Knicks Take the NBA Cup, Details on CP3’s Exit, and Crawford Retires

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Knicks Take the NBA Cup, Details on CP3’s Exit, and Crawford Retires
Date: December 17, 2025
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive into three major topics shaking up the sports world: the Knicks’ triumph in the NBA Cup, the inside story behind Chris Paul’s departure from the Clippers, and the legacy of boxing great Terence “Bud” Crawford after his retirement. The episode is packed with in-the-moment analysis, insider stories, plenty of banter, and sharp cultural references.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Knicks Win the NBA Cup

[04:22–24:49]

• Chris Broussard’s Mea Culpa on the NBA Cup:
  Chris openly admits he underestimated the NBA Cup’s potential:

  “The distance between my perception of how good it is and how good it actually is was pretty wide.” (05:09)

• Rich Paul on the Cup’s Impact:

  “It’s great for the league… You’re excited to watch whoever’s there, which is always a good thing.” (05:20)

• Finals-Preview Vibes:
  The hosts debate whether the Knicks-Spurs final could be a real preview of this year’s Finals, with shoutouts to the Thunder and Houston as other contenders.

• Format Improvements & Adam Silver’s Credit:
  After past criticism, Chris concedes that Adam Silver’s structure works. The incentive for players is highlighted:

  “If they play the All-Star game like they played the NBA Cup, we’ll really be smoking. Then we’ll be cooking strong.” (08:09)

• Player Motivation:
  Rich notes the importance of the financial reward, especially for bench players:

  “It’s not only about the money for the starters... for the end of the bench, it’s definitely only about the money.” (08:46)

• Mitch Robinson’s Clutch Play:
  Chris lauds Robinson:

  “Mitch Robinson is one of those dudes… he is a clutch defensive player.” (09:34)

• Coach Mike Brown’s Game-Changing Decisions:
  Broussard singles out Brown’s late-game lineup—especially bringing in Kolik for ball handling—as the true difference maker.

  “To me, that’s what iced that game to the Knicks.” (10:33)
  Rich agrees:
  “Really good coaches could not be afraid to throw a guy… Kolik has showed he’s an NBA player capable of playing in those minutes.” (10:35)

• Wemby’s Limited Impact:
  Both hosts observe that Victor Wembanyama’s minutes restriction changed the game’s flow and San Antonio’s rhythm. Rich breaks down the tactical implications of “posting Wemby at the nail.”

• Spurs’ Future Potential:
  Chris sees massive upside if young wings like Castle and Harper can reliably shoot.

• Knicks’ Evolution under Mike Brown:

  • Rich and Chris discuss Brown’s influence versus Tom Thibodeau's, emphasizing improved pace, bench usage, and playoff readiness:

    “What I saw yesterday, different than what I saw before... was he was able to get Brunson off the ball… The ball is moving a lot more than it did in the Tibbs offense.” (20:04)

• Knicks’ Remaining Needs & Trade Deadline Speculation:
  Rich calls the Knicks “surface-level trade away from really being able to cement themselves.” (15:24)
  The importance of Josh Hart improving his shooting and potential bench tweaks are dissected:

  “Josh Hart needs to shoot it better from long range… Otherwise, the starting five isn’t exactly what you want.” (23:06)

Key Quotes:

• “It was great basketball. Great basketball.” – Rich Paul (05:26)
• “If we had more people with that mentality to be able to say, you know what, I was hating a little bit, but I was wrong, the world would be a better place.” – Rich Paul (04:48)

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2. Chris Paul’s Clippers Exit (Ramona Shelburne Reporting)

[26:12–40:48]

• Setup:
  Chris summarizes Shelburne's reporting: CP3 was brought to the Clippers as a low-maintenance veteran, expected to provide leadership more than minutes. However, his competitive fire, strong influence in practices, and vocal presence created friction.

• Accountability & Culture Clashes:
  Rich points out that “all ideas are good until they're bad,” and CP3 couldn’t simply turn off his drive, regardless of organizational expectations:

  “The fact of the matter is, we’ve known who Chris Paul has been his entire career, and you can’t change a tiger’s stripes.” (28:19)

• Coaches, Players, and Communication:
  Chris wonders if CP3’s assertiveness was necessary on an underachieving team, or if it was disruptive. Rich stresses shared accountability—front office, coaching, and the player must all be clear on the role:

  “If they say to you, ‘Chris, we want you to be the sixth coach,’ and you agree to that, then that’s the deal.” (30:01)

• Locker Room Dynamics:
  They discuss how NBA players don’t like confrontation and how Chris Paul’s take-charge style can bump heads with both players and coaches, especially if he's not “the guy” anymore.

• Beware of Undermining the Staff:
  Chris brings up reports that CP3 changed coverages; Rich argues that such leadership can be a double-edged sword if it conflicts with coaching authority.

• CP3’s Basketball IQ:
  Chris: “Chris Paul is like the platonic ideal of a Larry Brown point guard.” (36:28)
  Rich: “It’d be hard to say that he’s not right about basketball things… but it could have been the wrong time for him to say who he felt was right.” (36:11)

• Agents’ Role:
  Rich (as a super-agent) details how clear communication about expectations is crucial:

  “If I represented Chris, and I was talking to the Clippers about him joining the team, the first thing that you’re asking is: what type of role is this?” (38:43)

Memorable Exchange:

• Chris: “So you’re saying it’s Chris Paul’s fault? That’s how I hear what you said.” (38:07)
• Rich: “No, I’m not saying Chris Paul… I’m saying there’s shared accountability in all of it and…there’s no winner.” (40:48)

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3. Terence “Bud” Crawford Retires

[41:49–59:43]

• Bud’s Legacy:
  Chris argues Crawford was probably the best pound-for-pound fighter of the last decade but lacked mainstream opportunity because he was “so dangerous, other stars didn’t want to fight him.” He lauds Bud’s undefeated record and dominance.

• Contextualizing Greatness:

  “There are some athletes that come along in different sports where the people who watched them through that era... you will never be able to tell them anything about that player.” (50:24)
  Bud is one of those rare talents, alongside LeBron, Kobe, Floyd Mayweather, and Sugar Ray Robinson.

• Industry Challenges for Black Fighters:
  Chris describes how Bud’s principled, humble style made it hard for him to break through:

  “If you were a black fighter and you didn’t have an over-the-top personality, and you weren’t a heavyweight, and you were as good as Crawford… how are you going to get them in the ring with you?” (56:01)

• Bud’s Approach:
  “I’m just gonna be me, and I’m just gonna keep beating everyone they put in front of me.” (56:03, quoting Bud)

• Rich’s Assessment:
  Rich laments that Bud was “a little cheated in his career” because most eyeballs have left boxing for other sports, noting his career would have been bigger in a different era.

  “Everything about Bud… I think Bud was a little cheated in his career.” (51:39)

• Personal Stories & Role Models:
  They share sparring stories, with Chris relaying Tim Bradley’s awe for Bud’s boxing IQ and adaptability (54:35). They compare Bud’s steely authenticity to Wu-Tang Clan’s uncompromising path from underground to legendary status (57:36).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You have to be enamored by everything [Crawford] brings to the sport of boxing and how he went out.” – Rich (58:09)
• “Cheers to Bud. For sure.” – Chris (58:28)
• Chris: “He’s one of those dudes, and they’re not that common.” (51:33)
• Rich: “The thing about Bud: there’s no fear.” (52:54)

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4. Quick Hitters & Cultural Banter

• Olympics Teaser:
  The hosts set up a future debate: Team USA vs. Team France and Victor Wembanyama at the 2028 LA Olympics (58:30–59:43).

• NY Style – Timbs & Uptowns:
  A fun closing debate over sneaker culture—what it means to have “halfway new Timbs” and flexes back in the day (60:00–62:08).

• Rich’s Obama Dinner Story:
  Rich humorously narrates the social challenge of sneaking out of an intimate dinner with Barack Obama (46:04–47:28).

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Important Segment Timestamps

• NBA Cup deep dive & Knicks analysis:
  04:22–24:49

• CP3 Clippers story, player/coach dynamics:
  26:12–40:48

• Crawford retires, boxing culture, athlete greatness:
  41:49–59:43

• Olympics preview, sneaker and NYC culture sidebar:
  58:30–62:08

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Overall Tone & Language

Rich and Max (Chris) keep things authentic, knowledgeable, and conversational, blending inside stories, social context, sharp basketball analysis, and humor. There’s playfulness and plenty of cultural flavor, especially in their sneaker talk and back-and-forth on who gets the credit for on-court success.

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Summary Takeaways

• The NBA Cup has enriched the season’s drama and shown the Knicks’ growth, particularly thanks to coach Mike Brown’s adaptability and the bench’s depth.
• Chris Paul’s release from the Clippers reveals the perennial challenges of integrating aging superstars into shifting team hierarchies and the necessity for clear communication.
• Terence Crawford’s retirement cements his place as one of boxing’s elite, despite systemic obstacles and limited mainstream exposure. His career stands as a model of authenticity and excellence.
• 2028 Olympics looming: USA faces a new status as underdog, with the rise of Wemby and France—a subject the hosts will revisit.

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This episode is essential listening for basketball and boxing fans alike, offering fresh perspective, candid analysis, and the inside stories only these two voices can provide.

Transcript

[Rich Eisen]

Oh, what fun.

[Chris Broussard]

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[Rich Eisen]

I told you. You told me I spent my birthday at the NBA Cup. You did.

[Chris Broussard]

Although you had your birthday party the night before. I was there. I mean, I know it was supposed to be a launch party for the show, but.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, but it was great. It was a hybrid. All good.

[Chris Broussard]

If you have a birthday cake and they sing Happy Birthday, that's a birthday party.

[Rich Eisen]

Fair point.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

I take that.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, it was great.

[Chris Broussard]

My daughter was excited about it. My. My youngest daughter, because she saw.

[Rich Eisen]

Why'd you bring her?

[Chris Broussard]

I didn't know. Well, she's in New York, but. But she was excited about it because she saw someone from, I think, Love island there.

[Rich Eisen]

Oh, yes.

[Chris Broussard]

Oh, she was very excited about that TikTok or whatever it was.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, she was great, too.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah. So. All right, so I'm gonna do a mea culpa on the NBA Cup. That's. That's coming up.

[Rich Eisen]

That's all I was saying.

[Chris Broussard]

That was excellent. And did you see the Ramona Shelburne. That's my homegirl, Ramona Shelburne on the Clippers, This Chris Paul story.

[Rich Eisen]

I saw clips of it, but, I mean, I'm well oiled in that space, so that is so what I would say.

[Chris Broussard]

I want to pick your brain about what you're gonna say about this, because I wanna know.

[Rich Eisen]

I can definitely. Yeah, we could talk about that.

[Chris Broussard]

Ramona Shelburne's story. She did a great job, as always. But it is for basketball fans, and I'm a basketball fan. Sitting back and looking at the NBA, it raises questions that I need answered.

[Rich Eisen]

But that was a pause. I'm very tenured in understanding what happens throughout the league. Let me correct that.

[Chris Broussard]

That's why you're the guy. I was like, I couldn't wait for this morning. I'm like, I can't wait to hear what Rich has to say about this.

[Rich Eisen]

Just in case Cam and Mace is watching.

[Chris Broussard]

Listen. Oh, yeah, Cam was there.

[Rich Eisen]

Joe and Jada, because, you know, we got it. Because, see, here's the thing.

[Chris Broussard]

Cam was. I was very excited about that thing, though.

[Rich Eisen]

Max. Yeah. We are a different pot.

[Chris Broussard]

Right.

[Rich Eisen]

But we have to make sure that we're, you know, because I. These guys, they will. They will really have something to say to me about certain things. So we got to be careful.

[Chris Broussard]

Okay.

[Rich Eisen]

How we would normally say things. We got to just.

[Chris Broussard]

You mean about the party?

[Rich Eisen]

No, just about, like, certain comments. Like, I. I just said something that I caught. You may not have caught it because you're not even thinking about it.

[Chris Broussard]

Right.

[Rich Eisen]

But I got to deal with people.

[Chris Broussard]

Like, oh, I think I got to.

[Rich Eisen]

Deal with group chats and people like, I got you, Joe and Jaden, Cam and Mace, and. And they, you know, it's different.

[Chris Broussard]

Who knew that all my favorite rappers would have pods one day?

[Rich Eisen]

It's actually pretty dope.

[Chris Broussard]

I've done Oregon, you know, like, Nor.

[Rich Eisen]

I said I had to do Nori, but.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Chris Broussard]

All right, listen. You saw Bud Crawford retired yesterday. Yeah, I'm going to. I have some stuff to say about that. And then maybe we could do some NBA trades, you know, like, the season is upon us where people really want to hear about that. I think we can. And I think that's the show today. Sound good?

[Rich Eisen]

Sounds great. Yeah. Let's go.

[Chris Broussard]

All right. Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com/gameover to get started 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut.

[Rich Eisen]

Rich.

[Chris Broussard]

We came out on. On this show, our first podcast last Monday and I said, I like the NBA Cup. I don't want to get it twisted now. It's like no revisionist history. I didn't let. I said, it's just, eh. Like we could do better.

[Rich Eisen]

I felt like you was hating a little bit.

[Chris Broussard]

I know, I know. There was like, if you had to say the positive or not just a little bit.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Broussard]

Like I was. I really. Maybe I was. I didn't feel like I was, but in retrospect, maybe.

[Rich Eisen]

But here's the thing. It's okay to say, yeah, I was kind of hating and I was wrong. If we had more people with that mentality to be able to say, you know what, I was hating a little bit, but I was wrong. The world would be a better place.

[Chris Broussard]

If someone thinks they're never wrong.

[Rich Eisen]

No, it's not even that. It's just acknowledging that you were hating a little bit.

[Chris Broussard]

I think. I guess in retrospect. Well, let's put it this way. The distance between my perception of how good it is and how good it actually is was pretty wide.

[Rich Eisen]

It's great for the league. It's great for the league. That was great. And those teams.

[Chris Broussard]

That was great.

[Rich Eisen]

Was great. I thought I was there last night. Just great basketball. Great basketball.

[Chris Broussard]

It really was. And the fact that it is potentially a preview of the finals. I mean, is it more likely that the Thunder get there? Sure. But I would say I like the Knicks at least as much as anyone out of the east, maybe more. And I think the spurs are one of the top four teams in the West.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, I think what was encouraging about it was. And I think this is what you're trying to say. Yes, it could be a preview of the finals, but the fact that we have optionality in the preview of finals situations, if it's the Knicks and Spurs, if it's the Knicks and Thunder, if it's the. Whoever it may be, Houston and someone else, it's just. You're excited to watch who's ever there, which is always a good thing for the league.

[Chris Broussard]

No doubt about it. That was like. That was a. It had not exactly a post season feel, but like I remember you saying, hey, would it be better if it was like the college tournament? I don't know. I was thinking more about that. I don't know how you do that. Because the way they do it now, it's only the championship is not a regular season game. Right. Like everything else doesn't.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah. The championship is actually, if you win the championship. It's crazy. I said this to. I was telling LeBron this. I'm like, the only thing you haven't done is play like a 83 game season. But actually he did. He won the NBA game.

[Chris Broussard]

That's true.

[Rich Eisen]

So that's the 83rd game.

[Chris Broussard]

But it doesn't count in your regular season.

[Rich Eisen]

It doesn't count in your regular season.

[Chris Broussard]

But everything else does. So I don't know how they would do an in season tournament like I think they like. So. Adam Silver, Commissioner, I think my criticism was incorrect. I think this was the right way to do it.

[Rich Eisen]

I feel like Tom Hagen now.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

Adam Silver, Senator, you owe my client an Apology. Apology.

[Chris Broussard]

This is the Kefauver commitment.

[Rich Eisen]

Yes. You have to.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Because.

[Rich Eisen]

Because here's the thing.

[Chris Broussard]

We're in the house on American activities. Commitment.

[Rich Eisen]

When you have a brand as strong and relevant as the NBA, the fact that Adam didn't sit on it and wanted to even try to make it better, that's an admirable thing.

[Chris Broussard]

I agree.

[Rich Eisen]

And I do think that they're not.

[Chris Broussard]

I gave him credit for that last week.

[Rich Eisen]

I gave him the credit now because.

[Chris Broussard]

I'm saying I thought the mea culpo for me is. I'm like, good idea. Good step in the right direction. Now you can make it better. I don't know how they would do that at this moment.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, here's the thing.

[Chris Broussard]

I think that was really, really good.

[Rich Eisen]

But it's two parts. The good came from the players actually playing hard and embracing it.

[Chris Broussard]

Half a million to win. And they will.

[Rich Eisen]

If they play the All Star game like they played the NBA cup, we'll really be smoking. Then we'll be cooking strong. But there is some things. Like I imagine the semifinal game being in Vegas. Maybe they make that in market instead. Maybe. And just do the championship game in Vegas. There is a world where you can move the championship game around to different sites, if you wanted to do that, so on and so forth, so you can play it in, you know, cooler venues. If you build it out, there's.

[Chris Broussard]

I'm sure he'll tweak it as time goes on.

[Rich Eisen]

There's some things to do, but the.

[Chris Broussard]

Fact of the matter is it doesn't need any overhaul.

[Rich Eisen]

The most important part about the NBA cup that I take away from last night was that it's not only about the money for the starters, the guys on the end of the bench. It's definitely only about the money for them.

[Chris Broussard]

Half a million dollars.

[Rich Eisen]

It's such a change for their season. Right. And everything in between. You saw coaches. Mitch Johnson got a technical foul last night. If you know Mitch, he's not really doing that, but he was so passionate. They wanted to win. And I just felt like San Antonio, actually, they were tired. I think towards the end of the game, they wore down a little bit. Shots started to get shot.

[Chris Broussard]

Let's talk about the actual game, because every. Like, there'd be a lot of focus on Mitch Robinson grabbing all the offensive.

[Rich Eisen]

Boards and killing the boards.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, listen, Mitch Robinson is one of those dudes who you see and you go, that's a championship player. And people don't see guys who are known for their defense as clutch A lot of the time he is a clutch defensive player. Like he is a not your brand. I mean, you know, like.

[Rich Eisen]

No, I know what you're saying.

[Chris Broussard]

With a C, he is.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, you only got clutch one way.

[Chris Broussard]

Now it's with a K. It's with a K, it's being changed. He's a guy who, when you need him the most, plays his best. And that was apparent through the playoffs last year, and it was apparent last night. But I gotta tell you, I think the key to that game, and I want to say it was Stan Van Gundy who brought it up on the broadcast, was Mike Brown's. Mike Brown's handling of the game late, when he brought Kolik in at the end of that game to have another ball handler, decision maker on the floor, to me, that's what iced that game to the Knicks.

[Rich Eisen]

I think Mike Brown has saw enough basketball for sure. I think really good coaches could not be afraid to throw a guy. I mean, but Kolik has showed he's an NBA player capable of playing in those minutes.

[Chris Broussard]

But he's not one of your five best players. A lot of coaches want their five minutes.

[Rich Eisen]

If you watch him play in college, first of all, he's a competitor. He's going to make winning plays. He shoots it well, right? And he's just steady. And sometimes you need those steady guys, especially in those moments. And a coach like Mike Brown, he's going to trust a steady guy over anything. Because he hates turn, I'mma tell you right now, he hates turning the ball over. And he wants to make sure you're going to compete two things with Mike Brown, because he's old school, right? When I first met Mike Brown, I never forget he got the job in Cleveland and we went out to dinner. And back then, coaches used to have to dress, wear their suits. And Mike Brown, I used to get on him all the time because I said, mike, you gonna fracture your big toe Cause you stumping them. Stacey Adams. You know, back then the coaches used to go, it was a store in. It was a store in Atlanta that all the. When they go to Atlanta, I'm telling you, they used to buy so many of these dress shoes they used to buy. And I was making this joke about Mike Brown. Now he put the Chucks on, now they saved the. Or he wears vans or whatever shoe that he wears. But I know Mike Brown and I know the type of basketball he wants to play. So I'm not necessarily surprised by that. I also think yesterday, the minute restriction on Wemby man like that's just a game changer. Because if Wemby can play 32 minutes a game, his normal minutes, it's only the second game back after being out for so long.

[Chris Broussard]

Lot of the, of the first half and the second quarter, he's just not on the floor.

[Rich Eisen]

Changes the game, but also the rhythm and the continuity. Because now I think Wemby's sweet spot on the floor is the nail.

[Chris Broussard]

Right?

[Rich Eisen]

Right. So if you post him at the nail, for all you guys out there, the nail is two corners of the foul line. If you post him there now, he shoots the ball well enough to make that little 15 footer. Now if you bring the late double, depending on who you have in the short corner, if that guy is Vassell or Champagne or even when guys like Castle gets his. Castle in the big three last night, even when a guy like Cassidy Harper gets those jumpers consistently. Yeah, that's going to. When you're going to see San Antonio get really, really good.

[Chris Broussard]

If you have a guy like Pal Gasol in the old days in the pinch post and he's making decisions, he's like not exactly, not a stretch four, but a four who can shoot a jump shot and make decisions with the ball, like a second point guard, even if he's not handling like that, that's a game changer. But. And what you just said about Castle, I totally. When if you look at Castle and Harper, those guys, the question's going to be if those guys develop a three to the point where they don't have to be hitting 38%, but even 33 to 35% from 3, like just respectable enough. And that's really going to allow Wemby to be that kind of, you know, in the old days they might call it a point center or something like that is that's going to be impossible. That's going to be impossible.

[Rich Eisen]

The spurs found new oil with those two young guys. And obviously, you know, Fox is Fox and Wemby's going to be Wemby. But take nothing away from your New York Knicks because I'll tell you, they played the better game last night. And you know what? Bronson is going to give you OG actually shot the ball. He had five threes last night, which, you know, he's capable of making threes.

[Chris Broussard]

OG shooting the ball very well this whole year.

[Rich Eisen]

But the play of Jordan Clarkson, Mitchell.

[Chris Broussard]

Robinson off the bench and Tyler Kolk.

[Rich Eisen]

Tyler Kohlik, and it was one more. But they also was missing McBride, Landry Shamet wasn't dressed so they was missing a lot of this shooting and they still won the game. So the Knicks look. Like I said, I think the Knicks are. And we could talk about this later but I do think the Knicks just watching them, they're surface level trade away from really being able to cement themselves. I wouldn't get. I text Timothy Chalamet this morning. I said are you really celebrating the in season championship? You should. But I'm just asking because I wanted to know. Um, but I think.

[Chris Broussard]

What'd he say?

[Rich Eisen]

I don't know because we started shooting the show.

[Chris Broussard]

Gotcha, gotcha.

[Rich Eisen]

But I'll see it later. But I do think that they are surface level trade away from really positioning themselves. But in things like this, this shouldn't be a time where you sit back and be complacent. You should actually be.

[Chris Broussard]

Can I say something? Let me. Here's the thing that I think has changed with the Knicks because you know, two years ago they're in the playoffs against the Pacers and the Knicks were clearly better than the Pacers and only lost that series because they were hurt. They had guys who couldn't play. The following year though, the Pacers were clearly better than last year. The Pacers were clearly better than the Knicks. They're just better because the Pacers had evolved and gotten better as a group. It was clicking, right? And the Knicks hadn't quite taken that step. You know what's changed to me about the Knicks over the last couple weeks? When you think about Carl Anthony Towns coming out of college, he's the number one overall pick. Not just because, oh my God, he can shoot it, he can actually play 7ft tall, 7ft tall, do all that, but because in the modern NBA you're big. It needs to be able to defend out in space. And he's built like and has the ability to be that guy. So part of it with him was the projection of the kind of player he could be in the NBA. And what it turned out to be with Karl Anthony Towns for a lot of his career is the offense is what we thought it would be. The defense, the defense didn't follow. That's the difference between him and an MVP caliber player. What I've seen from Karl Anthony Towns in the last, let's say month is strides in that area. And I think that changes the entire Knicks game.

[Rich Eisen]

That's the Mike Brown effect, I think.

[Chris Broussard]

And I think Mike Brown was when Jalen Brunson got the MVP last night. But the MVP to me was the coach. The MVP to me was Mike Brown. Last night.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, two things Mike Brown, I believe, added to the Knicks and one, Thibodeau always had two. The difference is, and I think Mike actually got this from his time with the warriors is he's added both him and Tibbs. You got to. You have to give a value and effort.

[Chris Broussard]

Right.

[Rich Eisen]

They are effort guys. No question about it. But I think where Mike Brown makes a difference is now pace. And when you talk about the Pacers beating the Knicks. The Pacers beat the Knicks because of.

[Chris Broussard]

Their pace and depth.

[Rich Eisen]

Pace of play. Yeah, but really pace of. And they had guys that really.

[Chris Broussard]

But wait, let's stop right there. The difference between Mike Brown and Thibodeau, to me, is Mike Brown's more sophisticated. Mike Brown understands that, yes, we'd like to win today, but the way we're going to win is important because as you said, a lot of the NBA regular season is getting ready for the playoffs if you're a good team. And Mike Brown understands we can't have five guys getting all the minutes and then have no bench to have McBride that we. And maybe Mitch that we can rely on.

[Rich Eisen]

But I can't say. I'll say Mike Brown, again, taking it away from tips, is just as sophisticated. You know why? Because he learned. Because we don't know if what Mike Brown would have done prior to. But knowing, like, if you're coming, if you're coaching after someone else is just there, and it's up to you to recognize what they were doing, then you.

[Chris Broussard]

Start at a certain.

[Rich Eisen]

So, right. You start at a certain.

[Chris Broussard]

Like Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown with the Pistons back in the same field. Rick Carlisle gets you all the way there and then puts you over the top.

[Rich Eisen]

I don't know if that's sophistication, but it's definitely an astute thing.

[Chris Broussard]

I think Mike Brown. I hear you. What you're. I think Mike Brown. I think this hits you. I think it hits Mike Brown. I think it hits a lot of people in LeBron James orbit throughout his career where they don't get enough credit for what they've done because the snap judgment. It's not that people are being lazy. It's that people are living their lives and they got to have a lot of information to take in and come to these kind of quick conclusions is, well, he's there because of LeBron James. Well, he got an. You know, people think of him this way because of LeBron James. I think Mike Brown suffers from that, when, in fact, it's. What's not recognized is the kind of coach. He is what he just like as a Knicks, as a. As a little kid who used to be a big Knicks fan, in me watching that, it's like when you watch the Tibbs team, you knew that they're not going to win a championship, they're going to burn out. They don't have a bench. He doesn't trust the bench. They're not gonna be ready when they're called upon. And this team, completely different. Completely different. You brought up Clarkson, Mitch Kolik and Kolek. Yeah, that's Mike Brown. That's using what you got and, you know, not overworking your guys. And I think Knicks fans should be feeling good about the way they're going to be positioned in the playoffs.

[Rich Eisen]

What I saw yesterday, different than what I saw before, especially the previous Knicks teams, was he was able to get Brunson off the ball. And not that. Not that he's getting them off of it, to get it back in different ways. That makes the defense kind of shift and move around a little bit, work a little harder, especially when you're putting a bigger guy on Brunson, because that's the only way. Because Brunson is very brolic.

[Chris Broussard]

Yep.

[Rich Eisen]

And he's crafty as well. And he really shoots the ball really well from three, when you go under or, you know, catch and shoot. And he. And obviously he comes up in big moments. But that's what I see different. I see a guy like Brunson being able to get off the ball, go back and get it, get into his pick and roll actions. And then again, you got guys slipping, you got guys, they're advancing the ball. You're hitting the short corner, you're making the right. The ball is moving a lot more than it did in the Tibbs offense.

[Chris Broussard]

But the bench is better, the ball is moving, adjustments are made. But I still think.

[Rich Eisen]

I still think if I'm the Knicks and I'm looking at our situation, I'm saying, okay, we're good, we're good. The east is a little depleted. It's a little.

[Chris Broussard]

Who do you want to bring it.

[Rich Eisen]

All over the place? I look again, I definitely think it's from a guard perspective, if you're dissecting, if you break it, what is your playoff rotation? Because you got to cut it to eight or nine, right?

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, I think we know what it is.

[Rich Eisen]

So if you're looking at that, I'm really looking at how do I improve the back four.

[Chris Broussard]

Well, so who drops out? So you have your five starters, plus Mitch Clarkson, McBride, Kolik who's dropping out of that?

[Rich Eisen]

You forgot Shamet too.

[Chris Broussard]

Shamet. That's five guys off the bench. You're right.

[Rich Eisen]

I mean, you could play 10, you're not playing 12.

[Chris Broussard]

But one of the. You're not playing one of those five, you're not playing if you're bringing in someone else.

[Rich Eisen]

See, I think in the playoffs, right? And this is why depth matters. And I always say this to teams, and this is what players have to understand about being. Being role players in the playoffs. It's about each series and the style of the fight in each series.

[Chris Broussard]

Right.

[Rich Eisen]

There may be a playoff series where Clarkson matters. Right. And you have to lean on that. But there also may be a playoff series where you need Kolik, you need two ball handlers. So it's about having that depth.

[Chris Broussard]

When you say bring in a guard, are you talking about a guard who can also defend? A guard who can playmake a guard who can shoot? You're not gonna get all those or it's a snow.

[Rich Eisen]

So what are you looking a little bit more size, Right. And that can also play with Brunson. I like Josh Hart starting, but Josh Hart's the type of player, he's going to do whatever you ask him to do anyway.

[Chris Broussard]

And so this is the issue with the Knicks. Structurally, Josh Hart needs to shoot it better from long range. If Josh Hart shot the three like he's had a couple season in his career where he's not doing it well enough, if he shot the 3 well enough, let's say at least 35% or above for the season, then they're okay. Then he's. Then the starting five is the way you want it. The fact is, the reason you think that about Josh Hart, because he does everything else, is he doesn't shoot it well enough.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, well, he's never going to shoot it like a Desmond Bane would shoot it. But maybe I'm trying to think of a player that kind of turned themselves into a shooter like that on a good team.

[Chris Broussard]

A guard.

[Rich Eisen]

A guard that came in known for their defense hustle. You know, Josh Hart gets extra.

[Chris Broussard]

Tony Allen ever have any seasons where he shot it A little. I mean, it happens to me.

[Rich Eisen]

Tony has shot it.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, he shot it okay, a couple. But he was. I mentioned dream on the other day, not a guard, but Draymond had a season where I think he shot 38 from three.

[Rich Eisen]

If they win that game seven, he wins the MVP of the finals.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah.

[Chris Broussard]

But I mean, I think when you have a guy like Carl Anthony Towns. If you're playing him at the five, right then you have enough spacing on the floor that Josh Hart should be getting really good looks, you know, like everyone on the floor. OG is shooting it well. Mikhail Bridges shoots it well. Obviously Brunson. Josh Hart's getting. He should be getting good looks enough for him to shoot it well. But again, when Josh Hart shoots it well, they look like they're not going.

[Rich Eisen]

To turn him into somebody. He's not going to be just going.

[Chris Broussard]

Go get that guy.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, just go. And I'm just saying I never like to be complacent and sometimes I think teams, you know, you ride this regular season and then you get to a place and you need something. Who?

[Chris Broussard]

Who, Rich? Who?

[Rich Eisen]

Well, I have to think about it.

[Chris Broussard]

More, you know, who's available?

[Rich Eisen]

Who?

[Chris Broussard]

Chris Paul. That's not size though. Cause I want to get into Chris Paul.

[Rich Eisen]

Come on, Max.

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[Rich Eisen]

Oh yeah.

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[Chris Broussard]

I want to get it to Chris Paul because Ramona Shelburne has an article and people watching this are, I'm sure curious about what you're going to say about this. Because I'm curious about what you're gonna say about this. Let me set this up for you. So in the article, what comes out is that the Clippers brought Chris Paul in not just as a feel good look, he'll end his career here, but they want a low maintenance veteran on the bench who can provide veteran leadership. He's not gonna be getting a lot of minutes. Chris Paul comes in even if he's aware of that thinking, yeah, but I'm still Gonna compete, right? When he competes, they see he's actually pretty good, right? The bench is beating the starters and scrimmages, stuff like that. And his numbers are decent, right?

[Rich Eisen]

Look at that.

[Chris Broussard]

And that creates a problem for the Clippers. And now Chris Paul on my old radio partner here in la, Marcellus Wiley, used to say, when personality trumps production, you got an issue. And Chris Paul on his best day could be a pain in the ass, right? Because he was a vocal leader who was getting it like wants. And this is no longer his best day. So you had this dynamic where even though he's setting up meetings with Frank and with Ty Lu and he's trying to clear the air, nothing's really getting done, and eventually he's cut loose. So the reason I'm interested in what you're gonna say about this is from where I'm sitting, just looking at the. As an NBA fan, it's hard to tell. You imagine it's some of both, but it's hard to tell how much of this is pain in the ass. Chris Paul, who's not even like he once was, and how much of this is the Clippers Clippering because they were a complacent team this year. If he's getting on guys to get it right and he wants guys to spend more time together off the court, he wants to build relationship builders, and everyone's kind of lackadaisical about that. He has a point. Like, maybe they would be better with that. Who's to blame here? And by how much do you think?

[Rich Eisen]

Well, I think all ideas are good until they're bad, right? We can sit here and come up with every idea. And in the summertime, when you're trying to put a roster together, you're envisioning what guys probably used to do or what they were really good at, and you're trying to feel that. I'm not sure. It's definitely a shared accountability here, right? The fact of the matter is, we've known who Chris Paul has been his entire career, and you can't change a tiger stripes. It's just not gonna happen. So to expect him to sit at the end of the bench regardless. But regardless what was said, that's just not who he is. He's a competitor. When he wakes up, what about the.

[Chris Broussard]

Reaction to what he was trying to do? Like from what you know and understand and in your opinion, how much of that is. Yo, Chris, calm down a little bit. And how much of that is no Clippers? He's telling you the right Stuff.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, here's the thing.

[Chris Broussard]

Your reaction is the problem.

[Rich Eisen]

But here's the thing. I think you have to read the room. And in Chris case, I think he. Again, I don't know what took place, but I think he has to read the room in terms of I'm no longer that guy and I gotta look and see who my counterparts are. You look down the bench, you got a guy like Jeff Van Gundy. We all know Jeff Van Gundy. Jeff Van Gundy's an old school coach.

[Chris Broussard]

He tried to clear the air with Van Gundy, too, by.

[Rich Eisen]

Apparently, Lawrence Frank is an old. Lawrence Frank is a. Is an old school coach at heart. That's who he is.

[Chris Broussard]

Chris Paul's an old school player.

[Rich Eisen]

But here's what I'm saying.

[Chris Broussard]

He has the same mentality they do.

[Rich Eisen]

But what was being. Yeah, but. But now you have to have the conversation of what role do you guys actually want me to play? If they say to you, chris, we want you to be the sixth coach, and you agree to that, then that's the deal, right? But now here's the other part of that. Now you have your peers. And regardless what your peers may say in front of you, because you know one thing about athletes, they do not like confrontation. They don't like it. They just don't like it. I'm not saying, like competing and you get. That's not confrontation.

[Chris Broussard]

I'm talking about confrontation, interpersonal confrontation.

[Rich Eisen]

They don't like that. So now we don't know what was being talked about, what was being said.

[Chris Broussard]

Well, let me say one of the things in the article that came out was Chris Paul was changing defensive coverages and stuff like he was. And when they would change and the coaches were like, why'd you switch it up? They'd say that. They'd say basically what Chris told them. And then Chris was like, that was a suggestion. Rich, the reason that's instructive to me, from where I'm sitting, that's not wrong. The reason it's instructive to me is if the players are taking his suggestions or even taking what he says as authority. To me, that means the players who are on the field of play, on the court think that there's wisdom in what he's saying.

[Rich Eisen]

There's no.

[Chris Broussard]

Think, don't get a guy, but they're losing every game.

[Rich Eisen]

So here's what I'm saying.

[Chris Broussard]

Why are the coaches beefing with him? Trying to make it better?

[Rich Eisen]

But here's my thing. You don't get a guy that's played that long. That does not have wisdom. Of course. Let's just be clear about that now. Again, it matters what the conversation was. Put it this way, when Andy Reid wants to make a play call, he leads up to. If Pat Mahomes sees something and he calls an audible, he has all the autonomy to do that. Right. I'm pretty sure in everywhere CP's ever.

[Chris Broussard]

Played, he's had that. If he sees something, he's a field.

[Rich Eisen]

General as well as all of the great players, Right?

[Chris Broussard]

Not anymore.

[Rich Eisen]

But here's what I'm saying. All the way up until whatever conversation was had. And if the conversation was had, to say, hey, we understand it, but instead of you going to the players, bring it to us. That's one thing.

[Chris Broussard]

Okay, interesting, interesting.

[Rich Eisen]

If that conversation was not had and he's just doing a natural thing because.

[Chris Broussard]

At the end of the day, you're in the moment.

[Rich Eisen]

You have to be able to feel your way through the basketball game regardless. Yeah.

[Chris Broussard]

It's not colored by numbers. Right, right, right, right.

[Rich Eisen]

But here's the other thing. I see a lot of players, ex players, et cetera, they talk about this and they talk about their discourse and things like that. One of the biggest issues on any team, just like one of the biggest issues in any band. Right. Is being able to be on one accord. Because no matter what, in locker rooms, in bands, in rap groups, there's still a competitive nature amongst each other even while being on the same team.

[Chris Broussard]

And that's supposed to actually make everything better, but it's supposed to be according to one kind of unit.

[Rich Eisen]

Yes.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah. And that also came out in the article, is that there was a sense that he was undermining the coaching staff.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, this is what I'm saying. If it's gotten to that point and then that means there needs to be a conversation. If there was a conversation and then there was a still and there was still an action. Okay. Then there was another conversation and there was still an action. What I'm trying to understand is at what point does it get to where you have to send someone home at that level?

[Chris Broussard]

So let's stop right there. That's what I'm really asking is like, this is what I'm so curious about. And maybe it's an unanswered, but.

[Rich Eisen]

I.

[Chris Broussard]

Think I'm asking, I'm wondering who was right. Like in the end, I understand that you're laying out the dynamic, but in the end, to me it matters whether Chris Paul was right, that the team needed more bonding, needed more, needed to change up some stuff on defense.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah.

[Chris Broussard]

But I think that needed to confront each other more. Or was the Clippers brass Right. Or the coaches right.

[Rich Eisen]

Like, no, that situation is like a marriage.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

Somebody has to choose. And I'm gonna tell you, my lawyer told me this years ago, because I always used to.

[Chris Broussard]

In other words, who had to be the husband and say, okay, fine, you're right.

[Rich Eisen]

No, here's the thing. I used to always see him, and I'm like, wow, Fred, you and Jackie, y' all have such a great relationship. She's always happy. You always happy. It's, like, beautiful. You know what he told me? He said, rich, I made a decision. I'd rather be happy than Right.

[Chris Broussard]

Right.

[Rich Eisen]

So somebody in that situation who should have.

[Chris Broussard]

That's what I'm saying. Like, But. But in the clip. Here's the difference there. The Clippers were not functioning. They were not functioning without the wins and losses.

[Rich Eisen]

The wins and losses don't boil down to one player. They're the oldest team in the league.

[Chris Broussard]

No, of course. But maybe. But he. It's not so much his play as it's. This is the way we should approach things.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, but here's what I'm saying. When you're already losing, sometimes, even if you're saying the right thing, but we're already in this funk, and it's just this.

[Chris Broussard]

Shut up.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah. Sometimes you just have to. You just have to really, really be able to read the room. And I know Chris is smart enough to do that, but then there's also a competitiveness inside of you. And then there's also like a, you know, like, how could you. How are we not even looking at this? But again, you have to pick your spots. Anybody have to pick your spots. You have to pick your spots.

[Chris Broussard]

Was he right about it? If what he was saying is we're not. We're not. There's not enough camaraderie. We're not on the same page. People don't seem interested and plugged in. They seem uninterested.

[Rich Eisen]

It'd be hard to say that he's not right about basketball things. I would never say.

[Chris Broussard]

Maybe still, it's not a matter.

[Rich Eisen]

I would never say that Chris Paul isn't right about basketball things, but it could have been the wrong time for him to say, you know, who he felt was right.

[Chris Broussard]

What always impressed me about Chris Paul, and then we can move on is unless you. Unless you want to talk about it more. But I think about the kind of point guard that a guy like Larry Brown back in the day would describe, like, this is what a point guard should do. Chris Paul is like, the platonic ideal of a Larry Brown point guard. Chris Paul did. Like, I just. When I was, like, just listening to when Larry Brown was going through it with AI or whatever else. Larry Brown must have watched Chris Paul coming up and guys like that and been, like, showing everyone that's how you do it. Just like that.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, that. Well, that matters. Yeah, that matters. But again, Larry Brown's not coaching.

[Chris Broussard]

No. And the league has changed also. The league has changed.

[Rich Eisen]

And again, there's some. You need some of that. You definitely need some of that. But it's. There's a measuring cup to it. No matter if you got young guys, if you have older guys, again, even as kids, your own parents, I mean, he has kids. Like, there's gonna be a time and a place to where.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah. And you could easily see where Chris would get that.

[Rich Eisen]

There's a. What I would say, a speedometer on how you do things in the locker room. You gotta know when to accelerate, when to take some of the gas off.

[Chris Broussard]

Foot off the gas.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, just a little bit, you know? And again, I'm not in the locker room, and I chose not to even speak to T Lou about it because it's like.

[Chris Broussard]

So you're saying it's Chris Paul's fault? That's how I hear what you said.

[Rich Eisen]

No, I'm not saying Chris Paul, big picture. I'm saying there's anything like that happens.

[Chris Broussard]

I can't say that big picture is, from what I'm getting from your analysis, is whether Chris Paul was right or wrong on the specifics. He probably should have handled it differently.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, I'm saying you have a choice in that situation, and you have a responsibility, and you have to be able to read the room. I don't know what he was trying to get out of it or not. I don't know what said in the summer conversation. And I don't represent him. So if I tell you this, if I represented Chris.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

And I was talking to the Clippers about him joining the team, the first thing that you're asking is, okay, what type of role is this? Because I need to be able to let him know if they say, okay, we want him to play 12 to 15 minutes a game, blah, blah, blah. You know what his jacket looks like. You already know what his jacket looks like. So coming in, if you have any discourse to what his paperwork says when he comes into that locker room, then let's talk about this now. So I can be able to prep my client and say, hey, we know who you are, we know what you're used to doing. But just so you know, this ain't the place for that. So they want you to play 12 to 15 minutes a game and or you're not gonna play at all. The only time you're gonna play is when such and such and such.

[Chris Broussard]

I want you to. When your job is to amplify the coach's message, not necessarily your own.

[Rich Eisen]

Interesting. Going back to the Cavs, Kobe Altman said, hey Rich, we need a guy in the locker room, but I just want you to know he's not going to play. So my thing is. And he actually said actually he may play a couple games if guy go down or whatever. But my thing is you're not playing at all. I said the same thing to Corey Joseph with the magic. Corey, you're not playing at all. Don't even think about it. Just go in there, be a pro. You know, be. Cause you gotta have a balance in these situations too. You gotta be a little pro player. And then you know, if you're, you.

[Chris Broussard]

Gotta see the big picture for the sake of your client. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

But if you're also working towards, if you're the player and you're working towards post career, maybe you want to go into front office, maybe you want to go into coaching. So I was telling Tristan like if you want to go in the front office, spend some time with the front office. If you want to go into coaches, sit in some of the coaches meetings. So I don't know what the setup was is what I'm saying. So what I am saying is yes, CP has a responsibility and I would tell him that if I talk to him, but so does the Clippers. There's a shared accountability in all of it and. And really there's no winner.

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[Rich Eisen]

They do.

[Chris Broussard]

You know what? Athletes don't hate confrontation. Fighters, boxers, well, they're born a confrontation that's in front of each other, the foreign confrontation. Terence Crawford, who is, you know, sometimes rich. A situation illuminates what has happened in the past. For example, you can have debates about who the best pound for pound fighter in the world is. And then events unfold in a way that you go, oh, I see, that dude was always the best, right? Like he just didn't have the opportunity to show it. Or we were a little confused by events at the time. Terrence Crawford, when you look at his career, may have been the best pound for pound fighter in the world for over the over a decade, but he just never really had the opportunity to show it because he was so dangerous. Other stars didn't want to fight him because as soon as the other stars fought him, he beat the brakes off him. And Terence Crawford, who just beat Canelo Alvarez, he's on top of the world. He's a major star now in sports, not just boxing. Like, people know who he is. Undefeated, the only, only had one fight in his career where it was even like, this guy's really competing with him and it was way above his natural weight class against a tricky southpaw who was undefeated named Madrimov. And still at the end of the fight, it wasn't like, hey, did Crawford lose that fight? You knew he won the fight. Like, even Floyd didn't do that. Floyd Mayweather had a fight with Jose Luis Castillo when he first moved up to lightweight, where a lot of people still think Castillo won. If I watched that fight on a Monday, I might say, maybe Floyd edged it out on a Tuesday. I'd be like, nah, Castillo. It's like one of those fights. Crawford never had a fight like that in his career. There's never a reason to give a guy a rematch because it wasn't like, oh, who won that fight? Or who's better? He retired yesterday. Bud retired. Terrence Bud Crawford retired. And if he stays retired, he is one of the very greatest fighters of all time. Like the way I explain this to you and the way I explain it to people. And you'll get this. Because you don't like putting this guy won or this guy when they're all on the top shelf to you. Right. There are some.

[Rich Eisen]

No, I have another thing about that.

[Chris Broussard]

Okay.

[Rich Eisen]

They're all. There's. There's. You can be allowed in the room.

[Chris Broussard]

Okay.

[Rich Eisen]

But there's only certain tables that you can sit at. So who.

[Chris Broussard]

And only if the light hits you a certain way on a Tuesday. And you. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

Speaking of bud and fighting, I had a fight with myself the other day.

[Chris Broussard]

Okay.

[Rich Eisen]

I had the. I did the hardest thing ever to. I never realized how hard these things is.

[Chris Broussard]

What is it?

[Rich Eisen]

You ever. You ever had to, like, sneak out of somewhere and people were like, having a really in depth conversation, but you had to leave and you had to sneak out. Yes. There's no real. There's no real, like, great way of sneaking out of somewhere.

[Chris Broussard]

Sure.

[Rich Eisen]

Because you can't announce and be like, hey, everybody, I'm about to leave.

[Chris Broussard]

Because you're drawing attention to yourself.

[Rich Eisen]

Like, what?

[Chris Broussard]

And it also depends. Do you want to be there or do you wish you could stay or were you trying to leave?

[Rich Eisen]

I was kind of caught between the rock and the hard place, because I definitely had to leave. There was no question about it.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

But there was like, wagyu steak with truffles. There was crab. And then there was a great conversation being had by our 44th president, Mr. Barack Obama. And you know, when he speaks, it's like a calm app. You're just there. And I'm looking at the truffles and I'm like, but I have to leave. I'm already 40 minutes behind me needing to actually leave anyway to go to.

[Chris Broussard]

Your own launch party.

[Rich Eisen]

And I'm. And I have to be waiting on. Yeah. And I have people waiting on me, friends and family, and I have to leave. And then I'm like, my chair seems so heavy, and I'm like, damn, I'm trying to scoot the chair back without making any noise.

[Chris Broussard]

How many people were at the dinner with you?

[Rich Eisen]

And 44. I think it's like 12 people. It was only like 12 people. And I'm like, this is.

[Chris Broussard]

Was it commented upon that you were leaving?

[Rich Eisen]

No, but also, I don't want to interrupt the conversation because there was real topics.

[Chris Broussard]

Big time Barack Obama.

[Rich Eisen]

No, I did not.

[Chris Broussard]

You did.

[Rich Eisen]

You know I did. No, I. No, I did not. That is not that, because. No, no, no.

[Chris Broussard]

You were at dinner having a great time. Obama's there.

[Rich Eisen]

No, no, no.

[Chris Broussard]

Only 11 other people. You're one of the disciples. You're 12 other people.

[Rich Eisen]

But I did.

[Chris Broussard]

And you got up and left.

[Rich Eisen]

No, I did say there was an event that I had to be at, so that's true. But what I was trying not to do is draw any attention to the fact that I had to leave. And I was trying to be, what you call it, respectful to the people that were also waiting on me to get to a place. And so I'm caught between this rock and a hard place. And I'm looking at the truffles, and I'm looking at. You know, I'm a seafood lover. I'm looking at this fresh crab that was flown in. There's a great conversation, and I'm like, is there a seatbelt on this chair? Because I'm trying to get up.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, you can't do it.

[Rich Eisen]

And so I go for the. I go for the. I'm gonna go to the bathroom play. But then when I get to the bathroom that is closest to the door, so I can just. It was occupied, so now they have to take me to a different bathroom.

[Chris Broussard]

Did you have to walk through back.

[Rich Eisen]

I had to walk back through, but it threw me off my course.

[Chris Broussard]

Your exit strategy.

[Rich Eisen]

And I'm just like. I felt like I was.

[Chris Broussard]

You're like Larry David.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, I felt like I was in the episode. I'm like, this is crazy, because what you said. What you just said is the last thing you want somebody to think. So now I'm sending text messages to everybody, you know, with my. Excuse me, you know, but what do you do in that situation? I'm sure everyone has been in a situation where.

[Chris Broussard]

Where they're having dinner with Barack Obama. And I have. Big time.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah. About. Have you ever been to a Baptist church?

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

When you're trying to leave.

[Chris Broussard]

You know, I thought about that. I have, but not on a Sunday for service like I've been in. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

But when you're trying to leave in that sit. I was just like. There was a fight within myself. It felt like I was fighting Bud Crawford for sure. In the fact that I'm trying to get out of us. I'm trying to be respectful to a situation.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah. To the president. Former president of the United States.

[Rich Eisen]

Get to a situation. So it was. You know, But I just wanted to know, like, have you ever been in that situation? It was so hard to make that decision.

[Chris Broussard]

I can't think of it off the top of my head that I. That were at.

[Rich Eisen]

That's a tough spot to be in.

[Chris Broussard]

I Mean, I've had to. Everyone's had to dip out of places. You know what I mean? Usually most places, I don't actually want to be there. I want to be, like, at home watching the game, you know?

[Rich Eisen]

But I want to make it clear to Barack, you know, that was not the case. He knows that, by the way.

[Chris Broussard]

But he says, don't you apologize. But he says, you want to do your mea culpa like I did to Adam Silver. Why don't you apologize to Barack Obama for big timing?

[Rich Eisen]

No, because. No, I did not big time him. You had a. I don't need to do that. But what I will say, it wasn't what it looked like, Barack. It was not what it looked like. He knows that because call him Barry.

[Chris Broussard]

You're on the first.

[Rich Eisen]

You know, because he says he's going to watch the show, too. So.

[Chris Broussard]

All right.

[Rich Eisen]

And I don't want to mess up what could be an opportunity. So I just wanted to be clear.

[Chris Broussard]

Yes. And to the gracious host.

[Rich Eisen]

To the gracious host as well. I wanted to be very clear about that. So. Yeah, but that was a tough one.

[Chris Broussard]

Can you just meet with Barack Obama? Or you have to parlay it into something else. You're always parlaying everything. Just have dinner with Barack Obama.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, the parlay is the relationship.

[Chris Broussard]

What is it?

[Rich Eisen]

Well, you know, you read the book. Lucky me, I'm a gambler.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, I see that.

[Rich Eisen]

That is. The parlay is all part of it.

[Chris Broussard]

You know, I was the only reason. I'm gonna finish this thought because we should end on that. But I wanna say something about Bud before we get outta here.

[Rich Eisen]

Okay.

[Chris Broussard]

You said about. Cause this started with the top. You reminded me when you brought up Bud, you said this was the other day about Jordan and Steph. You said, steph is on the same shelf as Jordan. And I said, different shelves. And you were. Whatever it was. When I interviewed Bud after he beat Canelo and I said, you're the goat of this era. And people were like, what do you mean, greatest of all time? You can have greatest of all time of a certain era. The point is, of all time.

[Rich Eisen]

Well, Michael always made that point.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, he did. He did. But what I was saying. And what I am saying is there are some athletes that come along in different sports where the people who watched them through that era, the people who grew up with them or who paid attention to their careers, who lived through their era, you will never be able to tell them anything about that player. The kids who grew up watching LeBron James or Kobe Bryant. You can't like to them. You try to tell them about Michael Jordan, they know. Come on, man. No one could. I put eyes on this dude. No one could have been better than this dude. There are some athletes like that. There aren't so many of them, but they exist. I mentioned two of them in the NBA. That is what Bud Crawford is. In boxing. The people, the kids, the people who grew up, the people who watched him through his era, you will never be able to tell them that anyone could have beaten him. He's one of those. Like, Floyd Mayweather was like this. Sugar Ray Robinson was like this. Bud is one of those dudes, and they're not that common.

[Rich Eisen]

The only thing, first of all, love Bud Crawford.

[Chris Broussard]

Yep.

[Rich Eisen]

Everything about him.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, me, too.

[Rich Eisen]

Literally, everything about Bud. The only thing I hate is that I think Buddy. Bud was a little cheated in his career. Because now you had things like the UFC and there was all eyeballs. Wasn't on boxing where those other guys came at a time where all the eyeballs was on boxing. If all the eyeballs was on boxing with Bud, I don't know, man. I mean, I'm not the boxing guru like you are, but you have to put him there.

[Chris Broussard]

You still have to put him there in this era. Like what? Because I'm talking about in any era, I'm saying. But like, in modern boxing or in recent boxing history, last 20 years, let's say the comparison's always gonna be with Floyd. They were around the same size. They can't. Their careers overlapped. And Floyd was a better defensive fighter, and he was faster. But if people think about that matchup, Bud's IQ is just as high. He's a better puncher, and he's a savage finisher. So when people think about those guys fighting each other, Floyd is up on points. Of course, eventually, at some point, Bud's gonna tag him with something, and who knows what happens then? I mean, that's a. He's one of those dudes.

[Rich Eisen]

The thing about Bud fears. There's no fear. There's no fear.

[Chris Broussard]

Well, there is fear of one thing for him. His mom always told him, oh, yeah, you ain't gonna be shit. That's what she told him. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

That's different.

[Chris Broussard]

Bud's fear is proving her right.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, that's what.

[Chris Broussard]

He's scared. That's why you could put him in with Godzilla. Godzilla doesn't scare him. Yeah. It's proving his mom right. That scares him. He's. Yeah. One of the men. If it's really over.

[Rich Eisen]

It's amazing the way that he switches. I mean, I was at the fight too, the way that he switches styles.

[Chris Broussard]

Southpaw, orthodox. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

And then I saw, I saw an interview today by. What's his name? Tim. What's the boxer? Tim Bradley. Tim Bradley. And he was saying how he.

[Chris Broussard]

Sparring stories.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, the sparring story. And he was like, who is this kid? He came by himself. They had a red eye flight for him to go back if he was just.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, Tim's the best. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

And he said he got in the ring, they were supposed to go six rounds and they only went four.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, Usually it's a sparring partner that taps out.

[Rich Eisen]

Yeah, right. And then he said he called his.

[Chris Broussard]

Cameron Duncan, late Cameron.

[Rich Eisen]

Hey, can I get this guy out of his contract? Because he just wasn't getting the support.

[Chris Broussard]

That's happened throughout boxing history where one fighter sees another fighter, sometimes they don't want to fight him and they'll purchase.

[Rich Eisen]

He said he went and watched the film from the sparring match and was coming in the next day or the next time they sparred to give him the constructive criticism.

[Chris Broussard]

No, no, he was watching the film. I know what you're talking about because I saw the same reel. He was watching the film. Tim was to make adjustments for the next day.

[Rich Eisen]

Exactly. And then he adjusted himself.

[Chris Broussard]

And Crawford, who had no access to that film, was adjusting to the adjustments. And that's when he knew it's different, this guy is. And the reason he was ducked for so long, Crawford. And I remember this because I was there at HBO when there was another fighter, Adrian Brauner, you probably remember him from. He was at his best 10, 15 years ago, really good, talented, junior lightweight. And Brauner was out of Cincinnati, like a class clown type personality and rambunctious and all this. And there was a sense back then that there was pressure for black fighters, for African American fighters, meaning black fighters in this country to, oh, if they don't have a gold medal, they can't sell tickets. Right. So if you're Mexican or Mexican American, you have this huge built in fan base because it's a huge sport in Mexico. And they'll show out for their fighters, they'll show up for their fighters. But if you're a black fighter, you have to beclown yourself somehow or you have to be outrageous or controversial in order to generate the kind of coverage of you that would then generate the money to get other fighters to fight you. And the idea was back then, and I was there, I was at HBO at the time, I remember the idea was back then in the boxing kind of press and the power brokers is that if you were a black fighter and you didn't have an over the top personality, and you didn't have a gold medal and you weren't a heavyweight.

[Rich Eisen]

Let'S say, couldn't be a draw, and.

[Chris Broussard]

You were as good as Crawford, you were beating the hell out of guys. How are you going to get them in the ring with you? And so I used to ask Bud about that back in the day. I talked to him and he was very shy in the beginning, you know, but he'd be like, I'd be like, so how do you. What do you think about this? And he's like, I'm just gonna be me, and I'm just gonna keep beating in front anyone they. Everyone they put in front of me. And he was principled and true to himself the entire time. And because he was so like. There's a famous quote in boxing that Joe Frazier saw Marvin Hagler, and when he was coming up in the ranks and he said Frazier told him, you have three strikes against you. You're black, you're southpaw, and you're good right now. Frazier was wrong only because Hagler wasn't good. He was great. So he kept winning and eventually he got there and so was Crawford. Same thing. It didn't matter how dangerous he was or how quiet he was. He just kept kicking everybody's ass. And eventually the world had to recognize.

[Rich Eisen]

I equate that to a music artist that stays aligned with who they are. The theatrics we don't need. We're not gonna get out of art. And I'm just gonna build a very core fan base. So now when you talk about, yes. Streaming and all that, and you talk about hard ticket sales. Yeah. A guy may outstream this artist, but they're not gonna outsell that and they're not gonna last. And they're not last.

[Chris Broussard]

By the way. You know, what my mind immediately goes to is Wu Tang.

[Rich Eisen]

The. Like the Jinni Tyler, the creator.

[Chris Broussard]

But remember when this might be before your time. The genius was. Had a deal at, you know, what was the song We Love youe Raheem. And it was very pop type stuff. And they covered this in the show that they did on Wu Tang on. I think it was on Hulu.

[Rich Eisen]

That was a great show, by the way.

[Chris Broussard]

It was. It was good. But the point was, he learned early on, I'm not gonna sell out just to get a record deal. And Then once they were true to themselves. Now they're one of the most legendary groups of all time.

[Rich Eisen]

So that's what Bud did. Like, you have to be enamored by his. Everything that he brings to the sport of boxing and how he went out and even his message yesterday, it was just profound. So.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

You know, yeah. Listen, cheers to Bud. Cheers to Bud. For sure.

[Chris Broussard]

Congratulations, champ.

[Rich Eisen]

What's up? The NBA Cup. I thought about something.

[Chris Broussard]

Yeah, go ahead. Before we get outta here, let's go back to the NBA Cup.

[Rich Eisen]

The 2028 Olympics is gonna be very interesting.

[Chris Broussard]

Okay.

[Rich Eisen]

And I'm looking at wimby, and I'm thinking about Team France, and I'm also thinking about Team usa. We don't have to talk about this today, but I'm just like, this is interesting.

[Chris Broussard]

If you're going where I think you're going, go ahead.

[Rich Eisen]

This is going to be very interesting because we saw Team France just this.

[Chris Broussard]

Past, and they were a lot.

[Rich Eisen]

They were a lot to handle. A lot to handle. The USA team is not going to have LeBron. They're not going to have Steph. At least I don't think so.

[Chris Broussard]

Right. Can Anthony Edwards lead the USA against the world?

[Rich Eisen]

Well, here's the thing. It's not just like, who knows? Is Jayson Tatum going to choose to play or not play? Right. I'm just saying.

[Chris Broussard]

And I was just saying we're the underdogs. We're kind of the underdogs, but the.

[Rich Eisen]

Pressure is on us because the Olympics is in la.

[Chris Broussard]

Rich, that's so good. We got to get into this. Not right now. Not right now. We got.

[Rich Eisen]

I mean, it's hot right now.

[Chris Broussard]

Listen, we have holiday shows coming up. That's an evergreen. Let's do it. Let's do it for the holiday shows. Ooh, I love that.

[Rich Eisen]

I thought we was talking about Kobe today. What happened?

[Chris Broussard]

We'll do that for the holiday shows, too.

[Rich Eisen]

So I wore my jeans for nothing.

[Chris Broussard]

What'd you wear?

[Rich Eisen]

You didn't see the bts?

[Chris Broussard]

Oh, you wore it in.

[Rich Eisen]

Yes.

[Chris Broussard]

We both got Timbs on today, by the way.

[Rich Eisen]

Different styles. You wore it in.

[Chris Broussard]

You know, the last time I had.

[Rich Eisen]

Tim's on, you wore a little Cleveland Benedictine.

[Chris Broussard]

I mean, this is in New York, but that's, you know, growing up, that was the. The uniform was either Tim's or what they call uptowns, which is white on white, Air Force ones, jean shorts, undershirts.

[Rich Eisen]

You know, but those are.

[Chris Broussard]

Can't even say what they were called back then.

[Rich Eisen]

Those are super fly. Yeah. You know when I used to wear those, when I knew everyone else would be in something different. Uh huh. Because I wanted to go for this preppy look. That was a very preppy look.

[Chris Broussard]

It was, yes.

[Rich Eisen]

These are universal. These could. One thing about these, these could be house shoes. They could be. You can. They could be for actual work.

[Chris Broussard]

But they get a mark on them and you gotta. You gotta get. That's the problem. Yeah.

[Rich Eisen]

Didn't you hear Chic Luke?

[Chris Broussard]

Come on, man.

[Rich Eisen]

I rock a waist length mink durag under my fitted and I don't even want waves Timbs be halfway new. The halfway new Timbs is the way to go.

[Chris Broussard]

No, I'm just saying in New York.

[Rich Eisen]

These are halfway new.

[Chris Broussard]

You think these are new In New York, growing up, the Timbs this is. It was really. It's a form of conspicuous consumption. Because if had the white on white uptown, the. The Air Force ones or those Tims, the constructs, they were so easy to mess up that since they were always new, it was like a flex.

[Rich Eisen]

But that. No, the flex. Yes. No, no. The flexes Tims is halfway new, not always new. The flexes. The Timbs was half. It is.

[Chris Broussard]

That's why. That's why you had to wear the beef and broccolis back in the day. Because you could keep them looking new.

[Rich Eisen]

The beef and broccoli. The gore Texas, I had them all by the way, when Bishop comes in. The super Tims, we used to call them those two. But no, the Timbs being halfway new is the flex new outfit.

[Chris Broussard]

If only that were true.

[Rich Eisen]

Okay, we could take a poll on this new outfit and halfway new Timbs is a real flex.

[Chris Broussard]

Could they do halfway new uptowns? That'd be great.

[Rich Eisen]

Wouldn't have to get rid of different story. No, you can't do halfway new uptown. No, no, no, no, no, no. See, there's a certain. That's. We'll talk about this.

[Chris Broussard]

To be continued.

[Rich Eisen]

To be continued.

[Chris Broussard]

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[Chris Broussard]

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[Chris Broussard]

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[Rich Eisen]

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