NBA Playoff Time, Rory Wins the Masters, and Doc Out in Milwaukee | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul – Episode Summary

Host: The Ringer
Release Date: April 13, 2026
Episode Title: NBA Playoff Time, Rory Wins the Masters, and Doc Out in Milwaukee

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive into a packed sports weekend: the NBA Playoffs kickoff, Rory McIlroy wins another Masters (back-to-back), and the Milwaukee Bucks part ways with Doc Rivers. The conversation flows from inside stories at the Masters and boxing contracts to in-depth NBA playoff analysis and the changing legacies of sports legends. The hosts' blend of humor, insider knowledge, and business acumen delivers an insightful look at the major headlines in sports and culture.

---

Key Topics & Highlights

1. Sports Business & Masters Experience

• Masters: Commerce & Networking

  • Rich describes the Masters as a “Coachella for CEOs” (02:09), emphasizing its status as a premier networking and business event beyond just golf.
  • Rich shares stories of attending with Delta (Delta360), the hospitality, and getting to meet golf legends like Gary Player and Jack Nicklaus.
  • Notable Quote:

    “The Masters really is… a Coachella for CEOs.” – Rich Paul (02:09)

• Golf & Business

  • Discussion about how business gets done on golf courses and an idea spun up mid-show for "The Back Nine," a business-focused talk show set on a golf course (06:04).

2. Boxing & Sports Crossovers

• Zufa Boxing Announcement
  • Max recounts hosting a press conference in Miami where Zufa Boxing signed Edgar Berlanga and Richardson Hitchens.
  • Conversation centers on how distinguishing potential superstars in boxing mirrors the NBA’s process with prospects (03:06–04:40).

3. NBA Playoffs Deep Dive

• Separation of Talent: Jeff Green vs. Kevin Durant

  • Rich and Max debate what elevates a player from good to great, especially when skillsets are comparable out of college.
  • Notable Quote:

    “What makes a player have the separation when they come in having the same skill set and same talent?” – Rich Paul (07:58)

  • They discuss the shrinking gap between All-Stars and solid rotation players (09:11), using Jeff Green’s career as a springboard.

• Lakers vs. Rockets

  • Max argues that LeBron has one of the NBA’s weakest supporting casts—no “average” starters surround him.

    “LeBron James is not playing with a single other average starter... LeBron might not have a single guy he’s playing with who would start on the majority of teams in the NBA.” – Max Kellerman (12:16)

  • Both hosts agree that LeBron, like throughout his career, is being asked to do more with less, and that Houston’s elite supporting cast gives them the edge.

• Knicks vs. Hawks

  • The series is dubbed “scary” and a possible trap for the Knicks. Style matchups are dissected, particularly the threat posed by Atlanta’s switch-heavy, versatile defenders, and the importance of Jalen Brunson.
  • Notable Quote:

    “Carl Anthony Towns is going to have to be… If he decides to impose himself physically, the Knicks should win in under seven.” – Max Kellerman (17:55)

  • Rich points out that if the series goes seven games, the Knicks could be in serious trouble.

• Denver Nuggets vs. Minnesota Timberwolves

  • Discussion on who is the league’s next American “face”—debate between Cooper Flagg and Anthony Edwards.
  • Jamal Murray’s clutch playoff performances draw a baseball analogy:

    “Jamal Murray... is in that El Duque, Valenzuela level of damn, I knew he was good, but with the chips on him, so… he becomes an all time great!” – Max Kellerman (27:58)

  • Both lean Denver due to clutch players, continuity, and Jokic’s all-time offense (28:15).

• Cavs vs. Raptors

  • The series is labeled a “trap” for the Cavs; Toronto’s length, defense, and history make the upset possible.
  • Rich asserts Garland may have been the best pro among his draft peers (32:40–32:54).

• Play-In Tournament X-Factor

  • Rich singles out the Trail Blazers as a “dangerous” play-in team while giving credit to Ty Lue’s coaching job with the Clippers (35:17–36:13).

4. NBA MVP and Playoff Awards

• Regular Season MVP Debate
  • Max dismisses the importance of the regular season MVP, calling it “the biggest bullshit award in the world.” (39:52)
  • Rich considers splitting the award between Wemby, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and Jokic (41:09).

5. Masters Recap & Rory McIlroy’s Legacy

• Rich Paul’s Inside Look at the Masters
  • Stories about VIP treatment, Masters-only swag, and the appreciation he feels for such access and kindness (41:42–48:52).
  • Rory’s win is placed in historic context with Tiger and Nicklaus; hosts ponder if Rory could become golf’s clear #3 all-time (50:05).

6. Legacies, Coaching, and Aging Stars

• Doc Rivers Out in Milwaukee

  • Discussion on how “the gravy years” post-prime can sometimes tarnish a legacy, using Doc Rivers, Russell Wilson, Roy Jones Jr., and Bill Belichick as case studies (53:22–56:10).
  • Max wonders if Doc Rivers’ recent struggles actually diminish his Hall of Fame status.

• Floyd Mayweather vs. Pacquiao II?

  • Max reveals Floyd reportedly signed a contract for a real (non-exhibition) rematch with Pacquiao, with complicated business implications if Floyd tries to walk it back (56:10–59:49).

• Milwaukee Bucks: Rebuild or Reload?

  • Rich argues Milwaukee is well-positioned to reset and “turn over the soil” without a full teardown, advising Giannis not to rush to leave (60:08–62:54).
  • Debate over whether Bucks missed the perfect timing to trade Giannis for maximum return (63:00).

7. Lighthearted Mailbag & Cultural Moments

• Mount Rushmore of NBA Players under 6 Foot
  • Immediate consensus: Allen Iverson, Isaiah Thomas (the first), Mark Price, and Chris Paul (67:38–71:18)
• Shooting Form/Philosophy
  • Rich gives practical advice: “You should know why you miss... develop a shooting routine, get a lot of shots up, but shoot the same shot every time.” (72:03)
• Rap Music
  • A listener points out they never mention Kendrick Lamar; hosts acknowledge he’s “a beast.” (71:27–71:45)

8. Teaser for Next Episode

• Upcoming Interview:
  • Warren Moon, Shaq Harris, and Doug Williams (pioneering Black quarterbacks and subjects of Peacock's new series "Field Generals") will join the next episode for a roundtable.

---

Memorable Quotes

• On the Masters as a Business Event:

  “The Masters really is… a Coachella for CEOs.” – Rich Paul (02:09)

• On LeBron’s Roster:

  “LeBron James is not playing with a single other average starter... LeBron might not have a single guy he’s playing with who would start on the majority of teams in the NBA.” – Max Kellerman (12:16)

• Defining Greatness:

  “If your definition of greatness... there's never been a player in basketball history that can take any group of guys ... farther than LeBron.” – Max Kellerman (15:43)

• Jamal Murray’s Clutch Factor:

  “This dude is… a B+ player through the year and an A+ player in the playoffs.” – Max Kellerman (27:59)

• On Sports Legacies:

  “Sometimes what you do after your best can affect your legacy because it can seem to illuminate what was.” – Max Kellerman (53:26)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Masters Business & Networking: 00:48–05:42, 41:42–48:52
• Boxing, Prospects & Zufa Press Conference: 02:55–05:14
• NBA Playoffs: Talent & Roster Analysis: 07:49–23:52
• Playoff Matchups & Predictions: 09:11–33:06
• Play-In Tournament X-Factor: 35:12–36:59
• NBA MVP Debate: 39:50–41:40
• Rory’s Masters Win & Golf Legacy: 48:52–52:15
• Doc Out in Milwaukee & Coaching Gravy Years: 53:22–64:57
• Giannis’s Future & Bucks Rebuild: 60:08–66:58
• Mailbag (Under-6ft NBA Greats, Shooting Tips, Kendrick Lamar): 67:31–73:39
• Upcoming Episode Preview (Field Generals): 73:57–77:18

---

Tone & Style

The episode stays true to Max and Rich’s style: conversational, witty, and well-versed in both the sports/culture overlap and sports industry mechanics. Rich injects personal appreciation and stories, while Max anchors the show with stats, analogies, and theoretical debates on legacy and greatness. Both frequently riff on one another with good-natured banter.

---

Useful For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• Get context on why the Masters is important beyond golf.
• Understand current NBA playoff narratives, the strengths/weaknesses of top teams, and what differentiates good from great players.
• Hear unique perspectives on the pressures aging stars face managing their legacies.
• Catch early buzz on a possible Mayweather–Pacquiao rematch and what that means for boxing history.
• Explore the contemporary business of sports via real anecdotes and hypothetical strategic moves (like Bucks and Giannis).
• Benefit from practical basketball shooting advice direct from an NBA agent.
• Anticipate a rare, historical conversation with Black NFL quarterback pioneers teased for the next show.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

This episode is brought to you by Loom. When your calendar is all status meetings and your teams are still misaligned, it's easy to feel stuck. Get your org unstuck with Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian. Record a Loom to share priorities, feedback, and key decisions. AI makes video editing one click and adds instant summaries so everyone from direct reports to partner teams gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. With Loom, teams stay aligned and focus on work that matters. It's a team changer. Try loom [e-mail]. So, Rich, eventful weekend for us.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, individually. You will were at the Masters.

[Rich Paul]

No, I wasn't.

[Max Kellerman]

You weren't?

[Rich Paul]

No. Why would you say that?

[Max Kellerman]

Where did. Where were you?

[Rich Paul]

I was at the Masters, but I.

[Max Kellerman]

Am I missing something?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm joking with you because my hat. Remember on the movie. You see the John Gotti movie?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but I don't remember the John Gotti movie.

[Rich Paul]

No. When he was telling the story and he was saying they were in the. In the Reaganites, and he was saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He was saying, you know, the guy walks in and his ring says JoJo, his bracelet says JoJo, his hat says JoJo. And he goes, hey, Jojo. And he goes, how'd you know my name? So when you saw Max, but also,

[Max Kellerman]

I know you were at Augusta.

[Rich Paul]

No, I was. No, I was.

[Max Kellerman]

And, like, big things happened.

[Rich Paul]

You know what, man? And I'll talk about this in my get rich quick. But remember on the last show, you thought I was BSing when I said Max. I'm telling you, it's. And you may not still agree. You're a boxing fan. I get it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But it's such a great sporting event.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. But. But that you. You view everything through the lens of how much business can you get done? So in terms of networking business, the Masters is tough to beat.

[Rich Paul]

You know what? I can't fight that. Because you know what the Masters really is outside of the participants in golf, It's a Coachella for CEOs.

[Max Kellerman]

A coach, CEO Coachella. Exactly.

[Rich Paul]

That's what it is. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. But you know what? I'm not mad at that.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you're in business.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I think sometimes people think in my position, it's only to watch basketball games and only to do basketball contracts, but it's really a layered business that we're in brand partners, and I'm across all of it. So it's something that I look forward to going to every year. But you also have.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, that's why I have my Miami clothes on.

[Rich Paul]

You look very.

[Max Kellerman]

I just got back from Miami.

[Rich Paul]

You look very Hyman Roth.

[Max Kellerman]

You could have said Crockett. You could have said Crockett, but you went Hyman Roth could have been Crockett.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, you're Miami Vice guy. You don't drive a Corvette, do you? Ferrari?

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, no. But listen, I was down in Miami. I hosted the press conference for Zufa Boxing because we just signed Edgar Berlanga, who's a big punching Puerto Rican fighter out of New York.

[Rich Paul]

No, that guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. First 16 fights were first round knockouts. Then he went the distance with Canelo. He lost, but he went the distance. And so we signed him up. He lost the fight, that guy. But listen, because when you knock everyone out in the first round, you don't have any experience.

[Rich Paul]

I thought sure they was going to test his gloves, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, he went the distance with Canelo. That's pretty good. And then Richardson Hitchens, who's top flight 140 pounder at Zufuido and do junior division. So he'll be fighting welterweight, but 147. But Richardson Hitchens is one of these dudes where just like in the NBA you see a prospect, you see a draft prospect. A lot of these dudes are fast, A lot of them have hops, a lot of them have handles, a lot of them can shoot. Who is going to emerge, like it's not always obvious who is like the difference between other than height, who's going to be Jeff Green, good player and who's going to be kd.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, you know, except for KD was also taller. But I mean, you get the idea, like who is going to emerge as a role player, good player and who's going to be a superstar? Boxing is the same way. A lot of guys have good jabs, a lot of guys are fast. A lot of guys, you know, have good amateur background. Who is when, as the competition increases, going to separate themselves. So Richardson Hitchens, undefeated, has separated himself. He's an elite fighter and now the question is, is he a great fighter? Like can he beat other elite fighters? And we're going to find out. So both those guys got signed by Zufa and I hosted the press conference.

[Rich Paul]

I have to make a fight. I have to make a fight. Yeah, yeah. Come to a fight, you got to let me know. I need to know early the next one that's going to be in Vegas.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Are they on Saturdays or Sundays.

[Max Kellerman]

So Zufa boxing, a lot of times is on Sundays.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's the tough part.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. In Vegas, we got fights coming up in London.

[Rich Paul]

But what we could do.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

What we could do is if the fight is Sunday in Vegas, could just shoot the show from Vegas.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I'm saying. Yeah, Right. Maybe we do a Sunday night situation.

[Rich Paul]

We could do that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And I could play Shadow Creek or the Summit.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just, if you want to know. So there's a famous scene in on the Waterfront with Marlon Brando. You know, I could have been a contender. Right. That movie where he's. He has to, like, walk down the dock and he's. People are like, oh, my God, that was an amazing. You look so determined. Like, what was your motivation? And Brandon's like, it was cold as shit out, man, and I was freezing. I wanted to get through the seat.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. That's like. Sometimes motivation for behavior is very simple. If you want to know why Rich Paul does anything, there's two reasons. It's either business or golf. And sometimes that's the same thing. Right. Like golf is your. Because you could be on the course doing business.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Right. So it's your dream come true. It's like you're two business.

[Rich Paul]

Done. The back nine in the boardroom.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That's where you get it.

[Max Kellerman]

So who needs the boardroom? Back nine becomes.

[Rich Paul]

The back nine becomes boardroom. Yeah, absolutely. So much better view.

[Max Kellerman]

So. Right. By the way, there's a show we should do. The back nine, and it'll be a business show.

[Rich Paul]

Done.

[Max Kellerman]

Done. All right.

[Rich Paul]

Easy.

[Max Kellerman]

Copyrighted.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I actually have another idea for the back nine.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, really? Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

All right. You ready to start the show?

[Max Kellerman]

Does anything has to be paused or it's all right?

[Rich Paul]

No, you said something earlier today that was crazy. Yeah. No.

[Max Kellerman]

You ready to do the show?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

GameOverPotify.com Game over with Max Kellerman, Rich Paul and Rich would say please subscribe. I would just say subscribe.

[Rich Paul]

How about I'm switching?

[Max Kellerman]

If you want to be entertained or don't.

[Rich Paul]

How about please continue to subscribe.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. And tell all your friends while you're at it. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA post season is here, and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team is winning along with them. Let's be honest, FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut. Max, Yo.

[Rich Paul]

You just mentioned something that I found very interesting.

[Max Kellerman]

What's up?

[Rich Paul]

It's not a part of the show, but Jeff Green and kd, Right? You mentioned that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

What makes. Because what makes a player have the separation when they come in having the same skill set and same talent? Because I know people going to say, rich, you sound crazy. And I'm not comparing Jeff Green and Kevin Durant at the very close.

[Max Kellerman]

Close out of college.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they're close friends. They're also from the DMV area that is full of ballers. Always have been full of ballers. But Jeff Green was really good, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Skill set wise out of college. I remember thinking Jeff Green could be the best player in this draft class. You don't know how that's gonna go. You just don't know.

[Rich Paul]

He just. And he went to Georgetown, so he didn't get as much of the pub that he probably would have had had he gone to Duke or North Carolina at that time. But man, Jeff Green. I just, I'm just thinking about it when you mentioned Jeff Green because remember we talked about that Game 7 when the Cavs went and beat Boston. In Boston, it was Jeff Green, although LJ had an unbelievable game, but Jeff Green had an unbelievable game.

[Max Kellerman]

Jeff Green's one of those guys I think of when I say like the gap between All Star and just rotation player has shrunk in the NBA where you have a lot of guys who are rotation players who aren't all stars. But if you said, okay, the star has gone down, we need you to carry the load for a couple weeks. And you squint hard to say if they're an All Star or not. We saw that with Mikael Bridges when he was in Brooklyn averaging 20 whatever a night. Right. I didn't know he could do that when he was in Phoenix, but he can. He's capable of doing that. And then you go to another team, you gotta be a role player again. And everyone's like, what happened to that same guy? He's just being asked to do something different.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And remember he had the health condition. Jeff Green did. But I said something about if you're in the NBA, you want a bunch of these guys. I forgot which name I mentioned before. Remember I said you want, oh, Scottie Pippen.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're saying you want every player to be Scottie Pippen?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You want a bunch of Jeff Greens. Right. Today you want a bunch of Jeff Green.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, what's the difference between Jeff Green and a guy like KD or Cooper Flag? A lot of it is Jeff Green's what, six, six, six, seven? No, not even six, five taller. Oh, Jeff Green is six eight, six nine.

[Rich Paul]

Six, eight, six, nine. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I thought of Jeff Green as 6667.

[Rich Paul]

No, no chance. No chance.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe I'm thinking reality. And yeah, in the NBA, he's 7ft tall, but he's not KD's height is the point. KD is a different.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yeah, no, kd, obviously. And he doesn't shoot as well as kd. KD did. I wasn't comparing the two. I was just saying when you brought up Jeff Green, it just reminded me that, wow, this guy previously of the health scare, just the skill set. And when you look at today's game,

[Max Kellerman]

he's what you're looking for.

[Rich Paul]

Everyone wants a player like Jeff Green, but go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

You like five guys like that on your bench? For sure. Maybe one or two starting rotation. Five guys on your bench?

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. And you want in your locker room, too. Green's character is off the charts.

[Max Kellerman]

Which playoff series are you most looking forward to?

[Rich Paul]

All of them.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, let's start with Rockets and Lakers or Lakers and Rockets. You know what occurs to me about this series? What, Rich? So when I say average NBA starter, what I mean is there are 30 teams. Are you between like 12 and 18 at your position? There are 30 guys playing your position starting. Are you between the 12th and 18th best or even 10th and 20th best? Right. Are you in that middle range? LeBron James is not playing with a single other average starter. In fact, and I like Hachimura. I think he's like Hachimora. Hachimura would not start on many, many, many teams. He's not a starter on the Lakers, he's a starter. Think about other players on the Lakers who start most of. Like Deandre Ayton. Is he one of the 12 best bigs in the league? Probably not, right? It may be the strongest case could be Ayton as an average starter, but maybe not. LeBron is basically playing with guys who wouldn't start on a. If you're below average at your position, that means you would not start on the majority of teams in the NBA. By definition, LeBron might not have a single guy he's playing with who would start on the majority of teams in the NBA. Not a single guy. You could make the argument KD Sengun, if he's not elite, he's the next thing to it.

[Rich Paul]

No, he's really good.

[Max Kellerman]

Really good.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Thompson is really good.

[Rich Paul]

Really good. A jump shot away from being perennial Off. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Or close to it. But he's a defensive specialist in a way that's hard to find.

[Rich Paul]

And his athleticism is off the chart.

[Max Kellerman]

Reed is a good player. Like what they don't have. They don't have a secondary playmaker on that team, and that's what KD is missing. So they pay a lot of attention to him. But my point is, here's LeBron and KD matching up toward the end of their careers. And as usual, KD has a much, much better crew than LeBron and like LeBron is simply working with much less and is very likely to lose the series.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, you're. Look, you don't have to have even a set of eyes to see the difference between the two teams in this series. It's unfortunate because, you know, the Lakers just caught the injury bug at the very, very last 10 games of the season, which is a tough thing. On the flip side, for the young players on the Lakers, it's opportunity. It's an opportunity for you to show

[Max Kellerman]

get your ass whooped. What do you mean? What is it an opportunity?

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the thing. It is an opportunity for you to gain some ground on whether I belong in the NBA or not. Like, I don't look. See, here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

I think laravia tries to play the right way. He does.

[Rich Paul]

He's hard.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, who's, you know, Come on.

[Rich Paul]

But see, here's the thing. I personally do not look at garbage time in a game. I don't look at a playoff series. Whether you. The outcome of it. I'm looking at a different game than most people. So I. I understand your point. And for the fans and obviously the playoff situation, yes, we would love to see this series be super interesting.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, if you have Luka and Austin Reaves, I think I would have favored the Lakers in the series because KD really needs another scoring threat. Right?

[Rich Paul]

100%.

[Max Kellerman]

If the Rockets had Van Vliet, it's a pretty easy call. Rockets probably gonna win the series. We without Van Vliet, it's the Lakers without Reaves and Luca. It's pretty clearly going to Be the Rockets. Who you got? What? What clients? What client?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no.

[Max Kellerman]

Just between you and me.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. No clients.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll cut this out.

[Rich Paul]

Look, here's the other thing I. LeBron has always played better with less. He's done that since high school. He's always had the. The. Although his teams were really good, it's not like he played with other all Americans in high school. Even on those Cavaliers teams, he probably had one or two guys that make the All Star team. Maybe. I think Mo Williams made it one time. I think Z made it.

[Max Kellerman]

If your definition of greatness, the strongest argument you can make for LeBron being the goat, it's not a great argument, but the strongest one you can make is there's never been a player in basketball history that can take any group of guys. They don't have to be really good. Farther than LeBron. Yeah, he can take the worst group the far.

[Rich Paul]

But that. But again, he's always played the right way. And I think, you know, people, they add all these former players up and say, oh, he played with this person. Yeah, but those guys wasn't even in their prime. Those guys were. If you put him with prime, shaq, he has 12 rings you talk about. So. But. So I'm not. He, he, he.

[Max Kellerman]

Long as neither one's taking a free throw at the end of the game, they would never lose.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I always thought both of those guys could have probably shot the free throw better.

[Max Kellerman]

They could have. Yeah. What was LeBron mid-70s for his career?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But he probably should have been about 88.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. And. Or at least over 80.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And Shaq was in the 50s somewhere.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. That's just. To me, that's always been a rhythm thing, a routine thing. If you change it every single time, it's going to be tough, but.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But down the stretch, at least one for two when it mattered most.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. In that game. In that Game 7 against Golden State, he needed to hit one. Just the game, and he hit it just one.

[Rich Paul]

But, but in. In those moments, he actually shot. Shot the free throw a little bit better.

[Max Kellerman]

That's true. I agree. He was not actually the liability that people try to make it out. If you said 75, you're gonna hit 304, you're gonna be all right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but. But, yeah, I think that series. But I'm more excited. Forget who wins.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

We're not going to see KD and LeBron for the next 10 years.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So I'm not taking that part for granted. Like, I want to See that thing?

[Max Kellerman]

I agree.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And my point is, as usual, KD will win, and KD adherents will point to that. Oh, look, he beat LeBron again. But every time that happens, it's because KD's crew is a mismatch with LeBron's crew.

[Rich Paul]

So as a boxing match, you would say LeBron has on one glove.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, LeBron has one hand tied behind his back.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, that's tough.

[Max Kellerman]

In terms of his teammates, he does. Knicks, Hawks.

[Rich Paul]

This is a good one.

[Max Kellerman]

This is a scary one for sure.

[Rich Paul]

This is a scary one. The Knicks could lose.

[Max Kellerman]

The Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

The Knicks could lose this series.

[Max Kellerman]

It's going to be. Carl Anthony Towns is going to have to be. It can't be Cat. It's got to be dog. Right? Like, he's going to be. He's going to be. If he decides to impose himself physically, physically on the game. The Knicks should win in under seven. But he doesn't always do that.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I always say styles make fights. This style of play for the Knicks has to be inside out, because that's where the advantage is. If you play a perimeter game, the Hawks could switch everything. They have Jalen, they have Nikhil Alexander, Walker, they have Dyson Daniels, they have Big O. And the. The good thing about Big O is, yeah, you would say, well, Cat's seven feet tall.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a mismatch.

[Rich Paul]

But because he plays on the perimeter a lot, Big O can actually move his feet.

[Max Kellerman]

You got a guy who can defend the modern big.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Then you bring in a C.J. mcCullum who has the playoff experience, who can close a game.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Because once he get to his dribble series and get space.

[Max Kellerman]

But he's not a point guard. No, he's not a point forward. They run their team through a point forward.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but. And that's where I think the advantage is in the half court set.

[Max Kellerman]

Unless Rich. Unless Jalen Johnson presents a problem for the Knicks because the primary ball handler is big, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, that could also work to your advantage.

[Rich Paul]

He will. But they also present a problem on the other end. Because now when you're switching everything you got left when, when the Celtics won the championship that year, you switch. You had Jeru, you switched to Jalen, you switched to Derrick White, you switched to Jayson Tatum. Like, you're not creating a mismatch. So with the Hawks, and they've always. That's why they gave the Cavs problems. You're switching onto James Johnson, then you're switching on to Nakil, then you're switching on to Dyson Daniels. We forgot they traded for Kaminga. We'll see how he plays.

[Max Kellerman]

Kaminga is funny because in that series he started out really good, but what started it seems to affect him a little bit is like, I don't want to insult anybody. Basketball iq, right? Like the same thing maybe why he couldn't fit in at Golden State. And remember I was critical of Gold. First I was critical of Kaminga, then I was critical of Golden State because he was playing so well. And then it's like, then it goes,

[Rich Paul]

you know, well, midseason trades are tough. You're trying to fit in, you're trying to come into a locker room and you know, blend in with the guys. So I think Quinn will have those guys prepared. And I think there is a world where just in terms of, on the defensive end, just that size and that

[Max Kellerman]

athleticism, you have long, you have six, six plus athletic guys with long arms everywhere you look.

[Rich Paul]

So I know this series may seem to be lopsided.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a tough series.

[Rich Paul]

I don't think so. And I think this series could go seven. And if it goes seven, that is a, that is dangerous for the Knicks. Now it'll be in New York. But you don't want this series going seven.

[Max Kellerman]

The reason I think the Knicks win the series is because in this is the reason, like when people talk about the greatest player of all time. If you go back before the three point shot to me, after MJ and now LeBron, the guy who has to be in consideration with Kareem is Bill Russell. Because when, cause he never lost to the side in game, right? Like when he gets to the, in the amateurs, the pros, college, whatever, high school, the pro, you know, Celtics. If it gets down to that deciding game, if it goes seven, what it means is the teams are pretty evenly matched. And then it comes down to who has the best player, right? The team with the best player almost always wins that seven game series. So. So I like the Knicks because I think the best player on either team is Jalen Brunson. I think he's the best player. I know Johnson is good and he has and he's progressing in his career. But if I have to say who the best players, I think it's Jalen

[Rich Paul]

Brunson has two guys, that's two all NBA guys. I think Jalen Johnson should make an all NBA team this year, maybe this year, maybe 13 this year. And Jalen Brunson, obviously the difference in this series could be again, you have to put a taller guy On Jalen Brunson, he's great using his body, creating space, et cetera, to get to the jump shot. He shoots the three really well.

[Max Kellerman]

He's just got a crazy will to win too. And he does Luka, like, look how far he got in the playoffs in the past. And that style can win.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

When he had that guy, when he had Brunson. Right. As soon as you took Brunson off the team, it did not look the same.

[Rich Paul]

Well, this is where the second unit comes in. And I think oftentimes Mike Brown plays Brunson with that second unit. That way he can do his thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So this series is going to be about how can the Hawks.

[Max Kellerman]

That's interesting. Brunson is not only the floor general with the starters play him with, he's also the sixth man. Exactly. That's right. That's interesting.

[Rich Paul]

Exactly. So McCollum could be that for the Hawks.

[Max Kellerman]

But, but, but, but now they lose the thing where the switchability is there.

[Rich Paul]

But Brunson is a natural born born point guard. His dad, who was McCollum off guard? Yeah. Rick Brunson. Was that. Come down, get the defense set up. I mean, offense set up. He played great, D. That was his entire career. His son has another level, another layer of offensive skill set. But at his core, at his foundation, he was taught how to control the game and play the game the right way.

[Max Kellerman]

Brunson is not a shooting guard in a point guard's body. No, he's a point guard.

[Rich Paul]

He's a point guard that has shooting guard skill set.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, exactly.

[Rich Paul]

But McCollum is a shooting guard.

[Max Kellerman]

He's a shooting guard, point guard in a court guard's frame.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

He can run your offense, but you'd rather someone else.

[Rich Paul]

If the game is close and it's a tie game or you down one and the Hawks have the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

McCollum.

[Rich Paul]

You fear McCollum.

[Max Kellerman]

You fear McCOllum. Exactly. He's built for that moment.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Denver and Minnesota. You know why I think this is interesting, Rich?

[Rich Paul]

Why?

[Max Kellerman]

Because I asked you a couple months ago of all the American born players and I actually agreed with you at the time, but I think.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think my mind has changed

[Max Kellerman]

a little bit too. Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think Cooper Flagg is actually the answer to this. Because he's half a foot taller. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Well, at the time, Cooper, I mean, he played.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He played big still. He was. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But you said Ant Edwards could be the face of the league or maybe already is.

[Rich Paul]

And no not already is. I said, I said in the community

[Max Kellerman]

of Face of the League.

[Rich Paul]

He was leading the pack at the start of that season.

[Max Kellerman]

And really I think the real issue with Ant and this is what stopped Dwyane Wade from being even at the next level of all time greats, even though he's all the way up there, is when you're six four, it's look, the basket's way up in the air, right. It selects out for height. You can be a great shorter player, but it's easier to be a great bigger player. It's an advantage. 64 players get to a certain level, especially if they have that wing. Great style. Right. But Edwards is not going to be Quite Kobe or MJ because he's 2 inches shorter than those guys. Same thing with Dwyane Wade and Edwards are six' six. We're talking about them with Kobe and mj, Right. They're just a little bit shorter. It makes a little difference. But still he's been incredible. And Jokic has come on at the end of the season. I mean, he's an MVP candidate obviously.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe still the best player in the world. If Wemby's not available. Right. Who wins that series?

[Rich Paul]

This series. I'm going to go with Denver this series

[Max Kellerman]

because Minnesota's got some size they can throw at Jokic. They disrupted him. They hurried his offense up to when they got past him a couple years ago.

[Rich Paul]

They do. I think they're missing point guard play. Watson is out for Denver, which is, which will be tough as the playoffs continues. I didn't think Minnesota had a great. They really had a real up and down year this year. Been a weird year, but has been weird.

[Max Kellerman]

They've been playing well last couple games,

[Rich Paul]

but they do have the, the, the. The guy that can get you 40 every night and, and, and a big

[Max Kellerman]

body and a great defender to throw at Jokic.

[Rich Paul]

They do. And so it's close, but I would, I would, I would go with Denver.

[Max Kellerman]

I like Denver here because if you have Jokic and Aaron Gordon and obviously Jamal Murray.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me say something about Jamal Murray. Remember my levels of clutch. The highest level is like Mariano Rivera or Michael Jordan. You're the best who ever did it. But somehow under pressure in the biggest stage, you get significantly better than you normally are at the highest level. And then to me, the next highest level of clutch is not the Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant level, which is way high up there, which is. You're among the greatest who ever did it. And when it matters the most, you're still yourself. So that's a great player and that's really valuable. But I think there's a level of clutch above that, which is you're a really good player, maybe even a great player, but under pressure you become an all time great. I mentioned baseball pitchers. El Duque, Fernando Valenzuela, Curt Schilling. Those guys weren't the greatest anyone's ever seen, but they were, to varying degrees, really, really good. But. But man, when it mattered most, they killed you. And Jamal Murray is in that category. To me, this dude is A. This year aside, cause he's playing at a, at his best level ever in the regular season. But generally he's been like a B plus player through the year and an A player.

[Rich Paul]

A plus plus.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. He is in that El Duque Valenzuela level of damn, I knew he was good, but with the chips on them, so that makes them live against anyone. Plus they have maybe the best player in the world, one of the greatest of all time in Jokic. Plus Aaron Gordon's the perfect fit and

[Rich Paul]

he still have continuity. They have continuity.

[Max Kellerman]

They've been there before.

[Rich Paul]

I think the pieces they added, Hardaway, Cam Johnson, shooting, you know, brought Bruce Brown back, who had the familiarity there.

[Max Kellerman]

They got like Hardaway and Cam Johnson. They have like six men types who can do some scoring, get and get their own shot if they need to, but they don't play defense Rich like I think they get by the T Wolves. But if Wemby's healthy, like I don't see how they beat OKC or the spurs over seven games when they don't defend well.

[Rich Paul]

We have to keep in mind that, you know, Adam has done a great job, but he's. This is his first year coaching. So I think that's something you'll probably take a look at in the summertime and come back in with that. But. Or not in the summertime, you actually got to look at it right now to say, hey guys, if there's a weakness for us, it's here. I need a better effort on the defensive end. The game slows down. I think throughout the course of a season, guys get, you know, mentally fatigued. And so depending on what night you saw them, they might have been, you know, just kind of out of it a little bit defensively or just figure, you know what, we're just going to outscore people and win the game. But I think in the playoffs you'll see an increase in their defensive effort.

[Max Kellerman]

I really believe that, you know, that's the Thing that stops Jokic from being in the goat conversation. Like, if Jokic was a good defensive player, there'd be a serious conversation. Because offensively he's as good as anyone ever. Right? I would say, except MJ. But he's. He's like. He's Larry Bird, LeBron James, Magic Johnson tier offense. You run your whole offense to him. Plus he can shoot. And he's going to lead. He's leading. He's going to lead the league. Or rather, he led the league this year in rebounds and assists.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

How do you do both those things? Plus, this dude is scoring 25 plus a game.

[Rich Paul]

That's nuts.

[Max Kellerman]

So if he was a defender, but he's not a defender. Well, he can add a defender if he. That's what's separating him from maybe being the greatest of all time. But also, like, the team doesn't have a lot of defenders on it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Cass. Raptors are interesting.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that is an interesting series, actually.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You like your guys?

[Rich Paul]

My guys?

[Max Kellerman]

Cavs.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, I'm from Cleveland, but I wasn't a Cavs fan growing up.

[Max Kellerman]

Who'd you root for growing up?

[Rich Paul]

The Bulls.

[Max Kellerman]

Ah, okay.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. But it is my hometown team. I would say to them, you cannot take the Raptors lightly.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Don't take the Raptors lightly. This is a trap series for the cast because going in. And this goes back to the Cavs. Raptors, they have history, these two. These two teams, they have history.

[Max Kellerman]

But I know someone who thought it was a good idea for Ingram to go to the Raptors, and me too. I think he told in fact the Raptors front office, they should make that trade.

[Rich Paul]

I know that guy, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought it was a good trade. And have you seen to work out for him? Yeah, he's playing well.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

The Cavs could lose this series.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree.

[Rich Paul]

They could lose this series. They have to really go into this series with the mindset of, we got to beat these guys. They're not going to give you the series. And again, when you talk about having the ability to switch Ingram, Barnes, those. Then you. Emmanuel Quickley has not been playing, but he's now back in the lineup. They have a very underrated defensive guard in Jamal Shed that played the University of Houston. I mean, you got Podo who.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep. Pel. Yeah. Even though there's no R, but somehow it's Pearl.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Yeah. But this is.

[Max Kellerman]

This is that just. Then I can't do it with the Easter. You know what I like Rich. In boxing, you have a lot of Japanese names. Japanese names, totally phonetic, Eastern European names. I can't do it.

[Rich Paul]

I can't do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Letters appear out of nowhere that aren't even there. I can't do it.

[Rich Paul]

Then I think. And then RJ Barrett. Look, this is not going to be an easy series for the Cavs, at least I don't think. But at the same time, the Cavaliers are loaded.

[Max Kellerman]

Who would you rather have among the top picks in that draft right now? Zion Ja or RJ Barrett?

[Rich Paul]

Garland.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Although he's been hurt a lot, dude, that's why.

[Rich Paul]

But he's had, he's, he's. In all seriousness, Garland has probably been the best.

[Max Kellerman]

He has been the best pro overall, the best pro. But he's only giving you 60 games a year.

[Rich Paul]

That's not true.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, he's, he's on average, he might even.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he probably. He's had some. I mean, look the eye in Toronto that year and didn't get the jaw in Boston. That's things you can't, you know. But yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter MVPs always make the game more exciting. You just get such a thrill watching players like Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor, that's my favorite of all time, dominate the field. And no matter how much time passes, it's fun to look back on everything they did and accomplished. There's a reason we continue to remember their names among the hundreds and thousands of other football players. You probably want your own Jerry Rice or Jim Brown for your team, too, right? The trick is to find them. It can take days, months to sort through all the resumes and find that perfect fit for your business. Unless you use ZipRecruiter, it's like your own private scouting department. You can even try it [e-mail] GameOver along with its smart matching tech, ZipRecruiter has a new feature to help connect you immediately with qualified candidates who are interested in your role. And they can tell you in their own words about why they're interested, which can tell you a lot more about them them as a person. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ziprecruiter this episode is brought

[Rich Paul]

to you by taxact taxes. Trust me, they sound far more complex than they actually are. And it's all thanks to TaxAct. They make it easy to do taxes online, offering step by step guidance so you can finish your taxes ahead of the April 15 deadline and get your maximum refund guaranteed. If you get stuck, just add expert assist. Get unlimited help from a credentialed US based tax expert. Visit taxact.com to learn more.

[Max Kellerman]

Who do you think is the most dangerous play in team? Which team?

[Rich Paul]

The Trail Blazers, man.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean they've been playing well.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Quite naturally you would say the Clippers because of Kawhi. But I'm not. I'm really not looking at them as a playing team. They got off to such a bad start. And by the way, gotta give T. Lewis props, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

That team was 6 and 23.

[Max Kellerman]

That is the kind of situation where most coaches in history, that team is done the way they started the bad vibes around the team. Remember I said Pablo Torre's like Scooby Doo? Yeah, right. Like we would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids. Right? No one was. Everyone was minding their business. All of a sudden they uncover all this stuff. They take the mask off and everyone looks like they're going to jail. But like from that, like every scandal and bad start old team, they're terrible. They're upside down. They're losing twice as much as they're winning to this. That's an incredible job.

[Rich Paul]

By the time one game above created

[Max Kellerman]

a really good starting center.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. No, I. Look that. That turnaround is probably one of the best coaching exhibits we've seen a long time. And what? And it's not again, it's not like he's sitting there with this unbelievable roster.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

No offense, but it's not like he's. He's really getting the best out of everything. You know, he's. He's really coaching his ass off, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Kawhi, you always worry about the health, but. Yeah, but Kawhi was healthy this year level player.

[Rich Paul]

So I don't consider the Clippers because if they got off to a better start, they would probably be in the top six.

[Max Kellerman]

They are a playing team.

[Rich Paul]

They are a playing team. I would say. Okay, so in that case, I would say somewhere between the Clippers and the Blazers. And the Blazers seem to be a very bad matchup for the Clippers and so they don't have to play each other.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's probably right. But let me tell you why I'm thinking of Philly, because I think we have. Because Embiid's not as usual. He's not available. Right. At least not for a while. So probably it won't be Philly. If Embiid was available, it'd be different. The thing about Embiid, which is crazy to me, is, like, we think of the greatest what ifs in basketball history, usually as it relates to acute injury. I mean, first of all, like someone like Len Bias, and that's a tragic situation.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But we think about guys like Grant Hill.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Derrick Rose, because they reached a certain level at such a young age and they were so great. They had legitimate greatness at such a young age. And then all of a sudden, it was over. When I was a kid, Bernard King, right. Bill Walton kind of reached the mountaintop, won an mvp, won the championship. But. And Embiid most resembles Bill Walton in this way. Joel Embiid.

[Rich Paul]

But Bill Walton didn't have Embiid skill set.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but. But Walton was, in his day, like a super. Walton looked like he was on his way to Kareem Shaq, et cetera. People don't know now because he. They remember him as a commentator and stuff. Yeah, but he was. They won a championship. He was.

[Rich Paul]

He.

[Max Kellerman]

But they wanted champions. Listen, in college, he wasn't as dominant as Kareem, but he was the next thing to it. Right. Which is why UCLA was so good for so long with Wooden, yet Lou Alcindor, followed by Bill Walton. But then in the pros, when he was healthy, he was the best player in the world other than Kareem, and they won the championship and he was the MVP even though he played like 16 games. Right. So in terms of all time, what ifs, Rich. I think Embiid doesn't have the acute injury that makes you think of him that way. Like, it wasn't like, he's going along, going along, and then it's over. Like Grant Hill or Derrick Rose or it's permanently changed, like Bernard King. But it's one thing after another. It's the knee, it's the back, it's the face. It's the, you know, he has a chronic problem. It's so many different injuries that he is in the running for. Biggest what if in the history of basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Hmm. I never thought about that.

[Max Kellerman]

Think about offensive efficiency, defensive presence. He comes bounce away on the Kawhi shot from really winning the championship. Because they're going to beat the Warriors. If the warriors don't have KD that year, most likely.

[Rich Paul]

It's a sad thing to see because I think if healthy all the time, right, he would have had an opportunity to probably go down as the greatest big man ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he has.

[Rich Paul]

He.

[Max Kellerman]

He could be in that conversation. Yeah, but the injuries have just taken it out.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's been tough.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's your regular season mvp?

[Rich Paul]

Who's your regular season mvp?

[Max Kellerman]

I. I. My regular season MVP is this. It's the biggest bullshit award in the world. You have no idea who the MVP of the NBA is till the end of the playoffs. And I refuse to.

[Rich Paul]

Who's your most outstanding player of the year? How about that?

[Max Kellerman]

I will tell you when the playoffs are over. I. I will have. Oh, so it's.

[Rich Paul]

Of the regular season.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like, okay, you want me to give you the preseason award? Regular season's a preseason preseason award. Probably Jokic. I would have gone Wemby, but Wemby has missed a few too many games.

[Rich Paul]

He didn't miss it. He didn't miss enough games where he's ineligible. So he's eligible. He's eligible. Wemby's eligible for every award.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, so you can't count.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. You can't count.

[Max Kellerman]

I know Shea was more durable. Jokic was more. But, like, right. If you're going to say. If you're going to hold me to the ridiculous rules of this absurd award, I would give it to Wembley.

[Rich Paul]

It's not a ridiculous rule. I'm saying they. The rule is the rule.

[Max Kellerman]

Why is there a regular season mvp? Whose is yours? Who's. Who's yours?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I think you can make an argument for Wimby, you can make an argument for, and you can make an argument for Jokic.

[Max Kellerman]

You have the award. You must choose one. Or you can give it a tie. It's up to you.

[Rich Paul]

I'll probably do Ko. Wemby and Shay.

[Max Kellerman]

Wemby and Shay, Yeah. Over Jokic, who's going to lead the league this year? I don't know what he's averaging. 25, 26, 28 points, whatever. But, you know, he could average whatever he wanted if you. Right. He's going to lead the league in rebounds and assists. Rich, he's a center.

[Rich Paul]

I think I know. Look, that's why I just said you told me that. I mean, you want me to give a try? Sure. Okay. We'll give it to all three. They could take a little, you know, cut it up into three pieces and give them each one.

[Max Kellerman]

I see. A get rich quick here is on the Masters.

[Rich Paul]

It is, but really, it's on appreciation.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

It's really on appreciation. And I've been. Appreciation, I think, is a very healthy thing to have.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Really is. But the reason why I'm so appreciative is really because of the Masters. And, you know, I was invited by. By Delta and Ed Bastian, the CEO of Delta, who was just a. Just great. He and his team. Annika, to what's up with Delta360 and McCait and. And.

[Max Kellerman]

Come on.

[Rich Paul]

Delta360 on the show and Bob, Delta360. We should do Delta360.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we should. Yeah. Actually talk to Bob. When the game is over, you fly home with Delta.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, that. Yes, that is a home run. Yes. Yes. We got to get that going. But anyway, so he has a great team. Like I said, Annika, imitate Bob. Even the security Mark and his team, they treated us. I took my man Glenn March, and Farrah went. And we took David Creech as well, because they're big golf people. And the way it is, you go, Max and I. I mean, they forget the red carpet. This carpet is like. I don't even know what color it is. It's crimson. For the sake of Delta, I guess it would be the. The navy blue, red and white carpet. But. But nevertheless, they put you up. I got to see Mike Tirico interview Gary Player and Jack Nicklaus. If you ever heard Gary Player speak, he's true player. True player. And, you know, they're talking about golf. They're talking about just how far along the game has come. They're talking about just insights on. On. On the game and things, which. Which is. Was pretty great. And Tarico's great, right? He knows exactly when to just let them do their thing after he gets them rolling a little bit. They brought in John and Vinnie's, which. John and Vinnie was acting actually there. Got to see them and Helen, who's with John and Vinnies, and their team was fantastic. You know, they set the golf simulators. So I'm on the simulator. I have to apologize. I was on the simulator for. For six hours, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, I'm on the sim. I closed the place down, you know, and then when we talk about a Coachella for CEOs, it's. He invites all CEOs from different. You know, my guy George from. From Wheels Up, Steve. Just a lot of people.

[Max Kellerman]

You get them all there.

[Rich Paul]

Not by train. Max.

[Max Kellerman]

I thought it was funny.

[Rich Paul]

So. So. So, you know, I have a profound appreciation. Number one, you don't have to continue to be invited somewhere regardless of what you think your stature or status is.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You know, that doesn't grant you the entitlement to be invited somewhere. So I'm extremely appreciative of that. And then they go just the extra mile. I mean, from the Lady Ann, who. You have a house at the actual Masters, and she's dealt with her, too, who doesn't know that they're greeting people. And so.

[Max Kellerman]

And so is it overlooking a golf course?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but there's. But. And aside from that, you know, there's several other places they put everybody up at. And then. So we're leaving, right? And we're flying out of Augusta. And when you go to the Masters, they have. You can only buy the Masters gear there.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So obviously, I went crazy. Of course, we all went crazy. But I'm buying gifts for clients that play golf and things of that nature, and friends that allow me to play golf at their country clubs that I don't belong to.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And so bringing back gifts and there's. You can go to. You can have what they call a Berkman's pass. And the Berkmans pass is like the purple label of the Masters. Right. Stuff there, great food, everything. So you have that. So I got all these bags, and I'm trying to get back, and I don't want to ship. So I'm talking to my guy, Mark, and he's like, don't worry, I got you causes lady at the Augusta airport, Heather. So I get there, I get the number. Call Heather. She's already outside. Her and her team, Lonnie and Randy, just beautiful people. We get into the airport, the airport is packed. You know, Augusta Airport is the size of this room.

[Max Kellerman]

Spoke to you from the airport, right?

[Rich Paul]

It is packed. So they say, you know what.

[Max Kellerman]

What airline were you taking?

[Rich Paul]

Max, if you want to get the show sponsored, go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

Trying to. Trying to hook it up.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just saying we were taking Delta. Yes. Okay, Gotcha. Yeah, I was. I was. I was on Delta one. Of course, I only fly Delta.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. I also would like to only fly

[Rich Paul]

98 of the time.

[Max Kellerman]

What's his name? Bob.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Huh?

[Rich Paul]

Ed. CEO.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Ed. Spell it for me. E, D. Oh, Ed. I thought. Yes. I thought you said Ant. Like, ant man. I was like, what are you talking about? Yes. Yeah. You know, I'd like to also fly Delta exclusively. Yes, go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

So 98% of the time, I fly Delta unless Delta doesn't have the flight going where I'm going. And that's.

[Max Kellerman]

Delta has all the flights. Don't worry about that.

[Rich Paul]

Right? So get there, it's packed. I run into these young ladies. They're going to Boston for a baby shower. I'm messing with them. I'm. I'm. I'm, you know, I'm just having a good time. And everyone's there. Everyone has their master bureau. And that team at Augusta Airport really took care of us so much. So I'm starving, right? And you know, when you're black, everyone's Auntie and anybody older than you, they could be a year older than you. That's Auntie and that's Unc.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay?

[Rich Paul]

So Auntie's in the back, and I walk past her, and I'm like, what's up, Auntie? She's like, what's going on? She's like, you know, and we talking. So she come in. I said, I'm starving. She said, would you like me to get you something to eat? The Southern hospitality is a real thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

She goes and get me a teriyaki. But I'm like, I mean, this is, you know, it's crazy, of course. And so that. So I'm appreciative of that. And now we're taking off, our flights delayed. We're on the Runway for an hour.

[Max Kellerman]

Probably not Delta flight. Probably another.

[Rich Paul]

No, not because of Delta.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Wasn't because of Delta.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

We're on the plane, we're ready to go. We can't go. So they finally get us off. But guess what?

[Max Kellerman]

What's that?

[Rich Paul]

My next flight. Coming home.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

They wait on us, of course. Beautiful.

[Max Kellerman]

That's the way they do it at Delta, which I'm trying to tell you.

[Rich Paul]

Cookies, milk. I mean, there's no. There's no better partner than Delta, for sure. So because of that, I'm extremely appreciative. And the Masters, we. We're on the first hole. I get to see. Get to walk out and see everybody tee off. So the first day we sat at T, number one and get to see everybody tee off, which is insane. Fred Couples is hitting the ball 300 yards at 66 years of age, which is. Which is insane. So just a great, great, great event. And as you can see, I enjoyed myself with the shopping at the Masters, so.

[Max Kellerman]

And Rory McElroy, by the way, back to back, I think people forget that when he won the US Open by a million strokes, whatever it was 11, whatever it was, he was like, Tiger was in a downturn. He was in a tough time at that moment. And Rory, now Tiger, he wasn't quite Tiger, but he was like within a year or two of the age Tiger was when he won the Masters by a million strokes, right? And it was like, can he be the next Tiger Woods? There was a big push in the PGA to kind of make him the guy because. Cause he was a prodigy, right? There hadn't been a prodigy like that since Tiger.

[Rich Paul]

I saw him on the beach at like 3 years old with a golf.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right there. Those pictures around. Yeah. And then, you know, he had his ups and downs, whatever, but he now has a Grand Slam. He has won the Masters two years in a row. He's got six majors and he's in his physical prime. He's like mid-30s. He has a chance now to fulfill that promise, you know. And B, if you look at the all time golf rankings, Jack Nicklaus, the greatest golfer of all time, he has the most major wins plus the most second place finishes.

[Rich Paul]

He was the most scary player.

[Max Kellerman]

But other tournament win, but like just by the record. And then Tiger. Yeah, right. Could he catch Nicklaus? Could he. Not quite, but he came close. And, and then who's in that third slot, right? Does McElroy have a chance to be the third guy? Even if it's three out of three? Does he have a chance? Does he have enough years ahead of him?

[Rich Paul]

He jumped way out. He was up, what I think six or seven. Yeah, six. He jumped way out and then kind

[Max Kellerman]

of limped to the finish. But he still won.

[Rich Paul]

But he didn't even drive the ball. He drove the ball, but he didn't drive the ball. Well, he, he, he. His second shot, he's all. He always had to make something out of nothing. Second shot, which is insane, but he's driving the ball 350 yards now, obviously driving the ball 350 to keep it straight is going to be a challenge for anybody, let alone him. But then yesterday, he driving on 18, he's definitely not out of bounds, but he's not on the green either. And he draws the ball right into the bunker, which pros would rather hit out the bunker because thinking it's just more controllable, I imagine, I guess it sets him up for the win. But if you saw the drive, you was like, damn, it was, you know, pretty bad. But I think McElroy Scheffler was right there, man. And you know, Scheffler didn't have a bogey the entire four days.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think I don't know it, but now I know it. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Third. Oh, third. I'm sorry. Third and fourth round, Right. The only player ever to not have a bogey in the third. You know he played 36 holes of golf without a bogey. You don't know what it is.

[Max Kellerman]

I do. But like, I. But like, you know. Look, the reason I bring it up

[Rich Paul]

is so like you.

[Max Kellerman]

The reason I bring it up about McIlroy is on the one hand, actually, in your mid-30s, maybe you think you don't have enough Runway to win enough majors to be in consideration.

[Rich Paul]

He has enough.

[Max Kellerman]

But in golf, you do because you can age well.

[Rich Paul]

You look like a golfer today.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Do I?

[Rich Paul]

You do. This episode is brought to you by taxact Taxes. Trust me, they sound far more complex than they actually are. And it's all thanks to TaxAct. They make it easy to do taxes online, offering step by step guidance so you can finish your taxes ahead of the April 15 deadline and get your maximum refund guaranteed. If you get stuck, just add expert assist. Get unlimited help from a credentialed US based tax expert. Visit taxact.com to learn more.

[Max Kellerman]

Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck and the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one. Your buddy, your sister. Ones who always show up, they're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it, too. Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup. So Doc Rivers is out as head coach, Right? And we can get back to that in a second.

[Rich Paul]

Did that surprise you?

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I was thinking, Rich. I think that when you were past your prime in any sport, even as a coach, as an athlete, I like to think of what you do after your prime as the gravy years. In other words, it can't diminish what you did, but it can only add to it because everyone knows this really is not you anymore so much, right? But sometimes what you do after your best can affect your legacy because it can seem to illuminate what was and give people new information to contextualize what you did in your prime and see it in a new way. I'll give you an example. Like you could say, has Doc Rivers coached his way out of the hall of Fame? Now, my answer to that is no. But you can legitimately start to ask, is he starting to diminish what he did at his best? The one way Russell Wilson did he play his way out of the hall of Fame. Right. For a time, it looked like Russell Wilson's a Hall of Famer. Great deep ball, and he won a Super bowl. And he was like what the Seattle Seahawks did during his time was like a very kind of diminished version of what Brady was doing with the Patriots, but they were the consistent NFC powerhouse with him. But then he moves on from Seattle. First of all, they bring in Geno Smith and it looks kind of similar. So it looks like it's system. And then Russell Wilson, wherever he goes, it's bad after that. Now he's past his prime. But still, it makes you start to wonder how much of that was Pete Carroll and Seattle and the system and all that and the players around him, and how much of that was Russell Wilson. So in both Doc Rivers and Russell Wilson's case, you can say even though what they do past their best should be gravy years, it could come back to bite them. Roy Jones. Roy Jones, had he retired after he won a heavyweight belt against John Ruiz, would be in the conversation for, it's him or Sugar Ray Robinson, greatest fighter of all time. But he continued to. He went down in weight, had to melt off. 25 pounds of muscle was never the same. And what happened after that had people questioning how great he really was in his prime. Fair or not. Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, right, Like Bill Belichick looked really bad post Tom, like Tom Brady set him up in a sense that he went to a team that was just missing a good quarterback and then they could do something. But he didn't just go to the playoffs. He won the Super Bowl. He won the whole thing. And Belichick never sniffed a playoff win again without Brady. Then you look back and you go, what'd he do with the Browns? What'd he do with the Patriots when Brady wasn't playing? Well, they won 11 games with Matt Castle, but they didn't go to the playoffs. And they'd won 16 games the year before with Brady.

[Rich Paul]

Right?

[Max Kellerman]

Right. So it starts to make Belichick look bad. I bring all this up because Floyd Mayweather signed to fight Manny Pacquiao on Netflix. Now, reportedly, he already got paid some money for doing it, for even entertaining the contract, let alone signing it. Reportedly, he used that contract as to borrow against. The word escapes mute. But to borrow against the contract in order to secure a loan as collateral, to secure a loan. Reportedly, he's pretty far down the line of going through this event. And then he was asked, is it a real fight or an exhibition? And he said it's an exhibition, but in the contract, it says it's a real fight because what is the term? It's not real fight because does it count on your record?

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so part of the term for that part in the contract, is it

[Max Kellerman]

an exhibition or a professional fight?

[Rich Paul]

Okay, gotcha.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. So why is that significant? Because he signed on the dotted line for a real fight. And part of the intrigue of Floyd and Manny. I mean, the first fight was a dud. It wasn't a good fight, wasn't an exciting fight. Anyway.

[Rich Paul]

Did I go to that fight?

[Max Kellerman]

I interviewed Pacquiao. I was on the broadcast team. I interviewed Pacquiao after the. After the fight, some people got mad at me because he said he thought he won. And I said, you thought you won because he clearly hadn't. But the reason to have the rematch is not because of the action it generated. It's because the character is involved in. Part of the intrigue is Floyd is risking a 500 record. Right? Then Floyd, try to walk that back a little bit. He doesn't want this scene as a pro fight because he's afraid of what it does to his legacy if he doesn't get the decision or if he loses somehow. And he's at 49 years old. He's at that age where no matter how good you are, he's older than Pacquiao, actually took less punishment, but is older than Pacquiao. Pacquiao's 46. Floyd's 49. He's right at that age where you don't know if your body's gonna respond like, enough to win.

[Rich Paul]

So that's smarter Floyd then.

[Max Kellerman]

Except that if Manny holds him to the contract, what does Floyd do? He already apparently has taken money based on that contract for the fight. So now comes a second negotiation because obviously both guys need money or they're not fighting. Right. Now comes the part where Pacquiao either holds his feet to the fire or Floyd gets his way and it becomes an exhibition. Which definitely diminishes the product for Netflix. Right? I bring it up because should Floyd lose? Because he's simply just too old now. Even though Pacquiao's old, he's even older. That 500 thing is gone. A lot of this generation that, like, swears by him suddenly says, well, actually, he does have that blemish. Right? It's smart of Floyd on the one hand, if he thinks he's created enough momentum to now the fight has to go forward, even if it's an exhibition. Or maybe that backfires. Because he put his name on the contract and if he loses, he jeopardizes that 500 record.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, I don't know enough about the business, but I don't think people would. They would probably look at that like they looked at MJ's career in Washington. I don't think they would totally hold it against him if he was to lose, but you don't want that on your record.

[Max Kellerman]

So it's just.

[Rich Paul]

It, obviously, I mean, no, 500 is a big deal.

[Max Kellerman]

Why is this fight. Why is it even in this place? You're. I agree with you. Who cares what happens at this point? It doesn't really mean anything, but obviously it means something to him.

[Rich Paul]

Well, give the money back and preserve your. Your legacy. But talk about Milwaukee.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I think the future is very bright in Milwaukee because. Because I think in sports, sometimes you get into this space to where you want to stay stagnant for so long, and, you know, with this idea that every year starts over, we're going to have a chance of winning a championship. Because it's 00. No, I think it's an opportunity to hit the reset button, get younger, start to. Really. Because they built a great foundation at. In Milwaukee. They have a new arena, they have a new practice facility. They have great ownership. They've won a championship. So if this was. If this was your front yard you're digging up, just turn that soil over. Replanting some.

[Max Kellerman]

That would involve trading giants.

[Rich Paul]

Not necessarily. Because let me tell you something, and I said this before, speaking of the lawn, the grass isn't always greener. What? Giannis was born there in Milwaukee as a basketball player. They brought him home from the hospital as a baby right there to the Milwaukee Bucks. He was raised right there. He got every key to every door that exists in the house. Don't be in such a rush to go to the next house where not only do you not have every key, you probably don't really own the master key.

[Max Kellerman]

I might. But here's the flip of that, Rich. If they would have traded him this year and they would have gotten a real haul for him wherever he went, the team would be compromised by the trade because they would have given up assets for Giannis, and some of those assets would be players, good players, really good players. But now he's a year older, his health has been in question. His future in terms of how much more Runway he has as an elite player is in question. The bounty that they get for him will be much smaller, which, from Giannis's point of view is good because it means wherever he goes is a better team.

[Rich Paul]

Not necessarily.

[Max Kellerman]

Why? Because he's going to go someplace that doesn't have to give up as much for him.

[Rich Paul]

No, it don't matter if they have to give up as much. It's about what they have. If you're, if you don't.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but who's going to trade for Giannis? It's going to be a contending team.

[Rich Paul]

Not necessarily who's going to trade for Giannis?

[Max Kellerman]

It's not in contention.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just telling you. Not necessarily. It just depends. You could, you could, you could trade for him, have cap space and look at building a team and putting the

[Max Kellerman]

team together for a plus 30 year old with injury problems. Now.

[Rich Paul]

You could, you could do it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, let's, let's say, fine, let's say not one of those teams. Okay, but a contending team. Yes, Atlanta.

[Rich Paul]

But, but, but here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The, the other side may not, they may not have the assets for that.

[Max Kellerman]

I would think there are some contending teams. I think the price on Giannis is probably four fallen to this point.

[Rich Paul]

Of course it has.

[Max Kellerman]

But, but to the point where more teams could get into it than.

[Rich Paul]

But the expectation still follows. And that's what I'm telling you. You have to be very careful. If there was going to be anything, it should have been two years ago, not last year.

[Max Kellerman]

They waited a little a year too early instead of a year too.

[Rich Paul]

But that always happens. And so in those positions that you sit in and making those decisions, you have to be. The foresight in our league is extremely important. And you can't be scared to move on. You just can't be.

[Max Kellerman]

And now the question in Milwaukee is, does Doc Rivers take a front office position somewhere?

[Rich Paul]

I think Doc has a. You can't deny the basketball mind of Doc Rivers. So for him to be a party of your organization in any capacity, it's not a negative.

[Max Kellerman]

I also think at a certain age, certain coaches like it happened to Belichick, obviously, maybe it's happening to Rivers. It happened to Phil Jackson for another reason. Phil Jackson was attached to a system that seemed to work very well for him, but the league had adjusted and passed that system. Right, but someone like Bill Belichick. How do you talk to a 20 year old when you're 70 something. But the role.

[Rich Paul]

But there's not at a certain point

[Max Kellerman]

the age gap between.

[Rich Paul]

But it's not forward facing though, Max. Which means not. It's internal. You're not even. So what it is. Is if. Just to say Doc is consulting for the Bucs.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, he's living in la.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

He's not living in Milwaukee. His consulting is internal. Hey, we're thinking about this.

[Max Kellerman]

No, what I'm saying is, as a coach, I think. I think maybe. I think maybe his coaching days should end finally, because grandkids.

[Rich Paul]

He's not trying to coach. He's done with that.

[Max Kellerman]

And also, at a certain point, going back to what I was saying, saying about Floyd and Manny, or, you know, legacy, at a certain point, it starts to negatively affect your legacy. Right. If it appears that.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think he's done with the coaching thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That's what he said. He has. He has several grandkids. He wants to enjoy their lives. He's. He's come out and said that. What I'm saying is, in terms of being a part of an organization.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Basketball mind.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Good idea.

[Rich Paul]

That's a good idea. You can't go wrong with that. The future is bright to me in. In Milwaukee because you have an opportunity to really turn over the soil and start to plant some new seeds, starting with a young coach. Here's an opportunity for you to grow with the coach and get some young players in there and really build the thing back up to play. The style of basketball that is not where the game is at, but pretty much where the game is going. Going.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

So. And it's a championship culture there. So they won a championship. So what that does is when you've won, it allows your locker room to patrol on its own. Like, we have a championship mindset here. So you can't come up in this

[Max Kellerman]

locker room if Giannis stays, if Giannis leaves, the attitude. If Giannis leaves, what's. The coach isn't there.

[Rich Paul]

Even if Giannis leaves. Look. Look at San Antonio.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's because pop is the constant.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, but. But again, they don't have a pop.

[Max Kellerman]

And it's all those disciples that are still there, you know, okay, but.

[Rich Paul]

But it's not like the front office isn't changing. And. And there's a lot of people still there. The ownership is. Isn't changing. That's still there. All I'm saying is it gives you an opportunity if you make the right choices going forward, it gives you the opportunity as guys come in, and it polices itself.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Because you're saying, hey, even though we're young, we may be young, but we're not acting young. We're going to still be professionals. We're going to still Build great habits. We're going to still have discipline.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't see the future in Milwaukee that you do. I'm telling you, I think if I'm honest, I want out.

[Rich Paul]

He can want out. But what I'm saying is, from. First of all, it's less money going elsewhere.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Rich Paul]

So. And you're not all this one out max. You're not guaranteed to win a championship.

[Max Kellerman]

No. But you can give it a shot. You give it a shot to play out the rest of your career in a more winning situation.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But as you get older, just like anything in life, as you get older, if you're going somewhere where you don't control things. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

He's not gonna have the same control with another franchise. Do you wanna get to any emails today?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Alec from Los Angeles, what would your Mount Rushmore of NBA players under 6ft be?

[Rich Paul]

Under 6ft?

[Max Kellerman]

Mount Rushmore under 6ft. Here's the question. Is Allen Iverson count. Are we talking about NBA six feet or.

[Rich Paul]

Actually AI is in there.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Because. Right. Okay, so if AI is listed at six, one, but he's really 511.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Damon Stoudemire.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Mighty Mouse. Oh, well, before we get to Damon Stoudemire, Isaiah Thomas.

[Max Kellerman]

The second Isaiah or the first. The first Isaiah Thomas, you're going to count. He's listed at six. You're going to count him under six

[Rich Paul]

to six feet and under.

[Max Kellerman]

How about that? Isaiah. So Isaiah Thomas and Allen Iverson. What about the second Allen Iverson?

[Rich Paul]

Second Isaiah Thomas. Let's hold off there yet.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so those two for sure.

[Rich Paul]

Chris Abdul, Mahmoud, Raouf, Ralph.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, Ralph. Other Isaiah Thomas, Damon Stoudemire.

[Rich Paul]

There's no other Isaiah Thomas. The Isaiah Thomas.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying the other one. I'm saying the three now. I can't. The Isaiah Thomas is in.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

He's on Mount Rushmore. If you're counting him under six feet. Allen Iverson is on.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

So now I'm saying the other Isaiah Thomas is a candidate.

[Rich Paul]

And again, I'm not saying there's no other Thomas. I'm saying the younger Isaiah Thomas because it's.

[Max Kellerman]

My man is a candidate for. Is a candidate for the undersea.

[Rich Paul]

He is a candidate. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

So another candidate's Damon Stoudemire.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he is.

[Max Kellerman]

Is Farm Marbury a candidate?

[Rich Paul]

He's over six feet.

[Max Kellerman]

Over six feet.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Saying if we're counting Iverson and. Right.

[Rich Paul]

You can't count Marbury, you can't count Kyrie Those guys are over six feet.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay?

[Rich Paul]

Steph is over six feet.

[Max Kellerman]

Who am I? Who am I missing?

[Rich Paul]

Spud.

[Max Kellerman]

Spud. Or Muggsy Bogues or Spud?

[Rich Paul]

Web Mugsy

[Max Kellerman]

Robinson.

[Rich Paul]

How tall was Mark Price?

[Max Kellerman]

I think he was.

[Rich Paul]

Speaking of Cleveland, like 6, 2, 6 3. I don't know about that.

[Max Kellerman]

I used to love Mark Price.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you didn't play like him. Mark Price was a bad boy.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he certainly was.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, Mark Price.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but I think someone look up Mark Price's height. I don't think he's. I think he's over, but maybe like we're. Look, Iverson's listed at 6:1. Isaiah 6, 6:1.

[Rich Paul]

That means he's 5.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Any mark Price. You're right. Mark Price is in. Okay, Mark Price is in. Anyone listed six one or under we know is under six.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Mark Price is in.

[Max Kellerman]

You have to be six two listed to be at least six feet. This isn't going to be Price. Allen Iverson, Isaiah Thomas.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

This game we are one spot open.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, for the Mount Rushmore. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So now we got to think of the. Damon Stoudemire was pretty good.

[Rich Paul]

Damon Stoudemire.

[Max Kellerman]

Did he ever make an All Star team?

[Rich Paul]

I think so.

[Max Kellerman]

I think he might probably made at least.

[Rich Paul]

Damon Stoudemire was incredible.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

Like he might be the fourth guy we're missing. How tall is Steve Nash?

[Max Kellerman]

He's probably listed 6, 3, 6 2. What's Steve Nash listed at? 6 3. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so he don't count. He don't count.

[Max Kellerman]

So the other. Isaiah Thomas, Damon Stoudemire.

[Rich Paul]

We're missing somebody that.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, what's his name?

[Rich Paul]

Who?

[Max Kellerman]

He only played with three point shot for a couple years. Real good player. I'd have to look it up. Who are we? The name is just escaping. The name is escaping me. Hold on a second, I'm going to look this one up.

[Rich Paul]

D. Rose. Oh, cp. Chris Paul's a good name.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Chris Paul. Because he's not. There's no way. He's actually. I was going to say Calvin Murphy, but no.

[Rich Paul]

Cp.

[Max Kellerman]

Cp. Okay. Chris Paul, Isaiah Thomas, Allen Iverson, Mark Price. Mark Price. There's our Mount Rushmore. I took a minute.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Rogigilio wants to say it's cool to hear y' all chop it up on hip hop, but if you noticed, you guys rarely or ever mention Kendrick Lamar. Y' all Drake fans or something. Oh, Kendrick. Kendrick Lamar wore the crown for a while.

[Rich Paul]

That's not true.

[Max Kellerman]

Nah, he's right. We don't actually bring up Kendrick as much as some of the others.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we bring up Kendrick right now. He's a beast.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, you always talk about being one of the greatest shooters of all time. Please share some of your shooter wisdom, form, mentality, et cetera.

[Rich Paul]

Have to be born with it.

[Max Kellerman]

Bonus. If you could tell me that that's the opposite of what you're supposed to say. If you can tell me your go to drills, I can already see the demo on the pod.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I would say. You gotta get your hand under the ball, get the elbow out in front, have to shoulder square. Right. It's impossible to miss. Should short, I mean make short. It's impossible. If you're short, you can't make right. So quite naturally you want to really aim at the back of the rim,

[Max Kellerman]

not the front of the rim.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And there's an importance to get enough height on the ball for it to actually go in, but follow through. All those things are important. Rotation of the ball. You should know why you miss. And if you're missing left, missing right, that's just you kind of all over the place. Like my golf shot, which. So I used to lay on the floor as a kid and I would shoot the ball up in the air,

[Max Kellerman]

so come straight back down.

[Rich Paul]

Right. And so then I see a lot of kids, they. They get these layup lines or whatever and. And they're. Or they come into a gym and they don't have a routine and they automatically start from the three point line. You should never start automatically from the three point line. Yeah, I go side of the ball, side of the basket, front of the basket, other side of the basket, take two steps back. You do that all the way to get to free throw line extended all the way out to three point line. So it's developing that routine. You got to get a lot of shots up, but shooting the same shot pretty much every time.

[Max Kellerman]

There you go. That's a pretty comprehensive list from you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, that's it. We're done.

[Rich Paul]

We're done. That's it. All right. Great show.

[Max Kellerman]

Max, Rich, Paul, game over.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, game [e-mail]. i'm excited for Wednesday show. Oh yeah, Wednesday show. We have.

[Max Kellerman]

We have. So there is a documentary series on Peacock called Field General's history of the Black Quarterback.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And you know, self explanatory. But it's a great four part documentary series and you and I are both in a couple episodes.

[Rich Paul]

I've been waiting to binge.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so. And obviously there were all these obstacles in place trying to get black players to switch positions. They had to go to Canada. Famously, Warren Moon.

[Rich Paul]

We saw Lamar sit there for to

[Max Kellerman]

the last pick of the first round. So. So we have Warren Moon, Shaq Harris and Doug Williams.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

As our guests on Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

The thing I like about this, outside of me, I didn't see Shaq Harris play.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But I did see Warren Moon play. And I did see Doug Williams play. I saw Doug Williams win the Super Bowl. Right. But you know what it brings me to Max? My jersey selling days.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Right. I mean, famously that.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yeah. I mean, Warren. I mean, that's why he's here. The Warren Moon jersey. Obviously everyone knows the commerce or maybe you don't.

[Max Kellerman]

So what's the Warren Moon jersey?

[Rich Paul]

The War Moon story for me is I actually had on that jersey. That's what attracted LeBron to talking to me. And he's asking me what type of jerseys that you have. And maybe he was too young to see Warren Moon play, or maybe he was just starting a conversation and it just so happened that prior to him leaving home, he was watching BET and saw the fabulous video and Fab had on the same jersey. So when he saw that, that was the last thing he saw. Then he see me, he's like, oh, that started our conversation relationship. Which is crazy. Right? How.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course.

[Rich Paul]

Just right. Yes. But when I was selling jerseys, I remember being in Miami for Memorial Weekend. This might have been 2002. And the Shaq Harris, the James Harris jersey was fresh off the press. And there was two guys that had it. Me and my man, Big Rube from who was at Mitchell and Ness at the time. And Big Rude was a guy who actually, he actually put the sauce on the jersey game because he would. He would make all the jerseys. And so that. That jersey was fire. And then the Doug Williams, of course, and Warren Moon.

[Max Kellerman]

We're going to get all into all this on Wednesday, so this is going

[Rich Paul]

to be a great show.

[Max Kellerman]

Warren Moon was, you know, great college quarterback, winning college quarterback, couldn't get a job in the NFL as a quarterback, had to go to the cfl, win the championship every year, still set all kinds of records in the NFL. When he got like, if you look at his lifetime stats in the NFL, that's a big full hall of Fame career. But he spent the first, almost like a third or half of his career, or at least prime young years, not even allowed to play quarterback in the NFL.

[Rich Paul]

I know.

[Max Kellerman]

So we got a lot to get

[Rich Paul]

into those games make a Super Bowl.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Of course.

[Rich Paul]

They couldn't get past those Buffalo teams.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? Right.

[Rich Paul]

I watched a game where they were.

[Max Kellerman]

Pretty spiral, though, huh? Yeah. All right, listen, we got a lot to get into on Wednesday.

[Rich Paul]

I'm looking forward to it.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over. Game [e-mail] 21 and over in select states. For Kansas, affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic or visit MDG in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.