Kendrick Perkins Talks LeBron Destinations, the Knicks Championship Being Questioned, and Why Rich Doesn't Text Perk Back | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode Summary: Kendrick Perkins Talks LeBron Destinations, the Knicks Championship Being Questioned, and Why Rich Doesn't Text Perk Back

Release Date: July 16, 2026
Guests: Kendrick Perkins
Hosts: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul
Podcast Network: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode features basketball analyst and former NBA champion Kendrick Perkins ("Perk") joining hosts Max Kellerman and Rich Paul for a deep dive into the most pressing NBA topics of the summer. The trio covers LeBron James’ free agency and possible destinations, debates the legitimacy of the New York Knicks' shocking playoff run and championship, unpacks the dynamics of championship culture, and explores the rapidly evolving NBA draft landscape. Laced with personal anecdotes, insider perspectives, and trademark humor, the episode also shines a light on their off-air friendship, roast sessions, and the evolving nature of NBA media—while Perk calls out Rich for ghosting him.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The LeBron James Decision: Still the NBA's Biggest Story

• The hosts reflect on how LeBron’s free agency remains the top headline, even in an offseason defined by blockbuster moves (e.g., Giannis to Miami, LaMelo joining the Timberwolves, Jaylen Brown to the Sixers).
• Max: “All these huge things are happening and yet LeBron's decision is actually the biggest headline. Still the biggest headline.” (01:54)
• Perk’s Take: The uniqueness and weight of this decision for LeBron, with Perkins emphasizing this is the first time LeBron truly seems undecided about his future, in contrast to his normally well-orchestrated moves. (17:23)
• Perk: “This is the first time while I honestly and really feel deep in my soul that Bron don't know where he wants to go, that he's actually weighing his options.” (17:34)

LeBron-to-Minnesota: The Best Basketball Fit?

• Perkins breaks down why Minnesota, with Anthony Edwards and LaMelo Ball, would be LeBron’s best basketball fit for immediate contention.
  • Perk: “The best fit for Bron is Minnesota. If you're talking about plugging them into a space where he could go now and compete for a title.” (19:49)
  • Benefits: Surrounded by defensive anchors (e.g., Gobert), opportunity to mold young stars, and perfect complementary supporting cast.
  • Max and Perk agree: LeBron’s presence could elevate Minnesota to title favorites overnight. (20:58–21:54)

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2. Inside the Media & NBA Information World

Texting Tensions: Why Rich Doesn't Text Perk Back

• Lighthearted banter about Rich Paul’s unreturned texts, highlighting the agent-insider relationship and off-air trust. (10:41–13:24)
  • Rich: “There’s so much speculation, so many conversations…and none of it is true. They don’t know!” (16:31)
  • Perk: Reiterates that most of their basketball convos aren’t even about LeBron—contrary to media assumptions. (15:03)

The Challenge of Sources & Leaks

• Perk addresses criticism about “unnamed sources,” defending the essential but often misunderstood confidentiality in media reporting. (18:46)
  • Perk: “If I give you all my sources, then I don’t have nobody to turn to.” (18:46)

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3. Organizational Culture: The Difference-maker in Contending Teams

• Rich and Perk discuss the difference between “a championship organization” and “an organization with championships.” (23:22)
  • Perk: “Body language is going to tell you everything you need to know about that locker room…if the coach actually has the attention in the ears of that locker room, if that locker room is policing themselves.” (24:24)
• Perkins uses the example of the Spurs (good culture) vs. the Cavs (questionable culture), highlighting that talent is not the only determining factor—chemistry, accountability, and leadership are essential.
• Max: Playoff adjustments are easier when roles and relationships are well-established; “Everyone knows on the team. Okay, this is how we’re doing it now. And they fell right into it…” (27:21–27:44)

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4. The Evolution of NBA Media & Player Voices

Respect for Journalists & the Rise of Player-Media

• Despite the surge in ex-player podcasts and shows, Perk stresses the value of seasoned journalists and how entering the media has shifted his own perspective.
  • Perk: “I got a different level of respect for guys like Brian Windhorst. He ain’t just pulling stuff out his ass.” (31:12)
• He shares a story about Lou Williams transitioning to media and grappling with criticism he once dished out to others, underscoring the demands of fairness and transparency. (32:32–33:45)
• Max and Perk agree: TV “realness” is what fans want; “Don’t give me this TV answer. Give me the answer that’s real.” (34:24)

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5. Knicks’ Championship Run: Skepticism and Justification

• Max and Perk marvel at the Knicks’ playoff dominance, multiple historic comebacks, and Jalen Brunson’s transformation into a clutch superstar.
  • Max: “No team ever…outscored their opponents by more than the Knicks. On the other hand, they also had all of the best comebacks…So they’re both the most dominant team for a stretch…and they’re the comeback kids in the playoffs.” (35:03)
• Perk: “Because Jalen Brunson proves so many people wrong. That’s why. It’s all about Big Body Brunson.” (36:33)
  • Perk’s take: Brunson is the best player in the East (if not the league) over the past three years and his Finals run “ranks top 20 of all time.” (37:47)

The Nova Knicks & Team Chemistry

• Discussion of Villanova players (Brunson, DiVincenzo, etc.), their shared background, and how real chemistry—not just talent stacking—powers winning. (43:20)

The Case for Craftiness

• Rich: “Whatever you felt like he was lacking, he made that up with IQ and craftiness.” (41:35)
• Max: “He has that thing that Kobe Bryant had…he knows there’s no one who works harder than me than this.” (41:38)

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6. The 2026 NBA Draft: Talent, Trends & Future Stars

• The panel analyzes the current draft and the ways NIL (Name, Image, Likeness) is shifting the draft pool.
  • Perk: “What it showed us is that this is why teams or the NBA were willing to move on from quote-unquote franchise guys. And it’s gonna continue to happen.” (47:36)
• Extensive discussion on prospects like Caleb Wilson (compared to KG), Darian Peterson (“floor is Devin Booker”), Braden Burry, Koa Peat, and others.
  • Rich: “When a man has played for the USA team for four years and then went and won four straight championships, I want that man on my team.” (48:53)
• Summer league trends: More players with mature games and team play, possibly because NIL holds more prospects in college for longer. (60:22)
• Perk: “Some college players need to go the full four-five hundred—they do because they’re not going to be good pros.” (71:09)

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7. Contracts, Value, and Agent Wars

Maximum Contracts & Player Value

• The hosts and Perk debate if too many players are maxed out in a salary cap structure, and whether “numbers” really tell the story in the modern NBA. (79:30–80:08)
  • Rich: “Your value is what’s negotiated. You can’t put a price on something. If you negotiated it, then that’s the value.”
  • Perk: “It’s called career earnings, not year earnings—don’t leave the ‘cu’ out of it!” (85:18)

Navigating the Changing Draft

• Rich and Perk discuss the delicate balance of entering the draft versus staying in college for a bigger NIL payday—but possibly risking long-term NBA position and role. (65:39–71:09)
  • Rich: “I don’t care about where you go in the draft. I care about the right fit.” (67:54)

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8. Anthony Davis’ Next Chapter & Player Reputation

• Perk advocates for AD to accept a lead role in Washington, predicting he can still be a dominant, MVP-caliber big.
  • Perk: “Anthony Davis—still is a 25 and 12, two block guy a night. He needs to embrace Washington, make that his home, get that contract extension and go show the world who the fuck he is. I still believe in AD.” (86:26)
• Max and Rich praise AD’s skill level and professionalism, emphasizing his unique versatility for a big man.
  • Rich: “He has it all. He has everything. He’s another one with a wardrobe…but a big.” (89:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Perk on Naming:
  “Big-body Brunson. People was like, man, what was you thinking when you started calling them Big Body Brunson? I was like, you obviously don’t watch him play.” (37:47)

• Rich on The Agency Business:
  “It’s called career earnings, not year earnings.” (85:18)

• Max on Analytics Debate:
  “Modern analytics is saying that’s not actually the best way to evaluate players…Here are some new numbers that we’re less familiar with…they give you a more accurate reflection.” (80:51)

• Perk on Authenticity in Media:
  “You have to be fair. You can’t straddle the fence, and you can’t be pro-player…But if they’re doing good, you have to give them their flowers.” (32:48)

• Rich on Choosing Fit Over Pick:
  “You want to get to the right team. And if you can get to the right fit, you can make it from there.” (67:47)

• Perk on NBA Bigs:
  “Anthony Davis…is the most skilled, most versatile big that I’ve ever seen. Playmaker.” (89:16)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• LeBron’s Free Agency Outlook: 01:54, 17:23, 19:49
• Agent-Insider Friendship/Beef: 10:41–13:24
• Championship Organizations vs. Organizations with Championships: 23:22–24:24
• Knicks Championship Debate and Brunson's Journey: 35:03–38:57
• Draft Analysis (Caleb Wilson, Peterson, Koa Peat, etc.): 43:47–54:34
• NIL’s Impact on Draft & Player Development: 60:22–71:09
• Debate on Max Contracts and Analytics: 79:30–80:08
• AD’s Next Chapter: 86:26–91:02

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Tone & Language

• The episode is marked by camaraderie and humor, with plenty of ribbing (especially about texting habits and personal backstories).
• The conversation is candid—honest disagreements, in-the-know agent talk, and NBA war stories abound.
• The presentation blends sharp basketball X’s and O’s analysis with real-life agent and player perspectives, making it accessible and entertaining for casual and hardcore NBA fans alike.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its blend of insider knowledge, basketball philosophy, and genuine chemistry between the hosts and Perk. From LeBron's seismic free agency to the inner workings of basketball organizations, and the evolving future of player pathways through NIL and the draft, listeners gain unfiltered insights into the state—and direction—of the NBA. The show’s conversations about media evolution, organizational culture, and player valuation are especially valuable for anyone interested in the intersection of journalism, business, and basketball.

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For More

• Contact the podcast: [e-mail]
• Voicemail: 424-240-8341

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(Commercials, opening banter, and closing formalities omitted; all material here is focused on the main content and insights of the episode.)

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Rich, are you texting Tyrese Halliburton right now?

[A]

No, I'm texting Tyrese Maxey because.

[B]

Oh, well, you are texting Tyrese. What are the odds? Halliburton? What is. I couldn't. Sometimes people send out tweets and I'm like, am I. Why am I lost?

[A]

What did he send out?

[B]

He said he was telling. He added King James like it's time.

[A]

Oh, they have the. The mind the game pot tomorrow at Fanatics Fest. Oh. Oh.

[B]

I was thinking he was. Had something to do with the decision and this and that and.

[A]

Oh, God. Oh, man. You're sick, Max.

[B]

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I think it's a big deal. I think, matter of fact, who I think it was. We're. We're about to talk to Kendrick Perkins. I. I think it was Perk who

[A]

said Perk will be. This is going to be exciting. I'm excited to talk to Perk.

[B]

He made a point that I was saying to you the other day, too, that I like Perk because we're on the same wavelength about a lot of stuff, among other things. But that mad dog was arguing with him about LeBron's decision. No one cares and this and that. And Perk made the point that this is an off season where Giannis got traded to Pat riley. Right when LaMelo Ball's joining Ant, where Jaylen Brown goes from the Celtics to the Sixers of all Teams right in your division. Like all these huge things are happening and yet LeBron's decision's actually the biggest headline. Still the biggest headline. Perkstead, I saw him on a clip which is all. I have no attention span like everyone else. I just get all my information from. But, but like I was like, exactly right. Still the biggest news story in the NBA.

[A]

Sometimes people just blur stuff out. You can't listen to half of these people, man. Like, no one cares. What no one cares about is what a lot of these people think. That's what no one cares about. But I, I stop. It gets to the point to where you just have to stop, listen, just stop even tuning into some of the stuff that these people say. It's not even. It's. It's gotten to the point to where you understand that they're going to say something that makes absolute, absolutely no sense. So. But I always like it don't make sense of it.

[B]

Like people like Mad Dog, for example, he has his point of view. Whether it's popular or not, he is going to say it like, you know that there. I like that Perk disagreed. I thought Perk made a good point.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't have to agree with everything. I personally don't mind people having their opinion and it doesn't have to be one sided at all. But there are some things where people say that you can tell. It's just like, okay, you're trying to get clicks. I do not think that's Magda. I actually like Magda. I think he's Mad Dog. I think he's hilarious.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

Especially when he goes to. When he goes way back and, and, and like Stephen and those guys. Like, oh my God. I think that's the funniest thing ever. But yeah, I mean, it's LeBron, man. Like nothing surprised me with LeBron and, and he's still a huge, huge commodity in the NBA. I guess not even at 45. Just between you and me, where's he going? I'm so glad we're not talking about that. You know, we need a break. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, just let things.

[B]

Kendrick Perkins is the right dude to take a break with.

[A]

He is, he is. You know what? Cause I, I need to make Perk smell my cologne, man. Because we. I got a big issue with Perk.

[B]

You gotta, you got some. Oh yeah, you know. Yeah, he was, he was. He out loud. He outed you on air. He said that you're blowing up his phone all the time. As soon as he needs some Info from you. Two days go by, no return call.

[A]

Yeah, but. But it would be different if the man asked me. Text me and say, yo, Rich, you good? I haven't heard from you. Normally. That's not like you, Perk. I've been traveling.

[C]

I'm.

[A]

This. I'm. He was calling me. I was in transit going to London.

[B]

All right, listen, let's. Let's bring him on. It's time. It's time to bring. But every show.

[A]

Every show, I should sue him.

[B]

Listen, every show.

[A]

Defamation of character. That's what I should do.

[B]

Every show I've ever done when he's been at espn, when I was at espn, if they asked me, who do you want? It's always like, if it's basketball Perk around, every time he came on the show, I'd have to start by being like, hold on, you're not mean mugging me as soon as we come on? You just got on air.

[A]

No, I'm. Listen, I'm going to tell you what's going to happen. I'm going to tell you what's going to happen next. Because, see, he. He Perk and I had a relationship for over. Definitely over 20 years.

[B]

Long time.

[A]

He had no kids. He had a crush on his wife right now, but she didn't want to have anything to do with him.

[B]

He had to beg, you have a beard still.

[A]

He didn't have no beer. He was a baby face. Gangster. Baby. Yeah. He didn't have no beard. He was Baby Face Fenster. So what happened was he and I, once he got into the media part of it, you know, you would talk about different things, and we really developed a whole nother report. We always had a great relationship. But it's interesting. He won't. He will not be frowning when he get on because he's gonna laugh first and foremost, because when we talk to each other, we laugh more than anything. Cause he's crazy and I say crazy stuff to him. And it's just. We have a lot of fun. We do have a lot of fun. I think. I think it'll be a good show. I wonder what he will. He's going to talk. I know he's going to talk about certain things. I don't know.

[B]

I got.

[A]

I got to. I got to figure this.

[B]

Spence. Let's bring them in.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Game over With Max Kellerman and Richard Paul.

[A]

Game [e-mail] we have Kendrick Perkins joining us today. Big perk.

[B]

Big perk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

NBA champion.

[A]

Yeah. NBA champion. And now he's doing a phenomenal job on espn.

[B]

Yes, he is.

[A]

He made snl, which we got to talk to him about that because that was. That was crazy. Just. And just a good dude. So I'm excited to hear about it. I think Perk has some interesting takes. He definitely has some. Some interesting outlooks on certain things.

[B]

Kendrick Perkins will keep it a buck.

[A]

No, he's going to do that.

[B]

As I tell everyone, kids, keep it 90. Give yourself some wiggle room. But Perk keeps it a buck.

[A]

Yeah, no, he's going to do that. So.

[B]

Okay, let's get Kendra Perkins. Ladies and gentlemen, Listen, Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. And look who is showing up today.

[A]

My guy, Perk. Big Perk Mac. I know.

[B]

Do you see the look on his face right now? Laughing. Do you know that's the first show he's ever been on where he didn't come on mean mugging in his whole career?

[A]

Because it's me, Max, and it's you. Trust me. Here's the thing. I've. No, I stopped counting the years when I met Perk. He had no kids and no wife. Just put it this way. That's all I would tell you. He had no kids, no wife. And guess what? He also didn't have that big bankroll he got now.

[B]

No.

[C]

No.

[B]

What else? Know what else he didn't have? Perk. How do you feel? Let's. I want to start off like this

[A]

family in Texas to know Perk is getting a real bag and his number might have changed, but you can get it. Get it from. What's our cousin down in. In Beaumont, Perk that got his number. Listen.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Number. Yeah.

[C]

He.

[A]

He'll pick up. Trust me. Text him. And if you ask him for less than. Just don't go over the 500 mark. If you stay at 500 below, you getting it right away. I'm telling you right now. I know it.

[B]

Perk.

[C]

What?

[B]

Perk. I haven't. You and I have. We've talked, but I haven't seen you in a minute. You got parodied on snl. Like, that is a level of fame in America. That is a level of. Because for people to understand the humor they have, it means that people assume that you're in the consciousness in popular culture. What? Did you. Did anyone contact you ahead of time? Hey, we're gonna do this. Or did you just hear, like, see it on reels the next day? Or did you. How'd that happen?

[C]

No, no, I just woke up. I woke up. I saw it And I was like, damn. I made. I made snl. Like, made it twice, though.

[B]

Yeah, it's a great skit, too. It's not like it's average.

[A]

It's great.

[C]

And by the way, shout out to Keenan because.

[B]

Hilarious.

[C]

A lot of people didn't try to, you know, impersonate me. He was on point. He was on point from top to bottom. He could have cleaned up his. He could have cleaned up his beard a little bit. You know what I'm saying? I'm a little bit more handsome than what he. What he did on the stage. But, hey, I was like, damn.

[B]

But Keenan's an SNL legend. And I got to tell you the truth, I think that might be his most iconic character that he's done.

[A]

He's had some really good ones.

[B]

He has, but I think that that one's my favorite at least.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. No, what do you say?

[B]

He had to stand on a ladder to comb his beard. I forgot what he said, but I was crying.

[A]

No, man, Perk has. Perk has done an unbelievable job. And look, it's so funny that people think when you say something positive about Clutch Sports Group or whatever, like you like that we're paying people to say these things, which is totally false. And Perk does not hold any punches. We have had text trades back and forth to the point to where we give each other three days. I'm not talking for three days, Perk, you on timeout. He's like, well, so what? You on time out, too? I'll see you in three days. Okay.

[B]

He talks about that on tv, though.

[A]

No, that's okay.

[B]

Wait, you know what? Now that you two are here, Perk, your beef with Rich was that he. That. That what? You always pick up the phone and then you don't hear for him for two days.

[A]

Oh, no, no, no. See, yeah, that. That he was out of line. Go ahead.

[C]

Hold on. No, no, no, I wasn't out of line.

[A]

My beef, the name calling was out of line because you. We play like that, we play like that. We play like that.

[C]

No, but you actually said that about yourself. You know what I'm saying? You said, one day we was on one day. One day we was on the phone and you said, well, whoever. Whoever would imagine old big head, snotty nose Rich. And you named your street name from Cleveland, Ohio. You name your street.

[A]

Yeah, but you wasn't supposed to take that to the air, Perkins.

[C]

All right, that's my bad. We better than that. You know, one thing about it, us dark skinned brothers gotta Stick together, Max, here it is. Yeah. This is the one thing that I had with Rich while I called him out.

[A]

All right?

[C]

Now, him and I, we text back and forth, we talk basketball all day long. Whether we agree or disagree. I felt some type of way, you know what I mean? Because over extended period of time, over like three days, I'm, I'm hearing all these sources and these, this stuff is dropping about Braun, and I'm like, well, I know I'm not an insider, but we're approaching free agency.

[A]

You are insider with me.

[C]

No, no, no. I'm an analyst. I'm an analyst.

[A]

Okay, yeah, you have inside. You have insider.

[B]

You got insider status with Rich is what he's saying.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, but, but I, but. And I'm like, well, damn, I'm trying to hit my boy up to see just something. I'm not trying to. Getting all into where Braun is going and all this. I just needed some other things. Like I needed to see the, you know, I was calling to ask him, did the relationship between Braun take a. And the Lakers take a turn? Like, where did it go south? Or was it bad blood? Was it bad energy before I went on air? You know what I mean? That's what I was trying to do. You know what I'm saying? That's what I was trying to get from.

[A]

But the issue was he was calling me at a time where I was in London and I was in transit. So he might have called me, remember, post draft flight London, different time zones. So we was missing each other. Normally we on. We on. We.

[B]

Oh, I see what you're saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

By the time you get this perk that will legit sometimes happen where. Especially if your phone is blowing up and you got a million messages and you see someone calling, called, now it's not lit up on your phone anymore. You see a text and you're like, oh, that's buried under a hundred texts now when you're reminded and, and he's

[A]

all the way off the air. Whatever he was probably trying to do or get information for, he can't even use it at this point because the time, you know, it's a timing thing with these type of things. And he's. No, I'm not going to give him. I'm not going to give him any information that I don't want to give him. But if he's trying to gain context of something that is important.

[B]

Let me ask you this point. Let me. Rich, I got a question for you about this.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Do you.

[B]

So sometimes I Have some information. Right, right. And I know, for example, I could trust you.

[A]

Yes, but.

[B]

But I might think, but the fewer people I tell, then there's never a problem. Like sometimes you might get information for someone. You would never do them dirty. But maybe you slipped up and said something that led someone on to something. You didn't even mean to do it. So you just know to avoid problems, just keep it tight. And I imagine with someone like LeBron, who's the biggest sports star on the planet earth and clearly your biggest client, cuz he'd be anyone's biggest client if there's some information you have to keep close to the vest. The fewer people you tell, the better. Was that going on with Perk at that moment?

[A]

No, not at all. I was just missing his call. Like, Perk and I go back too many years and he know if I say something to him, I don't have to worry about him saying something that he know I don't want to have said. I don't. We don't even. By the way, that is understood. It don't even have to be explained.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He knows in the, in, in, like in my seriousness. Okay, that's not for the air.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I don't even. I've never had to say to him, perk, that's not for the air. He's instantly picking up what I'm putting down. That's number one.

[C]

And Max, and Max, you got. And I'll tell you this, Rich could verify this. I've never called Rich to actually put him in that position to give me information like that. Like I've never called Rich. And I'll text them throughout this whole process and say, hey, say what? Brian going like, I never. Because I don't want to know. And I would never put him in that position. I always, I'm gonna give my opinions, but a lot of conversations that Rich and I have don't even have anything to do with Braun or his clients right now. A lot of, A lot of conversations that we have actually have to do with other organizations and other basketball players.

[B]

You're just chopping it up about ball.

[C]

That's it. We just chopping it up about who's.

[A]

Well, he also should. I should be invoicing Perk because he's also called me about other things, him personally, that he need my help. And I'm like, Perkins, I don't have enough hours in the day, man. Yeah, but it did. I'm giving him insight. And, and he's like, I'm like, but Perk you know, I do charge for this, right? But then he got the secret weapon. We. We won't mention it, but he has a secret weapon. He goes, but this ain't this for the family. Once he say, this is for the family. Now I'm done. Now I have to. Yeah, you know, he pinned me into a corner. But anyway, no. And again,

[B]

when you.

[A]

In these situations, Max, like, I'm. Like I'm. In most cases, novices is a big, big situation. There's so much speculation, there's so many conversations, there's so many people trying to position things and. And clues and all these things, and none of it is true. They don't know, like, none of it. There's probably 3% truth in a lot of things, you see, and, you know, the people that have some insight, right? On. On certain things. But for the most part, when you see all these shows and you see people speculating on who did what and why this was done, and the fact that nobody's calling and people are calling like they don't have any information.

[B]

While you were. While Perk and I were chopping it up, waiting for you to sit down, what did you say? Perk? Where would you go if you were LeBron?

[C]

Well, so I'm gonna answer that question, but two things. One, Max, is this. I've been knowing Braun since I've been about 14. Whether it's us playing against one another or playing on the Oakland Soldiers together or whether it was the McDonald's All American game. And Rich don't have to say a damn word. You don't even have to comment on this. This is the first time while honestly and really feel deep in my soul that Braun don't know where he wants to go, that he's actually wearing his options. Any other time, I would say, Braun knows this shit already. Braun moves like the President. It's nothing that Braun does throughout the course of a day, week, or month that is not planned out because he has to move like that. But this is the first time where he's actually wearing his options. That's number one. Number two, let me address this. I never addressed this issue. You know, a lot of players, they beef with a lot of media members, right? And they always say, well, state your source, or these unnamed sources. Well, the problem is, is that when you're in the media space, motherfucker, I can't give you all my sources, because then if I give you my sources, then I don't have nobody to turn to. So if I tell you that a source and it's not. I'm not talking about Rich. I'm not talking about you, Max. I'm telling you. In a situation like, for example, with Jaylen Brown. And I'm telling them. I'm saying, hey, listen, my sources are telling me, before he was traded, this is what's going on. This is what's happening. And all of a sudden they like, state your source. I can't state my source. Nor do you have to.

[B]

Nor do you have to.

[C]

You don't have to. I wanted to clear that up. But, Rich, let me say this. Me and Max were talking while we waiting on you to put your makeup on. Okay? While we wait on you to put your makeup on and get that out. To be.

[A]

To be fair, Perk, I was coming from the office where I had a meeting, and I. And then I had a zoom in the car on my way here to be here on time, sir, so.

[B]

Plus, you got a red eye tonight. All kinds of stuff. I know.

[A]

Had a red eye last night. Red eye tonight. Come on, Perk.

[C]

But Max and I was talking.

[A]

And what bright idea did you and Max come up with? Let me think. Max and Perk was talking. I don't like where this is going.

[C]

Well. Well, I'm gonna tell you where it's going. Hey, look, the best fit for Braun is Minnesota.

[B]

Yeah, basketball wise.

[C]

Yeah, basketball wise. If you're talking about plugging them into a space where he could go now and compete for a title. Now, I'm not saying he's going to be happy, but Anthony Edwards do bring you joy. Okay, Lamelo Ball will bring him joy, but if you look at what they're missing, all they're missing is that quote, unquote, somewhat power small forward to fill that void of a Julius Random that takes them over the hump. It's only two teams that's better than Minnesota right now, and that's OKC and the Spurs. But you put Braun on Minnesota with LaMelo McDaniels, Rudy, Ant Man, Dante. When he comes back, I.O. off the bench.

[B]

I wasn't even thinking of I.O.

[C]

yeah, that's what I'm. Hey, listen, I understand. I get it. But, man, you talk about smoking the city. That's a plus, perk.

[B]

Plus. You got to think the championship wisdom that LeBron brings. Like, what's the criticism on Melo? He's young, so he's relatively inexperienced. Maybe he's not taking the basketball part as seriously as the guys who get to the next level are. Right, like, because he's young, that's What? That's what's out there, right? LeBron James on that team fixes all of that. It fixes. And not only that, from LeBron's point of view, he can't play defense during the regular season if he wants to do it in high leverage moments in the playoffs. He's a million years old. He's got to pick and choose. You got Gobert back there erasing everyone's mistakes. McDaniel on whoever's the best offensive player. You sick that. Alien on whoever the best. Like, it's perfect from both points of view.

[C]

Max, he will make Rudy a better defensive player than you. I mean, a better defender.

[A]

Because.

[C]

Because just his iq. Just Braun awareness. It's certain players where you watch them on the floor, like Braun has that different level of basketball knowledge where when they're getting back and they're making a team, playing the half court set, Braun is actually watching the point guard and the coach on the sideline and seeing what play they calling. And Braun then is yelling to his sideline, already knows the play that's coming, and alerting their players, his teammates, that, hey, cross screen is coming. Get over the top. Hey, help me right here. I'm going to blow this up. Like, the only other person that I played with that had that type of awareness was Kevin Garnett defensively, like IQ wise. Now, Rondo was right there. No, but Rondo had a defense too. He learned it. But what I'm saying is, hey, Rich Braun, Minnesota, me and Max, that's not just a bright idea. That's the right idea.

[A]

I mean, look, Perk, you know, someone who's played in the league, I value your opinion. We've talked about this several times. Obviously it's not my choice, but I want to ask you as someone who has been on, you know, not just a championship team, obviously you won a ring, but several championship contenders. I think you were on a championship contending team in okc.

[B]

Won a ring as a starter, by the way. As a starter.

[A]

And probably would have won too, had he not been hurt, but also won a championship in Boston. You went back to the finals in Cleveland, I believe. Right, I went back to the finals. What? You know, earlier on the show, I made a comment where I said there is a difference between a team that a championship organization and an organization with championships. Help me understand, from a player perspective that's been in these locker rooms, that's been alongside of other hall of Fame type players, where do you see the truth in that statement? That or what I was trying to explain to the viewers and to the listeners, because it sounds a little oxymoronish, but it's actually true. But where do you think those. Where do you think that. That. That has its most equity in that. In that conversation?

[C]

So, one, I think I'm always a person that's looking at one who is leading the charge, right? So I pay attention to everything. I want to hear what the coach got to say, the head coach has to say post game, pre game interviews, every chance I get, because that's going to tell me his mindset. Then I'm going to watch body language on the floor, I'm going to watch body language on the floor, and I'm going to watch body language on the bench. Because body language is going to tell you everything you need to know about that locker room. It's gonna tell you if the coach actually has the attention in the ears of that locker room, it's gonna tell you if that locker room is policing themselves. Meaning that the coach don't have to say much. They're gonna hold each other accountable, right? And so when you look at certain situations and you look at certain teams like the Cavs, the reason that I never trust Cleveland, it was never because of their talent. It was always because of their body language. I would see Donovan Mitchell, he would drop his head at times. James Harden, bad body language at times. Evan Mobley, bad body language. Jared Allen, bad body language. And then I will listen to Kenny Atkinson and I'm just saying to myself, like, ah, I don't really know, right? San Antonio, on the other hand, take them, for example, they had a belief, right? Every time I'm hearing Wemby speak, it was like, oh, it's real over there. And then I'm starting to see certain things like guys losing themselves in the team. I'm starting, I'm seeing a Dylan Harper, who probably should have been inserted into the starting lineup probably midway through the season, embrace the role of coming in off the bench as a young guy, right? I'm watching a guy like Kelden Johnson, who won sixth man of the year, by the way. He didn't have the best playoffs, but he won sixth man of the year. I didn't see bad body language like, he should have been in the starting lineup. And so when you see that, I'm saying to myself, and you looking at Ms. Johnson and you like, fuck, he's younger than me. He got the attention of these guys going to Mike Brown for the Knicks call. Anthony Towns offensively had a better season under, under Tom Thibodeau. Offensively, like he was averaging right around 24 points per game. I think that number dropped to like 20 or 19. But I didn't see bad body language of Kohl Anthony Towns. I saw him actually accept the role that they wanted him to play. I saw Cole Anthony Towns be a better defender. I saw Koi Anthony Towns at times become a point center. I saw him go back to his role of accepting who he was again like those.

[B]

And then, and then, and then perk. And then perk because of what you're talking about when the culture is good like that, then it's easier in the playoffs when they make that adjustment against Atlanta, it's like, you know what? Let's run the offense more through cat. Right? Everybody, they've all sacrificed things. Everyone knows on the team. Okay, this is how we're doing it now. And they fell right into it. They became unstoppable.

[C]

They did, they did. But it, but in order. Look, you could, we could go back all the way in the history of time, in order to win a damn championship. You gotta have some on there that's gonna ruffle the feathers. You gotta have some dogs on your squads.

[A]

Every.

[C]

Go look at every team. Every team from when you want to go look at Jordan with the Bulls that had Dennis Rodman, he was gonna rough for the feathers. You look at my 2008 Celtics. We had all of us, all of us have loose screws from KG to Tony Allen to Big Baby. You know what I'm saying? You gotta have people who don't give a damn. Look at the people who won when Braun won his championships. Go look at the dogs around him. Junior, Sean, you know, Tristan, Tristan Rondo, Dwight, like guys who actually.

[A]

Dwight Howard, Casey Howard.

[C]

Yeah man. Alex Caruso. You gotta have dogs.

[A]

Selfless, selfless, selfless dogs. They could, they can play any role and tough. Yeah. And they hit. I mean they, they, those guys were getting maybe three, four shot attempts a game. But they, and they were making them in, in those instances. Per, I want to ask you something. So yesterday we saw demarcus and RJ comment on where they thought media was at with some of the legends of the game. And, and, and as guys start to end their career and it was very interesting, not self serving for me, but very interesting just to hear from former players in terms of, you know, how there's so many voices today and sometimes these things get clipped and people don't know what to believe as things start to come out. There's stories that unfold from out of different situations. And it could be very misleading given the fact that there's so many of these platforms that people are talking on. And then you got ex players from years and years and years ago that also have platforms that obviously you gotta respect, but we don't know what to believe and whatnot. Where are you on things like that in terms of. Because you do several different shows. I love Road Tripping, by the way, which is a great show that you guys do. And I think he was on Road Tripping. Was rj?

[C]

Yeah, he was.

[A]

Yeah, he was on Road Tripping. And I think. And so where are you with that? And because someone that's in media and obviously you got different platforms and you don't shy or mince words at all. But how do you feel about how these things are taking place today?

[C]

Well, I mean, so I have a. A different level of respect for journalists. I do. I do. Like, you know, we hear that all the time where ex players come on television or these podcasts, and the first thing come out their mouth is, well, why you listening to that person? They ain't never played basketball a day in their life or they ain't playing the NBA. And I'm like, from being in this space going on nine years now, I got a different level of respect for guys like a Brian Windhorse, for example, right? Because if you hang around Wendy enough, you know that he ain't just coming up with certain things and just pulling them out his ass, right? And he does.

[A]

No, Brian Winhorse is a. Is a pro.

[B]

Not only that, but he's not only that, but he's a person. He's smart, and he knows what he's looking at on top of being informed.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And he. He watches the game, right? Like, Malika Andrews does a hell of a job covering the game and putting together. Putting together a show because they actually watch and they study and they do their homework and they have relationships. So when they put their credibility on the line and go out and say something, they're not just like, you gotta understand, they're putting their credibility, which is everything to them. So I got a different level there. And then when we go to the player point part of it, I, I like, I love hearing player stories. I love players stepping into this space. Quick story. And then this is go. Pretty much answer your question. Rich and Max, you listen to this. So matter of fact, it was the time I was actually doing First Take with Max and Stephen A. And we was talking about something that was associated with the Clippers at The time. And I commented and I said something, and Lou Williams, he. Matter of fact, Lou Williams still got me blocked on social media to this day, right?

[A]

He.

[C]

He. It was something towards him. So he came and he commented. He said something towards me on social media or whatever. Anyway, fast forward. Lou will retire. Retire now he's in the media space.

[B]

And he's good, by the way. He's good at it.

[C]

So. But what I started, what I saw, what I'm seeing from Lou will is saying, oh, so the same stuff you was criticizing me for, you're actually doing it now. So you see in this media space that you have to be fair. You cannot straddle the fence, and you cannot be pro player. If a player is playing bad, you have to call it out. If an organization sucks, you have to call them out. But if they're doing good, you have to give them their flowers. And so I worked hard to get in this spot where people see me at eight, nine years from now. I wasn't a fucking hall of Famer, you know, hall of Famers, whether they good at media or not, soon as they retire, networks roll the red carpet out.

[A]

Farm. Yeah.

[C]

And here you go. Here go a platform. Here go multimillions. We know that you were great in basketball, so we know you gonna be great on tv. That's never the case.

[B]

No, but you had it, like, the first time you were doing broadcasting. It's like, oh, okay, this dude's gonna be a star. This dude's gonna. Because the main thing is perk. You gotta. You say what you think. It's good to have a colorful personality. And you have the phrases. That's what they, like, do the thing on snl. They, like, make crazy phrases. Cause you have, like, the home phrases and stuff. But the real thing people are looking for is what Charles Barkley does, right? This is what you do, is you have guys who will tell you the truth. And that's what people are looking for, right? Don't give me this TV answer. Give me the answer that is real.

[A]

It's raw. You want the rawness of it all.

[C]

Yeah, but think about it, y'. All. Think about how long it took for the audience to be able to. To. To gravitate towards me. Also to be able to show the network that, hey, I am entertaining. I do know my knowledge. Yeah. I may be a country boy from Beaumont that speak with broken English, but damn it, this. This ain't science or reading.

[B]

Every. Every show I was ever on, every show I was ever on when they were like, when they're like, okay, who do you want as a guest? I'm like, is Perkaville every show? Yeah, every show. Yeah. They got. Is Perk around.

[A]

Yeah. It doesn't have to be perfect. I mean, who wants to know?

[B]

It's more interesting when it's, hey, I want to. In your job, I want to get into something Perk. Because people think I grew up in New York. So I was just saying, Knicks, Knicks, Knicks. I was telling my friends, you know, during the playoffs, the Knicks about a steamroll, everybody. Because you could see they were hot as a pistol. I mean, they were. But it's. It's so. So there's a. A lot of people's. Oh, analytically, we beat the. You know, we were better than the Knicks. Analytically, we're up 2 to Atkinson. We're up to. We should be up 2 to 1. Former spurs assistant Sean Sweeney. I just saw this pop up on my social media on the Spurs Knicks in the NBA Finals. He said it was bad luck. If the games were like 46 or minutes or whatever, we would have won four to one. Perk. Let me ask you something. On the one hand, the Knicks set the point differential record over 12 or 13 games in the playoffs. All time. No team ever over that stretch, regular season or playoffs, ever outscored their opponents by more than the Knicks. On the other hand, they also had all of the best comebacks, basically, that you've ever seen. 29 points down to a juggernaut in the Spurs. It's not like the spurs are a bad team. Spurs are. Are a monster. Cleveland down 22 with seven and a half to go. They win by 11. So they're both the most dominant team for a stretch, the hottest team, let's say, in the playoffs. And they're the comeback kids in the playoffs. Why is it so hard for people to give them their props, do you think?

[C]

Because Jalen Brunson proves so many people wrong. That's why it's all about big body Brunson. And people still like, they struggle to give him his card. Although I will say this, I love, I think the fan base, the Knick fan base, New York, New Yorkers, like they bought a different type of life. Back to basketball.

[A]

That was amazing, Max.

[C]

I will say this. Y' all are annoying at times. Okay, but that's okay. But, but, but think about, think about all the narratives with Jalen Brunson. Six, two, can't get it done. He's not athletic, right? Small guard leading the. All that shit. And he proved Everybody wrong. On top of that, we have to realize that consistently Jalen Brunson over the last three years has really been the best player in the Eastern Conference.

[B]

Like Perk, why stop at the Eastern Conference? When you look at all the fourth quarter, all the clutch points, what he just did with the same defense, same guy that shut SGA down as much as you can, Brunson figured it out by the middle of the series. Like, why stop at the, at the Eastern Conference?

[C]

No, I agree. He had to me, his, his championship run ranks top 20 in my opinion, of all time. The story matters how he did it. Averaging 32 in the finals, 45 point game performance to close it out on the road. Last person was mj. All that matter. He got his name from me for a reason. Like, people was like, man, what was you thinking when you started calling them Big Body Bronson? I was like, you. You obviously don't watch him play like he actually is nothing he can't do. And he embraces contact. He loves physicality. The man averaged 13 points in the paint in the NBA Finals.

[A]

You know what else?

[B]

Perk. Perk. I saw this stat. This BMW my mind. Fourth quarter playoff points. Total playoff points in the fourth quarter. Who is the leader over the last six years? It's Jalen Brunson. Every year. Every year. But Perk, he didn't win the championship every year. He didn't get to the finals any year except this year. So he's doing all that more than the best player on the team that

[A]

won the championship six years. Is that across two teams?

[B]

That's across two teams across Dallas and New York. And it's total fourth quarter points in the playoffs. Remember when I kept reading it? I read it on this show. Remember I said 20, 26, 20, 24, 23.

[A]

Some reason I, for some reason, I didn't calculate that. It was across two different. He did it alongside of both Luca and Carl Anthony Towns in terms of two perennial all stars in both conferences in both conferences. And he did that in Dallas without even. He hadn't gotten the money yet. He hadn't gotten the recognition yet. But he was. He was. Oh, man, this is crazy.

[B]

Nuts. He's right. Big Body Brunson is the nickname, man.

[C]

And he exposed Wimy. Like, yeah, we give, we give a lot of heat to Rudy and Wimy is going to win defensive player of the year probably another.

[B]

Forever.

[A]

Yeah, another five, six years in the

[C]

NBA Finals for Jalen Brunson to do what he did, especially in game four. 21 times he put Wimby in action. No, you come here, and I'm sitting up here saying, you know that, seven, six, I don't give a damn. You come here, I'm going to pick on you. And.

[A]

And, well, well, I'll tell you something about that perk. And you know this from playing the game of basketball forever all your life. The things that people talk about that seem to be negative towards a Jalen Brunson, not super fast, not super athletic. What you develop is craftiness. And when you're crafty and you play pickup ball and you can't see those guys actually make the better basketball players in a lot of ways because they can't depend on one thing. Whenever I'm evaluating a player and they'd be like, oh, he's super athletic, I'm like, that's a dangerous thing, because he's going to only depend on his athleticism. And so now when you're in high school, when you're in aau, you're so much more faster and athletic than other people. You don't develop the other skill sets that's going to be necessary for you to actually become a true pro and a pro that actually is impactful. But in Jalen Brunson's case, whatever you felt like he was lacking, he made that up with IQ and craftiness. So it doesn't surprise me when he do these things, because, you know, around the basket, when you're crafty, you. You can. You can use your body different ways. Like he said, take the physicality pace. He's slow, fast, boom, boom. And then now what we don't talk about, which he's incredible at, is his jump shot.

[B]

Yeah, incredible.

[A]

Jalen Brunson, don't miss wide open jump shots.

[B]

But he also has that thing. He has that thing that Kobe Bryant had or Derek Jeter had or the kind of guy who knows there's no one who works harder at me than this. So I put in all the work. So when the moment comes, it's nothing to him. It's like he's like, if he fails, that's okay because no one's perfect. But he's gonna get like, there's no way he could be more prepared for the moment. Right. He's given everything he has, so he's not scared of the moment.

[A]

And here's another thing. This is a very underrated thing. He played high school ball in Chicago.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There is no easy way out in playing high school ball in Chicago. I don't care if you went to the school that cost 75,000 a year and y' all had caviar for lunch. If you was on that basketball team and you played other teams in Chicago, you have to be able to play

[B]

in the story and be tough.

[A]

And if you go down state, forget about it because you may run into a team from Peoria, from Rockford. All these people can play the state of Illinois. So, you know, when you have to break things down a little bit different,

[B]

but also that whole team, I think, you know, and people have been talking about this recently. Perk, I want to get your take on it. There's. The chemistry is so obvious, right. The Nova Knicks, even when they had to break it up because of course, you got to move divincenzo if Cat's there. But, like, that's a hard thing to do, unfortunately. But that chemistry, I think, was a different kind of thing. It's not just like, you can stack up the talent high enough and now you're going to win. The way they relate to each other, the way they play together, the coaching and everything is really. What did that. You know, like Brunson been in the league a long time, never won a championship until now.

[A]

But remember, I told you they benefited from not going through process. Sometimes when you go through process, it causes you to overthink things. Going back to the draft. We can transition to the draft. Perk, talk to us about, obviously you covered the draft, but I. And there's been a lot of. There's been a lot of hype on the top four picks. We know that the draft didn't start until five. Right?

[C]

Right.

[A]

Once you got to five.

[B]

But did they get one wrong? Because Caleb Will Rich was telling me all year Caleb would be the first pick in the draft. Perk, maybe I'm trying to think of a comp for Caleb Wilson in NBA history. What's the exact comp?

[A]

Kevin Garnett Kind of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sort of.

[A]

With. With. It's weird because I don't like to compare players. But what I'm saying is when people ask me about Caleb, when I. When I mentioned the word, the name Kevin Garnett, it's not only about his game of basketball, it's how he approaches the game of basketball. You see, at 35, they lost. He's like, we lost. I don't really want. I don't really care to talk about the 35. Oh, well, you know, there's other guys shut down. You should be shut down. And he probably should be shut down. But he played. But you hear what he said. Why did he play? Because I'm trying to get prepared for back to backs. I'm going to have to play back to backs in the seat.

[B]

He also said it was interesting that. That Peterson didn't play and that's his.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So his mindset was different. But. But what I mean by when I talk about the being number one, when you're starting an organization or you have an organization you starting your timeline over in terms of age of players that you're now starting to build out on, having that one guy that is not only talented but is coachable, that is accountable, that is driven, that is professional with care. But when you check all those boxes for the. The.

[B]

The guy, the culture automatically franchise cornerstone, franchise.

[A]

I don't care about points and all that. I'm talking about these things.

[B]

What's your impression of him so far, Perk?

[C]

Well, I love him. I think the KG comp is right because one KG KG is one of the most skilled players to ever play the game of basketball.

[A]

Been there.

[B]

Both. Yeah.

[C]

To the younger generation out there. To my kids, if y' all don't know, go YouTube him playing one on one in the Olympics. Okay. Against J kid and them full court and you'll see what I'm talking about.

[B]

And he was a maniac. And his level of intensity was insane.

[C]

And I'm seeing the same thing for his work ethic when I'm. When you talk about Caleb Wilson, the knock on him was that he got to learn how to shoot the trade ball consistently. You come out in your debut in summer league and knock down seven of them out of 11 for 11. And then. And then reports start coming out that he stand every day or he's making 2, 2000 to 2500 3.

[A]

Chris Johnson shoots so many jump shots, I said, chris, the kid's arms gonna fall off, man.

[B]

By the way, I've heard people question that number 2000 if it's real because. But because 2000's got to be two hours at least of shooting Max.

[C]

Let me tell you something to the people out there that's questioning it. You don't have to. I played with a guy by the name of James Posey, who's the heart and soul of our team in 2008. James Posey, he didn't want. No, he didn't want a shooting machine. He didn't want none of that. Stayed three hours after every practice. And he made 1500. Made corner three point shots after every practice. So people who I tell this from Max Cleveland.

[A]

Okay, go ahead, Perk.

[C]

What?

[A]

That guy? I'm just saying. Shooter, shoot. I'm just.

[B]

Shooter, shoot. This is. He's a walking Cleveland propaganda machine. It's unbelievable.

[A]

When you came to Cleveland, how did I take care of you? Perk. When you came to Cleveland?

[C]

I ain't gonna lie.

[A]

You did.

[C]

Hey, yeah, yeah. Both times, max. Both times. I ain't gonna knock them both times. But this is what I'm gonna say about this draft in summer league, from one through whatever, I'm gonna just go one through 10. What it showed us is that this is why teams or the NBA were willing to move on from quote unquote, franchise guys. Like. And it's gonna continue to happen. If a lot of these franchise guys don't get they stuff together. Teams are not gonna be sitting around saying, oh, yeah, we gonna. Hey, listen, it's another group of guys on their way. It's a Marcus Spears Jr. That's on his way. It's a Beckham Black. That's Anthony Black's little brother that's on his way. And these are not players that are coming in to be role players.

[B]

They're coming in for greatness.

[A]

Well, if you look at it, you got Bruce Branch, you got Caleb Holt, you got Jordan Smith.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

But we're talking about. And not even the toot to own horn because we had a great draft as a company. And I don't lie about these things. I tried to explain to teams about Braden Burry's.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I tried to talk to teams about coapeat. They was on this show. I said, listen, it don't matter what a workout looks like. When a man has played for the USA team for four years and. And then he went and won four straight championships, I want that man on my team 100%. I don't care what his.

[B]

That ain't luck.

[A]

That is not lucky.

[C]

And then went to the national championship. Both of those guys as starters, as true freshmen.

[A]

True freshman.

[B]

Yeah. See, the. The thing I love about Caleb and all your guys, Buries and Pete. So they are all guys who, you know, want to star in their role.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then their role is determined by how high the talent is pitched. Da da da da. But Caleb Wilson's going to want to be the best player on a team because that's where his size and talent say that he's heading. But if for some reason he winds up in another position where he needs to star in a certain role to win, his person, he just wants to win. He wants to be as good as he can be. And win.

[A]

I get an example of that perk. You love this as a coach. So I'm talking to Caleb and I said, you know, where do you see yourself at the next level? And he says, I'm a three, right? And I said, okay, so, but what if you get drafted to a team and they ask you to play the four? He said, well, if I get drafted to a team and they ask me to play the four, I'm going to play the four all the way up until the coach realizes I'm a three. And at that point, forget about it. Even in another story, we went to combine.

[B]

You ask Caleb Wilson any, any question and you get a perfect answer. He doesn't need to think about. He doesn't need to think about what you want to hear, what's going to sound right to the fans or the media. It's who he. It's. He's internalized it. So it's like a computer spitting out an answer. You're like, oh, my God, that's perfect.

[A]

That's what I mean. That really excited me. One was in our gym this year for pre draft. I never felt like there was a competition amongst these young guys. They were all in there wanting guys to get better. They were all in there, you know, like, really concerned about guys getting better. And we're in this together. It wasn't. I didn't see no certain cars pull up in the parking lot. They wasn't trying to do any of that. It was no outing of nobody, which was a beautiful thing to see. Then we go to combine and we decide as a company, you know, we're going to do something. And I always, when I go back to Chicago, which is one of my favorite cities, I try to do something in the community. So we, I partner with some guys through the Obama foundation and my guy Vondale there, and we went to, like a community center. And it was all these young kids from all over. And one of the, you know, there was a young kid that was killed in an Uber situation. They killed him in the Uber. He was on the basketball team. Some of his teammates was there. And it was just a group of guys. And I had Caleb and Braden and Koa come, and Koa says to me, he says, you know, Rich, this really makes me happy, man. This brings me a lot of joy. And I'm like, what? You know, going to the NBA? He goes, no. Being here with these young men and helping them understand what it actually means to get here. And if you don't get to the position, I am how important it is to really still believe and have hope. And I'm like, I'm literally taken back by. I'm like, you know, what's going on here? And they didn't want to leave. They had to leave. They did not want to leave this record. And they were recreation center and they were interacting with the guys and, and it was just a beautiful thing to see. And they, they talked and answered questions and all those things. So we, we, we really hit the jackpot on. In terms of just people. Not basketball players, just. Yeah, people. And so, you know, I was excited for where they landed. And obviously, if you did a redraft after summer league, it's too early for that. You still got to let them go in and play. But I, you know, true professionals, man.

[B]

And in Perkins, I know the way, way, way, the way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way too early. Redraft way too early. Yeah. On my board, on my overreacting board is Caleb number one. And I'll tell you, like, because the reason people like the Bonsa more than Peterson is because he's bigger, he's longer, he's like. But Peterson's game was more polished. But when you look at Caleb, if, if Caleb's going to be hitting the outside shot and he's going to be defending the rim.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he's nasty.

[C]

I'm with you. I love Caleb. I think in any other draft, Caleb Boozer.

[A]

Yeah, you can. This is loaded. That top four is loaded, man.

[C]

That would be the number one pick. Yeah, but, but let me say this. That damn, that damn Darian Peterson. Rich, you and I had a discussion.

[A]

I told you off air.

[C]

And we talked about his floor being Bradley Beal with a ceiling of Kobe Bryant. It took me two summer league games to realize his floor might be what? Booker.

[A]

Oh, Devin Booker.

[C]

Floor is Devin Booker.

[A]

I like that. Yeah.

[C]

Max, when you know, you know, and all of us have students of the game, we've been around the game our entire lives. We know a pure bucket, a walking bucket when we see one. And my first, the first two games, I said, man, not one of this man's shots is touching real. Whether it was a floater, whether it was a three point, I was, I was amazed.

[B]

I thought he was going to be the not he was going to be, but I was like, oh, he should be the number one pick.

[A]

Perk offline. What did I say to you? I said, perk. I'm not trying to hear what none of these people talking about cramps Creatine, Nothing. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. I've known DP since he was a freshman. That young man's game is going to translate right now because at the NBA level, people think having a bag is doing a bunch. Don't quit comparing Kyrie Irving to people. He's not human.

[B]

No, he's not.

[A]

He is not human when it comes to being a basketball player. That is not a bag. That is not. That's what you call a wardrobe. He does not have a bag. Kyrie Irving has a wardrobe. Leave him out of this, please.

[B]

You're not going to go skill for

[A]

skill with Kyrie, the average person to make it in the NBA, you need to simplify your game and be able to get to spots and be efficient. When you look at Darren Peterson and he called that high ball screen up there and he snake it and he either step back or get to that nail and bro, it's too easy, right?

[C]

It's too easy.

[A]

And the way he shoots, by the

[B]

way, by the way, that was actually MJ's game. MJ didn't. If you watch MJ, there's not a single wasted movement.

[A]

MJ didn't have. No, he wasn't in there trying to do no Herky. He was getting to his.

[B]

He was just. By the way, actually Kobe had more of the. Of more of the moves. But. But MJ was more. He was most efficient. Like he. There was no wasted movement. He made everything easy even though he had all those spectacular hard shots. But most of his game was just getting himself an easy shot.

[A]

Yeah, when you.

[B]

Not many dribbles, not much bullshit. Just get.

[A]

You know, the only bag you need in the NBA is a capability of having the ability to shift a defense. If you can make a defense react and you can read you in good shape. That's all that athletic. Athleticism and jumping. It don't matter how high you can jump if you can't execute, that don't mean anything. That's why these guys don't make it.

[B]

Is this going to go down as one of the best drafts ever, you

[A]

think potentially it has the potential? Because one through two, I can go past one co op went 30.

[C]

Yeah, but that's. But yeah, I got that part Rich. But let me tell you something. You know, I'm a little defensive to this. 2003 is the best draft ever. I don't give a damn what nobody say.

[A]

I don't have an argument with you.

[B]

Well, it's either that one or it's

[A]

either that or what, 96.

[B]

No, I mean, first of all, you had Jordan and Hakeem in the same draft. You know, you can, you can. I just have to put it in front of me. There, there, there are other names. There's a hell of a draft.

[A]

Well, you, you can keep going. There's a lot of good players in that, in that, in that 84 draft perk. But I think it's less about the guys at the top and it's more about the guys.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. How, how deep it is?

[A]

25 and beyond.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Count those.

[C]

Because Max, in my draft, you gotta remember it was guys like, you know, Kirk Heinrich, Nick Collison that had long careers. And look, Luke Walton went second round. He's a two time NBA champion, played a huge role with the Lakers. Like you have guys that are. You know what I mean? I believe Boris, not Boris Di, but you have those guys. I gotta go back. But our draft was really hell. I was the 27th pick. You know what I mean?

[B]

NBA champion.

[A]

But it was a lot, it was a lot of really good players in this draft.

[B]

Otis Thorpe, Charles Barkley, John Stockton. That's all the MJ's, Hakeem drafts. Yeah.

[A]

Otis Thorpe, Charles Barkley, John Stockton. I mean, come on, man.

[C]

Otis Thorpe taught me how to shoot a jump hook. You know, I was a clutch city guy, so I used to watch Otis Thor, big strong ass Otis Thorpe just. He gonna jump hook you to death. Made a living, huh?

[A]

But this.

[B]

No, but you're right, your draft was crazy deep.

[A]

The thing about this draft though, Perk, when you look at the guards, right? Really strong guards. I like Brown, I like Acuff, obviously Buries Peterson. The Sixers, The Sixers got Le Baron. That kid's good, man. That kid has been good. He could have went last year and would have been a first round pick. He went back to school. When you look at the forwards from Koa at 30, the kid that the warriors took, the kid that Dallas took, there's just a lot of talent sprinkled throughout this draft. I think the important thing, and what I'm noticing is even at summer league,

[B]

who did Chicago take in the second round?

[A]

No, not the second round. No, your second pick in the first.

[B]

Second pick of the first.

[A]

Swain. Swain, yeah.

[B]

Like Swain's a guy. When you look at Chicago, you go, oh, Chicago is going to be. If Swain turns into something, which he has a good shot with Matthias, that's going to be a problem.

[A]

Yeah, so. So what I. What I'm Starting to notice. And this is what you didn't see at summer league, although you kind of seen a little bit of DP and AJ a little back and forth the first game. And you want to have that in summer league. When you got those marquee guys coming up. I saw a lot of guys play the game the right way in summer league and normally that's a let me do my thing type of platform. And so what that says to me is when you transition into training camp, because summer league, I tell all the guys, if you're going to make a team and make a roster, don't look at summer league as let me go in here and score a bunch of points. That's not going to happen. Teams are looking at you to see how they identifying your role, where you can fit in possibly in summer league. It's very important to play the right way in summer league.

[B]

Do you think that's a function of nil keeping guys in college longer? So there's fewer one and dones than there were, let's say, 10 years ago. So guys are learning it a little better. By the time they get to the

[A]

league, especially the right schools, you tend to understand how to play the game. That's.

[B]

This is why Nil's been good for the NBA. It's been good for the NBA. You get more mature players.

[C]

But not really, Max, because let me tell you what's happening, and I'm gonna say this then I want to lead into a question for Rich. What's happening is. And not Cora Pete, but what's happening is, is that if this was 10 years ago, a lot of guys that got drafted late, first round, second round, would have never got drafted.

[A]

True.

[C]

If NIL was around, if that makes sense.

[A]

I know why he's saying that, Max. He's saying it because most of the guys that could have came out this year went back to school because they were getting paid a ton of money. So therefore the draft shifted.

[B]

But what that means is you have X number of players going to come into the league. Right. There are 450 jobs.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

The kind of player that you're saying is now more prevalent in summer league. Right. Is that could be a function of the fact that even if the draft later on is not what it would have been because guys are in college, but those guys who are staying in college by the time they get to the draft are going to be more mature players.

[A]

There is a way that NIL could help the NBA in my opinion, and this is you got to have a Balance here. But if you said, okay, there's more guys staying in the league, I mean in college because of nil, if that's not being utilized to put forth a ton of two way contracts and you're giving some of that to a vet minimum and you're picking the right vets to continue to sprinkle the nourishment into your culture of an organization that could work one way. Because the vets are being ousted. They're not, they're not staying around as long as they, as they, as they was. And you need that vet. You see what, you see what New Orleans just did with DeAndre Jordan. Everyone was in an uproar about him signing a two year minimum. But you want a guy like DeAndre Jordan around. And then if you pair that with one or two two way guys, and that's part of his role and existence on that bench, is to turn these two way guys into players. In addition to helping the coach police the locker room, helping guys understand the importance of habits and things of that nature, policing shoot arounds to where and film sessions where it's not being too playful, you know, you gotta have some type of.

[C]

And you gotta protect your investment.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you remember the Pelicans last year in the draft? They caught a lot of heat they traded to get Derek.

[B]

Yeah, he's a player and that how that pan out. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But, but he's one of their guys. Queen is a big man that has a huge package offensive a lot of

[B]

us, by the way, he's knocking on the door when you talk about big men.

[C]

He's real, you talk about, I mean he got, he remind me, he got a lot of yokage and Shangoon in them offensively. The way he's able to, his versatility, being able to put the ball on the floor, assist, rebound. But he has to get better defensively. And in order to do that you need an extension of the coach. You need a DeAndre Jordan to be in this ear time and time again. I think Cleveland dropped the ball when they didn't re sign Tristan Thompson. You needed that Tristan Thompson on that. I'm not saying that they beat the Knicks, but they damn sure don't get swell right.

[B]

They don't stop playing in the middle, in the middle of a fourth quarter.

[C]

Yeah, but Donovan Mitchell, we never, we never recovered as a group from the game one loss.

[A]

Yeah, because you got a guy on the bench now that's been down 3:1 and understands you. You, you know, you cannot give up in these situations. And by the way, you need that same guy in that huddle when that 22 point lead in the fourth quarter is dwindling to say, slow it down, execute, dare in the penalty, whatever, you know, you just need those extra set of eyes and ears.

[B]

The way they quit was disgraceful.

[A]

Go ahead, Perk.

[C]

Let me ask you this. So, for example, you have a client, right, that's entering the draft. All right, it's kind of uncomfortable. But, you know, me and you, we have real conversations, right? And the university that he's left offered him more money, but he went into the draft, but he fell kind of low, still went first round. He's gonna be making less money, but he's in the NBA. Then what? Like what he would have been made in college. What is your conversation with him? To keep his headspace to where it needs to be.

[A]

So we had a situation like that, and my conversation was simple. I don't think you dream of playing multiple years in college. You dream of going to the NBA. So. Yes. So your university may be offering you more money for this year coming up to entice you to come back. But let me explain something to you at the NBA level, and you know this from being in your neighborhood, Perk. When you see that young lady come down the street and you like, who is that? Whoa. Who is that? We ain't never seen this. Nobody. What's going on here? Great. Now three weeks go past and you like, oh, that's just Tasha. Or the other way around, they see Perk coming down, and the young ladies are on the porch and they say, who is that? We ain't never seen that young man before. Oh, that's just Perk. After a while, the more that we see you, it's not as exciting anymore. When you've made it out of a season unscathed, uninjured, you know, you position yourself to hear your name being called. It don't matter about where you go one through 30, you want to get to the right team. And if you can get to the right fit, you can make it from there. Because now if I go back to school and that five, six million dollars you're going to pay me, right? And now I tear my ACL or my Achilles or I have an MCL or I have a bad season or whatever the case may be. Now, instead of me going here, it's not even about the pick. It's only about the fitness. That fit for me in that moment that I could have been positioned in becomes the next team. Now, that fit isn't as strong that fit isn't as positioned for me to become successful in. So now I've missed the boat and they got me on a canoe. So now I'm sitting here in this canoe and the water is very rocky. And what I mean by that is I'm getting spot minutes, right? I got one year guarantee. My next three years is non guaranteed.

[B]

The front office, the bloom is off the rose to. People don't see you the same way.

[A]

The front office

[C]

love me.

[A]

It's all these things. In our case, in a case like, like, like in Koa's case, I didn't really care, and I told his family this on our call. I don't care about where you go in the draft. I care about the right fit, which is why we fought so hard. Now you get a local kid that grew up, won four state championships in Arizona, went to Arizona. Now he's playing in Phoenix, and he's playing for Jordan Knott, who is great with young kids. He was a development guy forever. And he's surrounded by positive guys that want to play the right way. Matt Ishbia is, you know, he wants to win, he wants to get better. And look at the summer league he had. Now, I do believe he would have done well with the Sixers. I do believe he would. He would have done well in Boston because I just think he's a pro.

[B]

San Antonio.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. San Antonio. Some guys. Some guys, you know, there's people that's great test takers, but they're not great students. And then there's people that's great students, but they all. But they don't really do well, you know, on one test. So in this case, and. But that's a good question, though, Perk, because I was always a firm believer in this, too. The more years you play in college, the less years you have in your prime. So that affects your career earnings, right? So if in your prime, imagine you played three years in college, Perkins, and whatever you made at your highest, whatever your highest earning was, take two years of that earning off your career earnings.

[B]

But the counter of that is when you look at these Knicks, for example, and in the moment of truth, they're playing high IQ basketball, higher than the opposition, which is why they beat them. Those guys were seasoned college players. Yeah, but you.

[A]

But that's two different things. I'm not saying if you are a college player and you need to stay in college for four years to become a pro. Stay. Yeah, listen, take as many swings as you.

[B]

But you're saying once you Are properly positioned. You got to strike while the iron's hot.

[A]

Yes, I'm all for. Yes, I'm all for you staying in college. There's no need for you to rush out of college just to become a, you know, no offense, but someone who's scratching and clawing. I think people get it construed. And I had this conversation with a journalist who was trying to position me as somebody who forced kids. I never forced one kid out of school. I sit with families you make. I come from a place of accountability. There was no excuses in my household. You just gotta read the book. Lucky me. But when, when, when, when a family says to me, our mind is made up, we're coming out now. I can no longer try to talked them out of something. Now I gotta find a solution. I gotta find the best situation. But I don't. I'm not asking you to leave, especially now. Why would you leave school? You can make $10 million over four years in college and still and become

[B]

a better player and go get your degree. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah, if you could do that and it's necessary, do it.

[C]

Some college players need to go to full 4 or 500. They do because they're not going to be good pros.

[A]

Goals 100.

[C]

And that's, that's, that's when reality kick in. Like some, like now I don't even call college college anymore. Like this is a. This bro. They're getting paid. So some is. It's where that accountability and that you gotta be honest with yourself. Like I look at Cora Pete and I'm not just saying this because rich on here Max. And I'm just speaking on this truth is that I look at him and I'm saying when I saw him in college and in summer league, I said he's going to have a 14, 15 year career.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I'm with you. I'm very high on KOA Pete.

[C]

I agree because you could drop him anywhere. He's going to make a ton of money being like he's going to have a career where if he played 14, 15 years, he stays healthy. He may knock at the door, be an All Star four or five of those years, but he's going to make him 200 plus million dollars. And I tell people this, I say, I said, I tell these young kids around au I said, I want y' all to look at one person, Lou Dort. Lou Dort is probably going to make about 150 to 160 million when it's all said and done right in his career being a 6, 4, 6 5, Bulldog, defensively high motor guy of getting offensive rebounds and occasionally knocking down threes when need be. Hey, I said, Bill, star in your role park before.

[B]

Before we let you go, because I know we've been. We kept you for a while. Out of everyone who made the moves in this off season, who like the major moves. So the Celtics made a major move, even though they didn't acquire a guy like Jaylen Brown. The Sixers made a major move by acquiring Jaylen Brown. Brown, obviously, Giannis going to Miami, that's a major move. I think Lamelo going to Minnesota out of all these things. And obviously, we're asking this before LeBron has made his decision. Who do you think improved the most?

[C]

Jason. Title.

[B]

Jason Tatum and the Celtics.

[C]

Jason Tatum. And let me. Let me explain why. Because the Celtics had to pick a side, right? And a lot of people are saying, you know, blaming Brad Stevens for dropping the ball and losing to Pat Riley when he shouldn't have for us, the Giannis sweepstakes. Okay, cool. After he jumped off the porch, he had no choice but to trade Jaylen Brown. Okay? The rest of the league knew that. But once he picked that side, once he came out publicly and said, we basically couldn't have two guys tying up 70% of the cap, that means Jayson Tatum is our guy. And, you know, the reports come out that they weren't best of friends. I don't give a damn about that. I ain't seen a lot of guys who weren't best of friends. They still won at a high level. You employees, that's what y' all do.

[B]

They already got ones.

[A]

But I think that's. I think that's unfair to Brad Stevens because I don't think he lost to Miami in that situation. I think, yeah, he did, Rich. No, because here's why I'm telling you. No, he did not. Okay, because you're saying he lost because of what? Because he didn't get Giannis.

[C]

Yeah, because he didn't put. He didn't put up enough. So whatever. Whatever that.

[A]

Listen, if they disagree with that, go ahead. I'm listening.

[B]

You're saying that he was let per.

[A]

Go, then? I'm saying.

[B]

I think you're saying he was willing to pay a certain price for Giannis, but not more than that. But go ahead.

[A]

Go ahead.

[C]

Okay, but. Okay, cool. We disagree.

[A]

That's not what I'm saying. No, but I'm gonna let you know what I'm saying.

[C]

So what I'm saying is, Tatum, before your injury, we Heard you come out publicly and say that you want to be the best player in the world or you feel like you are the best player in the world. We heard you come out publicly and say that you want to win the mvp. He'll never admit it, but you think a guy that averaged about 27, 28 points in the Finals, NBA Finals, you don't think he felt like he was deserving of that NBA Finals trophy that Jaylen Brown got, you don't think that Jayson Tatum feels some type of way? He has. Kobe is or was his mentor, so he has that mentality. He is the poster boy of the Boston Celtics. When you go around the city of Boston, it's not post. It wasn't posters of Jaylen Brown.

[A]

No. Jason Tatum. Jason Tatum is the face of the Boston Celtics. There's no question.

[C]

Okay, so, so, so, so I need to see it. Okay? Like now you're. You're. I need to see it. I need to see you finish the season as the top three mvp.

[B]

They went out and got a Mitch Robinson. That'll make his job a little easier.

[A]

Let me tell you why I don't think Brad. I think Brad Stevens is getting a bad. Not that he cares, but I think people are looking at this all wrong. I'm the president of basketball operations on the team, okay? I have a key guy that I'm trading out right now. I have to make a decision. I got to look at the rest of my pieces, and I have to make a decision that if this guy is coming back to me, age matters, salary matters, timeline matters. If you look at the trade for the Bucks, timeline don't matter for them and. Or Jaylen Brown. So what happens? I'm going to give up Giannis to go to somewhere and I'm going to get a player back that is now going to come in and he's going to look around and he's going to say, now wait a minute, you had me come here and I had no chance of winning. I got to wait on you for another year or two to make other moves that may or may not happen

[B]

from the buck's point of view.

[A]

Yeah, I got three years left on my deal, man. I don't want to be here. Get me out of here. So now as the basket. As the president of basketball operation, I have another headache. You can't do that. So I don't think. I don't. I don't think.

[B]

You're saying. You're saying Boston was never going to be able to get Giannis anyway.

[A]

Because I don't think so.

[B]

Because the Bucks would not want what's coming back. Based on how.

[A]

From the timeline perspective, not the talent perspective. Yes. If, if that talent was 25 years old and they hadn't won a championship yet, and you. And you were looking to. To. To. To build around that, that particular talent, then absolutely, I can do that. But I don't think that's the case.

[C]

Let me ask you.

[A]

That was the case. So it wasn't on Brass Steel.

[C]

Because I want to ask you this question. And seriously, it's. It's a narrative out there that. From executives, league executives, that Jalen. That they felt like for the price of Jaylen Brown, for what he's getting paid, he wasn't that type of player. Like I'm trying. That don't make sense to me.

[A]

Here's the thing. Your value is what's negotiated. You can't put a price on something. If you negotiate it, then that's the value. So regardless how they feel about Jalen Brown, his. He, you know, his, his contract was negotiated. No, I got a good job as his agent and he got.

[C]

No, no, no. But Rich, I think you missing the point. What I'm trying to say is, is that league executives don't view him as a top 10 player in the league. They don't view him as that guy. And I'm sitting back saying to myself

[A]

how he took the team.

[B]

The analytics don't love him.

[A]

Yeah, but with the production, me and

[C]

you on the same page.

[A]

He went. He took a listen. Last year the Boston Celtics was supposed to be not even a play in team.

[B]

And he took them to the playoffs.

[A]

No, no, no. They finished as a two seed.

[B]

And he's a former finals mvp. So he's also won a championship.

[A]

That can be a little misleading. And he's a two way player in that case. I don't know about that part.

[B]

But there were things.

[A]

But, but I'll say this before you say that Max.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can also make the argument. And I hear it all the time. The, the problem with this whole max thing is, you know, people feel like there's a ton of guys in the league. That's a max player. Right. That's. That's not max players just being paid the max. But aren't max players is what I meant. Right, right, but, but, but you are what you negotiate or your, or your.

[C]

No.

[B]

Right, but that's what people. That's what people are arguing. Rich people are saying that people are. The system is set up in a way where too many players are sucking up 35% of the cap, but. But are not worth 35% of the cap.

[C]

That's the number still, but the numbers tell us otherwise. Max, I know a lot of people gotten their feelings about the Trey Young contract, but I had to like couple me and my high school homeboys was arguing and I said, hey man, I'm not gonna send this to y', all, but y' all might want to go look at Trae Young numbers. His numbers. If you go look at his numbers now, it didn't equivalent to wins, but he did take the Hawks to the Eastern Conference finals. He has some, you know, he had some good times over there, but if you go look at his numbers, his numbers is saying hall of Fame.

[B]

Well, except that.

[C]

But this is actually 25.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Perk, I disagree with this because this is actually the argument that people use against analytics. When I don't. I think people are talking past each other. When you say his numbers say hall of Fame all you're. You're talking analytics, but you're talking about analytics that we're all used to from a long time ago. Points, rebounds, assists, this. And that's. And what modern analytics is saying is that's not actually the best way to evaluate players. Here are some new numbers that we're less familiar with that are just like points, rebounds, and assists used to be, but they give you a more accurate reflection of what's really going on. And, and so when they. When you look at Jalen Brown's numbers, the new numbers, they're saying it's not points, rebounds, and assists. Those make him look a little better than he is now. We could say, which is a separate issue, the analytics are missing something because Jaylen Brown just made a team a two seed and has won a finals mvp and he's a two way player. But I don't think we can say what you just said, Perk, which is look at the numbers. Because the numbers are just like more primitive analytics, really. Right. They're just counting up the points, rebounds, and assists.

[C]

No, I. Listen, I was saying look at the numbers for us and Richard Tay. If I'm negotiating a contract, if I'm negotiating. If I'm their agent and I'm negotiating the contract, you can't explain to me why you just paid, why someone just got this and my client has averaged this in this, doing this. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying I don't, but there

[B]

might be a Kendrick Perkins out there that doesn't Put up the same numbers as another player playing the same position. And. But a basketball person with some brains might look number one at analytics or number two, just the eyeball test, or number three, they know who you are and what you're about and they know what this other player is and what they're about. And even though this other player is putting up better quote unquote numbers than you, I'm not giving that other player the money. I want perk on my team.

[A]

Yeah, but you also have to evaluate the career of the player. Not just one season, because think about it. If, if, if, if, if your wife evaluated you off of, you know, one weekend, you might be that minimum.

[B]

That minimum. You're saying I got a two way contract going to the G League.

[A]

So, so, so I think sometimes. And also, you know, we live in a world where these platforms and these fans and these different voices, but you have to. Every contract is layered. There's no, there's no like single layer contract. Every contract is layered in so many different ways. And I've, I've made my bones on getting guys that were deemed to be, you know, just middle of the pack type of players, 20 to 30% over. And you know, when you look at the tailings, the kcps, Eric Bledsoe was one of the, one of the first ones. Tristan, I remember when Tristan deal came out, people were like, he got how much? Yeah. And they don't know when KCP got

[B]

the 18 from the Lakers, whatever it was one year deal.

[A]

And, and in that conversation with KCP, what I explained to him, I said KCP, here's what you got to understand as your representation. I'm not trying to lock you in to multiple years of a bad deal. I believe in you. Okay? They pulled the rug out from up under us and removed your qualifying offer after the market was dry, right. For whatever reason, they thought great. But contracts come are every year. You know why people want.

[B]

You know how much 18 was back then?

[A]

It was a lot of money.

[B]

18 was a ton back then.

[A]

But the lakers only had 20 million in cap space. We took 18 of it. But, but do you know why people want those? And it's good, you should want it. But the reality of it is wanting that big number, that big deal. As much as it's about financial stability and security and all that, it's also about perception. And in your mind, just like when you about to get your tax return, you go spend what you think you got coming tomorrow. So you want that players would actually do better with their Finances, if it came every year. Now, I'm not. I'm not putting. But I'm just saying what happens is. So I said, this is what I explained to kcp. It's okay. It's called career earnings, not year earnings. It's called career earnings, so don't leave

[B]

the cuh out of it.

[A]

Yeah, right. So we gonna walk them down. And when they look back. Now, if you Google KCP's career earnings right now from that date, you tell me what it is. You want me to do it, I'll do it. Yeah, do it. But you gotta have the willingness to do that perk and, you know. Yeah.

[C]

And you got to have the confidence to do it, too.

[A]

And I believed it. And guess what? We went up and down and up, and Casey went 18 to 8, to 12, to 15, to 22, like. But again, we. We tied at the hip. I'm like, you think I don't want. You think I don't want to get paid too, right?

[C]

I'm gonna say this to you. You don't gotta comment.

[B]

Pardon me. Perkins has earned approximately 148 million in NBA salary across his 13 seasons.

[C]

Yeah, straight up. Yeah, but. But look, before we go, I gotta say this. First of all, hey, man, y' all doing outstanding job. Straight up. Thank you personally. Y' all max. You all the time. Rich. You sometime. All right.

[A]

I expect that, though. I expect that.

[C]

I'm gonna leave with this. I'm gonna leave you with this. Hey, and this is my own personal opinion. I don't need ad. Anthony Davis, last part of his career being a journeyman. I feel like Washington. Listen to me.

[A]

Okay, I'm listening. I'm listening.

[C]

I'm not blaming. I'm not saying it's you. I'm saying this is in this moment because I know you're able to start talking on August 6th. Okay. About ad and contract extension. I do my homework. Listen, Anthony Davis still is a 25 and 12, two block guy a night. He needs to embrace Washington, make that his home, get that contract extension and go show the world who the fuck he is. I still believe in ad.

[B]

Can I tell you something about that real quick? What's crazy about ad? You know, when the brand name doesn't match the production anymore? This happens in the NFL a lot. Oh, we got so and so. Yeah. That was three years ago. He was good, right? Ad's brand right now, at the moment, for whatever reason, is not as strong as the actual production when he is healthy. To me, I don't see a difference. Between now and five years ago, looks like the same guy to me. AD when he is healthy is impossible.

[A]

Forget about. Yeah, he's a problem. But Perk, I want to say something to you. Watch your mouth, man. Don't come at me like that. Perk. I'm just saying. No, I'm joking. What I'm saying to you is. No, no, no, no. Here's what I'm saying. A.D. have you seen him? Have you seen A.D. he look phenomenal. Okay? So I don't have to say anything. And I'll tell you this. We're not focused on anything but basketball ball. He's embracing the organization. He was at summer league. They had all 17 guys there. I'm not going to say nothing. I'm going to let the basketball do nothing.

[B]

If I was Philadelphia, I would see if I could get an MBAD thing going right now. Right now.

[A]

I'm just telling you AD is focused on the game. And I believe, and I'm telling you this right now, Perkins, AD is going to have an MVP type season.

[C]

Oh, I believe it.

[B]

If he can just play 65 games. That's the whole key.

[A]

I'm telling you.

[C]

The ad that I saw is in great shape. The body fat is down. The AD that I'm looking, that I saw.

[B]

Hey, man, listen, you mentioned, you mentioned KG earlier. AD was the first guy to come along after KG who could guard the pick and roll. He could guard both guys at the same time. It's insane. Just the defense is insane.

[C]

Anthony Davis, Max Rich is the most skilled big that I've ever seen.

[A]

I would agree with that.

[B]

Both sides of the floor.

[C]

You're saying he's the most skilled, most versatile big that I've ever seen. Playmate.

[A]

He has it all. He has everything. He's another one with a wardrobe, but. But a big. He has everything.

[B]

If not for his health, because he was on a trajectory early to be remembered as the best power forward ever. It'd be him or Duncan. If not for his health, he would be considered.

[A]

The thing about that's misleading. He's never had a surgery. It's just knickknack stuff every year. It's sometimes knickknack stuff.

[B]

So what happens when you're 14ft tall, man?

[A]

I'm excited about this year for him and. And we're focused on the basketball. I'm telling you, talk to him. I'm telling you, he's locked.

[B]

You think if he shaved the middle of the eyebrow it would fix everything? Is that a thing? You know what I mean, just separate the eyebrows. Let's just see what happens. It's never gonna happen.

[A]

He's locked in. Perk. It's funny you called that out because when I talk to AD he's either going or coming from working out. Prime example. We was in Vegas. And I'm going, you know, I'm going to golf. Six a.m. i'm going to the summit. I said, A.D. i got a, I got a tee time at the summit. You know, he's like, damn. He's like, man, I gotta work out at 10. Let me see, 7. If you tee off at 6:30, but it was 7. Maybe I could play nines it. Then he goes, you know what? Now I'm good. I'm good too. Yeah, I'm good too.

[B]

Not everyone else is as addicted to golf as you.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no.

[B]

I know AD Works hard, but that's because you're, you're a golf junkie.

[C]

Let me find out.

[B]

You have an issue.

[C]

You didn't tell me about your golf addiction.

[B]

Oh, it's, it's an issue, Perk. It's an issue.

[A]

It's a real issue.

[B]

It's an issue. It's an official addiction. I think we have to have an intervention soon.

[A]

I got to sit down with Gary Player and Jack Nicklaus. Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a real issue, man.

[B]

It's an issue. He will forego sleep. You know how like you can do experiments with like mice and cocaine and they'll take the cocaine instead of the food and they'll just die? Right? That's like golf with Rich. Golf will, Rich will play golf till he just die. He'll pass away. Rich, you want to eat? No, no, I'm playing golf. It's a problem.

[A]

I don't know what golf is. I don't know what sleep is.

[B]

Yeah, no, no.

[A]

Perk. I'm. If Perk, if you want to get me to do anything, make it about golf. I, I have shirts, hats, bag tags, sleeves of different types of golf balls. And, and, and Perk.

[B]

I got to do shows sometimes at six in the morning, cuz this dude has to go golfing. So I, he doesn't say it's golf, but I always know it's golf.

[A]

Oh, you figured it out, Max.

[B]

Yeah, I figured it out.

[A]

Who gave me up? It was Dean. Didn't gave you up.

[B]

I knew it. I knew. I knew it since day one. What are you talking about? No one said anything. No one said anything, Perk.

[A]

I, I, I love it, man. I love it. I'm not gonna lie. But, Perk, I want to listen, man, thank you for doing this. We know your sketch, how busy your schedule is. This was great.

[B]

Yeah. Perk, you are one of the best people I've ever seen do it in the media, period.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In an individual sport, you say, here's this guy for the. Like you are. And to me, you say, it was a long build for you, but for me, it was obvious from day one when I was at espn. When I was at espn, anytime they gave a who do you want on? I'd be like, go find out if Perk is around.

[A]

Man, getting all this money ain't bought me a grilled cheese sandwich, Treated me to a grilled cheese and tomato soup. Nothing. Zero. It's cool. I know who to call. I go right around you. I don't have to worry about calling you. I'm good. I know who to call. All right, listen, it's all good.

[B]

Even after now, he's a big star. He still comes in. He remembers where he. He remembers the people on his way up.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

We appreciate that, Perk. You're doing a hell of a job, man.

[C]

Appreciate it, man.

[B]

All right.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

Kendrick Perkins, ladies.

[A]

Game [e-mail] came over with Max, said, hey, you was on Game over because you got all them followers and subscribers.

[C]

All you gotta do is collab with me.

[A]

Yeah, we need some of that collaboration.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And by the way, you could leave us a voicemail. 424-240-8341. We haven't done one in a minute.

[A]

Playing the pick four. Perk 8341. 10 and 10. I played my pick four yesterday. Over the phone.

[B]

Yeah, basically all golf is done. It's replaced. It's replaced your. Your addiction to dice and stuff like that. You always have to be addicted to some hobby or some vice, right? And golf is just your new diagram.

[A]

Nice golf bath, bro. I ordered some new clubs today. They came out with the all black talents. Beautiful. All right, there you go.

[B]

Thanks, Perky.