Lakers Are Rolling, Shaky Ground in Philly, and Some Hot Takes From NBA Legends | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Lakers Are Rolling, Shaky Ground in Philly, and Some Hot Takes From NBA Legends

Original Air Date: April 1, 2026 | The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the surging Los Angeles Lakers, the changing chemistry and leadership within their roster, uncertainty and complex dynamics in Philadelphia with Jalen Hurts, and a spirited discussion about NBA legacy conversations, featuring reactions to comments by legends like Robert Parish and John Starks. The hosts blend personal stories, pop culture references, and deep basketball knowledge, all delivered in their signature, lively banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lakers’ Late-Season Turnaround and Team Chemistry

Timestamps: 08:54 – 15:58

• Lakers dominate the Cavs: The show opens with Max and Rich marveling at the Lakers’ recent dominance, emphasizing their transformation from chemistry issues to becoming one of the most cohesive teams late in the season.
• JJ Redick’s impact as Lakers coach:
  • “He is, they’ve never been like, below 500...all the loose edges were fraying ... this is heading toward a disaster of a season. Not only has it not been a disaster ...they’re like the chemistry team now.”
    — Max Kellerman [09:27]
  • Redick’s unique experience as both a player under elite coaches and media personality aids his ability to manage big-name egos and facilitate buy-in.
• LeBron/Luka dynamic:
  • LeBron is credited for his patience in finding his role, and Luka for maturing into a leader willing to play both ends.
  • Max highlights “Austin Reaves always plays the right way, he’s never a problem” [15:21], with both hosts praising the supporting cast’s adaptability.
• Locker Room pressure:
  • Rich compares finding team rhythm to “getting your steps together at a bar mitzvah” [13:13], warning against overreacting to regular-season ups and downs — “People put too much pressure on themselves to do everything tomorrow.”
• Playoff pressure:
  • Despite regular-season chemistry, the Lakers’ playoff prospects are still questioned: “What won’t hamper them is chemistry ... they seem to have figured that out.” — Max [15:04]

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2. Tiger Woods DUI & Celebrity Accountability

Timestamps: 15:58 – 22:02

• Tiger Woods’ recent arrest:
  • Max dissects the difference between publicist-driven statements by celebrities versus real accountability when it comes to DUI:
    • “Usually, they release a statement ... it casts them as a victim of substance addiction as opposed to the perpetrator of a crime.” [16:17]
  • Both hosts empathize with the ease of addiction, especially for athletes managing constant pain and expectations.
  • Rich references the documentary “Dope” as a lens for understanding broader societal opioid issues.
• Double standard for celebrities:
  • “What shouldn’t affect your judgment is you got a gazillion dollars. You got to get a driver.” — Rich [21:03]

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3. Jalen Hurts, Leadership, and the Philadelphia Eagles

Timestamps: 23:57 – 41:40

• Hurts under scrutiny:
  • Max critically analyzes ESPN reports on friction regarding Jalen Hurts and the Eagles’ play-calling philosophies.
  • “When you don’t play as well ... the ballers on the team are looking at you a little sideways...especially if it seems like you don’t want to run anymore.” [26:46]
• Leadership and locker room culture:
  • Rich stresses the monumental pressure on NFL quarterbacks:
    • “You’re like grandma getting ready for the family reunion. You’re responsible for everything.” [30:03]
  • The conversation addresses the fine balance between authenticity and relatability, especially for Black quarterbacks:
    • “Sometimes, if you’re not one of the guys, or people don’t feel like you’re one of the guys, it could come with a little distance.” — Rich [36:52]
  • They discuss the unique racial dynamics in leadership expectations and the extra complexity for Black QBs (“There’s an extra layer of complexity...it’s less about the racial component of black and white, and it’s more about just...two different life experiences.” — Rich [36:54])
• Authenticity at the top:
  • Max: “If you were able to read someone’s mind, anyone’s mind...you’d be disgusted with humanity...Of course you can’t be 100% authentically who you are in public.” [40:29]
• 10% “act” is OK:
  • Both agree a little bit of “act” is necessary, but when it gets too big, trust is lost.

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4. Dan Hurley ‘Headbutt-Gate’ and the Nature of Coaching Greatness

Timestamps: 41:10 – 49:41

• Dan Hurley’s emotional moment:
  • Max and Rich discuss UConn coach Dan Hurley nearly getting a technical for a celebratory “head bump” with a referee.
  • “Dan Hurley, who’s won back-to-back national titles, part of what makes him great is that he’s got a screw a little bit loose.” — Max [43:05]
• Comparisons to Draymond Green:
  • Max likens Hurley’s competitive “edge” to Draymond Green’s, warning, “You want to ride that thing to be great—the other hand, you have to know...don’t let people push you over it.” [45:41]
• Racial component of benefit-of-the-doubt:
  • “If Dan Hurley were a black coach, Tech. He gets a Tech.” — Rich [46:09]
  • Both stress these situations are circumstantial but don't deny the racial undertones in perception.

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5. NBA Hot Takes: Robert Parish & John Starks on Legacy

Timestamps: 56:52 – 75:59

Robert Parish on LeBron, KD, Bird, and Jokic

• Parish (referencing a recent panel) hesitated to put LeBron or KD over Bird, but hinted Jokic “may have to bring out another seat for him” at the table of all-time greats [57:53].
• Max’s response:
  • Firmly asserts LeBron is ahead of Bird, but emphasizes how close Bird was at his peak:
    • “LeBron in his day was greater than Bird in Bird’s day. Barely.” [58:52]
  • Both hosts agree Larry Bird is criminally underrated by newer fans, with Max stressing Bird’s IQ and the transformative effect he had on franchises.

John Starks’s HOT TAKE: Jordan vs. LeBron’s “Homegrown” Teams

• Starks claimed, “Michael made his teammates better ... LeBron really didn’t grow nobody. He joined talent.” [64:52]
• Rich’s rebuttal:
  • Breaks down the difference in player agency and organization-driven team construction, lauding LeBron’s Finals run with a subpar 2007 Cavs roster.
  • “When you have these guys go on these shows and say things, they haven’t done the work.” [70:24]
  • Challenges the myth that staying put equals loyalty or greatness, noting LeBron was forced to seek competitive rosters through free agency.
• Max pushes back on weak MJ arguments:
  • “You don’t need to make weak MJ arguments. In fact, from now on, everyone—I’m going to send everyone the talking points on MJ.” [73:28]
• Stronger case for MJ supremacy lies elsewhere—not in cherry-picked team-building critiques.

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6. Quick Hits

Timestamps: 76:01 – 78:02

• Knicks struggle with three straight losses, mainly due to Brunson’s matchup issues with athletic defenders [76:09].
• Steph Curry cleared for full-contact scrimmage—no surprise to Rich.
• LeBron surpasses all-time wins record (regular season + playoffs), prompting awe from both.

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7. Listener Mailbag: Wade vs. Harden and “Better vs. Greater”

Timestamps: 77:28 – 82:10

• Debate: Is Harden a “better” player than Wade (“greater” is settled in Wade’s favor)?
• Max:
  • Clarifies his invention of “better vs. greater,” noting contemporaries should be judged on playoff performance.
  • “If you are better in those [high leverage] games, you are better, period. So Wade is better than Harden.” [79:19]
• Rich:
  • Wade is the 3rd best shooting guard all-time, trailing only Jordan and Kobe (with Jerry West in the conversation).
  • Harden is just outside the top group, but has a case if he wins a title.
• Both hosts: Playoff greatness outweighs gaudy regular-season stats for evaluating legacies.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "I’m not excusing any kind of driving under the influence. Isn’t it pretty apparent what’s going on?...He gets magic pills that help him play through it, he gets addicted to the pills. Pretty straightforward to me." — Max, reflecting on Tiger Woods [17:36]
• “You’re not grandma getting ready for the family reunion, you’re responsible for everything.” — Rich, on QB pressures [30:03]
• “It’s okay for you to be you, in my opinion ... Sometimes, it could—sometimes, if you’re not one of the guys ... it could come with a little distance.” — Rich, on authenticity for star Black athletes [36:52]
• “If Dan Hurley were a black coach, Tech. He gets a Tech.” — Rich [46:09]
• “Bird was better than Magic ... Larry Bird ran the NBA. He was Jordan before there was Jordan.” — Max [60:52]
• “When you have these guys go on these shows and say things, they haven’t done the work.” — Rich, refuting John Starks [70:24]
• “If you are better in those games, you are better, period. So Wade is better than Harden.” — Max [79:19]
• “LeBron James ain’t ending his career with the Clippers ... it’s a cute team. LeBron James ain’t ending his career with the Clippers. Stop.” — Max shutting down trade rumors [53:56]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Lakers’ chemistry & Redick’s coaching: 08:54 – 15:58
• Tiger Woods & DUI discussion: 15:58 – 22:02
• Hurts, Eagles, and the modern QB: 23:57 – 41:40
• Dan Hurley & coaching emotion: 41:10 – 49:41
• Parish/Bird/LeBron legacy talk: 56:52 – 62:34
• John Starks, “homegrown” vs. recruited stars: 64:52 – 75:59
• Quick NBA news: 76:01 – 78:02
• Better vs. Greater: Wade vs. Harden: 77:28 – 82:10

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Conclusion

This episode features Max and Rich at their analytic, opinionated best—debating legacy, dissecting narratives, and blending humor with nuanced perspectives. Whether discussing this season’s Lakers, the burden on quarterbacks like Hurts, or settling all-time debates, the show offers fans a rich mix of storytelling, basketball insight, and culture.

For NBA fans and sports culture observers, this episode is a must-listen, especially for the extended, engaging breakdowns of legacy, leadership, and what truly makes a player great.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Max?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you notice anything different with me today?

[A]

I do, I do. I see. That must be a dean hat, because I know what a. I know what a CEO is. I know what a CFO is. I know what a COO is. That says CPO and I don't know what that is.

[B]

That means Product Officer.

[A]

What could the name be for?

[B]

I'm the Chief Podcast Officer.

[A]

Chief Podcast. Is that what it says in the spot?

[B]

That's what it says, yes.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Chief Podcast Officer. And you know what what inspired this hat?

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Is because you what I do put a whammy on stand on Business Mondays and I came for payback. So now every time I have a

[A]

little flash in what I wear, if I have a little something, you feel like you got to get me back.

[B]

No, it's not a flash. Because I'll tell you once again. See, I know what you're doing. All you're doing, you and Dean, y' all getting these little things. Y' all having to knowing him, y' all having some bougie croissant and a

[A]

cappuccino carbs for me. I can't do a croissant.

[B]

But, but, but you gotta. You gotta go all the way. You probably go to Orange county to get this. This damn croissant. But nevertheless. Now you come with these feelers on.

[A]

Yeah, old school.

[B]

I had those in the 80s.

[A]

But listen, I'm in jeans and a sweater right now.

[B]

Was that doing just because I got the.

[A]

I got the few eyes on bring back memories. Or you could say those are. Those are nice.

[B]

I'm so getting ready to say that. The reason why those bring back memories.

[C]

Some.

[B]

Some guys that I have a lot of respect for and a lot of love for as a kid wore those shoes. People like my uncle Lance, number one, Bernard Sawyer, Kevin McDermott wore those shoes. Who else would have had those shoes on? My guy, Steve Clark had those. Who's my neighbor. They had a big ass dog Named Ace, I used to have to climb. So Steve Clark was my barber. They had a dog so big, like a horse, back when they kept a dog outside and his mom and grandma lived there. They were great. These was my people. Like, I was like their son. And I was the only. Like, Steve would cut my hair at the drop of a diamond. He was the best barber in the neighborhood. But I was so scared of this dog, I would climb out the window versus walking through the front door, right? Cause Asa was like, it's like a lion in the house.

[A]

By the way, dogs are outdoor animals. I know people don't think that because they bred them to be this small now, but they're really.

[B]

You know, my guy Jerry Thompson had those feas. These are some special guys that I. That I. That I grew up.

[A]

It was for Uncle Lance.

[B]

Uncle Lance? Yes, Uncle Lance. Special guy. Yeah, that. That was. That was. And he had. By the way, they had him in red, which I didn't. I didn't totally love color.

[A]

I got it.

[B]

I know. You got the red and the white and the blue. It's fine. Max, listen. It's okay. I'm a New Balance guy. You see these?

[A]

Yeah, I do. Well, you have your own deal. You're a signature athlete.

[B]

They don't make these.

[A]

Signature podcaster.

[B]

I am a signature podcaster.

[A]

Signature Signature New Balance podcaster.

[B]

And now, so what this hat does is it brings order to the show. All right, so from here on out, when you want to break a rule, right, you get, fine. There'll be a pink slip.

[A]

It's a kangaroo card in your locker. Listen, you know, I think the league is better. I mean, we could start the show in a sec, but I think the league is better. I don't know if this makes it into the show when the. When the coaches of the Celtics and the Lakers are both in the Coach of the Year conversation. JJ Redick and Joe Missoula are both in the Coach of the Year.

[B]

Those are two of the most historic teams in our league.

[A]

Yeah, the most storied teams, for sure.

[B]

But did you see what Missoula said about the. The Coaching of the Year Award? BS don't ever mention that to me again. What?

[A]

The whole award.

[B]

It's stupid.

[A]

The Coach of the Year award.

[B]

This is his words, not mine.

[A]

I mean, I hate it because he's a Celtics coach, but you got to love Missoula.

[B]

I love Missoula.

[A]

And by the way, he wins no matter who's healthy, no matter who's hurt.

[B]

I was at the game Elite Eight game. Obviously. I was recruiting Eric Bledsoe at the time I was there. Drove from Cleveland to Syracuse. When they played, they lost to that team, West Virginia team Missoula. And by the way, it was snowstorm good thousand miles. But my girl Crumbs, who is Eric Blesso's mom. My girl, we was rolling, right? She was driving. I was driving because she. She stopped in Cleveland pretty good.

[A]

When you're going to recruit a kid and the mom is driving Crumbs.

[B]

My girl, forget about it. But she drove from Alabama to Cleveland first. Then we hit the road again, rolling. She got the grandkids in the backseat. These are times you just don't. You just.

[A]

I don't want to be rich. Shouldn't they have had enough money to.

[B]

No, no. There was no nil back then.

[A]

I know, but you know what I mean.

[B]

No, absolutely not. They should not have had enough money.

[A]

And I knew the going rate back then. If you're going to be right here, that's 180 grand if it's here.

[B]

But remember, Blair came in. He wasn't. He.

[A]

He.

[B]

He was the last one to join that Kentucky team after they already.

[A]

And he was undersized and all that.

[B]

Undersized to.

[A]

He could defend one of the best undersized defenders.

[B]

So athletic. Had had a plus 5 or plus 6 wingspans. Arms longest La Cienega. So. But no, it was. Listen. But no, those are dope. Those are. Those are really.

[A]

Thank you very much.

[B]

I give props when props was duemax.

[A]

Listen, we got.

[B]

But wait a minute. I also. I want to give you props on this. What's up? You were right. You were right. I thought about this. I watched a certain documentary last night and you are absolutely right about. Michael Jordan's the best basketball player to ever play the game. You were absolutely right about that. You were. And I'm saying it. You were. You were. Seriously, you were.

[A]

There's gotta be a flip side to this.

[B]

There's no flip side. You said it.

[A]

Something. I'm being set up for something here.

[B]

No. Are you not going to take your props?

[A]

I'll take my props. All right, now, what's the. What's the next April Fool's Max? April Fools, right?

[B]

Are you crazy? By the way, this LeBron James.

[A]

How do I not see that on

[B]

April 1st is April fools the best basketball players. Listen, at this point. At this point, Max is really big.

[A]

Not only is it Jordan, but it's not even a real close debate. Like, I'll say this, if it's not A close debate.

[B]

Then why is the whole world talking about it?

[A]

Because this is what the kids in this generation have seen.

[B]

This generation.

[A]

Right. This generation.

[B]

But this generation. Kids only care about anything but Birkenstocks and LeBron James.

[A]

That's why these kids think.

[B]

Stephen, I.

[A]

These kids will argue. Steph Curry's the best player ever.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Well, you listen.

[A]

I listen. No, you can't.

[B]

I listen to the kids. They're our future.

[A]

We're in trouble. All right, listen. We have a jam packed show. First of all, Lakers.

[B]

Max.

[A]

No, before we even get to that, Lakers. Tiger Woods.

[B]

I'm Tiger Woods.

[A]

Dan Hurley with the headbutt we got. I want to talk about a clutch client today. Jalen Hurts.

[B]

I want to talk about pay for that.

[A]

I mean, we're packed today. We got to get to it. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because I got to go to work.

[A]

Yeah. All right. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[B]

Gameoverpotify.com.

[A]

yeah, email us. And we're going to get to at least one email today.

[B]

Well, if it's not a paragraph, we can get to more than one.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Game over is brought to you by fanduel. The NBA post season is here and fanduel knows the. The only thing better than watching your favorite team is winning along with them. Let's be honest, FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER call 888-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut.

[B]

Okay, Max. Good. Wednesday. What we got?

[A]

Little Lakers dominate the Cavs.

[B]

I was serious about that April Fools.

[A]

Come on. I knew it was something. I just. By the way, you know, but think of how. How stupid I am. I'm there going. What could it be that he's setting me up for? And it's April 1st.

[B]

You're so old, you don't even play April Fools.

[A]

No, it's true.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Or. Or even when I was young, who plays April Fools? But anyway, the point is, since I criticized Luka, I'm the whole reason for.

[B]

Here you go. Taking credit for criticized Luka.

[A]

The gates open. And then he got serious. He Stopped complaining on every. No, Luka's in. Luka offensively has been incredible. But more than that, and this is why I think JJ Redick is in the coach of the year conversation. He is. They've never been like, below 500. You know, they've been up and down. They've had. They've clearly had chemistry issues in the past. They have had. They're trying to figure out their roles. You have stretches where it's just one of the three best players that they have on the floor, sometimes two of them. So the. Really three of them haven't played together. You have deandre Ayton saying, who's supposed to be their fourth best player? Saying, they're trying to turn me in. They want me to be Clint Capella. As though that's a bad thing. All these things were fraying. All the loose edges were fraying in a way that made it like this is kind of. This is heading toward a disaster of a season. Not only has it not been a disaster of the season of a season, but they're like the chemistry team now.

[B]

Like, a lot of that.

[A]

I know luka deserves credit. LeBron deserves credit. J.J. redick is the coach. Right. Like, he deserves a ton of credit for this. Rich. They've been. It's been unbelievable.

[B]

Yeah, I think, look, you don't deserve any credit. That's who don't deserve credit.

[A]

Clear. We can leave me out of this. Clearly, I deserve the most credit.

[B]

I think that part of a coaching job is to go through those rollercoaster rides. Right. And J.J. i think his experience as a. As a player, one, I think his experience of playing for several coaches, you know, obviously the most touted is Mike Krzyzewski. But when he left there, he played. Doc coached him. Stan Van Gundy coached him. So he's had some great examples of coaches and. And you could take bits and pieces from other places. He's been in multiple locker rooms of players to have some sense of understanding of, you know, how to. How to massage situations. When you coach a team like the Lakers or the Celtics or the Knicks for coaching in itself is hard. You can coach the little Giants. It's a very hard job. But when you coach teams that sit on those platforms, and as much as we talk about the lakers are now 12:1 and you know, the offensive trailblazing that Luka has done, and obviously LeBron Austin and I think Luka broke Kobe's

[A]

record for points in a month by a Lakers.

[B]

Yeah, I saw that.

[A]

And he was suspended for a game because of this tech.

[B]

Yeah, no, he's been on a tear, but I thought Mark is smart, and what he's added to the team has really been great. And. And winning does help all these things. Right. It's. It's hard for you to be upset, or it's hard for you to be selfishly, you know, prioritizing things when the team is winning.

[A]

But that's what I mean. There was a moment where it looked like it was all going sideways.

[B]

Well, that's. But that's part of.

[A]

Publicly got in Luca's face right from that moment on. Lucas, the complaints on all the offensive possessions went down and he started getting back on defense. I think teammates, whether it's conscious or not, they noticed that. Now, LeBron, who had to take time to study, how am I going to fit into all this? What's my role going to be? And didn't have a lot of reps doing it because they were all hurt at different times. Now they're playing together. It's second half of the season. LeBron frequently will take the first several weeks, at least of a season, four, six, eight weeks, to figure out how is this team going to work and then implement it. Right? All those things. Deandre Ayton, after making the first comments he makes, comes back and says, look, I have to face it that I'm not the man on this team. I gotta do. I gotta make the hustle plays. Like, if you don't have the right captain steering that ship, that can all go sideways.

[B]

Yeah, but, Max, I think when you're on a team and you have big names, what happens? People come out and begin the season, you make these assumptions or you make these predictions. We all. Everybody predicts. And now being on shows, you have to predict. That's one thing. Then what drives traffic? You and I sitting up here, or we watch these shows, sitting up there talking about how great somebody is doesn't drive traffic. So now you have all of this negative perception out there. The reality is this, you have to get your steps together when you're on a team. You gotta find chemistry, you gotta find rhythm. I'm pretty sure you at your bar mitzvah, you tried to have a dance with a girl. She was a better dancer than you, she had better rhythm than you. And you sitting there like Forrest Gump, trying to get your steps together.

[A]

What'd you see the video?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I got it from your. Just in case. I got stuff loaded just in case you piss me off. I'll be able to show it to the rest of the world. By the time you got your steps together, your bar mitzvah was over and you like, damn, you had to dance better at someone else's. And it's the same thing in life, too. I think people put too much pressure on themselves to do everything tomorrow. Get your steps to.

[A]

It takes time. But the point is, what's remarkable about the Lakers in this season is it doesn't have to end up like this. It takes time, but a lot of times it can and will go well.

[B]

The unfortunate thing is you have all this success, you have all this, this, this, these bright spots, and then a new season starts in six games, playoffs. And when you're a team like the Lakers, people forget about the regular season, but they're not judging you on the basis.

[A]

That's the point. However far the Lakers go, they might not be athletic enough to deal with this team or young enough to deal with that team or deep enough to deal with this team. They may play in a way that doesn't lead itself ultimately to championship basketball, whatever that is. That may hamper them. But what won't hamper them, it looks like right now, is chemistry, is people not buying in, is people not playing together or not knowing their roles. They seem to have figured that out. And that's a great credit, not just to Luka and LeBron and to all. I mean, Austin Reaves, as I always say, he always plays the right way, he's never a problem. But to the head coach, I got to give it up. Just like with the Celtics. Missoula, like, kept that whole thing together with spit and bubble.

[B]

J.J. redick. J.J. redick has been and will be a building block for the culture of the Lakers going forward. He's a building block 100%.

[A]

I wanted to talk about Tiger Woods State. You know, what happens when. So Tiger woods gets a DUI and prescription pills are found on him.

[B]

And is this your five minute max?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'll let you know in his five minute minute.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you know, what winds up happening in these situations when it's a celebrity is usually they release a statement talking about how they wanna seek help, they acknowledge that they need to seek help, et cetera, et cetera. And that kind of damage controls because it casts them as a victim of substance addiction as opposed to the perpetrator of a crime. Right. Because if you are involved in a traffic accident and you're under the influence, that's very serious. You know, people, innocent people on the road with their families and stuff can be. They can have their lives permanently altered or even ended by that behavior. So it is criminal behavior. And when and when celebrities release that kind of statement, I think a lot of the times it rubs people the wrong way in a way because they know this is some, you know, publicist or PR firm doing damage control. But I gotta see this in Tiger woods case. I'm not excusing any kind of driving under the influence. Isn't it pretty apparent what's going on? The guy was one of the two greatest golfers who ever lived with Jack Nicklaus. And in the middle of what should have been his prime, or at least his very competitive playing days, he had debilitating injuries, including back injury. I've been through that with the back. You can't even walk. You can't pick up your kids. You're crawling around on the ground sometimes

[B]

to get damn sure came from the

[A]

golf club from room to room. You can't put any torque or anything. I get that. But even if you're just a civilian, so to speak, right, you're walking around in life with a normal job. If you're given prescription pain medication, it is not difficult to get addicted to it, especially if you have the means to acquire it. Especially if your job requires that you have control of your physical abilities. Right. Like you can do it as pain free as possible. I get it. I don't think this one, at least from where I'm sitting, Rich, seems that complicated. He was seriously physically debilitated. His career requires that he play through it. He gets magic pills that help him play through it, he gets addicted to the pills. Pretty straightforward to me.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's been the case in society and itself. Did you see that documentary called Dope?

[A]

No.

[B]

You should watch it. It talks all about this and obviously these are just regular people. But what it talks about is you could be treated for the. A toothache and then you would get this opioid and then eventually what happens is you would get hooked on them. But in this case, I was looking forward to seeing Tiger play at the Masters. I know he was trying to gear up to get there. It's unfortunate. I'm glad that nobody's gotten hurt or anything.

[A]

That's the main thing.

[B]

That's the main thing. And obviously it's always tough from a perception perspective because it's black when you Tiger woods, everything's gonna be blasted out in media. But I do appreciate your take on it in terms of. I don't think he would be taken if he didn't need it.

[A]

You Know, you know, the other thing is what you just. I've had people in my life very close to me. I think most people have. Who've had a substance problem of one sort or another. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was one incident I can think of. I don't want to go into details, but where. If something bad would have happened because I found out after the fact, I had to talk to them afterwards and say, listen, it's okay because nothing happened and you need to get help. Right. If something bad would have happened, we'd be having a very different conversation.

[B]

Right.

[A]

What you said is important. Thank God nothing seriously bad happened because it could have, but. But thankfully it didn't. And so, you know, hopefully he can. He can deal with the addiction and.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's easy to jump down on people when things are going bad, but we should practice more of doing the opposite. Like just band together and try to help. Help.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there is a legal consequence, by the way.

[B]

Break the law is this. But.

[A]

But that's the thing about dui, that on the one hand, I have no sympathy because it's like I'm on the road with my kids and you're drunk or something like that or under the influence. You're putting my. You do whatever you want with your own life. You're putting my kids lives in jeopardy. That's. I have zero sympathy. On the other hand, here's the problem. What does, like alcohol and some other drugs do? It affects your judgment. So what you're asked to do right at the moment that your judgment is impaired is exercise good judgment. It's a difficult situation. It's easy to say, don't ever do that. And on the other hand, in the moment that the person does it, their judgment's all messed up.

[B]

Well, what shouldn't affect your judgment is you got a gazillion dollars. You got to get a driver.

[A]

Got to get a driver.

[B]

Most people have to drive themselves around places. Right. They can't afford Tiger Woods.

[A]

Got to get a driver. And not. Not the kind that you use on the course. That.

[B]

Exactly. Not a Titleist or Callaway.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You need like a guy in a black hat and a tie.

[A]

Maybe he named Titleist, but he's got to drive you.

[B]

Yeah. Pay him a million dollars.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Who cares? Because he's saving your life. He's saving other people's lives.

[A]

Tiger's watching this, going, rich. Let me negotiate my own driver salary. Million dollars.

[B]

It's worth it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's a. What's a what's a million dollars to a billionaire.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Especially, I'll say it this way, could

[A]

cost you your life.

[B]

What's the opportunity cost of you not paying a million dollars to somebody who is obviously needed.

[A]

Yeah. Because that, that driver maybe needs to be a bodyguard also and also needs to have judgment to tell him maybe like give me those keys sometimes. And yeah.

[B]

Yes, all of that. I think it's important. So. Yeah.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. MVPs always make the game more exciting. You just get such a thrill watching players like Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor, that's my favorite of all time, dominate the field. And no matter how much time passes, it's fun to look back on everything they did and accomplished. There's a reason we continue to remember their names among the hundreds and thousands of other football players. You probably want your own Jerry Rice or Jim Brown for your team too, right? The trick is to find them. It can take days, months to sort through all the resumes and find that perfect fit for your business. Unless you use ZipRecruiter. It's like your own private scouting department. You can even try it [e-mail] GameOver along with its smart matching tech, ZipRecruiter has a new feature to help connect you immediately with qualified candidates who are interested in your role. And they can tell you in their own words about why they're interested, which can tell you a lot more about them as a person. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Protein is now at Starbucks and it's never tasted so good. You can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes. Lattes or matcha. Try it today at Starbucks. All right. I will do a five minute max.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And this is on a clutch client, actually. But we keep. I would say keep it a buck, kids.

[B]

No, you got to keep it a million bucks. If you want to talk about a

[A]

clutch client, you got it.

[B]

It costs you for this.

[A]

You gotta keep like keep or keep it 100. Keep it 90 because. And I'll tell you why, you got to give yourself a little wiggle room. So I'm going to Talk about Hertz, I'm going to keep it at least 90.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Okay. I know he's a clutch client, but I got to be honest about it.

[B]

Be careful.

[A]

So there's, you know, ESPN has an article about Hertz and the Eagles tension over play calling and offensive philosophy. And yes, the Eagles suffered from a bad OC last year and it didn't work and all that. This is how I see this situation. And this is coming from a person, Rich, who I was on ESPN for, you know, at first singing Carson Wentz's praises right when he was doing really well. Then at a certain point, everyone was thinking he was playing well, but he was not playing well. And I said that for a long time. And when they drafted Jalen Hurts and people were like, well, it's back up and blah, blah, blah, it was pretty obvious they want to replace Carson Wentz. Everyone told me I was nuts, but that's exactly what happened. So I have some experience at least observing the Philadelphia Eagles and talking about their quarterbacks and being right about it. And let me say. And it doesn't come from nowhere do I hear things. Yes, of course. Jalen Hurts. From where I'm sitting, Rich, there is a reason he was yanked from the championship game. He was drafted in the second round, all those kind of things. When I was saying, hey, he's going to replace Carson west, people didn't believe me. In other words, if. If it was not like he was a sure thing the whole time, but he's by all accounts a hard worker and extremely focused and motivated and all those things. And he worked himself to the position where he was not only the quarterback of a winning team, but a team that made it all the way to the Super Bowl. And in that super bowl, he arguably was the best player on the field on either team. Arguably outplayed Mahomes. I don't know that he did, but you could make that argument. He was right there, that game.

[B]

He did the first. The first one, obviously the second one, but yeah, the first one, yes.

[A]

Then he makes it all the way back to the Super Bowl. And the reason. Part of the reason they make the super bowl is when he is needed the most, he plays his best. Not just in key games, but on key plays in key games. And it's not a small sample size over time. It's a big sample size. He's clutch, so to speak. You can spell it with a K. Yeah, he is very clutch player. And to me, he. Even people who would criticize him. Well, he doesn't See the middle of the field or he can't read zone, or all he has is a deep ball and he's accurate, but he can't do the, you know, all those things. It's like, yeah, whatever, I'm an Eli Manning fan. As a Giants fan, if you're telling me that you're durable, you show up, you're competent, and then in the biggest moments, you're an all time great, everyone can shut up. That's the dude, right? He gets all the way back to the super bowl and this time wins. And not only do they win, they beat the brakes off of Mahomes and the Chiefs and he this time outplays Mahomes, certainly, right? I understand why Jalen hurts at that moment, thinks, look, I'm the man now. I've done it. I've gotten to two Super Bowls. I've outplayed the best quarterback anyone's ever seen twice in his mind, right? I won one. The whole thing. Now I'm gonna start to assert myself and I'd like my teammates also to do it the way that I do it. Obviously, it leads to success. I'm a second round pick. A lot of these guys, because the Eagles are loaded, are first round picks, right? But I've worked myself, I've earned this thing. And here's the problem. On a loaded team, there are several things that need to happen. If you're not, you know, Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes or John Elway or Tom Brady or someone who, it's like, who's either done it a million times, like Tom Brady or Joe Montana, who. Or has otherworldly talent like Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen or John Elway. If you're a guy who's worked his way there, your teammates have to like you, and the ballers on the team have to look at you and think, he's one of us. He's like that. He's, he's, he's the same kind of animal, a baller, right? That leaves you very little margin for error. Even if your OC isn't great now, when you don't play as well, the ballers on the team are looking at you a little sideways, or if you're not really well liked by your teammates, it could start to be a problem. Especially if it seems like you don't want to run anymore or there's an issue with you, even if the pocket is clean or you need a clean pocket in order to do things, whatever that is that people are noticing, if you are not well Liked or. Or if the ballers on the team think there's something off, you cannot assert yourself the same way. You can't insist that other people do things the way you do them or the way you want them to be done. Even if the way you do them is the right way in your mind for good reason. Look where you came from to where you are, right? It works. People aren't outworking you, stuff like that, but if they don't believe that you're like that, it's really difficult to pull that off. And I'm not saying that the Eagles don't have a way forward because obviously the guy's been to two Super Bowls. He could have won two Super Bowl MVPs, right? Like could have. So in a certain way he is like that. But there is an obvious issue in Philadelphia and I think people look at the quarterback and I know he's a client, but I don't think that happens by accident. That's my five minute max.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I don't know. I do. I will say this. I would say that just the quarterback position itself, like you mentioned Tom Brady. Tom Brady had Bill Belichick and he grew to become that guy, right? He was a six round pick. So it's not like he was in that locker room as the guy also getting to there to the Patriots. You have Bill Belichick, you have older guys around you, you have professional guys around you.

[A]

And Brady didn't have to carry the team over the first half. Didn't have to. He grew into that after eight, 10 years.

[B]

So by then he became the guy

[A]

who could carry the.

[B]

By then, I just think playing that quarterback position for anybody is tough. What I will say is Jalen hurts in my opinion. And I don't have my Mr. Bias hat on. I'm not being Mr. Biased, but I just think that he is the standard. As it pertains to. You talked about an athlete having the, the willingness and the want and the perseverance and the capabilities to overcome. Obviously what people would say would be detriment or setbacks and things like that. Then to get in position also it's a big difference between being in a collegiate locker room or high school locker room to a professional locker room. And as a quarterback, you're the one guy on the team, you're like grandma getting ready for the family reunion. You're responsible for everything. People sending their dudes money in, this person coming, making sure this is the right hotel, we cooking this food, et cetera.

[A]

This receiver didn't get the ball thrown to him enough. You gotta massage his ego.

[B]

I may throw it to you, Max, but. And you score. But this person's upset because maybe one more catch equaled another $500,000 bonus.

[A]

You gotta know the bonus structure of your receiver's contract.

[B]

It's just so much on the quarterback that I think every Sunday we're just looking at one thing. And in this case also, you know, everybody wants you to be who they think you should be versus allowing you just to be you. And you know that that could, that could be perceived a certain way. So I don't, you know, I, I don't read too much into it. What I do know is that the Eagles have had a lot of success with Jalen Hurts as, as quarterback. And I've seen guys get paid. I've seen them go to multiple Super Bowls. I've seen them win a Super Bowl. And you know, I root for the Eagles because if, if the Eagles don't win, Michael price loses like 75 pounds Sunday. Yeah, it's ridiculous. You can't, you can't. So. But you know, look, these people have to do their job and write these articles and look, nothing's perfect. And I think everyone, every day is under construction, so it's fine.

[A]

I would say you brought up a couple of things there, that or one point in particular. Tom Brady, it was like a self fulfilling prophecy almost. He gave everyone this good sense that he's a winner, guys. Like I bring up Derek Jeter because it reminded me right away it's not just that he was a good player, it's that he gave you a sense you could trust him in a big moment, right? That he wouldn't. Even if he didn't elevate under pressure, he was going to stay the same steady guy, right? And, and that you could win a lot with that guy. But early in his career, Tom Brady was the quarterback who game managed, made the big throw when he had to relied on his defense. I'm not trying to underplay how excellent he was. Also excellent. But he wasn't like Peyton Manning in the regular season. He wasn't putting up numbers that made you go, oh my God, right? Just like Jeter wasn't a rod in the regular season. Really good numbers, but not like, oh my God. And then something happened with Brady about halfway through his career where he really did become that guy. They got him Randy Moss, they got him these incredible receive, this incredible offensive team and he put up Peyton Manning numbers.

[B]

But I guarantee you, even in that locker room with Those receivers, somebody was unhappy at some point, and he knew

[A]

how to handle it.

[B]

Games in a row.

[A]

He was well liked, it seemed, and he. But Brady, over time, took the step to the next level, but it took a lot of time. Then I think about Russell Wilson, who was put, obviously, in retrospect, in the right situation. He could throw a great deep ball, he could run, he could do certain things really well. But he was put in the right situation, and that was borne out because when they let him go, look at what happened with him. They bring other guys into Seattle and it looked similar to how it looked with Russell Wilson. A lot of that was the coaching staff and the stuff around him. Not to discredit Wilson, but at a certain point, there was resentment on the team because Russell Wilson, it seemed, wanted to take that next step and assert himself a certain way. And as soon as that leaves little margin for error, like Tom Brady, it was a decade in that he really was like. Then he started putting up those Peyton Manning numbers. As soon as Russell Wilson kind of asserted himself, and it seemed, at least from where I was sitting, to want things to revolve around him, it went sideways. You have to. You have to have a sense of who you are. Even when you win Super Bowls or a Super bowl and you play really well. You have to, you know, you have to have a feel for other people, for the people around you. You know, how much you can push, how much you can assert yourself without it falling apart. And. And that's something that Hertz is going to have to figure out.

[B]

But see, Max, I think that the black quarterback deals with things well.

[A]

There's a different racial component, too.

[B]

Yeah. I'm saying a different challenge from their own. Because if I want to act as a professional, because this is what is happening, if I'm a family man, if I'm not, if I'm not diving so much into the material things, or if I'm not, then I'm. I'm being judged a certain way, possibly. And that could bring forth a disdain or a dislike in some capacity.

[A]

You're saying. So authenticity is important.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People have to feel like you are who you are and what that bumps up against. You're saying for the black quarterback, at times, it's as though that white people have a monopoly on being responsible, doing this and behaving a certain way. So that if you're black in a leadership position and exhibit qualities that are. That. Are. That. That some would say white people in that position have a monopoly on, then you're not Being authentic.

[B]

Yeah. It's almost like they, you know, you want to. They want you to have street cred when you're not a street guy. And that's okay. It's okay for you to be you, in my opinion. I'm saying. I'm just saying it's. It's. Sometimes. It could. Sometimes, if you're not one of the guys or people don't feel like you wanted the guys, it could come with a little distance, and you may just not be that person. And, you know, I see it in the NBA all the time, where everybody's different. You know, I may not want to go to this show or this place or a fashion show or whatever. I may want to put puzzles together. And I get.

[A]

There's an extra layer of complexity coming from.

[B]

And it's less about, like, the racial component of black and white, and it's more about just. You got two different life experiences, and sometimes, you know.

[A]

You know, I think you can be your authentic self, even if your authentic self doesn't fit into a stereotype or even the kind of dominant culture of other people who look like you in a locker room. Right.

[B]

But you do have to have a balancing act.

[A]

Yeah, but the issue in Russell Wilson's case, I remember him sending out a tweet when the Queen of England died.

[B]

And see, I don't. I didn't see that.

[A]

I remember seeing that going. I understand why that would. You know, like, if Lennox Lewis does that, who's a British citizen, right. Then you're like, okay, I get it. He probably met the Queen. He knows her a little bit. He's from England. He gets it. But when you see an American athlete tweet about being sad about the. It's like, it's not. Nothing wrong with it. But, like, why did you have to comment on that? You know, why are we. I'm just saying it feels to people, like, whether or not it's authentic. It feels.

[B]

But in America, we do more judging than anything. Yeah, we do more judging than fact checking than. Than. Than getting the actual information. You. You judge first. So it's like. So now that make you not like Russell Wilson. I've never been around Russell Wilson. He hasn't been a great guy.

[A]

Yeah, great guy. Every time I've ever. I agree. I agree.

[B]

Ever. And I've been around him a lot.

[A]

Rich one time. Some people give you the sense that they are comfortable in their own skin. And I don't mean racially. I mean just who they are. And other people give you the sense that they're not part of it sometimes is like I would sometimes listen to a Rod or Cam Newton when they were playing, and it seemed to me that they would say something and they. Before they said it. And by the way, with Cam, you see his big personality, especially now that he's. He doesn't have to worry about being the quarterback or the face of a franchise. Right. But it feels like they were running it through a metric in their mind where it's like, this is what I really think. This is how that'll be received. This is what I am in a position to say and still be a leader on the team. And it came out a certain way. Whereas guys, like I mentioned Jeter before, everything he said like. Or, you know, it seemed like this is what the guy really believes. And it's always the right answer.

[B]

But again, everyone's journey is different. We don't know the journey that these guys are taking and we don't know how they're being molded. Some guys may actually think, I have to do this exactly like this, like this, like this. If not, I'm going to be judged a certain way.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

Right. And then other guys, it's just, it's just naturally authentic.

[A]

Right. When someone has actually drunk the Kool Aid, when they answer a question, they don't need to run it through any kind of special. Like what?

[B]

You know, we just had this conversation about the quarterback, Indiana. They were, they was kind of, kind of giving him flack about his, his post game interviews. Yeah, we had this conversation. But to end this, would you agree that all people. There's a 10% act in everybody.

[A]

I started this by saying, I'll keep it 90. Don't keep it a buck, keep it 90. Yeah.

[B]

Cause you're backed by it. 10% by saying there's a 10% act in everybody. And you know what?

[A]

No, no, no. Not in everybody. 10% act is okay. I'm saying when that act, when people start feeling like that might be 20 or 30%, then it's trouble.

[B]

I agree with you on that. But it's okay. 10% is okay.

[A]

10%. Yeah, sure, of course, of course. Like, you can't have. You cannot. If you were able to read someone's mind, anyone's mind, the innermost thoughts, their worst thoughts and everything, you'd be disgusted with humanity. I mean, that's, that's, that's human nature, you know, of course you can't be 100% authentically who you are in public. All the time. Right. That's what intimacy is with your.

[B]

It's even tougher for personal relations. It's even tougher for. I've been in a lot of locker rooms. I've been around a lot of locker rooms. It's tough. It's tough being an athlete. And you see. I mean, we're seeing it now with a lot of kids coming out and having different experiences. It's very tough being an athlete.

[A]

It is Dan Hurley, headbutt gate or head bump gate, whatever you want to call it. So at the end.

[B]

Yeah, I love Daniel at the end

[A]

of UConn and Duke and UConn's about they've won the game. The ref goes to Dan Hurley says, actually there's still a little bit of time on the clock. And Dan kind of headbutts him. Now, watching the video, to me it's very clear it was not done with hostility or anything like that. It's. But I gotta tell you, Rich, he could have been teed up on that call on that play. He could have been teed up.

[B]

From the looks of it, he could have been.

[A]

He could have been.

[B]

And we don't know the relationship throughout the course of the game.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we don't know the relationship off the court. Maybe they know each other or whatnot. It looks like he had an out of body experience. He was just like. Because he was so. He.

[A]

I admire, by the way, if they tee him up, they could lose the game. That could cost him the game.

[B]

Which would have been a damper. Yeah, that would have really been March Madness.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

That would have really.

[A]

I don't know about a damper or would have been like, made it even more awesome the whole game because who

[B]

knows well what it would have been. It would have been. Been an ambulance outside that arena because somebody would have passed out because that's too. You can't take too much that high, then that low, then back up that high. And I think that's what happened because as a coach, you're looking at this and you're saying, damn, we lost. And you know, he's had success, but he's so competitive, you still want to win. And it's like, damn. And then something like that happens. He had an out of body experience.

[A]

I think that's right. And I think Dan Hurley, who's won back to back national titles, could win three. Hasn't happened since Wooden. Right. Like, part of what makes him great, obviously he's in the middle of greatness, is that he's gotta screw A little bit loose. He's not like everyone else. Right.

[B]

He's perfect for college.

[A]

And it reminds me of someone you know pretty well who's in the NBA. Draymond Green. Draymond is not like everyone else, and that's part of what makes him great. Yeah. Draymond has a little bit of a screw loose, and that's part of what makes him great. Guys like Dan Hurley and Draymond Green have to kind of ride the crest of the wave of that little thing that they have that's different than other people in order to be great. Right. In order to get the most out of themselves.

[B]

Draymond, I think you need to come on the show because Max thinks you have screws.

[A]

Little screw loose. Yeah.

[B]

And we have a toolbox here. You can tighten up these screws.

[A]

But guys like that. That's why Rich. Like, this is what I would say about Dan Hurley. He's gotta be care like, okay. Do I tell him he's gotta be careful or not? So my daughter Mira brought home, like, a 95 out of 100 when she was in the. Maybe the third.

[B]

I've been here.

[A]

Mira maybe in the third grade. And she was so upset, she tore up the test. And I hadn't been there before. I didn't know what to tell her. Cause on the one hand. So I told her that. I said, I don't know what to tell you. On the one hand, you got an A, and you should not feel bad about that. And you shouldn't beat yourself up about that. I don't like that. On the other hand, you are demanding, like, a certain standard for yourself, and I don't want to tell you not to do that either.

[B]

I agree. I know one more thing you should have told her. You're a lot smarter than I ever thought I was. I never got to 95.

[A]

So. So. But. So she was so like. So that's the thing about guys like Dan Hurley and Draymond Green. So I'm saying this with that thought in mind. Okay.

[B]

But that's what makes them great.

[A]

That's what makes them great. And yet you have to be careful. Draymond Green and the warriors are up 3 to 1. Draymond has X number of techs. Whatever the rule was at the time was, it's still 60. I don't remember. But. And the next tech. Right, the next tech, he's suspended for a game. Now, LeBron James knows this, and LeBron James.

[B]

You think that.

[A]

I don't think that. No.

[B]

No chance.

[A]

LeBron baited him into that foul.

[B]

Let me tell you something.

[A]

Draymond took the bait. I'm giving LeBron credit. People are like, oh, the league gave LeBron a gift. No, no, stop. Yeah, you guys like Dray the trick. And by the way, then Draymond almost won mvp. Had the warriors won, Draymond would have been mvp.

[B]

He would have won mvp.

[A]

Yeah. Would have won MVP in the series. Yeah, but that's what I mean. Guys like Dan Hurley or Draymond Green, on the one hand, don't be careful because you want to ride that thing to be great. On the other hand, you have to know when you're someone who walks up to that line, don't let people push you over it. Dan Hurley could have been that team, could have lost behind that game. Just like the warriors probably lose because Draymond gets suspended a game.

[B]

So does. Are you saying that. So why did Dan Hurley get the benefit of the doubt in that moment?

[A]

Well, listen, here's something that I've seen pop up, which it's unknowable, but actually, I should ask your opinion. If Dan Hurley were a black coach, Tech. He gets a Tech.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay. If I'm the ref, Dan Hurley doesn't get a Tech, and if he were black, he doesn't get a Tech. If I'm the ref, I'm not teeing up someone in that position. However, I am looking from where I'm sitting, if it's a black coach or a white coach, I go, what are you putting your hand touching the ref for in that situation?

[B]

Well, here's why I say that, because

[A]

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I think that's unknowable. Why do you say. I mean, why do you say duh, like hundreds of years of American history,

[B]

But my knee jerk reaction is tech. But I do agree with you in terms of it's unknowable only based upon the entirety of the game. And on top, the one thing that makes it probably not a Tech is they were up. So now as the ref, you're saying, well, he wouldn't do this if they were down. Different story. So I would say that. So that's what I would say.

[A]

Bring him some news that wasn't great. The ref said, hey, there's still time on the clock.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, something good just happened.

[B]

But, you know, but I'm just saying in that moment, the reason why I didn't go overboard about it is because they were up and showed. What that said was he's excited about the moment. And he's like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. And the one thing that he did was just like, he couldn't do anything else. He's just like, ah. You know, it's like, I would think he would want to say, let's. Let's go. You know, something like that. And that would probably happen if the coach was black as well. If they were up. No.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If they were down, both of those coaches.

[A]

Would a black coach feel comfortable enough putting his head on a white.

[B]

That's nothing. That's a whole nother thing. I just don't know if it's comparability. No, but it's just. May not even be in your nature. That's probably not what's. I think. I think a black coach would have probably. You know that Key and Peele skit.

[A]

I was just thinking Key and Peele. Yeah.

[B]

I think a black. That's what Dan Hurley would do. A black coach would have probably did something totally different. He probably would have hugged him or he probably would have gave him a.

[A]

I mean, you could imagine a key appeal skit where, like, the white coach is, like, dropping WWE elbows on the ref and not getting picked up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And getting teed up again. Yeah.

[B]

Something like that. He probably would have done something like that. So I. I was too quick with my response. I would say it's circumstantial in terms of.

[A]

But it is like, we don't have to avoid. That is the elephant in the room with something like that. On the one hand, I understand people if they're watching or listening to this. Some people being like, oh, why does race come into. You live in America. I mean, it's unavoidable.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm the same way sometimes, Max. We can't. Can't make everything racial. Although I won't.

[A]

Did the thought cross your mind, yes or no?

[B]

No. Me? No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It didn't cross my mind.

[A]

And I think, as I said, I think it's unknowable. I wouldn't want to see a guy get teed up, no matter what. I think that's a bad spot to tee up someone who clearly is just excited and doesn't mean any harm.

[B]

But that's because I wasn't looking for a reason to hate on it, though.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I was. It was just. It was a bad break for the.

[A]

To me, the bigger theme is Dan Hurley. I like. You want to walk up to that line, by the way. Another one like this, except he was More over the line was Dennis Rodman back in the day, right? When you are. When part of what makes you great is your brain is not wired like other people, you want to use that, but you also have to be careful not to mess up in the wrong situation.

[B]

But I disagree with what you said. There's no way LeBron, he bade him.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

He's a very smart guy. I mean, if very smart in the back.

[A]

As. I'm watching this. I'm watching this. I'm at the game. I'm at the game with Price. We got great seats, right?

[B]

No, there's no bait.

[A]

I'm at the game. I'm watching.

[B]

I was there.

[A]

That's what's on my mind. I'm like, no, sorry, I'm not at that game. I'm at the. I'm at game seven. But on that game. I'm watching that game on tv, right? No, game seven is what I'm thinking of. I'm watching that. I watched that game on tv, but I'm watching that thinking. I remember what I was thinking when I saw the play, which is, damn, that's smart. He's big. LeBron gave him a little extra.

[B]

And Trayvon, pay somebody. You baiting Steph Curry? That's not a bait. No, no.

[A]

But if Steph had one more tech to go.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but I'm. I'm saying, I. I just think that was a heated. Well, it's not what I think. It's what I know. That was a heat of the battle thing, and that leads me.

[A]

Max, taking credit away from LeBron. I'm giving your guy props.

[B]

I think his credit is pretty.

[A]

I always thought that was a super high smart play from LeBron.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, this leads you to what? You got to get rich.

[B]

My. Get rich quick.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. Which is believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

As it pertains to you, as you just said, you tell the people something that's totally wrong based upon, you know, what they saw. Which is. Which is.

[A]

Which is trying to help out a clutch client.

[B]

Apparently not True. But you're trying to help out a clutch client.

[A]

No, you don't do anything.

[B]

You just. You antagonize all the clients.

[A]

Not antagonizing anyone. I'm giving LeBron credit for a super high IQ move.

[B]

No, no, it's enough. Enough. But believe half what you see now and what you hear, because again, going back to another article that came out yesterday, had my phone blowing up about. I'm like, what are all these people calling me about I don't know what's going on. You even called me and said, hey, is this, is this true? I'm like, what are you talking about? Well, next year, five teams. Can't you guys just enjoy this year, please?

[A]

Well, that was a Dave McMenamon, and

[B]

Dave McMenam is my man. He's doing a job. He has to do his job. But can't you just enjoy.

[A]

But also. Wait, who else was on that? McMenamin. And can we, who can we look up that article real quick?

[B]

It was everybody.

[A]

No, it was Bontemps. It was Tim Bontemps.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who, by the way? Tim Bontemps. When he does his straw poll talk about influential. He got Embiid an mvp. Because when the straw poll came out and Jokic was about to win MVP again, there was a big reaction, and suddenly the straw, you know, the odds flipped. So Don Bon Temps has some influence.

[B]

Yeah, but they're naming teams. You got all this speculation, you got every article, and what happens is you just have these algorithms pick up and everybody's talking.

[A]

So you're saying there's no truth to it, to those five teams?

[B]

There's no truth to any of it.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

First of all, I don't know what's happening.

[A]

Remember when you just said believe half of what you see and none of what you hear? I don't know if I believe any of that. I'm telling you, you don't know what's happening.

[B]

I do not know. He don't know either. He don't know. We don't even talk about it.

[A]

I mean, I know.

[B]

Well, if you know, then I need to be talking to you. But we don't talk about it. The conversation was exactly what we do talk about. And what he talks about more than anything is, man, just enjoy the moment. The man's playing minutes with his son. Meaningful minutes.

[A]

By the way, off tip last night, had a chased out pin to the block the first play of the game. He's 41.

[B]

And honestly, it's unfair to. Again, people have to do their job. Yeah. The Lakers are 12 1.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

They're playing well.

[A]

Yeah, LeBron's been a huge part of it. Yep.

[B]

Why are you talking about some stuff about next year? I mean, I get it. You have to talk about it. I, I, I understand that. No, I'm not saying I, I have a feel for the, this business. Trust me, I do. But it's just like, oh, my God, I don't know. Nobody knows.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I don't care what article is written.

[A]

I know exactly.

[B]

I don't care what tweet is out there. Who says they knew?

[A]

LeBron knows. You know and I know.

[B]

Nobody knows anything.

[A]

I'm gonna say Mav knows. He.

[B]

He don't know anything.

[A]

Okay, let's put it this way. One of the teams that came up.

[B]

Friends. Don't know anything.

[A]

One of the. One of the teams that came up.

[B]

Twitter fans. Don't know anything. Nobody knows nothing.

[A]

Can I say something right now? Definitively. LeBron James ain't ending his career with the Clippers. With the Clippers. Stop. We could take that off. I like the Clippers. I'm sure you do. They're very nice. Whatever. It's a cute team. LeBron James ain't ending his career with the Clippers.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

So that's. That's. That's out. And then who else was it? The Nuggets? He ain't going to Denver. And by the way, why. Whoa. The Warriors Silicon Valley step. Because it's not a championship team.

[B]

But why is there even a conversation?

[A]

I'll tell you why. It's LeBron James. He's. No one's ever played at this level at this age. He's playing at this level. Second greatest player who ever lived.

[B]

I'm changing the topic to that in there.

[A]

He didn't say anything. Yeah.

[B]

Moving on quick.

[A]

I'll give you three teams. There are three teams.

[B]

You don't give me any teams because I don't care.

[A]

There's the Lakers, who can afford to pay him the most because they have his bird rights. Right. That's the most likely team. Then the tied for second most likely or second most likely team will be the Cavs in a return to Cleveland because they have a very, very good team.

[B]

Max.

[A]

And the third most likely team would be the knicks, because if LeBron James could somehow figure out a way the Knicks won't win the championship this year, if LeBron thinks he could help them win a championship and he wins one in New York, what a way to end a career.

[B]

Max.

[A]

Those are the only three teams.

[B]

If you ever wasted time in your life, you just wasted a lot of time.

[A]

Well, it was. I, I, I think that was fun, actually, for yourself.

[B]

Says the kid who plays in his room by himself. Won't let anybody else play with the toys that he made.

[A]

What just got you saying, I'm gonna take my ball and go home.

[B]

Yeah. You just playing by yourself in the room. Like, what is that? I told you, if I'm telling you, it's a waste of time. Hard headed Max will still go in.

[A]

Sometimes you load in, punch out. You know what I mean? You got that? You don't need anybody else.

[B]

And you're wrong. We know who the best player in the world is or ever is.

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[e-mail] like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Now. I have some serious things to talk about. Some real things to talk about that matters. Okay. The other day on a show I like to watch with my guy, Lou Williams and Boogie and Chandler. Run it back, Beetle. Run it back. Yeah, run it back on the FanDuel network.

[A]

Beads.

[B]

Yeah, there were. Robert Parrish was on there. The Chief, who's not a hater by the way. I roll with the Chief.

[A]

Paris for sure. Legend.

[B]

But you know, the new talking heads in this new generation of basketball like to put guys like LeBron, Katie Kawhi ahead of Larry on the all time list. Does that bother you at all when you hear things like that?

[A]

First of all, with all due respect to those guys, they're not in the same conversation with Larry. You know, like I said, the best of the best. It's hard, hard to get a seat at that table. The only one that I think may be able to get a seat at that table other than obviously LeBron and, and Durant, but they old school. I'm talking about the new guy, maybe the big fella up there in Denver. Okay.

[B]

All right. Jokic, I like this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, he may. They may have to bring out another seat for him. Oh, yeah.

[B]

So Max, actually, now that we saw the playback I'm not sure what he said wrong there, but what do you think about that?

[A]

First of all, if he said it,

[B]

I don't think he said it.

[A]

First of all, he's wrong about LeBron. LeBron is nobody.

[B]

Nobody.

[A]

But LeBron's better than Bird. LeBron is. Sorry. LeBron is greater than Bird.

[B]

He didn't say he wasn't.

[A]

Yeah, he said he, he, at first he did. Later he said that could be get a seat at the table.

[B]

No, he said the best of the best. It's hard to get a seat at table. The only one that I think may be able to get a seat at that table, other than obviously LeBron and Durant table.

[A]

He's saying put ahead of Bird. He started out by saying you can't even. That's not even a conversation. This is the thing. LeBron, okay, LeBron in his day was greater than Bird in birds day. Barely.

[B]

You're going viral.

[A]

Hold on, barely? Like in other words, when people say it comes down to LeBron or Jordan, whatever, I have Jordan firmly won. But I do think that clearly two is LeBron. I'm not saying that to start an argument with us. I mean that there's. There's no argument like, like LeBron is. It's not like anyone else is next to Jordan, right? Like that's the closest to Jordan is LeBron and that he's ahead of Bird. But when I say barely, people sleep on Bird. Like, I love Magic. Just like you're like, oh, you're anti Steph. I'm not. But if Steph was ever the best player in the game, it was 2022. It's not his fault. But he played in the same era as LeBron James and throughout their careers, while LeBron was still in or around his prime, he every year was better than Steph. I mean, I mean, I don't mean regular season. I mean when the whole thing was done, he was clearly the best player in the game. Better than Steph. So if you're saying Steph is the greatest player. Steph was played in the same era with LeBron and LeBron was always better than him. Until LeBron got old. Because he's older than Steph. And in 2022, Steph was went crazy and went crazy in the finals and he was the best player in the world. Same thing with Magic and Bird. I'm not anti Magic. Magic at the age of 1920 as a rookie, you know, wins the championship, jumps at center without Kareem in the game, and gives him 4215 and 7. That'll never happen again. As a rookie, Magic was all world, all the time, greatest point guard ever. Berg was better than Magic. That's not by a lot, but the two played contemporary. They were contemporaries and it wasn't controversial back then. Berg was best player in the game post the decline of Kareem. And then Moses popped out for a year or two before Jordan, Larry Bird ran. And until he hurt his back, Larry Bird ran the NBA. He was Jordan before there was Jordan in terms of his position in the game and rich in terms of basketball IQ. The only guys with a basketball IQ on birds level ever were Magic and LeBron. And I understand why he brings up Jokic, because maybe Jokic.

[B]

Well, here's what I'll say and I'm researching something just so I can. I don't think you. I don't. I think when it comes to Larry Bird you get no argument from me about anything.

[A]

But you put LeBron over Bird.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, me too. But what I'm saying is at their peak, it's close. Yes, LeBron, but Bird was so great that at their peaks it's close.

[B]

But Bird also, first of all, Robert,

[A]

he's ahead of kd. Wait, Bird is ahead of KD and ahead of Kawhi. Bird can control. When Bird joined the Celtics they were a 20 something win team. The next year they were a 60 win team.

[B]

60. Robert Parish, the chief and you know I respect all of the former players and he's a champion, multi. Champion. Of course he's supposed to protect his teammate Larry Bird and on top of that he's not. It's Larry Bird, so I don't. But Larry Bird himself who never, obviously never played against LeBron but he was a GM in the front office with the Pacers against LeBron. He's always had admiration for LeBron and, and others. By the way, he's a, he's never been a hater in that regard. So no, I thought that he was

[A]

the best back then. People didn't shoot the three so much. He was a great three point shooter. Had he played today, he'd have averaged, he would have averaged eight to ten threes a game. Shot clearly over 40%. If he played today, he was a genius rebounder. By that I mean the way Rodman wasn't just like Charles Oakley's a great rebounder, but Rodman had not just athletic ability but this sense of how the guy shot it, how it was going to come off the rim where he needed to be. Bird had rebounding ability like that Bird defensively for that era when everyone was gambling on passing lanes and knowing when to double a guy. Bird was an excellent defender in that respect. He was like, he was a passer on like in terms of really controlling an offense. Him and LeBron and Jokic. Magic. Yes, but Magic couldn't shoot like those guys. And actually LeBron can't shoot like Bird or Jokic. I mean, from certain spots. Yeah, but not at. Yes, but not as pure a shooter.

[B]

I'm not Jokic. That's a stretch.

[A]

Right? Well, Jokic. No, yeah, no, right. You're right for his position. Yeah, you're right. The point is Bird has become crazy, criminally underrated. He's like, he's top 10 all time for sure. And I would say after you get by Jordan, LeBron and the bigs, Bird is like underrated.

[B]

By who? I mean, most of these lists comes out. It's not like these lists are being made by the people that Robert Parrish is saying who are at the table.

[A]

This generation will tell you KD is better than Bird. KD could join teams, but that's what they saw play. Right. But like KD could be. Is an all time great player, obviously, but Bird at his best, right there, you have a team that's going to win and if you give him players, they're going to make deep runs in the playoffs and win championships. Right. When he was healthy, KD is not that kind of player. As great as KD is, Bird was like a Bird team. Can't be bad. Not possible.

[B]

But what do you mean? He was on the Celtics with Parish, Johnson, McHale.

[A]

But what I'm saying is when they got Bird, Bird, that was a 20 something win team. The next year they won 60.

[B]

Okay, 60.

[A]

And also Parish wasn't Parish before Bird got his hands on him. Dennis Johnson was old. He was a great player, but he was older and you know.

[B]

Yeah, but that's why he's Larry Bird. He's not Larry Dog. Yeah, fine.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think it was other than saying he's better than LeBron, which he's not. He's right about I like the Chief. Hey, by the way, that's not the only guy who made it. Could you see John Stark's comments from Strong Talk on Men's Health? We have the clip. I was gonna quote him, but we have the clip. Check this out.

[C]

Yeah, I think what Michael made his teammates better because he grew them. Yeah, he grew, Scotty. He grew, you know, Horace Grant, he grew. BJ Armstrong, LeBron really didn't grow nobody. He joined talent. You know what I mean? Talent had to come to him. You know, it's like his first trip to Miami where he went down and joined Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh, you know, recruited Chris Bosh and they. They had a hell of a team. Then he came back to Cleveland because of Kyrie. That's the only reason he came back, I truly believe that, is that he came back because he knew he had a killer there. You know, Kyrie was no, no joke. You know, and then obviously he head out to the Lakers and he brought Anthony Davis with him. So Michael took these homegrown guys, drafted guys, and he raised them, helped raise them, and made them into the player that they became. And he just put little sprinkle pieces around them and he made them a championship team. So that's where I give him the, the advantage over, you know, over LeBron is that he can take just simple pieces and make them into something that's great.

[A]

Your response to that?

[B]

I thought that made no sense. And I'm a big. I mean, look, I like John Starks. I have again, profound respect for the guys that played. But two things could be true. First of all, I think sometimes people say things without having the context. And I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Right. You're up on these platforms, you got a short minute. And you're always going to be biased to the years that you play your generation. But when you talk about growing people, and he mentioned homegrown, what the homegrown context tells me is those people were brought to the team by the decision makers on the team. That's not Michael. Michael was not the decision maker. Michael was a player. I don't think Michael decided who came where. Scotty was drafted there. Horace Grant was drafted there. You go and get second act of

[A]

a Dennis Rodman, Tony Ku coach Tony

[B]

Kuko was drafted there.

[A]

You added guys, Ron Harper, later on,

[B]

later on, BJ Armstrong, et cetera. So when guys have these conversations, and I hate to make it about LeBron because in my position, but it is what it is we have to talk about. Just makes no sense to me to say these type of things. You can say that yes, Michael was successful because the pieces that were placed around him, he never had to leave, they replenished and they were able to, I believe, grow together. And all the pieces made sense and they fit. They put the triangle offense in. And Michael, his growth came from being open and willing to play within a system, because that system to trust his teammates allowed him.

[A]

That's Phil Jackson in the triangle.

[B]

That system allowed him to develop the trust in his teammates and also to become very efficient. They simplified things. Great. That's not a knock against LeBron. Right. Because I would say this. On the other hand, is this the

[A]

research you were doing?

[B]

Yeah. And it's no offense to anybody, but on the other hand, the 20067 team that a 22 year old took to the Finals. Shannon Brown, Daniel Gibson, Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Right. Zydrunas. Damon Jones, Dwayne Jones, Danielle Marshall, Ira Newble, Pavlovich, Scott Pollard, Eric Snow, Verjao and David Wesley.

[A]

And this is not a Finals team. It's not a Finals team.

[B]

And they went up against Duncan.

[A]

It's not even a team that should go on a playoff run.

[B]

Parker.

[A]

Except even if you, if you replace LeBron James with an all star caliber player, that team does not go on a deep run in the playoffs.

[B]

No. Replace them with any. All first team, all NBA in this current.

[A]

And back then, nah, there's some guys who could at least take them on a run. Not to the conference, but maybe not to the final. But like that's, you know, that and the Sixers team Iverson took to the Finals are the two worst finals teams.

[B]

But okay, so you talk about coaches, right? Yeah, let's talk about the coaches on that staff. Hank Egan, Melvin Hunt, Chris Gent Kuster, Kenny Natt, Mike Malone. Mike Malone became a head coach. Melvin Hunt probably could have become a head coach. Just never got the job, never got the opportunity. And Chris. Chris Jennings still coaching. State coaching. Now let's go to the. This is a. I think it's a 2009 team. Gibson, Hixon, Nagowskis, Darnell Jackson, Trey Johnson, Terrence Kenzie, Sasha Pavlovich, Joe Smith, Wally Zerbiak, Verjow, Ben Wallace, Delonte West, Jawad Williams, Mo Williams, Lorenzen.

[A]

We got some names on that team.

[B]

Mo Williams became an all Star, right?

[A]

Yep. Rattled off four, five, six names there that were on championship teams at one point. Or else. Were All Stars. Or else. We're very good players.

[B]

Yeah, but not on the team, right?

[A]

Not in the moment.

[B]

They wasn't. These guys wasn't in their prime. Ben Walls was in their prime.

[A]

This is the thing I'll say about what Stark said, Rich.

[B]

No, but wait, wait, before you say it, let me finish. And then obviously the 2010 team there was Shaq, who was at the end of his career. Antwan Jameson, Cedric Jackson, Darnell Jackson again, Danny Green, who was a rookie or whatever you had Mo, Sebastian Telfer, et cetera. Leon Poe. The point I'm making is when you have these guys go on these shows and say things, they haven't done the work. So now you talk about he had to go places. So you telling me in life, if I'm in a position to where things aren't getting better and there's a pressure and an expectation on me to actually be better and I have to be dependent of someone else who won't trade

[A]

J.J. hickson for Amari Stoudemire, making decisions

[B]

for me that my career is up against. You're telling me to sit there or is it the right thing to do, to go elsewhere? Are you saying go elsewhere where? You have to climb this mountain. What are you talking about? That makes no sense. So going to Miami, I was one person that was against it in the moment, but in hindsight, it was the absolute right thing to do. And you win. Right? Because now I get to make the choice. I didn't make the choice to get drafted. I was the number one player. I was drafted by the team with the number one pick. It's up to that team to do certain things. Then coming back, different dynamic. Now I'm better educated. I understand what it means to, to. To win. I have different representation. I'm educated differently on the situation. And yes, what are the bright spots when you're going to look? If I'm going to look for a house and I have kids, what am I looking at? School, district. I'm looking at crime, I'm looking at layout, et cetera, so and so forth. I'm looking at property value, all those things. So going to another team, of course I'm going to look at the positives of it. And in that case, it was KYRIE IRVING.

[A]

What LeBron did in Miami was act as part of a de facto GM squad where it's like, my GM won't get me players, but I can join forces with Wade and Bosh in Miami. That's. You still have to develop chemistry. You have to figure out how to play together. It's not the same thing as KD parachuting into Golden State, but let me

[B]

tell you, if he chooses Chicago, Chicago wins.

[A]

But the big. Right, but the big. Of course. But the bigger thing to me about Starks argument, and obviously I grew up watching, you know, when I was in high school, I'm watching John Starks on the Knicks as the second scoring option behind Patrick Ewing. But I don't like it when people make weak MJ arguments. Because you don't need to make weak MJ arguments. In fact, from now on, everyone. I'm going to send everyone the talking points on mj. You could just repeat my talking points because I have the arguments. But, but the point is like, people will do this a lot. He, LeBron had to go other places to win MJ. Well, look, you could say MJ scrimmaged against Pippen and that made Pippen a better player. I wouldn't doubt it. Right. It makes sense that that would happen. But actually. And Doug Collins, good coach, but they brought in Phil Jackson. Michael learned how to trust his teammates. Pippen developed into a great player. Grant developed a very good player. They did it. It's nothing against Jordan. Everyone needs teammates. But he was not in the same position where he was forced to look elsewhere. Cause they wouldn't bring anyone in. I don't know why that's an argument for people. I don't know why people make the argument. By the way, if you're a Jordan supporter, you don't need these arguments. They're bad arguments. They're good arguments. These are not them. They'll say, well, in Michael's era, he got hacked so much. Look at LeBron trying to sell calls because they play in different eras. Yes, LeBron fakes selling calls and everything like everyone does nowadays. Because. Because you're rewarded for it. It's an issue of incentive. You think LeBron James at 260 pounds was going to have a problem playing in the 80s or 90s? He would have been great in the 80s.

[B]

Not even just his size, his speed, athleticism.

[A]

Yeah, no shit.

[B]

Those guys were.

[A]

Of course it's. So it's the argument that Jordan played in a tougher era or that Jordan had to stay in Chicago where LeBron cherry picked and moved around. Those are weak arguments. There are strong arguments. Those are not them. And what it makes it seem sound like to LeBron supporters, John Starks, is it makes it sound to LeBron supporters that there aren't better arguments that you're reaching because LeBron is in fact the goat.

[B]

You don't need to reach.

[A]

You don't need to reach.

[B]

But what I will say is, had LeBron played on any of those Knicks teams, John Starks would have a ring.

[A]

If you. LeBron James to the Knicks. And then, yes, okay, of course they

[B]

win at least two rings.

[A]

If you. No shit. If you add one of the greatest players ever to a Powerhouse team.

[B]

So what does that tell you?

[A]

That Starks's argument is not a.

[B]

Okay, we can move on.

[A]

Yes. It's not a good argument.

[B]

Let's go. Some emails. Oh, no.

[A]

First of all, quick hit. Knicks lost to the Rockets. That's three in a row for the Knicks now.

[B]

Yeah, that takes some concern.

[A]

You know why I'm concerned?

[B]

Why?

[A]

You put someone like Thompson on, on Brunson, it's a whole different ball game. He's a small guard. You put a long defender on him, it's a problem. Athletic teams are going to be a problem for the Knicks.

[B]

Yes, that's, that's athletic. Teams are problems for every team.

[A]

Steph Curry cleared for full contact scrimmage. You think? Are you surprised he's going to come back?

[B]

No. He loves to play basketball.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He's Steph Curry. Why would I be surprised? Coming back? No, not at all. Can't have it both ways.

[A]

Nothing to play for this year.

[B]

Yeah, but you can't complain about all these players make so much money and then they don't want to play. If he's healthy, he wants to play. He wants to play.

[A]

Someone you may be familiar with a LeBron, I think it's pronounced James now has the most wins if you include playoffs. Because he passed.

[B]

Unbelievable, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, listen, I can't even keep up with the awards. You know, the, the, the, the, the House of 330-is- going to have to be the House of 3000 and oh, it's just no more room in the house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With these awards.

[A]

Yeah. It's. No, I mean like you play at that level for this many years.

[B]

It's unbelievable. It's a blessing.

[A]

You all right? You want to do, you want to do. Let's do it. I mean we've been going a long time. How long we've been going? 1:14. All right, we're in overtime. Let's do one email.

[B]

Let's do one email. I'll do it.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Kelly, K.P. from San Luis. Hi. Game over. Team. The Wade versus Harden debate has been popping up again. I think it's a perfect entry point into a bigger conversation. Better versus greater. I can understand the argument that Harden might be the better player where I feel much more confident in saying that Wade is undoubtedly greater. His game consistently elevated when it mattered most. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the idea of better versus greater and where you think Wade and Harden land in the all time shooting guard rankings. Thanks and keep up the great work.

[A]

So first of all, I invented Better versus greater. And this is a misapplication.

[B]

What is going on?

[A]

Here's what it is. Better is. This is the argument, this is the mistake people make when they say, like KD is better than Bird. Let's say, right, well, of course he's better than Bird. Strictly better. In the same way, Rich, that every top 10 sprinter in the world today is better than Jesse Owens. Right. They run fast. You can object. You don't have to make it subjective time it. He wouldn't place in the top 10. Now, none of them are as great because better is strictly speaking how effective you are. You know, how well you do something, what level you can reach. If you pluck them out of their primes, just playing how they played, how would they do against each other. And greater is how you fared against your contemporaries. Because the more recent athlete has the advantage almost always over the older athlete. Cause they built on what the older athlete did because training gets more sophisticated, et cetera. Even when I make that comment about Jesse Owens, people say, well, it's not true. Because if you substitute the equipment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, he would be just, yeah, but you didn't. He was running with that equipment. That's the time he produced. So that's better or greater.

[B]

Who's better?

[A]

But in Wade and Harden's case, yes. When you say better because they're contemporaries who overlapped even if their primes didn't exactly overlap, Wade is better because if your argument is that Harden is better in all these situations until it matters most and then Wade is better, those games are higher leverage, they're worth more. If you are better in those games, you are better, period. So Wade is better than Harden. If you want to argue Harden shot it better, he was actually better because his prime came later than Wade's. So the game had evolved and he evolved with it. And so. Okay, fine. But that's a separate argument.

[B]

Yes, Harden has an MVP. Wade has a championships, has a final MVP, top 75 and a finals MVP. Wade is the number three best shooting guard of all time.

[A]

Was when he, when he. No.

[B]

Yes. Is he still Michael Kobe Dewey? Yeah.

[A]

Oh, that's always that. But I think you have to include Jerry west at West's best at the probably hard. Probably Wade is four.

[B]

Okay. If you're including a logo on a jersey post, then great.

[A]

Post three point shot. Post three point shot.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Wade is probably.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Kawhi is a three, not a two.

[B]

Kawhi is a three. And I think James Harden. James Harden is right there. And if, if there's anybody that I would like to see win a championship one day to be a part of James, a good guy and a great player. James Harden and a great player. But he's fourth on that list.

[A]

So yeah, he's and he's. And, and, but even if you say that's what I mean about better and greater, it's not how if your contemporaries and one guy, and one guy's better in the regular season and the other guy's better in the play, the guy who's better in the playoffs is a better player.

[B]

And you know what?

[A]

If you're not quite contemporaries because Harden's prime coincided with the three point revolution more than Wade's did, then even if Harden is better, he's not as great because he in his era was not at the same level as Wade was. In Wade's era, Wade was, other than LeBron and Kobe, the best player. It's certainly the best non big in basketball.

[B]

Two different styles, two different players, both very good. Yeah, but that's it.

[A]

The only reason Kobe is greater than Wade is he's 2 inches taller like Wade is 6, 4. And almost as good as Kobe Bryant at his best. And by the way, and the ultimate competitor between LeBron and, between Jordan's Finals and LeBron, when he started taking over in the finals, the best finals anyone had was Dwyane Wade against Dallas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That was the best finals anyone had between Jordan and LeBron.

[B]

And it was unexpected. And he took, he took, he, he took over. He took the wheel. Nobody gave him that. He took over the wheel and drove the car. Okay.

[A]

All right. That's.

[B]

Good show, Max.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Good. Wednesday.

[A]

We got another one on Friday.

[B]

Got another one on Friday. Yes, we do.

[A]

We're going to. We, we didn't leave anything. We got to everything we wanted to get to.

[B]

Got to everything. Yeah. Took a look. I'm. I'm running late for my meeting.

[A]

You got to go?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, we'll see you on Friday. Max Keller and Rich Paul. Game over.

[B]

Game over.

[A]

@Spotify.com we do the emails.

[B]

We did the emails. Yes, we did.

[A]

Yeah. See you on Friday.

[B]

All right.

[A]

21 and over in select states for Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchattinconenetic or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here, visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-87-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.