Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Incentives, Loyalty, and Fitting In
Date: February 13, 2026
Host: The Ringer

Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into critical NBA topics: how to fix the draft incentive structure to reduce tanking, the persistent debate over player loyalty versus organizational loyalty, and understanding the mindset required to thrive in the league. The conversation is a blend of reflective insights, practical suggestions, and candid, witty banter. Kellerman, a seasoned sports commentator, and Paul, a super-agent, offer fans an inside look into how league structures affect careers, culture, and competition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. NBA Tech Summit & Living in the Future

• Rich Paul shares his schedule for All-Star Weekend, including attending the exclusive NBA Tech Summit (03:08), describing it as a "TED talk for the NBA" (03:50).
  • Past summits have covered streaming, AI, and robotics; this year features streaming service CEOs and a surprise guest.
  • Max and Rich joke about the rapid pace of technology, referencing Waymo driverless cars and delivery robots as everyday experiences in 2026 (06:06).
  • Both reflect on how technological advances have transformed the NBA and society.

2. The NBA Draft & Tanking: "Flip the Incentive"

• The main subject: How to address "tanking" in the NBA and fix the incentives that encourage losing for draft position.

  • Max’s Initial Idea (09:00): Remove the draft entirely and let all prospects be free agents, with compensation mechanisms for teams missing out.

  • Rich’s Concept (10:10–12:44):

    • Flip the draft so it's about the players, not the teams.
    • Top prospects are randomly assigned draft positions, but the player (not the team) with the #1 pick chooses where to sign.
    • "Let's make it about the players. Instead of the team having a lottery... the players [do]." – Rich Paul [10:10]
    • Teams would get the chance to opt-out if they don't want a player, but most decisions would be worked out in advance via agents.
    • To incentivize less-desirable markets, teams with poorer records could have more salary cap space to offer rookies.
    • Both debate how this system would prevent teams from tanking and whether it would fairly distribute talent (14:40–17:32).

  • Debate Over Market Desirability (19:41–24:37):

    • Max questions whether players would ever choose small-market teams (like Utah).
    • Rich insists player mindset and ownership matter more than market glitz: "Your game dictates the market. Do you see the business that LeBron built in Cleveland?" – Rich Paul [20:14]
    • "You play 82 games, 41 are on the road, the rest you could live on the moon." – Rich Paul [31:12]

  • Conclusion on Tanking Fix:

    • Imperfect solutions are okay if they’re an improvement: "The perfect is the enemy of the good. The standard is not perfection, it's: is it better than what we have now?" – Max Kellerman [24:02]
    • Both agree: While tanking may never be completely eliminated, shifting player choice and tweaking incentives could make a significant positive change, increasing drama and agency.

  • Reality Show Potential:

    • Max: “Could you imagine the show around this?” [33:07]
    • Rich: “Amazing. It’s a reality show.” [33:22]

3. All-Star Game Competitiveness: How to Make It Matter

• The discussion pivots to why the NBA All-Star Game hasn’t lived up to its potential and how to fix it.
  • Max’s Proposal (39:09): Simple, high-stakes incentive—give every player on the winning team a $1 million bonus.
    • “Give a million bucks to everyone on the winning team of the All Star Game, they’ll ball, Rich.” – Max Kellerman [39:09]
  • Rich’s Response:
    • Caution over making everything about money, especially for Black athletes: “All I'm saying is you shouldn't have to always be incentivized for money and stand on principle.” [43:08]
    • Prefers solutions that tie future All-Star selections to actual effort and performance in the game (49:59).
  • Philosophical Differences:
    • Max: Prizes and financial incentives work and change behavior. “The NBA has a golden opportunity with the All Star Game to have the best All Star Game in all of sports.” [44:15]
    • Rich: Deeper cultural issues are at play; monetary incentives alone risk diminishing the spirit of competition and community.
  • Notable Analogy:
    • Max compares it to cigarette taxes: warning labels changed little, but tripling the price with taxes cut consumption (47:27).

4. Player Loyalty and Mobility

• Reaction to James Harden’s comments on loyalty being overrated (52:24–54:43).
  • Rich: “It should have never been not normal [to switch teams].” [52:36]
  • Both note the hypocrisy in expecting player loyalty while franchises easily cut or trade players.
  • The draft itself is seen as problematic for loyalty, since players have no say in where their career starts.

5. Self-Awareness and Role Acceptance in Player Development

• Exploring why some players struggle to accept their likely roles (54:45–62:33).
  • Key Example: Evan Turner realized, too late, he might have preferred Richard Jefferson’s career over striving to be Kobe.
    • “That's great self-awareness. The question is, can you gain that perspective early on?” – Rich Paul [55:51]
  • Rich argues that being honest about one’s ceiling early is critical and sometimes even blunt:
    “If you accept this role, you're gonna make 20 to $25 million a year. Or if you want to pretend...you're gonna be in the G League, waived or play overseas.” [60:24]
  • Max pushes back, noting that for many, dreams and ego make it hard to see this reality until too late.
  • Rich insists it's simple math and claims he can evaluate NBA prospects' likely roles in minutes; the real hurdle is ego and unrealistic ambitions cultivated from youth sports through to the league.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Draft Incentive Problem:
  • “We just have to flip it, make it about the players and not about the team.” – Rich Paul [10:10]
• Practical Reality Check:
  • “You play 82 games, 41 of those games are on the road. The other 41 are at home. After that, you make enough money, you can live on the moon.” – Rich Paul [31:12]
• On Ownership Over Market Size:
  • “It is more important for [small-market teams] to have the right ownership group.” – Max Kellerman [34:30]
• Perfect vs. Good:
  • “The perfect is the enemy of the good. The standard is not perfection, it's: is it better than what we have now?” – Max Kellerman [24:02]
• All-Star Game Stakes:
  • “Give a million bucks to everyone on the winning team of the All Star Game, they'll ball, Rich.” – Max Kellerman [39:09]
  • “You shouldn't have to always be incentivized for money and stand on principle.” – Rich Paul [43:08]
• Self-Awareness and Role:
  • “That’s great self awareness. The question is, can you gain that perspective early on?” – Rich Paul [55:51]
  • “If you accept this role, you’re gonna make 20 to $25 million a year. Or... you’re gonna be in the G League, waived or play overseas. How is it hard to get?” – Rich Paul [60:24]
• On Youthful Ego and Acceptance:
  • “For most athletes, perspective is not only gained by them ... [but also] the people around them.” – Rich Paul [58:19]

Important Timestamps

• NBA Tech Summit & Technology: 03:08–06:12
• Draft/Tanking Fix – Rich’s Proposal: 10:10–24:37
• Small Market Debate (Utah): 19:41–24:37, 30:24–31:37
• All-Star Game Incentives: 32:39–51:31
• Loyalty and Player Movement: 52:24–54:43
• Role Acceptance and Ego: 54:45–63:52

Podcast Tone and Style

• The discussion is frank, humorous, and unscripted, with Rich often grounding big-picture issues in pragmatic experience, and Max pushing theoretical and structural reforms.
• The pair are quick to poke fun at each other, but pivot smoothly into serious debate when discussing foundational league issues.

Final Thoughts

If you want a fresh take on why NBA teams lose on purpose, how the draft could be more fair, and why so many gifted players can’t accept being great role-players, this episode is an entertaining and insightful listen. Rich Paul’s draft reform idea and the lively All-Star incentive debate are particular highlights, showcasing exactly why player empowerment, culture, and business incentives drive the modern NBA.

For Feedback

• The hosts encourage listeners to email comments at [gameover@spotify.com] (various, e.g. 01:18, 09:36, 64:03).

Summary prepared for fans who may not have caught the episode—skip the commercials, savor the insights!