NBA Debates, Dealing With Poor Performances, and Team Camaraderie

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Debates, Dealing With Poor Performances, and Team Camaraderie
Host: The Ringer
Date: December 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into NBA debates, analyze the impact of “winning players” vs. stars, explore the psychology of poor performances, and discuss team chemistry. From breaking down Desmond Bane and the value of great role players, to real talk about dealing with bad games and peer relationships on pro teams, this episode provides both big-picture insights and behind-the-scenes anecdotes from Rich Paul’s life as a super-agent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Are the Top NBA Shooting Guards?

(Starts ~05:21)

• Max and Rich debate the value and ranking of shooting guards, focusing on Desmond Bane, Austin Reaves, Norman Powell, and the usual stars (Anthony Edwards, Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell).
• Rich Paul is skeptical of rigid rankings, preferring to talk in terms of "tiers" and “winning players.”

Notable Quotes:

• “Is Desmond Bane a top five two guard?” (Max, 07:24)
• “For me, yeah, I like Desmond Bane because he’s a winning two guard.” (Rich, 07:27)
• “I really hate those conversations... most people are looking at stats, style of play... but when you’re talking about winning, having a structured, selfless team, Desmond Bane is a top five.” (Rich, 07:34)
• “When you have guys that embrace their role... that normally leads to winning.” (Rich, 08:45)
• “Austin has really, really, really took a step. I don’t know where he fits in. I know he’s a damn good player.” (Rich, 10:53)

Tier Talk:

• Instead of top-5 lists, Rich prefers classifying players as Tier 1 (stars like Edwards, Booker, Mitchell) and Tier 2 (players like Bane, Powell, and Reaves who contribute to winning).

2. The Underrated Value of "Winning Players"

(Starts ~17:42)

• Discussion on players who might never get star-level credit but are essential for championships (KCP for Denver, Norman Powell, etc.).
• Max and Rich agree Bane’s contract is a reflection of his unique, winning skillset, even if he's not a top-3 star.
• The conversation highlights the tough choices teams make due to salary cap constraints.

Notable Quotes:

• “KCP won’t ever get top two guard credit, but in a championship moment… he made big shots and stops.” (Rich, 18:05)
• “If you have a team of five guys who all do their job as well as Desmond Bane does his job, you can win a championship, in my opinion.” (Max, 32:22)

3. The Thin Line Between All-Stars & Role Players

(Starts ~24:14)

• Explores how teams often keep winning even when star players are out, due to depth and versatile modern role players.
• The difference between “just another guy” and an All Star is narrower than ever, but playoff basketball still demands higher-level talent.

Notable Quotes:

• “Nowadays, everyone’s more capable of doing a little more than they used to be.” (Max, 25:20)
• “When a guy like Trae Young goes down… it’s not a matter of better or not, just a different style of play.” (Rich, 25:20)

4. Embracing Roles for Team Success

(Starts ~27:59)

• Rich shares agent insights: Many top-ranked prospects fail because they never learn to play without the ball or embrace a role.
• Personal storytelling about his father’s "fanny pack" analogy—players don’t need a “bag,” just what fits their (typically smaller) team role.

Notable Quotes:

• “The biggest reason why you see a kid ranked very high who doesn’t make it—it’s because they never learn how to play without the ball.” (Rich, 27:59)

5. The Knicks’ Roster, Team Building, and the Limits of “Doing Everything Right”

(Starts ~31:32)

• Max argues the Knicks’ current starting five has no gaping holes but still isn’t quite “championship level” because their talent ceiling isn’t as high as true contenders.
• The acquisition of players like Mikal Bridges and OG Anunoby exemplifies the push for "winning" wings, but Max says their skill sets need to be “pitched higher.”

Notable Quotes:

• “If Bridges was a little bit more of what they thought they were getting, the Knicks would be viewed differently.” (Max, 44:10)
• “I think they went and got Mikal Bridges because the year before, they lost to Boston…and you need defenders to guard those guys.” (Rich, 45:15)

6. Rich Responds to Criticism of His Negotiation Tactics

(Starts ~35:20)

• Rich defends the negotiation behind Tristan Thompson’s contract, explaining the value of being able to embrace and perfect your role—even if you don’t fill up box scores.
• Addresses a common narrative that client leverage (“LeBron got him paid”) oversimplifies why certain players are compensated well.

Notable Quotes:

• “That’s BS…when you have a big that switches one-through-five, and maybe doesn’t stop a guy, but makes it hard, that’s worth real money.” (Rich, 35:43)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

Rankings Debate:

• Max repeatedly tries to pin Rich down on a top-5 two guard list. Rich resists:
  • “I don’t really give a shit about the top five.” (Rich, 11:07)
  • “You refuse to rank. I thought it was going to go viral—Rich Paul ranks his top five shooting guards. You absolutely refused.” (Max, 48:35)

Player Mentality & Dealing with Bad Performances

(Starts ~51:41)

• Using Jalen Hurts’ recent struggles as an example, Rich explains a good agent tailors their approach to a player’s personality and the situation:
  • “Some guys like to talk about it to get it off their chest after the game…you have to have a very short memory in our league or in any professional league.” (Rich, 53:12)
  • “The differentiator is mindset…at this level, it’s 90% mental because it’s a roller coaster.” (Rich, 53:49)

The Psychology of Drops & Mistakes (Kelce, A.J. Brown)

(Starts 56:05)

• Max explores whether high-profile drops are about skill decay or underlying psychological tension.
  • “It’s not like you forget how to catch. … When Kelsey drops a pass, it feels to me like there’s something going on psychologically, like on some level he doesn’t believe he deserves it.” (Max, 56:05)
• Rich pivots to team camaraderie and the hidden importance of off-court bonding.
  • “When you have a good thing going, how do you recognize the good in it? Sometimes you have to go... sit with him.” (Rich, 59:15)

Player Career Choices: Winning vs. Money

(Starts ~64:17)

• Deep dive into how star or breakout players (e.g., Austin Reaves) weigh the financial trade-offs of staying with a legacy franchise versus chasing bigger contracts elsewhere.
  • “Most players are competitive enough, they’re like, I want to win a championship up to about 10-15% of their earnings. Then they’re like, let me get the money.” (Max, 66:05)
  • “If there’s like an $80 million difference…and the cost of living is cheaper…you’re not making $80 million up.” (Rich, 67:10)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 05:21 - Desmond Bane, role players vs. stars discussion begins
• 10:43 - Austin Reaves, role player ceiling
• 17:15 - Tiers of shooting guards; KCP, Norman Powell discussion
• 24:14 - All-Star impact vs. deep, versatile role team
• 27:59 - Embracing roles and agent advice anecdote
• 31:32 - Knicks’ roster as a “do all the right things” chemistry test
• 35:20 - Tristan Thompson negotiation, the leverage myth
• 51:41 - Agents/coaches on how to handle players’ bad games
• 56:05 - Psychology of critical mistakes (Kelce, A.J. Brown)
• 59:15 - Team camaraderie: lunches, off-court bonding
• 64:17 - Austin Reaves’ next contract and the win-vs-money dilemma

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Tone & Style

• Light, banter-filled with grounded honesty: Playful jabs about fashion, rankings, and top-5 debates keep things accessible while providing real agent and player perspective.
• Candid and practical: Rich brings a matter-of-fact, “coachable” mindset, with stories from both his client interactions and personal life.
• Analytical: Max pushes for structure and rankings, but also boasts a nuanced understanding of what separates true difference-makers from “just another good player.”

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Conclusion

This episode pulls back the curtain on NBA team-building—how players, stars, and agents view winning, roles, and personal legacy. Rich Paul’s emphasis on accepting (and perfecting) roles as the engine of success—weaving in client and player anecdotes—contrasts with Max’s push for categorizable greatness and ceiling-raising talent. They share actionable insights for fans, players, and anyone interested in what makes teams truly click—or fall short—in the ultra-competitive world of pro sports.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• Expect provocative NBA debates (especially on player ranking and roles)
• Learn how top agents think about building teams and guiding players through adversity
• Hear what really matters in a locker room—and the unglamorous skills that swing championships
• Get both the granular details (e.g., agent negotiations, the danger of rigid analytics) and the soft skills (chemistry, camaraderie, self-awareness)
• All in a bantering, back-and-forth style that keeps the sports talk both real and relatable

Transcript

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[Max Kellerman]

All right, so Magic Beat the Heat.

[Rich Paul]

Wait, what? Caused me a lot of issues last show.

[Max Kellerman]

What'd I do?

[Rich Paul]

It's not what you did, what you said. I need you to clean it up a little bit.

[Max Kellerman]

You have to be more specific than that, dude.

[Rich Paul]

Weird takes. Then I have to respond to your takes and they become hot takes.

[Max Kellerman]

The only thing I saw that went like that, people were saying is that I was Travis Kelce, which I was not. I just said it's odd that he's dropping passes.

[Rich Paul]

We have different albums.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause he's maybe the greatest ever. I saw the things you saw things that I saw.

[Rich Paul]

And I got phone calls. I have text messages to show. And then another thing.

[Max Kellerman]

I literally can't even imagine what that is.

[Rich Paul]

The other thing I want to make sure you understand as partners, when my clothes isn't right, you have to let me know.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like, oh, the pants were a little.

[Rich Paul]

If you had a booger, I'd be.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, Max, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Get that out your nose.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's.

[Rich Paul]

I look like I had on shoulder pads. That's not. You know, I just need to be right.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's go. All right, okay, that's fair. That's fair. So Magic Beat the Heat. I got something I want to talk about. I don't even want to tell you what it is yet. We could just do Magic Heat, but I want to start like this.

[Rich Paul]

Magic Heat.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll tell you what the. What the actual topic is when we get there, but I have something in mind for you. I want to know what you're. I want. I want to know something from you. And then Knicks beat the Raptors. I have something to say about that. It's not exactly about the game, but I want to talk about the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

Knicks, Knicks, Raptors. Knicks, Raptors.

[Max Kellerman]

Or just Knicks, Knicks, Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

Don't front on the Raptors like that. Yeah, you know, Toronto's My favorite city.

[Max Kellerman]

Is it.

[Rich Paul]

Of course it is.

[Max Kellerman]

Number one.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Number one.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

To each his own. I mean, I like Toronto, but number one. You want to do a top five cities list?

[Rich Paul]

All right, well, I'll say. Yeah, it's in my top five. I take back the number one, but it's a close second.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's one. I don't know if this is what you're talking about, a topic like this, but Jalen hurts meltdown. Because we haven't. We haven't been. We haven't done this show since.

[Rich Paul]

You want to talk Eagles.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, all right. I want to know something for you. I want you to put your Mr. Bias hat on. Actually, you're going to have to for this one.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Philip Rivers there was.

[Rich Paul]

Who?

[Max Kellerman]

Philip Rivers is on the. Is on the Colts practice squad.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Philip Rivers is on the Colts practice squad. I think. I think we got to talk about.

[Rich Paul]

That's not true.

[Max Kellerman]

Philip Rivers is on the Colts practice squad. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Philip Rivers haven't played in. I mean.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, he's probably not going to play this year, but we'll see anyway. He's on the.

[Rich Paul]

But if he is on the practice squad. Hey, I need. I need whatever Philip Rivers is taking.

[Max Kellerman]

You said stuff about Austin Reaves. We were talking about Austin Reaves a little bit. I want to pick your brain on Austin Reaves. About what?

[Rich Paul]

Ar.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep, yep. Right. You good, Philip?

[Rich Paul]

I'm stuck on Philip Rivers.

[Max Kellerman]

And then. And then.

[Rich Paul]

Wait a minute. Is he tight end? He's not coming back, is he?

[Max Kellerman]

Who?

[Rich Paul]

Antonio Gates? Yeah, Philip Rivers.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no Antonio Gates.

[Rich Paul]

It's the same Philip Rivers, but Antonio.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he threw a lot of passes to Antonio Gates.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I'm saying. So if he's. I mean, Antonio Gates is my man.

[Max Kellerman]

I think we're good. There's stuff I don't even want to. There's stuff I've been thinking about. I want to. I want to hit you with.

[Rich Paul]

What are you listening to right now?

[Max Kellerman]

What am I listening to?

[Rich Paul]

I think your rap stuff is suspect right now.

[Max Kellerman]

Mine is suspect.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But you like to go all the way back to this whole.

[Max Kellerman]

I do a lot of ghosts in my car.

[Rich Paul]

Ghost face, ghost face.

[Max Kellerman]

Lot of ghost face that don't count. But then I drive my daughter to school, so I have to also.

[Rich Paul]

She's not listening.

[Max Kellerman]

She listen. She listens. I put her up on the classics. That's classics now, so. But there's playlists that I have to. Some of it's educational for her, but she likes the rice, so she has good taste. So a lot of what I listen to is the school mix.

[Rich Paul]

Magic, Heat, Knicks, Eagles, Philip Rivers, Austin Reaves.

[Max Kellerman]

I like it.

[Rich Paul]

Austin Reaves.

[Max Kellerman]

Come on, can we start this show?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we can start.

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[Max Kellerman]

And surprises all month long.

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[Max Kellerman]

So I'm watching Desmond Bane go off last night, right? He went for 37. And I'm thinking to myself, and the Magic beat the Heat. And I thought we'd start out and talk about how like all these especially primary ball handlers but stars, they get hurt, the team functions better somehow. And we were gonna talk about that, right? And we can still. But the first thing I started thinking when I woke up this morning and I'm coming here talking to you is like, you know, usually I'm thinking of two guards. Usually there aren't a lot of really good ones. And Desmond Bain just went for.

[Rich Paul]

Wait, which game was you watching?

[Max Kellerman]

Magic and Heat.

[Rich Paul]

So the guy that doesn't like the NBA cup was actually watching the NBA Cup?

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I would have been. It was only two games on last night. But yes, I was watching the NBA Cup.

[Rich Paul]

All I know is you told me you didn't like the NBA Cup. So now you watch an NBA Cup.

[Max Kellerman]

Never said I didn't like it. I'm saying I like it better than nothing. But I think we can do better.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, we have film with.

[Max Kellerman]

You saying roll back the film, but right away you're going to start with this.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying I was surprised to know that you was watching, but go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

You had a better idea for the NBA cup you came up with in five seconds. What if it was tournament?

[Rich Paul]

I'm just happy you were watching the NBA Cup.

[Max Kellerman]

That's it, dude.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so.

[Max Kellerman]

So bane goes for 37. He's shooting the lights out, right? They win the game. And I'm thinking to myself, here you have an actual two way player, like he can defend his position and he's not like a real small guy and he can shoot and he's going to give you year in and year out, 20 points on 40% plus from 3, about 90% from the line and play some defense. That's a damn good player.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

And that was. Is he usually a two guard like that in the league? Is a top five guy because that's a hard position to find really good players. And I was thinking, is he even top 10? Is he top five? Like there are a lot of good two guards in this league.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah, there are a lot of.

[Max Kellerman]

Is Desmond Bain a top five two guard?

[Rich Paul]

For me, yeah, I like Desmond Bain because he's a winning two guard.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

See, when people think about is he a top five? I really hate those conversations because is he top five, is he top ten? Whatever the case may be, most people are looking at stats, most people are looking at style of play. Most people want to see you come down and do some whoopty doo type of thing and you know you're scoring the points. But when you're talking about winning, if you have a winning structure, structured team on the floor, Desmond Bane is a top five. I mean, look, because the reason why I say that is because if you're playing winning basketball, right, what's happening is you got guys that's selfless on the floor and they're making the right play pretty much every single time. So if I have a winning team, right, a championship contending team, that means I have at least two guys on the floor that's drawing what, two double teams?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Right. So now if I'm drawing two, and that is either a swing, swing to Desmond Bane or it's a skip to Desmond Bane, he's making that shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Either way, if you don't pay attention to him, you're any defense.

[Rich Paul]

And the other thing about Desmond Bane that I think people don't understand how important it is to have. When you're trying to win, you have to have guys that embrace their role. Most guys come into our league trying to be the role. When you have guys that embrace their role, embracing your role in anything, by the way, in anything normally leads to winning. So for me, I would say, yes, Desmond Bane is a top five guard for winning. And here's the other thing.

[Max Kellerman]

But you got to count like, like people. I see, I, I see who's your top five?

[Rich Paul]

Who, who would be your top five?

[Max Kellerman]

So I would say the best two guard in the league is. And, and what you just said about embracing your role, I understand it's positionless basketball. So I'm kind of like fitting these guys into old category. Into an old category.

[Rich Paul]

Shooting. Translates. He's a shooter.

[Max Kellerman]

He. You guard the other team's guard and you shoot. Right.

[Rich Paul]

But every team needs what team has.

[Max Kellerman]

So I think Anthony Edwards is the best two guard in basketball. Facts, right? I'd say I know Donovan Mitchell's kind of a combo guard, but I would think of him more like a 2.

[Rich Paul]

Have to put him there.

[Max Kellerman]

And I would put him probably next and I'd probably over.

[Rich Paul]

Wait. Over Devin?

[Max Kellerman]

Probably? Yeah. You put Booker over. I'm not. I wouldn't die on that.

[Rich Paul]

It's not so much as about over. Yeah, for me, Donovan is definitely a combo. But Devin is 6 5.

[Max Kellerman]

And again, not gonna argue.

[Rich Paul]

I'm always gonna go with again when you talk about a guy drawing too. But yeah, tomato. I'll put that. I'm not taking nothing away from Donovan.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, fine. You're right. He has size that Donovan doesn't have. He's a better shooter. Okay, so let's say one is cheese.

[Rich Paul]

Pizza and a margarita.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm with it. I'm with it. But we go. We go. Ant, Booker, Mitchell, right? That's probably the top three. Where's Austin Reaves fit in?

[Rich Paul]

Ooh.

[Max Kellerman]

Not an awful defender. Smart kind of team defender. He's giving you 30 a night nowadays.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, Austin has really, really, really took a step. I don't know. I don't know where he fits in. I know he's a damn good player.

[Max Kellerman]

Is he top five?

[Rich Paul]

See, I don't really give a shit about the top five.

[Max Kellerman]

I do, though, because if those other three guys. Okay, let's. I'll do it another way.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'll say.

[Max Kellerman]

This is how I do pound for pound in boxing, okay? It's like, who knows the difference between the seventh and the eighth best pound for pound fighter, right? What you do is pretend that the guys you've mentioned so far don't exist. Like there's no such thing as Ant. No such thing as Donovan Mitchell. No such thing as. As Devin Booker.

[Rich Paul]

Who's.

[Max Kellerman]

If those guys didn't exist, who's the best 2 guard in the NBA?

[Rich Paul]

Here you go with this fantasy basket. This was. This. This is why I have issues.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

The first show.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You playing fantasy basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Second show, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

No, no.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I played fantasy on the first show. What? I do fantasy.

[Rich Paul]

We did a lot of fantasy things. Basketball, fantasy football. No, I take blame for the Mahomes to Dallas situation, but by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

Nate Silver came out on. On with a. With his qbert rating, which like, takes all these things into consideration and rates quarterbacks, including going forward, where they rate in the league first. Like what they. How they project first time Mahomes has fallen out of the top five. Just FYI Silver. Nate Silver 538 predicted the election, like to such a great degree not three elections ago.

[Rich Paul]

But I don't know if I agree with that. But nevertheless, I don't know, Max. It's put it this way, there's so many really good players in our league, really talented players. I'm trying to think and it's very hard.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this you, Rich, Paul, the agent having to be careful, or this is just the way your nature as a basketball player?

[Rich Paul]

First of all. First of all, I don't have to be careful. There's no gray area with me. It's black or it's white. Very simple. I'm just trying to think because when you talk about. When I'm watching a basketball game, I'm not watching the same game you're watching.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

It's like if you're watching a boxing match.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I've watched a basketball game with you. I agree with that.

[Rich Paul]

Exactly. So when you ask me these questions about top five, I don't really love top five, just like I don't really love analytics. Because if you talk about analytics, oh, this guy shoots this 42% from three shoots for. Okay, well, what's the analytic? When you're down one, he's wide open. It's 36.

[Max Kellerman]

You can do those two. But I hear what you're saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but it's.

[Max Kellerman]

You have to.

[Rich Paul]

You don't have enough of a tool.

[Max Kellerman]

Just like your eyes are a tool.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you don't have enough of those moments. And to analytically be able to give me a consistency in your evaluation.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm just saying those top.

[Rich Paul]

I would say Austin Reaves has placed.

[Max Kellerman]

Himself in the conversation.

[Rich Paul]

In the conversation with any two guards.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, really?

[Rich Paul]

In the. Yeah, because you can only go for the.

[Max Kellerman]

Reeves and Devin Booker are available. You're not taking.

[Rich Paul]

I'm taking Devin Booker. Of course, but here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

But here's the list.

[Rich Paul]

No, but here's. But here's what I'm gonna say. That's unfair to Austin Reeves because when you talk about having Austin Reeves can only do what his opportunity is awarding him to do.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And if you ask me, is Austin Reaves taking full advantage of his opportunity, the answer would be yes. If you Said that a guy was undrafted and became Austin Reeves.

[Max Kellerman]

Can't ask for more than that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you would say not only is he living up to whatever, he's overachieved. He's done more than anybody would ever imagine he would possibly do. So this is what I'm saying. Devin Booker, Donovan, Anthony Edwards, those guys came in as lottery picks.

[Max Kellerman]

Mikhail Bridges is a guy who was a. And I think this happens in the NBA a lot now.

[Rich Paul]

He's not a two.

[Max Kellerman]

Mikhail Bridges isn't a two.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

You tell him a three.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he's a wing.

[Max Kellerman]

But the. But the difference between a 2 and a 3 has always been nebulous in the NBA. No, the difference between what's Jaylen Brown.

[Rich Paul]

The difference between a 2 and a 3 has always been shooting. That's why the 2 guard is called a shooting guard. You know that, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

What's Jalen Brown? Come on. But the threes can shoot now. All the threes have to. Most of the threes have to be able to.

[Rich Paul]

The Threes can.

[Max Kellerman]

No, Ahmed Thompson can't shoot. But he's a two guard. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Well, you're going back to the position of his basketball. You can say, amen Thompson can't shoot. All you want. I want that guy on the floor with me.

[Max Kellerman]

No doubt. Okay, but he is. I'm saying you have to take all that into consideration. Is Jaylen Brown A2?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Is Jalen Williams A2?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so you take them off of the list. Amen. Thompson, you're saying, is not exactly the same kind of animal as the others.

[Rich Paul]

No, he. They put him. The reason why Houston can place Amin Thompson at the two guard position is because they have shooting everywhere else.

[Max Kellerman]

Norman Powell. The two.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Combo two.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Norman Powell on the. In the list of what? Best two guards in the NBA.

[Rich Paul]

See, you keep throwing these weird words. Best.

[Max Kellerman]

Like that's weird.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because now you.

[Max Kellerman]

I know you're saying best for.

[Rich Paul]

Course, when you say best, the best two guards is on the Olympic team. Okay, Norman Powell's not on the Olympic team. Does that mean that Norman Powell is not a really good two guard? No, but that's what I'm saying. When you talk about the best. If you talk about the best, we take the best two guards to go win the gold. So who was on the Olympic team?

[Max Kellerman]

If I took Anthony Edwards, Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker.

[Rich Paul]

No, you're only taking two.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying if I took them off the list, they don't exist.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, then you can.

[Max Kellerman]

Then who's. Who's on The Olympic team.

[Rich Paul]

So I like to go by tiers, not best. All right, the tier one guys. The tier two guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's tier two?

[Rich Paul]

I would say Norman Powell's in that.

[Max Kellerman]

Tier two with Austin Reeves and Desmond Bain. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Desmond? Well, yeah, I would say. For me, I would say, yeah, Desmond's there. Desmond's there.

[Max Kellerman]

So he's a top six seven two guard in the league.

[Rich Paul]

I guess, whatever you want to call it.

[Max Kellerman]

I like that topic more than you do, obviously. But no, I'm just.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just. Because I look at these guys so different. I'll give you a prime example. Denver won a championship. Sure. Who was a two guard you could like?

[Max Kellerman]

Jamal Murray's a combo guard.

[Rich Paul]

He was not their two guard.

[Max Kellerman]

He's the point guard. But he can.

[Rich Paul]

Who was their two guard?

[Max Kellerman]

He can do a lot of the shooting.

[Rich Paul]

You're being disrespectful, Max. Who am I being disrespectful to? KCP was their two guard.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, he was.

[Rich Paul]

Anyone two?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, he was.

[Rich Paul]

What I'm saying is you're right.

[Max Kellerman]

No, Stan, wait. Let me retract my former statement. Jamal Murray's bringing the ball up the floor. Jamal Murray's getting his. Your offense. Jamal Murray's also shooting the lights out in the playoffs. Kentavious. Caldwell Pope is your two guard.

[Rich Paul]

Correct. But what I'm saying is he won't ever get the credit of being a top two guard. But in a championship moment, when a team needed to win, he made big shots and he made big stops. He's never gonna get the credit of those tier one guys because they do all things throughout the course of an 82 game season. But when you talk about the playoffs and you have the other pieces doing.

[Max Kellerman]

Your role at the highest level when you need it the most.

[Rich Paul]

So I really want to talk about. We know who those guys are, but I want to talk about the guys that win the win guys. Right? And I'm not taking. Those guys are tier one. I'm talking about the better conversation is if you have everything else right and you need to plug in a two guard. You got a big. That can playmake with touch, et cetera. You have a point guard that can score. You have a wing that could. That can defend and also score. You don't have the money necessarily to go and get this glamorous two guard. Who do you go and get? That's where I like Norman Powell. That's where I like kcp. Now the interesting thing about Desmond Baines is.

[Max Kellerman]

And that's Actually relevant because the way the NBA salary structure works, your money is very likely going to be directed to your primary ball. If he's a star, hopefully the following guys are a star. A primary ball handler who can do everything and either. And. And a wing who can play two ways and score and all that stuff. So now, how do you fill out the other positions?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but. But there's a lot that goes with that. Like in Desmond Bane's case, people don't remember. Desmond Bane is on a max contract, and that hurts. Desmond bang was the 30th pick in the draft. He's on a max contract. By the way, that draft was really good. In the back, from 20 to 30, they have two guys in the top from 20 to 30 with max deals. Who else is Maxi?

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Bang.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Is Maxie a two guard?

[Rich Paul]

Maxi's a player.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. He's too much of a.

[Rich Paul]

He's half Mr. Bias.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I agree. He's a combo basket player.

[Rich Paul]

He's a basketball player. You know, I text him the other night.

[Max Kellerman]

Great.

[Rich Paul]

After, after, after. He missed a shot. And I think BJ got the tip, got the put back. But the IQ of Golden State, they got that ball out fast and boom, kicked it. But Tyrese. And this is why is so important. You know the NBA does these background checks on guys, right? And they know everything. They know who your kindergarten teacher was. They know what you ate for lunch in the kindergarten. Every day. Every day, they know what you ate. But I always think about it, in this case, he missed a shot. He had the wherewithal to get up off the ground and sprint back and block Anthony Melton's shot.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

He sure did.

[Max Kellerman]

And even when he missed the shot, it led to a score because it was a smart shot. It put the ball around the basket anyway, and then on the other end, ices the win with a ball.

[Rich Paul]

Why was Vijay able to get the ball? If you watch that play, Tyrese shot that ball over two people. So now there's no one.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, there's one person sucked out.

[Rich Paul]

But the point I'm making is in most cases, that player acts the part. And the part that they need to act is, oh, I missed a shot. So you sulking in this thing. I roll over on the ground, I miss the shot. But being able to get up and go and make that play, I text him after the game. I said, if a guy don't want to play with Tyrese Maxey out of.

[Max Kellerman]

Their minds, there's something wrong with him. Yeah, he's a litmus desk. Matter of fact, I think you, me and Simmons were texting about. Because when that happened, I was texting with someone about it. Because when that play happened, when he got back on defense and ices the win with the. I'm thinking, man, that's a championship player.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And it's. And the thing is, what I'm saying about Desmond Bane is Desmond Bane's on a max contract because Paolo's money doesn't come on the books until next year. I believe they was able to trade in Desmond Bane because if you look at everything else, you know, they paying Wendell a little money, they paying Frank. Bronze is the only other one.

[Max Kellerman]

And Bane is max, but he's like in the 30s right now because of.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, it was the max then. But what I'm saying is they were able to trade him in and he actually got him and KCP actually switched. But plugging him in there because obviously they felt like they needed whatever more shooting, et cetera, and see how it would mesh. But it was very interesting to see how they were able to do that given the fact that Paolo had actually showed that he is a max player without paying him the max. The flexibility that you have when a young player is giving you max production.

[Max Kellerman]

It'S like a quarterback on a rookie contract.

[Rich Paul]

So you're able to.

[Max Kellerman]

But that leads to something else, which I mentioned briefly, which is, you know, Trae Young goes down, Paolo goes down, and the teams go on winning streaks. I was thinking about that because. And I think Bane is above this level. But. But maybe he fits in as the best example of this kind of guy. There are the distance between an All Star and your kind of just three and D plus guy. Right. Is much short, is. It's much less than it used to be. It used to be the All Stars were a lot better than role players. And to me, and I brought up Bridges before, because he's the kind of guy, you don't want him to be the primary scorer on your team, but if you make can score, he. If the Nets need a guy to do that, he can get you 20 plus a game.

[Rich Paul]

Well, he showed us, See?

[Max Kellerman]

And that's why guys like when guys like Trae Young and Ben Carroll go down and the teams keep winning and the fans are like, oh, maybe, of course you need those guys, but. And the fans are like, maybe we don't need those guys. What they're seeing is, I think the effect of everyone being asked now to do a little more. But nowadays everyone's more capable of doing A little more than they used to be.

[Rich Paul]

Guys are definitely more capable. But what happens in that case, Max, when a guy like Trae Young goes down, right, the style of play changes. He's a guy that's pick and roll heavy. Pick and roll heavy. And he has 25 points, 15 assists. He gets, he gets his assists and he gets his points. But then you're able to play a different style of basketball. So it's not a matter of if they're better or not. It's just a different style of play.

[Max Kellerman]

But I think the fans appreciate that too, that it feels more like a team game. The ball has energy, everyone's touching it.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the other thing. When you have a star guy that is going to take the shot, most of the times teams are actually able to guard you a lot easier because they know the go to guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

That's why if we did the percentage of games the other night, I was.

[Max Kellerman]

That's why James Harden never won a championship. That's why the jury is out on Luka, whether or not he's a championship player. Right. Because they're too ball dominant guys are standing around.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing. This is why if you can change your style of play in the playoffs, you need, by the way, you need. Those guys don't even. Those are two of the greatest.

[Max Kellerman]

You just don't need them to be doing all that all the time.

[Rich Paul]

Well, what happens is a Tuesday night in Detroit is a lot different than a week and a half of a seven game series. So now I know for a fact coaches don't show you everything. Mike Brown isn't showing you everything just in case they have to see you in the playoffs. I know T. Lou for sure. He didn't show you everything just in case you have to see him. I used to sit, I used to sit with T. Lou at his house. We'd be up late and he's going over coverages, film, and I would be sitting there with him because I wanted to know. And sometimes in the game it would be a timeout and I would be like, yo, T. Lou, what you running? And he would say, I'm running this, I'm running. And I started to. I'm just a basketball crazy guy. But I wanted to learn certain things, certain coverages. You had times where teams wouldn't even show you the defense because they're gonna see you down the road.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, my algorithm shows me Greg Maddox setting up dudes because he knows he's gonna face them again in the Playoffs and then giving up home run on purpose so we could set the dude up for the. I mean, you know, that's next level kind of chess.

[Rich Paul]

But with these guys, like you said, the difference, there's not a big drop off. But it goes back to my point today. When a guy gets drafted, right? And I tell all guys this, the biggest reason why you see a kid ranked very high and they don't make it, it's because they never learn how to play without the ball. They never learn how to embrace the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that something you tell your clients?

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. Because, well, two things happen. A college coach would get in front of a kid and totally tell them sometimes everything they need to hear to sign. And then when they get there, they have this idea of, oh, I'm going to get here and I'm going to be able to be the same player I was in school. High, high school. Well, that's not true. But the reality of it is, like, I tell everybody, you and your family, and everybody wants you to have this bag. You don't need a bag. You need like a really. My dad used to wear this fanny pack that he used to. Because we sold cigarettes.

[Max Kellerman]

So I read your book.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, so when the, when the Newport or cool people would come in, they would give you these. But they would give you these like, gifts. And sometimes they would give you these like, you know, fanny packs. And my dad used to wear it to like Geauga Lake, which was. Became Six Flags in Ohio.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I thought you were gonna tell me your dad was selling Lucy's out the store.

[Rich Paul]

No, we did sell single cigarettes too, but. No, but I'm like, you need just a little fanny pack. You need to be able to. You don't need a whole bag because you're never gonna be if you play with the top guys in the league. When are you. You might get three shot attempts. So now you have to be able to, one, embrace a role. Two, perfect that role. And three, be willing to play that style of basketball all the time. That don't mean you can't do other things.

[Max Kellerman]

You just don't need to.

[Rich Paul]

So going back to Mikhail Bridges, the player he was in Phoenix, you didn't see that. And then the player he was in, in Brooklyn, those are two different players. But M. Bridges is smart enough to do as he's asked, right? You know, he can do whatever.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what, let me say something else about that though, because this leads to the Knicks. I want to talk about the Knicks.

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[Max Kellerman]

They played last night too. There were two NBA games. There's the Magic, Heat and there was the Knicks and Raptors. Magic beat the Heat, Knicks beat the Raptors, and Bridges. The Knicks gave up a lot for a lot for a lot of picks. They gave up a lot from for Bridges. When you see like what Durant was eventually moved for, it's like that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but see, this is the problem.

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying they didn't give up a lot for Bridges.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not saying they did not give up a lot. But again, when you're in a situation where you feel like if we get this player.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, wait, stay right there. This is what I'm saying. So I think of a guy like Desmond Bane getting back to Bane. If you have a team of five guys who all do their job as well as Desmond Bain does his job, you can win a championship. In my opinion.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Like at Bill James, the baseball, you know, godfather of sabermetrics in baseball once did this and I thought it was interesting because I used to think about this because I'm a sports nut is like at what point? If you said of all time or in the league right now, if you took the NBA, you know, all NBA. 1, 2, 3, 4. At what point do you no longer have a championship team at the All NBA? Six level, seven level, eight level. Right. There are 30 starters at each position. If you have a Desmond Bain level player at each position, I think you can win a championship. If you have a.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we just saw that.

[Max Kellerman]

If you have a Mikhail Bridges layer Level player at every position. I don't think so. I think he's good. But you're going to need a little bit more in certain areas now.

[Rich Paul]

Well, see, you're just counting one thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

Whatever you think Mikael Bridges lack and he's good.

[Max Kellerman]

I like Bridges. He does what he's supposed to do.

[Rich Paul]

You're basing off a skill set.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, no. I'm basing it off of how highly pitched each skill is. Like you could have someone, you mentioned a bag. You could have someone who's a very well rounded player. And two players both very well rounded, but one of their, one of them has a talent just pitched a little higher. They both shoot the three really well, but one shoots 38 and one shoots 42%. They both.

[Rich Paul]

But what if one lacks IQ?

[Max Kellerman]

That's one of the things you're checking for, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but then the other thing is, what if he also lacks IQ and willingness? See, I think that's so underrated because.

[Max Kellerman]

Willingness to accept the role.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. This is the biggest issue we have. Whether you have a guy that plays 20 years and get to a place where it's like, I don't want to. People were saying, oh, this guy needs to fit in. Right, right. They were even talking about lj. He has to fit in. Well, he's always. He's only ever fitted in. He's only ever made the right basketball play, did the right basketball things. You have to take into consideration whether you're starting a team from scratch or whether you plug in and playing a guy where you moving pieces around. If this guy comes in and he's a 25 point scorer, but for this team, I need him to be a 15 point scorer.

[Max Kellerman]

Will he do it with a good spirit about it so that the team. I get it.

[Rich Paul]

And by the way, you don't have to necessarily score 25 to be paid at the level of a 25 point score. You know how I know this? I did it. Tristan Thompson, you wouldn't have said Tristan Thompson was at the same level of the top bigs in the league, but he got paid because of what he embraced his role.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, people would argue he got paid because LeBron James gave him leverage, but that's bullshit. Okay, wait, hold on, hold on.

[Rich Paul]

And here's why I call. Here's why I, here's why I call bullshit on that. That's a cop out. And people want to say that to discredit me first and foremost.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I think they're giving you credit, actually.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, you're not giving me credit with that. That's false.

[Max Kellerman]

They're saying you're using clients to leverage other.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's false. That's not true. But again, that's fantasy agent.

[Max Kellerman]

That's speculation and lazy.

[Rich Paul]

But the fact of the matter. The fact of the matter was they were in attacks. They drafted him. Number four. He had the ability to. If you ask Tyronn Lue, who he wanted on the floor when it was when you needed to win. When you have a big, that can. You can switch one through five, and he may not necessarily stop a guy, but he makes it hard on a guy. That's crazy. When you have a big that knows how to hold a screen just long enough for that guy to either get around it or for the defense to be in such a frenzy that now when he slips and that guy makes that pocket pass, the guy, it's too late for this other guy to move over.

[Max Kellerman]

So that's team defense.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but these are things that don't show up in the stat sheet now also, you can't replace them.

[Max Kellerman]

Look, look. I used to have this conversation when Chris Bosh was on the Heat and he was giving you 13 and 8 and Kevin Love was in Minnesota giving you 24 and 12. And everyone was telling me Kevin Love was better than Chris Bosh. I was like, you sure about that? If you watch, you know, I don't think you'd be so sure. But. But before, like, not to get too far into the Tristan Thompson of it all.

[Rich Paul]

No, no. I was just using. Using him as an example. But I'm saying in terms of when you talked about having this many Desmond Baines, right, All these people we're talking about, and I put Mikal Bridges there, too. These are all the same people because of how they think.

[Max Kellerman]

You and I are on the same page about that. I think you explained that really well. What I'm saying is even if you do all the things you're supposed to do, you do it with the right team attitude. You. All those things, it then depends on. On how highly pitched all those skills are. Like you mentioned Tristan Thompson. He can do this. He can do this. He can do this. If he could all do. If he could do all those things a little better, not that he didn't do them well.

[Rich Paul]

He been all NBA player, right?

[Max Kellerman]

So what I'm saying is there are.

[Rich Paul]

But there was guys that was getting 20 and 20 in a different manner. Right. Let you in on a little of the negotiation. Then there was a conversation that was being had. And it was like, well, this player, and in this case it was Tristan. He does not average this many points. Right. He only average X. And I said, that's fair. But, you know, we were talking as a team internally and I'm like, well, if you took the offensive rebound and the extra possessions and you.

[Max Kellerman]

Figured out how often you scored on those, applied that to give some percentage of the.

[Rich Paul]

Points to his scoring average, then where do you fall? So not making it about him, per se. I'm just saying there's a world where, and I think Austin's in the same boat when you have guys that can embrace any role they need to play on a team. Some days those are the guys that swing series. You have guys that swing the series.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, I think that's a good point and I understand it and I agree with it. I'm trying to talk about the Knicks for a second, though.

[Rich Paul]

The reason you from New York or.

[Max Kellerman]

You just want to. Well, maybe, but because also because I think it's interesting right now, and this is the point that I'm trying to make, is that you can have guys on a team where at every position they do what you want them to do and still not win a championship because you're not playing in a vacuum. You're playing against 29 other teams and a lot of them are really good, even if they don't have every position doing exactly what you need. They have some dudes who are just so good that they can make up some of the difference. Right, right. So the Knicks are a team. Look, if Josh Hart shot the ball better, they would have almost everyone on that team doing what you want them to do. Right. They have a really nice situation. If Mitch had a better free throw, if he was a better free throw shooter. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but dislikes. I mean, of course you want every.

[Max Kellerman]

But what I'm saying is then it becomes an issue of not just do you have all the positions and do they do what they're supposed to do and do they have well rounded skill sets for what their job entails? Right, but at what level are they functioning?

[Rich Paul]

But you're not going to have four guys on the team doing things better than they already do. Like that's like.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, it like take I'm using the example of Desmond Bain because I need a guy to play defense, I need a guy to shoot and, and whatever and fit to a team and that's what he does. The issue is maybe. But you don't want to pay a max deal to that guy. Ideally Right.

[Rich Paul]

Well, not. Well, it depends.

[Max Kellerman]

But what I'm saying is there are levels you can. There's. There's that and then there's Klay Thompson, who also does what did. What Desmond Bain does now, but at a higher level. Right, but he's only.

[Rich Paul]

He. He did at a higher level because his team play for higher stakes.

[Max Kellerman]

And he's just a better shooter. Little bit, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying. But here's what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Little bit taller, little bit better defensively. Right? Just a little better.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But that has nothing to do with his team played for higher stakes. If you put Klay Thompson on the Memphis Grizzlies and they got bounced out the playoffs, first round, second round, you wouldn't feel the way you feel about him. The reason why you feel the way you feel about. I'm not arguing that Bane is a better shooter.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

It's okay.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely not. Klay is a. Clay is arguably the best shooter we've. This is what top three we ever seen?

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I'm saying. If you look at the Knicks roster, what I've been trying to say is if you look at the Knicks roster, this is the best starting five of my lifetime on the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

The Patrick Ewing teams were better. Patrick Ewing was like all NBA, all the time. Right? There's no one like that. Except for maybe now Brunson.

[Rich Paul]

On the same starting 5 of your.

[Max Kellerman]

Lifetime on the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

What year were you born?

[Max Kellerman]

73.

[Rich Paul]

What year was Clyde Frazier?

[Max Kellerman]

That was. Okay, fine. Of my conscious lifetime. All right, My, my point is, I mean, the starting five that got to the Finals was Patrick Ewing. The second best player was probably Charles Oakley. So you had like one all NBA.

[Rich Paul]

The second best team player was Charles Oakley.

[Max Kellerman]

Probably on the. On the. On the Knicks team that went to the Finals, probably. And then maybe John Starks, who really should have been a six man. I mean, that's the truth. The point is this Knicks team doesn't really have a guy who you look at and say, man, he's below average in the starting five.

[Rich Paul]

I think on that team, Charles Oakley was probably the most impactful player because he did all things. The best player, obviously was Ewing.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You the second best offensive John Starks. Yeah. Was John Stoks.

[Max Kellerman]

He was really a sixth man who was forced into goal.

[Rich Paul]

Are you talking about the 95 team? Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, wait, wait. I'm saying that even if you have Camby and Ewing was old by that point and Houston and Sprewell, when you look at each position on this Knicks team, it checks the box the way we're talking about. Like, Jalen Brunson is a great point guard. Bridges, you want to call him a wing, fine. He does the job he's supposed to do. Karl Anthony Towns is an All Star every year.

[Rich Paul]

Og.

[Max Kellerman]

OG is excellent. That's just what you want, right? Like, it's checking everything, every position. It's like there's no gaping hole. And my point is, it's still not enough.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Because.

[Max Kellerman]

Because in the NBA, it also matters how highly pitched the talent is. For example, if Bridges was better at all the things he does, then you would look at the Knicks and go, they could win a championship.

[Rich Paul]

So if Bridges was. You saying if Bridges was Jalen Williams.

[Max Kellerman]

From OKC now, you would look at them differently. You'd say, you know what? They're getting out of the East. They got to. They're probably getting out of the east at least, right? Yes. This is what I'm saying. So you can rank. Rank these guys.

[Rich Paul]

So if they go back to. If Bridges was Durant, they win.

[Max Kellerman]

If Kevin. If Bridges. Kevin Durant, Knicks win the championship. This is what I'm saying. My point is you can rank players.

[Rich Paul]

Why do you think the Knicks went and got Mikal Bridges?

[Max Kellerman]

That's what they thought they needed.

[Rich Paul]

No, but why?

[Max Kellerman]

Because he can. I would describe him as 3 and B plus. He can. He can do what you're looking for. And also if you need him to do a little more, at least they were hoping he could do a little more. And I think, in retrospect, and I like Bridges a lot. He's a good player. I like him. I'm glad he's on the Knicks. If he could. If he was a little bit more of what they thought they were getting, the Knicks would be viewed differently.

[Rich Paul]

Right now, I think Mikal Bridges is a winning player.

[Max Kellerman]

Agreed.

[Rich Paul]

I think he's a guy that will do whatever the coach asks him to do. I think they went and got Mikal Bridges because the year before, if I'm not mistaken, they lost to who? Boston in the playoffs.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? Right.

[Rich Paul]

And that Boston team had Holiday at the time.

[Max Kellerman]

Brown, Tatum.

[Rich Paul]

Tatum. So now you go and get OG, you already have Josh Hart, and you get McAu. Because when the going gets tough, you need defenders to guard those guys.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree. We're saying the same, but the talent is pitched higher.

[Rich Paul]

I just think it's.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't. You don't think.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

You don't believe in the talent?

[Rich Paul]

No. I think the Knicks could have got there last Year and won the championship last year.

[Max Kellerman]

They could not, obviously.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but, but again, no.

[Max Kellerman]

Two years ago they were, they were snake fit and they got hurt last year. Seattle was better last year.

[Rich Paul]

No, I think, I think playoff series are about momentum. Something changes, you know, you may get into a little shooting funk. It's little things that happen. It could be a defensive scheme, it could be the team is just hot. Like it's all these different things.

[Max Kellerman]

What I thought. Well, I watched that and what I saw was Knicks got unlucky two years ago. They, they were a better team than Indiana, period. They would have beaten Indiana. They were too banged up. They were missing players. So they lost to Indiana. In the rematch the following year, Indiana ascended and became a better team than the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

I think the Knicks are, are a surface level trade away from making it to the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree. And you know who you would bring in? You would bring in some version of.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Mikhail Bridges who's a little better than he is.

[Max Kellerman]

And I'm not knocking Bridges. It's like what got me thinking about these two.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not touching my wings.

[Max Kellerman]

Both games last night.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not touching my wings. I'm not touching my wings.

[Max Kellerman]

So what are you doing?

[Rich Paul]

I think it's somewhere in the guard.

[Max Kellerman]

For vicinity because you have to make up for. Okay, okay, I, I'll go with that. The issue they have in the backcourt is you have one guy who's a defensive liability, but he has to be on the floor because he's incredible offensively and he's the engine of your whole team. And you have another guy who doesn't. Like last night when Josh Hart started hitting everything. They win the game. If Hart was a, was a 40% three point shooter, then they might not need anything. But he's not.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you need. Look again. Josh Hart is another winning player. See, I think you're underestimating the winning guys that they have on the team.

[Max Kellerman]

I love Hart. I don't want Hart to go anywhere. I love Bridges. I like these, I love their team. Yeah, these teams, I'm saying they are. They paid for a player in Bridges. They paid a certain amount. And the reason they paid that amount is when they were squinting at Bridges in Brooklyn and thinking if that's who they thought they were getting and they got a version of that that didn't ascend. Right. It's not quite as much as they need the argument.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's needed.

[Max Kellerman]

And Josh Hart doesn't shoot it well enough.

[Rich Paul]

You need things in the cupboard like draft picks. If you want to make a big splash deal down the road? You can make a big.

[Max Kellerman]

You refuse to rank. I thought it was going to go viral. Rich Paul would rank his top five shooting guards. You absolutely refused.

[Rich Paul]

No, I didn't refuse. I just don't love the top five thing. But if I had to.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, you have to.

[Rich Paul]

You named the three, right?

[Max Kellerman]

And number one, Ant. Number two, Booker. Number three, Donovan Mitchell. Who's number four?

[Rich Paul]

Those are your three.

[Max Kellerman]

And yours? Those are your three too.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

You. You said Booker over Donovan. I go with you. He's taller.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

I better shooter.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm with it. Then. Then there's Austin Reese. There's is. Is Amin Thompson. Two guard.

[Rich Paul]

Exactly after that is pretty interchangeable. It just depends on the night.

[Max Kellerman]

Tyler Herro.

[Rich Paul]

It just depends on the night. I like all those players.

[Max Kellerman]

Norman Powell.

[Rich Paul]

It just depends on the night.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so there's. So as I said, you refuse to rank the top five.

[Rich Paul]

I would say the top three shooting guards. Yeah, you. Based upon things they've done, obviously those guys are always on the all NBA team and all stars pretty much every year. But I think it depends on the night because I see guys night in and night out.

[Max Kellerman]

It's Wednesday. So what about tonight?

[Rich Paul]

Where's Shay?

[Max Kellerman]

He's a point guard.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

You wouldn't say he's a point guard.

[Rich Paul]

I would just say he's a hell of a ball player.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. See, I just want to point out I said he refused and you refused to rank the top five.

[Rich Paul]

No, I just don't like the top five things.

[Max Kellerman]

It's the same thing.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think there's a lot of really good two guards out there. If you want to say that those guys are whatever, then great. Yeah. But I think there's a. There's a.

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[Rich Paul]

Two guards out there.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll be right back. You're gonna have to put your Mr. Bias hat on for this one because.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, what. What we got?

[Max Kellerman]

Because Jalen Hurts, who was having a. Look, whatever people want to say about Hertz, they protect him in the offense, whatever. He has a great team around him. If you're telling me you have a game manager who can pick up first downs with his legs and plays out of his mind in the playoffs and in the biggest moments, that's who I want on my team, right? So I'm pro. Jalen Hurts. Except that he's on the Eagles, and I'm a Giants fan. Otherwise, I'm pro. Jalen Hurts. He had a horrible game. It's, like, historically bad. Um, so I need you to put your Mr. Bias hat on.

[Rich Paul]

I don't need the Mr. Bias hat for that. I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you. What do you. If you have a client. I know. I'm saying, like, if you have a client like Jalen Hurts, what do you tell him after a game like that?

[Rich Paul]

I think, look, players have bad games, right? So if you want to say if your client has a bad game, it all depends on the character of that client, Right. If the guy's a more quiet guy and you know, to leave him alone after he may not have performed the way he would have liked to, then you probably just give it a day, give it a night, et cetera. Some guys like to talk about it to get off their chest after the game, you know, for. In the case of this situation, you talking about a guy who holds himself accountable and moves on. So I don't have any.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have to tell him, put it in the rear view. He'll do it himself.

[Rich Paul]

No, that guy's the ultimate pro. I think you see his temperament. I think, you know, but these guys have a hard job, right? You're expected to go out there and be perfect every night. Some nights are better than others. But when a guy's wanting MVP and championship and been in two Super Bowls and Super bowl mvp. That's one guy I do not worry about. But to answer your question, it varies. I've been in situations where a guy is up all night and you're having a conversation. And it also depends on when it is regular season game versus it could be in the finals or the Western Conference finals or a playoff game. You have to have a very short memory in our league or in any professional league, because what people have to realize is the talent of all these guys is off the charts. Sure, everyone's extremely good. The differentiator is mindset. And in most cases, I tell guys coming into the league all the time, this game at this level is 90% mental. It's 90% mental because it's a roller coaster. And you have to ride the roller coaster all the way to the end. And when you ride a roller coaster, it's up, it's down, it's around, it's twists, it's the whole nine. And so I don't think it's a specific thing. I think it's more so you having and knowing the relationship of you and your client. And then the way I handle things is very matter of fact. You know, I had a conversation with a client the other day. We talked for about an hour and a half and we just talked about what, you know, focusing on what's in front of us. And it helped him. It really helped him in terms of just from a mental perspective, because these guys have to deal with. First of all, nowadays everybody has a voice, everybody has an opinion, everyone has a podcast, everyone is on tv. There's a lot of. There's a lot of takes of people saying things without knowing all of the information, right? That. And so because of that, if you have a guy that reads into that or they come home and a family member, you know, there's a lot of things that I think these guys should probably do to get away from it. But.

[Max Kellerman]

But Jalen Hurst, that's one guy. So I want to tell you a theory. I think I talked about it on our first show on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

And I.

[Max Kellerman]

Was talking about Travis Kelce. So you have to stay with me on this one. The Travis Kelce thing is interesting to me when he drops crucial passes, because I understand if a baseball player doesn't have the reflexes anymore late in his career, he becomes a guess hitter, right? He can't catch up to the fastball. He has to guess. And if the pitcher makes a mistake, he can hit it. And if he doesn't. He's not going to hit it. If a fighter is older and his reflexes are slowed, he sees the shot coming, he just can't get away from it. Okay? But a tight end who's shorthanded, who drops passes in critical situations, to me, it's not like you forget how to catch. That's not the same kind of thing. So I start looking for other reasons why that happens. And I think guys like, you know, who I trust at the free throw line in a big moment when I think of like players ever, a guy like Kobe Bryant, I look at a guy like Kobe and there was nothing in him working against himself in the sense like, I don't deserve this. Right. He believed he deserved to hit that.

[Rich Paul]

Shot and he relishes that moment.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Because he thinks he deserves it. Right. How you were telling a story about your dad. My dad's a shrink. So this is like I'm thinking psychologically, when Kelsey drops a pass, it feels to me like there's something going on psychologically, like on some level he's not aware of, it's like he doesn't. When I see A.J. brown, another guy, sure handed receiver, and his quarterbacks having an awful game and he drops a dime into his hands and A.J. brown, and there's been some static and there's been some chirping, drops the pass. To me, that's a psychological thing. That's a thing where, I don't know, in Kelsey's case, maybe he's like, man, we're just not good. We don't even deserve. I'm not saying, Travis, I'm not saying you're having these thoughts consciously. I'm wondering what's going on. And I'm thinking maybe unconsciously that's what's going on. When a guy like A.J. brown does that to me, that's symptomatic of something wrong. You know what I mean? That's not just like A.J. brown, he has good hands.

[Rich Paul]

How does that happen? In that moment I saw, he said he had accountability too. I think that's step one. He came out and held himself accountable. I think in situations when you play in a team sport and you have in any team sport, in any locker room, it's a ton of ego, as we all know. You have to have some of that to even get to the level of, of most of these guys. But then I think there's a world where I don't know how often this is done and probably next to never. I mean, we've seen it with Duos that played together that just couldn't figure it out, whether it was Steph and Garnett, whether it was Shaq and Kobe, whether it was.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, they figured it out eventually.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I'm just saying. Took Phil Jackson, basically, whatever the case may be. But then after the fact, you see guys get back together, and they would say, man, I wish we would have just.

[Max Kellerman]

I think youth is wasted on the young.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Yeah. I think in these situations, I would love for guys in all sports to really take a step back sometimes. Just take a guy to dinner, go over a guy's house, sit with him. I don't care. There's situations I've been in where it's like, I don't care if you mad at me. You think my players don't get upset at me about certain. I get situations where a player may not text you back for two days. Who. All of them.

[Max Kellerman]

Who can you talk about on the air where you're like, I knew this dude is mad at me.

[Rich Paul]

All my players have gotten mad at me, you know, in times.

[Max Kellerman]

Because of stuff you've said to them?

[Rich Paul]

Because of stuff I've said. Yeah. And in time. But we have a good enough relationship to laugh about it or to talk about it, and we move on. But I say to them, and I would say to other guys out there that I don't even represent. When you're in these situations and you have a good thing going. Right. How do you recognize the good in it? Sometimes you have to go, I just told him. I just told. Who was I talking to?

[Max Kellerman]

And you're saying AJ And Hertz don't recognize or.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. I'm just saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause it looks like that play makes you think something's broken.

[Rich Paul]

I'm saying in any situation. I think I was talking to Darius, and I was saying, Darius Garland. And I was saying, because the Cavs were in kind of like a funk, and I was saying, these are the moments where, you know, you go. And you go. And, you know, you and Donovan go have lunch, you know, go and talk, Go sit on somebody's couch, or get with Evan and get with the guy. Like, it don't have to be a big team thing, but sometimes it's just like, okay, what do we think the issue is? You know, like what? And it doesn't have to always be like this most serious thing. Sometimes it's just about getting together, the best teams, the camaraderie of it all, guys that want to get to the hotel and, you know, what time we meet in the lobby. We're going to be there at 8 o'. Clock. The guys who you at the table and you got three, four guys on the team that's fighting for the bill that leads to. I'm having an off night. My man has 47. Let me get him 50. Oh, let me get him 60. Because we like each other. And I think, you know, I'm not in any NFL locker room, so I don't want to speak on the locker room. I'm just speaking on what it takes sometimes to really recognize the good that we have. And even in life, recognizing the good that I do have and not focusing on the things I don't have would do a lot more.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's really interesting, but I think there's another dynamic at work, which is. And I'm not saying that's the case here, but I'm wondering, so real recognize, real game recognize game, right? If so, Carson Wentz had a great season. He was looking like he was going to be the mvp. They get hurt, and then Nick Foles does what he does and they win the Super Bowl. And then you could notice. And I started hearing things about locker room issues with Carson Wentz and this and that. And I was saying it on first take at the time, and I was being told I was crazy. And eventually they draft Jalen Hurts. I'm like, that's because they want him to play quarterback. No, you're crazy. And then eventually they get rid of Carson Wentz. I think a couple things can happen. You could have a issue in the locker room that metastasizes, right? But that's usually corrected. If the ballers on the team look at the quarterback and say, whatever else, he's a baller, he's like me, right? If they don't think that about the quarterback at a certain point, then that thing can get worse. They have to be able to look at the quarterback if it starts going sideways and think, we're the same, we're in the same, we're the same animal, we're both ballers. And the question with Jalen Hurts right now, and I've seen him in the biggest moments be a baller, right? But there is the issue out there, man. They help him out in the offense. They don't ask him to carry it. Is he capable of carrying it consistently? Does a guy like AJ Brown ever look sideways at Jalen Hurts and say, but he's not like that? And that's like, I think I don't know the answer to that question. I think Jalen hurts can be like that. But I wonder if AJ Brown looks at him and asks himself that question.

[Rich Paul]

All I know is if going to two Super Bowls, being a Super Bowl MVP.

[Max Kellerman]

And also could have almost been the MVP of the first super bowl.

[Rich Paul]

Against the team to a championship, has any questioning of someone being like that then I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

Is Austin Reaves like that?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

If you were his agent, how would you advise him right now?

[Rich Paul]

I don't want to play fantasy agent, but I know what you're saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Cause I want to be respectful to his agent. But what I will say is we're.

[Max Kellerman]

Not playing fantasy agents.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I would say. He's in a great spot now. A player like that playing on a stage like LA with the Lakers, you got to look at it one or two ways and you have to decide there's enterprise value playing next to a luka playing with LeBron for historically franchise.

[Max Kellerman]

Your thought team and basketball really for the Lakers.

[Rich Paul]

And then there's a world where. But I may can go elsewhere as a free agent and get every last dime right.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I've asked a lot of players about this. I'm saying like what percentage of your career earnings would you give up to have won a championship if you didn't win one? Right. And this is the answer I. Nor the answer I normally get falls between 5 and 15% because you're. And people are like, oh, they're already so rich already when you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

If p. If fans expect dudes to give up half, you know, like really all the NBA is. Is a TV show and all the playoffs and the finals are. Is a bigger TV show. So really what the fans are asking of the players is to give up tens of millions of dollars in order to appear on an even bigger TV show. And most players are competitive enough that they're like I want to win a.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Championship up to about 10 to 15% of their earnings.

[Max Kellerman]

And then they're like let me get the money situation.

[Rich Paul]

If it's a. If it's a $20 million difference over four years, right. That's $5 million a year. The. The person that are. That is a little. Not uneducated but inexperienced would say oh, he can make that up because he's. He's in la. Not really. But I do think there is a. There's a world of enterprise value that comes with right. And.

[Max Kellerman]

And personal competitive satisfaction for the rest of your life. Telling Your grandkids. You want a championship.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is just playing in LA for him.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. But then for Austin.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, for Austin. Because that's what you asked me about. But. But if there's like a $80 million difference and the cost of living is cheaper and you know, so those are.

[Max Kellerman]

Things you're describing his situation.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

There's going to be probably an $80 million difference.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

And it's going to be in a non tax state and. And it's going to be in a lower.

[Rich Paul]

It could be. So those are things where for me, in my position, I'm looking at it and I'm saying, well, you have to. Really now this becomes a real conversation because you're not making $80 million up. That you're just not.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. For the rest of your life, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

You're just not. You lose the stage. Yes. You probably won't be playing half of your games on television, but once you've had that, do you crave that or do you. You know, because I think you work so hard to get in the position that he's in, to be able to have options. And when talent is going to always have options. That's number one. Clear. But then there's a world where now I'm thinking about, you know, my family and I'm thinking about when I'm done playing and all these type of things. And the good thing about him is I don't think, I think he can play anywhere because I think for me just being around him, his lifestyle. Plays golf, Family guy, pretty simple guy, you know, loves to play basketball. It's not like over the top. So, you know, he'll fit in in.

[Max Kellerman]

A lot of places.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

How did dinner with Obama go?

[Rich Paul]

You won't believe I got the dates wrong.

[Max Kellerman]

How do you get the dates wrong? You got 15,000 people you employ everywhere. There's an entourage of people with clipboards.

[Rich Paul]

I'd rather blame myself.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Than somebody else.

[Max Kellerman]

I see. So you got. Oh, so you're throwing them under the bus.

[Rich Paul]

I am not throwing them under the bus.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a way to seem like you're not throwing them under the bus.

[Rich Paul]

I'm taking full accountability.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

That we were supposed to have.

[Max Kellerman]

You're the quarterback of your business.

[Rich Paul]

We were supposed to have dinner.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

I thought I had a different dinner that I have really very little knowledge about. Just overall, you wasn't supposed to ask me that on the air, but since you did, I'm not gonna lie to you. I Got the dates mixed up and I'm not even sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this like a dinner, Like a private dinner, or.

[Rich Paul]

I don't. I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't know. So it shows up on your schedul.

[Rich Paul]

I don't have enough information. It is very vague for obvious reasons. I don't even know where it's at, what city it's in, anything like that. I do know that the date was wrong. So I apologize for us not going to be able to get sushi at my favorite place because I thought I had a conflicting.

[Max Kellerman]

I understand that Obama takes precedent over.

[Rich Paul]

Me, for example, I'm just saying, Max, my dates was wrong.

[Max Kellerman]

Think we get Obama on the show?

[Rich Paul]

I would love to get Obama on the show. Now that is something we should really work on.

[Max Kellerman]

Work on it, but not yet at dinner.

[Rich Paul]

You gotta work on my dinner again. This is only my second game right in my rookie season.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, no, no. I'm saying, like, we don't need to bring. I'm saying you gotta plant the seed when you go to dinner.

[Rich Paul]

Fair. I'll tell him. No problem. But let me ask you this question.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

When does you know? Like, when you. When you're a Rookie in the NBA, it takes you like maybe like 20 games to start to get the speed down and the pace and the. You know all this in media because I'm a rookie and I'm embracing. I'm a rookie and I'm a coachable guy. When do you think, like, was I better today than the other day?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I'm not worried about you.

[Rich Paul]

Just reps. Just reps. Just reps. So, like, my. My golf game is just reps. And I thought I was hitting the ball pretty good, but now it's like, although I chipped yesterday, it was pretty good. Yeah, but it's such a tough. It's just a. It's just a tough game.

[Max Kellerman]

Gotta get. You gotta get time in the saddle. They say, man, you got like, there's no. No substitute for it.

[Rich Paul]

But I do have. I do have, like, guests that I think we should have on who. But I don't want to bring guests on and I don't want to. Here's the other thing. There's a reason why cards come with backs. I play my cards close to my chest. I don't play my cards face up. So I'm not telling you who on the air because once you start doing that, we have competitors out there. You think they're going to want us to have all these?

[Max Kellerman]

Come on, man. Yeah, I understand. I get it.

[Rich Paul]

All right.

[Max Kellerman]

That's not a rookie move. That's a vet move right there.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I'm like a. I'm like a. I'm a rookie, but I'm like, how old was Doug Flutie when he went to the NBA?

[Max Kellerman]

That's a good question. I don't remember.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. What about Warren Moon?

[Max Kellerman]

That was the biggest question in sports. Is Flutie tall enough to play quarterback? He'd been playing quarterback for 10 years already. Is he tall enough to play quarterback?

[Rich Paul]

I'm like a rookie that had like.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Well, Warren Moon was a whole other story.

[Rich Paul]

Well, if it was nil.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I would stay in college for like eight years and then become. So I'm like a. I guess I'm an older rookie. Right. Red shirted, red shirted, blue shirted, yellow shirted with nil. I'm shirting all the way because I'm not a pro.

[Max Kellerman]

Ready to do it again on Friday?

[Rich Paul]

Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's do it.

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