NBA Incentives, Loyalty, and Fitting In

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Incentives, Loyalty, and Fitting In
Date: February 13, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into critical NBA topics: how to fix the draft incentive structure to reduce tanking, the persistent debate over player loyalty versus organizational loyalty, and understanding the mindset required to thrive in the league. The conversation is a blend of reflective insights, practical suggestions, and candid, witty banter. Kellerman, a seasoned sports commentator, and Paul, a super-agent, offer fans an inside look into how league structures affect careers, culture, and competition.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. NBA Tech Summit & Living in the Future

• Rich Paul shares his schedule for All-Star Weekend, including attending the exclusive NBA Tech Summit (03:08), describing it as a "TED talk for the NBA" (03:50).
  • Past summits have covered streaming, AI, and robotics; this year features streaming service CEOs and a surprise guest.
  • Max and Rich joke about the rapid pace of technology, referencing Waymo driverless cars and delivery robots as everyday experiences in 2026 (06:06).
  • Both reflect on how technological advances have transformed the NBA and society.

2. The NBA Draft & Tanking: "Flip the Incentive"

• The main subject: How to address "tanking" in the NBA and fix the incentives that encourage losing for draft position.

  • Max’s Initial Idea (09:00): Remove the draft entirely and let all prospects be free agents, with compensation mechanisms for teams missing out.

  • Rich’s Concept (10:10–12:44):

    • Flip the draft so it's about the players, not the teams.
    • Top prospects are randomly assigned draft positions, but the player (not the team) with the #1 pick chooses where to sign.
    • "Let's make it about the players. Instead of the team having a lottery... the players [do]." – Rich Paul [10:10]
    • Teams would get the chance to opt-out if they don't want a player, but most decisions would be worked out in advance via agents.
    • To incentivize less-desirable markets, teams with poorer records could have more salary cap space to offer rookies.
    • Both debate how this system would prevent teams from tanking and whether it would fairly distribute talent (14:40–17:32).

  • Debate Over Market Desirability (19:41–24:37):

    • Max questions whether players would ever choose small-market teams (like Utah).
    • Rich insists player mindset and ownership matter more than market glitz: "Your game dictates the market. Do you see the business that LeBron built in Cleveland?" – Rich Paul [20:14]
    • "You play 82 games, 41 are on the road, the rest you could live on the moon." – Rich Paul [31:12]

  • Conclusion on Tanking Fix:

    • Imperfect solutions are okay if they’re an improvement: "The perfect is the enemy of the good. The standard is not perfection, it's: is it better than what we have now?" – Max Kellerman [24:02]
    • Both agree: While tanking may never be completely eliminated, shifting player choice and tweaking incentives could make a significant positive change, increasing drama and agency.

  • Reality Show Potential:

    • Max: “Could you imagine the show around this?” [33:07]
    • Rich: “Amazing. It’s a reality show.” [33:22]

3. All-Star Game Competitiveness: How to Make It Matter

• The discussion pivots to why the NBA All-Star Game hasn’t lived up to its potential and how to fix it.
  • Max’s Proposal (39:09): Simple, high-stakes incentive—give every player on the winning team a $1 million bonus.
    • “Give a million bucks to everyone on the winning team of the All Star Game, they’ll ball, Rich.” – Max Kellerman [39:09]
  • Rich’s Response:
    • Caution over making everything about money, especially for Black athletes: “All I'm saying is you shouldn't have to always be incentivized for money and stand on principle.” [43:08]
    • Prefers solutions that tie future All-Star selections to actual effort and performance in the game (49:59).
  • Philosophical Differences:
    • Max: Prizes and financial incentives work and change behavior. “The NBA has a golden opportunity with the All Star Game to have the best All Star Game in all of sports.” [44:15]
    • Rich: Deeper cultural issues are at play; monetary incentives alone risk diminishing the spirit of competition and community.
  • Notable Analogy:
    • Max compares it to cigarette taxes: warning labels changed little, but tripling the price with taxes cut consumption (47:27).

4. Player Loyalty and Mobility

• Reaction to James Harden’s comments on loyalty being overrated (52:24–54:43).
  • Rich: “It should have never been not normal [to switch teams].” [52:36]
  • Both note the hypocrisy in expecting player loyalty while franchises easily cut or trade players.
  • The draft itself is seen as problematic for loyalty, since players have no say in where their career starts.

5. Self-Awareness and Role Acceptance in Player Development

• Exploring why some players struggle to accept their likely roles (54:45–62:33).
  • Key Example: Evan Turner realized, too late, he might have preferred Richard Jefferson’s career over striving to be Kobe.
    • “That's great self-awareness. The question is, can you gain that perspective early on?” – Rich Paul [55:51]
  • Rich argues that being honest about one’s ceiling early is critical and sometimes even blunt:
    “If you accept this role, you're gonna make 20 to $25 million a year. Or if you want to pretend...you're gonna be in the G League, waived or play overseas.” [60:24]
  • Max pushes back, noting that for many, dreams and ego make it hard to see this reality until too late.
  • Rich insists it's simple math and claims he can evaluate NBA prospects' likely roles in minutes; the real hurdle is ego and unrealistic ambitions cultivated from youth sports through to the league.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Draft Incentive Problem:
  • “We just have to flip it, make it about the players and not about the team.” – Rich Paul [10:10]
• Practical Reality Check:
  • “You play 82 games, 41 of those games are on the road. The other 41 are at home. After that, you make enough money, you can live on the moon.” – Rich Paul [31:12]
• On Ownership Over Market Size:
  • “It is more important for [small-market teams] to have the right ownership group.” – Max Kellerman [34:30]
• Perfect vs. Good:
  • “The perfect is the enemy of the good. The standard is not perfection, it's: is it better than what we have now?” – Max Kellerman [24:02]
• All-Star Game Stakes:
  • “Give a million bucks to everyone on the winning team of the All Star Game, they'll ball, Rich.” – Max Kellerman [39:09]
  • “You shouldn't have to always be incentivized for money and stand on principle.” – Rich Paul [43:08]
• Self-Awareness and Role:
  • “That’s great self awareness. The question is, can you gain that perspective early on?” – Rich Paul [55:51]
  • “If you accept this role, you’re gonna make 20 to $25 million a year. Or... you’re gonna be in the G League, waived or play overseas. How is it hard to get?” – Rich Paul [60:24]
• On Youthful Ego and Acceptance:
  • “For most athletes, perspective is not only gained by them ... [but also] the people around them.” – Rich Paul [58:19]

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Important Timestamps

• NBA Tech Summit & Technology: 03:08–06:12
• Draft/Tanking Fix – Rich’s Proposal: 10:10–24:37
• Small Market Debate (Utah): 19:41–24:37, 30:24–31:37
• All-Star Game Incentives: 32:39–51:31
• Loyalty and Player Movement: 52:24–54:43
• Role Acceptance and Ego: 54:45–63:52

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Podcast Tone and Style

• The discussion is frank, humorous, and unscripted, with Rich often grounding big-picture issues in pragmatic experience, and Max pushing theoretical and structural reforms.
• The pair are quick to poke fun at each other, but pivot smoothly into serious debate when discussing foundational league issues.

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Final Thoughts

If you want a fresh take on why NBA teams lose on purpose, how the draft could be more fair, and why so many gifted players can’t accept being great role-players, this episode is an entertaining and insightful listen. Rich Paul’s draft reform idea and the lively All-Star incentive debate are particular highlights, showcasing exactly why player empowerment, culture, and business incentives drive the modern NBA.

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For Feedback

• The hosts encourage listeners to email comments at [[e-mail]] (various, e.g. 01:18, 09:36, 64:03).

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Summary prepared for fans who may not have caught the episode—skip the commercials, savor the insights!

Transcript

[Host/Announcer]

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[Rich Paul]

Max, it's Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

It is indeed.

[Rich Paul]

Have you been passing out the email? Gameoverspotify.com I've been saying it everywhere.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, we listen [e-mail]. apparently we have. We're gonna start that on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

We're gonna start responding to our emails on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

Did we get some emails?

[Max Kellerman]

We got emails, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, amazing.

[Max Kellerman]

But I wanna see em. You were like, you know, let's see what's going on. Yeah, perfect.

[Host/Announcer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I was in episode one of History of Field General's History of the Black Quarterback on Peacock. I know. Episode two just dropped. I've not seen it yet. I'm gonna watch it tonight. I know that you're in at least one episode.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, really?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I didn't know if they cut me out. Yeah. Cause I was a quarterback. I told you.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause we both sat down and interviewed for it. Yeah, you were a quarterback. And every time I ask you about being a quarterback, first, it's like it was like a college. High school, junior high school.

[Rich Paul]

I was like 10. I was like 10 years old. 10.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Last time, I swear, you said you were 13. It keeps getting better.

[Rich Paul]

They moved me to receiver. Because. Because as you got bigger, you know, like, it's just one of those things. Thank you, Dean.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, look at this.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I wanted to wear a hat. Thank you, Dean.

[Max Kellerman]

Mm.

[Rich Paul]

Little Billy Ferb.

[Max Kellerman]

You just got your hair lined up. Why you.

[Rich Paul]

I know, but it looks too crazy. It looks too fake on camera.

[Max Kellerman]

What looks fake? The lineup.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah. It started already. Dean. Here. Dean Take the hat back.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that would have been good for the show. We could have left that in.

[Rich Paul]

It's still good for the show. Anyway, I didn't need the hat, but I'm in the doc.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, good.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I was 10. I wasn't 13. By the time I got to 13, they moved me to wide receiver.

[Max Kellerman]

The history of the black quarterback's all about. By the time they get to the pros, they move them to wide receiver.

[Rich Paul]

That is true for different reasons. They try to do the same thing to Lamar Jackson. Didn't work.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, you got some stuff to do today. I know a lot.

[Rich Paul]

I gotta go from here. Then I go to the NBA Tech Summit, which is. The NBA Tech Summit is actually pretty cool. It's an invite only. Everyone's not invited, obviously, but it is a big crowd.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like, get that not everyone's invited.

[Rich Paul]

No, but there's a lot of people.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich is invited.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And others.

[Max Kellerman]

But you are not.

[Rich Paul]

It's a lot of people invited and they break down a lot of things. Anything new? Like, it's been a lot of things. On tech, you have guest speakers. Amar Rashad normally moderates it. Adam Silver opens.

[Max Kellerman]

So it's like a TED talk for the NBA.

[Rich Paul]

Huge. With like 2,000 people. Yeah, right.

[Max Kellerman]

But when you say tech, like what is it like weight, body, motion cameras and stuff like that?

[Rich Paul]

No, they just call it the NBA Tech Summit. But you talk about. Every year is different, depending on what's going on. I'm sure they'll talk about. I have the itinerary, so I have it in front of me. But this year will be. They educate you on like when it was streaming was coming around really big. They educated you on that. They educate you. They'll educate. Last year they educated us on open on AI a lot. They had showed us the robots and all those things. This year, I imagine, you know, again, I didn't look at the itinerary, but there's guest speakers, there's different panels. Some owners are on panels, some of some brand CEOs on panels. This year I saw something with the streaming services. CEOs and C Suite people are on panels. There's a. There's a surprise guest closer that I. That I. That I can't speak about. And you know, it's great. It's great. It's a great five hours of information.

[Max Kellerman]

Sitting anywhere for five hours. I'm out.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, five hours of information. Yeah. But you get breaks.

[Max Kellerman]

You gotta get the glasses with the eyes open and put them on metal.

[Rich Paul]

Be there, you get breaks. But then there's. There's. There's all the shoe brands. There's pretty much every team owner, every general manager. So it's a great room to be in. It's a really great room.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I just thought of when you said the robots thing? What? Okay, I don't know if you're old enough to have this experience, but when fax machines first came out, I thought I was living in the future, right? Wait, you put something in over here, it comes out. In New York, it comes out. What do you mean in New York? Goes to la. It's like. What is this? Teleportation, right? Like where. It's Star Trek or something, but rich. Nowadays, with the robots driving my car coming out of an alley, there's a little. One of those little delivery robots, stops, turns around, looks at you, pauses.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you also have the cars and the Jetsons.

[Max Kellerman]

What is the Jetsons, brother? Like, what's going on?

[Rich Paul]

The cars with no drivers are around.

[Max Kellerman]

Waymo stuff. It's crazy.

[Rich Paul]

It's crazy. Yeah, they're everywhere. Yeah. We're living.

[Max Kellerman]

And the AI and stuff. We're living in the future.

[Rich Paul]

Waymo makes me think, why do I even own a car? I can just have Waymo come over.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I don't know. Because they drive, man. They drive, like, by the rules.

[Rich Paul]

Well, if you look at my younger days of my driving record, I should have drove by the rules, no question.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But anyway, did I go from there, Do a community cares event, which. Oh, my God.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait. Baby to baby. I think baby to baby. You would sit through five hours of talks and then go to a community cares event.

[Rich Paul]

It'll be less than 5.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't care how much money you're making, Rich, it's not worth it.

[Rich Paul]

No, here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Not worth it. I would retire. It'd be less at the post office.

[Rich Paul]

No, it'd be less because I can't. I don't have the hours. It'll be less than 5. Go to community Care's event. Meet a lot of guys there. Baby to Baby, which is all about single moms and rescuing single moms and obviously their kids. And it's a great program for a great cause. And then we have our clutch athletics event, which is great.

[Max Kellerman]

I wore my clutch tracksuit to the show today.

[Rich Paul]

Look good in it. Look good in it. So it's, you know, Friday, people. I think people look at All Star Weekend and I'm jealous of the people that come to All Star Weekend. And their time is only their time. I remember those days, but for me, the last. Definitely the last 12 years, been all work.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen, you just said the magic words, so we should start the show. You said All Star Game weekend, but the operative words there are All Star Game, because, Rich, this morning I came in, I thought I had an idea, a concept of what to do about the All Star Game, and then you told me something that you have the. I tell you, I'll tip my cat.

[Rich Paul]

Well, this was about.

[Max Kellerman]

You got the answer. All Star Game or no, no, no. Excuse me. Yours was about tanking. Mine was about the All Star.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Yours about the All Star Game.

[Max Kellerman]

I take it back. I like my own idea about the All Star Game. Good job. But your job, your thing about tanking is better than mine about the. All that. Your. Your idea about tanking is the best idea, period, I've heard about anything. At least in several weeks, if not longer. Like, that's a great idea or. All right, you ready to start the show?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Let's pay some bills so we can get right into it.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. Let's start with tanking in the NBA, Rich. Cause this morning I came in.

[Rich Paul]

You keep using that word, Max, you repositioning.

[Host/Announcer]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not a politician, man. I just.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not a politician either. I just don't like the word tanky.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but that's what it is. That's what some people are going into the tank. Okay, look, I came in, I thought I had the beginnings of a solution, right? Which is get rid of the draft. They're all free agents, and they can choose where they want to go, but there's some kind of compensation mechanism in for the teams, the other 29 teams that miss out. Right? So, okay, then you said something. I said as soon as I heard, it's like, okay, forget my idea. Goodbye. This idea to me is so good. And maybe someone wants to write in an email, you want to tell them the email and tell me why this is not so good. But to me, it sounds good.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Give all the critique or the [e-mail] right?

[Max Kellerman]

So maybe you hear this and you think, no, it's not good, Max. It won't work for this.

[Rich Paul]

They might think I'm crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich's idea won't work for this idea. You got me convinced. You had me at, what was it? Hello? No, what was it at? Hello at hello? Is that Jerry Maguire? That was the line.

[Rich Paul]

You had me at hello.

[Max Kellerman]

Losing my memory in my old age. You had me at hello with this one. Give me the draft idea that you have that eliminates.

[Rich Paul]

It will fix it fixes everything. We just have to flip it, make it about the players and not about the team. So my idea is to fix this notion that we are tanking and teams.

[Max Kellerman]

Are losing on purpose at a certain point because they're incentivized to do it because they have players in the draft that they can't otherwise acquire on cheap contracts.

[Rich Paul]

And the integrity of the game is being tampered with. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Utah people are pointing to. Even though if I'm a Utah fan, I don't want them to win any games because we have some good players and we can get a great draft.

[Rich Paul]

Which I do not agree that the integrity of the game is being tampered with. But hear me out. So I think we should flip it. Let's make it about the players. Right. And so instead of the team having a lottery the players. And there's no like 1% chance, it's just make it a raffle, pretty much.

[Max Kellerman]

So it's random.

[Rich Paul]

It's just. You put the Top 14 players names into a. Or you can actually, you can put. Because sometimes you don't know if it's 14. Put 18. Right. Just for overflow.

[Max Kellerman]

And you spin the thing around.

[Rich Paul]

You spin the thing around. The first name you take out, regardless of who that player is and regardless of how many points they average in college, et cetera, if they're in this.

[Max Kellerman]

It'S the 13th best player in the draft by the scouts saying this is the right. But the 13th best player or whatever it is has. The number one pick has.

[Rich Paul]

Well, he would go. The first name comes out, goes to 14. The second name comes out, goes to 13. The third name comes out, goes to 12. And then you go all the way to.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I see. Right. You're reversing it like they did in the Patrick Ewan.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Yeah. And whoever that number one guy is. Right, Right. He gets to then choose based upon his pick where he wants to go in the.

[Max Kellerman]

You're getting the same drama that the draft has gotten.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You're getting the same drama.

[Max Kellerman]

They started the draft lottery when you're waiting to hear who's gonna go second so you know who goes first.

[Rich Paul]

Now the only thing you have to hash out is now this is gonna make it to where the representation actually works.

[Max Kellerman]

So let's be very clear. The player and the number one pick goes to. Or the number two pick goes to. And now you know which player's left and has the number one pick in the draft?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

This number one pick in the draft entitles that player to choose which team he goes to.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Just like the number one pick, presently, the team chooses what player they want. So you're reversing it. The player now has the choice. Rich Paul, who was ranked the 12th best player in this draft, got the number one pick. And now Rich Paul can decide. I want to go play for my hometown Cleveland Cavaliers. I want to go to the New York Knicks. I want to go wherever.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Okay, but does a team have an option? Could they deny the player? Because what if I don't want you?

[Max Kellerman]

They would have to.

[Rich Paul]

Right? They would have to have an option.

[Max Kellerman]

They would have to have an option.

[Rich Paul]

But what happens is you don't even get to that point because you tend to work it out behind the scenes with your representation.

[Max Kellerman]

What would you say to someone who would say, no one's gonna choose Utah?

[Rich Paul]

That's not true. Because Utah, the lesser teams should have an increase in spin, so.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, the lesser teams have more money.

[Rich Paul]

To spend than the better team.

[Max Kellerman]

So how do you choose what that is? By market. Because sometimes the size of the market. Miami is not the biggest market, but it's a sexy market.

[Rich Paul]

Well, it also. Because here's what happens. A lot of times, the players don't get to choose their organization.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That could. That could cause you not to never get to a second deal how you start your career.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

It matters.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

So now you have to actually evaluate things. Less about money and more about what's best for me.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, rewind for one second. I love. I mean, this is why I wanted you to say, I love this idea. But how do you determine what's the quote, unquote, lesser market? Are we going strictly by. It's not about market size.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not about market.

[Max Kellerman]

So how do you determine. How does Utah, which is. Look, let's just be blunt about it. Utah is a place where NBA players are not clamoring to go, but the size of its market probably doesn't put it, you know, the last team. So how do you decide which team can spend more money?

[Rich Paul]

The market thing is overrated, people. You talking about market in the NBA, it's like kids learning out of old textbooks in school.

[Max Kellerman]

But you just said, Rich, that the lesser markets have more. How would you like the lesser markets?

[Rich Paul]

The teams with the lesser successful teams?

[Max Kellerman]

But now you're incentivizing, tanking again.

[Rich Paul]

No, you're not.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, if I'M a big, sexy market and I have a bad team. I want to lose all my games because then I can also afford to pay the player more.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but here's what I'm saying. Miami once had the number two pick in the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Chicago once had the number three pick in the draft. New York has been in the lottery several times. It's not necessarily about the market. It's about your play. So if, if, if. Because here's the thing. Just because I. Because the player has the choice. Just because I finished last doesn't incentivize me anything. Because the player has the choice.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, wait, this is where I'm getting stuck. And by the way, the perfect is the enemy of the good. The evaluation of a proposal should not be. Are there any problems with it? Because nothing's perfect. The evaluation should be, is it better than what we now have? Is it worth trying? Because it's better than our present system. What I don't. Now that we're talking about it, what I don't know how to address is. You said a market like Utah, for example, would have more money to spend.

[Rich Paul]

No, you said that.

[Max Kellerman]

What did you say?

[Rich Paul]

I said if you play NBA season.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The teams that finish worse.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Would have. Regardless.

[Max Kellerman]

Would have more money to spend.

[Rich Paul]

Would have more money to spend.

[Max Kellerman]

Incentivizes losing.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying. This causes. Hear me out. There's a second step to this.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay? Okay.

[Rich Paul]

This causes the. They're not going to have 20 million more dollars to spend a year. Maybe it's 5 million more, but. And there's a 20% increase each year, pretty much. But what I'm saying is the player, If I'm sitting back, okay, prime example, Arch Manning. Okay. When Eli came out, San Diego had the number one pick. Eli Manning was the number one player on the board. He chose. He didn't want to go there.

[Max Kellerman]

So.

[Rich Paul]

He chose to go to the Giants. Now, it just so happened that the Giants were not so good and they were in a great market in New.

[Max Kellerman]

York and they had to give up Nate Kading, who was really good, and Sean Merriman, who was great for a while, and Philip Rivers to go get Eli Manning.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. But I'm just saying there has to be. And again, I just started this idea this morning when you asked me the question. So there's things to be worked out.

[Max Kellerman]

Worked out, sure.

[Rich Paul]

But.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's. The basic framework is the players are the ones who get to choose which team to go to.

[Host/Announcer]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And then the wrinkle that needs to be worked out is how to incentivize them to go to markets that players normally don't want to go to. And the way to do that is usually by giving those markets more money to spend on them. But there's probably a formula that you could do that too, right? Like you could have players in college vote on their most. Their favorite and least favorite markets, and then you can put in. Put it in reverse order and give more money to the least favorite market. So things you can do.

[Rich Paul]

So what if we did this? What if we just said, okay, let's tweak it a little bit. All right, There's a vote on the best players, Right. So the order becomes the order of best players. Every team hands in their order.

[Max Kellerman]

Got it.

[Rich Paul]

So if this was the 2003 draft, LeBron had the most of the number one votes. Carmelo had most of the number two votes.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I see where you're going with this.

[Rich Paul]

You get what I'm saying? So now LeBron's on the board.

[Max Kellerman]

So if your guys are all gone, then you're somehow compensated for that. The list you hand in.

[Rich Paul]

No, what I'm saying is you hand your list in. The board is set.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

LeBron's on the clock.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Cleveland just so happened to be where he from, and they have the number one pick, but Detroit has the number two pick. They was just in the Eastern Conference finals or whatever the case may be, and you're looking at it and saying, do I go home to Cleveland? Who has the number one pick? I'm from there. I'm from Akron, 24 miles away, and I can start this thing. Or do I plug myself right next to Chauncey Billups and Rip and all these dudes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And Tayshaun Prince, Rasheed, Ben Wallace.

[Rich Paul]

Because now what's more important to you? Because everyone talks about winning. Well, do you really want to win or do you want the most money? How do you want your own team and all these things?

[Max Kellerman]

How do you address the Utah Jazz? That's my point. The Utah Jazz are now tanking because they want to pair their good, talented nucleus, that's still pretty young, with a phenomenal player in the draft.

[Rich Paul]

You know how you address a Utah Jazz?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

By stop worrying about where you're going to have a Mai Tai and focus on where you can actually build your career and build a relationship. Utah, number one, Salt Lake. Do you understand what Ryan Smith is doing in Utah?

[Max Kellerman]

But, Rich, I'm getting necessarily not going to want to go To Utah.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, they will. Yes, they will. This is. This isn't. Listen, this is not 1995. And again, people saying that don't know what they're talking about. You know why? Because they talked all this about small market. Your game dictates the market. Do you see the business that LeBron built in Cleveland? Cleveland gets. No. Cleveland is the size of a lemon head as it pertains to markets.

[Max Kellerman]

Tell me a player who ever forced their way to the Utah Jazz, either by free agency or trying to pressure a trade. Because I can name players who forced their way to the Knicks, to the Lakers, to the Heat. I can name those players.

[Rich Paul]

They forced their way somewhere for what they assume was there, and it was nothing there.

[Max Kellerman]

But what is that market? But that market's never Utah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but let's talk.

[Max Kellerman]

And so you got to address that.

[Rich Paul]

Let's talk about the players in big markets right now. What do they have?

[Max Kellerman]

You're right. You're addressing the reality. But the other reality is the choices that players make in terms of where to go. And what I'm saying is, if what you're saying is true, then at some point in the history of the NBA, some great player would have tried to make their way to Utah. They would have said, I want to go to the Jazz.

[Rich Paul]

No, the Jazz was not a bad team. The Jazz was in the finals. The Jazz was in the final.

[Max Kellerman]

So why wasn't it more of a destination for players?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I don't. Listen, you had salary cap back then. You had.

[Max Kellerman]

Don't talk me out of your take. I like that.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not talking out of my take. I'm just saying if Utah has the number one pick, like last year, I truly believe.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, we're changing this? I thought the player had the number one pick.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. I'm saying if the player had the number one pick. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And Utah had the most money available for that player. You cannot tell me that that player necessarily, last year, wouldn't have picked Utah.

[Max Kellerman]

Before we move on, I need to know how we determine that Utah has the most money for the player. See what I mean? Because there are. The uncomfortable truth, Rich, is that there are some markets that. Not just because of the size of the market, but because of the weather or because of the kind of. Yeah, but you're gonna have abiding kind of rules of the town. Right, right. Are less desirable. And we're going to have to name them and incentivize players to go there.

[Rich Paul]

Less desirable. California taxes.

[Max Kellerman]

And yet players still Want to come.

[Rich Paul]

To play, but you cannot have it every which way, Max. You just can't have it every which way.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not having it. The players want to play in la.

[Rich Paul]

Salt Lake City is a beautiful place.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. I'm not disagreeing. I've never been. I can't speak about it intelligently.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that makes your take even worse.

[Max Kellerman]

What I'm saying is it ain't my take. It's my observation that in the history of the NBA, no primetime star ever either signed with or forced their way to Utah. So we have to figure out a way to incentivize that.

[Rich Paul]

And not bad stars.

[Max Kellerman]

But your plan is a good one. I'm saying give certain teams more resources to sign players. I'm saying how do you determine what teams they are fairly, what teams have more resources? You can't just do it on market size. Cause some larger markets are less desirable because they have bad weather or they have strict rules in town or whatever.

[Rich Paul]

But we just said if you are under serving team, you did not have a great year, you're going to have more money to spend, but you're not guaranteed to get the number one pick anything.

[Max Kellerman]

I see. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Because the player has the choice.

[Max Kellerman]

So then what I would say is you still haven't eliminated the incentives of tanking.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you have.

[Max Kellerman]

You haven't eliminated them. You've improved it. Yes, but you haven't eliminated.

[Rich Paul]

Nothing's necessarily eliminated all the way out.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, maybe not.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you just want to improve it.

[Max Kellerman]

Now you can say, you're right, you're right. The standard is not perfection. The standard is, is it better than what we have now? Which that would be.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Because here's the thing. If I like you and you like me, then great. But if you like me and I don't like you and I have a choice which the player the team could. The team with the worst record that decided that we're gonna lose every game, so to speak, is what people are insinuating, which I disagree, but. And you can pick me, but I don't have to pick you.

[Max Kellerman]

So I'm trying to run through a scenario in my head. So some college kid signs up with Clutch and Rich Paul and the team and the Utah Jazz call you and they say, listen, if we finish last, we are going to have $5 million more a year. Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Would your player be interested in playing for us instead of the Miami Heat, let's say, who also for some reason had a bad year that year. If we could offer an extra $5 million. And if you said, no, I don't think that would do it. They're not incentivized to tank. However, if you told them, yeah, I think that would work. They are incentivized to tank.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But I can tell you something right now that I do. If I have a player. When you have a player that's a consensus number one pick, then the lottery comes out in May. Right. I always ask players, even if they're not consensus number one, you could be 2, 3, 4, or 5, depending on who has that pick, the AAU system and the fact that the salaries are slotted. So if you go number one, you get more money. If you go number two, you get. And so when you sit with families, every person that's been in their living room talk about how high your son's gonna go, and they're saying this because they're equating the number that you drafted with the money, right? Okay. Okay. So if I make money, a lot of money for four years, and then I don't make any money for the next 20 years, where am I at? Right? So I always ask players, and I always ask the families, hey, if such and such has the number two pick or the number one pick, what's more important to you? Going number one or positioning yourself for the long haul? Because if you go, if I can get you to this team, it has a great ownership group with a owner that's willing to pay the tax, willing to pay the repeater tax. You get what I'm saying? It has.

[Max Kellerman]

And you know what would happen, Rich? What would happen is, realistically is teams like the Utah Jazz would wind up like really good mid majors in college in that they might think that the top two or three players in a given year, let's say, are more likely to not want to play in Utah. However, this guy who's not considered the top two or three, but is really good player for an extra 5 million a year.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But might be like, yeah, I'll go to Utah.

[Rich Paul]

No, you know what? They gonna wind up with exactly what Pat Riley was saying. They'll wind up with a team full of people that Pat Riley was saying he don't like today's game about a team full of people that Pat Riley was not saying he don't like today's game about.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I'm saying. Because they wind up like a good mid major who has four different guys who's going to wind up in rotations.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you want. Listen, you want that.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's good. That team could win the championship.

[Rich Paul]

Look at the San Antonio Spurs. You want that star like a wembanyama who is about the right things. Again, this is helping the player develop. Because the point I'm trying to make is to close it out in the event you are a lesser, attractive city that a team is in. If a player is picking a team based upon the city, I really don't want that guy who's not proven. Now, once you're proven. Once you're proven, a perennial all star, all NBA, great pick wherever you want.

[Max Kellerman]

To play the first five or six years of your career, better to be in a good situation.

[Rich Paul]

I always say this.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, the less there is to do in a city, the better your play is. Probably.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that shouldn't even. Listen when they interview these players. Listen. I always tell guys, if you're in an interview and you slouch down and your phone is on and you looking at you looking down, and I just.

[Max Kellerman]

Did all these things on this show.

[Rich Paul]

And they ask you, okay, what's important to you? Oh, I want to play in a. I want to play in a city where the weather's 80 degrees, man. Are you a basketball player or a model? Because I want basket for me. I want basketball players. If you want to model and stand in front of a garage and change three, four different times your clothes during the day, please.

[Max Kellerman]

Now, you know what's so great about this, Rich? This is like anyone who's listening, I know who's like a real fan. It's like geeking out with your friend about what they should do in the NBA. But it's with Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Now, listen, it's great.

[Max Kellerman]

I love it.

[Rich Paul]

If you've given me 25 a night and we're going to deep into the playoffs, hell, I don't care if you change clothes during the first quarter of the game and the last quarter of the game. You could take your uniform.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't put the cart before the horse.

[Rich Paul]

Put your shorts on for all I care. I don't care. Perform first. But if you're putting this glamour in front of your performance, then we have a problem. And that's what Pat is saying. And that's what a lot of the old school guys are saying. Because I tell kids all the time, I tell families all the time, the people that are picking these players, they come from a different era, right? I know for a fact they do this. They come from a different era. So when you go into these front offices Some of these front offices has my man Rod, who picked Michael Jordan. Yeah, right. He's looking for a ball player. He don't care if you show up with pajamas on, a scarf on. He don't care. He wants to see you rebound. He wants to see you dive on the ball for a loose ball.

[Max Kellerman]

Draft Jordan. Play him at center. Who should I draft? Jordan. You need a center. Draft Jordan.

[Rich Paul]

Play again. Utah has Danny Ainge. How many players have Danny Ainge drafted? Also played with Rick Carlisle. I love talking to Rick Carlisle on the phone. We talk basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

But see Rich, that's the point. Utah has Danny Ainge and smart people in the organization. And they have decided that it's in their best interest. And I agree to lose games right now. And what you and I are talking about is fixing the incentives so that a team like Utah doesn't want to lose games.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing. If you fix the incentives with my idea, Utah is still attractive because of all the reasons I just named. They have an owner that wants to pay, he's going to pay.

[Max Kellerman]

And Utah would have a little more money to spend.

[Rich Paul]

They're going to have. Well, they won't for long because they're going to be good. But yeah, they'll have a little more money to spend. And I always tell guys, first of all, you play 82 games. 41 of those games are on the road. The other 41 are at home. After that, you make enough money, you can live on the moon. I don't care where you live. You get what I'm saying? Like, stop focusing on the things that don't matter.

[Host/Announcer]

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[Max Kellerman]

First of all, I love the idea. Maybe not as much as I thought when I first heard it, only because the details have to be worked out just like anything. Like anything. It's a super interesting idea. And I would say to anyone listening who sees my point that that if the players get the draft pick and they get. And the player with the number one pick gets to decide what team he goes to or at least what team he would be interested in signing with, it's still. And the other teams get more money. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Could you imagine the show around this, though?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. If you took this to the nbpa, it's more programming.

[Rich Paul]

The programming around it, the bts, the prep, the actual work.

[Max Kellerman]

Amazing. It's a reality show.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. It's like.

[Max Kellerman]

But what I'm saying is that people who noticed, as I just did, who noticed that teams are still incentivized to have a worse record if it means they have more money to spend to lure players. The perfect is the enemy of the good. I'll say it again. The standard is not is this idea perfect? It's does it replace the existing system with a system that will yield better results? And I believe this would. I believe it's definitely the start of something. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

I love that it's only gonna change. It's only gonna be like that for so long. Because what's gonna happen is the team that's incentivized, or so you think, to have the worst record. Normally the team with the worst record also had the worst owner and the worst culture and all those other things that's going to be flipped on his head. So it's only going to have the worst record for so long because they're going to. They have all the other intangibles and they're going to be picking.

[Max Kellerman]

In the case of the Utah Jazz, you mean.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Because sometimes the team's just bad and.

[Rich Paul]

They have a bad owner. There's not thresholds. There should be, but there's not.

[Max Kellerman]

But what you're point. What we're really pointing out here is markets that are considered less desirable than the glamour markets, it is more important for them to have the right ownership group. Right. Like that ownership that's happening, that ownership group. And that's something the NBA should take into consideration when evaluating bids for franchises is they have to evaluate what they think about the people making the bid. Because if you're in a place like Utah where players aren't clamoring to go bad. Ownership will kill that place. You must have good ownership.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you what's happening that's changing in our league once private equity comes into our league. You've been around billionaires before, right?

[Max Kellerman]

I have been.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. They live a certain way. They're competitive. They don't like to be told no. Right. And now, because of these different industries, the billionaires have gotten younger and younger as well. And they're actually into the game and they're actually accessible and they're actually personable. Right. Back in the day, you didn't have a relationship with your owner. Maybe Magic did with Jerry Buss.

[Max Kellerman]

It was uncommon.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But it was very uncommon. Today, it's actually the opposite. Right. So when you look at franchises like the Atlanta Hawks, you want to play for Tony Ressler. When you look at the Charlotte Hornets, you want to play for Rick Snohl. When you look at the Utah Jazz, you want to play for Ryan Smith. I was with Joe lacob last night. He still wants to win. He want. He. He. The players are out the game. His star players. He's coming in, he's competitive. He wants to win how he's going.

[Max Kellerman]

And he's got a good market, too.

[Rich Paul]

But also, you didn't see him cut corners building his arena in one of the most expensive cities in America. He built an arena. Right. The food in the suite. Off the chain. Everything is off the chain. You get what I'm saying? Off the chain. So I think those things are changing. When Dan Gilbert bought the Cavs, he built a practice facility in, like, two days. He's building another practice facility right now. Those things are changing.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll see what effect it has on the players. Motivation, it will tell you, because markets.

[Rich Paul]

It's not about markets.

[Max Kellerman]

While we're on the subject of fixing things, I got a quick fix for the All Star Game. Okay. Ready?

[Rich Paul]

Ready.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Because Kevin Durant came out and said.

[Rich Paul]

And he was right.

[Max Kellerman]

He said that the Euro players, European players don't take it seriously at all. And they don't get pressed about it.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's. Well, he was. The second thing he was right about. There's not an expect. There's an expectation on American players. There is no expectation on international players. I'll buy it at least from our media.

[Max Kellerman]

And Tom Winhorse this morning was talking about how Kobe Bryant brought a certain competitiveness at least in, like, the fourth quarter. Right. In the All Star Game. But I have. But the All Star Game, even when I was a Kid has never been good enough in the NBA and let me tell you why, Rich. It has to be good. It needs to get better.

[Rich Paul]

But not just Kobe. Stephon Marbury brought competitiveness. I was at that game in D.C. in 2001. When they came back, the east team came back. The All Star Game was exactly what it always has been. It was first 3/4 was laissez faire and then the fourth quarter I don't like.

[Max Kellerman]

But the All Star Game should be better than it has ever been. And the reason the NBA is missing a golden opportunity there is because if you look at the NFL and one of the Kamenitsky brothers. I apologize, I used to work with him on radio, but brought up an interesting point about how the Pro bowl in the NFL is not taken seriously. No one cares. NFL doesn't harp on it. They move on.

[Rich Paul]

But the NFL is different because it's a very high risk sport.

[Max Kellerman]

Exactly.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want that.

[Max Kellerman]

The NFL does not have the. It's not a sport that lends itself to an exhibition.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

The NBA on the other hand, is a sport that lends itself to an exhibition game.

[Rich Paul]

It's like you slap boxing with Mike Tyson. Why would I ever do that?

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Ridiculous. But in the NBA it's like all the greatest superheroes coming to. It's like the hall of justice versus the Legion of Doom, depending on who you're rooting for. That is a golden opportunity that they're missing. And there's so many such an easy fix.

[Rich Paul]

So what's your fix?

[Max Kellerman]

So this is what they do with the mid season tournament that has guys really competing. They gave half a million dollars to everyone on the winning team. Give a million bucks to everyone on the winning team of the All Star Game, they'll ball Rich.

[Rich Paul]

I once was talking to Kobe, but you're positioning them for critique. And I saw the other day that Vince Carter said that he and LeBron and Tracy McGregor, whoever was offered a million dollars to do the dunk contest. And like, it's not.

[Max Kellerman]

That's not if they're in the All Star Game anyway. But the winning team gets a million a pop, they're going to play hard. They're going to try and win from jump. Literally from jump.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you why. That's a very slippery slope and you're not wrong. Let me just say you're right. You're not wrong. But let me tell you why. It's a very slippery slope. The same way it would be in the dunk contest if LeBron wins the dunk contest. People gonna say, oh, they rigged it for him. Right. And if he loses, the dunk contest.

[Max Kellerman]

Depends on the dunk.

[Rich Paul]

No, it becomes another thing. Now, that don't mean you don't do it. Because there was a couple years he was gonna do it, unfortunately, got hurt in between because he really wanted to do it. I know that for a fact. We discussed it several times. Right. Even on a messed up ankle, man.

[Max Kellerman]

He'D been in the league 23 years. Do it now.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, not now. This was 2004.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm saying. But Rich, that one doesn't fly. Just because even if that's the case, if you've been in the league 23 years, has he ever done the.

[Rich Paul]

No, no.

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron, never. If you're in the league 23 years, there's ample opportunity, if you really want to do it, one of those years, to do it.

[Rich Paul]

No. Once you get past years, three, four. Not doing it for what? Don't make it to appease. Who? Max Kellerman.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, okay, but he didn't do it right.

[Rich Paul]

He's not obligated to do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, sure.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I'm saying. And there's no win there anyway.

[Max Kellerman]

There is a win. Jordan beat Dominique, even though people think Dominique should have won and this and that and the dunk. But the dunk that MJ did, the homage to Dr. J is still one of the most iconic athletic moments ever. And it's in a dunk contest.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but there you go. What somebody else did. Okay, move on. So when you talk about the All Star game, the thing about it is once you start adding money. Yes, you're right. They will. I guess they will play harder. Whatever. I don't think you need to look.

[Max Kellerman]

At the mid season tournament.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think you need to incentivize for that because there's a slippery slope that comes into play now. Guys only want to play for money. They're not playing for the love of the game. And in our day, we played like this.

[Max Kellerman]

And are they playing it hard?

[Rich Paul]

So and so forth.

[Max Kellerman]

If you put Rich, if you put a million on the table, for every player on the winning team, we would get the best All Star games of all time.

[Rich Paul]

I still don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so what I was going to tell you before is I was once talking to Kobe on the phone and this was during the lockout and he was talking about. I just asked him, like, are you seriously considering. I think a Chinese team offered him $3 million to go play there For a month or something. And I said, are you seriously considering it? He was. And when I asked him why. Because to someone like me, it's like Kobe Bryant has all the money in the world. Right? What's $3 million? You know what he told me? $3 million. Like, even if you have a lot of money, that's still. It's a lot of money. Yeah, but these dudes gamble 50 GS on the plane in a card game. They get competitive.

[Rich Paul]

That wasn't about $3 million. If I'm going to play in China with that brand, it's about.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right.

[Rich Paul]

Exploding the 300% increase on my brand.

[Max Kellerman]

Would you. Do you think the guys would not.

[Rich Paul]

Have a signature shoe?

[Max Kellerman]

Are you saying the guys wouldn't play the best All Star Games ever for a million bucks each on the winning team? Because I'm saying they would.

[Rich Paul]

Guys turn down a million dollars for.

[Max Kellerman]

45 minutes, but they're already playing the game. Rich, you're already in the game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. No, I'm not.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not signing up for the All Star Game because of the million. You're already playing a game, and only if you win do you get a million.

[Rich Paul]

All I'm saying is.

[Max Kellerman]

A million.

[Rich Paul]

All I'm saying is you shouldn't have to always be incentivized for money and stand on principle.

[Max Kellerman]

Or you could get a great game.

[Rich Paul]

But it's deeper for me. It's deeper for me than what you're saying. Because that. What you're saying in my community is the reason why we can't ever build anything. It's the reason why we can never support each other to the level that we should. To have a generational positioning because you so easily moved by the money. And it's also an issue in my business, right, Going into living rooms, you go from it costs X for my expertise. And then all of a sudden, you go from that to, oh, we'll charge you nothing. So now you cannot tell the difference between a good agent, a great agent, a bad agent, because everything is based upon what somebody's charging.

[Max Kellerman]

What you're telling me, Rich, is that for you, it's an emotional issue.

[Rich Paul]

It's not emotional.

[Max Kellerman]

You just said it.

[Rich Paul]

No, no. What I'm saying is, I look at it. You're looking at it. Surface level. I don't look at anything in my life.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm looking at it. One thing. This is my analysis. The NBA has a golden opportunity with the All Star Game to have the best All Star Game in all of sports because it's not. There is some injury risk, obviously, but it's not like the NFL. And the game is intrinsically more electric than baseball. And those are the three biggest economies in North American sports. So because of that, the NBA, if it spent an extra $13 million for the million dollar pop, would have an All Star Game that everyone would want to watch. If I knew that these dudes were actually trying to play hard, east versus West, I'd watch.

[Rich Paul]

You'd get in a room with Adam, with Andre, with the players. Like I've always said, you educate them on the business and you say, listen.

[Max Kellerman]

This has never been attempted. To educate them on the business, to get them in a room has never been attempted.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, this is what I'm saying. Because what you're saying is parody. What I'm saying is power. You get in the room and you say, listen, you guys in this room, that's All Stars average. You're probably making $60 million per year. It's generational money per year. Right. You have to protect that because what you're going to end up doing over time, you're going to end up, as you keep doing this thing, people are going to say, you know what? These guys don't really care. First is they don't care about the All Star Game. There's gonna be. They don't care about 30 games in the season.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, your speech would work on select clients of yours and maybe certain people in the room. But it's not like if the motivational speech would work, if talking logically to people and motivating them that way would really work, then it would have been done already. Are you saying it's never been attempted? I'm saying you need to incentivize the behavior. And you're right. The incentives are there in the long term, but that's not obviously shaping behavior, because if it was, they'd play the All Star Game. All Star Game's a joke.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so if this was a pack of cigarettes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

What is in the small messaging on the bottom of the package? So for us giving you a million dollars to play in the All Star Game, what's the negative of that?

[Max Kellerman]

A million dollars to play in the All Star. The negative is the potential for injury in the game. I don't understand.

[Rich Paul]

No, the negative is right now we're giving you a million dollars to play in the game that you should already care about because you're making $65 million a year. And because you don't care about it, it's going to allow Us to look deeper into the season and say you also don't care about the regular season and you have a guaranteed contract. So years from now in the new cba, maybe we'll talk about non guaranteed contracts. So players.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich. Let me torture the metaphor. Let me torture the metaphor, okay? You could put warning labels on cigarettes and all that.

[Rich Paul]

And people still smoke.

[Max Kellerman]

And people still smoke. You know what cut down smoking. When a pack of cigarettes cost 12 bucks instead of 3 bucks, then all of a sudden smoking went down.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know about that.

[Max Kellerman]

Look, look, what happened there is we sold them the financial. Of course, but the more expensive it is, the more it affects how many you sell.

[Rich Paul]

No, we just sold single cigarettes.

[Max Kellerman]

I get it. But the fact is that affected people's behavior. Warning label, not so much. Quadrupling the price because of taxes affects behavior. I think my solution's pretty elegant. Here's a million bucks to the winning team, winner take all. The All Star Game. A million bucks each.

[Rich Paul]

But you're missing one thing, Max. It affected the behavior of the people buying cigarettes that made a certain amount of money per year. If a billionaire smoked cigarettes, he still bought carton, filled his garage up with cigarettes.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure. But the principle is the same is that the financial incentive, short term financial incentive, affected behavior. The warning label, not so much a speech in a room, getting everyone in a room and explaining to them. Maybe it'll affect one or two people. Put a million dollars on the line. People play hard.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I'm all for.

[Max Kellerman]

Email us what you think.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, please. I'm all for there being a reward. I just like to be careful as it pertains to it always being money. Especially when it's. Especially. I'm just saying especially when it's. Especially when it's the black athlete, because it's.

[Max Kellerman]

I think the white athletes have played just as hard for that million.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. But I'm telling you, it's a deeper thing for me.

[Max Kellerman]

I get it. I see it's a deeper thing for you, but your disposition about it is tied to emotions about it. It's tied to it.

[Rich Paul]

It's not. I'm not, I'm not an emotional person. You can ask anybody.

[Max Kellerman]

Why is it more meaningful to you, which you started, you started down that lane by saying how it's more meaningful.

[Rich Paul]

Because I'm taking a business, a high level business approach. Who would, in my position, why wouldn't I want the players to make more money?

[Max Kellerman]

But there's something about the crudeness of the million, the superficiality of it. That you have a little allergy to based on what you brought up originally. Right. Which is like, here's the small bag right now. And that affects behavior and you resent it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I just don't.

[Max Kellerman]

But that could be affecting your judgment.

[Rich Paul]

No, I just look at it holistically and I don't think you need to do that. I think if you love the game and you're voted an All Star, I'll do something else. Okay. I'd rather. Instead of the money, right? Instead of the money.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, let's hear it.

[Rich Paul]

I'd rather you start to evaluate the play of each player and come out of the game. You evaluate the effort, you evaluate all. You keep track of all these things that has an effect on next year's vote to be an All Star.

[Max Kellerman]

How do you affect the next year vote? I don't get it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Because if the coaches vote for player. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I see.

[Rich Paul]

And then you're raising effort.

[Max Kellerman]

So when you factor in all the factors, it weighs it more heavily for you.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

That's not a bad idea.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Because the other thing is in these shoe contracts, they're also incentivized. Man.

[Max Kellerman]

There's something about it, though, like, Mike Tyson used to talk about this how in the old days, which, who knows if this ever existed, but he's like, what he really was saying is, hey, you put the prize, prize fighting. Put a bag of money down in the basement. Two guys go down in the basement, one comes up with the bag. Right. People like the idea of fighting for.

[Rich Paul]

The prize, but that's the difference.

[Max Kellerman]

And that's a simple one to understand. Million bucks each.

[Rich Paul]

I get what you're saying, and that's great for. I said you were right. In that case, I just look at it a little bit different. I'm going to look at it less fan like and more big picture. Yeah.

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[Max Kellerman]

There's some other stuff I wanted to talk about.

[Rich Paul]

Loyalty. You wanted to talk about?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. James Harden. James Harden makes a good point, I think when he said it's normal to be on multiple teams now and loyalty's overrated.

[Rich Paul]

It should have never been not normal.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, look, loyalty is fine if it's a two way street. The issue, what the players woke up to eventually is we are the player is supposed to be loyal to the team, but the team will trade you tomorrow.

[Rich Paul]

It's propaganda though, right?

[Max Kellerman]

But of course, but if teams were more loyal to players, then players would be more loyal to teams.

[Rich Paul]

But that goes back to again, you naturally gonna say, oh, because someone else did it, that means you should do it. But everybody's in a different position. So yes, of course you would love to only play for one team in the event that team is doing everything that it takes to keep you around. But if it isn't, then you have to go.

[Max Kellerman]

And you also just always have to be suspicious. Suspicious of any person or organization that tells you that you owe them your loyalty, but that loyalty is not reciprocated.

[Rich Paul]

And by the way, that goes back to the draft, how I owe you my loyalty when I wasn't allowed to.

[Max Kellerman]

Choose where I go, where I work my whole life to get to be the best in the world at what I do, or one of the 450 and then I have no say in where I live for sure.

[Rich Paul]

But because someone else did it, that means I supposed to do it. No, there is a world where you take things that people done well and how they did them well and you apply it to your everyday life if you could. But you're not gonna, you're not just gonna put your footprint in their footprint. It don't really, don't really work like that. And when you think about it even more, for each one of those franchises that the player stayed, the star player stayed, it was the star player. There's very few franchises where the Role players stayed now, ud, Nick Collison, you know, very few.

[Max Kellerman]

But again, even the best role player ever in terms of success, winning chips. Robert Horry bounced all around the league. All he did was win championships on every team. He wants you to.

[Rich Paul]

That's my point. So I think James was right in.

[Max Kellerman]

That there was a story that reminded me of what you've been saying a lot. Evan Turner said he thought he was Kobe. This is related to the Kaminga story. Evan Turner thought he was Kobe. So he was real mad when a coach told him he viewed him as Richard Jefferson. Right. But he said he would rather have had Richard Jefferson's career looking back on it. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Well that's, that's.

[Max Kellerman]

And this relates to Kaminga because Kaminga. There was a story that came out that Steve Kerr wanted Kaminga to play the. It was Aaron Gordon and there was someone else he met.

[Rich Paul]

The dunker spot, huh? Yeah, the dunker spot, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

He wants to play. But he mentioned another name. Yeah, Sean Marion. And I said Merriman, Shawn Marion and Aaron Gordon, who were drafted high up, who at one point were expected to carry a big part of the burden of scoring on their teams and who eventually got slotted into roles and because they had championship mentalities, played the thing, the role they were supposed to play and had a lot of success doing it. And Evan Turner thinks that, you know, he'd love to have Richard Jefferson's career.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. And that's great self aware, by the way. Evan Turner was a real player, right. From Evanston, Illinois, went to Ohio State, was a real player, number two pick in the draft, could do it all, really. And smart guy. But that's great self awareness. Looking back, the question is, can you gain that perspective early on.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Youth is wasted on the young.

[Rich Paul]

That's the key. That's the key. And it starts in youth sports because we roll the ball out and you say to the best player with the best talent, more athletic, do whatever you want to do. They don't have a perspective of who they actually could be. And I always say to guys, where do you think, what role you think you're going to play in the NBA? And I've had guys be like, oh, when I get in, I'm going to. No, you're not. You're barely going to touch the ball. You're probably going to have three or four, maybe five at the most shot attempts. You're going to have to. You need to learn how to be a great.

[Max Kellerman]

It's hard for them to hear though, because that's probably the first time someone told them, you're not good enough to be the thing you think you are.

[Rich Paul]

Well, well, well. The sooner you can learn this for most guys coming into the NBA, the better understand how to set screens properly. Hold it, Rich. It's hard.

[Max Kellerman]

So this is why it's hard.

[Rich Paul]

Pop it.

[Max Kellerman]

This is why short row for Kaminga. It's hard for a guy like Kaminga and I understand why. Because someone is going to be Kobe Bryant. Someone is going to be Michael Jordan, LeBron James.

[Rich Paul]

Do you know how hard it is to beat Kobe Bryant?

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, I get it, I get it. Or someone's going to be Tracy McGrady. Someone's going to be a young Vince Carter who eventually switched over to a role. But my point is the hardest thing is for the athlete that if you squint, maybe could be that. Like, it hasn't been determined yet. And I can see where Kaminga coming into the league, given his abilities, is not ready to say, I'm not just going to give up being that dude. Like, I need it to be proven to me. I think it has been proven he's not that dude. But he should accept the role. But at what point is he supposed.

[Rich Paul]

To realize that for most athletes, perspective is not only gained by them or should be gained by them. Perspective less than them. Perspective has to be gained and accepted by the people around them. That's the key. It's the people around you.

[Max Kellerman]

But at what point. I get that. But at what point?

[Rich Paul]

Day one.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, I'm saying Kaminga, you could evaluate so early and go, he's never going to be the primary scorer or the secondary scorer on a team. He's never. He doesn't have. He doesn't got it like that.

[Rich Paul]

Max. It takes me five minutes. Five, maybe less than five to evaluate a player.

[Max Kellerman]

Jamal Crawford coming out. When. When Jamal Crawford was young, I could understand and he became an incredible six man. But I could see where. And he accepted it, you know, like he had the right mentality. I could see where if someone with Jamal Crawford skills came out and said, forget that. I'm going to be the primary scorer on a team, on a championship team, I get why he would think that.

[Rich Paul]

No, I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

Jamal Crawford had absurd offensive skills.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But if you're saying you're going to be the primary scorer on a championship team where Jamal was elite at, was in the exact role he played in, he's coming off the bench, he's allowed to play his role. We need you in our second Unit because our starters are sitting to come in and put us on the heater, give us 18 a night.

[Max Kellerman]

What I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

And then there's some. And then there's going to be a time in the fourth quarter to where we may need you to run off six or nine.

[Max Kellerman]

How could he ever.

[Rich Paul]

Right. And he mastered it.

[Max Kellerman]

But what I'm saying, Rich, is for some people like Jamal Crawford, they have a high iq, whatever it is, they have certain maturity. They get it, they do it. But for someone else with Jamal Crawford's skills, maybe it's easy for you to tell. That's not going to be it. Quite. It's not mj, it's not Kobe. But there are some athletes who, if you give them Jamal Crawford's size and skills are like, I'm not giving up that idea so fast. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Well, then you won't play. It's very simple, Matt.

[Max Kellerman]

There are some borderline cases that are difficult.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, well, take all those guys that you're talking about. Where are they? They're not in NBA.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, I see it exactly as you do. We're on the same page. I'm saying I get why sometimes for some guys it's hard to accept.

[Rich Paul]

And I'm telling you, I don't get it. Because there's no way it could be hard to accept. If I told you, hey man, if you accept this role, you're gonna make 20 million to $25 million a year. Or if you wanna pretend and act like you're this bucket getter and you wanna do these things, you're gonna be in the G League, waived or play overseas. How is it hard to get? It's hard to get simple math.

[Max Kellerman]

Because they think that you're right. It ain't hard to get even if you turn out to be right at that moment in time, they don't believe you're right.

[Rich Paul]

It can't be hard to get 25 million or zero.

[Max Kellerman]

But they're saying, I don't believe you about the zero. I think I can choose.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, well, guess what? You had to believe me. Contracts are two years guaranteed. The next two years are team options as a rookie. After that you get to a second deal. Maybe if you get to a second deal and you get a deal that's one year guaranteed in the next two years are team options are non guaranteed. That tells you all you need to know.

[Max Kellerman]

No question I could do, but that takes several years.

[Rich Paul]

The only other thing I could do is write it on the side of a building downtown la as big as I can write it and get you a car service with no tent on the windows and ride past there with the building being on the side that you said.

[Max Kellerman]

But that doesn't happen on day one. That takes several years for them to get that evidence.

[Rich Paul]

Don't take several years. Coming into the league, the contract is two years guaranteed. The next two years are team options.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

That means it's. Right now, there is no if. You got two years. Let me tell you something. You're counting four. But two years of team options, that mean they don't have to do anything.

[Max Kellerman]

But if they exercise the options, the player is sitting there thinking, wait a minute.

[Rich Paul]

No, they're not.

[Max Kellerman]

They're not. So how long does it take for a player with squint skills? Meaning if you squint, they look like Kobe Bryant. Right. How long does it take for them.

[Rich Paul]

To seeing one player look like Kobe Bryant?

[Max Kellerman]

Jamal Crawford in the fourth quarter, if you squint, it looks like Michael Jordan. He did. Offensively, he did.

[Rich Paul]

I can understand why your font is the size that it is on that paper.

[Max Kellerman]

Jamal Crawford in the fourth quarter quarter was impossible.

[Rich Paul]

Jamal Crawford wouldn't tell you he looked like Michael Jordan.

[Max Kellerman]

That's why I said, if you squint. If you squint, squint.

[Rich Paul]

You can close your eyes.

[Max Kellerman]

You have to close your eyes. You have to dream.

[Rich Paul]

Windshield wipers on your eyes. What are you talking about? Sounds crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

I wanted to talk about the baseball owners. I might tease that for Monday.

[Rich Paul]

I was just with a couple baseball owners.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, the crying.

[Rich Paul]

We don't have to talk about it.

[Max Kellerman]

These owners do. It's unbelievable. Jeff Passon wrote an interesting article.

[Rich Paul]

I like Jeff.

[Max Kellerman]

About it. I like Jeff. Yeah. About there could be a labor stoppage in baseball.

[Rich Paul]

Let's talk about it on Monday.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's do it on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, let's do it on Monday. Yeah. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

I have to get to the Tech summit.

[Max Kellerman]

Go.

[Rich Paul]

But this was good.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

But you had some head scratcher.

[Max Kellerman]

Head scratcher. At some point, these guys are gonna get the evidence. But you're asking them. You're telling them that. Trust me, I already know. That's not you.

[Rich Paul]

It's overtime.

[Max Kellerman]

And they're saying, I need evidence before I know, before I.

[Rich Paul]

They're not sending me evidence. They're reluctant to understand how they can be successful by playing a role because their dream and the ego and the people around them are also reluctant to be honest with them and ultimately is counterproductive because it's stopping your growth, which then Allows you to be in a position for the long haul.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's a good description. Let's end on that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

All right, perfect.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail].

[Max Kellerman]

That'S the email.

[Rich Paul]

That's the email.

[Max Kellerman]

You give us comments.

[Rich Paul]

I'm only giving the email out.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm gonna talk about that passing article on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

Do you remember anybody's phone number from when you were young, if you lost your phone?

[Max Kellerman]

I remember some. Like, I remember certain numbers from when I'm young. I don't know anyone's number right now. Everything's in my phone. I don't know a single person's number. I barely know my own number. I know my own number, but barely.

[Rich Paul]

There is a number I know to one of my closest friends begins with 681. I know that number. I do know my number. The house I grew up in. But there's no need for me to call that number. My Dad's store was 2490219, but it's tore down. The pay phone is gone. I do remember that number. I remember some numbers, but I had to.

[Max Kellerman]

How about this one? Back when there were rotary phones and my mother used to literally rent the phone from the phone company, right? And it was a rotary phone like, ma, can we just buy a push button phone? So I need a number to open pit when they switched the area codes in New York because New York used to be no area codes. Then all of a sudden, if you wanted to call Brooklyn, it's 7:18 in.

[Rich Paul]

New York and everywhere there was no area codes.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm saying, like in the same city you had different area codes. Now, right? If you were calling your friend in Brooklyn and your finger slipped on the last digit, you're dialing 11 things having to wait. It was a torture.

[Rich Paul]

I know. And we had a rotary phone to like at my grandmother's house.

[Max Kellerman]

She was probably renting that from the family.

[Rich Paul]

1998. No, seriously. In my uncle child. We'll talk about it on. All right, let's get out of here.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's go.

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