Knicks Dominate, Joel Embiid’s Future, and Is Shohei Ohtani the GOAT?

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Knicks Dominate, Joel Embiid’s Future, and Is Shohei Ohtani the GOAT?
Date: May 11, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul break down the NBA playoffs with a focus on the surging New York Knicks, the fallout for Joel Embiid and the Philadelphia 76ers, and the complexities of evaluating Shohei Ohtani’s place in baseball history. They also touch on the draft combine experience, front-office philosophies, and the power of fandom—plus, engaging quick hits on watch culture and listener Q&A.

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Key Discussion Points

NBA Combine & Inside Agent Life

• Rich Paul’s firsthand look at the combine (01:24)
  • Meets with 18–20 teams depending on the free agent class.
  • Emphasizes the evolving importance of mandatory athletic testing.
  • “The most important part of the combine are the interviews...that’s where each player gets a kind of like a lottery-selected group of teams.” (Rich Paul, 03:00)
  • Chicago’s brief but beautiful spring/fall weather sparks friendly banter.

Knicks’ Domination & Playoff Analysis

• Knicks Sweep the Sixers (19:00–26:00)
  • Knicks dismantled both the Hawks and Sixers, showcasing playoff-depth and chemistry.
  • “Their best player is 6ft tall ... but they have playoff performers.” (Max Kellerman, 19:00)
  • Rich lauds team camaraderie, energy at team hotel, and bench contributions.
  • “They didn’t even miss OG for two games.” (Rich Paul, 21:36)
  • Celeb row—Spike Lee, Fat Joe, Chalamet—transplants to Philly highlights passionate Knicks fan presence in enemy territory.
  • Notable Quote: “Is that the number one fanbase in basketball? Knicks fans by far. They travel the best.” (Max Kellerman, 25:50)

Series Matchups & Coaching Influence

• Playoff Matchup Deep Dive (27:51–34:01)
  • Max: Knicks’ best title shot since 1994 depends on matchups—prefer Spurs over Thunder in finals.
  • Rich: “It's all about matchups. You have to have the depth to fight any style.” (28:11)
  • Discussion on coaching: Mike Brown’s impact vs. Tom Thibodeau’s intensity and burnout history.
    • “Excellent and great are parallel. No—championship is championships.” (Rich Paul, 33:27)
    • Max: “There’s a certain level of intensity you can coach with that can burn a team out.” (35:59)

Wembanyama’s Ejection & “Bullying” Superstar Mentality

• Wemby Flagrant 2 and Playoff Impact (10:03–14:33)
  • Max admires Wemby’s physical edge: “When you have a guy with the skill, the size, and also the bully ... good luck.” (10:03)
  • Rich: “You don't want the game to be dirty. You don't mind getting the boots muddy a little bit.” (12:29)
  • Agrees refs had no choice but to eject; Series now 2–2.
  • Discussion on referees treating Wemby like Shaq/LeBron—do their physical gifts cost them calls?
  • Notable Quote: “I’ve been a part of that guy getting beat up every year and refs not calling it.” (Rich Paul, 14:33)

The Joel Embiid Conundrum & Tanking Fallout

• Embiid’s Paradoxical Value (39:50–47:22)
  • Max: “Has there ever been a guy like that, who’s not old … and who has negative trade value?” (41:54)
    • Embiid’s massive salary, never-healthy track record, and how he can’t fit most teams’ plans—despite his elite play.
  • Rich: “He's at the beginning of a three-year extension… very tough to move.” (42:58)
  • Deep dive on ‘The Process’ and the dangers of acclimating talent to losing cultures.
    • “It’s just not good for the basketball soul to plant a seed in that and you first start growing.” (Rich Paul, 45:18)
  • Philosophical talk: Would top picks choose a winning environment over immediate stardom?

Draft Lottery & Team Strategies

• Pacers’ Tank Goes Sideways (47:22–50:17)
  • Pacers miss a draft pick due to tiebreakers and Zubac trade protection; “too clever by half, karmic justice.”
  • Wizards land #1; Rich jokes about Anthony Davis always being linked to lottery fortunes.
    • “If you want the number one pick, get Anthony Davis.” (Rich Paul, 50:42)
• Debate Over #1 Pick: Demanza, Peterson, or Wilson? (51:24–55:01)
  • Projecting comps for prospects: Demanza likened to Pascal Siakam (floor) or Paul George (ceiling), Peterson as “Devin Booker smooth.”
  • Max: “Number one overall pick, I want a guy who I believe can be the best player on a championship team.” (53:57)
  • Rich: “It's three guys in this draft like that … it can go either way.” (54:54)

Get Rich Quick: Audemars Piguet x Swatch Collaboration

• Luxury Brand Moves (57:27–61:01)
  • Rich raves about AP’s Swatch partnership making luxury accessible for young future high-end consumers.
  • “Why buy the fake Audemars for 10,000 when you can buy an actual Audemars Swatch for 300?” (Rich Paul, 60:43)
  • Brand-building, pricing, and how collaborations seed aspirations.
  • Max: “You can justify dropping a lot of money on a watch if it holds value.” (60:11)

Quick Hits: Lakers, Coaching Futures, Listener Q&A

• Lakers on the Brink (61:30–64:21)
  • Lakers overachieved; “LeBron has really helped his free agency ... he might make the All-NBA team.” (62:21)
  • Max: “This Lakers season…is an unqualified success.”
• Warriors Re-Up with Kerr (64:29–64:57)
  • Rich: “That’s the ultimate respect they can give Steph and Draymond.”
• Listener Q&A
  • Sports broadcasting, agency recruiting, most underrated live sporting event (“Your kid’s JV basketball game”), and Mount Rushmore of ringless NBA greats (“Barkley, Mello, AI, Grant Hill”—Rich Paul, 70:58).
• Shohei Ohtani: All-Time Baseball Debate (71:16–75:01)
  • Caller raves about Ohtani as the GOAT; Max pushes back: “What Shohei is doing is harder than anyone has ever done. ... But that does not make him the best baseball player or even yet a top 10 player of all time.” (71:56)
  • Rich: “He is a hell of a baseball player…if he keeps this up, he'll be in the top three.” (73:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the NBA Combine (03:00):

  • “Now they’ve made that [athletic testing] mandatory for players. ... But the most important part of the combine are the interviews.” — Rich Paul

• On Wemby’s Attitude (10:03):

  • “When you have a guy who has character, all the skills, size… and they’re also the bully? Good luck.” — Max Kellerman

• On Knicks Fans in Philly (23:00):

  • “It was like 70–30, which I was a little surprised at…that won’t happen for the Eagles or the Flyers.” — Rich Paul

• On Knicks Playoff Run (27:51):

  • “The Knicks have the best shot at a championship they’ve had since ‘94.” — Max Kellerman

• On Coaching Burnout (35:59):

  • “There’s a certain level of intensity you can coach with that can burn a team out.” — Max Kellerman

• On Embiid’s Value (41:54):

  • “A player who, when healthy, is in the conversation for best in the game…but has negative trade value?” — Max Kellerman

• On Brand Collaborations (60:43):

  • “Why buy the fake Audemars for 10,000 when you can buy an actual Audemars Swatch for 300?” — Rich Paul

• On Shohei Ohtani’s Greatness (71:56):

  • “What Shohei is doing is harder than anyone has ever done. ... But that does not make him the best baseball player or even yet a top 10 player of all time.” — Max Kellerman

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• NBA Combine & Agent Insights – 01:24–04:49
• Wemby Ejection & Mentality – 10:03–14:33
• Knicks’ Playoff Surge – 19:00–26:00
• Fan Takeover & Knicks Fandom – 23:00–26:19
• Playoff Matchups & Coaching Analysis – 27:51–37:43
• Joel Embiid / “The Process” Fallout – 39:50–47:22
• Draft Lottery Fallout & #1 Pick Debate – 47:22–55:01
• Get Rich Quick (AP x Swatch) – 57:27–61:01
• Lakers Wrap-Up & Coaching Futures – 61:30–64:57
• Listener Q&A (various sports topics) – 66:30–75:01
• Shohei Ohtani’s Legacy – 71:16–75:01

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Tone & Language

Light, banter-filled, thoughtful, and often irreverent with deep dives into sports business, team composition, and fan culture. Both hosts blend expertise and humor, making complex topics accessible and lively.

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Summary

This episode stands out as a sports-savvy, insider’s guide to the ongoing NBA playoffs, blending strategic breakdowns, off-the-court intrigue, smart business takes, and spirited debates on greatness. If you missed the show, this summary will catch you up on the major storylines—Knicks’ momentum, Embiid’s basketball legacy, prospects at the draft, and why Shohei Ohtani’s historical impact is uniquely complicated.

Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them, right? You're gonna do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it [e-mail] gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com gameover that's ZipRecruiter.com gameOver meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Rich, where are you right now?

[Rich Paul]

Right now, I've been all over the place, Max, but right now I'm in Chicago. I'm at the NBA combine. That's where I met every year for the last. I don't know how many years. I stopped counting. It's going well, you know, at the NBA combine when I'm here, Max, I probably meet with, depending on free agent class and things like that, I probably meet with about 29, 30 teams. But on average it's about 18 to 20 teams depending on the class. So you have that component of it. You meet with teams, existing players on their roster, seeing how they doing, anything you need to adjust, so on and so forth. We have a group of people here from the company. And then you also have the young men and their families that's going into the draft. And so I was not here for the lottery. Obviously I was at a game. But you have them and their families here and then, you know, they go through their process nowadays. See, I didn't used to send players to the combine. I wouldn't send them to the combine.

[Max Kellerman]

The NBA combine is not a big deal compared to like the NFL combine. It does get covered the same way.

[Rich Paul]

No, it doesn't, but. But it is a big deal. Well, there's no 40 time, number one. So I think in the NFL combine, the 40 is the big asset.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but in the NBA combine, it's the vert.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but not really. Nobody cares about a vert like you care about a 40.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's what I mean. It should. They should. Like, vert is super. If you think the fans don't want, like, if that became a thing where everyone knows everyone's vert, they should market that better.

[Rich Paul]

To me, prior to a couple years ago, the reason why they have the combine, a lot of it, is one, players play that don't have necessary the cachet that others players have. So you're trying to gain some. Some ground there. You do do testing. There's a. There's a testing, shooting, agility, you know, vert, all that type of stuff. So now they've made that mandatory for players. It didn't used to be. And I used to opt out of all of that. I wouldn't even send my guys to combine. The most important part of the combine are the interviews. And that's where each player gets a kind of like a lottery selected group of teams that the teams, you know, send a bid into the NBA. The NBA spits back out what the schedule look like. You could be on the guy's list. You could be not. You could not be. And so that's one aspect of it as well. That's the most important aspect to me, outside of the guys that need to play this playing. But the interviews is where you really gain ground as a prospect. And so I'm here. It's all week. It's a long week in Chicago, but Chicago is one of my favorite cities, especially when the weather's nice. And so it's a good time to catch up with guys. Every team is here, all their staff is here. So it's good.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this one of my favorite, favorite cities? When the weather's nice, like for eight days a year, it's like a crazy city.

[Rich Paul]

As long as it's the eight days that I'm here.

[Max Kellerman]

Chicago gets so free. It's like. It's like a worse version of New York's weather. So freezing in the winter, it's so hot and humid because of the lake in the summer, you know, you got about. You got about seven days in spring and seven days in fall.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but Chicago is a great city. Great city. But Max. Yo, let me. Let me say something.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So I was in Philly for.

[Max Kellerman]

I was the New York takeover.

[Rich Paul]

It was a New York takeover. I couldn't believe how many New York fans were there. It was like 70, 30, which I was a little surprised at that. Because it's Philadelphia, Phil. That won't happen for the Eagles. I don't believe that. Or the Flyers. And it probably shouldn't happen for the Sixers.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't.

[Rich Paul]

I think there'll be changes coming in the future about that, but nevertheless. So I get a call from Wallow, right? You know, our friends over at Gillian Wallow. Million dollars worth of game. Gillian Wallow. So I get a call from Wallow, and quite naturally, what do they want to talk about? Who's the goat? I'm so tired of this question, who's the goat? Whatever. So me being me, I'm having a conversation. Your guy Bill Haney's there. He says he's gonna come on the show. Bill Haney's. Devin's dad?

[Max Kellerman]

Devin Haney's show?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. He wants to come on the show.

[Max Kellerman]

This is how old I am. When we ran into Devin Haney at Carbone on the beach in Miami, you know, it used to be when I first got into the industry, I'm like, 25 years old, doing Friday Night Fights, and the fighters were my age. And sometimes, you know, at a social situation, we'd have stuff to talk about. Now I run into a fighter, and the first thing I'm like, is your dad here? You know, I have someone to talk to. If Bill is there, I got someone to talk to.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Well, you know, keep living, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You look good. Yeah. And so they called me, and quite naturally, you know, I pick up what's going on. Oh, man. Who you got? And it's a bunch of people in the background. So I'm thinking we're just having this conversation, but I always protect myself anyway. But we're just having this conversation. And so we get into it, and I try to have a. You know me. I can't just have a surface level breakdown. So I go into this idea of how it's less about who's the bet, who. Who's the. Who's the goat or who's the best, and more about why they are, who they become. And so we got into this again. It was a long time.

[Max Kellerman]

You're getting into the philosophy of what's going on. Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It was a long. It was a long conversation. But the thing about. I wasn't worried about the conversation. The conversation was good. We had fun with it. And it was. And it was. And obviously, I think, you know, when you look up the word basketball player, you see LeBron James name. Like, you look up the word basketball. If you just. If Webster. Define basketball. Player, it would be LeBron James.

[Max Kellerman]

Agreed. And if you look up goat, it would be Michael Jordan. But go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, you can say that. But more importantly, I didn't know that I was being recorded.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, oh, oh. Content. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And so I look up and I said to Gillian Wallow, I said, hey, man, you're gonna have to hear from my lawyers. Because I really believe nowadays when you're talking to people.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, wait, wait. Was it live?

[Rich Paul]

It wasn't live.

[Max Kellerman]

So how'd you jump to lawyers? Just be like, guys, you can't. You. Did you tell them they can't use it? And they said they're gonna use it anyway?

[Rich Paul]

No, they didn't ask.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So. So now obviously they're not going to put nothing out. That was if I would have said something messed up. But the point I'm trying to make is nowadays when you're talking to somebody, you really have to ask. You have to ask, hey, man, am I being recorded?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You have to. And then you have to say to them, you don't have consent. Or if you say to them you do have consent, you have to then ask, what are you using this for? Because there's no more barbershop.

[Max Kellerman]

It's the world we live in.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. There's no more barbershop talk amongst men. Those days are over with. Everything is content.

[Max Kellerman]

We should start the show. But really, what you're talking about is a whole sociological phenomenon called back room and front room issues. And now with social media, all your backroom issues are right in the front, all the bedroom issues right in the living room, and you could be in trouble. Game over is brought to you by fanduel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc. All right, Rich, we got a lot to get through today because a whole bunch of stuff has happened since Friday when we were last together.

[Rich Paul]

Wembley, I have a packed schedule.

[Max Kellerman]

I hear you. Likewise, wemby. Ejected after an elbow on Nas Reed. The T Wolves go on to win the game. What? Let me just tell you, I'm going to give you my reaction to it. I want to hear what you have to say. I loved it. I it was illegal, it was dirty. He had to be ejected. It was a flagrant too. Even if they suspend, they're not going to suspend him for another game in the playoffs because he missed a lot of that game already. But even if they did, I would understand it. All that stuff. Can't do it. I get it. But let me tell you why I actually loved that play from Wemby. There is when you have a guy who has character, right, who has all the skills, who has a size, a physical advantage in sports and they're also the bully. Good luck. First time I ever saw Bud Crawford fight live, like in person was a fight I called of his on hbo. He's beating the brakes off a big puncher named Bratis Prescott. He keeps hitting him low. On top of outboxing him, he's hitting him low. Prescott turns to the referee to complain and Bud tells him, man, stop being a bitch. And I thought, oh, oh, this guy can box like that. And he's tough like that. And then he's also the bully cuz you're grown up, taught hey, the bully. When you stand up to them, they back down and blah blah blah cuz they don't have character. But what about when the guy does have character and he is the most skilled and he is the biggest and the baddest and he's also going to bully you? It's like the rich then, okay, go ahead, try to rough him up. Try to get up underneath him, right? Which is what guys do defensively on Wemby, you might have to catch a savage elbow to the head. He's going to make ahead come in. There's a price to pay. It's the same thing in him. To me, even though I'm not condoning dirty play, I'm telling you what it tells me about him. It's the same thing where when he plays Chet Holmgren, he doesn't want to just beat him, he wants to humiliate him. When the when the guy who's 7 foot 5 and can play like a guard has that thing in him, good luck. That's my take.

[Rich Paul]

No, look, I was watching the game in real time and it was a physical game and I saw what Mitch Johnson came out and talked about. Basically if the refs are going to allow you to play that physical, like he has to protect himself.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Look, you don't want the game to be muddied up or take that back. You don't want the game to be dirty. You don't mind getting the boots muddy a little bit. And sometimes it. It, it. It takes that a sharp elbow is strong. So we. We got to be careful there because

[Max Kellerman]

luckily could hurt somebody.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, Nazri wasn't hurt, but. But I do understand, you know, just the, The. The frustration and the. And the want to send a message. With that being said, that series is now tied. 2, 2 going back to San Antonio. And as I told you before, the Timberwolves, they've been here before two of the last three years, they've been in the Western Conference finals, so they're battle tested and you know they're going to continue to fight. But yeah, the Wemby ejection, I think the refs was left with no choice once you saw the replay. But I don't think he should be suspended.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a dirty play. He deserves punishment. I agree. I don't think they will suspend. If they did, I wouldn't blame them. But there's something about it that told me something about Wemby that I actually like, and not even just in spite of that, but because of it. People are like, oh, that's sending the wrong message. I'm just. I'm sorry. I'm telling you my reaction to it. What did you think about coaches saying about. About Mitch Johnson saying that essentially what he's saying, without using the words, is that Wemby is treated by the refs? Because I disagree with this point specifically, but maybe generally there's a theme I agree with. He's essentially saying that Wemby's treated by the refs the way Shaq and LeBron were. In other words, he's such a physical phenomenon that they're not going to blow the whistle on stuff. Technically that they should, because what else are you going to do with Wemby? I don't see that with Wemby the same way I saw it with Shaq or LeBron, who were Brolic. Right. Like, the refs were like, come on, man, I'm not going to blow the whistle on that. So I don't think it's exactly that. But not that he used Shaq and LeBron as references, but that's what I thought of. But I do see it as, okay, if they're going to get physical with Wemby, he's going to make him pay a Price?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, right before that, the commentators were talking about how his arms was so marked up from all of the, you know, the physicality. And so, look, I think Mitch, obviously, someone who's played the game and understands the moment at stake, he has to protect his players for sure. But, you know, I've been a part of that guy getting beat up every year and refs not calling it, and we've seen the best of him when he got extremely angry and decided to become the bully.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? Yeah, right. Shaq and LeBron. All right, meantime, you brought up Anthony Edwards. He dropped 36. They know Wemby's out of the game. They tie it up. But. And I know his bad knees right now, so he's taking. You know, he's not maybe driving as much, and he's shooting the three a little bit more than would be my preference, but he's getting it done. This is how I feel about Anthony Edwards right now, Rich. And it's the same thing I said about Jokic. When they were down. We were doing a show live, like it was happening as. As we were doing the show. You had the game on your phone. It was late in the fourth quarter, minute 50 to go, they're down two possessions. I'm talking about the Nuggets now. And I said, okay, here it is. Jokic, these scripts are not written. The players write the scripts. Go win the game. Now. He failed to do so. Okay? And that counts against him. It's not that, of course. Almost every player in history in that situation, you probably lose that game. But when you're talking about the very greatest players ever, when you are. Not that Jokic is intentionally doing this, but when what you do will affect how people think of your place in history forever, that stuff counts in high leverage moments. Let's see you do it. I felt the same thing about Embiid. He's always hurt. We're going to get to Embiid in a minute. But. But just briefly. He's always hurt and this and that. However, he's healthy right now. He's got some horses with him. It's unlikely they beat the Knicks because they running into a buzzsaw, but go do it. Go do the unlikely thing right. LeBron had to beat that Golden State warriors team. Muhammad Ali had to knock out George Foreman, Sonny Liston. You want to be among the greatest of all time, or whether or not you want that. We will rate you among the greatest of all time. We. When you can overcome the huge obstacle. So here is Ant Edwards. It's tied two. Two only because probably the, you know, Wemby gets ejected. But nevertheless, we're more than halfway through a series and it's tied up against a very intimidating in terms of their talent and their skill. Spurs team, you're the underdog. Your knees aren't great right now. Go, Ant, go do it now. Take the next step so that you can start to go win a chip so we can start to compare you at least to Dwyane Wade and guys like that. It's there for him. Write the script, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, look, I mean, you know, this is what you, you live for these opportunities. Series tied to. When I was a kid, you know, these are the guys that we grew up admiring. They did those things. And so the opportunity is there. We'll see what happens. But it's going to be tough going back to San Antonio. I actually thought San Antonio had that game last night prior to. Well, what I would say is I actually thought that when you're on the road and they were playing a pretty good game, it was a really good game and both teams are kind of showing their resilience. And then obviously once Wemby went down, I think San Antonio still stayed in there for a good minute and then obviously Ant was able to take the step. But I thought a lot of Minnesota's role players played well down the stretch in key moments, especially defensively. And you know, look, it's one of those series. I always thought this series would be a six game series anyway. I said that at the beginning. You thought it was a little bit less, but you know, the Timberwolves are just scrappy, man. They're a scrappy team.

[Max Kellerman]

And if Wemby misses two games, you know, if he did miss two games, if Wemby misses two games, if you were like, hey, Wemby's not going to play two games through four, what's the series going to be? I'd be like, yeah, probably two. Two, you know, that's how it goes.

[Rich Paul]

I know, but yeah, well, okay, that's fair.

[Max Kellerman]

So the Knicks swept the Sixers. It was an all time dominant performance. And even backing up, you could see from the Hawks series, the Hawks win two games by a point. The Knicks were beating the hell out of the Hawks like and, and it got worse and worse as the series went along. Historically, great performances. And then they. So the Sixers ran into a buzzsaw in the Knicks who are playing the best. Well, the two teams playing the best team ball right now. I don't think you'll disagree Are the Knicks and the Thunder. Thunder just have more talent. They're a better team. Right? So they'd be favored. But the Knicks are playing at the highest level. It seems that they are possibly capable of playing. They're, they're hitting, they're firing on all cylinders at the right time. And I think partly that's because when you look at the way the team is constructed, look, I have certain problems with the construction of the team. Their best player is 6ft tall. You know, stuff like. But they have playoff performers. Rich. If you look at Mitch Mitchell Robinson, he's a good regular season performer. I love him in the playoffs. He makes winning plays. If you look at especially Mikhail Bridges, who they should never have traded five first round picks for, that's an awful trade. However, he is a. He didn't have a great year this year, but he's normally a good player in the regular season. But this is a pattern now throughout his career. He is excellent in the playoffs. And so when you have Brunson and, and Cat and OG who you look at, you go, okay, I can expect really good stuff from them. And then you have playoff performers in role positions. You get something like this, look.

[Rich Paul]

The Knicks seem very well, I would say cohesive. The cohesiveness as a team is there. The camaraderie as a team is there. You know, I, I stayed in the hotel that they were in and you can, you know, just the energy that was there for that, for that side of the series were just. We believe in ourselves, we believe in our game plan. This is, this is us showing that, hey, we want this. You can see it on the floor. Even. Like you mentioned in a series before, I think it might have been the Lakers Rocket series, where you have the opportunity to, to come out and end the series like you send that message. That game was over by halftime. By the SEC, they had 50 points in the first quarter of yesterday's game. And when you talk about Mitchell Robinson, I watched Max. The guy gets every offensive.

[Max Kellerman]

It is crazy how he's a great playoff performer, just.

[Rich Paul]

But, but he takes up so much space and he gets his hand on every rebound. Then the Knicks shot the ball so well. I mean, they had to be shooting. I don't know what they shot from three. I mean, Deuce McBride went crazy yesterday. You know, guys like Clarkson coming off the bench. And we're forgetting one thing, Max. There was no OG for two games, right? Didn't even miss him. They didn't even miss him. They didn't, they, they didn't Even miss OG at all for two games.

[Max Kellerman]

And OG is easily their third best player.

[Rich Paul]

Landry Shamit comes off the bench, hasn't played in five games, comes off the bench, shooting the ball extremely well. You know, Bronson's. Bronson, we understand that. And Cat, although he's not scoring a ton of points, he's doing a lot great.

[Max Kellerman]

He's playing.

[Rich Paul]

I'm saying he's doing it. He's.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

He's.

[Rich Paul]

He's doing a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

High IQ basketball from Cat.

[Rich Paul]

Josh Hart's flying around like he's a.

[Max Kellerman]

He's, like he always does.

[Rich Paul]

Like he's a strong safety in the AFC East. Like, it's crazy. And, you know, and look, the Sixers have a long way to go. It's what I took from that series.

[Max Kellerman]

So. So you were there.

[Rich Paul]

I was there.

[Max Kellerman]

70% of the. Of the fans were Knicks Fans in Philly.

[Rich Paul]

70%, yes, it was.

[Max Kellerman]

And Joel Embiid, before the series started, was encouraging the Sixers fans and trying to get people to show up. New York took over.

[Rich Paul]

When you think about it, though, Max, I mean, the. I don't know if this is the correct data, but I imagine the, the gap between, you know, just financial if.

[Max Kellerman]

And the proximity of Philly's an hour and a half away.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but if I'm a Philly fan and my tickets are $500 a game, and a New York fan reaches out and they want to pay me $3,500 a game because that same ticket in the garden is 10,000. And so. And they're like, we're getting a deal. By the way. We're. We're not even counting for the New York fan that wasn't able to afford the ticket at the Garden.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. That's gonna be much cheaper to go in Philly.

[Rich Paul]

Yep, in Philly. Huge incentive. That's a huge incentive for a train ride. For 46. Train ride or 64, whatever it is.

[Max Kellerman]

Great take. Jump on the Acela there In an hour 10, whatever it is, or jump

[Rich Paul]

in this wagoneer and hit 95 south. How about that?

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, and if you said, what is the world's capital of money? The capital of money in the world is New York City. The only stock market that's comparable is in London. Really. But New York is really the financial capital of the world, and Philly is, you know, within an hour and a half, it's within spitting distance. And you make the right point. It's so much more cost effective for a Knicks fan to just go watch the game in Philly. Everything worked out. Now look, same way, it's cost effective

[Rich Paul]

if you work in New York and you live in Philadelphia.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? Yeah, so, so.

[Rich Paul]

But let me say this, Max. Yeah, let me say this before you, before you go ahead. Here's the other thing. The New York fan is a New York fan. There's no vanity there. Let me tell you why Spike was sitting in the second row, third row. He wasn't sitting on the floor.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Al Pelagonia, you know, he has his court sides at the Garden, him and Spike. Neither one of those guys was sitting on the floor.

[Max Kellerman]

They were sitting thorough Fat Joe and Jada.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Chalamet was actually sitting, sitting on the floor, but he didn't have.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm saying it's the same, it's the same celebrity row just transplanted to Philly.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Ben Stiller's there, Tracy Morgan's there. They were there. My guy, Jeff Zelasnik from major food group, he was there with his family yesterday. So they're coming down and it's not like this bougie thing. We're coming to support the Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

We want to win.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that the number one fan base in basketball? Is it? The New York Knicks fans, by far. They travel the best. They, they're the loudest. They give you the best home court advantage. They give you.

[Rich Paul]

They're like, they're like Kentucky fans when Kentucky's good and ncaa. When Kentucky's good, their fans travel rich.

[Max Kellerman]

I said this months and months ago. To me, the Knicks have the best shot at a championship they've had since 94 where they barely lost to the Rockets, who wound up being back to back champs in, in, in MJ's absence. Um, the, the, the reason I like. Well, let me give the scenario. I don't think they're going to beat the Thunder. If the Knicks get past this, past the Pistons, you know, and wind up in the finals and it's the Thunder who come out. I don't love that matchup for the Knicks because the Thunder are bigger, deeper, more talented and they play as much of team ball as the Knicks. Right. The Knicks are running into another cohesive team. They're just bigger and better and more talented and faster and all that stuff. So I don't like that matchup. But the spurs matchup if Wemby can stay on the court and the spurs bounce the T Wolves and then the spurs bounce the Thunder, which I think is possible. I do. I know you can't take everything from the regular season, but I like the Knicks chances I'm not saying they make them the favorite, but I like their chances against the spring spurs because what the Knicks do when they play the spurs and they've beaten them this year at the Garden, they've beaten them in San Antonio and they beat them in a neutral court because of the in season tournament. Right. They've beaten them three different places and I think maybe they, they went 3 and 1. What the Knicks do to the spurs is they chew up the clock so they slow the pace down and then they have the ability to consistently hit shots late in the shot clock. So when they're doing that, basically it comes down to if Josh Hart, Mikhail Bridges, if their three ball is falling, I think they could possibly beat the Spurs. If it's the spurs, they find they play in the finals.

[Rich Paul]

If it becomes the Spurs Knicks, I do think it'll be a better series than if it was Thunder Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But I do think that the Knicks would much rather play Cleveland than Detroit because Detroit matches up and they played the Knicks very, very well.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

When they, when those two teams meet

[Max Kellerman]

in the regular season. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So like I always say, Max, it's all about matchups. But you got to have the depth to fight any style. You just have to have that depth.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, Detroit gave him run last year when the Knicks were a better team than a much, much more seasoned team than Detroit. Detroit is now more seasoned than they were a year ago.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And for whatever reason, again, they just, they match up extremely well with the Knicks. I think Duran, as big as he is, he's also agile. You know, he can, he can move pretty quick laterally.

[Max Kellerman]

Sick Mitch on him in the playoffs starts a little different playoff Mitch is a little different though.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But then you got, you got, you got Stu Big Stewie guess too. You know, it's one of those old school Eastern Conference matchups. See, this is what I would love to see. And I think the NBA dropped the ball on this sometimes. Bring back when these two teams match up. Right. Like his Sixers Knicks show some of that old Sixers Knicks footage so the younger audience could have a better understanding of how we got here. It's the same way if he becomes Cavs Knicks trade on the history.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Detroit Knicks. Yeah, like show some of those old games. Educate these, this young audience with why. You know the video, the Microwave Johnson. Today he's a billionaire businessman, but yesterday he was the best six man in the league.

[Max Kellerman]

He was, he was the signature six man in the NBA. Vinny. The original. Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Six man Isaiah Thomas. And Joe D that back courted and people have a young Dennis Rodman. And when.

[Max Kellerman]

When Vinnie got the nickname, the microwave was kind of new still. It was like, yeah, the microwave was like, damn, you could. You could heat up a baked potato in a few minutes. Wow.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. That was the same way when it was Lakers, Rockets, obviously. But you know, Thunder is a newer team in, in. In the. In the league. But you use that opportunity. I think.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, Rich, before I want to. I want to touch on Mike Brown for a second. Because the Knicks were heading in the wrong direction. They look two years or not last season, but season four last, the Knicks were a better team than the Pacers. And when the Pacers beat them in the playoffs, the Knicks demonstrated they were better because they were playing with everyone on the team hurt. And it was still a tough series. Knicks were better than the Pacers, but the Pacers won due to injury. But the following year, the Pacers beat the Knicks because they were better than the Knicks. Like two years ago, Knicks were better. They lost because of injury. Last year the Knicks had started trending in the wrong direction and the Pacers started trending up. Right now, no shame in losing to the Pacers last year because the Pacers may have been champions. Last year, it was a tie game at the half in Game 7 against the Thunder, they lose their best player. They may have won that game. So I get it. It's no shame that. Okay, but it was still. It was like. But the Knicks were better than this team. And a year later, they're not as good as this team. And then they switch coaches. And now right when you need it most, the Knicks are playing the best, best team basketball in the NBA. Right. Don't you have to give the coach credit for that?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, look, I always give Mike Brown credit, but they're right back where they were last year, max. The Knicks. Only they weren't playing like this. Yeah, but they still. Results are results. They're gay. They're five. Mike Brown came in to win five games.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Who said that? I forgot. This is a great. Who said who. Who came up with the. Mike Brown came into. Was brought up.

[Rich Paul]

Cam said that to us.

[Max Kellerman]

Cam.

[Rich Paul]

Cam said that? By the way, we were having a conversation with Cam.

[Max Kellerman]

Cam, that's a bar. But of course it's Cam, Rod. So you would figure it's a bar.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he.

[Max Kellerman]

Mike Brown was brought in to win five games. Exactly right. It's exactly right.

[Rich Paul]

So at the end of the day, again, not taking that away from Mike Brown because He's a hell of a coach and he's doing a hell of a job. And you're right, the cohesiveness looks different. Right. But we also don't remember last year. We only remember what's right here in front of us and what we've been enduring right now. I will say that when you talk about the role, the role players are definitely more involved. The Clarksons, the Shamons, the McBrides. Those guys are definitely more involved.

[Max Kellerman]

And I don't want to hear about Colorado. I don't want to hear about minutes because people be like, yeah, but when you compare the minutes to last year and blah, blah, there's a certain intensity with their previous coach that has historically in. In teams he has coached burnt teams out around the second round of the playoffs. I don't. Look, it's not like I'm trying to

[Rich Paul]

know Tom Thibodeau done a great job though, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

I can't. I can't.

[Rich Paul]

I can't allow that. Thibodeau.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait a minute. Thibodeau is an excellent head coach. You cannot say he's a great head coach because his team.

[Rich Paul]

Well, what's the difference between excellent and great championships?

[Max Kellerman]

You know, like getting. Well, in that case, but getting the most out of your roster in the playoffs. I'm saying. I'm. I'm not saying Mike Brown is a great coach. We will see as a chance to be a great coach right now.

[Rich Paul]

No, excellent and great. Excellent and great are parallel. No championship coach is championships.

[Max Kellerman]

I think great is different. Is in boxing at least you don't just throw same box. You could say, you could say excellent. But when you say great Tom Thibodeau, his, His. His teams are just say really good,

[Rich Paul]

then say he's a really good coach.

[Max Kellerman]

Fine, really good. He. But they're frequently burnt by the. They're burnt by the second everyone.

[Rich Paul]

See, to me, you have to.

[Max Kellerman]

Have to. But look at how the Knicks are playing now. They're. That you want to be hot at this time of year, not burnt.

[Rich Paul]

Okay?

[Max Kellerman]

And they're hot right now. You got to give coach credit for that. You just. He trusts his rotation. Deeper rotations more.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but when you talk about being burnt, one minute we are complaining about load management, the next minute you're talking about being burnt.

[Max Kellerman]

Get it?

[Rich Paul]

Everybody's burnt. Everybody's burnt. Everybody's burnt at games.

[Max Kellerman]

No, Thibodeau teams are especially. Look, look, Rich, I know people especially who deal with all these people. Like, I know what it's like to have personal relationships with People in that you may be covering and you're not.

[Rich Paul]

Me and Tom Tibble, not best friends. I'm just being honest.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, but fine. I mean, but, I mean, but I mean, the fact is like I don't take pleasure in saying, man, James Harden has a problem in the playoffs. I didn't take pleasure in saying, hey, Steph Curry is not his normal self. He goes down a level until 2022 in, you know when it matters most. I don't. It's not. I take pleasure in saying it, but it's true. Tom Thibodeau teams are burnt by the second round of the play, Rich. That's a statement of fact.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but here's what I'm saying. I rather not use the excuse of being burnt because by game 100 max, everybody's burnt by the end of the 82.

[Max Kellerman]

Does this next team look burnt to you right now?

[Rich Paul]

No. By the end of, by the end of an 82 game season, everyone's not fully 100%.

[Max Kellerman]

But not, but not like a Tom Thibodeau team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I would rather just say he didn't get it. I don't even know where that came from. I would rather, I would rather you just say, hey, the expectation was to get it done. He did not get it done. So they brought somebody else in that they expect to now get it done.

[Max Kellerman]

But the why is important. Like there's a certain level of intensity you can coach with that can burn a team out. Even when you win championships. For example, in baseball, there is a manager, Billy Martin, who could turn a last place team with the same roster basically into a first place team in one year who you could win the World Series with. But after a year and a half, two, two and a half years, you got to get rid of them because everyone is finished.

[Rich Paul]

How many minutes is Jada? How many minutes? Let's pay attention to how many minutes they play when it matters most. I've watched a lot of games. Mike Brown is not. I know for a fact, given the fact that I represent Jordan Clarkson, I've been on the other side when he was not playing minutes because the starters were playing most of the minutes and Mike wasn't using the bench like he, like he probably would have liked to. I've been a part of those games where, oh, we forgot to put you in all of those type of things. So I'm just pushing back on the, on the term burnt.

[Max Kellerman]

But, but, but because people look and I've heard all the analysis, I've read it, they're Playing the same number of minutes and blah, blah, blah, blah. They're running the same number of miles. Whatever it is. I'm not just talking about the minutes you play. There's a certain kind of intensity with a coach that can burn you. And it's a pattern throughout Thibodeau's career. He gets the most out of a group in the regular season, but the intensity, whatever he's doing there, by. By the second round of the playoffs, they hit a wall. And I don't just mean based on. Well, they ran into a good team. Whatever. You can see, they flat. They're flat at a certain point. It's like when you. If you over train for something and Mike Brown's demeanor, whatever he's doing, he has them playing excellent defense. He has them playing efficient offense. And they seem fresh right now.

[Rich Paul]

They don't seem fresh.

[Max Kellerman]

Like that's. I'm just giving Mike Brown credit. I don't mean to dis him at all. I'm giving Mike Brown credit.

[Rich Paul]

No, no. But fresh comes with change in anything. If you put on new underwear, T shirt and socks, if they're brand new out the pack, you're going to feel better. Especially if you took a shower. I would. I would advise you to take a shower.

[Max Kellerman]

And they have the dye in them. Maybe you want to wash them before you put them on. They have the chemicals on them. You know what I mean? This episode's brought to you by McDonald's. Level up your day with the under $3 menu at McDonald's. A sausage McMuffin for just $1.50. And when it's time for lunch, grab a McDouble. Only 2.50 McValue makes sure you can power up without losing too many coins. $1.50 sausage McMuffin or 2.50 McDouble. Now that's a legendary drop. Get even more value with McValue. Only at McDonald's. I get to do this because I'm doing a McDonald's read. Ba da ba ba ba. How'd I do? Limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery.

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[Max Kellerman]

Can I give you a five minute max real quick?

[Rich Paul]

Sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Joel Embiid Rich I slept said like a month ago, whatever it was that Embiid may be, even though you don't think of him this way, the biggest what if in the history of basketball. Because usually we think of those guys in terms of acute injury. In Le Bias's case, tragedy. In Derrick Rose or Grant Hill's case, acute injury, after which they're forever changed. Right? They're never quite the same. Embiid. It's a million different things that result in him not staying healthy. But what is so interesting to me right now is I don't think in the history of basketball, including Bill Walton's case, it's ever been like this. You have a player who, when he's healthy, is a. Is like in the conversation for best player in the game when he's healthy because he can, he can change the offense on the other side with his defensive presence and he can carry the load offensively at a very high level, efficient. And even when he's prolific, he's getting, you know, his efficiency doesn't change just because he's shooting a lot, because he's, because he's scoring a lot. He's still efficient when he does it. And you can win with that. They got by the Celtics doing that. So there's that. Has there ever been a guy like that who's not old, who just played really well throughout the playoffs and who has negative trade value? He has negative trade value. He. If you tried to trade Joel Embiid, you would have to send draft capital the other way because partly because of how good he is, because if you have him on your team, he will fundamentally change your team when he plays and you will have to adjust to that. You cannot game plan a season around him because he never stays healthy. So in a way, even though he should make you better, he, he makes it impossible and he has this huge salary. Has the guy who's been in the conversation when he's healthy and still more or less in his age prime ever had negative trade value? I can't think of that in any sport.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

[Max Kellerman]

The closest thing I can think of at the end of Barry Bonds career, his per at bat ratios, his on basis slugging was still totally elite and he couldn't get a job. He was toxic at that point. To the point I once had Bill James on a radio show in New York City on ESPN radio, the Max Kellerman show back then going back 20 years or whatever it was. And I said and he tried to argue well no, I think teams don't think that he can help them. I was like at the time I was like Bill, there's not a team that ever existed that a guy with a near 500 on base and near 600 slugging wouldn't help. Like he laughed but like Bonds was toxic. They didn't want to touch him and bet he was also like 40 something years old. Embiid is not toxic and he's not ancient and he's still really good and you would have to include picks to get rid of him.

[Rich Paul]

Well, well I think you leave it one major component out. He's at the beginning of a three year extension. This next year will be the first year of a three year extension. This is all new money. So that is, that's, that's going to be very tough to move.

[Max Kellerman]

Very tough to move. Like you think you're a G. There must be. I'm trying to think is there any team out there that's maybe a small market that needs an attraction that's like we're not going anywhere anyway. Maybe if we catch lightning in a bottle and the guy could play 62 games and or 50 but he can be healthy in the playoffs it'll give our team. Is there any team a Sacramento, Is there any team like that in the NBA?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not sure because obviously I think there's a ton of teams that would want the talent but then you have to take the salary and that's where you run into a rock and a hard place. Now here's the other thing I would say the tough thing about it, man, you know when you are a high draft pick and you come into a situation that is, and this is why I don't like to do this, you come into a situation that says we're going to lose. Basically the process was we're going to lose for the next, I don't know, two, three years, right. What that does is going back to my point earlier when we started to show psychologically you start to do certain things as an organization and then the players come into a 82 game season. And when you have this understanding that we're going to lose anyway, so to speak, it's not like written on the whiteboard, but the undertone is. It's a process, meaning that we don't care if we win or lose. Right. And most likely we're probably going to lose. And you, and you have a couple of years of that. That could be very detrimental to someone's growth both mentally and I would just say not skill wise because his skills off the chain. But just, it's just not good for the basketball soul to plant a seed in that and you first start growing this, this tree. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

And so going back 10 years already.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, but, but I'm just saying it's a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just how you're saying you're, you're saying it was the, it was doomed because the way they went about it, the seed they planted was rotten in the first place.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. The fact that we're at the draft combine, this is, this is right on par for the course. If I'm a top player. Right. I do not want to go into a losing situation. Most top players want to go into a situation where they do what I'm play all the minutes, I'm going to shoot all the balls. But nine times out of 10 that's going to result in us losing. But because I'm shining, then we're fine with that. I rather go into a situation to where I'm plugged in. I can play a role, I can get better. I'm around a winning environment, winning culture. I'm building great habits. I'm learning from great vets. I'm sharpening my intelligence from a basketball perspective because we're not in a film room lackadaisical and laissez faire. We're not in shoot around lackadaisical and laissez faire. We're not coming out of timeouts and forgetting plays and it don't matter. We're not disregarding the fact that we're.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not in a losing. You're not in a losing organization. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You know, but all. But see, when you talk to these young kids, all these things matter, Max, when it comes to your basketball or football or whatever sport you play. Career development.

[Max Kellerman]

I get it.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And I get it. You want to make all the money. I get that. You want the popularity, I get that. But if you ask anybody that's been this league longer than a day and asked them if they could do it all over again and Knowing that they were going to still be where they at today. Which journey would they rather take? I would tell you it's the latter.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way. Let's. I want to get to the Wizards because they got the number one overall pick, but that leads really to the Pacers. The Pacers, you know, had a top four protected pick. Part of the Zubac deal, right? They tank the end of the season, and really, once they lose Halliburton, you get it. Maybe they can pull off a Spurs situation where, as I said, people forget how good the Pacers are when they're healthy. The Pacers, last year, this Thunder team, oh, my God, can anyone beat them? And they're the champions. This and that. This Thunder team, last year in Game 7, were tied at the half with the Pacers when Halliburton got hurt. It is unclear to me that the Thunder would have won that game. The Pacers had. Halliburton stayed healthy for another half. Maybe the defending champions right now. So they're that good. And then once they lose them, they're like, oh, look at this. We're going to rig the system. We're. We're already awesome, and we're going to go maybe get a top, top draft pick. And they. They were too clever by half. Right? Maybe it's like karmic justice that they, they. They tank the end of the season, especially the fans have to sit through that, and they don't even get the draft pick because. Because of the zoobox deal. How. What do you think of this?

[Rich Paul]

I liked it. Look, I think. I think when you have these type of opportunities, you got to take risk and you got to own it. And they. And the Pacers front office came out publicly and owned it. And they said, hey, make no mistake about it. Getting Zubak was big.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You have Tyrese Halliburton, right? You need a strong big. And he's. And he's. I don't know if they're around the same age, him and Halliburton, but he's extremely skilled. He's. He's big in the paint. He's, He's. He's. He's a force. So now I can get Zubak, and we might get one of these young guys at the top of the draft. If we just get our pick, if we just get our four, we don't even need one. If we just get four, but maybe we get one, two, or three. That's worth the swing.

[Max Kellerman]

How about a top six protected pick? Top five? They missed it by A slot I know that's missed it by one. It's a killer for Pacers fans.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's in negotiations. But on the flip side, I agree with you though.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Pacers fans, fans would sign up for it. Like, yeah, considering Halliburton got hurt, the season was going to be shot anyway. They would sign up for it.

[Rich Paul]

It's the right thing to do. And here's the other thing. On the, on the other hand, the Clippers, yeah, had some luck, fall their

[Max Kellerman]

way for the first time ever because

[Rich Paul]

they could have got nine, they could have got eight, they got five, they got the highest they could get.

[Max Kellerman]

Don't worry Lakers fans, they'll make, they'll make the wrong pick. Clippers will make the rules.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think so, huh?

[Rich Paul]

No, I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

So what do you think? Washington gets the number one pick, which is interesting considering what they have in Washington right now.

[Rich Paul]

Max, do you know when Anthony Davis left New Orleans, they got the number one pick in Zion.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

When he left Dallas, they got the number one pick in Cooper. Flag.

[Max Kellerman]

So you're saying trade Anthony Davis if you want the number one pick?

[Rich Paul]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying everything he's been involved in has led to the number one pick. I called him yesterday, I said, yo, man, what's going on here? He said, listen, if you want the number one pick, get Anthony Davis. That's just how it works. You got to be in bed in some capacity with Anthony Davis. I mean, that is crazy though, Max, seriously, just think about that for two seconds. Everything he's been involved in, every time the team has gotten the number one pick. That's kind of crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

JJ and Rick Ross have a song about this. Do they fuck with me? You know, I got it.

[Rich Paul]

That was really good, Max. That was really good.

[Max Kellerman]

The Bansa or Peterson? Rich?

[Rich Paul]

Neither one.

[Max Kellerman]

Who?

[Rich Paul]

I keep telling you, Caleb Wilson's the number one player in this draft. I don't know what, I don't know how many times I have to keep

[Max Kellerman]

screaming, who are they going? Who are they going to pick?

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I don't know. I don't have the pick. I'm not Will Dawkins or Michael Winger. I do not have the pick.

[Max Kellerman]

If you ran the Wizards and we're talking about non clutch clients.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not. No, that's because here's the thing, it's not about clutch or non clutch. It's about the best player. If I ran the Wizards probably Acuff, man, listen, I think you have a lot of optionality. I think that because you have drafted the way they drafted. The Wizards have a lot of young talent on that roster, from Saar to Carrington to George to Johnson. They bring on Trae Young, you get Anthony Davis, you know, you have Will Riley, who's a player.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me. Can I play it another way? Who. Best case scenario or most likely scenario, who's the comp for Demanza? What's the closest computer?

[Rich Paul]

I think on the low end, Siakam. On the high end, you would hope is. He's so. He's such. He's so much taller than like Jalen Brown.

[Max Kellerman]

He's like Paul George, six nine in his prime.

[Rich Paul]

Not as fluid as Paul George, but. Yeah, that's a good. That's a good. That's. But not as fluid, not as.

[Max Kellerman]

What about Peterson? What about Peterson? Comp.

[Rich Paul]

Very smooth. Very smooth. Peterson is Devin Booker smooth. He's. He's.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But bigger

[Rich Paul]

book. Six five.

[Max Kellerman]

Is he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Six five. That's right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. I think of a. I think of a full size two guard at six six.

[Rich Paul]

You know, I think when it's all said and done, I do think they go A.J. i think it'd be hard not to go A.J. i think they go A.J. and then it opens up from there for the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Sounds like you're saying Peterson has more upside.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, look, the way Peterson shoots the ball. That, that, that's. That that works tomorrow. That, that, that, that's not, you know, from, from an AJ Perspective, you know, you got to come in. Look, you're coming in probably playing the three when you're really probably a four.

[Max Kellerman]

See, what you're saying about the bancer, though, is the reason I don't take them number one overall. I know when you factor in health and this and that and athletic ability and length and everything, he's bigger. But I. Even Paul George in his prime, who's a fantastic player. Number one overall pick. I want more. Number one overall pick. I want a guy who I believe can be the best player on a championship team. Now, you can't wish him into existence. You can't wish him into existence if he doesn't exist in that draft. Take the best player. If you look at Peterson and Acuff and Wilson and whoever else, and you go, I don't believe any of those guys are the number one players on a championship team eventually. Because this guy's injury prone. Cause this guy's too small because of whatever, then take the Bance. But if you think that, yeah, the Bance has the highest floor, but the ceiling is this. But I think Peterson's ceiling is that. It's higher. I think, I think you got to

[Rich Paul]

take Peterson, but I think it's, I think it's three guys in this draft like that.

[Max Kellerman]

Those two at the top.

[Rich Paul]

At the top, at the top. Yes. I think it's those like that. So it can go either way. I think that the biggest thing with AJ is he has great size, he plays hard, he has, he has, he has a really good skill set. But it's, it's for all these young guys coming into the league, whether you starting or coming off the bench, it's going to be can I fit into a situation and, and, and identify a role until I can be, until I actually become, if I ever become that star player that my potential says I am, that's the biggest because you're bringing somebody that that's been used to. You know, he went to byu, he got the ball in his hand, he's taking as many shots as he want to take. But he also play in the system. You know, Kevin Young did a good job there. But, you know, so, so does, do you go that route and, or, but, and, or. See, here's the thing. You can also if, if that guy, if you don't believe that guy is a franchise changing player or generational talent and somebody else may believe that, if you don't believe in somebody else does. We're open for business. Give me an offer.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi, Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas. This episode is brought to you by Weathertech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and making a mess. You don't need Weathertech floor liners in the summer. Unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue. Ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those Weathertech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need Weathertech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today.

[Max Kellerman]

So, Rich, we have Time right now to do a Get Rich Very Quick. Or we could save Get Rich Quick for, for Wednesday or Friday and then hit quick hits. You want to do a Get Rich?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm gonna do my Get Rich Quick Very Quick on, on. You know, everyone's been, you know, you see Audemars, Piguet and Swatch did a collaboration.

[Max Kellerman]

I saw.

[Rich Paul]

I thought it was, yeah, I, I thought it was pretty cool. I thought it was a really cool way for Audemars to reach a younger audience in a mass way.

[Max Kellerman]

This is an extremely. So people who don't know because they don't have succession money. Not that rich inherited it, but it's, it's. You're talking about a watch that retails for, you know, six figures and now they're selling it.

[Rich Paul]

Not all.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, some. You know, but there's a very expensive watch brand, high end watch brand and you're talking about. And now they're releasing watches for a couple Hundred bucks. $300. 300.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But they've been trying to find a way to get younger. They did a, they did a collab with Travis Scott. They were doing some stuff with some DJs and so on, so forth. But what they came to realize, I imagine is like I talked about in our earlier show with, with the brand Jordan stuff, you have to have a consumer that has that excessive spending habit and able to, you know, have that, what's the word I'm looking for? They need the finances of it. Like how do I, what, what, what 20 year old, 25 year old or 15 year old is going to have $30,000 to spend on the watch? Right when it was sneakers at $100, okay, that's, that's, that's reachable. Even 150, 200, that's reachable. But a watch at 30,000 or 10,000, and you're right, some of them get up to 300,000, some of them get to get up to a million. But I've seen people complaining, saying, why would they do this? We buy them on retail, et cetera. You have to understand the business component of it. Now what's happening is one, I think it's super cool because you're going to create it to where now I'm a young kid, I'm a young kid and I have this watch. What is that doing? It's getting me the same thing it did for the shoe companies in aau. It's getting that kid more familiar with what the brand at a younger age. They're going to all strive to one day be able to get just the Audemars Piguet. That is not collab with Swatch. But for right now, this would do. It's going to be everywhere. It's going to be massive. Shador Sanders, if you're listening to me, this is the deal for you. Swatch an AP show it. This is a panic. But yeah, but an apartment, that's where you should be.

[Max Kellerman]

You can justify dropping a lot of money on a watch if it's the kind of watch that will retain its value.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Because then you're kind of parking your money somewhere and you get use out of it and all that stuff.

[Rich Paul]

This also pushes back, Max. On. This is why it's so genius.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

This also pushes back on the other market that's selling the fake Audemars.

[Max Kellerman]

Interesting. See this, you can get. At least you can get the genuine collab. Yes. For like the price of a pair of sneakers. More or less.

[Rich Paul]

Why buy the fake Audemars for 10,000 when you can buy an actual Audemars? Just Audemars SWAT 300.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I thought it was genius. So kudos.

[Max Kellerman]

And it's the same. That's the whole thing. It looks the same. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

That's my get rich very quick.

[Max Kellerman]

It is for ap.

[Rich Paul]

I thought it was a genius move.

[Max Kellerman]

And also you're shouting out Shador Sanders.

[Rich Paul]

I thought Shador. Good brand match. When I first thought about it, I immediately thought Shador. You know how many kids. If Shador had the browns, color, orange, AP Swatch and he scored a touchdown

[Max Kellerman]

and I'm not going to say I think I would buy one, I would buy one too.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying. This is what I'm saying, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

That's why I'm saying you're right. Listen. Yeah, listen. You have a head for this for sure. Quick hits. Lakers getting swept tonight, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Well, if they don't. If they don't figure out that AJ Mitchell is left handed. Yeah. I mean how many times you don't let. I mean he's left handed. That's number one. I think it's how you come in with the Midtown look. No one and I know the LeBron haters are going to try all the ones that said that they were going to get swept against the Rockets or there's going to be legitimate sweep against the Rockets and had egg on their face. They're now going to try to take that egg and make an omelette out of it at the end. Of the day. No one expected the Lakers to be in this series.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. The Laker. This Lakers season, especially considering Luca got hurt, is an unqualified success. They got to the second round of the playoffs without their best player.

[Rich Paul]

Very much so.

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron James has really helped his free agency if he intends to play next year. He's absolutely helped it because he's played out of his mind for his age. And even just if you put age to the side, he is still among. Maybe he's not in the upper most tier, three or four players obviously, but he's still a. He is playing at not just an all star level, but above an all star level when you need him most.

[Rich Paul]

He might make the NBA team.

[Max Kellerman]

He might. Austin Reaves is not helping his case right now. And I'm a big Austin Reaves fan. I want to make that clear. He's not helping his case right now.

[Rich Paul]

Well, listen, here's what I'll say. The Lakers have overachieved this year based upon, you know, how the year started, trade deadline, guys getting injured. Look, they got nothing to hang their head about. I think they, they found some things. It was good to see the young player, Theero, you know, I think something there with him and his development. JJ's done a hell of a job as a coach. You have to tip your hat there. Look, guys get injured at the wrong time and I know, you know, everyone is going to use this time to, to say, oh, it count towards a record, whatever, that, that stuff don't matter. I mean we, we, we, we're even. Here's another thing. I'll say, Max, this idea of, you know, the, the, the media using the same old tricks again. I saw some of the same old tricks being done with as it pertains to LeBron and oh, he's not this, he's not that. Today's listener. And these new platforms, they're not falling for the old tricks that worked in 2012 anymore. Everyone understands it. Everyone gonna have the argument who's the goat, who's not the goat? Fine, you can have, you can have fun with that. But the reality of it is the Lakers have overachieved. They really.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, for it's a. They're in the second round of the playoffs. They're also running into the defending champions who are better than they were last year and are playing as well.

[Rich Paul]

They, they younger, deeper, more shooting, more

[Max Kellerman]

cohesive, everything they, they wouldn't have a shot at.

[Rich Paul]

They ran into a buzz. No.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, buzz off for sure. Real quick. Steve Kerr Agreed to a two year extension with the Warriors. Two year extension. What does that tell you about the warriors future, Rich?

[Rich Paul]

Hopefully that says that they're going to, you know, really take a run at it for these next two years. It definitely tells me they're not going to want to be a lottery team or, or, or, or not win and

[Max Kellerman]

try and give Steph the best shot they can give him at winning another chip.

[Rich Paul]

And you know what? That's the ultimate respect they can give Steph and Draymond. That's the ultimate respect they can give them.

[Max Kellerman]

You ready to do some emails?

[Rich Paul]

Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Gentlemen. First thing, I love the podcast. I have one question for each of you. Max love boxing. I'd like to know what are the keys in calling a sport that moves so fast? It's interesting because you do have to like, there's timing and there's just bad luck sometimes when you're calling a fight in. Boxing actually happened to me last night where something really interesting was said in the corner and it like, I thought it was like a window into a pivotal moment of the fight. And as I'm trying to relay to people why, I think that Shane Mosley Jr. Son of the great champion Shane Mosley, Sugar Shane Mosley, all time great Shane Mosley Jr. Who's the underdog, lands the knockout shot on this guy Boachuk, who's like a rugged warrior type. And it was this big dramatic moment. But because I'm trying to like, explain what I thought was a pivotal thing in the corner, I had to, you know, like, I had to get right back in the ring. So when it moves fast, sometimes you're just asked out, you know, like you, you try your best to time. It doesn't always work that way. So, you know, I don't know what to tell you other than you try your best to stay with the action and tell a story at the same time. This one's for you, Rich. Part of the same guy is asking, does your agency actually recruit new clients or do they come to you?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, no, we recruit. Yeah, we recruit a lot. I mean, sometimes you get incoming calls, but we recruit a lot. Yeah. And earlier. Now more than ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Thank you for taking my email. Michael from Lorton, Virginia. I thought that was a good one, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's good. That was good.

[Max Kellerman]

That was good, Max. Rich, big fan of the show. You talk about events access on the show all the time. What's your most underrated sports event to attend that the average listener would not expect based on all your Travels. Everyone says, what's the most underrated sports event to attend that the average listener would not expect based on all your travels. Everyone says hockey. Hockey is better in person than on tv. But I don't think you can call it underrated if everyone's saying it, you know?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I would say. I normally would say hockey for sure. But you just made a good point. Hockey's great.

[Max Kellerman]

To attend. I got an answer for it. I got an answer. No, I would say your kids like junior high school basketball game. You know, like, people complain about that stuff. No, actually, you're super emotionally invested. As long as there's not jerk parents, which I have not really encountered, you're super emotionally invested. You get to see your kid learning stuff and figuring stuff out and learning to deal. Like, you know the value of playing in a team sport. I think your kids like junior varsity basketball game is.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Here's what I'll say about kids sports, youth sports, team sports. I think there's too much emphasis on who's winning the game and not enough emphasis on allowing every kid, number one to participate and developing that kid. My son was a part of a team. I got so mad, I'm like, the team isn't good. Okay. You're sitting here trying to. To make sure you win a game. We're down six to nothing. The team isn't good. Getting still. You have kids over there that are playing spot minutes. Just let all the kids play the right way and develop them over time. Let them enjoy coming to play. And we might not be good this year, but next year we'll be even better. And then the year after that, we'll be even better. But that's how you build a team.

[Max Kellerman]

But I want to get to. I want to get to the end of this email because also, Rich open invite to get you out to my course, Silverleaf in Scottsdale anytime. LeBron just played it in February before playing the Suns. Let's get you out there. Next, Harrison Abramowicz.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, is that the one he played with John Rahm? I think so.

[Max Kellerman]

That's Harrison Abramowicz. Do I look like Harrison Abramowicz, too? Maybe I do. I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. But, hey, invite. I'm there. Silverleaf. I'll be there.

[Max Kellerman]

Boy, it's not hard to get. You have a golf course.

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to play golf in Chicago. Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, Right.

[Rich Paul]

I just got to figure out when.

[Max Kellerman]

Probably Max. Yeah, good.

[Rich Paul]

No, if you're listening out there and you want to invite Me to what's the best country club in Chicago? Yeah. And is there a New Balance store here? I can get some golf gear. Yeah. Invite me. I'll come play Wednesday morning early.

[Max Kellerman]

Hello, Max and Rich. Alec from Los Angeles here again. Wanted to hear your Mount Rushmore of NBA players who never got a ring.

[Rich Paul]

My. Oh, oh, that's. That's kind of easy.

[Max Kellerman]

Barkley.

[Rich Paul]

Barkley for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. See. See, the question is, are we talking about great careers or are we talking about Peaks? Great careers. You think about Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Patrick.

[Rich Paul]

Difficult. Just answer the man's question.

[Max Kellerman]

Because there are guys who hit extreme peaks, who never made. Who never won a championship. Because I mentioned Embiid earlier because of injury, because of whatever else, but he didn't. But didn't have the career of some of those guys. Barkley, ewing, Stockton, Malone, AI.

[Rich Paul]

AI would be on my list.

[Max Kellerman]

CP3, Carmelo Harden.

[Rich Paul]

AI would be. No, you can't say Harden because he's still playing. That's disrespectful. I would say. I would say for my list, it would be. The fourth person would be between. Who did I say? I said Barkley.

[Max Kellerman]

Barkley, Pat.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm taking Pat out of my list. I'm taking Barkley.

[Max Kellerman]

I try to sneak Patrick Ewing in there.

[Rich Paul]

No, Barkley. Mello. AI. And I'm going with my guy, Grant Hill.

[Max Kellerman]

Huh? All right. There you go. That's Rich's list.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Ready to do a voicemail? Sure, if you want to leave a voicemail. Quick question. If you want to leave the voicemail, don't any too long. This one's a little long. 424-240-8341. Let's your voicemail.

[Listener Caller]

Hey guys, this is Brian from Phoenix, Arizona. Love the show. I have a baseball question for you regarding Shohei Ohtani. I saw that Sports Illustrated put out their list of the top 50 or 100 players of all time. They had Babe Ruth at number one and Shohei at number eight. I don't understand why people do not realize that Shohei is the best player to ever play the game. He's one of the best pitchers in the game right now. And hitters, we've never seen anything like it. I don't know how this guy isn't regardless, the best player of all time. That's all I have. Thank you guys. Keep up the good work.

[Max Kellerman]

Shohei is not a top 10 player of all time. Eight is way too high for him. And let me tell you the problem that, that. That Brian's making the conflation A lot of people do this. What Shohei is doing is harder to do than anyone has ever done. It's the hardest. No one's ever done a thing as hard, hard as what Shohei is doing to be like Babe Ruth was actually a. Was the greatest clutch pitcher of his era. He was not only the best left hander in the American League, but he was. He also had a scoreless, consecutive scoreless inning streak in the World Series. So he elevated in the. That stood for longer than his home run record did. So he, he was. He accomplished more as a pitcher than Shohei has so far in that sense. And he was a better hitter than Shohei easily. Like compared to his league, he was way farther ahead of his league. Shohei's not even the best hitter in the league or in the majors. Aaron Judge is a way better hitter than Shohei. The numbers demonstrate this. But when Babe Ruth did it, there were many, many, many fewer players playing baseball. So it's easier to be an extreme outlier. Shohei is doing this in a homogenized world where everyone play. You know, who's in the sport has been playing organized baseball since they're in the womb, basically. And so many more players are playing it all over the world that to get a guy who can pitch and hit like what Shohei as Shohei can is next to impossible. It's miraculous but rich. It's a little bit like saying, like hitting for the cycle is much rarer than let's say, hitting three home runs in a game. The cycle's a home run, a triple, a double, a single. But it's not as good as hitting three home runs in a game. The three home runs are more valuable. So what Shohei is doing is harder to do than what anyone has ever done. But that does not make him the best baseball player or even yet a top 10 player of all time.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'll say. Yep, I never seen Babe Ruth play. I have seen Shohei play. I would agree with you. I don't know if you could put him in the top 10 just yet,

[Max Kellerman]

but he will be when he's done.

[Rich Paul]

Max, he is a hell of a baseball player. I've never seen nothing like this in my life.

[Max Kellerman]

No, me again.

[Rich Paul]

I was there. Obviously I go to Dodger games. It's incredible, man. That's all I can say. I mean, listen, whether he's in the top 10 now or later, he'll be there. He'll probably be. If he keeps this up, he'll be in the Top three.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Top three or five. I mean, if he can stay healthy on both sides of the ball, it's going to be tough to argue. As I said, like an inc. The most incredible thing. But, like, his. You know, people are very advanced. Analytics is good at kind of valuing people's contributions to wins. And so far, when Judge is healthy and Shohei's healthy, even adding up all of Shohei's pitching and hitting value, Judge is worth more wins to your team than Shohei and their contemporaries. So. But I get it, because what Shohei is doing is just, like, more impossible to do. So I understand why people think he's the best ever, because who could do this? Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's incredible.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, it was fun. I will see you. I'll see you. At least. I'll see you after tomorrow.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I'll see you on Wednesday. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail]. max, we gotta do a live show, man. I'm just telling. We gotta figure this out.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm ready to go.

[Rich Paul]

I'm in the airport. People's asking me. I'm. I'm at the game.

[Max Kellerman]

People's like, should we do it in front of an audience?

[Rich Paul]

We like to show. You don't have to be a big audience. I just think it'll be. I don't care if it's 50 people.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? Right. All right, I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're ready.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Yeah, let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Good luck combine. I'll see you on the.

[Rich Paul]

It's a lot of work, man. I don't know about good luck. It's a lot of work. A lot of work. A lot of long, long days.

[Max Kellerman]

Don't turn down good luck. I mean, of course it's work. I'm not saying it's not work, but you're gonna turn down.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not turning down good luck. I just think, you know. Yeah, it's a lot of work. I don't know. You know, you can say good luck on the golf course. Say that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. No one feels sorry for you. You're going to be getting invites to golf.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not looking for sympathy. No.

[Max Kellerman]

Best friends with LeBron James and everything. No one's feeling sorry.

[Rich Paul]

No one. I'm not looking for sympathy at all.

[Max Kellerman]

Good. Because you're not getting any.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, 21 and over in select states for Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchattinconenetic or visit MBA dgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-7-8, HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.