistically, right? Sometimes when you're the prettiest girl in the room, you don't necessarily do the detailed things. Like you could just put your hair in a ponytail, put a white beater.

[B]

On some jeans, and Curse of the.

[A]

Gifted and go out. Right?

[B]

Yeah. Curse of the Gifted. If it's easier for you, you don't.

[A]

Work when you're not the prettiest girl in the room. You have to do all the little details OKC they're going to do, because, no offense, but where would you rather live?

[B]

Louisiana.

[A]

Exactly. So I just think that.

[B]

But wait, wait, hold on. Back up. Tell me. I want to focus on this for one second. Are you. So when you say culture, you have to establish a culture championship team. I'm saying there's a difference between Miami, San Antonio. I'm thinking of LeBron. Right? Let's name say what it is. I'm thinking of LeBron. In Miami. He had to do things a certain way because Pat Riley is not playing games, right? Once he leaves Miami, he goes to Cleveland. And he had great success in Cleveland, but he could do it more his way. It sounds to me like you're saying the Lakers need to be more like Miami and less like Cleveland. It sounds to me like you're saying we're not so grateful to have you. You should be happy to be here, too. And we're going to use that leverage to fit you into our culture, rather than just to cater to you.

[A]

Some of that, yes. But just to go back a little bit, LeBron was always a pro. So regardless what Miami was, they never had to act. There was never a thing of body fat, being out of shape, you know, none of that. None of those things.

[B]

You don't have to worry about that with LeBron.

[A]

That was never being on time, nothing. So I don't want to misconstrue that. Cause sometimes that get misconstrued, like, oh, he got here and whatever. But going back to mindset, I'm listening for that. But Pat Riley's mindset.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Pat Riley had a championship mindset. So the foundation. Right. It don't matter how upset you may be. It don't matter. We're doing this thing this way.

[B]

But that's so interesting to me, Rich, because what's underneath that is this is the way I'm hearing what you're saying is you're la. Everyone wants to be in la. You're the Lakers. You have all these championships. You don't have to kowtow to LeBron or whoever. Superstar. I'm not talking about professional, I don't mean baseline professionalism. Show up on time, work hard, don't get fat. Everyone knows LeBron's gonna be all over.

[A]

I don't think you have to kowtow.

[B]

To Luka or anybody. Right.

[A]

Or nobody. No, you're the Lakers.

[B]

But the reason I'm saying LeBron is because you as his rep, that makes your life easier in a way, if they give in to LeBron because that gives you more leverage.

[A]

No, no. That's a mass of Reps. Anybody. Luka, LeBron, Kobe, whomever. There's a world where, yes, of course, stars are going to get preferential treatment. That's one thing that has nothing to do with the foundation of you as an organization.

[B]

So stay right there.

[A]

No matter what. These things are what they are.

[B]

Okay? Wait. Don't change as his agent. If you are dealing with a team, let's say, the difference between dealing with Miami and Cleveland.

[A]

Are you saying sugarcoat things as an agent?

[B]

No, what I'm saying is. Are you saying is it harder to get what you want from. For your client from Miami and easier to get it from Cleveland, or does what you're talking about not really affect that?

[A]

No. What do. What do you think? I want some.

[B]

Who knows? Because usually, usually a superstar, you hear about the certain treatment that they'll get.

[A]

No, I want what certain treatment? I want all the money he deserves.

[B]

Right. Which he's going to get from any team anyway.

[A]

Any player. Right, right. Everything else you think I get. No, I want a guy to be on time. I want a guy to be professional. I want a guy to be coachable. I want a guy to give an effort night in and night out.

[B]

And you don't want different rules for your clients.

[A]

No.

[B]

Because some organizations will do that.

[A]

No. And when he's. This is what I'm saying. And when he's not, I don't need the organization to tell him. I'm going to tell him myself. I'll tell the organization, hey, that guy got beat back door. That should be the first thing you show in the film room.

[B]

The reason that I want that guy, the reason I think that you work in media is because in dealing with you through the years, you've managed to thread this needle where you use honesty as the way you conduct business. So that sounds credible to me, that you can Deal with the organization just by telling them the truth and telling your clients the truth, right?

[A]

Yes, absolutely. So I would say if there was room to grow, like for the Lakers, it would be in that department. Yes, we are the Lakers. And let's establish this culture. We've got 17 championships. Let's establish this culture of being a championship organization and having these pillars that don't stop you from being, having great service and rolling out the red carpet here and there and doing certain things. That's preferential, that's fine. Everyone's gonna do that. By the way you get, you know, you treat, you get treated how you treat other people, that goes no matter where you're at, so.

[B]

Or you would hope at least. Right? So that gets to the game the other night, right? It was be hard for me to imagine on a Pat Riley Eric Spoelstra team, you're getting blown out. Like I'm going back to the streak now of consecutive double digit score scoring games for LeBron. And the streak's on the line and they're getting blown out. Phoenix, right? Was it Phoenix? Was it the Phoenix game? There's already two games ago.

[A]

Yeah, I think I didn't watch the game. I think it was, yeah.

[B]

And J.J. redick is visibly mad, who, by the way, JJ has done an incredible job coaching this team because through injury to LeBron, to Luke, it doesn't.

[A]

Matter who it is, but do you think they're contenders?

[B]

We'll get to that in a second. You mean because playoffs are different than the regular season. But LeBron is joking around with dudes on the Phoenix bench and on the court. And as a fan, before I even see JJ's reaction, I'm thinking, lebron, what are you doing? That's a bad look. You're getting blown out and then you're still in the game even though you're getting blown out. And then you take a three to keep the streak alive in a blowout. Man, that's some bullshit. Right? And JJ's pissed. You can see he's pissed. But then in the very next game with, I think like that was a. The fact that JJ handled it this way, and maybe this bodes well for the Lakers and the culture you're talking about. He was clearly not happy with LeBron. And the very next game, with the streak still on the line, LeBron makes the right basketball play and passes it to Hachimura. And Hachimura buries the shot and they win the game. And that seemed to be. And then LeBron balled out in his next game. And that seemed to me you could maybe identify if this works out for the Lakers and that they at least make a little run in the playoffs, however it ends up. You could identify that moment where JJ is establishing a culture, even to LeBron James, and where LeBron makes amends. Because it felt to me, watching the Phoenix game, that he was making amends for the previous game. Not the Phoenix game, the next game, where he's making amends and passing the ball and ending the streak by making the right play to Hachimura, almost to make up for his behavior in the previous game.

[A]

Well, I don't know if it's to make up because I don't think he needs to make up. But I know what you're saying, it's two things. JJ was pissed, right? But this guy had been in the league for 23 years. Yeah. He knows if he did something that wasn't right. But that's not. Those two things aren't the most important thing in that situation. The most important thing in that situation is to be LeBron and be open minded. To do what? Allow yourself to be reprimanded.

[B]

That's disciplined and right.

[A]

Yeah. And now the next game, you make the. Which he got criticized for making that same play to Korver, to Danielle Marshall, to Mo Williams or whoever else. Right. For many years, same play. We can go back and look at the tape.

[B]

He didn't want to shoot it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, same play. I mean, I thought the streak was a little overrated anyway.

[B]

Then why is he taking a three at the end of a blowout? If it's overrated, why is he taking this streak? It seems like he didn't think it was. This is what it felt like. Rich, from where I'm sitting, you're the right guy to ask, but from where I'm sitting, it felt to me like LeBron realized after that, oh, shit, I fucked up. Like, I. He's. He keeps a streak alive. That's whatever. But it's like this very long streak. By shooting a three in a blowout at the end of a game, it felt intentional. And the very next game, you're telling me it doesn't. That calculus doesn't occur to him. He's not doing the calculation in his mind. Like, I gotta kinda.

[A]

Well, listen, he could reprimand himself. Of course I don't. Like I said, I wasn't watching that game. I didn't see that game. But yeah, whatever. It looked like and felt like, obviously the media talked about it. They didn't Talk about the right play. I'll tell you that I didn't see the guys that was whatever. But yeah, I think, look, those guys at that level, you know when you did something that probably.

[B]

So is it coincidence that JJ does that he makes the right play the next game, then he goes for what, 29 and whatever it was the other night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In a win.

[A]

I don't know if it's coincidence, but me personally, and he'll tell you this, I always like when he chooses efficiency over entertainment.

[B]

Okay, explain.

[A]

Efficient, efficient, focused basketball. Forget about it.

[B]

When did he choose? Well, first of all, before we even get to that 2012, let's back up for a second. Is JJ Redick by disciplining him, is that the, could that be the germ that spreads and makes the Lakers a championship organization as opposed to an organization that's won championships?

[A]

Yes, those you have. But you have to be build on all of those things. Build on it. You build.

[B]

How do you build? What's the next step?

[A]

As they come up.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

As they like every little thing, right? You, you, you, you have to start building these. Just like you build a house, you pour the foundation. You, if you pour that. Right.

[B]

But it's possible.

[A]

It's very possible. And it's also still possible to be that nice person that, that welcoming person that, you know, hey, let me make sure you have the right everything person. You two things can be true because.

[B]

I don't know, you can cater to the athlete a bit and also set a championship culture.

[A]

Okay, so, so granny did it. You went to grandma's house. You can't just run all over to jump on couches and all these different things.

[B]

But you feel loved.

[A]

You definitely feel loved. Because guess what?

[B]

You want grandma's house.

[A]

If she know what you wanted to eat and she may have cooked something else, she still made you what you wanted to eat.

[B]

Yeah, but the grandparents spoil you a little bit.

[A]

How long the Lakers been around?

[B]

Long time.

[A]

Right. So you should be spoiled.

[B]

Okay, so now, okay, so now you're getting to. So in order for that to happen and for LeBron to make the most of his ability with Luka running the show, now you're saying efficient LeBron versus the entertainer LeBron.

[A]

No, what I'm saying is yes, 75% efficient. You still need the showmanship.

[B]

Was he a showman in Miami?

[A]

Yeah, very much. Didn't you see him tackle the guy at halftime when he hit the half court shot?

[B]

But wasn't that an example of what you're talking about? Like that was LeBron worrying less about that stuff? And because he's in a Pat Riley, Eric Spoelstra culture, having to do things the right way primarily. And then when he got. In other words, when LeBron went from Miami to Cleveland, Same thing, same thing, same thing. Same efficient LeBron, not entertainer LeBron in.

[A]

Cleveland, well, he was a little bit more entertaining, but you also got it. But he went there with two championships, so it was a different. But he's always. Listen, you don't build the business and the brand and all those things and be the face of the league still.

[B]

I mean, for 20 years, for 20.

[A]

Plus years, without being entertaining. Like, there's a story that comes with that.

[B]

But when you say enter efficient LeBron, you're saying tilt more to that to being what, Karl Malone.

[A]

Plus, I'm saying square up to the basket, hand in the cookie jar, versus lean handing the popcorn. And I'm saying that you're older, you.

[B]

Need to be more efficient.

[A]

I've seen him make both shots. Yeah, I just like the one where you come off you squ. Shoulder square hand in a cookie jar. I like that.

[B]

One more if I agree. Like, if he would play, if he would be.

[A]

You would have 60,000.

[B]

Luka's pick and roll partner and not do too much.

[A]

Well, that's not on him. I mean, sitting in the corner is not going to do much, but yeah, I think, you know, in order. Like, I personally don't think the Lakers are good enough to be contenders right now. Not right now.

[B]

When you say contenders, what do you mean?

[A]

I don't think they have enough to get to the Western Conference final. I don't think they have enough to get to really contend from that perspective.

[B]

So OKC is in a class by themselves.

[A]

Very much so.

[B]

They won a million games last year. They won the title. They have one loss and what, 23 in one now. Can't keep up counting, right? Like, so it's crazy.

[A]

They're really good.

[B]

And I always thought, even last year, it's like, wait, they're this good and they're going to get Chet Holmgren at a certain point. Like, that's a lot. Right?

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

And. And here they are, they're rolling now. They're confident because they just won the championship. They're maturing, they're getting better. So, okay, put them aside for a second. You think the Lakers don't fit in with the rest of the pack? They got the second best record in the conference.

[A]

Yeah, but we've seen that before. That doesn't mean anything. I think when you look at. Look, we've seen it, right. We've seen when you have the talent up top that they have, those guys can win games, LeBron and Luka. But also Austin's playing and Austin Reeves. Absolutely, he's taking a step. But then things start to really. When you come to back half of the season where guys are really now, they have their conditioning, they're scouting you.

[B]

Different, they're preparing for you more. Yeah.

[A]

It's one thing then when you go into the playoffs, we seen last year, they ran into athleticism and length. They struggled. So when you look at it now, athleticism, length, shooting speed. Right. Because now can the Lakers play fast? I don't think so. And style of play, you can't. You know, that style of play is going to be very easy to guard.

[B]

But who did they not fit in with other than okc?

[A]

Well, I mean, Denver. Denver's. No, they're not a better team.

[B]

Houston.

[A]

Athletes, I don't.

[B]

I think they fit in with. Look, ideally Austin Reeves and who knows what happens by the playoffs. Is. Is Ginobili. Right. In an ideal world, on a championship team. On a championship team, he's the. He's the killer sixth man.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But he's not this.

[A]

But he's paid as a starter.

[B]

He's paid. I get it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it makes it harder.

[A]

Yeah, right. No, what I'm saying is Gnobly was paid as a starter. He was. Sure.

[B]

But in this day and age, if you're paid the way he's about to get paid as a starter, to make.

[A]

You a six man going back to championship organization versus an organization with championships, the Spurs.

[B]

On the spurs, he'd be the sixth man. Right. Especially back in the day, the spurs.

[A]

Made that decision and you know what Ginobi did? He embraced it.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And how many championships they win? Five.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's those type of decisions to be made. Again, not getting enamored with all the other things. But I just don't. I think there's a couple things to be made, changes to be made in the short and the long. In the short, I'm putting LeBron as the screener because no offense to Ayton or Jackson Hayes, they're just not the decision maker coming out of the pick and roll.

[B]

It makes it hard if you have Luka and LeBron in those rooms because it's. LeBron is overqualified for that role.

[A]

But now all you need in that case, we've seen it. The guy in a dunker spot and then the guy in the short corner. If they make shots then you very tough to beat. Now some teams may just. May just switch it but it depends on who's guarding. You have to have two really good defenders on your team in order to just switch a LeBron and Luka pick and roll.

[B]

So as as currently constructed, you don't love the Lakers chances?

[A]

No.

[B]

Is LeBron realistically a guy who could not be on the Lakers at the end of this year? No, he will be on the Lakers at the end of this year.

[A]

Yeah. Where's he going to go?

[B]

I mean there are New York comes to mind.

[A]

That's wishful thinking.

[B]

If they can't.

[A]

You're from New York.

[B]

If I mean the Knicks would love Giannis, right. Or someone like that. But the price tag for 100 year old guy making $50 million a year is a lot lower. And actually I think as a kid who grew up rooting for the Knicks, he's still in me somewhere. You know, I don't think the Knicks can win a championship is currently constructed either because Brunson's too small. Yes.

[A]

Yeah, he would of course but. But 29 other teams would say the same thing.

[B]

But they don't have the assets or the need quite. Or are in the position or in the market that makes sense for LeBron. Like there's. If the Knicks can't land a guy like Giannis, which let's see them do it. It's hard to do.

[A]

Very hard to do.

[B]

And they'd have to give up so much to get Giannis and you can give up less and get LeBron who really the Knicks just got a strike while. While the iron's hot. Right. Is there anyone in the east so good that if you put. If you took. I don't know, just say OG or it could be towns off the knicks and drop LeBron on that they would be that the Knicks would be overmatched against anyone in the East.

[A]

No, that makes the Knicks extremely, extremely strong.

[B]

But this is what I'm saying. But haven't won since I'm 52. I was born in 73 but in August. They haven't won since January of that year.

[A]

But the only way that would happen and could happen. First of all he has a no trade clause. So he would have to agree to that in the event he didn't and they just decided to trade him there.

[B]

But what do you think? Just between you and me, Rich, I know you wouldn't have any special insight into this but do you think he could talk LeBron or don't know anyone who could talk LeBron into waving a no trade clause to go to New York? Oh, New York.

[A]

I mean, listen, he definitely makes them better. I will, I will. I will give you that if you could stay healthy. I don't really play fantasy basketball.

[B]

Right.

[A]

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[A]

But he definitely makes him better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

All right. We said we were going to do Giannis and Lamar together. That's your idea. I think it's a good idea because.

[A]

Yeah, because they in the same boat.

[B]

How?

[A]

I think both Giannis and Lamar probably are heading towards the change of scenery or should be heading towards change scene.

[B]

Yeah, Giannis, it's pretty clearly gonna happen, right? If you stop following the team you're on on social media or whatever it was he did.

[A]

I love those things.

[B]

The team's not going anywhere and you're entering kind of the end of your prime.

[A]

Look, I think Giannis has deserved the right to go into the front office and say I want a change of senior right. I think the Milwaukee Bucks has done everything Giannis has asked him to do and deserve the right for Giannis to handle things in which they're not put in a situation where people know you want out. And so now we get 70 cent on the dollar.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's a way to be partnerial in exiting. There really is.

[B]

And do you think they will form a partnership in order to exit?

[A]

Well, that takes a number of things. Listen, most athletes have been getting what, all their life cheered. They never want to be booed, Never the boo of it all. Going into a front office. They're so reluctant to go into a front office and say these things, but it's business. So, hey, go in. You've won a championship. Hey, guys, I appreciate everything. I still feel special about the Bucks. You guys have done everything from, you know, Beaufort's brothers on the team. I'm pretty sure they allow him to.

[B]

Decide, make moves for guys that he.

[A]

Wanted, practice this and that, stay overnight, whatever he wants to do, which he's earned the right. But if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks, you also gotta look at it like it's time, too.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because there's a very. It's a very, very, very thin line of keeping a guy too long. Now, that's easy for me to say in my seat. Right? But when you in the front office, where. Where are we going to find another Giannis? The draft is a crapshoot. There's. There's very few, like, for sures in.

[B]

A draft, especially if you're not run by, like, Sam Presti, then you're less likely to hit in the draft.

[A]

I'm just saying, even. Even with Sam, like, you know, he. Yeah, but what I'm saying is, you know what Giannis is. You don't know what the next.

[B]

When I did Bill's podcast, he was thinking Trae Young and draft picks, basically no chance. Right? It can't get it done because they're not going to take Trae Young.

[A]

Bill did. I. First of all, I don't believe Bill said that. Don't Bill.

[B]

He said it. Trey Young, it was a package sent. The best player in the package that's coming to the Bucs is Trae Young. And then they have draft picks. One could be a top five pick, you know.

[A]

No, you can't. You can't, you can't. That's not right. No, with Giannis, it has to be. It doesn't necessarily have to be a star. Cause you're not getting a star back, per se. Maybe you could. Maybe you could.

[B]

Karl Anthony Townes.

[A]

Let me say, you're not getting a star back to the level of a yacht.

[B]

You're not getting an MVP caliber back.

[A]

Luka, you're not getting Jokic, you're not getting. Shay, you're not getting.

[B]

You might get an All Star.

[A]

You can get an All Star back. You can get an All Star back. If I'm the Bucks, I'm looking at young player, high character, high talent, high iq, assets, and maybe some, you know, ancillary guys that could.

[B]

The next Tyrese Maxey, before anyone knows quite how good he is.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

Who is that?

[A]

I mean, I'm calling Atlanta, right? I'm calling Atlanta. I'm calling Atlanta, and I want Jaylon Johnson.

[B]

See, that's what I'm thinking.

[A]

He's from Milwaukee.

[B]

If you got him in the trade, I could believe that could happen, but.

[A]

Because that's a guy who you can see, and I'm not just saying. By the way, you didn't even know that I represent Jalen Johnson, right? Correct. So I'm not Mr. Biased right now. I'm just giving you a real.

[B]

Because sometimes you will be Mr. Bias.

[A]

I'll be Mr. Bias.

[B]

Will you ever admit to being Mr. Bias?

[A]

I will admit to being Mr. Bias. Prior to. I would say, okay, I'm putting my Mr. Bias hat on.

[B]

Can we make rich a Mr. Bias at.

[A]

But this is not. This is not Mr. Bias. This is real basketball acumen.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

I'm calling Atlanta. I'm calling Cleveland.

[B]

All right.

[A]

You have to call San Antonio. Although I don't know if Giannis and Wemby works together.

[B]

Oh, I want to see that so bad.

[A]

I don't know if it works together.

[B]

I mean, David Robinson and Tim Duncan work together.

[A]

Different. Very different.

[B]

All right. But the game has changed, too.

[A]

I'm just saying. I'm calling. I don't know what you actually get from New York. I know everyone's saying New York, New York, New York, but I don't know what you actually get from New York. You can also call Brooklyn, who has a lot of draft picks, and you can also call okc. I'll call okc, too. Give me Jalen Williams. I don't. Again, I don't have the numbers and everything in front of me.

[B]

I'm just talking about Giannis to okc.

[A]

Hey, listen, if I'm the Bucs, why.

[B]

Even play the season?

[A]

Listen, if I'm the Bucks, I'm trying to get something back in draft capital, Right. These next few drafts, there's some.

[B]

You know, that's what's insane about Presti. He's got this team, and he's got assets to. It's insane.

[A]

He has an embarrassment of riches, an.

[B]

Embarrassment that's A good segment for this show, actually.

[A]

He has an embarrassment of riches.

[B]

Is that your first embarrassment of riches?

[A]

That's my first embarrassment of riches.

[B]

Your first embarrassment of riches is Sam Preston has got embarrassment. He does have an embarrassment if they wind up with. That's the problem with the NBA, though.

[A]

Well, he has the Sixers pick right outside of the top four, I believe.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

He has the Clippers. He has.

[B]

And he's got players.

[A]

He got players, but he has. It's two more teams that he has. But nevertheless, we talking about Giannis? I think the. Look, no one wants to trade a superstar, especially when that guy isn't being an asshole. And right now he's not.

[B]

And that city loves him, and he's the one guy they've ever had who stuck around and repped the city that way.

[A]

So you have to worry about. And not only that. See, people don't understand.

[B]

Well in years anyway.

[A]

That's the fan base. Right. You have to worry about the fan reaction, obviously, if you. Doc Rivers, you looking down your bench. Hell, I don't want Giannis to be missing the one guy that gives us an actual chance every night. But then you haven't even went to talk to the people on the business side.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The guy who's selling sponsorships and things of that nature. And he's locked in these brands because Giannis is here. So there's, you know, I know the people that play a lot of fantasy basketball is like, well, just trade and do this, do that.

[B]

That's what I like to talk about. I like to talk about that.

[A]

Components to it. And, you know, having these conversations, it's very hard to be a general manager, a president of a team, any team, for that matter.

[B]

You know what, though? Whenever people talk about that, I agree. If that guy puts you in a position to win championships, which is why I wouldn't trade him for, say, Trae Young. Right. Because what you're saying is we're not in a position to win championships anymore. However, you can trade a superstar, in my opinion, in any sport, if your team gets better and you start winning a lot. Because that's really what people care about.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, they get it confused. You're winning a lot with this guy. And so that makes the fan, that.

[A]

Makes it feel superstar and Shady just didn't know it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or maybe they did know it.

[B]

No, but I'm saying. I'm saying once the guys established himself as a superstar. Oh, my God. The fans would revolt if you ever traded him. Yeah. Unless you kept winning and Then they wouldn't care as much. Right. Like, if you trade Giannis and you could. Very clear. The Bucks aren't going anywhere, and you wind up with a situation where it's not so clear they're not going anywhere. They might be going somewhere. You have to be willing. The fans would be all right.

[A]

You have to be willing to tell your fan base why you're doing it. You have to have a great plan, obviously. But all plans are great to.

[B]

In theory, you know, so. Except for maybe AD For Lucas. So you said. Come on, man. Look at how it turned. The exact criticism that everyone made about that trade played out. Come on. Wait, Rich. Instead of. We'll do that another time. But Atlanta, potentially for Giannis. We mentioned Lamar Jackson. What about Lamar Jackson?

[A]

I think it's time for a change of scenery. Atlanta, Atlanta, Atlanta again.

[B]

See, I know that because we talk. But. But I know that you were going to say Atlanta, so Atlanta. I think everyone's going to Atlanta. Lamar, Giannis, everybody.

[A]

I'm just saying those are two different things. I think the assets to get back are in Atlanta for the Milwaukee Bucks, one of two teams. I think they.

[B]

But Lamar should go to Atlanta, you're saying?

[A]

I just like to see. First of all, again, Lamar. I want to see him somewhere like that. Yeah.

[B]

I think, like, what. What is it about Atlanta that you like for Lamar?

[A]

Well, first of all, they play indoors.

[B]

Okay. That's true. That'll help.

[A]

That'll help.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

They have Bijan Robinson coming out the backfield, which is.

[B]

They had Mike Vick once upon a time, and that's on people's minds, you know, like, it's just how it is.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that. And for Baltimore, they may, you know, you may need just a different style of play.

[B]

Yeah. It does feel like.

[A]

Because the AFC north, it's just a different. You know, I love Lamar as a player. I think he's dynamic. But I think sometimes a change of scenery is good for a guy who's.

[B]

Won MVPs like him. And this goes for Josh Allen, too. Like, Josh Allen's a guy who. It reminds me of Elway. Everyone was ready to call Elway the greatest quarterback ever, and he hadn't won any Super Bowls the very end of his career, when he wasn't the same anymore, they gave him a running back, and then he won Super Bowls, and that went kind of retroactively, justified, whatever. And thought about him, which was always just eyeball test. Oh, my God. Right. But. But, like, Josh Allen's a guy who has not been very deep in the playoffs ever. But the eyeball test is like, oh, my God. And Lamar Jackson, also not that deep in the playoffs, but has. Has done enough in the regular season to win MVPs. At a certain point, these guys got to start making playoff runs, like, runs.

[A]

Last year was tough for Lamar. Yeah, he makes the play. I mean. Yep, yep, you know, but again, it's just. It's a game of inches, man. But I just think.

[B]

But the inches seem to go certain guys way.

[A]

It could be very premature in terms of Lamar getting out of Baltimore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I think for both parties, just like I think for Yanu, I think.

[B]

Maybe it has run its course.

[A]

I think a change of scenery could be good.

[B]

See, I love playing fantasy basketball, football, anything. Why not?

[A]

In my position, there's relationships that you have genuine relationships. I think, you know, most people are trying to trade and barter. That's not that. I mean, I actually have a genuine relationship.

[B]

So, yeah, we had a relationship. Even when you were talking to a.

[A]

Lot of people in this space, you.

[B]

Know, the thing I like about that is I could trust your information that you weren't trying to position me. Like, you're an agent, you're looking out for your clients, but sometimes you're talking to someone and you better not run with it right away because you could get burnt. You know, here's what. Cause they're telling you stuff to position you. But I knew that would never be the case with you. You were just talking.

[A]

No, if you have it, you have it. I just want you to have it.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And the issue I have in today's industry is everyone's looking for clickbait, and everyone's looking just to say certain things. They don't have it right now. You know, the perception is, oh, well, you, this guy's agent, you're just going to want to know if, If. If he screwed up, he screwed up. If he's getting traded, he's getting traded. If he. Whatever. Whatever the case may be, that's what it is. Right? But I just want you to have it. Right? And I also want you to say, okay, this is what I heard. Give me some insight here. And then once you have all the information, then you can bake the cake, however you choose to bake it. Just have all the ingredients.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Sorry about that. But where do you see Lamar going?

[B]

I don't mind the idea of Atlanta. I was telling you, I think he dodged a bullet when the jets were pursuing Aaron Rodgers. I remember saying at the time on espn why are they pursuing Aaron Rodgers? At the time, it looked like the jets had a young, good nucleus of ascending players. Why would you pick someone up who clearly was not the same as he used to be versus the league MVP level player who is also seemingly ascending and much more there? 8 like that seems to be the.

[A]

Way that could have been a. Yeah.

[B]

But I think it's much more likely the jets ruined Lamar than Lamar saves the Jets.

[A]

Yes and no. Because first of all, you have to be willing to make that. I don't know. Again, we play in fans.

[B]

Rich, I don't know if you've heard about this, but there's a difference between a championship.

[A]

This is what I'm being.

[B]

And by the way, the jets are neither a championship team or a team that wins championships.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

They win champ. The championship of sucking is the Jets.

[A]

But here's what I'm saying. What starts you. You at least have to turn the car around to be able to go in that direction at some point. But getting a Lamar Jackson, talent wise, because. I don't know. Talent wise, I think when you're trying to build a championship organization, the talent has to come with more than just talent, though.

[B]

Does Lamar come with more than just talent?

[A]

I haven't spent enough time with him. I haven't spent enough time with him, but I would probably say. I would need to talk to some people in the locker room.

[B]

Here's the thing about Lamar, for me is his first playoff experience. He was a deer in headlights. I mean, he was like, overwhelmed, right? But he was so young. He was like. I remember, like, you know, Joe Burrow and Lamar, like the same age. Even though Lamar came out, what, 10 years before. Whatever it was, it was like a. Years before Joe Burrow because he was really a precocious player and. But so the first time he finds himself in the playoffs, he's horrible, horrible deer in headlights. But in the second half, he was a little bit better than he was in the first half. And then the next playoff appearance, he was better than in the first one. And in his next playoff appearance, he was kind of good. And I was thinking, oh, look at this. It's a tre. He's trending in the right direction. He has not taken the next step yet. I haven't seen the playoff games from Lamar where it's like, this dude is just a killer under pressure.

[A]

Is it just him?

[B]

Because, like, Jalen hurts. Whatever you want to say about the clutch client Jalen hurts is, oh, they hide him in the offense. He. He manages the game. Which is what you're supposed to do when the game is on the line. And in the biggest moments, he consistently over performs. Right. When you see a guy like that, you go, yeah, we may need a lot around him, but we can win championships. Lamar is a guy who can take less farther, but then maybe can't get you all the way over the hump. You know, he's got the coach. It's not like he doesn't have the coach.

[A]

Again, I think the maturation process of Lamar going to Baltimore, who I believe is a championship organization. Right, right. So if he was to leave Baltimore, he's leaving with that thing. Like I would always say, if I could choose where my player gets drafted, I want them to go to certain places because in my opinion, it puts extra years on their career.

[B]

Pittsburgh, Baltimore, whatever it is. In football, there are. There are established good culture places that.

[A]

Are always going to compete in basketball, too.

[B]

San Antonio.

[A]

Because when you go to these places, believe it or not, all organizations aren't created equal. Which I actually think the league should have a mandatory prerequisite, standardized level of all things. You have to be, as an organization across everything from.

[B]

You want to homogenize the NBA and NFL even more.

[A]

No, no, no. I'm talking about the NBA in this. I'm saying as an organization, it should be a threshold that you cannot come below across all things from medical staff.

[B]

Oh, oh, I see.

[A]

To, you know, cafeteria. All the way across. Because again, you know, it just. You can. It's not. All organizations are not created equal in that way.

[B]

Right. Who was it in the NBA? Everyone was getting hurt. Was it Phoenix about 10 years ago?

[A]

Phoenix used to have one of the.

[B]

Best men at the state. No, no. So it wasn't Phoenix. I'm trying to remember the NBA organization that everyone was getting hurt because they shared staff with, like the NFL team. It was New Orleans.

[A]

Oh, yeah, New Orleans. New Orleans does share. But like, again, it's one of those things where. You have to have these relationships and you have to have the ability to say to people, to teams, et cetera. Now, when you're a superstar, depending on what you care about, you can also help a team improve in those ways as well.

[B]

But you think Lamar could have had a ripple effect on the Jets? Potentially, yeah.

[A]

If he's taken what he's gotten in Baltimore and he gets to New York because of what he was able to see in Baltimore, he can actually identify what New York actually brings.

[B]

Some of that. Some of what LeBron brought back to Cleveland after Miami.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

A little of that pixie dust. It's not magic. It's a.

[A]

There's a. But if you're getting from college to the jets or whomever, you just want to go. You don't. I mean, what do I know? You don't. Unless you're coming from one of those major programs. My Ohio State Buckeyes or a Georgia or Alabama. You know, those are like the 33rd, 34th and 35th NFL team. That's not right.

[B]

But the more you talk about it, Giannis. Yes. Should be moved. Lamar should stay where he is.

[A]

Fair point. That's fair. Yeah.

[B]

Lamar should stay where he is.

[A]

Because you feel like. What?

[B]

Because what? You're right about Baltimore. The organization has shown over time, you have to see the difference between. Sometimes a certain regime is. Run its course in terms of coaching staff or players, as you said, you could overhaul. But if the. That's moving furniture. If the architecture is good in an organization, you can ride that out because the chances are that'll fix itself.

[A]

Okay, so you say that. Well, sometimes the player also has to recognize where he's at, too.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because if you go home and the people around you, you should do this, you should do that. If you read all the comments on social media, but if you don't recognize what you actually, actually have.

[B]

I mean, if you're saying that's why a change of scenery is sometimes good for the player, even if he's in a good organization and.

[A]

Or no. No. Sometimes a change of scenery is not good for the player. If you're. Giannis. Right.

[B]

You're making the opposite point.

[A]

I always say this. Your stepmom is not gonna treat you like your mom. She's not. If you got one time. And that front door gonna be locked, the side door gonna be locked, and if you had a key, the lock's gonna be changed.

[B]

But Mom's gonna leave the door open.

[A]

Mom's gonna come through the side door with the plate. She gonna throw. Mysteriously, the car keys was dropped in the driveway. She couldn't find the keys. You didn't use the car. Like, that's. This is what happens. You know who I said this to years ago? DeMarcus Cousins. He wanted to leave Sacramento so bad. And I said this to you. I love D.C. he's great. I'm like, I don't know, man.

[B]

And before this recent wave of bigs, he was like, the most skilled big you can see.

[A]

Yeah. But I'm just saying, when a team drafts you and I don't know how he feels about this, and he'll tell me when he see me. But it's just like, listen, man, your stepmom is not going to treat you like your mom, regardless of what your talent may be. So even in Giannis case, I get it. And I know you may want to leave, but you better if I'm you when I go to these teams. Now, what he needs to do when you get to these, go to New York's practice facility. Time. From the time it takes you to get from Manhattan to Westchester. Walk around, see if you like the parking, see if you like the cafeteria. And the chefs, the press, do they have strawberry jam versus grape jelly? You need to look at all these things. Go to all these different teams. Look at when you play in these arenas.

[B]

But that's what I mean. That's why, like, you're right about Baltimore versus.

[A]

You have to. Yeah.

[B]

All right, listen. Coming up, I want to. I want to get into this NBA cup thing.

[A]

I have to ask you something. Seriously.

[B]

Hold on. We're going to do the NBA Cup? I thought.

[A]

No, this. This can't wait. I really want to ask you for these reasons only.

[B]

Okay. I think I know what's coming.

[A]

Go ahead. No, but as you know, there's been a lot of things with a lot of people that I'm very close to and hosting.

[B]

Yeah, you seem to get along with everyone.

[A]

I get along with everyone. I'm a business guy, Max. End of the day, I'm very cordial with a guy that you had comments about the other day. I just want to know. So I learned you're the veteran in this case. I'm the rookie. I want to know what happened. I don't need to know everything. I just want to know what shouldn't I do in this position? Because you and I are.

[B]

Well, listen, first of all, I really don't have comments. Bill Simmons asked me direct question. I answered it. I even said it from my point of view. But I'll tell you what I told him in the beginning, which is Stephen A. Said things to me privately early on in the show after a first couple of episodes that I'm not gonna repeat publicly unless he says it's okay to repeat. Because I think that there's a presumption that this is between us and it wouldn't be for public consumption. Unless if he's like, go ahead, you can say whatever, then I would reveal what was said. The reason I bring that up is because things happened later on that I could tie back to that conversation. That makes me think oh, that's one of the things that went wrong. And I think largely the public understood that and has commented on it. Sometimes stuff that goes on behind the scenes, it's so kind of apparent to people, the dynamic that they can figure it out. And I think a lot of people did figure it out, but I heard his comments about me, and he said personally, he likes me and all that stuff, and I feel the same way. I have no personal animus to Stephen A. And I feel much as he does, if he needed a favor or something like that. And I understand that he was very. He guarded first take or his vision for it, very jealously because this is what he's known for. This is the main thing that, like, Stephen A. Is being paid a lot of money by ESPN essentially, to do first take. And that's what he's. That's his legacy. So he's very. You know, he protects that good.

[A]

So you have to protect that. I only wanted to know because I want to bring him on the show. So now that I know that I can.

[B]

I'm sure he.

[A]

Come on, we're all good. He will. I'm gonna call him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he's going to come on the show. Not yet, but I just wanted to make sure everything was all good. So good. Let's go. Yeah. We can move on.

[B]

Well, I think with between clutch and the ringer, and I think we have a pretty deep Rolodex in terms of. We can bring.

[A]

That's fair.

[B]

On our podcast. So. Okay. Can we talk about the NBA Cup?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I like the fact that Adam Silver tried it. Right. I like the fact that he's. And they're trying it. And they're. And this happened in baseball, too, Right. They're like the idiots like me who were stumping for saber metrics for so many decades, like, oh, why don't they do analytics? They finally did analytics, and it turns out that the kind of most efficient way to play a sport is often not consumer friendly. Right. So they played baseball by the numbers, and they figured it all out. And by the way, this happens in all sports. Like Dana White, as head of the ufc, was noticing that the highest form of fighting head to head is two guys locked in a position on the ground for 20 minutes, and people didn't like it. So he's like, okay, we're just gonna change the rules. We'll stand them up. So baseball did the same thing with their rules. There's no more stolen bases. Let's make the bags bigger. The shift is killing batting Averages, let's eliminate the shift. We'll just make it illegal. They did all kinds of stuff to improve the product. And similarly, it's not a rules change, but it's smart of Adam Silver to say, how do we. So the thing about the NBA that I really like, but it's also working against the league a little bit, is that's the one sport where you know who the best team is at the end of the year, they deserve to win. Football is one and done. If you lose. So the best team doesn't always win. The super bowl, the college tournament, same thing, right? That's one and done. Best team doesn't always win. That's why you get Cinderellas and upsets and stuff. Baseball is probabilistic. Fundamentally, best team doesn't always win because you can't have Judge or Ohtani come to the plate. 9. You can't run every play through them the way you can. You know, in the NBA, basketball as a sport, if you play a best of seven, you're going to find out. But the problem with that is it there's a little less unpredictability. Right. There's. And less volatility in terms of who wins. That's changed a little bit because the threes, if a team has an off night with threes, you can get wild. You know, one team blows another team out, the same series, very next game, the other team blows a team out that just blew them out. But by and large, you know who's going to win in the NBA. And halfway through the season or even less, you know what teams are actually good. And it kind of takes a little drama out because there's let. There's. There's. There's less of a chance for upsets. Right. So how this year, it's changing, As I said, I think the style of play has changed it. The. The kind of skill sets the players are bringing have changed it. But by and large, through the years, and I think to keep people interested, you know, before you get into the playoffs and to stop teams from tanking and stuff like that, you need to figure out ways. You need incentives to get players to care and fans to care, and the NBA cup attempts to do that. And it does make that part of the season more interesting. It's marginally more interesting, but it's not.

[A]

For me.

[B]

I think that's like the tip of the iceberg. And I don't, like. I don't really care who wins.

[A]

Yeah, but look, if you're the NBA, the NFL is basically having A game every day. Right, right. And it's at a time of the season which most people aren't necessarily all the way tuned in because of the NFL, because of college football. And so you have to.

[B]

Because the intensity of games at that time of the season is not like.

[A]

It'S going to be late, not going to be later. And so. But then the positive of the NBA cup for me is outside of the money, because don't think that that's not that guy on the end of the bench that wins and they don't even play, but they win another 500 grand. That goes a long way. Long as they doing the right thing with that. That goes a long way.

[B]

I'm happy for the. Happy for him, I'm talking about.

[A]

But I do think that the players, you know, once you get into it, I think they like it, you know.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Once you get into it, you can see they do. And I think over time, Max, you gotta think for the. For the viewer that has been watching the NBA for as many years, if you watch, of course, this is something new. I don't really care to see this, et cetera.

[B]

No, it's not that it's not think about. But it's not that it's something new. It's that it is a. I don't think it's clever enough. Like, I think it's an interesting attempt.

[A]

To make you different.

[B]

That's a good question. It's an interesting attempt to make me, the consumer, care more. I know the players care more. They get paid everything you just said at that point of the year. But I think it's not strong enough in the sense that I don't. Oh, they won. Who cares?

[A]

There's 30 NBA teams. Do you think they should take a March Madness type of approach over a span of two weeks and do that and that be the NBA cup that's.

[B]

Better than what they have. But let me just say.

[A]

Okay, so Adam's listening. Maybe he'll change.

[B]

Yeah, it's nothing like bad Adam Silver. I think he's good. Of course, what I'm saying is the NBA cup is better than nothing. What you just suggested, I suspect, would be better than the NBA Cup. But the problem I keep bumping into is, as a consumer is you're gonna have a champion at the end of the season. And that's what I care about. And that's actually the only thing I care about. Right. Like, I want to see these stars play and everything. But if that is the prize at the end of the season, I Think you need to figure out a way to tie that competition into that ultimate prize. Like there are two things the play that fans care about, Draft position, which is why. And teams. Because teams care about it. And that's why they were tanking because you can get good players. Draft position and the championship. And really even draft position is related to the championship because you want that draft pick. So eventually you can win a championship. They have to figure out a way to tie that into that. And if not, everything else is kind of. I'm not complaining. I'm really not. It's better than nothing, but you know, it's kissing across the cup.

[A]

I like the Cup. I'm not going to say I like all the. The floors because it's been little issues, but I like the Cup. I think it's something exciting for the league. But I also like the March Madness type of it. But I like the Cup. I think it's the Cup. I think it's been a good.

[B]

I mean, I don't dislike it. I just.

[A]

You know what you should do? You should go to Vegas when the four teams get there. That's actually pretty cool too.

[B]

Am I going with you?

[A]

I don't think I'm going this year.

[B]

See, if I don't go with Rich, then it's not the same level of.

[A]

Okay, you know what? What if the dates align? Yeah, we'll go.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah, it's just a. We'll go and come back saying that Vegas easy.

[B]

Yeah, Easy from la. Easy. Yeah. But so I'm not, I'm really not complaining about it. It's better than nothing. And I hear what you're saying, Max, if you don't have a better idea, then. But I'm not really. I'm just. I'm just stating the fact that I don't really care.

[A]

Let's just go. And then once we're there afterwards, then you can give me, you know, from.

[B]

The fans point of view, why do I care about who wins the Cup? So, like, think about how pathetic that is. That's the type of thing the Clippers would do, right? Like I used to make fun of them on LA radio.

[A]

Max, this is a non bashing NBA show.

[B]

Well, I can't. I'm not bashing the NBA. I'm bashing the Clippers.

[A]

I'm bashing the Cup. The Clippers are the NBA.

[B]

I'm not bash. I. I'm not bashing the cup, Adam. I'm not bashing the cup. I'm telling you my honest opinion, which is I am agreeing. It's better than nothing.

[A]

So how about this?

[B]

I admire the attempt at something, but Rich, when I say it's the kind of thing the Clippers would do is do you know how bad your organization is if you were to, like, celebrate, like, oh, look at that. Three consecutive years we won the NBA cup, like, no one gives a shit.

[A]

Okay, let me ask you this question. They put division title banners up. So is it embarrassing to have won a division title but never won a championship, but you got the banner up?

[B]

Yeah, a little bit. It's a little bit.

[A]

It's happened for years.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit. But what I'm saying is there are levels. So you want to hang championship banners. You want to hang conference championship banners. Okay, that's not a championship, but, man, you were one of the last two standing. And every level below that is a little more embarrassing. And. And even below, division winner is NBA Cup. And if your franchise is hanging those.

[A]

Up, who won NBA?

[B]

You got a lot of room in the rafters to hang.

[A]

Who won NBA cup last year?

[B]

That's a good question.

[A]

Milwaukee.

[B]

I don't remember. I don't remember.

[A]

I know the Lakers won the first year.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I think Milwaukee won last year.

[B]

Did Milwaukee win. Who knows? Did Milwaukee win the NBA cup last year? I'm talking to a super agent who. Like you, Milwaukee. And by the way, Simmons is here somewhere. Where'd Simmons go? The two people who follow sports more incessantly, like, with greater attention to detail than any two people in the world.

[A]

I think it must.

[B]

And I'm in a room full of these people, and no one knows who won the NBA cup last year.

[A]

I'm telling you, I think it was Milwaukee.

[B]

You think?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who won the NBA title last year?

[A]

The Thunder Boy.

[B]

That came right out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. The. The Milwaukee one. Thank you, Milwaukee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like, do we have to, like, check with research to see who won the NBA Cup?

[A]

I just wanted to make it right.

[B]

That's all. I'm just saying there's got to be a better way. Simmons will figure out. He'll have some nerds on the show, and they'll come up with some intricate thing that will make it so that teams don't tank and we care about the NBA Cup. Right? Like, I can't. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's Bill's job. I. I can't think of one.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, well, I like the cup, you don't. But until. But here's the thing.

[B]

It's just like.

[A]

Until we go. Yeah. And you experience it. Yep. Let's just.

[B]

All right. Leave it alone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Listen, let me tell you my. Let me tell you what I'm. What my hot take over the weekend or at least the thing. I don't even know if I was going to do it on the show, but let me. Let me do it on this show right now. I'm watching. There are pretty good fights on Lamont Roach and Pitbull Cruz fought to a draw.

[A]

I saw it.

[B]

It was an $80 pay per view between fighters the public has never heard of. Okay. The most interesting fighter on the card, Janabek Alumhalani, who I've been saying, hey, Crawford should fight him. Right?

[A]

You told me about this guy.

[B]

Yeah, he was busted with PEDs. He tested positive for PEDs. He's off the card. And then in the main event was a good fight, but. And then in the co main, Fulton, a fighter who was moving up in weight, even though he's moving up in weight, still missed weight by two pounds. So if a triple header, one of the fights fell out, I mean, Eris Landy, Lara, Phil still fought someone else, but alum Heleni did not fight him. So the guy. Because he. Because he tested positive for ped. So the most interesting guy off the card in the co main, one of the two fighters missed weight, so the fight went forward. But it was some bs unprofessional. And in the main event, it was a nice main event. Ended in a draw for 80 bucks for fighters no one's ever heard of in the general American public. Right after the main event for boxing, we flipped over to the ufc where Jan got revenge against Mirab Bantamweight fight in a great fight. The last pay per view for the ufc. So soon they're more accessible to people than ever. And the fight, the boxing match was good. The UFC fight was clearly better. So as a boxing fan and a guy who works in the industry, I'm looking at that and thinking, why can't boxing be more like that?

[A]

The good news is there's no Dana White.

[B]

Now there is Zufa boxing.

[A]

Now there is. That's true.

[B]

Zufa boxing starting next year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm involved, so I was very. At one point in my life, I would have been so depressed after a night like that. Like, that's a pretty good night of boxing. But this was bullshit and this was bullshit. And the main event was good, but it was 80 bucks. No one saw it. And the UFC just ate their lunch. And the UFC is about to get more accessible. Which, actually, the guy who was responsible for the UFC is now coming into boxing, and I'm excited about it. Yeah. So that's what I was thinking. The moral of the story is, not only can I promote something else I'm doing, because after all, this is our pod, but a situation that would have made me really upset and depressed about boxing once upon a time actually gives me hope in the near future.

[A]

Yeah, I'm excited for the boxing glow up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And since this is our box.

[B]

Needs a glow up.

[A]

Yeah. Boxing needs a glow up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And since this is our pot. You know, I have a shoe coming out December 10th.

[B]

Of course. I got my pair already. You sent it to your office? Sent it to me.

[A]

See what type of partner I am.

[B]

I do see.

[A]

My birthday's coming up too. The 16th.

[B]

All right, noted. By the way, and I know what's so fresh about those kicks is the logo.

[A]

That's David Creech. I cannot take the credit for that.

[B]

Because you look at the logo and you're like, what is that? Is that a line or something? And then you look harder, you go.

[A]

Oh, no, that guy is R. But.

[B]

It'S also a P. The same thing as an R and a P, depending.

[A]

On how you draw too much attention. Because he hasn't charged me.

[B]

Oh, sorry, that's just Edit this part out.

[A]

Yeah, that's just. Yeah, but he is good. Very good.

[B]

Was fun.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

That's it. We're doing this again in a day and a half.

[A]

I'll be here bright and early. Can we start a little earlier?

[B]

Yeah, we're gonna start.

[A]

I got a real job.

[B]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul on the Ringer. Catch us on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Did I say that right? I never did that at the end of it. Did I do that right?

[A]

Wait, do you get paid more because your name is first? I need to check the contract.

[B]

You know very well I'm not getting paid any more than you.

[A]

Okay. Okay, good. I just wanted to know, because your name was first, I was wondering, was that, like a thing?

[B]

Like a alphabetical M comes before?

[A]

Because this is the first time I was before out of the negotiation. Normally, I normally, you know. Yeah, you normally take a step back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

Well, there are things that went your way and things.

[A]

It's okay. I'll meet you at the end. It's fine.

[B]

Must be 21 and over. In present select states for Kansas, an affiliation with with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New.