NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts.

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Debates! Plus Christmas Games, and Gifts.
Date: December 24, 2025
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this spirited holiday episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into the major NBA debates—especially the enduring rankings of all-time greats, the ever-contentious Kobe Bryant discourse, and projections for the United States men’s Olympic basketball team. The duo also breaks down the NBA vs. NFL Christmas Day games, explores the problem of tanking, and shares humorous, personal stories about holiday traditions, food, and gift-giving. Their banter is warm, competitive, and full of classic one-liners, providing listeners with both expert NBA insight and plenty of festive energy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pain and Utility of Sports Lists (01:00-08:13)

• Max raises the idea that “hierarchical thinking” fuels sports, especially when fans and analysts endlessly rank players and teams. He acknowledges Rich Paul’s distaste for lists but insists that such debates are a big part of sports culture.
• Rich Paul elaborates on his discomfort, noting the challenge in making lists because it feels disrespectful to players who didn’t make the top cut, given the different eras and team dynamics.
  • Quote: “It’s hard for me because it’s like, how can I name these guys without feeling like I’m disrespecting someone?” (19:26)
• The pair agree that judging greatness is different from simply judging who has the most skill.

2. Holiday Traditions, Cooking, and Family (01:55-08:13)

• Fun sidetrack into food: Rich Paul discusses his late mother’s legendary holiday baking, and how each guest got their own cake or pie. The two reminisce over breakfasts and the art of being a parent who is basically a “short-order cook” or “short-order DoorDash.”
• Rich shares family traditions around the winter solstice and group games.
  • Quote: “My girls are with me, they all want something different. I’m, you know… I’m a short order cook around my kids.” (03:36)

3. NBA Memorabilia Stories: Kobe, Jordan & Subway Series (08:13-14:16)

• Reflecting on the recent sale of a rare Kobe Bryant card, Rich shares his own collection stories: an authenticated Michael Jordan jersey signed at MJ’s camp, and a Kobe jersey from his last game in Cleveland, given and signed personally by Kobe.
  • Quote (on Kobe’s gift): “He had it literally signed to me. And I had that hanging up. So that’s pretty cool.” (11:14)
• Max recounts childhood memories collecting cards and his prized Subway Series subway sign shared with his brother.

4. The Kobe Bryant Legacy Debate: Top 10 or Top 3? (14:16-33:44)

• Max sets up the most heated debate in sports: Where does Kobe fit in the all-time pantheon?
  • Max: Advocates for nuance, shows how not having Kobe in a top ten isn’t ridiculous when you consider arguments for MJ, LeBron, big men like Russell, Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq, plus Magic, Bird, KD, and Duncan.
  • Quote: “Kobe could be ranked as high as number two ever—or as low as like 11. That’s the range to me for Kobe.” (27:10)
• Rich Paul: Takes a hard line that not having Kobe in your top ten is “ridiculous.”
  • Quote: “Saying Kobe Bryant is not in the top 10 is ridiculous.” (14:27)
  • He values Kobe’s mentality and psychological edge, paralleling MJ, and points to Kobe’s complete skill set and adaptability across generations.
• The duo discuss the impossible nature of lists given context, era, and the evolution of the game.
  • Rich ultimately places Kobe in his personal top three (29:53).

5. Building the 2026 US Men’s Olympic Basketball Team (35:37-45:47)

• With LeBron, Steph, and potentially KD aging out, who fills the roster?
  • Rich approaches the roster via signature shoe brands, arguing that these players are most motivated to be on the global Olympic platform.
    • Nike: Cade Cunningham, Devin Booker, Anthony Davis
    • Brand Jordan: Jayson Tatum, Bam Adebayo
    • Adidas: Anthony Edwards (Ant)
    • New Balance: Tyrese Maxey, Cooper Flagg
  • Further debates on whether Chet Holmgren, Tyrese Haliburton, Donovan Mitchell, Jalen Brunson, and others slot in.
    • Quote (on Olympic sacrifice): “The Olympic team humbles you in a lot of ways… There’s a lot of value to being there.” (49:48)
• Emphasizes the importance of fit, shooting, and willingness to sacrifice individual glory for collective success.
• Max: “Talent is one thing, but you have to be willing to sacrifice, because the Olympic team humbles you.” (49:48)

6. State of the League: International Competition & Team-Building (50:38-53:01)

• Both recognize how worldwide basketball improves: the US can’t simply out-talent opponents anymore.
  • Quote: “That’s where we are in terms of worldwide basketball. We might not have enough. Even if we take everyone we want to take on the team, we might not win.” (52:19)
• There’s acknowledgment that character and willingness to play a role are as crucial as talent.

7. NBA vs. NFL Christmas Games Showdown (61:16-64:15)

• Comparison between NFL and NBA Christmas Day slates.
  • NFL: Cowboys at Commanders, Lions at Vikings, Broncos at Chiefs — none are must-watch, per Max and Rich.
  • NBA: Cavs at Knicks, Spurs at Thunder, Mavs at Warriors, Rockets at Lakers, Timberwolves at Nuggets — much stronger lineup, with multiple “must-see” games.
  • Quote, Max: “NBA’s eating the NFL’s lunch on Christmas.” (64:15)
  • Rich: “That’s a good problem to have… Holidays, I eat Chinese food every Sunday.” (64:51)

8. Tanking & League Integrity (65:15-74:34)

• Max articulates how tanking is the inevitable consequence of incentives built into sports rules. He’s not sure how to solve it, especially with the added dynamic of legalized sports betting.
• Rich differentiates between the “Presti way” (developing and evaluating talent) and full-on process-style tanking, arguing that some forms of team rebuilding are healthier for the league.
  • Quote: “There's a Sam Presti way… not focused on losing but on development.” (67:51)
• Potential new anti-tanking provisions (top 4 pick restriction, pick protection rules) get discussed, but both hosts are skeptical these tweaks will fully address the problem.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Saying Kobe Bryant is not in the top 10 is ridiculous.”
  — Rich Paul (14:27)

• “Kobe could be ranked as high as number two ever—or as low as like 11. That’s the range to me for Kobe.”
  — Max Kellerman (27:10)

• “My girls are with me, they all want something different. I’m, you know… I’m a short order cook around my kids.”
  — Max Kellerman (03:36)

• “Talent is one thing, but you have to be willing to sacrifice, because the Olympic team humbles you.”
  — Max Kellerman (49:48)

• “NBA’s eating the NFL’s lunch on Christmas.”
  — Max Kellerman (64:15)

• “There's a Sam Presti way… not focused on losing but on development.”
  — Rich Paul (67:51)

• “I like to do it one by shoe brands because… if you’re a star player with a signature shoe, you want that platform in the Olympics.”
  — Rich Paul (41:00)

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Detailed Segment Timestamps

• 00:29–01:00 | Opening, podcast banter
• 01:00–08:13 | Lists, sports hierarchies, and family/holiday traditions
• 08:13–14:16 | Kobe memorabilia, personal stories, and the perceived value of rare sports items
• 14:16–33:44 | Kobe in the top 10/top 3 debate—breaking down all-time NBA lists, era/context, and what greatness really means
• 35:37–45:47 | Projecting the 2026 Olympic basketball roster (by shoe brand and talent pool), importance of sacrifice
• 50:38–53:01 | International basketball catching up, team character>talent
• 61:16–64:15 | NFL vs. NBA Christmas Day game offerings/scheduling
• 65:15–74:34 | Tanking in the NBA, front office philosophy, new anti-tanking rules
• 74:35–end | Holiday plans, gift-giving, humorous riffs on Hanukkah vs. Christmas, family, and closing out with more friendly banter

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Final Thoughts

This episode was equal parts sharp basketball analysis and holiday-centric fun. Max and Rich bring a high level of both expertise and personality, whether naming Olympic rosters, arguing Kobe’s place in history, or joking about the perils of holiday shopping and competing sports schedules. The “Game Over” crew proves that NBA debates never take a holiday—even if fans and players get a few gifts along the way.

Transcript

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[Max Kellerman]

All right, first of all, Christmas Eve. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas to you, Max Kellerman. Rich Paul. Game over. Subscribe. See, I do all that stuff. Subscribe to house cleaning.

[Rich Paul]

Max, you have to say, please subscribe.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no. Please.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Can't beg you to subscribe.

[Rich Paul]

We're trying to build a show.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, Listen.

[Rich Paul]

See, that's another embarrassment of riches. She's used to being on TV at these big.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have to ask for the.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, right. I'm used to building out the trunk. Okay? So please subscribe. Thank you.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, I know you don't like lists.

[Rich Paul]

But depending on what list it is.

[Max Kellerman]

Hierarchical thinking is what animates a lot of sports talk. Right? Like the reason you're watching sports is to figure out who's better. Two teams go head to head, who wins, who's in second place, who's in third place.

[Rich Paul]

No, please don't tell me you're going down this road.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, we're going. We have to go down this road sometimes, Rich. I know. Does it make it hard for you when we do this because you. Business interest?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not talking goat. Please, no goat.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it, I guess. Olympic basketball you've been talking to me about.

[Rich Paul]

The Olympics is four years away. I mean, two years.

[Max Kellerman]

Two years away. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

There's tanking. There's the Christmas games. NBA and NFL.

[Rich Paul]

Looking forward to that.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, we have some stuff to get into.

[Rich Paul]

Do you have, like, a peach? You ever had peach cobbler?

[Max Kellerman]

Of course.

[Rich Paul]

Like real peach cobbler?

[Max Kellerman]

As a matter of fact, not out.

[Rich Paul]

The store bought peach cobbler packs well.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, except that.

[Rich Paul]

That's not peach cobbler.

[Max Kellerman]

I had a.

[Rich Paul]

That's peaches. That was in a can.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, no, no, no. Like, I've had real peach cobbler. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You think you had real peach cobbler? Peaches is not here anymore. You would have had real peach cobbler. You.

[Max Kellerman]

Your mom hooked it up.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, the best. Yeah, she used to have so many. Let me just tell you something. My mom would bake cakes and pie. Like, what's your favorite pie?

[Max Kellerman]

Probably at this point in my life, it's probably cherry pie.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Michaels, what's your favorite pie? So you and Michael are coming over. This is Max's cherry pie.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Nobody touches it. This is Michael's pumpkin pie. Nobody touches it. Everybody that came over to the house had their own cake and pie. There were so many cakes and pies. And when I tell you, she used to have people calling my phone friends of mine, hey, man, your mom. I got this. I'm like, what? She was a hustler. So you haven't had a peach cobbler until you had peaches?

[Max Kellerman]

But unfortunately, I had like, you know.

[Rich Paul]

I'll get my sister Brandi to make you one. It's just the closest thing to.

[Max Kellerman]

I love it. A close friend who's. Whose mother used to do that on, like, on my birthday, if I. She would hook up some fried chicken or some. Or an apple pie or.

[Rich Paul]

You know, it really hurts the kids when they do that because my mother.

[Max Kellerman]

Would cook sweet potato pie.

[Rich Paul]

Each kid their own breakfast.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But that's not realistic.

[Max Kellerman]

No. Right, right.

[Rich Paul]

And see, I. I found out the trick. Grandparents do this type of stuff because they don't have to. They don't. They don't live with it.

[Max Kellerman]

They don't have to do it every day. Yeah, yeah. No, but I'm a short order cook around my kids. My girls are with me. They all want something different. I'm, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. I'm a short order doordash.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, me too. Really? But that's.

[Rich Paul]

I'm the best short order. I'm like, for breakfast, no one hook up French toast.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll hook up an omelet. I'll hook up all that stuff for breakfast. Then the rest of the meals they can do.

[Rich Paul]

You know, my order time on doordash very fast. I have no idea why. Because I'm lying.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're saying not from them to get to you. You're saying when you put in the.

[Rich Paul]

Order, I put the order in for the kid.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It's a real talent.

[Max Kellerman]

Takes me forever. Plus, I'm in the place.

[Rich Paul]

We won't be having doordash for Christmas. We're gonna have a really nice meal. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You're cooking the whole meal, putting it together.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not cooking with a chef's hat.

[Max Kellerman]

On and an apron.

[Rich Paul]

We'll have someone cooking, and then we're going to dinner and, you know, we're gonna go to dinner as a family.

[Max Kellerman]

Nice.

[Rich Paul]

It's gonna be great. It's gonna be nice.

[Max Kellerman]

Every culture because it's the solstice. Right. Brian Kenny used to talk about this when we do a boxing two years ago, December 21st is the shortest day of the year. Right? The solstice. Every culture from a colder climate will have some kind of holiday around there where the family gets together because it's cold, the day is short, and they all have some kind of something where everyone's coming together.

[Rich Paul]

I'm a rummy cube guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Am I a what? No.

[Rich Paul]

Rummy cube.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

I have to show you how to play. Yeah, we play.

[Max Kellerman]

Really?

[Rich Paul]

Adele and I go at it.

[Max Kellerman]

Really?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, she's really good, but it's like a no.

[Max Kellerman]

I do. I'll do the New York Times games on the app, but I'm with someone who can do them much, much, much. Yeah, you definitely are much faster than I can.

[Rich Paul]

You're the dumbest person in the house.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I'm the dumbest person in the house by far. And there's constant reminders of it. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So that mean you're not Muhammad I. Kellerman?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm not Muhammad Kellerman in my house. No, no. I'm the sparring partner. Yeah. I'm coming out of there with lumps. Yeah. Yeah. All right. You ready to do this?

[Rich Paul]

Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

Well, I wore my durag for too long, so I got these K. Can you see my lines?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you over did ragged it.

[Rich Paul]

But I don't want. I don't. I don't really want to wear the hat because the reason why I wear.

[Max Kellerman]

My durag is so the hammer is right. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Do you wear a durag sometimes?

[Max Kellerman]

No. Never.

[Rich Paul]

You could? Nah.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, like, I just get out of the shower and I put a little stuff in it. Boom, out the door.

[Rich Paul]

You'd be like Maxwell Kellerman if you wore a durag and Woke up, you tie it to the front.

[Max Kellerman]

Could you imagine?

[Rich Paul]

I mean, you could do it Christmas Eve.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a look.

[Rich Paul]

You look very Christmassy.

[Max Kellerman]

I got on my Christmas sweater.

[Rich Paul]

Is that Ralph?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. Americana.

[Rich Paul]

Ralph is just. Ralph is timeless, man. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I'm jealous.

[Max Kellerman]

Really.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I don't have that. Did they have that in a small?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. This is old. Look at this.

[Rich Paul]

That's a flex.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, this is an old one.

[Rich Paul]

Anytime somebody asks you, do they have that in a certain size? And you go, I don't know, man. This is old. That's a flex.

[Max Kellerman]

I guess, but I'm not flexing, really. I mean, it might be a flex.

[Rich Paul]

It is a flex. Because what you're saying is. I mean, I got so many. I got. I just have pieces. I mean, it's.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but really, it's. Because it's a matter of fact, this.

[Rich Paul]

That's an embarrassment of riches.

[Max Kellerman]

An embarrassment of riches.

[Rich Paul]

That's the second one. That's right.

[Max Kellerman]

We have to brand it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's the second one.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. We've been talking forever about getting into Kobe and the reactions to Kobe, because, remember, like, a week or two ago, there was this memorabilia story about a Kobe Bryant card sold for a million, too.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And we were gonna. And. But, like, first of all, do you have anything like that in your collect? I mean, you must have crazy memorabilia, right?

[Rich Paul]

Not as. You know what I have. Yeah, I do have. I have. I have a Michael Jordan. That is when you get a jersey signed, you could do this thing called getting it authenticated. So I have that authenticated by upper deck. He actually signed that. MJ had a camp back in. I worked MJ's camp in 2002.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you do when you say you worked it?

[Rich Paul]

So, funny thing is, I was a counselor.

[Max Kellerman]

So.

[Rich Paul]

So here's what happened. You got all these All Americans, right? And at this time, it was LeBron, Carmelo Luau, Ding, Indy, EB, Ricky Paulding, TJ Ford, Kurt Heinrich, Chris Thomas. Thomas.

[Max Kellerman]

Was that the year that the McDonald's All American game was in D.C. and.

[Rich Paul]

That wasn't the McDonald's All American game, that was the Jordan Capital Classic. Okay, People get that confused. I was just meeting with Deborah Lee, and she said the same thing, but it's Jordan Capital Classic. But for whatever reason, I worked the camp, and I was a counselor, and I went to school. Not school. I grew up in the same neighborhood. Jawad Williams, who played at North Carolina, who was a McDonald's All American. He grew up in my neighborhood. So long story short, I. I had the jerseys and I swapped him out of jersey for his all American.

[Max Kellerman]

Warmup. Signed?

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not signed. But I'm saying at the time, I just swapped him out. Cause I just used to like to have different things not knowing that I would be at this camp in Santa Barbara. So anyway, here I am around these all Americans and I got the McDonald's All American in my suitcase. We hanging out, we work in the camp. Guess who was on my team? I was a counselor. Lil Romeo was on my team and Marcus Jordan. They was kids. So I had the Jordan jersey signed there. And then I got Kobe's last jersey that he wore in Cleveland. Lo and behold, Kobe comes out the thing, you know, he's not really. I think he switched some shoes with LJ or something like that. And I'm not thinking nothing of it, but I asked him during the game, I was like, Cole, if you can. Because you know, if you can, I would like to get that jersey. Yeah. So he come out and he's walking like two security guards, whatever. And he's like, yo, Rich. And he had it like over his thing and he had it literally signed to me. And I had that hanging up. So that's pretty cool.

[Max Kellerman]

And those are probably valuable.

[Rich Paul]

Very valuable. And I have some other things for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

But I used to like when I was a kid, I had baseball cards. I had some valuable baseball cards. Just cause I'm old now. So when, you know, I was young, you know when you're. Enough time has passed that this guy's rookie is worth a lot or that guy's rookie.

[Rich Paul]

We used to do that. There was nothing. I had gotten to that phase of the card thing. And we used to go to every store and I met. You know what those card things is like buying scratch offs. You know how you buy.

[Max Kellerman]

You gotta see what you get.

[Rich Paul]

You're not winning. But I'm buying the fleer, I'm buying the tops, I'm buying all these different. And it's like I got like, I don't know in there. It wasn't a Michael Jordan rookie, that's for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I had like.

[Max Kellerman]

Basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I had like Verne Fleming.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But I like Vern Fleming.

[Max Kellerman]

My most treasured piece of memorabilia is probably not worth anything is. But it's my favorite, I have it framed. Is when my brother and I, my brother Sam and I went to the Subway Series in New York in the 50s, 40s and 50s Yankees versus either the Dodgers or Giants every year. Right. So it's called the Subway Series. People took the subway to either Yankee Stadium or Ebbets Field or the Polo Grounds. That hadn't happened in. Whatever it was from 1947 until. Sorry, 1957 until 2000, whenever the subway Series was between the Yankees and Mets. So we're. We're taking the train. We take the six up to. Or whatever that was at the four up to a Yankee Stadium. And in the subway station, there are these signs. Subway, like during Subway Series, Whatever, whatever. But it said Subway Series on it. So my brother tears one down, so I tore one down. I still have it. It's like it was up in the.

[Rich Paul]

Pretty cool.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

If you can get it signed, it'd be even cooler.

[Max Kellerman]

Signed by who? The mta? Who am I going to get it signed by?

[Rich Paul]

Well, if it was. Get it signed by a Met or a Yankee.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

From back then.

[Max Kellerman]

You'd have to get it signed by everybody in the. That was actually the Clemens Piazza game where Clemens throws it.

[Rich Paul]

If Roger Clemens signed it, he works the battle. I thought I would think that Kobe card's gonna go up. He paid how much?

[Max Kellerman]

1.2 million.

[Rich Paul]

It's a rookie card.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't, you know, I don't know what it is. It must be. But anyway, it led me to think about Kobe because this is like, ongoing in sports. There are some big classic sports debates, right? It's MJ or LeBron. Now it's. Was it more Belichick or Brady? Right. Like, there are these classic debates in this century, in the 21st century. And when people talk about MJ and LeBron, there's always someone who's gonna say, oh, what about Kobe? In other words, he has to be considered among the top three of all time. And then there are other people who say he's not even top 10.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's ridiculous, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

That is.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know that either position is ridiculous. What? That's what. The position.

[Rich Paul]

First of all. Hold on, hold on.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Saying Kobe Bryant is not in the top 10 is ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I mean, I could name players for whom there are arguments against Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

How? In what manner?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, MJ, LeBron, you would say. Okay, so now after MJ and LeBron, you have the bigs. What? There are a lot of bigs. For example, Bill Russell. Here are the bigs that could be named in the. That should be in the top five.

[Rich Paul]

But how are you doing this? Is this based upon what skill set.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't ever do it based upon skill set because skills always improve every generation. So that eliminates all the old players.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Kobe's skills is any generation.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure, no doubt.

[Rich Paul]

He could have played with George Mikan or he could have played with.

[Max Kellerman]

Or today or whenever.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, whoever.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course.

[Rich Paul]

So what do you.

[Max Kellerman]

And Bill Russell's skills. Skills aren't going to. But that's like in the one sport that you can measure objectively, this is the difference between better and greater. You can time track and field. Right. You can see what someone runs in the hundred. Right. In the, in the 100 yard dash. You can then compare their times across eras and say they are always getting better. Right. So Jesse Owens is not one of the 10 or 20 best sprinters ever, but he. You can't say that the 10th best sprinter in the world today who has a better time than Jesse Owens is a greater sprinter than Jesse Owens.

[Rich Paul]

That's fair.

[Max Kellerman]

So I'm talking greatness, not better.

[Rich Paul]

But okay. Yeah, in greatness. Go ahead, I'll let you finish your point.

[Max Kellerman]

Bill Russell got 11 rings as a player.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but for some reason that doesn't. We don't.

[Max Kellerman]

You can discount it. But even if you discount it, what are you going to call it?

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to discount it 5 or 6. I'm not discounting it. People seem to discount it.

[Max Kellerman]

Bill Russell. So I'm just saying here are the bigs that you can make an argument need to be top five. There's not a lot of spaces in the top five. Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Shaquille O'. Neal. Okay. Those four all have good arguments that that should be one of the top five or six players who ever lived. Okay, now you have MJ and LeBron. So now already you have six dudes who you look, Kobe and Shaq played on the same team. Shaq was, you know, if you had to compare them, you would rather have Shaq back then when they played more or less in their primes on the same team.

[Rich Paul]

But Shaq was extremely dominant. So you can't deny that. And back then, having a big as dominant as Shaq, the game was played inside out, no doubt.

[Max Kellerman]

And also Kobe would get him by the spurs, let's say, and that was really the championship. And then Shaq would dominate in the finals against a team that really wouldn't have beaten the spurs even to. So I get that. I'm just saying it's not unreasonable to argue Shaq over Kobe. That's not an unreasonable position. So once you. Because if two dudes play together when they're both more or less in their primes and one dude was the mvp, was the MVP of the finals, was the first option on offense, was like all these things. It's. I'm not saying that I would put Shaq over Kobe. I'm saying it is not an unreasonable thing.

[Rich Paul]

I would argue against is the first option part is because of how the game was played.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay? But that was the fact of the matter. Right? And then. And even when Shaq left, he won another ring with D. Wade. Right? Like, you know, so, yeah, the game was still played.

[Rich Paul]

It was starting to change, but no doubt still inside out, and that affects things.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not putting Shaq over Kobe necessarily. I'm saying for people to say that's ridiculous to put Shaq over Kobe. It's ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

That's not what I say that.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

I said it's ridiculous not to have Kobe in your top 10.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so let's. So let's. So I'm saying, here's how it gets there. MJ. LeBron not ridiculous to put over Kobe. You could. I mean MJ for sure. LeBron, I would also put over Kobe. But not ridiculous for someone to put LeBron over Kobe. Right? The bigs. Because if you put Shaq over Kobe, which is not unreasonable, you might put Bill Russell, who's the biggest winner of all time, over Shaq. Same thing with Wilt Chamberlain, who was like the original Shaq. So now already I just mentioned five dudes. Same thing with Kareem.

[Rich Paul]

This is why I don't like lists.

[Max Kellerman]

Dudes.

[Rich Paul]

But this is why I don't like lists. Because.

[Max Kellerman]

Because it forces you to make some decisions.

[Rich Paul]

No, but as you're naming all these names, it's hard to compare, first of all, ERA from era and era and era. Right. As you're naming all these names, the thing that's coming to me is like, just as a historian of the game, as somebody who has a profound respect for those that came before every other era of superstars or generations of superstars. It's just tough because.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course, that's why it's interesting.

[Rich Paul]

And it's tough without. It's hard for me because it's like, how can I name these guys without feeling like I'm disrespecting someone?

[Max Kellerman]

Right? So that's why when you say. Or when people say you're not the only one, you have to put Kobe in the top 10, it's disrespectful. Not to have him. I get that. But then there are 10 other dudes. One of them you're going to be disrespecting to put Kobe in there. My point is, let's just. I'm just going to go through to show you how you can get there. Okay. I named six where it's not outrageous that you have Kobe. Seven. Okay. So then there's Magic and Bird. Magic and Bird. Here's the argument for Kobe. Kobe was their equal on in terms of his offensive impact. I don't mean scoring. I mean overall offensive impact. And he was a better defender. So you should put Kobe ahead of those dudes. On the flip side, Magic and Bird always made everyone around them better. Kobe didn't always do that. So I'm not saying necessarily that you need to put Magic and Bird and. Or Bird over Kobe. I'm saying that is not an outrageous position. Can I ask a question either way? So now I'm up to eight dudes.

[Rich Paul]

Right. And again.

[Max Kellerman]

And if none of that's outrageous.

[Rich Paul]

No. Right. But I have to push back against that because Kobe did what the team called for him to do.

[Max Kellerman]

Mm.

[Rich Paul]

Because if you're saying Magic and Bird made other guys better, which they did. They did. But they also played with guys that, you know, you had the Showtime Lakers.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

They were screwed up. Ridiculous Celtics. Now once Kobe got Gasol and that team, no doubt different dynamic.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree. You could.

[Rich Paul]

I thought he was better at playmaking.

[Max Kellerman]

He was.

[Rich Paul]

But he's a natural born scorer. And the thing. You know, the one thing I love about Kobe that I really loved about Kobe, and this is about Mike as well too. And it's differentiate. Everybody's different is the mentality that they had, which was a. It was a psychological warfare. Right. And I hear everybody talk about, oh, the mamba mentality and things of that nature. Well, that wasn't the case when he was around. Right. And he only really dealt with very few people, but he never allowed you to get familiar with him.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So therefore, because ultimately familiarity breeds disrespectful and that's. It attributes to a lot of what you saw later on and still currently today. It's like when you go to dinner with somebody all the time, or you feel like you see somebody and they speak to you after a while, it's like, oh, that's just Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But if I see you nine times and you don't speak to me in the 10th time, you speak to me.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, it's a big deal.

[Rich Paul]

It's a big deal. Yeah, that's Mike and Kobe.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Well, okay. No, I get it. I'm saying that you said how could you not have Kobe in the top 10?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

There's KD who as a scorer is virtually unparalleled. He could score from anywhere. Right. And as was a better.

[Rich Paul]

So could Kobe.

[Max Kellerman]

But he was a better percentage scorer than Kobe. He shot it better.

[Rich Paul]

And.

[Max Kellerman]

And he's much taller. Okay. So that's an advantage. He also became Kabri.

[Rich Paul]

Don't like to say he's 7ft tall. So I won't say 7ft tall. I'm going to say he's 6, 11 plus.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. And to be like that. So do I put KD over Kobe? I do not. But if someone wants to make that argument, I can't tell them they're being ridiculous. That's an argument.

[Rich Paul]

But I have an over opinion based.

[Max Kellerman]

And then there's Tim Duncan who was Kobe's contemporary. And there's lots of strong arguments pro Duncan over Kobe. Now in the end, I think those two are close. But I'm taking Kobe. I have Kobe in my top 10. My point is I named 10 guys where you can't say it's ridiculous to put them over Kobe. That's how you don't get him in the top 10. But Rich, I disagree with those people. In the end, my assessment is he is in the top 10.

[Rich Paul]

But now let me say somebody is somebody's contemporary if they don't play the same position.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. They're still contemporary.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just asking.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, contemporary is just time based.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

So you want to say a peer. Maybe you want to compare him to his peer group and that only includes position categories. Yeah. But let me make the flip side. That's the argument why Kobe's not in the top 10. Let me make the argument why Kobe is in the top three. Right. If you said who is the most completely skilled player who ever lived, you could easily argue Kobe Bryant who took MJ's game and made technical improvements because he had a blueprint. Right. And he was able to work on that. And he had every single skill you need.

[Rich Paul]

Well, he studied Mike.

[Max Kellerman]

He studied them. No question. He also.

[Rich Paul]

And they had the same slender frame.

[Max Kellerman]

They were the same height, they played the same position. They had the same coach.

[Rich Paul]

He had the footwork. Well, I think who was this made a good. They also played in the same system.

[Max Kellerman]

Same like the triangle, the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

See, the one thing about the triangle and Cleveland Benedictine basketball coach Frank Novak. We ran a triangle in high school just so you know, Max, now, I wasn't a great player by no stretch of the imagination, but I dressed well coming out the locker room. But that's neither here nor there.

[Max Kellerman]

Until the warriors came out with that five out stuff. Triangle was like.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is what the triangle did, it simplified everything. Especially for when you're ultra dynamic, super talented, can do all things ISO score. You kind of need training wheels a little bit to kind of slow it down. And it gets you in spots where it's not so much about you couldn't still have the same amount of points. It allows you to become more efficient. It forces you to become efficient and.

[Max Kellerman]

A better teammate because you can use your ISO scoring in service of a.

[Rich Paul]

It's really a. You know, it's gonna always be a pick and roll on one side and you know you're coming off a double. Well, you're really coming off a double down on the other side. And then it goes into a pick and roll. So you're gonna always have this balance on the floor, which if you're Kobe or Mike, in that instance, when you're playing in the triangle, if you get to that spot where you have an 18 footer, you can post, they draw two, you kick. And that's why Mike was so he could kick to Paxton, he could kick to Armstrong, he could kick to. Because once you bring that help over, everything rotates and you have a shooter on that other side.

[Max Kellerman]

So that matters. So there's never been two superstars more similar in any sport ever.

[Rich Paul]

LJ was more similar to Magic, but.

[Max Kellerman]

Like Kobe, playing the same position, the same height, copying Jordan, trying to add to it. Same coach, same system.

[Rich Paul]

Well, actually LJ was a little bit different. He had all of those people. Yeah, Mike, Magic, Penny, he was Mike.

[Max Kellerman]

And Magic had a baby. That was how I saw it coming out of high school. But my point is, with Kobe, there's an argument. Not top 10. There's an argument. Look, he's basically a clone of MJ. Now, the difficulty, he can't get to number one. Because when you compare them, there are ways to compare them directly. MJ wins more chances.

[Rich Paul]

Who gave him more skill between Kobe.

[Max Kellerman]

Because he built on mj, but marginally. But MJ had better results in his league. He won more championships. Every analytic says he was better offensively and defensively. He scored more points. He was always the number one option. He won every finals MVP he ever played, et cetera, et cetera. So Kobe runs into mj. As I brought this up, I think People misuse the word emulate when they mean to say imitate. Right? Emulate really means when you try to do something better than the original. Kobe really tried to emulate mj. He didn't quite get there, but it was gutsy for him to do it. But it runs into a problem for him in terms of ever being ranked number one. But my point is Kobe could be ranked as high as number two ever or as low as like 11. That's the range to me for Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

See, the way I like to do this is. And again, I think when you. I think most people just in society looks at things and be like, oh man, I'm not going to copy that or I'm going to do it my own way. Yeah, well, to me that's idiotic because why wouldn't. If I see something great and I have the ability to get even close to that greatness, why wouldn't I do that?

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

But this is how society makes that.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's why your dude. That's why LeBron. So I would say, I would say Magic and Bird ushered in the modern era of NBA because they came along at the same time that the ABA was absorbed into the NBA. The three point shot, the game changed, right? TV contracts came in. Everyone paid attention. MJ was the greatest player of that modern era. Kobe came closest to MJ in the modern era. To me, LeBron was the first kind of postmodern player in the sense that he was the first guy to come along at that level and say, I'm not just gonna do mj, I'm not gonna try to. I'm doing something new. He combined Magic and mj. He combined the mentality with the ability to play above the rim and score and do everything.

[Rich Paul]

Interesting. You said that because you also get criticized for not doing it the way as others has once done it as well by whomever. But still, in all, I would say all those guys you're naming, they added to our game in so many different ways.

[Max Kellerman]

Where do you have Kobe ranked? Where would you rank him?

[Rich Paul]

In the end, I have Kobe ranked in my top three.

[Max Kellerman]

So it's MJ or you. For you, it's LeBron, MJ, Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's whoever you take. Give me the other guy. If you take LeBron, great, I'll take Mike or Kobe. If you take Mike, I'll take Kobe or James. Well, in a comparison, if you take Kobe, I'll take.

[Max Kellerman]

In a comparison to Jordan. Kobe is not quite there. Like they're exactly the same, except one's a little better than the other one. I don't see how you could say, like, if Kobe and Mike are available, you gotta take Mike.

[Rich Paul]

If I'm starting a basketball team, I'm taking LeBron number one. Overall, there's no if, ands, or buts.

[Max Kellerman]

That's how I feel about mj.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. If I want someone to take. And I know LJ's statistics are off the charts even with this as well, If I want the single last shot, I'm taking Michael Jordan.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

No question about it. In Kobe's case, when it comes to Kobe again, I could do either one. So when people talk to me about the goat conversation, and I said this before, I felt like the only separation for me, and this is not me putting my Mr. Bias hat on, is everyone else didn't have the expectation.

[Max Kellerman]

That's true.

[Rich Paul]

So.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, not since Kareem, not since Lu Alcindor had expectations been like that.

[Rich Paul]

For a guy, you're already coming behind greatness.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right. And then on top of that, if you don't, if you fall short in any capacity, it's a failure. And short is if you never win a championship. If you just maybe only win one championship. If you, you know, like, if you're.

[Max Kellerman]

Not in the goat conversation. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So for me, that's the thing that separates. But if we're just talking basketball in general, I'm the type of guy, hey, take who you want because I'm a build it. Who you take versus who I'm able to take will allow me to build my team a different way. You have to build a team differently for all those guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Slightly different than you. I would say if you're starting with nothing and you just want to get a team as close as possible to a championship, no matter who else you.

[Rich Paul]

Have, he's starting a team.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm taking LeBron, of course, because I'm. Because he can take the least.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But if I have even one other all star on the team, give me mj. Because anytime he had that, he never didn't win the championship in under six games, in under seven games. Rather like if you just. If you gave Mike something to work with, he was going to kill you. But he couldn't drag a team of non all stars to the finals. Like LeBron could drag a team of non all stars to the Finals, but LeBron could also play with all stars and not win the finals. You gave MJ all Stars. It's a wrap. It's a rap. He was going to win. And he not only Was he going to win? You weren't going to take him seven games. So that depends on what you're trying to do there.

[Rich Paul]

But Kobe, one team would have went.

[Max Kellerman]

Seven games in what?

[Rich Paul]

In the finals with my team, they just never had a chance to play. Who, the Rockets?

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe. Maybe they go seven. Maybe. I mean, they went seven. I think that the Knicks almost got them in six.

[Rich Paul]

No, but what I'm saying is I think that team was just built.

[Max Kellerman]

It was constructed to try to counteract it.

[Rich Paul]

People put, you know, like we could put a stat around everything, but it's just matchups. As you know, the playoffs are always about matchups. But again, I like where you're at in the top three. This idea of top 10, not in the top 10.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm saying Kobe. The possible range of places where you could put Kobe are between 2 and 11. And I would put him at. I made the argument already. And I would say if push comes to shove and I have to rank him somewhere, I probably have him around eight because, like, Bill Russell never lost a game seven in his life. High school, college.

[Rich Paul]

See, I can't. I can't.

[Max Kellerman]

What was he, 21 and oh, in game sevens or something like.

[Rich Paul]

That's the problem with that. I can't argue against that without it seeming disrespectful to Bill Russell.

[Max Kellerman]

No doubt.

[Rich Paul]

And I'm never going to disrespect, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

That's why it sounds disrespectful to Kobe. I said that. But you got to rank them.

[Rich Paul]

But you have to put some context to that.

[Max Kellerman]

Got to rank them.

[Rich Paul]

You have to put context to it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen, we can talk about this now we're on the record. Yeah, now we're on the record about this.

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[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah.

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[Max Kellerman]

I wanted to talk about something that you brought up the other day. I don't remember if we did it on the pod or we were behind closed doors. The Olympic team.

[Rich Paul]

What about it?

[Max Kellerman]

Who's on the team?

[Rich Paul]

Well, we're two years out from the Olympic team.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Who's on the team?

[Rich Paul]

Who's on the to be Olympic team.

[Max Kellerman]

Correct.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah, we did talk about that.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's going to be on the team?

[Rich Paul]

Who do you think is going to be on the team?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, if there's no LeBron, Steph or KD, there won't be because they're old.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, you can't say that about kd. I've never seen somebody love the hoop more than that guy. So he might be. He might, you know, he could still shoot.

[Max Kellerman]

So KD's been just an incredible player.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, just unbelievable. He's Mr. Basketball. There's no Mr. Basketball in the NBA. But if it was.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you know when I really thought that should be a new award, Mr. Basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Mr. Basketball Award.

[Max Kellerman]

That's not bad. I really thought he took the next, like on Golden State. Not because they won championships. They couldn't not have won the championship. They were too stacked. So to me, like, all the credit he gets for winning the. Come on, man. You stacked the deck. But what I did see from KD that year was he became an elite defender and an elite passer. I thought. I thought he. I thought, like no one ever talks about his overall game at Golden State. Got to absurd levels, in my opinion. You know, like he became a guy. Never think of KD as, you know, this great passer. He was on Golden State. He could do everything.

[Rich Paul]

Well, KD's a basketball player, so people can stop whatever. KD slander, He's a basketball player. End of discussion. He's a basketball player.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You may not like this, that the third. The man's a basketball player.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? But I do think there's always a thing with him where, like, given his ability and his, like, there's talent and skill. Talent is what you're Capable of skill is how you refine that. Right. Both with kd.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I was about to say. What are you talking about?

[Max Kellerman]

Both with kd. Both with. Put him like he should be number one. But he's not normally considered that way.

[Rich Paul]

I never forget while we on the subject of kd, KD might have been a junior in high school. And AI used to have this softball game, like a celebrity softball game in D.C. and we used to all stay at the Ritz 22nd EM Ritz. So in the Ritz there's also. I think it was an equinox in there with a court. So quite naturally you got all these NBA players, current NBA players. It's a court there. People go down to the gym, whatever. So the night before somewhere we were at. And KD pulled up. He was still in high school. So we like where y' all at? We had to Ritz.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Come through. We play some pickup, whatever. He comes the next day and we. And we're. Everybody's in the gym kind of just hanging out, playing pickup. And when everybody.

[Max Kellerman]

Was he starting feet at the time.

[Rich Paul]

Or 6:11 plus he was at least 6:9 for sure. But the handle.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Crazy.

[Rich Paul]

We like, come on, man.

[Max Kellerman]

It's not even fair. This is ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

And he went on to do whatever, but at that very moment he could have played in the NBA right then and there.

[Max Kellerman]

He also like was an influence. Like guys like Wemby who are doing what they're doing, how could they not have been influenced by kd, you know, by a guy that size doing those things?

[Rich Paul]

But you know, like, if you see. I like to talk basketball from Cities. Right, right. D.C. and Seattle. When you're talking about basketball players go to DC and go to Seattle. There's guys that's there that's not in the league, I can guarantee you, that are extremely tough. Steve Francis. The franchise don't get enough credit because he was insane.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Must see Stevie franchise for sure. Then you go to the Detroits and the Chicago's and the Philadelphias and you have la obviously has a ton of. And so they become products of their environment. So that's how a guy 6' 11 with a pat like KD, you can have that.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so getting back to the Olympic.

[Rich Paul]

Team, but the Olympic team, there's no.

[Max Kellerman]

Steph, probably no LeBron. And let's say there's no KD. Let's just say because he'll be 100 at the time by then he'll be almost 40. Who.

[Rich Paul]

That's not old.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, let's just say no. KD. Okay. France, Germany, Serbia, Canada, all got better and deeper. You and I have discussed the fact that they play together more, they think about this type of stuff more. So the issue is, no matter what names the United States puts out there or look at those names, they're still running up against teams. Right. And they have to figure out how to be a team. All that said, who is going to be on the American team?

[Rich Paul]

So if I'm looking at the American team the way I would look at the team, first and foremost, I'm going to start with guys that have a signature shoe. Because anytime you have a signature shoe, you want to be on that Olympic platform.

[Max Kellerman]

I see you're motivated to perform.

[Rich Paul]

You want to be on that Olympic platform.

[Max Kellerman]

But isn't that. Wait, isn't that an impediment to playing together as a team, or. No. Are you saying it's an incentive?

[Rich Paul]

No, it's an incentive. So this is just how I'm looking at it from my experience. So I would say let's take the Nike signature shoe guys. Kate, Devin, Booker. LeBron's not there, so he won't play.

[Max Kellerman]

So take that finger away. There you go.

[Rich Paul]

So it's those two, and then he's not on Nike, and he's not gonna.

[Max Kellerman]

Be on the team.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm doing Nike right now.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, okay. You're going through the different brands. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

But then I'll do the legacy guys that's been on the brand. They may not be signature shoe guys, but they've been on the brand, and they've been on the Olympic team for a while now. I'm taking AD if he decides he wants to play. Okay, so those are your three Nike guys.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna stay in that brand. I'm gonna go to Brand Jordan now. So my brand Jordan guy is gonna be Jayson Tatum if he decides to play. We all know what happened. Just four guys and the only other Jordan guy. I won't use this other guy yet. So let's just say those four guys. Tatum, cade, Booker. Booker, A.D. okay.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. So far, so good.

[Rich Paul]

Now let's go to Adidas for right now. I'm only naming Ant for right now. So that's five guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Let's go to New Balance. New Balance should have two, probably Tyrese Maxey and Cooper Flagg.

[Max Kellerman]

Yup. So far, those are seven guys you want on the team. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Those are seven guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Under Armour, you only have Fox now, and he doesn't make the Olympic team. He didn't play before.

[Max Kellerman]

I like Fox, but he not. Not on the Olympic team.

[Rich Paul]

So could be a name, but we'll come back there.

[Max Kellerman]

Chet, if you. I want Chet on the team by then especially.

[Rich Paul]

It's 12 spots, so now we only have five left. Oh, I forgot one. Go back to Brand Jordan. Bam. Just eight. He just want to go meta.

[Max Kellerman]

Bam is really good. I don't want to talk about being disrespectful. I don't want to be. These are all excellent players.

[Rich Paul]

Disrespectful.

[Max Kellerman]

Those are all excellent players. If I'm thinking about the Olympic team, I'm thinking about the best players from the United States. And also you have to think about how they might play together.

[Rich Paul]

Eric, first. First of all, this is where. Max, you've been on TV for a long time. Yes, but this is what I do for a living. Okay, just let me just.

[Max Kellerman]

But are you doing it commercially? You're trying to win?

[Rich Paul]

I'm doing it matter of factly.

[Max Kellerman]

And you're saying this is the reality. This is.

[Rich Paul]

What's. This is. This is. I'm breaking it down. I'm not being biased here. I name guys that I represent that I'm not placing on the team. So I'm not being biased. I'm being honest.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just saying, when you project out two years.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm predicting now, I think Chet is going to be in two years versus what Bam might be. Give me Chet.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not knocking Chet. Yeah, but air exposters to coach. Bam just won a gold medal.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, I see what you mean.

[Rich Paul]

But also, you need Brolic.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. You need some muscle.

[Rich Paul]

There's eight guys. There's four spots left. There's four spots left.

[Sponsor Voice]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Now, out of those four spots, if we wanted to just have a pool.

[Max Kellerman]

Donovan Mitchell.

[Rich Paul]

You could say Donovan, but where does he fit amongst the guards?

[Max Kellerman]

You have a crowded backcourt.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, you could say Donovan.

[Max Kellerman]

Indiana.

[Rich Paul]

You could say Darius. You could say. I'm sorry, Tyrese. Halliburton.

[Max Kellerman]

Halliburton.

[Rich Paul]

Halliburton. Halliburton. That's nine. He was on the last team, so that's not.

[Max Kellerman]

Halliburton's gotta be there.

[Rich Paul]

So there's only three spots, right? That's nine people. So there's only three spots. And out of those three spots, you know, do you go a extra big?

[Max Kellerman]

Probably need it.

[Rich Paul]

You can never have enough wings.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Right. So now when you think about it from that perspective, if I know Eric.

[Max Kellerman]

Spoastra, you got to see how some of These recent draft picks pan out by then.

[Rich Paul]

100%. Yeah, but also you got guys that you know. Right. Like shooting matters in the Olympics. It just does. You gotta be able to make shots in the Olympics. So I'm gonna go way out on the limb here when you talk about your guard play. We'll put a pool of guards, we'll put a pool of wings and a small pool of bigs.

[Max Kellerman]

All right?

[Rich Paul]

Now I'm not saying that these guys just.

[Max Kellerman]

No, you're just saying here the. You can't.

[Rich Paul]

So you want to put Donovan in that situation? Yep. Do you put Brunson in that situation?

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. As a matter of fact, I don't see how you can avoid Brunson.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you can because of size, but Brunson's so good.

[Max Kellerman]

Just on merit. I think he's gotta be there.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so you got six' five, you got six' six, six' eight. And who else did we name?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know who you're talking about. At six' eight, six' eight, you're talking about.

[Rich Paul]

Cade is six' eight.

[Max Kellerman]

Cade Halliburton.

[Rich Paul]

Six. Five is Halliburton. Maxie's six' three.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Ant six. Six.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep. Ish.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Six' five maybe.

[Rich Paul]

Booker. Six' six.

[Max Kellerman]

Uh huh. Also six' five, Maybe six' four, six' five.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm just saying like. So where do you.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. All I know is I think it's like your top 10 with Kobe. I think Brunson's in there. By hooker. By crook.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you also a Knicks fan and I love Brunson, but I'm just saying.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just like on the merits. I think he's gotta be in there.

[Rich Paul]

And also I'm not sure because you only got three spots.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

Because you can make. You can make. Look, there's nothing but top talent. These guys been on the select team. Garland's been on the select team. Mitchell's been there. Fox has been there. Brunson has been there.

[Max Kellerman]

Who are the other bigs?

[Rich Paul]

Austin Reaves has been there.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Right. I'm going to give you a name that you're not even thinking about, but I'm just going to throw it out there, okay. Because we're talking about two years from now. Khan. Canuple.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he's. By the way, he's just yesterday, I think fastest to 100 and threes made or something like that.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying when you think about, oh, here's another name. Jalen Johnson.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, see, Jalen Johnson. I would say Jalen Brunson. Jalen Johnson to me is a yes. Yes. So you're saying now you got to get a big.

[Rich Paul]

So now you only have one spot left.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep. And you need a wide body or someone with some.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you just said Chet.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's Chet. Oh, I see. Yeah. Chet's got to be there. So a bam has to be there. You're right.

[Rich Paul]

You need some muscle.

[Max Kellerman]

You need some muscle.

[Rich Paul]

So. So I like to do it one by shoe brands because. Yeah, that's just what I know you're.

[Max Kellerman]

Thinking about somehow monetizing this whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just saying. It's just if you. If you. A star player with a signature shoe, I mean, you want that platform in the Olympics, your partners want that platform for you, et cetera. And then we haven't even gave guys like Jaylen Brown, Ahman Thompson.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just saying, if you want shooting, you're not going to take Thompson. And you got enough guys who can.

[Rich Paul]

The defense wins championships you have to look at. But I say all that to say we just named. Oh, we didn't name Castle.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm saying that's why you have to see two years from now what.

[Rich Paul]

But this is why Harper and all.

[Max Kellerman]

These guys, like, you got to see what it turns into.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is the league is in good shape. First of all, we just naming all these people that we. That we. And it's more. Right. We just. We didn't name Paolo.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

There's a lot of guys. Paolo's what you mean. He's just.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. I'm just saying there aren't infinite spots. So there's gonna be.

[Rich Paul]

But again, we're also not thinking about the guys. It's in la. These guys live in la. Do I wanna play on the. Do I wanna travel all these different places?

[Max Kellerman]

You gotta have guys who wanna be there.

[Rich Paul]

So you gotta have guys who wanna be there. And that's Grant's biggest job. It's like, hey. Cause it sounds good right now.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

You don't know if somebody's wife becomes pregnant. You don't know if family trips.

[Max Kellerman]

A fine. Like to me, like when you start talking about. That's like almost like alternates that you need to see if ideally you have your list. And then you have guys who you plug in if this guy doesn't want to do it or that guy gets hurt or whatever.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, there's. I'm just thinking about the talent within the league, the young talent and then here's the other thing about the Olympic team. Talent is one thing. You can have all the talent that you want, but you also have to be willing to sacrifice because the Olympic team humbles you in a lot of ways. I mean, you look at Tyrese Halliburton, the type of person he was, allowed him to sit there on that team and get DNPs the whole time, but yet still, like he said, I got an A on the on the team project, and I didn't really do much. But that experience. Right. The following year, he went to the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So there is a lot of value to being there, especially when you had the vets on that team that you had with KD, Steph, and LeBron. So once they get through the talent pool, now you have to then start aligning with the character of these guys. And are they. And you have to ask these questions, hey, if you're on the Olympic team, are you willing to be on this team and not play? Cause, you know, I was there when LeBron, Mello and D. Wade. D. Wade actually played a little bit more. And with that whole situation, which they should have played and they came in, I think they finished the worst they ever finished that time. So there's a lot of sacrifice that also comes with being on the Olympic team. But what I would say to any guys who can play on the Olympic team, the select team, if you get the opportunity, you should definitely do it because it adds something to your professional toolbox. Right. Going forward in your career, like, getting that experience. As much as it is about your country, I get that and that you want to lead with the pride of playing for your country. But there is something that adds to your toolbox of professional.

[Max Kellerman]

And things have just. And things have just changed, man. Like years ago, you could trot out those names and go, that's enough. We should win. Even if the other teams play more like teams.

[Rich Paul]

Not anymore.

[Max Kellerman]

We should win. That's not the case anymore. The guys we just mentioned, I don't know that we win. I don't know that we win.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you can only focus on I don't know. But here's the thing. You don't know. Yeah, right. We don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

That's where we are in terms of worldwide basketball. We might not have enough. Even if we take everyone we want to take on the team, we might not win.

[Rich Paul]

Well, the redeemed team, you was like, oh, that team is definitely winning, but.

[Max Kellerman]

That'S not where we are right now.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'M saying. But the redeemed team didn't think that way. They went into that saying, we're not underestimating anybody.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And those guys were there the whole time. You couldn't deny that team. Now you have so much richness of talent. It's going to be less about the talent and it's going to be more about your willingness to sacrifice.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Max Kellerman]

Before we get out of here.

[Rich Paul]

Wait. Do you do all your Christmas shopping yet? Are you.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me ask you something.

[Rich Paul]

I feel rushed.

[Max Kellerman]

When was the last time you chose a gift for anyone?

[Rich Paul]

What you mean? I just. I do it all the time.

[Max Kellerman]

You personally or an assistant or. I haven't chosen a gift.

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean?

[Max Kellerman]

This is all by myself.

[Rich Paul]

Everett, this is an embarrassment of riches. This is the third one.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I don't own and it's a flex. No, I like to get out there and get to it. I like to get out in the field.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know what to get people. I don't know what to get people.

[Rich Paul]

I got an off topic question for you.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah?

[Max Kellerman]

Thought that was off topic.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. When the weather. When the weather says there's 100% of rain or there's 50% of rain or 30% chance of rain, what do you think?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, no, I know the answer to this because it's been out there now the last year or so. It's that. It's that what 30% chance of rain means, what do you think most people think that it's a 30% chance that you will experience rain. Yes, but that's actually true because it's over a certain geographical area. 30% of that area will experience rain. Therefore you're 30% likely to experience rain if you live in that geographical area, depending on where you are. What it doesn't mean is it's only 30% likely to rain anywhere. What it does mean is it. It will rain over 30% of the area. If I'm getting that correct. That's what I've learned on reels over the last six months or whatever.

[Rich Paul]

I think you cheated. You're not that smart, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I told you, I got it from reels popped up on my.

[Rich Paul]

That is true. Yeah, I learned that, but I learned that not from reals.

[Max Kellerman]

From who?

[Rich Paul]

Who did I learn that from?

[Max Kellerman]

Someone else who saw it on reels. Let's face it.

[Rich Paul]

No, I. No, no. I think I learned it from. Was it a driver? I learned it from.

[Max Kellerman]

Trust me. He saw it on me.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I learned it from somebody. But I thought it was very interesting. Cause this whole time we grow up, and it's like, there's a 30% chance of rain.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like, oh, it's 70% chance it's not gonna rain, Right?

[Rich Paul]

But that also makes sense to why you could be. When I was a kid, you could be on one side of the street and it's not raining, and it's raining on the other side of the street. That it makes so much sense.

[Max Kellerman]

When you ask me about holiday shopping. You know what the problem is? What if you have kids? If you're Jewish and you have kids, the Jews, we made a big mistake when it came to Hanukkah, okay? Now, Christmas used to be 12 days of Christmas, right? When Coca Cola commercialized Christmas in this country, it turned into, like, one day of commercial extravaganza, right? Now, the Jewish parents in this country were like, okay, our kids are all gonna want to do Christmas. It's the greatest day in the world. Look at this thing, right? So Hanukkah's not like an important religious Jewish holiday. I think it is an important holiday. It's a secular holiday, really, that commemorates the struggle and uprising of oppressed people. That's all good. But it's not an especially important traditionally day in the Jewish calendar or days in the Jewish calendar. But the Jewish parents are like, aha. We have Hanukkah. It's around the same time as Christmas. That's kind of gonna be like our Christmas. They made a fatal mistake, Rich. They were like, okay, now Christmas is one day, right? There are eight days of Hanukkah. Kids will get presents on eight days. But what they did, without realizing it, is they turned the Super Bowl Christmas into the World Series. They diluted it by breaking it up into eight days. Like, the reason the World Series could never compete with the super bowl is until the deciding game, it's not for all the marbles. Super Bowls. All on one day. Just like Christmas. It's perfect. All on one day.

[Rich Paul]

So do you feel pressured? Do you even buy gifts for parents?

[Max Kellerman]

It makes it worse because you gotta buy eight nights of gifts for kids. It makes it worse because on eight nights of gifts, one of them is book night. They're not psyched to get the books. When I was a kid, I would get, like, socks or something. Come on, man.

[Rich Paul]

My dad stopped buying me gifts at, like, 10 years old, right. So I never was really big on holidays.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you have a Christmas tree at all?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we had a Christmas tree.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you have presents wrapped underneath it?

[Rich Paul]

Maybe one. Whoa.

[Max Kellerman]

Who did the wrapping?

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean? Before, as a kid?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, as a kid. When you were a little kid?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah. My dad was. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. We had gifts. We had gifts to the. I had such a juxtaposition in my life. Cause I know people be like, well, wait a minute. I thought he was. It was such a juxtaposition of what? Of, like, me, my sister and brother. Sisters. Brother. In my early ages, even though my mom was struggling, my dad made it like, a thing. So we would have our own set of gifts, right?

[Max Kellerman]

And my friends. He was a store owner.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But my friends would come over and they would be like, wow, y' all have all these gifts. And, you know, my dad. My dad was a store owner, but my dad was. He was. He was. He was a man's man. So. But then as I got older. When I say older, I'm talking about, like, 10, 11. Things went like this. And my dad was like, no, if you want certain things, then you have to work to go and get it. So I would spend the night over my Aunt Linda and Uncle Warren's house, or I was always somewhere else during the holiday, and people were nice enough to at least have me one box. And again, you know, I'm moving around. I'm getting stuff all throughout the year. So I really wasn't crazy about gifts like that.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But it changes when you have kids.

[Max Kellerman]

So you. I'm saying. And I have daughters.

[Rich Paul]

Well, daughters you screw.

[Max Kellerman]

I know what these girls want.

[Rich Paul]

Here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Who could possibly help.

[Rich Paul]

I can help you with daughters. I have. My daughter's 23 years old. I can help. It goes in phases. It goes in phases.

[Max Kellerman]

I got 17, 14 and 11. Almost 11 now.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you're on the death row of.

[Max Kellerman]

Dude, I don't know what to get these people. I don't like. Do you still know what to get anyone?

[Rich Paul]

Actually, wait a minute.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know what to get anyone.

[Rich Paul]

Here's why you have to do it this right.

[Max Kellerman]

You actually sit there and think, my son, I know he'll like this. My daughter, I know she'll like that. None of your assistants or staff or no one does that for you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, my office helps me order stuff, require it.

[Max Kellerman]

But you're the one who makes the choice of what to get.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you also have to like.

[Max Kellerman]

They even tell me what they want. I put it in my notes app. Hey, dad, you know what? And then I can't find out the.

[Rich Paul]

Reason why this is important. Just like I told you right now, it's Christmas Eve. You have to get this right, because tomorrow we have a slew of NBA games. Oh, yes, and you have a slew of NFL games. By the way. Do you remember what I told you? Yeah, you're going to Florida. You cannot just be there glued to the tube.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, but this is what's interesting right now to me. If you, you know, everyone's like NFL, wherever they go, they take over. They're invading, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Well, not this year.

[Max Kellerman]

Christmas. And like, oh, watch out, NBA. When I look at the offerings of the NBA versus the NFL, here are the Christmas games. Ready Here. Let's start with the NFL Cowboys commanders.

[Rich Paul]

Cowboys should win.

[Max Kellerman]

Skip it. It doesn't mean anything.

[Rich Paul]

But you still watch the Cowboys. I'm not watching Christmas.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm watching Cowboys and Commanders. And you got to pay attention to the family. I'm not watching Cowboys, Lions and Vikings.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's a hold up. Okay, let's go back.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So the Cowboys Commanders game is a family game, so you can barely watch it.

[Max Kellerman]

You can put it on wallpaper.

[Rich Paul]

And that's time with the family.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Lions at Vikings. Time with the family. Okay, okay.

[Rich Paul]

Time with the family. You're doing well.

[Max Kellerman]

The one that you might want to watch, but just because you want to check out how the Broncos look is Broncos at Chiefs. I'm telling you this.

[Rich Paul]

No Mahomes.

[Max Kellerman]

No Mahomes. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Time with the family.

[Max Kellerman]

Time with the family. Now look at the NBA games.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, wait a minute. Before you say, does any of those coincide with the NBA games? Like, same starting times.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I don't have the schedule in front of me.

[Rich Paul]

I know the Cavs play the Knicks at 9am our time. Cavs at Knicks, 12am your time. I mean, 12pm your time.

[Max Kellerman]

Cavs at Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

You have to watch that.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a must see. That's must see TV.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, that's cool for me because it's 9:00am I can.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, your hometown. In my hometown. And by the way, crazy what's happened with the Cavs this year. Like the Knicks and the Cavs look like these two are emerging, but they.

[Rich Paul]

The best thing to do in that situation is not to panic. They just have to weather the storm back to the can you stand the rain? They just have to stand in rain.

[Max Kellerman]

Spurs at Thunder.

[Rich Paul]

Must watch.

[Max Kellerman]

Must see tv.

[Rich Paul]

That is. Sorry, family, but I have to watch this.

[Max Kellerman]

That's two. But that's a great type of Mavs at Warriors. Now look, Mavs at Warriors is not must see tv.

[Rich Paul]

But you want to watch.

[Max Kellerman]

It's better than anything the NFL is offering. That's number three on the NBA. Rockets at Lakers. Yeah, yeah, you're watching that.

[Rich Paul]

Watch that game.

[Max Kellerman]

So now Mavs at Warriors is number four out of the four we've mentioned.

[Rich Paul]

I'll be at dinner.

[Max Kellerman]

But still better than anything the NFL has. T Wolves at Nuggets.

[Rich Paul]

You want to see that game too?

[Max Kellerman]

So the worst.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Steph Curry against Cooper Flag is the. Is the worst offering that the NBA gives you on Christmas. That's amazing. That's an amazing lineup. You could argue. I think there are two must see games. Two. I'd like to see games like Cavs at Knicks, spurs at Thunder, Must see and rock and roll. T Wolves at Nuggets. Like to see Mavs at Warriors. Yeah, not bad.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you want to see what? Well, the warriors are always Fun to watch.

[Max Kellerman]

NBA's eating the NFL's lunch on Christmas.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they paid him back for what they did to the cold crush last year. Yeah, because last year they came with the juggernaut. Yeah, you couldn't beat that. No, the Texans. Beyonce at halftime.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that was crazy.

[Rich Paul]

Like you extravagant. That's cheating. Yeah, Goodell, he came with the but.

[Max Kellerman]

Damn. I know. It's the way it works out too, but no, but NBA.

[Rich Paul]

But. But here's the thing. It's a good problem to have. Hopefully you're not too stuffed by the time because I don't get stuff you get like the holidays.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, first of all, to be a Jew on Christmas is Chinese food all the way. It's one of the great traditions.

[Rich Paul]

I eat Chinese food every Sunday, like.

[Max Kellerman]

Christmas is for Jewish people. Is like, it's a great day, Chinese food, watch the games. It's awesome.

[Rich Paul]

So you never had like a.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but no, you go to friends houses. Like you get an invite to Christmas to friends houses. That's nice. You know, but it's nice when you don't.

[Rich Paul]

Also, did you see Sham's report on the tanking stuff?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, the tanking stuff, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

What's your thoughts there? Cause I know what I think, but I want to hear that.

[Max Kellerman]

Every sport, in any game, you set up a game with rules. Competitive players will look to exploit the rules. Right? So like in baseball, balls and strikes are there to force the pitcher to throw something hittable to the hitter and to force the hitter to swing at it. Right. But of course that gets manipulated. So hitters are looking to draw walks and that makes the game worse because it takes too much time. There's no action. But that's the exploitation, unintended consequence of a rule. Same thing in the NBA. A foul is there that results in a free throw to incentivize the defense, to punish the defensive player for not letting the offensive player work. You know, but of course that gets manipulated by offensive players. James Harden, Luka Doncic, they look to draw fouls, right? I mean, everyone does, but especially guys like that. And there's an answer to like the foul free throw thing. You can instruct your refs, if you think the offensive player is looking for the foul, don't call it. I think that would make the game better. I really do. I think they should do that. I don't know what to do about tanking. I don't know how you. Because, for example, it's a different sport. But I'm a Giants fan and this is not really a problem in the NFL. I hope the Giants lose every game because at this, the season's over. I want to draft.

[Rich Paul]

They can take Ravel Reese.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Or, or, or trade out of the. You can get him. Trade out of the first, get your linebacker, get a corner. Get what. Whatever you need or take. You get a lot. If you have the number one overall pick and you don't need a quarterback, you can trade down and accumulate draft capital. Get three players you want out of that deal. So I'm incentivized as a fan. What are front offices thinking? Right. In the NBA, of course. So I don't know how to take that incentive away from teams to tank.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I would say. I would say when you're in Adam's position, you always have to try to do Things to increasingly protect the integrity of the game.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And as much as people would focus on tanking. Well, yeah, that's one aspect. Tanking is like. Tanking is like going to a friend's house. You're not gonna eat everybody's cooking. People tank in different ways.

[Max Kellerman]

So what do you mean tank in different ways?

[Rich Paul]

There's a Sam Presti way of. I wouldn't say he tanked. I would say that he knew this.

[Max Kellerman]

Year is a rebuild.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he didn't really. He didn't put a focus on winning every game. He put a focus on being able to evaluate talent while losing. But they didn't play. They didn't just come in and just half ass a game. He was evaluating the talent to a level in which he's seeing guys. Character traits. He's seeing guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, are you saying that Presti. This makes sense to me, but are you saying that Presti is not focused on losing? No, but the priority is development. This, this and this. And if you win the game, great.

[Rich Paul]

You win the game.

[Max Kellerman]

But if you lose the game. So you're still competing.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You're competing with understanding. We don't have enough talent as a collective to win every game or maybe not even to make the playoffs.

[Max Kellerman]

But we want to be competitive. Priority every night.

[Rich Paul]

But we're going to be competitive. We're going to play the right way. He's allowing the coach to work through mistakes. He's allowing his star player to build. So that was one instance hinky. In the other case with the process was another way. That's the difference between my mom's macaroni and my aunt's macaroni.

[Max Kellerman]

But clearly Presti's way is preferable. He's a better GM than he can.

[Rich Paul]

Take my mom's macaroni or anybody in the world. But then when you add this dynamic of betting. Right. And when you get to the end of the year where teams aren't necessarily. They know they're not going to make the playoffs and things like that, draft picks and where you sit in the lottery order and things like that. Because now we have betting. You have to find different ways to. This is not what I know. This is just what I suspect. I didn't get your analysis. I have not made any calls about this yet to get further updated. I'm just understanding what was out there from yesterday. So with that being said, I'm thinking our league is looking at this holistically and they're saying how can we put things in place that protects us holistically it's not going to necessarily. It's not going to necessarily take it all the way out.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know how you can legislate tanking out. I don't see how you can do it.

[Rich Paul]

You can't take it all the way out.

[Max Kellerman]

You can, but I haven't figured that out.

[Rich Paul]

But you're going to be able to monitor it in a way that keeps the integrity of the game. Because if I know anything about Adam and I know what he cares about is the brand of the NBA and the integrity of our game. And that's why I always say to the players, don't look at yourself as just a player on a team. And I know this is crazy because you're like, well, we're not really. No, you are a partner. You have to look at yourself as a partner because there's a thing called the bri, which is basketball related income. Everyone has a responsibility and a benefit from that. Basketball related income.

[Max Kellerman]

You want the pie to grow.

[Rich Paul]

You want the pie to grow. So your role in the partnership is to come out every night, give your all, represent the team, represent the brand.

[Max Kellerman]

Talk to the media, all this.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, all those things matter. Right. And when you talk about the faces of the league or the face of the league, it comes with a lot of responsibility, night in and night out. We just seen LeBron the other day say, well, although I'm honored to play.

[Max Kellerman]

On Christmas Day, I'd rather be with my family. And that causes a lot of, well, you are the.

[Rich Paul]

But when you are the face of the league, your responsibility to being that face of the league is the marquee. Yeah. You're going to play two.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you have a problem with LeBron saying that, or you think he's just being honest?

[Rich Paul]

Listen, LeBron is in year 23, right. He's earned the right. He could have a sleeping bag on the bench for all I care. People talk about him eating fruit, doing a listen. And I'm not just. Again, when you talk about critique, and I don't sugarcoat anything for any of.

[Max Kellerman]

The guys on this show about. I didn't like how he was fraternizing with the Phoenix Suns in that game.

[Rich Paul]

No, I didn't either.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. We said.

[Rich Paul]

We talked about it, so we move on. But he's earned the right. He's not saying that. It's not like he's being what you call it, like, I forget the name, but it's not like he's brushing it off. He's just saying, hey, you know, he's.

[Max Kellerman]

Just answering a question on it honestly. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But if you're asking me how I honestly feel, this is my 21st Christmas Day game.

[Max Kellerman]

So wait a minute. So how do. Do you have an opinion on how to try to fight against tanking? Are there any. You can't legislate it out totally, but can you?

[Rich Paul]

I always said I feel like holistically we should have thresholds as it pertains to every organization. And I think that as I talk to people around the league, whether it's at an ownership level, whether it's at a president level or GM level, et cetera, I will say to you, everyone every day is trying to figure out how to be better as an organization, putting product on the floor and just with everything else from medical to are we using AI to our benefit? Everything. So I'm not saying that I don't know if there's a world where I have an answer for that. I will say it depends on how you're approaching it. If you're approaching it from a development perspective, I think that is positive for the league. I think that with everything that's happening in youth sports and the fact that youth sports in America is broken, it is broken. The more development you can get, the better. So if we're in the lane of development, that's one thing. If you're just trying to get however many picks, then that's a whole nother conversation.

[Max Kellerman]

His report was no team can be in the top four two years in a row.

[Sponsor Voice]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

New pick protection rules and locking positions after March 1st. Like I, you know, I mean, I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't even like that top four two years in a row because what if you made a deal? I think the number even more than tanking, the problem the league has is player movement is actually not fluid enough because you have to match contracts exactly.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's the second apron issue right there. But with that what Shams reported, what was that yesterday? In the event you won't get all of that, that's just like kind of throwing out probably what they're talking about, I imagine. And I missed his call this morning, but I imagine that's what it is. And I know it wasn't nothing important because there was no text follow up. So. But yeah, I think you would get some of something. You're not gonna get all. And I don't like the top four because in that case, if you Boston, hell, we got Jayson Tatum and Jayden Brown two years in a row. I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

So, yeah, so it stops good GMs from exploiting bad GMs as much as it does tanking. So before we get out of here real quick, Christmas, you have plans, obviously. Like, where do you do this thing? You got kids. What are you doing?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, kids. I watched them open up. Well, again, my kids are like, my son wants money. My other son wants send them cash.

[Max Kellerman]

Like you're his grandma.

[Rich Paul]

My daughter is. And I tell my kids, like, listen, I told my older kids, get one thing this year.

[Max Kellerman]

All right? Okay.

[Rich Paul]

One thing we're not doing. Because you get stuff all year round.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And it's like, I never really cared for it to be only about gifts, you know? I do understand. Let's spend some time together. Let's have some meaningful conversations at the table and not just be in the phone. We're going to dinner. We're gonna go to dinner. So that'd be great. And so we'll spend time together.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, listen, Merry Christmas.

[Rich Paul]

Yo. Merry Christmas to you, too.

[Max Kellerman]

Thank you very much.

[Rich Paul]

When I watch games, I'll be watching games.

[Max Kellerman]

All day.

[Rich Paul]

I'll be watching games.

[Max Kellerman]

And when I say all day, I mean all day.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I'll be watching games, but I'll also be playing Rummy Cube and interacting. Stranger Things is coming out, so I'll watch Stranger Things, the final season. Well, here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

How many times can the nose bleed and she does the pain? I watch it with my kids. It's good.

[Rich Paul]

I have to cheat because I've never watched Stranger Things, so now I have to watch.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you got a lot of watching to do.

[Rich Paul]

No, I don't. There's a thing on YouTube that catches you up, that you can catch up to it. So that way I at least be in the know. I'm not watching 3500 episodes of Stranger Things that won't happen. But I at least want to be in the know so I can watch it. And then it's unfortunate that the golf course is closed on. I think it's closed.

[Max Kellerman]

Are you addicted?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not addicted. I don't like that word, addicted. I am very, very, very acclimated to playing.

[Max Kellerman]

Are you obsessed? Do you think about it a lot? Like you're driving? You think about your swing all the time. Okay, that's.

[Rich Paul]

I'm watching my whole feed. If you open up, you know, it's a. You know, when you go to somebody's popular page, you know, that's a very risque type of thing. I found this out When I was at TikTok.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

And they were like, let's go to your popular. Let's go to your page.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause I'm not on TikTok. I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying. But your page says everything. It could be some, you know.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, depending on your. On what you look at and stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Depending on how you think what you look at and what you talk about. It could. It could get a little risque. But if you go on my page, you're just gonna see golf and you're gonna see vintage Porsches. That's it, Pretty much.

[Max Kellerman]

For some reason on my algorithm, these guys pop up. I'm trying to remember the name of the show, and they're talking about what animals would win in a fight. The algorithm knows me. Oh, yeah. The algorithm knows me.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because, you know, like, jujitsu or.

[Max Kellerman]

Something like Krav Maga.

[Rich Paul]

But I just, like.

[Max Kellerman]

I just, like. I'm curious about. They ask, like, who would win, you know, a pack of hyenas or this, you know, whatever it is, is my wig. And I can't wait to hear the answer, what they have to say about it.

[Rich Paul]

Did my durag lines go away?

[Max Kellerman]

Let me see. Still there. They're still there a little bit. Little bit.

[Rich Paul]

You know what?

[Max Kellerman]

Slight discoloration.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you know what we gotta live with. I gotta live with it.

[Max Kellerman]

That's it.

[Rich Paul]

I wore. You know, I think I had my durag on for, like, 36 hours.

[Max Kellerman]

That's too long, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

I know, but I was distracted.

[Max Kellerman]

Slept in it, of course, and then woke up and had a whole day and then slept in it again. It's too much.

[Rich Paul]

You know, I didn't have to go to the office. That's why.

[Max Kellerman]

Merry Christmas.

[Rich Paul]

Merry Christmas.

[Max Kellerman]

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[Max Kellerman]

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