NBA Playoffs Midway Through Round 1, and the Impact of Anthony Edwards’s Injury | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Playoffs Midway Through Round 1, and the Impact of Anthony Edwards’s Injury
Date: April 27, 2026 | Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dig into NBA Playoffs action, focusing on key injuries (especially Anthony Edwards), surprising team dynamics, superstar expectations, and broader sports and sneaker culture. The duo blends sharp analysis, storytelling, and candid opinions on basketball’s biggest narratives, from the Western Conference playoffs to the evolution of role players and superstar legacies. The second half delivers insights on football (NFL Draft reactions) and the evolving status of sneaker culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Changing Sneaker Market & Culture

[01:21–09:18]

• Secondary Market Problems:
  Rich Paul laments how the sneaker resale market excludes regular fans:

  • “Used to be the thing to actually get the shoes. The masses were able to get them and a few people missed out. And then it went to the masses not being able to get them… Now you damn near gotta drive to Tim Buck, too. And they’re not going to have it anyway. And if you do get it, it’s going to be three grand.” – Rich Paul [03:13]
  • Max and Rich agree that corporate strategies intentionally “choke supply to have demand go up.” [03:52]

• Cultural Evolution in Sneaker Trends:
  The guys share personal stories on how sneakers’ cultural significance shifted—

  • Max tells a story about fifth grade clamoring for Adidas “shell tops” and the influence of Run DMC and pop culture. [04:58–06:14]
  • Rich highlights New Balance as the first $100 sneaker, noting its executive status and DC roots. [06:42]
  • They discuss the moment Air Jordans broke the $100 barrier for sneakers, changing everything. [06:32]

• Best Role Players as Stars in Their Roles: Transitioning from sneakers to basketball, the duo compares star value and knowing “when to get off the train” in both sneakers and NBA superstars. [08:46–09:18]

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2. NBA Playoffs Roundup

A. Anthony Edwards’s Injury & Its Impact on Wolves/Nuggets Series

[11:28–16:13]

• Edwards’ Injury Analysis:

  • Both express concern over Edwards’ knee injury; Rich, speaking as an agent, says, “Once information goes out... people run with it... The experts, which is most doctors, they can pretty much tell what that looks like...” [11:49]
  • Max: “The knee is not supposed to go this way. When you see the leg go this way...” [12:30]

• Superstitions & Jersey Numbers:

  • Rich notes a trend of Achilles injuries among players wearing #0 (e.g., Halliburton, Tatum, DiVincenzo). [12:55]

• Role Players Who Matter:

  • Shouts out Ayo Dosunmu as an underrated asset: “I thought IO was one of the most underrated pickups at the trade deadline in a long time.” – Rich Paul [14:09]
  • Max describes Ayo as a “star in his role,” comparing him to Caruso, KCP, Josh Hart, Derrick White—“acquirable, reasonably priced, and playoff-impactful guys.” [16:13]
  • Paul: “He fits if you’re young… if you’re trending towards trying to be [a] championship contender…” [14:18]

B. Jokic, the Nuggets, and Superstar Expectations

[17:11–20:47]

• Max is blunt: “Jokic is having a bad series. When people say, oh, he’s the greatest offensive player—I’m so sick of comparisons to MJ… in his career, MJ never had a bad playoff series.” [17:11]
• Points out you can “Malone” a superstar (Karl Malone/Moses Malone)—career greats without enough rings, which alters historical standing. [17:11]
• Rich: The recipe for containing Jokic is “height, lateral mobility, and ability to take the initial brunt.” [18:44]
• The Lakers’ 2020 “Godzilla three-headed monster” (Dwight, AD, JaVale) gets referenced as a model for defending Jokic. [19:27–20:24]

C. Denver and Minnesota: Defensive Issues

[21:01–22:26]

• Paul critiques Denver’s depleted perimeter defense, noting absence of Aaron Gordon and Peyton Watson hurts their switching capabilities. [21:12]
• Max: “I never believed in Denver this whole year as being on the Spurs or Thunder’s level because they don’t defend...” [22:08]
• Minnesota as underachievers in the regular season but a “dangerous” playoff team if healthy. [22:26]

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3. Superstar Pressure, Championships & Changing Narratives

[24:44–31:48]

• Do Rings Matter?

  • Max: “It’s too reductive to just make it about championships among the best players ever. No, it’s not... The reason he doesn’t have them is because of this.”
  • Max and Rich debate historical perceptions—for Michael Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, and now Jokic, Harden, and Anthony Edwards.
  • Memorable exchange:
    • Max: “If [Jordan] had never won a ring, then...this ring conversation is never a conversation…” [27:07]
    • Rich: “But if he goes on and never has a ring...” [27:19]
    • Max: “He wouldn’t be called the best player ever.” [27:21]

• Anthony Edwards and “Windows”

  • Max: “He has a lot...and somehow he's escaped high draft pick and somehow he's escaped the pressure of like, could you imagine Anthony Edwards...should have multiple [rings] if you have all that and you are who people think you might be. Multiple, right? He doesn't even have one. And he's had shots." [30:12]
  • Edwards’ injury highlights the unpredictability and brevity of a player’s window.
  • Paul: “The space between All-Star and role player is closer than it’s ever been...” [37:18]

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4. NBA Playoffs & Team-by-Team Analysis

A. Lakers and LeBron

[42:18–48:44]

• Rich is critical but ultimately in awe of LeBron's ability to “galaxy brain” win playoff games:
  • Rich: “I was more impressed with the fact that he lost the ball and had the wherewithal not to grab it... He tapped the ball to Kennard and that is what makes him.” [43:15]
  • Max jokes, “LeBron’s 65 years old playing at this level.” [44:06]
• Fatigue, turnovers, and playoff strategy: “That passiveness says fatigue, you know, and in that case, it's a very slippery slope because you never want to give up a game. Right. But at the same time, you up 3-0…” [45:12]
• Integrating Austin Reaves and the importance of knowing roles. [48:44]

B. Knicks, Pacers, Magic, Pistons

[49:44–54:35]

• Knicks & Pacers rivalry: A "Sliding Doors" moment shaped franchise directions. [50:11]
• Pistons issues:
  • Rich: “They need one guy who can get his own shot...and another guy they can give the ball to and say, score for us. And preferably on the wing...” [53:09]
  • Cade Cunningham is “a franchise player,” but the roster is incomplete.

C. Magic, Orlando, and Regular Season vs. Playoffs

• Magic and Orlando teams “underachieved” regular season but are always dangerous come playoffs. [54:37]
• “The difference between them and us is they actually have to go out and play a game.” – Rich Paul on players’ motivation [55:16]

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5. The Value of Role Players, Analytics, and Team-Building

[55:30–82:31]

• Role Player Evolution:
  • The “regular season vs. playoffs” difference in player impact and team focus.
  • Billy Beane and D'Antoni analogies: inflating stats and "asset inflation" applies across sports. [37:50–39:34]
  • The risk of analytics-first thinking: It led to James Harden not having the ideal complementary team. Rich: “James Harden would have a ring if it wasn’t for analytics.” [80:09]
  • Max: “He shouldn’t lead your team in scoring. He should be the second highest scorer on the team. The best Harden I ever saw was when he...was running point [in Brooklyn].” [81:08]
• Cavs’ Structural Dilemma:
  • Mobley’s ceiling is tied to role opportunity, not just talent.
  • The team now full of “Number Twos” with Mobley, Mitchell, and Harden.
  • “Mobley...looked like the best player on a championship team potentially one day. He doesn't look like that to me at this moment. What's changed?” – Max [76:36]

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6. NFL Draft: Giants & Browns

[56:22–64:40]

• Giants’ Draft:
  • Max: enthusiastic about “biggest, baddest dudes” like Arvell Reese and Colton Hood; believes in their “love [of] football.” [57:37–60:04]
• Browns & Quarterback Debate:
  • Rich: “I'm not too concerned...I think Shador is our quarterback and we have a healthy Deshaun, but I think Shador...” [61:58]
  • The generational difference between Shador Sanders and Deion in terms of playing style and assets: “The one thing God gave Shador that he didn't give Dion was an arm...” [64:17]

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7. Best NBA Player in the World? The Wemby Era

[67:13–73:41]

• Both declare Victor Wembanyama “best player in the world—already.”
  • Max: “Wemby is Olajuwon but taller and shoots better from long range.” [68:02]
  • Rich: “He is...undescribable. I cannot describe what the guy does, how he does it at that—the height that he is.” [69:02]
  • The duo marvels at Wemby as the hybrid of KD and AD “plus a half foot.” [72:21]
• Wemby’s psychological edge—crediting his time with monks for focus and resilience. [72:09]

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8. Audience Questions and Sneaker Market Reflections

[82:41–89:10]

• Best Sixth Man Playoff Games:
  Vinnie Johnson (“The Microwave”) gets Rich’s vote. [83:16]
• NFL Players as Sneaker Icons Today: Rich doubts the possibility, noting the unique timing, charisma, and marketing behind legends like Deion Sanders and Ken Griffey Jr. [84:00–85:44]
• Knicks: Bridges vs. OG Anunoby: Audience asks if OG has overtaken Bridges as the “third best player.” Max: “OG can shoot. OG can defend multiple positions.... [When] the Knicks got OG Anunoby, I thought, oh my God, maybe they are constructing a championship-caliber team.” [88:20]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rich Paul: “The space between All-Star and role player is closer than it’s ever been.” [37:18]
• Max Kellerman: “Jokic is having a bad series. I’m so sick of comparisons to MJ, Rich. In his career, MJ never had a bad playoff series.” [17:11]
• Rich Paul on Wemby: “…He is...undescribable. I cannot describe what the guy does, how he does it at that—the height that he is.” [69:02]
• Max Kellerman on Anthony Edwards’ window: “The injury shows you – oh, you don’t have as much time necessarily as you think in your prime.” [30:14]

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Important Timestamps

• Sneaker Culture & Secondary Market: [01:21–09:18]
• Anthony Edwards Injury, Wolves/Nuggets: [11:28–16:13]
• Jokic/DEN Playoff Standards: [17:11–21:10]
• Role Players & Playoff Impact: [14:13–16:13; 37:18]
• NBA Superstar Critique & Ring Culture: [24:44–31:48]
• LeBron’s Playoff Brilliance & Lakers: [42:18–48:44]
• NFL Draft: Giants/Browns Reaction: [56:22–64:40]
• Wemby as Best in World, Spurs Dynamic: [67:13–73:41]
• Best Sixth Man Playoff Games, Sneaker Culture/Q&A: [82:41–89:10]

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Tone & Style

Conversational, candid, sometimes irreverent but always insightful—Max and Rich mix analytical rigor with locker room storytelling and fan’s passion. Quick-witted banter and accessible analogies make even complex discussions engaging for casual and hardcore fans alike.

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For New Listeners

This episode delivers a masterclass in basketball storytelling, blending real-time analysis with historical context. If you want to understand not just “what’s happening” but “why it matters” in the NBA—plus how sneaker culture and superstar narratives shape the league—this is perfect. The chemistry between Kellerman and Paul shines, particularly when dissecting sports legacies and the hidden nuances of team-building.

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Summary by Segment:

• [00:01:21] – Candid banter, sneaker scarcity
• [11:28] – NBA injury fallout and Playoff role players
• [17:11] – Jokic, superstar standards, legacy
• [24:44] – Legacies: Do rings truly matter?
• [42:18] – LeBron, Lakers, playoff “galaxy brain” moments
• [56:22] – NFL Draft, Giants/Browns breakdown
• [67:13] – Wemby as NBA’s present & future
• [82:41] – Audience Q&A: sixth men, sneaker icons
• [88:20] – OG Anunoby vs Bridges: Knicks debate

Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them. Right? You're gonna do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it [e-mail] gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech, and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Max, what's going on?

[Rich Paul]

No, I will not apologize.

[Max Kellerman]

4.

[Rich Paul]

You can figure it out yourself, but the answer's no. I don't feel bad. I won't feel bad because when you do it to me, I say nothing.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, what did I do? What did you do?

[Rich Paul]

It's okay. You'll figure it out. Let's just start the show. As the show goes on, you will figure it out. And I'm telling you right now, I do not apologize.

[Max Kellerman]

These.

[Rich Paul]

What are those?

[Max Kellerman]

These. I see. You gotta have that special bat phone number to get those.

[Rich Paul]

Well, if you'd answered my call when I was calling you, you thought I was trying to represent you. I wasn't. I was trying to hook you up. So you missed out.

[Max Kellerman]

It's making things up.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's not. Do you have these in your repertoire?

[Max Kellerman]

Never ignored your call. You sent me some. Not those. You sent me some. Some rps.

[Rich Paul]

These are rps. These are the favor. Yours.

[Max Kellerman]

But they don't have the. The thing I like about the. The late. They have the. No, no, I'm talking about. You have the one with the. With the label is. It's an R and a P. Yeah, those are.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because as. As the years keep going, it gets better.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah. You got to use that on everything.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But these, actually. It's okay. I see what you're saying. No problem. Don't worry about it. These are. These are no longer available. And I'm glad I didn't give them to you because you probably would have sold them on one of those premier sites. They were going for big bucks, max.

[Max Kellerman]

Secondary market.

[Rich Paul]

Secondary market. And one thing about it, you got to get your money.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. It's unbelievable how those kicks go on the secondary.

[Rich Paul]

It actually. But it actually. That's what actually. Talking about sneakers before.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The secondary market is actually part of the ruining of the footwear, you know,

[Max Kellerman]

because it prices people out.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And two things happen. One that. But then the other thing is, it used to be the thing to actually be able to get the shoes. The masses were able to get them and a few people missed out. And then it went to the masses not being able to get them. And you have to go on a scavenger hunt every time you want to buy a dope sneaker. That's not how these companies were built. Definitely not Nike, because Nike's whole thing was they controlled the shelf space from a market share perspective and not the big stores in the community. Community stores at the plazas. Like, you can go to the plaza and get the hottest shoe that was coming out right across the street from your house. Now you damn near got to drive to Tim Buck, too. And they're not going to have it anyway. And if you do get it, it's going to be three grand. Like, who wants to pay?

[Max Kellerman]

And then a lot of companies intentionally choke supply to have the demand go up.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But what it did was it. That's basically like taking prime real estate and abandoning. Abandoning the homes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And then you say, you know what? Don't matter. Then another development crew comes in, purchase the homes, purchase the land.

[Max Kellerman]

Got worse in Covid, too. A lot of companies are like, oh, we'll do it all online, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And other companies just were birthed. You know, obviously you had a resurgence from a new balance perspective. But think about all the other companies that came and what happens more importantly, Max, is the mindset of the consumer changes. See, we used to be like, there's no way I would wear that shoe. That shoe looks like an orthopedic shoe. Yeah, that same orthopedic shoe.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, please. My daughter only wears them is in style. Yeah. The one that looks like. Looks like hospital shoes for old men.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. So remember, we talked about trends, and today those same trends that you thought you had to have is no longer there.

[Max Kellerman]

I was telling you before that Jamel Thompson's going on. Jamel from the Mr. Goldstein's class in the fifth grade. P.S. 41. When I was in the fifth grade, I go to my mom. My mother, I'm like, ma, I need a pair of shell tops. Right? She found out they were $50. This is like 1983.

[Rich Paul]

That was like five grand.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. She's like, well, you're not getting $50.

[Rich Paul]

83.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not getting $50 sneakers. I'm like, ma, please, I just need this. You know what I mean?

[Rich Paul]

Was that because of Run dmc?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, probably. That's what.

[Rich Paul]

They couldn't have been premiered at 50.

[Max Kellerman]

The only. There were. There were really four brands you could wear back then in New York. In that day. In that day, it was like Adidas. Pumas, actually were the next one, because when Beat street came out, everyone was wearing Puma.

[Rich Paul]

Big. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Because they must have had a situation with Puma. So leather or especially suede. Well, they were in the 30s, though. But shell tops were 50. So I had to lit. So I had. I. Please call Jamel's mother. She'll tell you, right? She calls. And I didn't even know that. I don't. I didn't remember this story until he told me. She calls his mom. Really? Really. It's. You know. And that's the only reason I got shell tops.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the thing. She had to. Your mom doesn't give a shit about no shell tops. She had to lean on his mom, who had a better understanding of why the kids actually wanted them.

[Max Kellerman]

But when she heard $50 for a pair. For a pair of kicks back then, that was a conversation ender.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. She had to lean on that.

[Max Kellerman]

Now, a couple years later, kicks were going like when Jordans came out, suddenly it's $100 for sneakers. And. But before that, really, it's Jordans that pushed it. New Balances. But then Jordans pushed it over.

[Rich Paul]

Well, people don't believe. May not understand this, but New Balance was actually the first hundred dollars.

[Max Kellerman]

You put me up on that before. I remember them being in the 70s, which was so much money back then.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. It was because they. You know, that was the. That. That was the executive shoe.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Why do you think Steve Jobs actually.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. You only saw rich older people wearing that.

[Rich Paul]

But in DC, they figured it out early and they understood. No, this is the business shoe right here. And. And it went with everything. That's why that gray.

[Max Kellerman]

We had roofs. The roofs were New Balance for kids, basically.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But if you got on rubber underneath and somebody has on a pair of New Balance. And they. And they. You know, back then, they're $160 shoe in the 80s. Yeah, that is. Yeah. Right. And then it went to a whole

[Max Kellerman]

nother level then they knew they were. They were making them for a dollar. It's like. That's how you like that.

[Rich Paul]

Everybody was. Was started to wear the basketball shoe that really cost a lot of money. I remember when this had to be 96 or something. The Chris Webers came out. And the first pair that came out was the White Navy. Had the number. This one. He was in Washington. So it might have been earlier than that. Might have been 94. And they had the number two on the back. Those were. And the air bubble is what made them 160. That's what jumped everything.

[Max Kellerman]

It was only when the ones you wanted was when the air bubble went through the whole shoe. Right. As opposed to when it was just in a part of it. You wanted the air bubble to wrap around the whole shoe.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you wanted the air bubble to be exposed.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

See you.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

All the shoes could have an air bubble.

[Max Kellerman]

You want it exposed around the part

[Rich Paul]

of the exterior was. Was. Was for the air bubble to be shown.

[Max Kellerman]

Glass elevator.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Because that made a thing. And then. And now they. They went too. Air bubble crazy. And then that. Actually, you got to know when to get off that train because. Right. Because it only worked for so long. And then it's like, okay, let's stop.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, it's just like sports. Trade them a year too early instead of a year too late.

[Rich Paul]

We talked about this in sports. You have to know when to jump off the quote, unquote superstar. Especially if. If they. If they're only a superstar on the court. And at some point that's. That's going to fade. If they don't drive other areas of business, then it's even more important to get off of them before everyone else knows you need to get off of them.

[Max Kellerman]

You brought it up. Driving business. Let's get to the show because I have some thoughts on that.

[Rich Paul]

To blow my nose every time I come in here freezing. Like you can. Are they.

[Max Kellerman]

You think this is freezing?

[Rich Paul]

Are they selling like cows next door for like aged beef steaks or something?

[Max Kellerman]

It's always, you think this is freezing. But listen, I've been to your crib. It's too hot. Matter of fact, even your office. We met at your office. It was a sauna. You had the thermostat set to rainforest. It was. It was two. Everyone's sweating in there, Max.

[Rich Paul]

You know, why? My office is hot. So you can get out.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. I think I've heard that before.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want you there too long.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's start.

[Rich Paul]

It's like, it's like, it's like going to my grandmother's bedroom. Yeah, she had it hot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Hot enough for you to forget to ask her for some money. Get out.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's go.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You ready? Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Let's start the show.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA post season is here, and FanDuel knows the only thing better than watching your favorite team is winning along with them. Let's be honest, FanDuel is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during their playoff run. Build a same game parlay or try live betting and jump in after tip off. And don't forget, with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut. We're going to get to the Lakers. There's a lot to talk about with the Lakers, but Jokic and the Nuggets are down 3:1 to the Wolves. But this is a pyrrhic victory. It's a, it's a. They, they won the battle, but they lost the war. The Nugget, like the Wolves might wind up advancing because they're up 3 1, but their season's over.

[Rich Paul]

It's going to take a lot. It's going to take a lot. And hopefully I couldn't watch the replay of Ant. I just, I've seen him do that a thousand times, but that one time

[Max Kellerman]

I just, the way his knee hyperextended. Rich, do you believe, like, what they're saying the injury is? It looks, it looked worse than that to me.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I, I, I don't, you know,

[Max Kellerman]

normally that's not one you want to watch again.

[Rich Paul]

No. And normally you try in that situation. Just speaking from my perspective as an agent in that situation, A lot of times you're trying to make sure that one, you protect the player. Right. Because once information goes out, it gets clipped, people run with it, etc. The experts, which is most doctors, they can pretty much tell what that looks like. Right. And then you have to, it depends if it was swelling, they kind of wait a few days, then do an mri, really get A look, the knee

[Max Kellerman]

is not supposed to go this way. Where. When you see the leg go this way.

[Rich Paul]

I can't. I couldn't rewatch it. I did not rewatch it.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, DiVincenzo. You don't have DiVincenzo. Who's a killer.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have Ant. Who is your guy?

[Rich Paul]

I know. Do you know that you don't have. Well, the four guys that wore number zero all tore their Achilles.

[Max Kellerman]

Don't wear zero.

[Rich Paul]

Did you know that?

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't.

[Rich Paul]

Isn't. How weird that is. Halliburton, Tatum, Agency Zero and DiVincenzo. Oh, I'm talking about just in the recent years. No, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, hold on. Did.

[Rich Paul]

Did lillard.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

DiVincenzo, Tatum, Halliburton. Yeah, yeah, they all wore number zero. I know that doesn't. I mean, it's just a coincidence, but

[Max Kellerman]

it's still a very jinx number.

[Rich Paul]

It's still a very weird, weird thing, but yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, look, the only place in my life I'm superstitious is sports.

[Rich Paul]

I do believe that it's very difficult to beat a team three games in a row. It takes a lot. Just like it takes a lot to beat a team four games in a row. It takes a lot. But what you're saying is, regardless if they get through this series, the next series, it gets tougher as you move on. You can't win without DiVincenzo. And DiVincenzo, you shouted out IO but. Well, remember, I told you I thought that was the. I thought IO was one of the most underrated pickups at the trade deadline in a long time.

[Max Kellerman]

And I thought, he's not going for 43 every night.

[Rich Paul]

No, he's not. But. But, no, that's not why you're getting them. But I thought that he.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm saying, like, what hope do they have now?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but I still. I thought that Ayo was a guy that regardless where you are in your timeline as an organization, he fits on any team. He fits if you're young. He fits if you're trending towards trying to be, you know, championship contender. He fits his style of play, fits what he means inside of a locker room. Fit sacrifices.

[Max Kellerman]

I know the Rich Paul template. Orey, what you're looking for is, first, high IQ is high basketball iq.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Then two other things you would like him to be able to do is shoot and defend, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

He can do both of those things.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Really, the only thing that stops him from being a real star is by NBA standards. He's a normal athlete. He's not like a super duper athlete by NBA standards.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I don't think, I don't look to him to be a star.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no. I'm saying. No, no, no doubt he fit. I agree with you. I'm just saying that's why he's not thought of even more highly.

[Rich Paul]

But you know where he is A star in his role.

[Max Kellerman]

Star in the role.

[Rich Paul]

And when you have what he brings to the table and you are a star in your role because he's competing. He's from Chicago, so you know he's going to compete, he competes and he's extremely coachable. So when you have that to me, I just like Minnesota and shout out to Tim Connolly because Lakers could have had him, right? And I mean Lakers could have had him. Clippers could have had him, Miami could have had him.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like the deal, okay. Makes with Philadelphia where they get McCain. Yeah, same thing.

[Rich Paul]

A lot. Could have had him. Yeah. I'm just saying it's like when you see that guy, he's available because at the time Chicago's basically having, you know, they're getting rid of everybody pretty much. It's like really this guy to have

[Max Kellerman]

a guy who doesn't need the ball, but if you feed them, can give you 40 in a playoff game.

[Rich Paul]

I put him in that guys that you need to win category. Caruso KCP when he was on the Lakers, Josh Hart.

[Max Kellerman]

Basically, when you see that they acquire Derrick White, acquirable guys whose price tags aren't even that high in terms of what you need to trade to get them.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Who have moved teams. So they've been available, some of them more than once. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He just affects the game in so many different ways and it's glaring. I always say this, Max, remember when I always say the regular season is one thing, but the playoffs is another thing. You may see that guy on a Tuesday night in a regular season and be like, ah, he's just okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But in the playoffs when it matters most, that's when he steps up and it's showing. So. But I'm more concerned about Denver than I am Minnesota. I mean, the Minnesota situation has now become very obvious. What do you think is happening from.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, here. Here's the thing about. I'm going to do something that I hope it doesn't sidetrack us. Yokesh is having a bad series. He's having a bad series. I'm so when people say, oh, he's the greatest offensive Player. I'm so sick of comparisons to MJ Rich. In his career, MJ never had a bad playoff series. What about Detroit? You mean when all five guys punched him in the face every time he came into the lane? He didn't even complain, Just got up, dusted himself off and gave him work. You mean when he took the defending champion Pistons seven games and Pippen had a migraine and gave like every time they compare. Jokic is an all time great player, obviously and most players will have bad playoff series. But this is what I mean when I said he could be Maloned. Remember like Karl Malone is the guy who never won a ring even though he was a superstar. Moses Malone was, is even higher on the all time list because he got a ring. But it was one. Right. And if Moses had three or four, people would talk about him as a top 10 player ever instead of top 20. Jokic has MVP after MVP after MVP. He has the most efficient offensive ratings ever. He's, he's, you know, he's, he's leading the league basically in rebounds and assists. You know, like he's, it's, it's a hell of a player. Ridiculous what he's doing. But you can put one guy on him primarily in the playoffs and he hasn't. And that guy, I know Gobert is a great defender, but that dude can speed him up and get him out of rhythm.

[Rich Paul]

Makes it interesting though, Max, because if you go back to the recipe of being successful against the Joker, you have to have the size in terms of height and then you have to have the mobility in terms of being able to lateral. Have a lateral movement that keeps up with him.

[Max Kellerman]

You have to have some twitchies. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And then you also have to have the ability to take the brunt of the initial.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause he's a big guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, so. So not many guys is going to have that combination. And B, when healthy, kind of had it.

[Max Kellerman]

Which is why Jokic had a problem in those matchups.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, Gobert has it. And then when he played against the Lakers in the playoffs, especially in the bubble you had, you had a combination of Dwight, AD and javale.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. AD by himself. Not a great thing. Because he's not, he's not, you know, big enough. But you can work him in with.

[Rich Paul]

Well, when he's coming. When he's coming, help side. See, when you had Dwight guarding him one on one and you got AD coming help side, that's damn near impossible to.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's what I'm saying that you can still, if you're Jokic, you got to figure out a way. But. Because. But that's. The Lakers acquired Dwight and everything like partly for that matchup and have kind of the perfect three guys where they're combined forces. You ever watch Godzilla? Godzilla movies on the weekends. Remember when they had the monster from Planet x with the 3?

[Rich Paul]

I was the biggest Godzilla fan, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

I was. I used to watch Godzilla on the weekends. And the monster from Planet X had three heads and Godzilla had to team up with Rodan and Mothra to take this dude out. That's. I. So you get that if the Lakers have to throw three guys at Jokic, you get that.

[Rich Paul]

But they didn't know they were going to have to do that when they got Dwight. They was just getting the best, but they did it. That's big. They thought was on the market, but they did it.

[Max Kellerman]

So like if you want to excuse a series from Jokic where he wasn't like MVP level player, you get that. But primarily Minnesota's throwing one guy at him right now and like that's who's doing the brunt of the work.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but I don't think it's. I agree. He's not having a series that we are known for, that he's known to have. But that. Their issue is on the defensive end. Their issue is.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I've been saying all year.

[Rich Paul]

They're missing two perimeter wings that are super duper athletic and could really add to their flexibility as it pertains to defensive schemes and switching, which also helps them get out and transition, have more fast break points, et cetera. Between Aaron Gordon, who obviously is injured, he went to the back of the right.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean he's. He came in and he went out.

[Rich Paul]

And Peyton Watson, who hasn't played in the playoffs. That's a lot. You're talking about two guys. That's six, nine and even.

[Max Kellerman]

They are not exactly who you're talking about defensively either.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, no. But they are. They are. They are what balances out the defensive deficiencies.

[Max Kellerman]

Because. Because on the offensive side, yes, they.

[Rich Paul]

They kind of. They kind of balance things out. Because without those two guys then who are you really hanging a hat on to guard like that? I mean, Brown can guard.

[Max Kellerman]

I never, I never believed in Denver this whole year as being on the spurs or Thunders level because they don't defend the sp.

[Rich Paul]

No. We always say they were right up under him.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. But. But I did not think that. I now know Minnesota. They've gone back and forth through these

[Rich Paul]

last seven Years always been a good matchup.

[Max Kellerman]

I did not think Minnesota the last three years would be up three games to one.

[Rich Paul]

Minnesota is one of them teams though, who actually, if you, if you're, if you're really evaluating it correctly, they under underachieved during the regular season. Yeah, they, they did not, they did not have the season that you would expect.

[Max Kellerman]

They're a conference finals team several time

[Rich Paul]

in recent years come to playoffs if healthy. When a team starts to get their, their, their bearings just like, just like Orlando, you don't want to play them because obviously they have a closer and ant.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, now you do.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yeah, now I'm saying prior to this you didn't want to play them because of. If you look at their roster, you look at the makeup, they can beat anybody.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep. You know, well, okay, this gets to the. Before I get. I have a 5 minute max on this, but before I get to the next thing, what do you think of Joker end of the game, Jaden McDaniels go.

[Rich Paul]

You know, that's just frustration.

[Max Kellerman]

It's unwritten rules and everything. But Joker gets into it over that kind of stuff a lot. And as has been highlighted, he does this thing where he grabs the ball out of people's hands. Like he, he's, he does. I don't mind that, but he's doing these little things to get. Like if you're antagonizing things. Yeah. Like if you're going to enforce unwritten rules on the one hand, then how are you going to do these little, these little things on the other hand to get under people's skin? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like either, either you, you play a certain way or. But he's kind of selective.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I don't mind the antagonizing. I think you need that in games. But it was just, that was a frustration situation at the end of the game. Yeah, I thought, yeah, yeah, he's getting.

[Max Kellerman]

And this is why, this is why I say when people talk about. It's too reductive to just make it about championships among the best players ever. No, it's not. No, it's not. If he's sitting on one at the end of his career, you can't say he's a top 10 or if Jokic had 2, 3, 4 chips by the end of his career, most people say that's a top 10 player. But the reason he doesn't have them is because of this. That's the reason if he were better at the ball because the fact that you can Put one defender on him sometimes if he's special enough and get him so frustrated he has a bad series because when he hasn't had many of those, max, but he's had enough that they haven't. It's not. He, he's. It's not that it's a bad series. It's that to me, you have to minimum be your normal self in the.

[Rich Paul]

Why do you think the expectation is

[Max Kellerman]

you don't have to rise, but you gotta be your normal self.

[Rich Paul]

But why do you think the expectation isn't there for guys like a Jokic and others as it was for others?

[Max Kellerman]

I think.

[Rich Paul]

No, not, not well, I think it's not a situation where it's like if you don't win a championship, you under.

[Max Kellerman]

Because he came out of nowhere. You know, he's a second round pick and he gradually got so good. All of a sudden we turned around and we were like, so you think

[Rich Paul]

that's only for guys that come in as a number one pick?

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe not number one, but come in with a lot of hype or have a crazy rookie year, you know, or, you know, in LeBron's case, he's the next thing. MJ went third overall. But his rookie year.

[Rich Paul]

But he didn't have the expectation to win. Who mj?

[Max Kellerman]

He did. Yeah. As soon as he got a single other all Star, he. He basically never didn't win the championship again.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I'm coming in. He did not have. He did not have the expectation where Michael Jordan had to win. He was, he was, he was granted the best player ever. Without him. Without ring.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, no, no. Living through that era.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Actually the old timers were all arguing. You can't even talk about MJ with these other dudes until he wins championships. And that style's never going to win championships. This and that. And that year he averaged 30. Basically from the time he came back from injury and gave the Celtics 63. The very next season, he averaged 37. It was pretty obvious he was easily the greatest player of all time right there. He would like that. That MJ was already better than Kareem Magic Bird ever was. And you know who said it right away?

[Rich Paul]

Bird. Bird.

[Max Kellerman]

Bird was like, yeah, that dude is different. But the old timers were correctly pointing out, if this dude winds up with no chips, don't compare him to Bill Russell. They weren't wrong about that. You got to figure out how to win.

[Rich Paul]

But see, that shifted things back and forth because you went from individual style of play, which was off the charts. And nobody better the way it looked, et cetera. And rings didn't matter because he didn't have one. And then they did though.

[Max Kellerman]

He didn't have one. That was the argument against him. He doesn't know how to play teams.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is, look who he's playing with. But they were still. He was still granted best player. It was on the front of a magazine cover. Best player ever, question mark. He did not have a ring at that particular moment.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So if, if he goes on and never have a ring, then he would. What I'm saying is this ring conversation is never a conversation because it's.

[Max Kellerman]

He wouldn't be called the best player ever at this point.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know about that.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, like the look, look for even from the previous era, Wilt, all the measurables, all the counting numbers, all that stuff will crushed everybody ever.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but it didn't look as good as that.

[Max Kellerman]

And he usually lost the greatest player argument to Kareem and Bill Russell because he was. And he had two rings, but it was only two. And Kareem wound up with six and Bill Russell had 11.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that's when. But where Mike changed the game. It wasn't just about winning a ring. It was how it looked.

[Max Kellerman]

Looked. Well, I mean, I think sometimes a guy comes along and you could see how great he is and you're like, okay, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

Just how it looks.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, no doubt.

[Rich Paul]

You know, it's like we could all have on nice things.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But how it lays on you makes a big difference.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. There would be people who were like,

[Rich Paul]

you can wear double breasted, this person can wear double breasted. But how it looks on you versus him could make all the difference in the world.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, there would be people if Jordan never won a ring. There wouldn't be a lot of them, but there would be people who were like, look, I know what I saw. That's the best I ever saw. Exactly. And people like me would be like, then where are the chips? Right. But okay, this leads me to the five minute max. Anthony Edwards. And it's funny, cause remember I promised this on Friday. I was like, I'm gonna get to. I have a five minute max. I'll do on Anthony Edwards on Monday. And then this horrible, like, I hope it's what they're saying. And he's only out five or six weeks. Because when I see a guy's leg bend the wrong way, the knee go that way. Like, you know, you Ever slam a door so hard it goes past the frame?

[Rich Paul]

No, but I've seen it done.

[Max Kellerman]

I have. And that's like, oh, that's not supposed to happen. Right. That's not just a fix where you pull it back. Like now you've. You've broken something. So I hope that's not the case. It looks to me like it might be before that happened. Rich. I'm looking at the T Wolves like, hold on a second. Somehow Anthony Edwards has escaped the pressure to win a chip. That's a guy who should have a lot of pressure to win a chip. Ant Edwards, because he has all the ability. He's on a team that's capable in the regular season. Right. And capable even the playoffs. The advance. He's got a great matchup for the most unstoppable, apparently offensive player in the game and. And one of the most unstoppable. So they say in Jokic of all time. Got a great match. You're not going to do better than what they have on Jokic. DiVincenzo also got hurt, but Divincenzo is the kind of dude that a guy like Aunt Edwards has by his side that wins championships that's going to kill you in the clutch. He's a winning piece both ends of the floor. You have. You have a guy that you shouted out that can give you 43 if you need him to. Right? Like another.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, DiVincenzo and IO are two guys that I want on my team if I'm trying to win a championship.

[Max Kellerman]

Like any team ever, any team ever.

[Rich Paul]

Use those guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, 100%. He has a lot, Rich. And somehow he's escaped high draft pick and somehow he's escaped the pressure of like, could you imagine Anthony Edwards with. By the way, should have multiple. If you have all that and you are who people think you might be. Multiple, right. He doesn't even have one. And he's had shot. He's had bites at the apple. Now, the injury changes a lot, but it does put in perspective the idea that, well, it's too early. You got to give him more time. Once a guy's been in the league a handful of years and he's played with other all stars, a defensive player of the year, whatever it is. And he's been to the conference finals a couple time. This injury shows you. Oh, you don't have as much time necessarily as you think in your prime. Like, knock wood. He's still in his prime after this. And it is what they say it is. And he'll Be fine. And he has another, you know, bunch of years as a. In his prime because one of my favorite players to watch. But you gotta like it comes back to my point about being maloned if you're James Harden, Carl maloned if you're, you know, no rings, if you're Jokic, Moses Malone, one ring, great to be compared to those guys, it means you're one of the best players ever. But when you're talking about the upper echelon of players who ever played, I disagree with people about the rings. I think you absolutely count them. And, and Edwards sitting on none right now. He's had chances. He's sitting on none.

[Rich Paul]

But why do you think there hasn't been more conversation around not just him, but around a lot of other guys in that position? There hasn't been. No. It seems like it's the same conversation every year, you know, and it's more trending towards the continuance of trying to tear somebody down who's already won it several times versus focusing on those. And it's not necessarily a folks but just a conversation. The conversation has been the same every year.

[Max Kellerman]

With LeBron, you mean?

[Rich Paul]

Well, it's been focused on him. But I'm saying, and I'm saying with the younger players, like, say what you want about Devin Booker, the man's been to a finals. He did go to get to one, he lost it, but he got there. It's not easy to get back to the finals. What I'm asking you is why haven't there been more of a conversation? Why do you think? Because the media leads it.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that.

[Rich Paul]

Or is people just not interested.

[Max Kellerman]

So the thing about odds, I've talked about this before. There was. There was a famous book called the Madness of Crowds. And James Surowiecki wrote a book, the Wisdom of Crowds. And the idea was that this is why the gambling lines are hard to beat, right? That all of us, none of us is smarter than all of us. Like the person with the highest IQ who's the most educated on a subject, is not smarter than everyone else combined. Who's dumber than that person? The crowd knows more because it's not just public information that we all have about something. We also have our private information, opinion, wisdom that is specific to our experiences in life. That's why it's so hard to beat the line, like an over under or something. Because an odds maker opens a line and then the public bets it one way or another. And by the time that line closes, it reflects the wisdom of everybody so it's when people are like, oh, it's, you know, his over under was 23 and a half and he went for 23 or he went for 24. This is rigged. No, the reason it's so precise is because that line, by the time the line the gambling closes, reflects the wisdom of crowds. So that said, when people put their eyes on LeBron James, they thought he could be the greatest player ever. So he is being compared to the greatest player ever. And he. And if you fall short of that standard, you're going to hear about it. If you look at someone like Jokic, no one ever thought he's gonna be the greatest player ever.

[Rich Paul]

No, he was the 47 pick in the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Standards different from him. And I think when people look at

[Rich Paul]

Anthropomorphism, he's also an international player.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, standards are going to be different. English is not his first language. All that. His last name is hard to pronounce, all this kind of stuff. But if you look at Devin Booker or Ant Edwards, people look at them and go, those are really good players. They don't see Kobe Bryant quite. They see Kobe light. Right. Kobe was held to a ridiculous standard because people saw him and it's like, damn, that dude better win a gang of championships. Played for the Lakers puts more pressure on you. He could have played in Memphis. If he developed into that player, people would be like, you gotta win.

[Rich Paul]

But do you think if Ant was on a different team in a different market, would he have had more pressure to win by now?

[Max Kellerman]

It's a good point. If he was on. If he was playing for the Lakers,

[Rich Paul]

because Minnesota has never won a championship, so there's no real pressure to. It's almost the opposite way. It was the same way with Giannis in Milwaukee, although they had won, but it wasn't. It was like, if he can get this team to win. So I think market has a lot to do with it as well.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but Giannis had more pressure than. Because people looked at Giannis and thought, basically, he's better than Ant. They had higher expectations.

[Rich Paul]

Well, once he had become an mvp, then the expectation came down. Yeah, Ant hasn't gotten there yet. He hasn't won an mvp.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. In other words, as much as I love Ant, he is, if there are A pluses in the league, he's an A. Even if he's a high, he's a

[Rich Paul]

90 on my report card. So I don't mind.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, no, listen, that an A is a great player. He's even, as I said, like An a is a 94 to a 96. He's a 96, but that's not a 99.

[Rich Paul]

Here's my thing, and I've been in this situation before, and if I know. If I knew then what I know now, LeBron would have won a championship his first stint in Cleveland. Because I have a totally different understanding and perspective, perspective and clarity on when you have this type of talent, what you actually need to win. Now, don't get me wrong, nothing guarantees you winning, but to give you your best chance at winning. And I think that we get so caught up into the contracts and things of that nature, which for these guys is, you know, as talented as they are, it's simultaneous that in order to continue that you have to win. And these key moments matter more than anything in terms of. And it's getting harder and harder to actually win because like you always say, the space between

[Max Kellerman]

All Star, All Star

[Rich Paul]

player and the role player is closer than it's ever been. It's no real gap like it used to be. It used to be like you go from starter to like the ninth. The sixth man was like the ninth man on the bench.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right now, I mean, I just saw a dude, Thero, get in the game last night and catching alley oop, fresh off the, off the, off the check in. And it's like, well, wait a minute, this kid hasn't played in 30 games.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you know what Billy Beane used to do? He was up on analytics before a lot of people in baseball. So one of the tricks he would do, and I'll give you an example in basketball of this, in a second, he would. And this was in Moneyball, one of those Michael Lewis books. It must have been Moneyball. But you could see it happening in real life. You didn't need to read about it. If you were following baseball back then, he would get a guy who was a good pitcher. Like, if you have a three ERA, it means you give up a run every three or three and a third ERA, you give up a run every three innings, right? No, that'd be a three ERA would be.

[Rich Paul]

I don't have my TI 83, but

[Max Kellerman]

anyway, that's not considered awesome. But that means if you give up an, on average a run every three innings, you should save most of your one run opportunities. Usually a save is not in a one run opportunity, it's in a two or three run opportunity. So Billy Beane would put a pitcher, a decent pitcher as a closer. Just pitch one inning, don't give up two or three runs and he would rack up 40 saves by the end of the year. He wasn't a great pitcher. He was a competent pitcher, but everyone would see, oh my God, 40 saves and then he would trade that guy for someone who's actually good. Like good young prospect.

[Rich Paul]

That was very smart.

[Max Kellerman]

It's inflation, right? D', Antoni, Why do you really hire d' Antoni back then? You hire d', Antoni, he's going to inflate all your assets. Because if you take especially now in this NBA, the reason Mikhail Bridges, they gave up five firsts for him is because if you get a three and D plus guy in Phoenix, but you give him a starring role in Brooklyn, a lot of guys like this around the league, he might average 22 points. IO is perfect example. What if you sent IO to a really bad team and you made him the primary scoring option? What would he average?

[Rich Paul]

22.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? And then people would think, oh my God, we got to give up five first.

[Rich Paul]

But that can backfire on you, Max. And it did. It backfired on my guy. Who? James Harden. Analytics backfired on James Harden.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, wait, hold it. Let's get to that. But I want. There's things we need to get to first. Okay, I want to get to that. That's. That is interesting. Okay, that is interesting. Don't let me forget to get to this. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. The NBA playoffs are here and everything's on the line. Every possession matters, every bucket swings the game and tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right, all customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits your win hits bigger. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Pay off with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 and over in select states are 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued is non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut.

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[Max Kellerman]

I want to get to something else first. Rich Paul LeBron James has been playing out of his mind in these playoffs. Had the Lakers up 30 on the Rockets. KD did play in one of those games. You could see them both in typical. It really was a good summary of their careers. KD was more unstoppable as a scorer. There was really nothing you could do in the first half of that game. But LeBron's overall play, his galaxy brain took over that game and the Lakers won. And they won the two games that KD didn't play.

[Rich Paul]

But they lost last game they won before the loss was a game they probably should have lost, right?

[Max Kellerman]

But they won it anyway.

[Rich Paul]

But they won it in the fashion they won. It was exciting for NBA fans.

[Max Kellerman]

If you replace LeBron James in that game with most other even stars in the NBA, the Lakers lose that game.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, the most. The thing I was impressed most about though was not the three point shot. I know everyone was impressed with the three tied the game with. I was more impressed with the fact that he lost the ball and had the wherewithal not to grab it to tap it. To Luke Kennard Most people, people born with the brain, that the masses are born with their instincts tell them to grab the ball. He didn't do that. He tapped the ball to Kennard and that is what makes him.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, he's doing that on the offensive glass. You can see it all the time.

[Rich Paul]

I know, but in that moment, Matt.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no doubt.

[Rich Paul]

That's what makes.

[Max Kellerman]

That's. That's Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

Understand it.

[Max Kellerman]

Jokic level iq.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's just one of those. Everyone's impressed with the three. Obviously he had to make the three, but I was more impressed with the.

[Max Kellerman]

But I bring it up because it looked to me and like LeBron's 65 years old playing at this level.

[Rich Paul]

It looked to me, relax, max, the man's 41 years old, okay.

[Max Kellerman]

In basketball years, like dog years. That's like 100. It looked to me like he needed a night off. Like it was like. Even though you're not playing consecutive back to back. He looked tired to me. Game four.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, rightfully so. I mean, I imagine so. Yeah. Look, first of all, it's very hard to beat a team four times in a row, especially Underman. You are you. They're the ones Underman. So it, you know.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. They don't have. They don't have two of their three best players.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's not like they have two of their best three best players. They're Underman also. You're on the road. You know, Luke didn't have the game that he had at home. Shooting wise, they didn't have the game they had. For a three point perspective as a team. Overall, LeBron had eight turnovers. Just really being passive. Yeah. And that, and that passiveness says fatigue.

[Max Kellerman]

He called them pick sixes.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, that. It says fatigue, you know, and in that case it's a very slippery slope because you never want to give up a game. Right. But at the same time, you up 3 0. You knew that the Rockets was going to be able to string it a full game together at some point. I mean, they were clicking on all cylinders. Shepard was clicking, Eason was hitting threes. They got every 50, 50 ball. Sangu really forced his will down in the paint. They decided not to double him. Ayton was having a really good game. He gets thrown out. I didn't think that a dude being ejected and Holiday been. I thought that was. I didn't know what that was about, but I think that was frustration as well. In different capacity because that happened to be the same ref that was who's a really good guy that was called out by Devin Booker.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So you know, there's a lot of things playing right. But. But. But nevertheless, Houston was the better team. They've actually been the better team. The better team.

[Max Kellerman]

Half the time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, most of the time in this series. Half the time. So. So I'm not surprised by the loss. And you would say, naturally, you would say, oh, man, I think you, you know, with no kd, you should come out and you should really try to smash the gas and so on and so forth. But at the same time, these playoffs has been so fickle that fatigue is right. You're gonna have a not so great game as a unit is right. So I.

[Max Kellerman]

And also, the volume of threes that are taken nowadays means that if you have a good shooting night, you could see a team win by 20, lose by 20 the next game, or you could see 20.

[Rich Paul]

By the way, y. I think the Blazers was up, what, 14, 14 in the first quarter, and San Antonio picked the lead really quick.

[Max Kellerman]

We've seen it, by the way. Let's get to that in a second. Yeah, let's hold the Harden and let's hold the Wemby stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So again, I think good game by the Rockets. Lakers did seem fatigue, and they weren't on their best, but they played three really solid games coming back home. You want to end it?

[Max Kellerman]

Do you think some of it is. Look, LeBron has always done this, and maybe I give LeBron extra credit where

[Rich Paul]

I'm just imagining, yeah, you like Father Flanagan when it comes to extra credit,

[Max Kellerman]

but I look like it seems to me he used to do this early in his career. You know, his teams will get off to slow starts because he's figuring out who he can trust. He's trying to bring people up, pump them up, like, get them ready for when he needs them. Even in series, I saw sometimes in the playoffs, I thought LeBron kind of gave that game away because he's planning for this whole season.

[Rich Paul]

He used to do that and can't do that under.

[Max Kellerman]

Man, I'm thinking on the one hand, hey, you got. You're up 3, 0. Put your foot on their neck. On the other hand, I'm looking. He's like, he's 41. Which, by the way, in the NBA, it's not like even being 41 at certain positions in the NFL or major league Baseball, you can't hide. There's no hiding a guy like LeBron in the NBA, it is impossible physically to do what he's doing, but he's doing it. And he's. He's tired.

[Rich Paul]

You know, in a regular season, you would have gave him that game off yesterday.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. He wouldn't even played it.

[Rich Paul]

He wouldn't have played it.

[Max Kellerman]

And so, so he's thinking, all right, we'll close him out back at home. You know, they got this. We'll close them out back at home.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you. Well, you see how the game starts. See if you can get off to a good start. Which they was going back and forth.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And then they kind of took.

[Max Kellerman]

One team had fresher legs than the other.

[Rich Paul]

Fresher legs, too many turnovers, cross court passes, you know, not coming to the ball on passes.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you think Austin reave does?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I think, look, I think if you're the Lakers, you hope he comes back and is ready to play.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I mean, look, your job isn't to.

[Rich Paul]

When a team is undermanned, your job is to keep things afloat.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Your job isn't to, to. To. To get things done without. You're just trying to stay afloat. And, and, and until you can, you know, get a little bit more help to.

[Max Kellerman]

But it's also the way you reintegrate a major piece. Like the Celtics did it. Right. With Tatum. Right. Tatum didn't have to come back and be Tatum right away. He could be versions of himself when they needed him to, versus what happened in Philadelphia with Embiid. Right. Where it's like now everything's different all of a sudden. So you don't want Reeves, which is

[Rich Paul]

going to always be a struggle. Yeah, it's going to be a struggle.

[Max Kellerman]

But Reaves should improve it because Reaves doesn't need to monopolize the ball.

[Rich Paul]

But also, he didn't start his career like that, so he knows how to play that role.

[Max Kellerman]

So I'm not worried about Austin, the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

It's a series, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a series. We knew it was going to be a series. We knew it was going to be a series.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, yes. But now can you go and win again? In the Garden, see if you. The Hawks, can you go and win again? You've already won once. Can you understand what it's like? You know, the crowd's going to be there. Hell, the crowd was in Atlanta. One thing about the Knicks, they make every arena damn near theirs.

[Max Kellerman]

But you know the thing when you, me and Bill and Simmons were texting the other day, he brought up something, I think that's right on the money when he said there was a Sliding Doors moment in that Knicks Pacer series a couple years ago where the Knicks were clearly, I mean, Knicks were playing undermanned and still were basically a match with the Pacers. The Knicks were clearly a better team. Had they been healthy, they would have beaten the Pacers. They didn't. But because they didn't, it's like things went in different directions the following year, fully manned up. The Pacers were just better than the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they were.

[Max Kellerman]

And this year it feels like that really was a sliding doors moment because you think like when they're okay and they're okay now, they should be better than this. The Knicks should be better than this. Well, it's not enough to take nothing away from Atlanta, but they Knicks should have taken steps since two years ago

[Rich Paul]

to get to the fight. I mean, the goal would be to get to the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. So they don't look like that team to me right now.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, well, we'll see. Well, Atlanta is in their way, that's for sure. And they're not, they're not just going,

[Max Kellerman]

they're not rolling away.

[Rich Paul]

They're not going away.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Magic are up to one on the Pistons. I do think the magic of exposed the Pistons. I think the Pistons are short. You said a player and a half.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I mean I've said that all year.

[Max Kellerman]

Again, could use a guy like I.O.

[Rich Paul]

by the way, they need again, going back to my point about James not winning, I know why analytics really failed him in this case. I think sometimes you can be doing so well during the course of a season, you don't want to, you don't want to mess anything up. I don't like that. I think that when you get off to the start that you got off to, you evaluate it and say okay, and it's hard for you to make a mid season trade and still win. But in this case it was glaring what's needed. You have Cade and then you have role players in every other position which are great, great. But that's not going to win a championship.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That's not. Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

You said it at the trade deadline and at that time I was thinking if they make a real move, they could win the championship this year. Like they could be ahead of schedule.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you needed to make that and they didn't. That move they did pick up.

[Max Kellerman]

Who'd they pick up? Shooter they picked up. But it was. It's a marginal move. It's. They needed to make her.

[Rich Paul]

They picked up Herder picked up and they signed Duncan Robinson in the summer.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You got your bigs and Duran and Stewart. But see in Duran's case, as good as he Is he's not a guy you throw the ball to and say, get a bucket. Which is what you need in.

[Max Kellerman]

You need one other guy. They need two things. They need one guy who can get his own shot and create for others. And they need another guy they can give the ball to and say, score for us.

[Rich Paul]

And preferably on the wing. You would like to have that guy. Preferably on the wing.

[Max Kellerman]

Kate is the man, though.

[Rich Paul]

Kate is the man. Cade is. Except this is what I'm saying. I love watching Kate, but this is what I'm saying. You have Cade.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he is. That's when people talk about franchise player. Everyone's not a franchise player just because they're the best player on the franchise. Kate is a franchise player.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he's a franchise player, but he's also a franchise player that, you know, I played like, chess in life. I don't really play, like the board game chess.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But from what I understand, there's some pieces that you can have the flexibility to move around.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Cade is one of those type of pieces. If you have the other things, you can pluck him at the 3.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he can run your point.

[Rich Paul]

2. Yeah, he could be the point. He could be the small ball. 4. That goes into a, you know, rebound and push. And he just gives you so much functionality for a team. So when you have that and their books are right, you know, they have young assets, they have everything. And, you know, look, it's easier said than done. You and I are sitting here talking in front of microphones, but. But the reality of it is I always felt like they were a piece and a half or maybe two pieces away from winning. And now they're in a situation where, you know, they're in Orlando. Orlando is one of those teams where, again, all regular season, they actually underachieved.

[Max Kellerman]

Under underachieved.

[Rich Paul]

But those are the most injuries, too.

[Max Kellerman]

They had to readjust. They had to max.

[Rich Paul]

Those are the most dangerous teams in the playoffs. I'm telling you, in the playoffs, for whatever reason, people's focus, they gain a better focus, things slow down. You're actually playing for something. You never. You never. These people, one thing about athletes, they're still humans. So we think that, like, they're not robots. Like, so just think about how you wake up, your day is like a roller coaster. You may be up, you may be down. It's the same way for them. The difference between them and us is they actually have to go out and play a game.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So in order for a guy to be on all the time, night in and night out. That takes a special kind of person. So during the course of a regular season, a regular season can be very misleading. And that's what's challenging the coaches too.

[Max Kellerman]

And well, the players are just like the fans. Everyone knows a regular season game in the middle of the week. Teams on the road, the reason why don't they care more? Well, why don't you care more? Because it's an 82 game season. Because two thirds of the teams are still playing after the regular season's over. No one's incentivized. They're not incentivized. By the way, the trade off you're making is you're sacrificing the regular season at the altar of the playoffs. NBA have a great playoff season, but it's two months long. That's really the NBA season. So something's got to give. And what gives is the regular season.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well the in season tournament gives us some.

[Max Kellerman]

A little something. Yeah, a little something.

[Rich Paul]

But then you have matchups then guys

[Max Kellerman]

then teams are flat after the in season tournament because they, they had like

[Rich Paul]

really post post all star or post trade deadline.

[Max Kellerman]

So you know, let's hit the NFL draft because both of our teams we got something to talk about before we.

[Rich Paul]

Well, your Giants. Are you satisfied with your Giants? Not satisfied. It's the wrong word. Are you excited about what the Giants did in the draft?

[Max Kellerman]

I am. I wanted Kaden McDonald in the second round.

[Rich Paul]

Another Ohio State guy. You should go to Ohio State.

[Max Kellerman]

No, by the way, it's like when Georgia had that defense. You just wanted everyone on the Georgia defense. Right. You basically want everyone on the Ohio

[Rich Paul]

State Ky. Roseman did it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right, right. He's, you know, you grab. Oh, the middle linebacker is in the third. He's available in the third round. He's the captain of the defense. Let me grab him. Right. So. But McDonald. But, but, and then they got jumped in line because they thought they were going to take McDonald and they lost out on him. But Colton Hood still there. Remember I wanted Mansoor Delane.

[Rich Paul]

You did Colton Hood. Well, you thought Arvel wouldn't be there,

[Max Kellerman]

so you wanted Mansoor who thought Arvell was going to be there at five, right?

[Rich Paul]

Giants.

[Max Kellerman]

So I figured Mansoor and then you grab Caleb Downs and you fixed, you know, 50% of your starting secondary. Is that at an elite level? And they're on rookie deals. Like that's great. But the Giants went for the biggest, baddest dudes. Arvell's there. You Grab him. They got my office or my goa. But whatever it is, he's a beast.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know if it's either one of those names. I know it's big.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Bad.

[Rich Paul]

I know he's a big, big offensive tackle. I was standing next to the guy. I'm like, it's going to take three guys to get past that guy.

[Max Kellerman]

And then when you grab a corner in the second round, who's comparable? I mean, I would have taken Mansour Delaine first, but you don't know who's going to be better. And you get a guy like this in the second round to address your secondary, then they trade it up.

[Rich Paul]

But you know what?

[Max Kellerman]

They get with Colt and got a good receiver.

[Rich Paul]

And I told you there, first of all, he comes from a.

[Max Kellerman]

We're talking Colton Hood now. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

A football. He comes from a family of athletes.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, first of all, clutch sports represents not only Arvell Reese, but Colton Hood.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

They're both Giants now. So I'm very interested in this Colton Hood. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So, you know, and just meet with his brother and his father, and he comes from. They all. They all look like they 25 years old. You know, like the genes is there. They play all sports and he went to Tennessee, you know, sec. That's not.

[Max Kellerman]

That's not real cop.

[Rich Paul]

That's a real competitive conference. And, you know, like the. The. The. When I look at the board, you never know who's on the board. Right. Some guys are higher than others. But what you're getting in him is a pro. Like, he's going to be a guy that can handle the city of New York. Come into a locker room.

[Max Kellerman]

What I want to know is when

[Rich Paul]

Harbaugh takes a guy, I listen, does

[Max Kellerman]

he have potential to be like, I think about the draft way back when with Darrell Reavis and Aaron Ross. Aaron Ross was the second guy taken in the draft. Second corner taken. The Giants got him and Reavis, but Ross is a starting corner revisit superstar.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

So I don't think the difference is between Mansoor Delaine is that big of a difference. I don't think it's that big. But is Colton Hood better than just an average starting corner in the NFL? I think he has a chance to be.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think he has a chance to be, too. I mean, we're not the NFL experts. We have to ask. Just ax hardball.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm so bad at projecting college players into the NFL.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, some guys are obvious to everyone, but you know, if I thought

[Rich Paul]

he played football because of anything besides the fact that he loved football, then I would say, you know, it's a 50, 50 chance. But that guy loves football.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? That's all I need to know.

[Rich Paul]

And so does Arvel.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Like the one thing Jim Harbaugh did a great job in. Is Jim right? Or is it John? John, John, sorry. The one thing John Harbaugh did a great job in, he drafts guys that loves football. And I know Arvel and Colton, those guys love football.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. You guess football players, right.

[Rich Paul]

So they, I mean they could care. Did you see the interview where they asked are available to Bodega? He's like, man, I don't, I don't

[Max Kellerman]

know what a bodega is.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I'm here to play football. Right. You know, but yeah, he needs to

[Max Kellerman]

know about New York. You let me know and I'll.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he just wants to go to. Listen, he just wants to go to a decent pizza spot. Yeah, he's not.

[Max Kellerman]

Joe's on Carmine. If you just want a regular slice of New York pizza, Joe's.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. We'll tell him. Marvel. Joe's on Carmine.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah, we'll go down, down in the Village.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, we'll go, we'll go to a Giants game. How about that?

[Max Kellerman]

All day.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Kayvon's still there. I'm used to the Giants.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

My guy.

[Max Kellerman]

If Kayvon remains there.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think he will.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Or, or because he, if, if you're the Giants, you might be thinking, I mean they're supposed to sign DJ Reader, which I love. Right. Like that's, that'll plug hole in the middle. Maybe they want more help in the interior from Kayvon, but like for Kayvon. But then again, Kayvon had double digit sacks before he got hurt.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean you have a lot of optionality, that's for sure. On the defensive.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh yeah, they're gonna, they have the best front.

[Rich Paul]

Carter Thibodeau, now Reese, now Hood. I mean, and defense still wins games.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Listen. Yeah. Once they plug up the holes in the middle, you know, in terms of nose tackle and all that, they're going to dominate the line of spot.

[Rich Paul]

If the Giants has a. In the next two years. If, if the Giants has a really good defense, they gotta go back to Giants on the side of the helmet. Not that ny. It has to say Giants.

[Max Kellerman]

I like it with the line. So meantime, your Browns draft another quarterback in the sixth round. What are you feeling about that?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not too concerned about that. I think Shador is our quarterback and we have a healthy desean. But, you know, I think Shador.

[Max Kellerman]

So you say, even if Deshaun Watson is healthy, it's Shador for sure. For you.

[Rich Paul]

For me, I'm not Andrew Barry, but for me, why? Because if Shador is the quarterback that we all seen the potential for him to be. I just talked about this. He just adds so many other kids want to come and see him play. He creates an excitement, an excitement throughout the stadium, throughout the sponsorship, throughout the people that's. That's tailgating in the parking lot.

[Max Kellerman]

Like when you talk about a position that affects everyone, that can affect your defense, that gives the whole franchise juice.

[Rich Paul]

He has that charisma. He. By the way, he stayed there all, all offseason long, which shows his seriousness. Even having a new coach coming in. He's there, right? And I imagine, you know, he's comfortable now. He's gotten past all the naysayer stuff that was going on the down of being drafted late when he know in his heart of hearts he should have been drafted higher and he throw it

[Max Kellerman]

down the field accurately in this year's draft.

[Rich Paul]

We know he should have been drafted higher as it pertains to stats and things of that nature. So I just think that he's so intrinsic when it comes to everything you want as a franchise. How is it possible now he. And he can actually play the game? He don't have all those other things that can't. You got to be able to play football.

[Max Kellerman]

How is it possible he's not the fastest guy for this day and age? How is it possible that Deion Sanders son plays quarterback and he's not fast by today's quarterback?

[Rich Paul]

Because God gave Deion mostly everything what you want him to do. Yeah, that's it.

[Max Kellerman]

In one family. God said if I make one guy that fast, he's using up the speed.

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean, that fast? That fast, that shifty, that charismatic. That, that, that. I mean, dual threat. The man played baseball, he wore.

[Max Kellerman]

People can say diamond. Other than Lawrence Taylor, Deion Sanders, best football player ever saw.

[Rich Paul]

But this is what I'm saying. So you expect.

[Max Kellerman]

Should don't at me. Is that what I'm supposed to say?

[Rich Paul]

The one thing God gave Shador that he didn't give Dion was an arm, right? I mean, Shador.

[Max Kellerman]

Deion Sanders had an arm.

[Rich Paul]

Now, wait a minute. I mean, Shadour's like, damn, thank you. You left something out there for me because Dion got everything.

[Max Kellerman]

Everything. Dion got everything.

[Rich Paul]

The. I mean, what.

[Max Kellerman]

What else could and I shall give your. Your son an arm. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Thank you, God.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's a good point. That's the best explanation I've heard. This episode's brought to you by Mc McDonald's. Level up your day with the under $3 menu at McDonald's. A sausage McMuffin for just a dollar fifty. And when it's time for lunch, grab a McDouble. Only $2.50. McValue makes sure you can power up without losing too many coins. A $50 sausage McMuffin or $2.50 McDouble. Now that's a legendary drop. Get even more value with MC value only at McDonald's. I get to do this because I'm doing a McDonald's read. But a bup buh buh. How do I do? Limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. You tell yourself no one wants your college era band tees. But on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll

[Rich Paul]

take care of the rest.

[Max Kellerman]

Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Thunder are up three nothing on the Suns. They're going to sweep. Or a gentleman sweep.

[Rich Paul]

See, I think it's the opposite way when it comes to the thunder going up 3 0. Because they actually have the youth and the experience and the depth to win. You know, and I don't think that. Look, I think that I. I think the Suns, they're fighting, man. I mean, you know, like it's 1 versus 8. This is what would be the norm. Back when I was in the eighth, ninth grade, you kind of knew it was going to be a sweep when Mutombo beat.

[Max Kellerman]

Only difference was it was a five game series back then. So you got.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, five game series. Yeah, but. But there was. When there was an upset, it was really an upset.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Like when Mutumbo was on the ground, he was holding the ball. They beat the Sonics that year, right? That was the Sonics they beat in the first round. Yeah. So that was really an upset. You had to read in the paper. That was really an upset. Now we don't get much as much of that. So I imagine that the Thunder. Go ahead and close it out.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Jokic is struggling against Gobert sga. Is looking great against the Suns. He's very consistent. Sga, who's the best player in the world right now?

[Rich Paul]

Wemby.

[Max Kellerman]

Agreed. That leads me to what I want to say. He comes back from concussion protocol. He erases A.

[Rich Paul]

That's not 41.

[Max Kellerman]

You said 14 first. 14 point deficit. A 17 point first half deficit. Three one series lead. I got to say this about Wemby. The craziest thing about him, he comes back from this. He doesn't have like his greatest game ever. Rich, 27 points. Better than 50% from the field. Perfect from the free throw line. But listen to this. So 2712 and three assists. I think it was seven blocks. And that's not even the end of it. The mind blowers. Four steals.

[Rich Paul]

His shoulder probably had two blocks.

[Max Kellerman]

He's like, that's an Olajuwon stat line. Except now he didn't shoot it great from outside. Last it was. He was one from one of four from three. But he's Olajuwon but taller and shoots better from long range. Like that's seven blocks and four steals.

[Rich Paul]

I know, I know.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, look, Wemby's best player in the world. Wemby is the best player. I've been saying it all season. Wemby's the best player in the world. I love Joker's offense, even though Gobert's giving him problems and he can assists and rebounds. It's just stupid. His IQ is off the charts. I get it. But Wemby is 75 and he is. And where Joker is all time great on one end of the floor and tries to contribute on the other, but with limited success. Wemby is a monster on both ends of the floor.

[Rich Paul]

I think people have a hard time with the word best because here in

[Max Kellerman]

sports we're trying to figure out.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying, because when you use the word best, you would think that someone needs to be more accomplished when you use the word best. So that's the only thing I would say. People would have a hard time when you use the word best. But yes, Wemby is damn good. He is. I mean, he's undescribable. I cannot describe what the guy does, how he does it at that. At the height that he is. But I thought when you asked me the question the other day and it showed yesterday. De' Aaron's play really was the X factor in that game yesterday.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. As you said it was going to be.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And the Aarons. Just the Aarons. The reason, actually, given everything the Spurs Have. If they stay healthy, I think they'll get by.

[Rich Paul]

I thought that was one of his. I thought that was probably the best all around game he. He's had as a spur.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you finish with?

[Rich Paul]

28, 28, 7 and 6. But. But it wasn't because of anything other than his. His approach. I felt like it was. I felt like, you know, when you get traded to a new team and you're a nice guy and it's the type of team they have to. Where there's no. There is a pecking order, but there's not a pecking order. Everyone knows it's Wimby's team.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course.

[Rich Paul]

Right. But Wimby doesn't carry himself like it's my team. De' Aaron doesn't carry himself like, oh, I'm the second guy max player on the team.

[Max Kellerman]

There's no question about who's going to take the last shot.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

They treat each other in the hands of a good player. He'll be the open man. He'll take the last shot.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. They all like each other. They support each other. You see when Kelden won sixth man of the year and again well deserved there, they all showed up with the hats on. Kelton and Wemby had bald heads this year together like they support one another team. Yeah. So sometimes that affects the capabilities of a guy like a de' Aaron who. When he was on the Kings, there was no question he coming down. He may shoot three, four times in a row and get to it because he knew he had to wield the team. And so yesterday I thought was the. One of the first times I've. I've seen since he's been a spur to where he's actually been very assertive and came down and get to a shot and. And things of that nature. And he. And de' Aon's gonna play the right way. He makes the game fun for everybody. You know his. I mean the guy's speed is incredible. But yesterday was a great game.

[Max Kellerman]

Defends, also defends.

[Rich Paul]

Very competitive. But what I. You got two of the most competitive guys. Guards between Holiday and de' Aaron in the series.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, no question.

[Rich Paul]

But the thing I. I noticed about Wimby. Pay attention. I don't know what happened when Wemby went to go see the monks, but I know it's something that's psychological. You ever see where he. When he hits the floor, he. He gets right up.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

He doesn't lay there. He doesn't. He gets right up.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, you go see those monks you might be able to climb straight up a wall.

[Rich Paul]

I think this.

[Max Kellerman]

I used to watch kung fu movies as a kid.

[Rich Paul]

Psychological thing there.

[Max Kellerman]

Spending time with the monks. You do all types of stuff.

[Rich Paul]

It's like a mind over matter type of. Type of situation, which. I like that. I like that.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what, Wemby? You know how I say like Bruce Lee. Yeah. LeBron was like Magic. And MJ had a baby. And that's LeBron. Right. Wemby is like KD and AD and a half a foot. Had a baby. KD plus AD plus a half a foot. That's Wemby. Combine KD and AD and make him

[Rich Paul]

half a foot tall. Had to be in like the lab.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think Manute has anything to do with this.

[Rich Paul]

No height wise.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's why I said half a foot. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, yeah, right.

[Max Kellerman]

AD And AD AD was the first guy. I'm like. He's guarding the. Like. Well, Garnett did it too, but he's guarding the pick and roll. Like he's one guy. How's he doing that?

[Rich Paul]

I mean, to. To be a player where you're saying that he's a hybrid of a KD and an AD is ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

And stretch him out half a foot.

[Rich Paul]

It is K. A.D. and a K.D. is a R.D. ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. If you were just K.D. and A.D. and 7ft tall. He's 7 and a half feet tall.

[Rich Paul]

A.D. and 6, 5.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. You're a star. 7, 5, 7 and a half feet tall.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, it's ridic. But his pierce nose is ridiculous. That's the other.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. Like everyone when they talk.

[Rich Paul]

Come on.

[Max Kellerman]

See, this is why. I mean, like, stop playing everyone. Wemby's best player in basketball. People will say, well, I'm the best at. Well, except for Wemby. You don't even count him in the league because he's better than everybody.

[Rich Paul]

It's crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Speaking of seven footers, Embiid returns to the Sixers. They lose and Embiid scored a lot. But the offense looked different. It was slower, like the backcourt was cooking without him.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I just think it's hard not to play through him when he's there.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, we'll try because it ain't working.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think that just has to be it. That. That has to be adjusted in the summertime. I'm.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I want to do?

[Rich Paul]

Too late to do it.

[Max Kellerman]

We could do this maybe on for Wednesday's show. I want to play fantasy basketball. I Want to know?

[Rich Paul]

I don't play fantasy basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Was there, but would there be a player, for example. Well, this leads. Here's a perfect, like embiid. Who would you pair Embiid with if you're trying to win a championship? If you were healthy. But the Cavs, speaking of someone, you might pair with someone else to win a championship. They look great in game two. In games one and two, they've lost two on the road. What do you think the issue is with them? Why can't, like, you know, no one's won a road game yet. But what's the issue with the Cavs?

[Rich Paul]

I think, first of all, I watched the game yesterday. The Raptors, the league is in a great place. I keep saying this over and over again. The Raptors aren't that far away from being really, really good. Really good. And they're missing the. One thing they are missing is the speed and the shiftiness of quickly. They're missing that.

[Max Kellerman]

They're missing the best player on the team. They're one best player on the team away. No one on the Raptors. No one on the Raptors is good enough to be the best player on a championship.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the thing. When you have Ingram and you have Barnes. Okay. Barrett has. He plays the right way. He plays his. And he's tough. Shed come you know who. Who's now starting. Yep.

[Max Kellerman]

They put together a tough out.

[Rich Paul]

And you know who, who, who played really well? Murray Bowles.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Like, he just gets. He reminds me of Tristan when that extra possessions. He's scrappy. He's everywhere.

[Max Kellerman]

And really starring his role guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. He came through for them yesterday. So the Cavs are in a dog fight. And the one thing about the Cavs that people are going to test is their toughness. They're in a dog fight.

[Max Kellerman]

Do they have the best. See, here's the thing about the Cavs. To me, I look at the Cavs and I think Mobley, like a year and a half ago looked like, oh, my God, he's going to be Tim Duncan. He looked to me like he had a chance, but it looks to me like his development has stalled out. And if this is all he'll ever be, that's a nice player. But that looked to me, Mobley looked to me like the best player on a championship team potentially one day. He doesn't look like that to me at this moment. What's changed?

[Rich Paul]

I think Mobley's development and growth will be determined on a consistent style of play where he's at the at the epicenter. Cause if you remember, like normally a guy of that caliber of talent is in I don't know how many pick and rolls during the course of a game.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

60.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. 50.

[Rich Paul]

A lot. So that leads to opportunity on the offensive end and that leads to production. They don't play that style of play. So yes, he's featured at times, but in this case he's probably third in the pecking order. Donovan's one, James is now two and then Mobley's three.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, they had, they drafted a guard or they had a guard who could play the pick and roll and all that. They had a guy in market, right. Who.

[Rich Paul]

That's when they were.

[Max Kellerman]

Who was a. I thought a fantastic.

[Rich Paul]

They had three seven footers.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And. But also like high IQ guy could really shoot the ball, could shoot. Who could do a lot of stuff. And they trade the size and all that for a little scorer in the backcourt and then they trade their young pick and roll guy for an older guy who can obviously also run the pick and roll, but also is going to like score more. It seems to me like they're worse constructed now in the long run, not just because of age but because of style of play than they were, you know, a couple years ago.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean look, that's, that's, that's a tough one. But you may not be wrong as it pertains to. You may not be wrong, but we never had a chance to really see that. Right. That play out. So it's.

[Max Kellerman]

Did they.

[Rich Paul]

That's one of those statements where I can see, I can see your. Your point there.

[Max Kellerman]

Feels to me like they made the determination that we're in a small market or it's really actually not a small. Small market. It's actually a big market. But. But it's not sports wise. It's not perceived that way.

[Rich Paul]

It's not perceived that even the population.

[Max Kellerman]

3 million people.

[Rich Paul]

No, hell no, it's not 3 million. If there was 3 million people in

[Max Kellerman]

Cleveland, I would still in greater. In that greater area, I think.

[Rich Paul]

So no chance Dean will go. Dean is probably how many people laying down, rolling on the ground population of

[Max Kellerman]

the greater Cleveland area but 600,000. But at any rate, it looks like a weak. We have a dynamic, you know, sports center highlight guy we can bring in here. And they've constructed that kind of team as like Mobley to me looked like he could be the best player on a championship team. Harden and Spider look like they could be the second best player on a championship team.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you're not wrong there. I think on a championship team, they both are.

[Max Kellerman]

Both two twos.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, on a championship team.

[Max Kellerman]

But because. Right, but because they're two twos and their style of play has turned a guy who could have been a one into a two or a three in terms of, well, again, best player in a championship.

[Rich Paul]

You think, you think that's tough? Man, that's. Again, that's a tough one, Max. Because this is. But this is why I say, and I don't want to go too long in this. I, I think analytics failed James Harden.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I'm waiting for.

[Rich Paul]

James Harden would have a ring if it wasn't for analytics.

[Max Kellerman]

I've been trying to lead you there.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just telling it back to it. Why? Because analytics told us that James Harden was the one. Right, Right. And so now you develop this team around that style of play from an analytical perspective. And you never give James what he needs. More than anything is that pick and roll guy that if I have a pick like, could you imagine, just give him, just give him that pick and roll guy and then give him that three and D. Because one thing about James, he's the one guard that, yes, he can shoot it from three, but he is an extraordinary, exceptional passer. So he can make that pocket pass with that big rolling. He could throw the lob. He can see he can hit that guy in a corner.

[Max Kellerman]

He shouldn't lead your team in scoring. He should be the second highest scorer on the team. The best Harden I ever saw was when he, I think easily is when he went to Brooklyn and he. And they took Kyrie off ball. James Harden was running point and whenever they were healthy, no one had a chance. But KD is the best scorer. And then Kyrie and Harden was averaging, whatever it was, 22 points a game and playing a perfect point guard.

[Rich Paul]

I'm telling you, analytics failed James Harden because James Harden probably could have had, if constructed properly, two seasons where he was very close to averaging the triple double.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Very close to averaging the triple double. Especially in his prime. Cause at one point, say what you want, James Harden was right up there with anybody in the league when he was in his prime.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

And we fell in love with half

[Max Kellerman]

a step below the very, very top guys.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, fine. But we fell in love with the three pointer and analytics of what the three meant. And there was a mishaps there because I'm telling you, James Harden on a championship, if you gave him the right guy and this is the perfect guy to play fantasy basketball with and I have my guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so let's do that on Wednesday. Yes. I have your guy play fantasy basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Who do you pair James Harden with to win?

[Rich Paul]

And I guarantee you he would have won a championship.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, let's do. Let's do some emails by now. Hi folks. Love your pod. What would your top five all time playoff games by a sixth man be?

[Rich Paul]

I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

I've got to remember the top. Top. I'm not. Oh yeah. This wasn't supposed to be in here.

[Rich Paul]

Wait a minute. Top five.

[Max Kellerman]

I saw this one. I was like, no.

[Rich Paul]

By a six man.

[Max Kellerman]

Because we got it and don't. No. Oh, and he says you can only choose a max of two genobi.

[Rich Paul]

I have. I have one.

[Max Kellerman]

Go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

I have one.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're going to have a K. The kcp. No, no. Junior. A junior game.

[Rich Paul]

No, Junior wasn't a six man. Junior was a starter.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, yeah, he was on that team. He was.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he was a starter on the Cavs team. This is going to take you back.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, Max, give me one. We're not going to five. We'll do one.

[Rich Paul]

The microwave. Vinnie Johnson.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, but which one? But that. Of course you can go to Vinnie Johnson, but he wants specific.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we're not giving him what he wants. We're giving him. This is it. It's Vinnie Johnson.

[Max Kellerman]

That was a non from San Francisco. All right, high. Game over team. Thanks for taking the question. My question is for Rich as he mentions the sneaker culture in the NBA. But do you think it's possible. This is a good one, Rich, that an athlete in the NFL could get his own sneaker and be successful similar to prime time with the diamond turfs. Is there a guy in the NFL who could be have Deion Sanders level success who's a two sport athlete?

[Rich Paul]

No, not today. Not today. And the reason, the reason being is because the reason being Lamar Jackson. Lamar Jackson would have been what Michael Vick was to the culture from a shoe perspective. But I don't know who he signed with from a shoe perspective. There's. There's several things that needs to happen for this to actually matter. You got to remember when Deion was the guy and they come diamond turf with Deion. That was the beginning of the signature shoe for athletes. And also the sports marketing spin was one in which Nike invested heavily. And in Deion's case, yes, he wore a helmet. He played for the Falcons. He had the cachet, he had the charisma. But he also had the awareness. People knew Deion.

[Max Kellerman]

People came to the Dion also played baseball. He was in the playoffs every year. He. He tore it up in the playoffs. There was no helmet.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but. But his.

[Max Kellerman]

He let off for.

[Rich Paul]

For his popularity was 75% NFL, 25% MLB.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but. But together, the sum is greater than the whole, is greater than the sum of its.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, there's no question about it. But he also had the marketing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Behind him. See, people think marketing is like, when I get a deal. That's not marketing. That's not marketing. Marketing is storytelling. And Nike at that time was telling the best stories with guys like Deion. Think about it. In baseball, what other. What baseball player you know has a sneaker to the level of Ken Griffey Jr.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

They don't exist.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

And you. By the way, you want. If you had the Griffeys on and somebody had the Jordans on, they couldn't talk about you.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

They couldn't talk about none of these Griffeys. They couldn't say anything to me.

[Max Kellerman]

And every night on Sports Centers making a catch over the fence.

[Rich Paul]

And they were so prominent that they staggered the release. So you had to buy the Griffey, the Dion and the Jordan. You bought all of them? At least I did. Yeah. So no. The answer is no.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. First off, I love the show so much. I just think it's insane how OG Surpassed Bridges as the third best player on the team. OG Was brought in for his defense and minor scoring. Now OJ Is scoring more than Cats some nights. OJ Is still an amazing defender, too. When you look at how much more the Knicks gave up for Bridges, it's just a crazy disparity.

[Rich Paul]

Sincerely.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, look, I like Bridges. I think Bridges may be in. By the way, Bridges may be an athletic decline, like normal human beings. As you approach 30, your physical prime happens earlier than people think. Right. If you're not juicing. And so Bridges is maybe. That he's maybe in slight decline. I don't know. He didn't have a good year. But Bridges is a very good player. It's just. They gave up too much for him. But he was. You thought he was going to. Jake thinks that Bridges was supposed to be better than OG I never thought that. I always thought OG was the guy who was like. I mean, when you think about Toronto, I don't think it was clear who was going to be better. As when they were young, between Siakam and OG they were both.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know about better.

[Max Kellerman]

OG When The Knicks acquired OG Anunoby. To me, clearly that's the third best player on the team after Brunson and Cat. And it's like OG isn't. He was touted as a more athletic Draymond Green.

[Rich Paul]

Didn't Bridges come out better? Og?

[Max Kellerman]

No question. I mean, people thought Bridges was as good as O. Excuse me? People thought Bridges was as good as OG had the chance to be. Remember, he got hurt a lot early in his career.

[Rich Paul]

He was hurt coming in out of Indiana. Yeah, but I don't think Draymond type. I think he was a big, bigger three and D guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Who?

[Rich Paul]

Og?

[Max Kellerman]

Og. But he. If you are touted as Draymond Green with more athletic ability and a better

[Rich Paul]

shot, that was a wrong tout.

[Max Kellerman]

But, but, but the point is, versus, hey, he's a three and D guy who can also be featured as a scorer. Who would you rather have?

[Rich Paul]

I'll take either one of them.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll take the Draymond player. It's rare.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but neither one of them are Draymond players.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but. But OG has. OG's a smart player. OG can shoot. OG can defend multiple positions.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he can. And he's big.

[Max Kellerman]

Og.

[Rich Paul]

Big guy. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Ogn. When the Knicks got OG Anunoby, I thought, oh, my God, maybe they are constructing a championship caliber team.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I got it. Well, here's it. Here's.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe I'm higher on him than most people. I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

I thought it was obvious. I think the. I think the better question is, does the two overlap each other?

[Max Kellerman]

Wait a minute. When we were talking at the beginning of the season about potential trades for LeBron, I was saying we were both agreeing OG could be the piece, and I didn't want to give og up for LeBron. I mean, I would have done it at the beginning of the season, but

[Rich Paul]

is this a fancy basketball?

[Max Kellerman]

You and I were talking about it. No one was talking about trading bridges for LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's just OG's need to. I think you were just making the money match. I think it's that.

[Max Kellerman]

It's because if you put OG on the Lakers, you're like, look at this. OG Anunoby playing next to Luca. That works.

[Rich Paul]

Where was this conversation at Taco Stand on this show? Oh, really? I don't remember that. But. But still, I think it was. If. If you were saying that, then I think it was because of a financial component to it. But yeah, I think. I think that it's tough because there is some overlap. Yeah, there's Some overlap.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. I think of OG as like a three.

[Rich Paul]

Four.

[Max Kellerman]

Three, four. And Bridges is a two. Three. Bridges ain't a four.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. He's a backcourt wing as opposed to a front court. Fronter court.

[Rich Paul]

In Phoenix he was a three.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Because he has cp Booker Bridges, Right? Yes. I think that's his sweet spot right there. Sure.

[Max Kellerman]

And OG's a four and, but, but like OG can play the three and Bridges can be the two. If you play with, with Cat and, and, and, and Bronson. No, Mitchell and. Yeah, and Mitchell. Mitch. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You, you have to play both of those bigs, you're saying. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

When you want to play two with. With your center and your power.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Now who's the two on the Knicks? They start Josh Hart. Well, there it is.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. When it was divincenzo, it was. But that was before Cat.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Well, there it is. That's, that's, that's, that's the old.

[Max Kellerman]

But Josh Hart can also kind of play the four if you need him to.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yeah, or, or six, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. All right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. We've been doing, we've been, we've been talking for like five straight hours here. It's time to go.

[Rich Paul]

What time is it? That wasn't. That didn't seem that long.

[Max Kellerman]

21 and over in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinconnecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-550 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text Hopeny Y in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.