← Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
LeBron’s Future, NBA Playoffs, and Trail Blazers Governor Tom Dundon | Game Over
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- [00:00]
Max Kellerman
This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them. Right. You're gonna do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it free@ziprecruiter.com gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free@ziprecruiter.com gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Rich Drake drops the album last night at midnight.
- [01:23]
Rich Paul
Three albums?
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Max Kellerman
Yeah, three. I've heard three. Four songs.
- [01:26]
Rich Paul
Yeah, I've heard some joints, but I got like, you gotta. You gotta really sit down and listen because there's. There's. There's gonna be a lot there.
- [01:35]
Max Kellerman
Right?
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Rich Paul
So. But I did hear a song, and I don't know if it's. You never know if it's. Oh, you know, when people are making albums like this, especially three, it could have been 200 songs, but it's called Cold Air, which I thought was crazy, but again, I don't even know if it's on the album as these things leak.
- [01:56]
Max Kellerman
Of course, you know, the big publicity on the record is he goes at your guy because he's mad that.
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Rich Paul
Yeah, you know, look. Yeah, I don't get into that stuff, man. Like, at the end of the day, I think it's important for adults really reconcile down the road.
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Max Kellerman
It's hard.
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Rich Paul
Stay out of that.
- [02:14]
Max Kellerman
Because. Because the nature of hip hop and competition in hip hop is you're actually talking about the person in a certain way and trying to diss them. Right. But it's. It's also hard because, like, I don't know.
- [02:27]
Rich Paul
I'm not.
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Max Kellerman
Yeah, I. Look, put it this way. I have. I have been involved in my own professional career in public. In public situations.
- [02:36]
Rich Paul
Yeah.
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Max Kellerman
Where someone I was with Working with was talking about me all over the place. And I have lots of friends in the industry who are friends who are still at least cordial and talking to that person. What am I going to do? Say you're not allowed to associate with that person. So if like Kendrick releases a song and it's a banger, what are you supposed to do?
- [02:55]
Rich Paul
Yeah, listen, I don't get involved in any of that. I go all the way back to Vividly Day. So for me it's just about, you know, allowing time to pass and hopefully people can reconcile. Yeah, they usually do if they're close their, their differences. I do think in situations, in any situation it's important to, to remove the middleman because that's what happens. You know, conversations continue to get stirred up and people got opinions and agendas and different things like that. And I think that over time you have to let two people have a adult conversations if it's able to get there and hopefully people reconcile their differences.
- [03:36]
Max Kellerman
The one thing about Drake that I give him credit for is there aren't that many guys like this. I would say Jay is like this, Eminem's like this, Wayne is like this. They are the masters of the words. Like this is something. We talked about this before as it relates to Kanye who's all time great producer but as a rapper I think overrated. Not that he was bad, but like most rappers are like this. They get open, right? Then there's an opportunity for a rhyme and they take it because they think, oh yeah, that, that, you know, that's a clever thing to say. And they take that and it starts to affect the opportunity for a rhyme. Starts to, when they get open, starts to affect the actual thing they're saying. Whereas some, like the four I mentioned and Drake is one of them, are the masters of the words. They make the words do exactly what they want them to do. It's not like, oh, this would be clever. And they say it and it's like, yeah, but what does that have to do with what you were talking about? Drake's one of those dudes who makes the words do exactly what he wants. That's like a. That's probably the highest level.
- [04:43]
Rich Paul
Yeah, I mean look, Drake's been. Drake's been the best, the best music artist for the last 15 years, however long. He's come in 2009. Yes, I know for a fact when he came out in 2009. So 2008. Really so. But really that, that 2010 to. I don't know, whatever that that run Was. Can't deny the music. There's no doubt about that.
- [05:08]
Max Kellerman
Are you ready to do. You ready to do some sports?
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Rich Paul
Yeah, let's do it.
- [05:11]
Max Kellerman
We're gonna. Okay.
- [05:12]
Rich Paul
Playoffs.
- [05:13]
Max Kellerman
If you want to leave a voicemail, it's 424-240-8341.
- [05:17]
Rich Paul
Yes. If you want to win some money, it's 8341. Ten and ten. That's what that is.
- [05:22]
Max Kellerman
Emails, too, I think, because we have an interview coming up with Tom.
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Rich Paul
Tom Dundon. Yes.
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Max Kellerman
Who's the owner. Governor of the. Of the Portland Trailblazers, but he's also
- [05:34]
Rich Paul
the owner of the Carolina Hurricane. Different terminology.
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Max Kellerman
But he's, you know, so we're going to spend some time with him. Maybe we'll hold off the voicemails and the emails till Monday.
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Rich Paul
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the.
- [05:48]
Max Kellerman
We've been getting some. You want to give them the email address?
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Rich Paul
Yeah. Game over@Spotify.com.
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Max Kellerman
game over. 424 248,341. We'll get to them.
- [05:56]
Rich Paul
I think they would much rather hear the interview with Tom anyway.
- [05:59]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, he's a.
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Rich Paul
He owns two franchises, guys.
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Max Kellerman
Super successful, super interesting guy.
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Rich Paul
We spent some time at the combine. Super interesting guy.
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Max Kellerman
We got a lot of stuff.
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Rich Paul
Yeah.
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Max Kellerman
Cavs and Pistons, spurs and Wolves.
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Rich Paul
We got two games.
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Max Kellerman
Bronze future Steve Kerr.
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Rich Paul
Now, wait a minute. Nobody's talking about LeBron's future. We're not talking about that, Max. We're not talking about that. No, we're talking about.
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Max Kellerman
I respect. Rich, I respect that. We're not going to touch the record.
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Rich Paul
We're talking about. We're talking about two game sixes tonight.
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Max Kellerman
Yes. Yes.
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Rich Paul
One of them in my hometown.
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Max Kellerman
LeBron.
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Rich Paul
Who? Of Cleveland, Ohio.
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Max Kellerman
Yes.
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Rich Paul
I tell you one thing, it is going to be rocking in the Rocket Mortgage fieldhouse.
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Max Kellerman
Believe that.
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Rich Paul
That's for sure.
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Max Kellerman
All right, let's. Let's get started. Game over is brought to you by fanduel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at bigger payout or. Or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 8887-89-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnectic. All right, Cavs Pistons, game six. Rich, your thoughts?
- [07:41]
Rich Paul
Oh, what is my thoughts? Well, if you're the Cavs, you got the Pistons right where you want them. That's for sure. But I would ask you this. What does the Cavs have to do to justify the James Harden trade? Like, where do they have to get to to just because they traded? But before you say anything, I told you, every time you try to get on somebody, they make you pay. Who? And you try to. I told you James was a friend of mine. I, I, I stuck, I stuck by him when he, when you. No, you didn't.
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Max Kellerman
Rooting for James. He had one good end of the game based on his career now, no, that's not true.
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Rich Paul
He just played two very strong playoff games in a row. Down the stretch, he won game the
- [08:27]
Max Kellerman
game three he won down the stretch. In these same playoffs, he's had some bad games. The point is, the only thing I'm looking for from Harden, Rich, is to maintain his normally stellar level of play in the regular season. In the playoffs, he still has not done that. In these playoffs, however, who cares if they keep advancing, if they keep winning, I'm rooting for that to happen. I think Harden is too good to spend his career without a chip. I think he has come up short too often, and by short, I mean of his own standards when it's mattered most. But let him do it. As I always say, these guys write their scripts. I'll tell you who else is writing a script. Donovan Mitchell. Who we've been on this show agreeing Mitchell, really, for me, it's just an issue of height. He's a little short to be a real number one on a championship team. And we're talking about, you know, you have a forward who has been compared to Tim Duncan, right? You have a forward on the team, maybe run through the, run the offense through him. But I don't know. Donovan's looked like a number one on a championship contender so far.
- [09:30]
Rich Paul
He's had, he's had a couple games in this series where it was like lights out, especially game four where he went on that run. But what does the Cavs have to do? Where do they have to get to to justify the trade?
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Max Kellerman
Because you want me to answer the question?
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Rich Paul
I do. Yeah. That's why I asked you, Max.
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Max Kellerman
I don't know if they can justify it in the long run without a championship because you traded a piece and a clutch client A point guard who is a true. In this modern day pure point guard. They're hard to find. Real great pick and roll point guard
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Rich Paul
for a guy top two in decision making.
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Max Kellerman
Top two in decision and for a guy who is 10 years older than him and is also a great pick and roll point guard, but is 10 years older but a more proven scorer who can even at his age. Now, however, that guy you traded for, like you gave up youth for age. And they do a lot of things at a similar level that you want them to do, right in the pick and roll stuff, but the one guy can also score maybe at a higher level. And you're making that trade because you believe that if you push your chips in now, you can get over the top. So they have to get over the top with Harden on the team. If they.
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Rich Paul
But is that this year? Is that next year? Is it over the next two years, three years?
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Max Kellerman
Well, yeah, it's over the next, it's this year and next year. They got to make minimum Eastern Conference finals and preferably the finals this year and win a chip. If they do that, then you have
- [11:06]
Rich Paul
to say over the next two years.
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Max Kellerman
Yeah, even if you trade a Hall of Famer.
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Rich Paul
Yeah, of course.
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Max Kellerman
Then you have to say, you. It works.
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Rich Paul
When the Lakers traded away Lonzo and, and, and, and Ingram and Ball, I mean, and Hart and those guys, the only way to justify it was to win a championship.
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Max Kellerman
And they did.
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Rich Paul
Yeah, and they did.
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Tom Dundon
They did.
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Max Kellerman
So here's the thing on my mind with the Pistons, Jalen Duran and I'll throw Austin Reaves in this mix. You always want players to get paid, of course. And by the way, in Reeves case, I love Reeves. I like, I just. When the Lakers were flat, we've been at games where the Lakers were flat this season. No one looked like they were really, other than LeBron looked like they were really playing the way you want someone to play. And I'll include Luka in that at the time, deandre Ayton, definitely. But I would watch Reaves and go, whatever the level of effectiveness, that guy gets it. He's trying to do the right thing at all times. But he, and especially Duran, they're costing themselves money right now, Rich. They're costing themselves money.
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Rich Paul
I think that could be a public perception for me. Obviously been in a situation where you have to represent guys. You know, going into a situation like this, there's a season, there's a season. Now the playoffs do.
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Max Kellerman
This is the season.
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Rich Paul
I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're saying. But my rebuttal to that would be, how do you replace me? See, when I was going through.
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Max Kellerman
Replace this.
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Rich Paul
No, when I was going through this situation, and it won't be this type of situation, but with Tristan Thompson, when he was on the Cavaliers at that time, where everybody was shocked about the money he got, et cetera. How do you replace me? Replace me. And if you can't replace me, then pay me.
- [13:08]
Max Kellerman
I want to get. I want to get to that. Maybe I have to do it now. I may have to do it now. Duran is playing poorly. He is harder to replace in the regular season. He means he helps get you to the playoffs better than a guy like, for example, I mentioned deandre Ayton, who played in a way in these playoffs where as a Lakers fan, you don't want him on the team. But wait, Max, that's not Duran. It's not During.
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Rich Paul
I disagree. I disagree that Duran is playing poorly. Let me tell you why. Let me just tell you why Duran is not playing poorly. Your expectation of during is mis. You're mismanaging that because. Because they lack other scores to help Cade in this situation. It allows. It allows you to perceive Durian as somebody that should be doing more. But if you had that team and everything that it actually needed, it's very good. During can actually play the role that you want him to play. Duran is great ball, screens, defensively, lob threat, all those things.
- [14:13]
Max Kellerman
Yeah. If deandre Ayton was doing any of those things for the Lakers.
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Rich Paul
If you switched the two.
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Max Kellerman
Yeah, right.
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Rich Paul
If.
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Max Kellerman
I mean, what do you. Yeah, it's a very good point.
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Rich Paul
So I just.
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Max Kellerman
I. I just want to give it a trade deadline. And you disagreed. The Pistons needed to make a trade
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Rich Paul
for a. Oh, my. Who said that? You.
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Max Kellerman
One of us said a pitch. It doesn't matter. Let's.
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Rich Paul
I know, but you have to quit. Let's not get.
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Max Kellerman
Let's not be in the past.
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Rich Paul
Take everyone else.
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Max Kellerman
Don't get bogged down.
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Rich Paul
You take everyone else's.
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Max Kellerman
One of us said it. We're not keeping score. Listen.
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Rich Paul
Okay, go ahead.
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Max Kellerman
Spurs and Wolves, game six. Ant is in a situation.
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Rich Paul
What kind of situation?
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Max Kellerman
On a good team. They're a good team.
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Rich Paul
Yes.
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Max Kellerman
He's got to be looking at the spurs and the Thunder like, I don't have enough. It's a good team, but I don't have enough. Part of that may be because he's not enough. As great as Ant is. The spurs and the Thunder like, you know, is Ant. He's not Wemby. No one's Wemby. Is he sga? Can he be sga? Because if he's sga, then maybe he doesn't have to go anywhere if he's not quite sga.
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Rich Paul
But what are you. What are you saying? What are you, what are you.
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Max Kellerman
Who's a better player?
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Rich Paul
No, not that. What are you. I don't want to get into that. I'm saying what are you saying about
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Max Kellerman
if the Wolves lose, should Antwan out?
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Rich Paul
Hmm. See, when you have a player of this magnitude, you gotta think about things differently. In my opinion. And this is the type of. Just sitting in my seat. I'm gonna put my, I'm gonna put my. What hat am I gonna wear right now I need to put on?
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Max Kellerman
Depends. What hat? Are you a CEO? Are you an agent?
- [15:59]
Rich Paul
I'm put a little bit of my GM hat on. I'm putting. And I'm put a little bit my agent hat on. All right. So I had previously represented for a very short stint our, our company did. And I always looked at the situation short, right. When you a player. And it was the same way with AD When AD Was in New Orleans and I had the conversation with him, the thing I asked him was, why did you sign a five year deal? And he was like, you know, the money, et cetera. And I'm like, yeah, but a player of your magnitude you would think is going to get the money as long as you keep doing what you do, stay healthy. And this is where, this is where people look at it and say, oh, a max deal is just a max deal. When a max deal don't come with strategy, it's not necessarily a max deal. Right? So if you, someone who has the, the, the, the, the equity that you're going to have and the value add that you're going to have on all 30 teams. When you become a player that has a value add on all 30 teams, it gives you a different positioning and a different point of power. So when I have a guy like that and you're in a position in which there hasn't been anything that told you that you can relax, you go short.
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Max Kellerman
So what Rich isn't the real thing for the players? Of course what you're saying makes sense, but just hedge against injury like before you've, before you've signed that first super duper max. Like I understand what you're saying. After I've already gotten my chunk of money that's generational, but before I've gotten that, I'm like, what if I Get what if I rupture my Achilles tomorrow?
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Rich Paul
But, but you can't go through life like that. Because here's the thing. They. You only, they only do that with athletes. And don't get me wrong, look, when LeBron came back to Cleveland, we did a one year deal, right? I hadn't made, I hadn't made no money at my company. All the money was, was I had three guys on rookie deals and another guy who's. Who, who I never had got paid from the company's two years in.
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Tom Dundon
Right.
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Max Kellerman
You have to take some risk.
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Rich Paul
I need the money for the company perspective. But no, not. I did the best thing for the
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Max Kellerman
client because what, but how do you, how do you, you say you can't go through life like that, but it is a possibility when you're. It's always a possibility, especially in today's NBA because they're so playing so intensely.
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Rich Paul
But there's some guys, they have to lose both legs and both arms. I see in. Or I'm saying it's, it's not because
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Max Kellerman
KD ruptured his Achilles still, it's not
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Rich Paul
90% of the league that can do that. But what I'm saying is if you are, if you, here's the thing, if you care about these things, the, the situation is most people don't care, right? But you want to have flexibility and you want to get. It's not, it's not hurting you in any capacity. You're actually getting back up to the table. The one risk is injury. But you know, I think it's important to, to, to evaluate situations. If you, if, if you are of the mindset of that you would ever want to get out of it. But you, but every athlete is not like that. It may be a situation where you may just, you may. Because you may just want to say, you know what? I'm going to ride it out. So then, yeah, you can sign a 10 year deal in that case.
- [19:38]
Max Kellerman
I'm Ant's agent. I want them in a big market. I just want them in a big market.
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Rich Paul
Well, here's the thing.
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Max Kellerman
I look at New York or LA and I think, oh my God, the
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Rich Paul
player has to want to be in a big market.
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Max Kellerman
Is Ant against being in a big market?
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Rich Paul
I don't know. I never talked to him about it. But when you have a mindset of no, I'm going to win right here, it's not like Tim Connolly does a great job with the Timberwolves. They've been. When Tim Connolly traded for Gobert, he got A lot of flack about that. And guess what? Gobert has been great there.
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Max Kellerman
And I don't think. And I didn't think at the time they got enough for Cat.
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Rich Paul
Yeah, but they've been to the Western Conference finals two out of three years.
- [20:21]
Max Kellerman
I'm saying the evidence says that I was wrong and he was right. I didn't think they got enough for Cat. But they've been in the conference finals.
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Rich Paul
Yeah. So if so as a GM or the president of a team, I'm saying, Max, what are you talking about? We've been to the Western Conference finals two out of three years. If I'm an agent, I'm saying, is this player value add strong enough around the league that I can advise him to go short. Now, in order to do that, when I say short, that's a two plus one. That's a three year contract. Two years with a player option, therefore. Hey, we've been to the Western Conference finals two out of three years. Hey, you know what? Maybe I decide I want to look at it. It's like playing blackjack. But I'm the dealer. The dealer get to see both cards of mine, but we only get to see one of his. When you're a player and you have that leverage, you. You can maybe do so now from an agent perspective, where this comes into play and this is where you have to make the best decision for the player and not for you, those other two years matter in your pocket. Right. So in most cases, you trying to. You know, I would. I would say when most guys are saying no, don't leave that on the table. I'm not doing that. I'm saying, let's do what's right. I've been in situations where we could sign an extension right now, and the risk is playing a season and getting hurt. Look at Tyrese Maxey.
- [21:52]
Max Kellerman
But I'm really talking about competitively.
- [21:54]
Rich Paul
Yes.
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Max Kellerman
Should ant want out of. Because Minnesota is getting there. Almost there. But you know, they're not about to beat the Thunder.
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Rich Paul
But you're saying something. Max is not so much as wanting out is. I don't. I would probably say no to that.
- [22:10]
Max Kellerman
Okay. Meantime, everyone's talking about Wembanyama and Wemby and Dylan Harper. Right. And Harper looks amazing.
- [22:19]
Rich Paul
What about him?
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Max Kellerman
They're not even talking about Castle. Like when you like, it's unbelievable. It's not just because Wemby and Harper is devastating. Castle's like. He looks like the second coming of Kawhi Leonard at this stage in his career.
- [22:34]
Rich Paul
Castle's yes, you're absolutely right.
- [22:38]
Max Kellerman
So who's Dylan Harper? What's the closest comp I.
- [22:46]
Rich Paul
Dylan Harper's interesting because he has the size of his father. Right. He's just a. But then he made a move the other day, and this is a very underrated move in transition. He went behind the back twice. Bop, bop, in transition. You know how hard that you couldn't do that without a ball.
- [23:09]
Max Kellerman
Who's the comp?
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Rich Paul
I don't know. He's a mix between Ron Harper and Nick Van Exel. I don't fucking know this guy.
- [23:17]
Max Kellerman
So Wemby is. If you made. If you like, took Kevin Durant and added half a foot. That's Wemby. Castle is like a young Kawhi Leonard.
- [23:31]
Rich Paul
Yes.
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Max Kellerman
Think of what we're describing here.
- [23:33]
Rich Paul
Yes.
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Max Kellerman
And Harper is a hybrid of something we haven't seen before even.
- [23:39]
Rich Paul
Yes. But here's the thing. Why would you stop there?
- [23:44]
Max Kellerman
Because I'm trying.
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Rich Paul
What about.
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Max Kellerman
No, no. They have a six, man. They have this. But I'm saying, like, when people talk about the best duo ever, the young players like Wemby and Harper have a chance to be one. One of the best duos ever. But on top of that, Rich, it's almost like Castle has a chance to be so good that you really can't talk about duo. You have to talk. It's like Kareem and Magic and Worthy. But Kareem was already on the way down when Worthy was on the way up. All these three dudes, if they stay healthy, are going to be in their primes together.
- [24:14]
Rich Paul
Yeah, well, you know what? What you're telling me is that what I already knew. Remember when I talked to you about a guy named Chip? Shooting coach? Yep. You know where he came from? San Antonio.
- [24:30]
Max Kellerman
Okay. San Antonio. Yeah.
- [24:31]
Rich Paul
Oh, oh, oh.
- [24:31]
Max Kellerman
You're talking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [24:32]
Rich Paul
They have another guy. They have another guy. This guy. Have another guy. This guy's name is Dave. Dave Tellip. And Dave Tellip is somebody that I used to go to. When I get a player. I would call a few guys around the league. He's one of them, and say, what do you think about this guy? If he says this guy is good, you gave. You take him.
- [24:54]
Max Kellerman
Right.
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Rich Paul
So this is what you're seeing is Dave Teller.
- [25:00]
Max Kellerman
When I think of the greatest trios in the history of basketball, at least modern history, like Bird and mchale, and people want to throw in, like, Parish. And Parish is really good, but different level of player. Bird and McHale, Duncan and Ginobili and Parker. Yeah. That was a great trio who went through their primes together. That's one. Listen. Jordan and Pippen and Rodman. But they were. They were older.
- [25:28]
Rich Paul
Rodman was already groomed.
- [25:29]
Max Kellerman
They were already. Okc. Thunder had KD and Westbrook and Harden.
- [25:34]
Rich Paul
They didn't stay together.
- [25:35]
Max Kellerman
They didn't stay together.
- [25:36]
Rich Paul
Yes.
- [25:36]
Max Kellerman
So we're really, so far, we're really still just dealing with Duncan and Ginobili and Parker. Also the Spurs. Right. But who am I missing? Okay. Steph and Clay and Dre.
- [25:48]
Rich Paul
That's a good one.
- [25:49]
Max Kellerman
That's a really good one. Steph, Clay and Dre.
- [25:51]
Rich Paul
Yes.
- [25:52]
Max Kellerman
Ginobili, Parker and Duncan.
- [25:54]
Rich Paul
Yes.
- [25:55]
Max Kellerman
In both those cases. In both those cases, you had one guy, Duncan and Steph, clearly on a different level than the other two. And I guess what I'm trying to say is Wemby is that guy. He's Duncan or Steph in the sense that he's clearly on a different level. But Harper and Castle have a chance. They're far away from it still. They have a chance to be better than Ginobili and Parker or Draymond and Clay. They have a chance.
- [26:24]
Rich Paul
Well, let's let them turn out to be.
- [26:26]
Max Kellerman
If Harper turns out to be an all NBA player and so does Castle,
- [26:29]
Rich Paul
let's let him win something first.
- [26:31]
Max Kellerman
I'm just saying. Potentially.
- [26:32]
Rich Paul
I understand. Potentially, of course. Course to listen, I will say this. It's very difficult to draft young players and they hit in year one. Like, there's no need to wait for year three. We know what they are right now.
- [26:47]
Max Kellerman
It's insane.
- [26:48]
Rich Paul
There's no need to. There's no need to wait. Normally you say, you know what, let's wait and see by year three. How guys trending. This in this case is like, let's wait and see by the third day of training camp.
- [27:00]
Max Kellerman
That's why I see the middle of the season rich. When they started to stop, when they stopped losing games. It's like, wait a minute. And I thought this for a second about Detroit, but you were right. They needed more. Like, could Detroit be that the spurs have a chance to steal one before they're ready? Which would be insane, because if they steal one this year before they're ready and stay healthy, that's a lot. But if they do, they could have a dynasty unlike maybe anything we've seen in the modern era.
- [27:27]
Rich Paul
But you know how genius it was because most people wouldn't do this. And I'm not. This is not me being. I want to preface this. When the spurs found out they were Getting the number two pick. They knew who they were taking, right? They knew they were taking Dylan Harper. Yeah, but you traded for de', Aaron, right? And in most cases, you're like, no, they still committed $224 million. That says to me, you know what? Not only are we giving ourselves a chance, we want to accelerate this thing. We want to. Because you got Vassell, you got Fox, you got Kellen Johnson, Luke Cornette, the role he plays.
- [28:17]
Max Kellerman
But that's the thing about. You just mentioned the Aaron Fox. That's the reason I think they could steal one right now without the Aaron Fox, I'd be like, okay, they don't have enough. And if you were looking around the league, who could they add, right? But with de' Aaron Fox on this team, if he wins, go just looking forward to the rest of these playoffs. If the spurs could keep advancing, if de' Aaron Fox wins two or three games at the end of the game, that if you replaced him with someone else, maybe they don't win. That could easily be the difference between chipping up year one of this.
- [28:51]
Rich Paul
Or they have a Runway of. Really. The way you look at this max is you look at it and say, okay, when does the money start coming on the books for Wemby and Castle? You don't have to worry about Harper. He's four years away.
- [29:03]
Max Kellerman
Right.
- [29:03]
Rich Paul
But when does the money.
- [29:04]
Max Kellerman
How long has Castle been in the league?
- [29:06]
Rich Paul
Two.
- [29:06]
Max Kellerman
Two years.
- [29:07]
Rich Paul
Yeah. Yeah, right. But you base it off of when does the money start to hit the books? We know what they have to give Wimby. It's not enough money. They should be able to go through the max to pay Wimby.
- [29:20]
Max Kellerman
They should be. That's a huge advantage.
- [29:22]
Rich Paul
Plus.
- [29:22]
Max Kellerman
Plus how much over the max your best player is worth is way over is what it's all about. And when he's worth, because he's the best player in basketball, as I've been saying for a while, he's worth so much.
- [29:34]
Rich Paul
They should like the max. Plus the city of Austin.
- [29:37]
Max Kellerman
Right?
- [29:38]
Rich Paul
He should get. Yeah, yeah, Austin.
- [29:40]
Max Kellerman
Best city in Texas. My opinion. All right, let's.
- [29:43]
Rich Paul
That's why you should have it.
- [29:45]
Max Kellerman
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- [30:39]
Rich Paul
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- [31:09]
Max Kellerman
LeBron James.
- [31:11]
Rich Paul
We're not. Nope.
- [31:12]
Max Kellerman
Rich. Max, I know we're not going to talk about LeBron James's future because everyone's made public. He does not know what he's going to do yet. It's going to have a lot to do about his family, right?
- [31:27]
Rich Paul
Not a lot.
- [31:28]
Max Kellerman
That's the deciding to do about his family.
- [31:30]
Rich Paul
Just let me just table it for you. There's been no conversation. We want to be extremely respectful to him and his family. Family. I don't know anything. I know absolutely nothing. I'm not talking to him about it. We're not talking about it. It's very clear. It's black. Okay.
- [31:51]
Max Kellerman
How does the decision making process work with LeBron? Well, I'm asking like you're saying it's all about family. So the reason I bring this up is because I imagine from the Lakers point of view, from the point of view of a Lakers fan, hoping he resigns. When you talk about family, one of the things that he's already experienced, which is incredible, but I imagine since that's so incredible, you want to keep is playing with your son. He's playing with his son. That's insane. And by the way, his son went like this, right? Like at first, it's like, oh, come on, he's on the team because of LeBron. But you could see he can do certain things right. Like he's trending in the right direction. I think if you're LeBron James, wouldn't you?
- [32:46]
Rich Paul
Right, here's what I'll say. Max, we've been at this thing a long time and we've always at the end of every year decided to give time and. But in this case, you knew another decision was to be made, right? Whatever it was going to be, you know, you sit down. But in all seriousness, in this case, it's like the, the, the, the relationship that we have and the cohesiveness and the tight knit group of that we have of people that are in the know. And not that you have a say, because I don't have a say in whatever decision that he decides to make. This is, but this is the one time where, you know, I'm on, I'm on the outside of this, right. Because this is him and his wife and his two sons and his daughter. And, and so when you ask the question, how was the decision made? This is the first year that the decision will be made. Whatever decision is made, a lot different than has ever been made.
- [33:58]
Max Kellerman
So it hasn't been made like that in the past ever before.
- [34:01]
Rich Paul
It's always been made in the past amongst a close knit group.
- [34:05]
Max Kellerman
But this is the new family now.
- [34:07]
Rich Paul
His daughter wasn't born, the kids were smaller. Just, you know, you didn't have 23 years in the league. And so the, it's always been a thing where you huddle up afterwards and I would present, you know, at least since I've been representing them, I would present the different options we may have and what you think and so on and so forth and everybody give their input and ultimately make a decision. In this case, there is no everybody.
- [34:34]
Max Kellerman
It's nuclear family.
- [34:35]
Rich Paul
That's it.
- [34:35]
Max Kellerman
That's it. Got it.
- [34:36]
Rich Paul
That's it. Yes.
- [34:37]
Max Kellerman
What do you make of the stories? There are reports, Dave McMenamin, who I used to work with at ESPN, L.A. and everything. LeBron being upset about not getting a game ball and the Lakers not liking dealing with clutch sports.
- [34:53]
Rich Paul
Well, well, two things.
- [34:56]
Max Kellerman
One, I don't mean to turn this into.
- [34:59]
Rich Paul
No, but Dave McMinamon didn't say that that came from. First take. That came from Stephen A.
- [35:03]
Max Kellerman
Pardon me, Dave.
- [35:05]
Rich Paul
And again, I can only go by how I'm treated. So I've never experienced that. And I don't know how many players we've done business with over the last eight years is probably like more than most. So I don't, I don't experience that and I don't have emotions in business at all. I'm going to, obviously I've run A very big business and want to be respectful to that. So I don't. Wherever that came from, from Stephen A. And throughout an organization who knows, somebody may not like the fact that, you
- [35:37]
Max Kellerman
know, all it takes is one person. Yeah.
- [35:38]
Rich Paul
So. So I've never, I've never gotten that.
- [35:42]
Max Kellerman
I've told you this story on the, on the show before months ago. I'll tell it again. I was doing afternoon drive, ESPN LA radio. We were the home of the Lakers, right? The Lakers stations. John Ireland, Michael Thompson, Clay's dad, former number one overall draft pick, backed up Kareem won two chips. But that's the LA radio, you know, coverage of the Lakers. They do the live games. And I was doing a show, Max and Marcellus with me and Marcellus Wiley. And I remember when the Lakers signed kcp, right? Yeah, when the Lakers signed kcp. I read that as the host of Afternoon Drive, trying to read the tea leaves as an amazing sign. And I was like, hold on, LeBron is going to be a free agent next year. I think it was the following year. The Lakers had cap space and went out and got. Not just because he's a good player, but because he was a clutch client.
- [36:45]
Rich Paul
I thought, oh my God, you thought that. I thought it was because he just, he could sign a one year deal and, and yes, but when they were taking preserve their cap space franchises.
- [36:55]
Max Kellerman
Yes, no question. Yes, no question that. But when a franchise is looking for hope, the local radio tries to look at.
- [37:02]
Rich Paul
For anything.
- [37:04]
Max Kellerman
And you're looking at that going, wait a minute. That deepens a relationship with clutch. And we started speculating, could this mean that LeBron could wind up in LA? And I was, and this is before we were dealing with each other as much as we wound up dealing with each other years later. And I was like on the radio going, hey, Jeannie, Rich Paul should be your new best friend. Like, what are we like, excellent. This is great. And then LeBron wound up with the Lakers and the main thing is he deli and so did AD and they delivered a championship.
- [37:39]
Rich Paul
You know, listen, Max, these things get sprinkled and positioned and placed by different people. I remember there were several different agencies calling into the Lakers and saying, oh, you guys are only a clutch organization and, and plan on their emotions and psychological things about things like that. The way I look at it is this. When you're doing business with somebody, you want them to care, right? And anytime you do business with us, we care. In a situation that you're representing the best player in the world and the most Sought after the face of the
- [38:13]
Max Kellerman
NBA number one star in the world.
- [38:14]
Rich Paul
The partnership that comes with that is he has to do his part, but then you also have to do do your part. And I think that the athlete don't necessarily. The athlete. Everything is put on the athlete. But what. But. But the athlete doesn't control everything, despite what people may say or think. And you don't have enough hours in the day to dispute all these things. And you got all this different stuff coming from different places. What I will say to you is this. I never know. And I'm not. Dave McMenamine is my guy. Great guy and he does a great job. Professional job, of course. I think people are reading too much into whether it was a sign ball or anything. I've never seen. I've never in my life seen LeBron disgruntled about a basketball or some type of accolade the man has. I can't tell you how many put we had the data open a Google Gemini somebody. How many player the week, player the month, MVP, gold medal. Unglo got trophies dating back to 1992. This guy got so many awards. Another. Another basketball, I don't know. But I will say in the event that you have what happened that night where you have all these different people have these things, just get three, four basketballs.
- [39:43]
Max Kellerman
That's an easy one.
- [39:44]
Rich Paul
Let's move on. I don't want to, by the way.
- [39:45]
Max Kellerman
I want to say something else. And for those like, yes, I'm doing the show with Rich.
- [39:49]
Rich Paul
Yeah.
- [39:50]
Max Kellerman
And so do I. Would I like Rock Clutch sweatpants? Yeah, of course I would represent.
- [39:55]
Rich Paul
But you're not biased.
- [39:56]
Max Kellerman
I am not. Well, I mean, you could listen watch. Of course I'm rooting for you. But. But I'm not employed by Clutch or anything like that.
- [40:04]
Rich Paul
And neither is nobody. Shannon Sharp and Nick Wright. None of these guys are employed by.
- [40:08]
Max Kellerman
Right. What people don't.
- [40:10]
Rich Paul
Here's the thing, Max. What people don't understand and I think what people we know. The world loves negativity. The world loves drama. We get it. Why you think there's reality TV stars because everything is dramatized. I think it's toxic. But it is what it is. It's an industry. As it pertains to someone like myself who sit in the seat I sit in in a very authentic way. You know, you're going to get things thrown at you a lot different than others because you can't see the corporation. You don't see. You don't see the people in the. My competitors. You don't see them. You don't see. So. So it's an easy target to shoot at.
- [40:58]
Max Kellerman
The reason I bring it up is because I'm about to say something that people's. Oh, it was a Clutch thing. No, no. This is my opinion, by the way. Is it influenced by the fact that we're friends, that we do a show? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Like. But this is my honest opinion, and this is how I would see it when I was a kid rooting for the Knicks and the Lakers, you know, wind up with James Worthy as the number one pick. And then it's not like they won enough championship. Now they win more championships. I'm like, man, what it would be like to be a Lakers fan. This is really. I'm talking to the Lakers, I guess, right now in terms of their relationship
- [41:38]
Rich Paul
with Clutch is fantastic, by the way.
- [41:40]
Max Kellerman
Just. Or the way. The way I would imagine. I just want to tell. Say this so the Lakers have a perspective of what that relationship.
- [41:48]
Rich Paul
I'm going to ask you something before you say this, because you've been to several games with me.
- [41:52]
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
- [41:53]
Rich Paul
What do you think the relationship is good? It's great.
- [41:56]
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
- [41:56]
Rich Paul
I mean, how great? Yeah, it's great.
- [41:58]
Max Kellerman
It's great. From what I could tell, it's a great relationship.
- [42:01]
Rich Paul
How long did it take you to get to your seat?
- [42:04]
Max Kellerman
I'm basically beamed there like Star Trek.
- [42:06]
Rich Paul
Okay, fine.
- [42:07]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, okay. All right, so. But what I'm gonna say is this. As a kid watching the Lakers from afar, they were the envy of every fan of every team. Why can't my team be like that? And it's not like I was a kid in even Cleveland, which is a. You know, or were in New York. I was in New York City, a bigger market than la when the Nets were in Jersey. Really? New York had one team. The next 20 million fans in one market. And I was like, why is my team not being run like that when they got Shaq, even before you knew how great Kobe would be? I'm like, how did they wind up? I thought we won the lottery. You got Patrick Ewing. These dudes get Shaq, Shaq, base and Kobe to replace Kareem and Magic.
- [42:55]
Rich Paul
What?
- [42:56]
Max Kellerman
Just so the Lakers are fully aware, when The Lakers got LeBron and AD that's what it felt like to all the fans of the other teams. It feels unfair. That's what the complaint against the Lakers. It's like the Yankees, when they're going, well, it's like, man, this isn't fair. This is rigged. Of course, the Lakers. And the Lakers, through dealing with clutch clients, especially LeBron and AD won a championship. They have. They won. They didn't get to the conference finals. They won the championship. Yes. It was in the bubble. There were 20 teams in the bubble. One team won the championship. It was the one with LeBron and
- [43:40]
Rich Paul
A.D. and here's the other thing, and I'm not even being biased here. People talk about it being in the bubble, and you get all these pundits. We know the agendas. It's been working back in 2000, what, 10? When things changed on linear TV and you started having these. It was a little bit earlier, but you started having these debates, and it was okay to start to just tear somebody down because you're getting the views and you're getting the clicks. This is where we're at. So when you discredit or you try to discount the bubble, and you say it's a Mickey Mouse championship because it was played in Orlando, Florida, because that's the only place that could house and have the games. It was set up perfectly and could house all the teams. But yet. And still for Tom Brady, you don't say that. Anybody who won a chance.
- [44:32]
Max Kellerman
Why even take it there? Rich, it's really simple. There were 20 teams in the bubble. 20 teams?
- [44:36]
Rich Paul
Yeah.
- [44:36]
Max Kellerman
19 of them didn't win. One of them did win. They all had the same chance to win. It's the same thing. They all had the same chance.
- [44:42]
Rich Paul
But you and I both know if any other star would have won a championship, they would have been saying it's the hardest chance.
- [44:51]
Max Kellerman
Any other star, but certainly with LeBron, they like to take shots.
- [44:54]
Rich Paul
No, I'm saying the opposite way. Anybody but him.
- [44:57]
Max Kellerman
No. I don't know. There may be a couple others where it's like, man, they have a little. It feels like there's some. Something negative toward them.
- [45:04]
Rich Paul
Nobody. Not one person. That's not true. You cannot name one. Nobody.
- [45:10]
Max Kellerman
Maybe.
- [45:12]
Rich Paul
Nope. You take it too long.
- [45:16]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, you're right. The fact that you have to think. I concede the fact that. That's the point. The fact that I have to think that.
- [45:21]
Rich Paul
All right, look, we already know this, so. But let's move on because I gotta go to work.
- [45:24]
Max Kellerman
The Knicks.
- [45:26]
Rich Paul
Yes.
- [45:27]
Max Kellerman
Do you have any concern. Because I kind of do. That they're resting. Yep.
- [45:31]
Rich Paul
Yep.
- [45:31]
Max Kellerman
And I'll tell you why it is a concern. It's not just like, oh, it's ridiculous. Oh, you know, they get extra rest. But what has been amazing about them both ends of the floor is the chemistry and the rhythm, they're do like when you're hot like that, starting from the middle of that Hawk series and you're beating the brakes off everyone. Right. You want to keep that momentum and. Three days off. Okay. Four days off. Okay. Once you get to a week or a week plus, I do worry about it.
- [46:03]
Rich Paul
No, yeah, no, you have to worry about that. You have to try to somehow duplicate. You can't duplicate a game, so you can forget that. And then you don't want to run risk of someone getting hurt. I remember when the Cavs was. Had swept, I think Atlanta, and they had that big long time off. They, you know, they brought in DJ Mill and they had the diverture climbers. They kind of. That stuff kind of went viral trying to do whatever it took. It's. It's tough though now for the Knicks. OG's injured, so having that time off is actually helpful for, for them and
- [46:36]
Max Kellerman
him because OG is a fantastic player.
- [46:39]
Rich Paul
It's, you know, rhythm. They was in such a good flow. The guys were shooting the ball well. They was, they was, they was clicking on all cylinders. And so you don't want too much time off. You want enough time off so your body can heal, but you. You don't want too much time.
- [46:52]
Max Kellerman
Speaking of the Knicks, Rich, I believe the Knicks, if they can get out of the Eastern Conference, and I think they're favored, they should be favored to do so.
- [47:01]
Rich Paul
Okay.
- [47:02]
Max Kellerman
Far from.
- [47:03]
Rich Paul
I thought she was going somewhere else.
- [47:05]
Max Kellerman
I think that if the spurs come out of the west and there's a good chance of that, the Knicks match up well with the spurs because they can slow them down and they can hit shots late in the clock and they've, they've beaten them in. I know it's a regular season. I know they beat them in San Antonio. They beat them in New York and in the play and in, in the, in the. In season tournament.
- [47:24]
Rich Paul
Did Wimby play both games? All three games.
- [47:26]
Max Kellerman
And then season tournament. They beat them on a neutral site with something at stake. Right. Like guys play a little more intensely there and they have one loss to them too.
- [47:34]
Rich Paul
But I was at that game. The spurs was. Went very cold. But go ahead.
- [47:36]
Tom Dundon
They.
- [47:37]
Max Kellerman
But they, they, they slow them down and, and they hit shots late in the clock. I think they'd be the underdog. But they have a good chance against the Spurs. Thunder, I don't think they have a good chance.
- [47:47]
Rich Paul
So your Knicks, if they were able to get to the finals, you'd rather them play the spurs than the Thunder
- [47:51]
Max Kellerman
but let's say the Thunder come out and the Knicks come out and the Knicks get close, but either in the conference finals or the finals, they get stopped and there may be one player away. Could you think of any free agents this year who might maybe want to go to New York and maybe put a team like the Knicks over the top and win a championship?
- [48:12]
Rich Paul
No.
- [48:12]
Max Kellerman
In New York. Anyone come to mind at all?
- [48:15]
Rich Paul
Not one person. Max.
- [48:16]
Max Kellerman
I could think with someone.
- [48:17]
Rich Paul
Let's just.
- [48:17]
Max Kellerman
Let's go over the free agents. LeBron James. I can't believe this didn't occur to me. What do you think? Would you consider. Would you think that would be a good idea?
- [48:29]
Rich Paul
Max, you won't get me. I told you.
- [48:32]
Max Kellerman
Did you think at any point in LeBron's career he should play in New York?
- [48:34]
Rich Paul
I did. I did. That is a fact. Yes, yes. Just when you. When you talk about Brandon Brand. When you talk about just the fan. But that was. That was earlier on. Yeah, I did. I did at one point. Yeah.
- [48:48]
Max Kellerman
If LeBron could be additive to the Knicks. I think.
- [48:50]
Rich Paul
I mean, really. I think back on it. Oh, no. But you guys went in the lottery at that time. Was not in the lottery that year.
- [49:02]
Max Kellerman
Then there's Detroit, by the way, Detroit has some cap space too. Detroit. You said they should have made a move at the deadline.
- [49:08]
Rich Paul
Why are you talking about these teams?
- [49:10]
Max Kellerman
I haven't even said anything yet. You know, let me. Let me finish. Should Detroit sign LeBron?
- [49:16]
Rich Paul
This guy is crazy. This is what, Max, this is why. This is why I have to be very careful in doing a show with you. I just specifically told the audience and Max, the audience understands.
- [49:31]
Max Kellerman
Separate topic.
- [49:32]
Rich Paul
Okay, Separate.
- [49:32]
Max Kellerman
Steve Kerr signed a two year extension.
- [49:34]
Rich Paul
Kudos to Steve Kerr. He deserves it.
- [49:36]
Max Kellerman
So they're going to try and give Steph a shot to win another title with Draymond.
- [49:40]
Rich Paul
Yeah, yeah, that'd be great.
- [49:41]
Max Kellerman
And LeBron.
- [49:47]
Rich Paul
Max.
- [49:50]
Max Kellerman
Hey, we. There's one more thing I seriously do want to hit.
- [49:54]
Rich Paul
Yeah. Because I have to go to work.
- [49:55]
Max Kellerman
I know Draymond and Charles Barkley. I can get like. You know, I just. Because Draymond responded to it earlier in the week. We ran the interview with cancer.
- [50:01]
Rich Paul
They took it out of proportion with Draymond. But you can talk about it.
- [50:04]
Max Kellerman
Draymond was making a harmless joke on a great that he and Barkley have
- [50:08]
Rich Paul
done in the past.
- [50:08]
Max Kellerman
And I thought maybe he. He did it too dry or. Or else. Chuck.
- [50:14]
Rich Paul
New studio. New studio. That didn't really hear. Kenny didn't hear.
- [50:18]
Max Kellerman
Did you kind of left him he like it wasn't serious but Chuck's reaction was though it was serious and that started a whole.
- [50:24]
Rich Paul
But let's, let's bring Draymond on the show. We could talk to him about it.
- [50:26]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, good.
- [50:27]
Rich Paul
Let's do that. Yeah.
- [50:28]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, I thought, I thought they kind of left your man out to dry there for no good reason. It's a big night in the NBA with the spurs trying to close out the wolves and I've got you covered with my picks on FanDuel and all playoffs long. FanDuel has the best same game parlay pricing in the game. So if you're riding with your favorite players, make sure to head to fanduel. Okay, here I go. I'm going back to this. Well, everything went wrong last time when I did this. I'm going right back to its law of averages. Spurs are minus five and a half point favorites. They're on the road. I like them to cover. I think Wemby strikes me as the kind of guy who wants to put his foot on your throat when he's got you there. Minus five and a half points. Spurs cover on the road. I like Wemby to score over 25 points. I think it's going to be that kind of game for him. And in a closeout game at home, not on the injury report, 25 points. I like the over and then I'm looking at who else might contribute here. For the T Wolves. I owe over 10 points. I like it. The total gets you plus 5. 31. I think that is a conservative parlay. The bet will be live in the FanDuel app. Don't forget to check out the great offers. They'll have all playoffs as well. FanDuel play your game.
- [51:51]
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- [52:52]
Max Kellerman
Alright, this is what. This is what we're going to do Monday morning. I know it's a week late, but I'm going to weigh in on. On Draymond and Barkley a little more.
- [53:01]
Rich Paul
Okay.
- [53:02]
Max Kellerman
And also Miles Turner, what he had to say on his podcast.
- [53:05]
Tom Dundon
Okay.
- [53:06]
Max Kellerman
About Giannis.
- [53:07]
Rich Paul
Okay.
- [53:08]
Max Kellerman
But right now, Tom Dundon.
- [53:11]
Rich Paul
Tom Dundon. Yes, Max. Stop trying to get me caught up. You're never going to. I'm not going to do that. I have to try.
- [53:17]
Max Kellerman
It's in my contract.
- [53:18]
Rich Paul
You don't have. It's not your contract.
- [53:19]
Max Kellerman
It's in my contract.
- [53:20]
Rich Paul
We have to. We have the same contract. It's not in your contract.
- [53:23]
Max Kellerman
My contract?
- [53:23]
Rich Paul
No, it's not in your contract. I know what's in your contract is better than what's in my contract, but that's not in your contract.
- [53:28]
Max Kellerman
You just said we have the same contract, similar contract.
- [53:31]
Rich Paul
I said similar. I said similar, not same.
- [53:33]
Max Kellerman
All right, let's talk to Tom.
- [53:35]
Rich Paul
Let's talk to Tom. Yeah, he's waiting on us. Let's talk to Tom. Max, we have a very special guest today.
- [53:39]
Max Kellerman
We do. You arranged this whole thing.
- [53:41]
Rich Paul
I'm excited about it, too. We want to welcome Tom Dundon, governor of the Portland Trailblazers, as well as Carolina Hurricanes owner, major investor in topgolf.
- [53:54]
Max Kellerman
What does governor mean, as. Let's ask Tom.
- [53:57]
Rich Paul
Yeah.
- [53:58]
Max Kellerman
Tom, welcome to game over. What does governor mean? Like, you're the owner of the. By the way, congratulations on Carolina right now. But you're. You're the owner of the. Of the. Of Inca. Of the Hurricanes in the Eastern Conference in the NHL. What does Governor mean as far as it relates to the Trailblazers?
- [54:17]
Tom Dundon
First of all, good to be with you guys. So, yeah, I guess I don't know the owner, governor thing, what the right way to describe it is, but in our case in Portland, I've got other partners that, you know, I wouldn't have been able to do the deal if I didn't have partners. And ultimately it means that if we don't all agree, I would get to make the final decision, you know, but I would hope that. I would hope that it never comes to that.
- [54:45]
Max Kellerman
So why don't they just call you final boss?
- [54:47]
Rich Paul
No, I was going to say.
- [54:48]
Max Kellerman
That's what the kids say. Final boss.
- [54:49]
Rich Paul
I was going to say, Max, the governor has the last say, right? He has the final decision.
- [54:54]
Max Kellerman
The boss.
- [54:54]
Rich Paul
Because these, these franchises, let's just be honest, these franchises has gotten to a point to where they're so astronomically Valued that you have to have partners. But as you know, with anything in your own household, amongst your daughters, a decision won't get made if there's not a final decision. Someone has to have the final decision. And so, but, but Tom, I know we talked before. How is it, because your Hurricanes are fighting right now in the playoffs, how is it as an NHL owner and now an NBA owner, give us a little insight in terms of. Because I know Leonis has the same thing, just that juxtaposition. It has to be a different, just such a different approach to each season, how players are contracted, sponsorships, you know, all those different things that entails within the organization. Yeah.
- [55:54]
Tom Dundon
You know, there's more similarities than differences, for sure. You know, and I think Richie and I talked about this a little bit. You know, we're, you know, if you, if you go about anything in life, a company, a basketball team, your family, a hockey team, you're you. You have a certain work ethic, a certain amount of judgment and empathy. You need to. To go about sort of improving every day. And so I think those things kind of transcend whatever it is you're doing. The, you know, the specific differences might just be that Carolina, I went through this eight years ago. The franchise wasn't in great shape, and we were able to sort of put some of the standards in place that now we take for granted. And, you know, now the expectation is to win. We're in Portland, we're sort of at the beginning of that. Right. We've gotta, you know, try to try to move the culture a bit to where winning's expected and how we do things is. Whatever that standard is, it becomes cliche. You know, we've got to build to that, Tom.
- [56:58]
Max Kellerman
That's how owners are judged in professional sports or governors or whatever, you know, but team owners are judged that way. Right. If you have. So take Carolina, you get there, it's a bit of a mess. Fast forward till now and they're undefeated in the playoffs. They're on this amazing run. Right. So let's start with that. How do you feel about where the team is now? I imagine that you're sitting there at some level going, yeah, look, I took over and now it's not even a decade later and look where we are. How are you feeling about their success right now?
- [57:29]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, I mean, look, you want to be. I'm very appreciative of, you know, I hired a really good coach when I first got there. We've got good people that care. But, you know, Rich and I Talked about this also. The product is the players. The players are the stars. And people think just because they make a lot of money, you don't understand how hard their job is. Right. It's a, it's a hard thing to sacrifice every day of your life for the good of the team and trying to win. So the first thing for me in Carolina is I'm just so appreciative to be able to sort of be part of something where you're expected to win. And you know, those, that pressure is a privilege thing, right. Where you know you're really good, you know, everybody's bought in and you should be proud of that. Right? I think the players should be proud, the city should be proud, the organization should be proud. And that, that's just how I judge things. Is, is, you know, are we doing everything every day to be proud of? And in Carolina, I'm for sure proud of everybody.
- [58:33]
Max Kellerman
But let me just follow up with that because that's a great leader answer. That's. You sound like a quarterback of a team. You're like sharing the credit and success. But I mean, when I look at certain franchise, particularly when they have long term owners and people start and there hasn't been success and people start pointing to the coaches and the GMs and this and that, I'm like, oh, timeout. Fish rots from the head down, right? If it's been 30, 40 years and it's the same owner and that's the only consistent thing, at a certain point you have to say, dude, stop making you know it's you. But the reverse is true too. When there's good ownership, when a guy knows what he's doing, you know, over time tells. It always does. Over time it tells. So I'm asking you just personally what it means to you when you see that as a reflection of your leadership, right. How Carolina is doing now and what that means in terms of Blazers fans looking to the future.
- [59:35]
Tom Dundon
Look, that's probably been the hardest part of understanding sort of the first 90 days in basketball is everything I've ever done goes like this. Like, I know, I know the, the behaviors and the things I'm going to do every day are going to lead to success. It's not something I even question now. The way I do it might be different than the way each of you would do it, but I know the outcome is going to be, you know, above average. And so, yeah, the, the track record in Carolina, 100% I'm part of it. But I hired the best coach in the world very early on got criticized for who I hired. And, you know, he's got more wins than any coach in the modern era. The highest winning percentage since we hired him. So I get a little credit for hiring, but who really gets the credit, right? He's doing it every day. Like, I didn't know. Like, I couldn't be sure. So, yeah, I'm definitely proud of Carolina. I'm a little confused that all of a sudden there's a narrative that I might be the dumbest person in the world, but, you know, all I can do is go make the decisions every day to change that. Right. Like I tell my kids all the time, it's never your fault, but you're always there. So if I'm here in a situation where people are, you know, some people might focus more on what's going on in Portland versus Carolina, then, you know, I got to go change that.
- [61:00]
Rich Paul
Yeah, you. You sit in the seat. So we understand that. Tom, you and I, we. We just met in person at the. At the NBA combine. Is your first NBA combine. Obviously, there's no NHL combine, right? Is there a combine in NHL? How do you guys.
- [61:17]
Tom Dundon
There is. I've never been.
- [61:18]
Rich Paul
Oh, but you've never been. What was your. What was your reaction or experience this year at the NBA combine? It's a highly touted draft, and obviously now we do it a little bit different than what it was before, because prior to many years ago, I would never even send my players into the combine. I would show up for the team meetings like you and I just had, but I wouldn't send the players. Now they kind of force us to send the players. They kind of force us to do the medical there. But what was your experience at your first combine?
- [61:51]
Tom Dundon
I just went to see it and meet people. So I. My philosophy on a lot of these things is that these players have a lot of. They've played a lot. So there's data and, you know, tape or video on all the players. So I'm not sure how much value there is in some of these things. You know, to me, it's a bit performative at that point. And I really worry that, you know, someone's going to make a decision about something that happens in a couple hours over the couple years of. Of. Of experience that player has. So I don't love the. I don't like the idea of the interviews and, you know, watching workouts. You know, I prefer that the scouts focus on can they play, and if they can play, don't worry about their handshake. Or how tall they are or how long their arms are, worry about their actual talent.
- [62:45]
Rich Paul
And what should, what should. That's. That's great because it leads me to this. Oftentimes people get so fixated on someone, they thought since the beginning of the season they're stuck on that guy. And this is the guy. This is the guy. But we've seen guys like a Devin Booker go late in the lottery or a giannis Antokupo go 15, Kawhi Leonard went 15, Jokic went 47, Tyrese Maxey goes 21. We've seen guys go later in the draft that you can't make up for these misses. Like if you miss on a Damian Lillard, if you do the redraft, he still goes. He probably goes two in that draft because AD went one. But what, but what that miss does for your franchise, that's a big miss. It's hard to get past that. I look at owners or governors in this sense talking about the NBA when I evaluate a governor, the question I always ask is, are they willing to pay the tax? Are they willing to pay the repeater tax to keep the team good if I have a cornerstone guy on that team? Because that's extremely important in this case. Now we have the second apron and the mechanisms of trades and things like that has become very, very complicated. And basically we're at a hard cap. How are you approaching that as your team starts to take on some real excitement? You end the year on a high note with everything that transpired throughout the course of the season. You got a guy like Denny who when he was in Washington, no one thought he would become what he has became in Portland. You got guys like Holiday and Lillard coming back school, Henderson's on the rise. So there's been, you know, Shady Sharp was in our lineup, but he's still a really good young talent. There's a lot there to unpack with the Blazers. How exciting is that for you? How are you approaching that? I know there's some things to be done from a coaching perspective, et cetera, but how are you approaching that and what's your thought process on us basically having this hard cap and are you willing and open minded for there to be some type of amendment to address this second apron situation? Because it's complicated for all governors. I can imagine.
- [65:08]
Tom Dundon
Yes, there's a lot there on the drafting, unfortunately, in every sport, every year, people. The redraft in five years and 10 years is going to look different. No matter how talented your scouts are, how much diligence you do.
- [65:25]
Rich Paul
The Blazers did pass on Michael Jordan, so. But you didn't know.
- [65:28]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, that's a hard one to make up for. But I always, I don't, I never scout players. Like, I don't think I can watch a player. I mean, I could see LeBron when he was 25 and know that that's, that's pretty good, right? Like, we can all do that. But what I try to do on the scouting side is just when I think they're falling in love with a player is try to push. Like, let's just assume they're not there. Let's assume you just can't pick them. What would you do just because you're right? It does happen where, where for whatever reason, you know, the group locks in on something that might be right, might be wrong. But I'll always try to sort of push back when I think there's an emotional attachment early. And by the way, a couple times in hockey, I pushed back. They didn't give. And we ended up with, we ended up with really good players because they didn't sort of give to my, my nonsense.
- [66:24]
Rich Paul
Kudos to you for allowing to do their job, though, because it happens.
- [66:27]
Tom Dundon
Like, yeah, you gotta, I think you gotta challenge it, but they get to pick. Like, I'm not picking, right. But look on the. Joe called me and I don't even know if it was allowed, but he called me at the trade deadline, which technically I didn't know. We didn't own the team yet. And he had a deal, actually two different deals, but one in particular where we would have gone into the tax and it would have been whatever $20 million. And, you know, it was, I was fine with it. I'm like, I want to run the business properly, but I want to win more than I want to make money. And I, that seems kind of obvious if you're in this business, right, Winning's the only reason you do it. Why would you buy a team? And so obviously there's a lot of lot comes with staying in that tax in the NBA, right, They've made the rules in a way that, that it's complicated. But to go in strategically because you can pick up a young player or have a chance to win, I gotta believe, well, I would def. We would definitely do it. And I, I gotta think most people would. I, I, I don't know many owners that wouldn't do that. And I don't think we would operate any differently. I hope we're in a position where going in the tax means we have a chance to win, and if we have a chance to win, the tax is irrelevant.
- [67:47]
Max Kellerman
Tom, I was super interested in talking to you and because we're on the subject that interests me. There's been a lot written about you, especially recently, calling you cheap and because there were support staff and such that wasn't traveling with the team or two way players that weren't traveling with the team in the playoffs and all this. But the reason I bring it up, it's the elephant in the room. But the reason I bring it up is because even in the articles that were bringing up the accusations that you were cheap, in fact, the point they seem to be making is that you were efficient, that you weren't afraid to spend money, but you wanted to do so efficiently. And the reason I want to pick your brain about that, if that's true, is because usually it doesn't actually work like that. In sports. You have cheap owners who won't spend on the tax or the repeater tax. I mean, historically, and this goes on every, in every sport who want to try and cut corners. And the fans hate those owners because they're uncompetitive, right? If you own a sports team, yes, you build the equity in the team and it's a winning proposition. And maybe you're in the black in terms of the money, but generally, people who own them are competitive people. They're fans first, just like the fans are. You know, they were once upon a time just fans. And they're competitive. And the fans want to see that the guy who owns the team is like them. They're competitive, they want to win. So usually if you have a cheap owner, they're cheap across the board. And usually if you have an owner who's willing to spend, that comes from a kind of not just competitiveness, but spirit of generosity. They spend on all the accoutrements and all the extra things for the team. And they wanted, you know, Dr. Jerry Buss was like this, George Steinbrenner was like this. And they're willing. And the masseuse and the whole thing, you are an outlier here, it seems to me. You're willing to spend the tax, you're competitive, you want to win. You just said you want to win more than you want to make money in terms of being an owner or a governor. And yet it was reported that you saved, you calculated that you can save a million dollars that can go elsewhere by not sending the support staff or whatever, or two way players to the playoffs. So that said, correct me if any of that's wrong. And please can you get into that philosophy a bit?
- [70:04]
Tom Dundon
Yeah. So I mean, actually I'm going to use what you said because I hadn't thought about it like that. That, that, that's what's confusing is, you know, like my hockey team's been over the cap many times. They were the lowest in the league. They were at the floor when I bought them. You can go over the cap in hockey. If you have a hurt player, you can replace them. So I've been over the cap multiple times because there was a rule that allowed you to go over the cap. And at the same time, when I walk out of a room, I turn off the lights and so that my friends make fun of me all the time. They tell me how bad I am at being, at being rich. And I just don't want to waste money. I want to invest it. I'll have as many masseuse, I'll have the best food. We're going to take care of the players because it helps you win. It's, it's part of the deal. Some of the stuff about how we're going to run the business, you know, Portland, Portland spends 100 million more dollars a year on their business than the Hurricanes do. Not including players. The Hurricanes since I bought the team of the first or second best record in the league. So I, I'm just not going to waste $100 million just because somebody wants to write our article calling me cheap. It's not, I'm just not going to do it. And so it's hard because I don't think about a budget when it comes to the playing team and how to make sure we win. Some of the stuff that that was blamed on money is actually not 100% true that I thought about the money like on traveling players. You know, I just made a mistake. I just don't understand the league. In hockey, we don't travel extra people because it's, we're not on vacation. We're here to win. So we don't want the distraction. The NBA seems to live with those distractions. It's not how I think about it. So you sort of got to learn, you know, what's the differences between the two leagues and you know, the, the hotel story with the staff is an interesting story I think because normally when you, when you travel you get late checkout, right? In this case in sports, it's usually like 5% and never comes up. We went because it was last minute going to Phoenix. There was no hotels. I guess Phoenix In March is pretty popular place, so had trouble getting hotels. And the hotel really wanted us to be out early because they needed the rooms. And so they want us to pay for a second night. And so we did that for the coaches and the players, but we got them to let us leave at 1:00'. Clock. And I had a room at the hotel. I was there. So I'm like, lunch starts at 1:45. We have a huge ballroom with this really nice lunch for everybody. So I said, look, we'll do the players and the coaches will stay. We'll pay the extra night for the staff. We've got this big ballroom with food. We'll go down there and work. And everyone was down there. I was down there. Actually learned a lot during that hour because I got to talk to some of the training staff, et cetera. Like, I would do it again. I think it's actually pretty stupid to think that people who are there to work, who are being fed and 45 minutes later, they weren't in the lobby, they brought their bags down in the room right by where the bus was, right next to my bag, and we sat down there and talked about. And, you know, if that's too hard for people, I'm not right for them. You know, like, I want that culture.
- [73:28]
Max Kellerman
Tom, that's, that's. That's a super interesting answer to me. And I don't mean to sound like your PR guy here, but I want to. I want to. But like, I. And my disposition toward you would be different if you took over Carolina. There were reports that you were cheap and Carolina stunk right now. Right. But like, because in. In America, especially if you win, people like you. But it seems to me what you're saying, and again, correct me if I'm wrong, is that what. Because usually people who are just generous are they like to rationalize why they're generous. Well, it's good for business because you're seen as a sucker if you're not. But generally, no, they're just generous people. And so that spills out everywhere. And people who are cheap, the same thing. Right. It seems to me that you're saying that what animates your behavior, what animates you, is winning. And so the part of the efficiency, or what other people would say is cheapness, is that. That's not what's guiding your decisions. What's guiding your decisions is how do I win? Is that a fair statement to make?
- [74:34]
Tom Dundon
The great way to say it. Yeah. It's all I think about. And all this other stuff I think about being efficient, you know, like I'm worried about parking spaces and getting in and out of lines and all I think about is our fans want to come in and how do I get them in quicker. And you know, so I spend a lot of time on things that maybe other people don't think about. It drives me crazy if I see, you know, the wrong trash cans, if, you know, I have. In Carolina, they've worked with us to change the lights so people can get out of the arena quicker. And so unfortunately I can't turn that off. Right. I. All the things that sort of make me successful are things sometimes I wish I could turn off because they become, you know, these little things that everybody doesn't understand. And like I make people, if they're going to print something, print on both sides of the paper. It's so stupid. But I can't help myself if I get. Portland sent me some decks and they're so thick and you got to go through them. And then, you know, I told them, hey, look, if you're going to send me stuff. So the next thing they send me, they're double sided printing. And you know, it's a smaller piece, it fits in my backpack. We didn't waste whatever you waste doing it. I've got a lot of money, I can afford to waste paper, but I'm not going to do it. And so it works in my favor most of the time. But in these situations, you know, sometimes I, sometimes I probably pick on some things that I should have just let go and hopefully I can learn from it and fix it.
- [75:59]
Rich Paul
But I don't, I don't, I don't think you should tomorrow. And here's what I hear in your conversation. Here's what I got from you. Cause like I said, when we met with you at the combine, when you walked out the room, everyone from my team said, we really like that guy. It was my first time meeting him. But I talk about this all the time. You're gonna get me in trouble with the double paper on the print, first of all. But secondly, when you own a business, when you scale a business, when you have, you know, staff and things like that, these things actually do matter. And there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a psychology here to say I'm not doing something just because I can. Checking out at 1 o', clock, if lunch is at 1:45, making the decision to, to stay up, pay for an extra night, that we're not going to be there anyway.
- [76:50]
Max Kellerman
It's wasteful, and it'll spill over to everything.
- [76:53]
Rich Paul
It spills over to every three. And so when you're trying to build and what I think you're trying to build in a championship organization, building a championship organization doesn't just come with rolling out the red carpet when it's convenient or when it's rewarding for you. When you're trying to get something, the details that goes within building an organization, the details that goes within operating the organization, the culture that you're trying to implement, the thought process, all these little things that Tom is talking about is actually how you build the champion within the organization as you try to build a championship organization as it pertains to wins. But the champion of a thoughtful mindset is what you're doing when you are being very particular about these things. Now, I imagine if we got three games in four nights and. And we end in Miami and the guys want to take an extra night before we fly back, five hours back to Portland, you may see that as justifiable and say, you know what? It makes sense versus flying all the way through the night. Guys get in, whatever the case may be. That's a different dynamic.
- [78:06]
Max Kellerman
Super. It's super interesting, Tom and Rich, because, like, I think about this with certain people. My Zeta, my grandfather, right, was like this Teddy Atlas. I think about the famed boxing trainer I worked with. There's some people who have done things a certain way their whole life. They always show up a half hour early, whatever it is. And sometimes people try to say. They try to pick a certain piece of behavior and say, well, if only they would do this differently. But it's like if that piece of behavior that you're asking them to change is in conflict with their philosophy that they've lived by for their entire life, that's impossible. They're not gonna do something that's out of. That's against their character. And it's hard to tell them to, especially Tom, someone like you, who's made literally billions of dollars for someone to come around and say, hey, this one little thing you did, you should do this differently. Yes, but that's not who I am. I do things this way, and it's led to that success. Tough to tell. I imagine for you, Tom, it's tough to tough to even integrate that and think, yeah, maybe I should have done that differently. If that's not who you are, I
- [79:12]
Tom Dundon
wish I could be different in certain things. You know, I. There are, like, all of us. You have to be reflective and, you know, but you're right. I. I just know a certain way, and I don't know if it's because of the way I was brought up or, you know, I don't know. Maybe. Maybe there's. Maybe the team psychologist can come tell me why I'm like this, but I agree with you. It just. It just seems so obvious to me that you should do it this way. And then sometimes like. Like this T shirt thing wasn't trying to save money. I just kind of thought T shirts were kind of silly.
- [79:42]
Max Kellerman
The T shirt thing is when you got there, the T shirts for the fans were laid out on the seats. Right. And you got rid of that?
- [79:48]
Tom Dundon
No.
- [79:48]
Max Kellerman
What is it?
- [79:49]
Tom Dundon
No, what happened was they called me. We made the play in game and. Or made the playoffs. And they called and said I was a playing game. I think. I don't know. Maybe the playoffs. They said, hey, do you want to do T shirts? And I'm like, no, let's do towels. That was that long of a conversation. Because in Carolina we do towels and it's awesome. Like the arenas. They're all waving them. Well, I got to the Portland game. No one waved any towels. So we tried to get T shirts for the next game. I didn't know T shirts were such a thing because I hadn't thought about the fact that in hockey we've got jerseys. Everybody wants to wear their jersey, and so they don't want T shirts because they got their jerseys.
- [80:28]
Rich Paul
Right. But in basketball, across my mind, yeah, they want to wear a T shirt. The T shirt is the jersey for the. For the. The. The. The Spectator.
- [80:37]
Max Kellerman
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- [81:20]
Rich Paul
Tom, I want to ask you because it's. It's very precious of an asset that you bought in the Portland trailblazers, there's only 30 NBA teams. You happen to buy a team that outside of the Portland Rose, in which a company that I, I, I co founded did the creative at the Portland Rose. And we can help you at the Portland Trailblazers. We'll talk about that another time.
- [81:43]
Max Kellerman
But, but you better be efficient, Rich.
- [81:45]
Rich Paul
It's called adopt and we're in Portland. But nevertheless, you buy the Trailblazers. The Trailblazers. A man who sold jerseys out the trunk of his car. When I think about the Trailblazers, I always think about the jerseys where it's down the side, had the big stripe across the top. There was Drexler. You had the Bill Walton. I had the Bill Walton, which was great. And now you have this, this very, I would say, premium asset. But now you got to think about it from a business perspective because, you know, there's speculation out there that you may want to move the team and things like that. And then when you talk about the expansion of teams, give us some insight on where you are with some of those things. In terms of when you buy a team, it's in a city like Portland. It's again, no disrespect to the roads, but it's the one thing that everyone grew up loving. Every shoe company there, executives have season tickets. It's all about the Blazers. And then on top of that, you have this expansion. How are you thinking about those two things?
- [82:52]
Tom Dundon
Well, first of all, the Rose is awesome, by the way. I really like that logo.
- [82:56]
Rich Paul
Thank you.
- [82:58]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, I mean, when I bought the Hurricanes, all I heard was because I was from Texas, we were going to move the team to Houston. You know, moving to teams, difficult. People were up, loving the team.
- [83:08]
Rich Paul
How would that work? Well, I guess you could move 4 million.
- [83:11]
Tom Dundon
There's no hockey team in Houston.
- [83:12]
Rich Paul
Oh, you bought the Hurricanes. Sorry. Yeah, I missed, Sorry. Yeah, I misheard you there.
- [83:17]
Tom Dundon
And so, you know, we didn't move the Hurricanes. We ended up getting a deal done and we went through the same thing in Portland. I, you know, when, before I even bought the team, I had an agreement with the city and the state. We had an agreement in principle. They've already approved half of it. You know, assuming that all gets done, then this is a non story. So, you know, for me, it's never been really a thing. You know, you didn't buy the team to move it. We bought the Portland Trailblazers.
- [83:46]
Rich Paul
But if you have to, if you're not getting the support from the city or the state, you know, it puts you in a tough spot. Right?
- [83:55]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, I mean, we would deal with that if it ever comes up, but hopefully it does we have to solve problems. When we have problems today, today the problem we're trying to solve is just to get a lease extension and get the, get the, get the building renovated. And those are fun things to do, right? Yeah, absolutely. Making the building better and adding some energy to that buildings. Those are things I enjoy doing.
- [84:19]
Max Kellerman
Tom, how did you respond? Like, okay, so as, as, like the only person in the national media, I've been in the national media for a long time, who picked the 04 Pistons not only to beat the Lakers, but to sweep the Lakers. Because that series with Indiana I thought was the greatest defensive display I'd ever seen in any sport, from any series in the playoffs, both teams. And then I looked at the Lakers and I thought, they can't beat that defense. It's the best defense I've ever seen in my life. And Chauncey Billups was the leader of that team. Mr. Billy Big Shot. And everyone loves Chauncey and Chauncey. Chauncey. I'll get Chauncey Will hit me on the text before fights. He, he's a big fight fan. Terence Crawford fan. We've been, you know, back and forth and when that news came out, I was like, oh, come, you know, don't tell me this is going on. How did you react, Tom, when you heard the news since you say that about Chauncey?
- [85:11]
Tom Dundon
Because all I ever heard was the same thing. And then I met him. Know, I went, I met him that day or the day before. So I came up for the game, the first game. The, the, the owners of the trailers invited me to en. To go to the first game with them. And you could see it, right? When you shake this guy's hand, you could feel it, right. He's got a presence. All I ever heard was great things about him. And then the next morning I wake up and, and all that happened. So obviously it's terrible situation. I, I hope it all works out. But it was a little, you know, I didn't know what to do. Right. Like I didn't own the team. And you have this great guy that everybody loves that, you know, a day ago you're, you're like, oh, this is going to be a great guy to work with. And then that happened. So it was, it was, it was different for sure, but, you know, wasn't my team at the time, so I didn't really know what to do.
- [86:01]
Max Kellerman
Right, Right.
- [86:04]
Rich Paul
Yeah, it's hard, it's hard. It's hard to find a better guy than Chauncey, you know, it's Like a. Like, it just is. I don't care.
- [86:09]
Max Kellerman
I want anything bad that I hear in the news not to be true about him.
- [86:12]
Rich Paul
Me too.
- [86:13]
Max Kellerman
And then. And then whatever is bad, that is true, I want it to be mitigated as much as possible. I mean, like, you know, there's just no way to deal with him and not be rooting for him.
- [86:21]
Rich Paul
No. Yeah. You have to root for Chauncey. And I'm praying everything works out. Like, you know, just Johnson and I have just unbelievable relationship. I still check up on him every. Every now and then. So I'm hoping everything works out there.
- [86:34]
Max Kellerman
Tom, you gotta do more media, man. Because there's so much negative press about you. Yeah, I find it very difficult. Like, so what that tells me is there's someone. There's someone who's talking to media, maybe on support staff, or someone who felt put off by the fact that they had to check out at 1:00 clock or whatever that is, who must be talking to reporters. Like, where is all this coming from?
- [86:57]
Rich Paul
I don't know, but to.
- [86:59]
Max Kellerman
Unless you're suckering me. Unless you're actually a really awful guy and you just put. And I'm just being suckered by your charm right now.
- [87:06]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, well, no one's ever called me charming. And look, this is what's always confusing is I've got a wife, five kids,
- [87:15]
Rich Paul
tough crowd with some kids. Coach of the Hurricanes, Tom was telling me, like, he bought two teams. His kids, like, oh, you couldn't get this team, so then he bought that team. It's like, oh, you could do this. He has a tough crowd.
- [87:26]
Max Kellerman
Now, that's strange to me because I imagine that, Tom, you're raising your kids without a huge sense of entitlement. Or maybe there's no way. When you're worth billions, there's no way to raise them without a sense of entitlement. What's going on there, Tom? Why are your kids not like, oh, my God, you got another sports franchise? I would imagine they have to make their beds first thing, and they have to mow the lawn and do the chores. Or is that not what's going on?
- [87:53]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, so when I get. When I get crushed in the media lately, like you mentioned. Yeah, I get, you know, they'll send me the mems or whatever they call memes. Yeah, memes. And. But yeah, we, you know, my daughters, my. My two teenage daughters. And they can't understand why they can't have more stuff.
- [88:12]
Max Kellerman
Right.
- [88:13]
Tom Dundon
You know, like. Like they feel like that's not right. But Yeah, a little bit.
- [88:19]
Rich Paul
Yeah.
- [88:20]
Tom Dundon
Like my daughter got a job at Starbucks in the summer so she could buy one of those fancy purses because I just not going to do that. But, but yeah, there, look, there's no. They live in this world, they didn't ask for it, you know, so they're. I'm not saying they're sheltered, but yeah, I'm, I'm really worried about them being entitled and not having something that they love and can call their own. You know, I'm not looking for them to be like me. I got to figure out what can they do that they love and be great at. The difference is I needed to love and be good at something that made money because I needed money. They just need to find something they love and they can be, you know, that they can be great at. It doesn't matter if it comes with money.
- [89:02]
Max Kellerman
It's hard. I have teenage daughters too, and it is. And I'm not, I'm not either one of you guys actually. But I've done fine and done great in my position, in my, I'm thinking like there's just no way around it. There's a different level of hunger if before you've made it, you know, and the kids of people who have made it to one degree or another, that's the big question for their parents. And I know it's like, wah, you know, like no one feels sorry, but it is a real thing when you're raising kids. It's a real thing.
- [89:34]
Rich Paul
Yeah. Look, I think for me, and look, I've been blessed. My kids grew up in Cleveland pretty much for the most part. So their foundation came from the Midwest. The Midwest is a great place to raise a family. Not too much accessible and there's just blue collar, you know, hard working type of mentality. And obviously I came from that. But then there is a part to where they did have what was accessible for them, was accessible at the highest level. So I went through my daughter being young and wanting to go to the Beyonce concert. Well, obviously, you know, I can and
- [90:12]
Max Kellerman
you do want to give them some access to the things in their children.
- [90:15]
Rich Paul
But what happens is four tickets turn to eight, eight tickets turn to 12. And the biggest thing I had to do was help my kids understand that yes, these are dad's friends, but also dad has to be respectful to his friends because this is their job too. So if you're, if a concert's coming in town, of course I can call Beyonce and get tickets or you know, it wouldn't necessarily be her but who's handling the things. And of course you can see be after the show or whether it was Drake or anybody else. But we have to manage that because I always want to be respectful of the relationship that I have. And so that was the thing.
- [90:57]
Max Kellerman
Tom, you're dealing with another level. Like if you're the child of a billionaire. I remember this HBO show about the, I think it was the grandchildren of like the titans of the Gilded Age almost, right? Like you're talking or in the early, before the stock market crash, in the twenties, in the teens. These are like people who, back then, it's the equivalent of billionaires, the titans of industry. And when you heard their grandkids talk like everything that was hard about them, that was ambitious about them, that was even ruthless about them in ways you might not like, that was smart about them and all that stuff, there was no evidence of it in their grandkids. Like they'd be spinning in their graves if they saw what had happened to their lineage in two generations. Right. That's the thing that if you're a billionaire, I imagine is that on your mind at all times. Like I imagine it would be on mind. On my mind.
- [91:51]
Tom Dundon
Yeah, it's all the time. Like I, I, I'm so worried about it because the, like I say, they didn't ask for this, right? And so I tell my kids all the time, this, this is my money than yours. Like I'm gonna give it away. Like you gotta do what you got to do.
- [92:08]
Max Kellerman
You're not really gonna give it away, right? You're not really.
- [92:10]
Rich Paul
No, listen, I've heard it depends on their character.
- [92:13]
Tom Dundon
Like I've got a 24 year old, it's the greatest kid ever. We're good, we're gonna, he's not, he'll do whatever he's, whatever he needs to do every day. Doesn't waste my money. Doesn't. I mean he, I hope he's generous with his friends and picks up dinner and those kind of things, but he's not, he's not frivolous. You know, he had a flight home one time from vacation and they offered, hey, you can get 800 of credits if you wait two hours. And he takes the 800 bucks and he's so proud of himself, right? Like, and so I special kid, I'm not worried about him. But I got four more and I gotta, I gotta see how these younger
- [92:52]
Rich Paul
ones, it gets a little harder. But I got one more for you. Tom. I'm gonna let you get outta here. I gotta ask you Pick your business brain. When you saw topgolf, what'd you think? What made you.
- [93:04]
Max Kellerman
It's a winner.
- [93:05]
Rich Paul
Invest at the level that you invested.
- [93:08]
Max Kellerman
Topgolf and pickleball.
- [93:09]
Rich Paul
And how has that been for you? Well, yeah, I can say pickleball probably went up a 2, 3x, I think. I don't know. I could be wrong, but pickleball.
- [93:19]
Tom Dundon
Pickleball is more of like a much better investment. But yeah. So what happened with topgolf is I, they had like one of the first top golf shows in Dallas, and it was like a family fun center. And my, my 24 year old was like 10, and they have a birthday party and this place is, I mean, the food's terrible, the bathrooms are dirty, and there's people everywhere. And I was like, wow, this is interesting stuff. And then not too long after, a friend of mine calls me and says, hey, this TopGolf, my buddy's CEO, the guy who was CEO was the, was the CEO or president of the Arena Football League back, back in the day. And one of the members of the Jones family, our kids grew up together, he was like, hey, I know this guy. Will you meet with him? I met with him and told him what I would be willing to do just because I thought it would be fun. Right. I literally just thought, I like golf. I'd love for my kids to like golf. It's down the street. Maybe it'd be an interesting way to learn stuff about building a business. It was pretty small at the time. They didn't take my deal. And then they called back six months later, and now they needed me. And I like that. And so that was it. I just did it for fun. Just thought it'd be something to do with my kids. And down Camille. I, I, I kept it for a long time.
- [94:40]
Max Kellerman
Tom Dundon, man, you got to do more media, brother.
- [94:43]
Rich Paul
He doesn't.
- [94:44]
Max Kellerman
You got to do more media.
- [94:45]
Rich Paul
Tom got a big job in front of him. He got to hire a coach. Yeah, Tom, I lied to you. I got one more. The data. No, but, but I want to ask him this. When you, when you bought the team, he has Hanson Yang on the team.
- [94:59]
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
- [95:00]
Rich Paul
What has been the, the rise in the audience, the data viewership from the China market now that you have Hanson on your team because his views at summer league rival game seven of the
- [95:16]
Max Kellerman
finals got a billion, two billion, three, whatever.
- [95:18]
Rich Paul
How do you, and how do you maximize that?
- [95:22]
Tom Dundon
You know, it's, it's interesting because, yeah, it peaked so high and then he didn't play that Much and well, you got to play it consistent to what we've talked about. About. I'm not doing that. Like. Like, I'm not playing.
- [95:33]
Max Kellerman
We represent him.
- [95:34]
Rich Paul
So I'm saying you got to play him, but go ahead. Sorry.
- [95:36]
Tom Dundon
If he earns it, he'll play. Like, of course. I'm not stupid.
- [95:39]
Max Kellerman
Right.
- [95:39]
Tom Dundon
It'd be great if he was good, but, you know, the. And I hope he will be good.
- [95:44]
Max Kellerman
The.
- [95:44]
Tom Dundon
The guys in Portland are very confident in this. You know, I've only seen a little bit and. And so you've seen what I've seen and early.
- [95:53]
Rich Paul
But with a guy of that size, like all big, all young bigs coming into the league that hadn't played for a long time, the thing that they have to get better at is the speed of the game. It takes them a little while. Lateral movement. And so Hansen has a. He has a. The one thing he does have because he played professional, he has a great feel for the game. And so when you guys took him 16, really was a shock of the draft, but he has a great feel for the game. He's the nicest guy in the world. I mean, gentle giant. I. So I. I'm confident in him as well. I think. I think he will get it. But it takes. Look it.
- [96:28]
Max Kellerman
This is the big advantage. Tom that Clutch has is Rich is looking at the game like a. Like a. Like a team president or a gm. He, you know, but. But as an agent, but. But sees it as though he's a coach.
- [96:40]
Rich Paul
Yeah.
- [96:40]
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
- [96:41]
Tom Dundon
Well, I'm, I'm. I'm with you. We're rooting for him. I hear he's a great guy. He clearly has talent. Right. All these guys have talent. Now. It is just, you know, how far can he take it?
- [96:51]
Rich Paul
Yeah, the talent. I think, like we talked about this, the care has to come with the talent. As you. As you get higher up the ranks in anything you do, you have to take the care with you. And that's what separates these guys at the NBA level. You see the guys that care more than anything else, Those are the guys that become champions. It really is. And that if I was running a team and I'm evaluating talent as much as I'm looking at the skill set and things like that, I really want to know how much you care. Every step of the way. I'm monitoring. There should be a care tracker for each team, and I'm monitoring how much you care. And you know, how. You know, by things that Tom talked about that he's meticulous about A guy coming in, shaking somebody's hand that parked the car, how they treat them, how they show up in the film session, how long they stay. I'll have a tracker. How long? When practice ends, how long do you stay in the facility? And while you there, are you dueling on your phone or are you actually having productive after hours in the practice facility? I want to know these things because I'm tracking. And when I'm. We should have this. And I'm tracking guys in free agency like this at the combine, Buck Showalter
- [98:09]
Max Kellerman
used to do with the Yankees and later on, you know he's mad at you.
- [98:12]
Rich Paul
These things are important.
- [98:12]
Max Kellerman
Find out how he treats the parking lot attendant, all that kind of stuff.
- [98:15]
Rich Paul
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But, Tom, we can't thank you enough, man. This was just one of those things where we met, we talked, we was having a great conversation. I asked you to come on. You was nice enough to do so. You are the first governor and owner of multiple sports franchises to. To embrace us on the show. So we can't thank you enough.
- [98:36]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, great, great. Really great talking to you.
- [98:39]
Rich Paul
Yeah, right.
- [98:40]
Tom Dundon
Thanks, Max. Thanks. Appreciate it, Rich.
- [98:42]
Rich Paul
Thank you. No problem.
- [98:43]
Tom Dundon
See you guys.
- [98:44]
Rich Paul
See?
- [98:44]
Tom Dundon
Thank you.
- [98:45]
Max Kellerman
Tom Dunn, ladies and gentlemen.
- [98:46]
Rich Paul
Tom Dunn.
- [98:46]
Max Kellerman
I mean, for the. For the amount of. If you read the press on him, it's like they, they kind of. They give him credit for being efficient for. But the amount of negative stuff versus the positive stuff is out of whack. To the extent. In terms of the success he's had with the Hurricanes.
- [99:07]
Rich Paul
Yes.
- [99:07]
Max Kellerman
And in terms of the personality, it's not reflected in the coverage.
- [99:12]
Rich Paul
Listen, anytime a man says, I want to win more than I make money, I'm rolling with that guy.
- [99:19]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, for sure.
- [99:19]
Rich Paul
I'm rolling with that guy.
- [99:20]
Max Kellerman
Because teams are seen as public trusts. They're not seen as the personal property of the owners. Fans see those teams as public trust. And the best owners, like Dr. Jerry Buss, late greatest owner, to me, history of American team sports, I don't think it's close, but he would articulate that publicly all the time. The Lakers are a public trust. I'm the steward of this public trust. And it was a family business. They needed to make a profit. He wasn't some giant corporation. But those are the kind of team owners, or governors, whatever you want to call them in the NBA, that the fans embrace.
- [99:55]
Rich Paul
Yeah. What that says to me is that he's evaluating who actually he can lose with, because that's what really makes the difference. You can win with anybody, but who can I lose with?
- [100:11]
Max Kellerman
And so he's. Tell me more about that.
- [100:13]
Rich Paul
He seems like the type of guy that you can. You'll be willing to lose with because he. He wants to win so much that he.
- [100:20]
Max Kellerman
He's. That's rich. That is fucking interesting.
- [100:23]
Rich Paul
Yeah, he's like, I want to win more than I want to make the money.
- [100:27]
Max Kellerman
Right?
- [100:27]
Rich Paul
So what that says to me is he's the type of guy that you can actually lose.
- [100:32]
Max Kellerman
And that buys equity with the fans. Like, if you're a Lakers fan, and especially when Dr. Buss was alive, if they hit a dry patch of three or four, five years and you're a Lakers fan, man, you got a lot of nerve complaining, right? Because you see the track record, you see what they're trying to do. Whatever. Now if you're the fan of a franchise who. You know.
- [100:54]
Rich Paul
But you can't take that for granted though. Max, what's that, what you just said?
- [100:58]
Max Kellerman
Like, if. If you're rooting for a Donald Sterling team and years go by and they're not winning and you're not.
- [101:03]
Rich Paul
Tried to win, huh? He never tried to win. That's the point.
- [101:07]
Max Kellerman
That's the point. So the idea that Tom talked about really was. That's. Is what animates his behavior is competitiveness. He wants to win.
- [101:18]
Rich Paul
Yeah, he wants to win. Yeah. It was great. It's great to have him do a wrap for the like. All right, guys, because this will be the end of the. Okay, okay, Max. Yo, game over@Spotify.com.
- [101:32]
Max Kellerman
max Kellerman. Rich. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. By the way, we have.
- [101:36]
Rich Paul
Hold on.
- [101:37]
Max Kellerman
What's the number, Rich? What's the number for voicemails?
- [101:39]
Rich Paul
Oh, man, I forgot it. Max, I.
- [101:41]
Max Kellerman
Can you believe you have been talking this mess about how, you know, I know it's memorized? You know, I don't have it memorized.
- [101:49]
Rich Paul
I'm gonna tell you something. You know what happened?
- [101:51]
Max Kellerman
424323.
- [101:54]
Rich Paul
I forgot it.
- [101:55]
Max Kellerman
240-834-18341.
- [101:58]
Rich Paul
Yeah, I didn't forget it.
- [101:59]
Max Kellerman
Okay, so we were spotted six days digits. And we were able to still get it wrong.
- [102:03]
Rich Paul
But I had to just get the rhythm down. My brother. Holy. Yeah, it's like, like my brother. Like we've been down since it was 10 years old. He caught. He calls me. He goes.
- [102:13]
Max Kellerman
He goes, this is a laugh usually you only get from Dean. So.
- [102:17]
Rich Paul
No, but he. He called me. He goes, man, I said, what's up? I said, what's up? Holy. Call me every day. I said, what's up? Holy. He goes, man, you got me playing at 8341.
- [102:30]
Max Kellerman
Did he hit?
- [102:31]
Rich Paul
No.
- [102:32]
Max Kellerman
Yeah, right.
- [102:33]
Rich Paul
But, but, but you don't. The reason why it makes me laugh because one of the things when you're a number player and somebody says a number you should play, you can't not
- [102:44]
Max Kellerman
play it because it comes out if it drives you crazy, Kill you.
- [102:48]
Rich Paul
Yeah. So I was rolling when he called me. I was like, oh, man, my bad. I didn't mean to do that. But anyway. But great show, man.
- [102:55]
Max Kellerman
Yeah. Yeah.
- [102:55]
Rich Paul
Great show. Yeah.
- [102:57]
Max Kellerman
See you on Monday.
- [102:58]
Rich Paul
See you on Monday.
- [102:59]
Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
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Max Kellerman
That's the beauty of Michigan.
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Tom Dundon
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Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
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