NBA Tanking, Pat Riley’s Mindset, and Science vs. Religion

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Tanking, Pat Riley’s Mindset, and Science vs. Religion
Date: February 11, 2026
Host: The Ringer
Co-hosts: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the state of the NBA—specifically tanking and "positioning" for future drafts, the perennial challenge of maintaining competitiveness and integrity in the regular season, the evolution of "Heat Culture" under Pat Riley, and a wide-ranging discussion about how science and religion relate to sports fandom. Max and Rich mix insider perspectives, passion for sports history, and big-picture thinking on business, leadership, and league evolution.

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Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Tone: Email Feedback & Show Structure

(01:08 – 05:14)

• Max and Rich introduce a new email for listener questions: [e-mail]
• Light banter about personal style, specifically Cartier glasses vs. Ray-Bans.
  • Rich: "I'm not really like a glasses guy, but it's just certain looks. And today this was the look." [04:56]
• Commitment to listener engagement and show-building based on audience questions.

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2. The Most Important Piece in NBA Team Building

(02:18 – 04:14)

• Max: In the NBA, your best player is the key to contention, even more than the coach or GM.
  • "The most important thing to your franchise that leads to success... in the NBA is your best player." [02:39]
• Discussion of Jaylen Brown’s MVP candidacy and defense.
  • Rich: "Everything that Jaylen Brown has done this year, from leadership to point production to playing the defensive side of the ball, the team is second in the East." [03:38]

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3. Deep Dive: NBA Tanking, Positioning, and Team Strategy

(07:42 – 21:10)

The Tanking Question

• Max asserts tanking is perennially problematic in the NBA, particularly apparent given the depth of the current draft.
• Max: "I believe tanking is a problem in the NBA, per se... But this draft is so deep." [08:18]

Rich Paul’s Reframe: Positioning, Not Tanking

• Rich reframes tanking as "positioning"—thoughtful, long-term strategy, not a subversion of league integrity.
  • "I don't think there's tanking going on. No tanking, No. I think it's called positioning." [09:17]
  • Teams like the Jazz aren't tanking; they're investing: acquiring assets, hiring strong front-office talent, and developing culture.

Draft Incentives and Team Building

• Max: The league’s big incentive problem is that the best way to acquire star talent is in the draft, which can trigger teams to lose intentionally.
  • "You want to put four quarters together for the dollar... if a team feels like we don't have one of those dudes... they're highly incentivized to find it in the draft." [12:28]
• Counterpoint by Rich: The lottery system means no guarantees—teams can be strategic but can't control outcomes.
  • "You can go 0 and 82 and still not get the number one pick." [14:25]
  • Emphasis on needing the right organizational structure, not just high draft picks.

Historical Draft Lessons

• Discussion of the Carmelo Anthony/Detroit Pistons draft and its impact on legacies.
  • Rich: "That's one of the people I would love to see win a champion... He would have gotten it [if drafted to Detroit]." [17:43]

Load Management, Incentives, and the Regular Season Dilemma

• Impact of load management (sitting marquee players), and resulting fan/TV dissatisfaction.
• Max: "The league wants all the teams to be competing all the time because they're selling those regular season games to the fans." [13:59]
• Regular season under threat from diluted games and unclear incentives.

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4. Fixing the NBA Product: Shorter Seasons, Better Partnership, and Leadership

(21:42 – 29:26)

Fewer Games? Players and Agents Respond

• Max floats shortening the NBA season: “The NBA probably would be helped by shortening the season.” [22:37]
• Rich is open: "I wouldn't be against shrinking the schedule at all... We’ve seen the product of a shorter season." [23:40]
  • Notes COVID-shortened seasons had positives for players and teams.
  • Acknowledges need to balance broadcast contracts and financial impact.

The Bigger Picture: Partnership & Long-Term Thinking

• Emphasis on the crucial role of leadership in taking long-term sacrifices for later gains.
  • Max: “You're talking about leadership and special leadership... Do we want to compete with the NFL... or... be shrinking?" [26:28]
• Rich highlights Adam Silver’s proactive leadership; stresses need for partnership between league, players, and representatives.

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5. Agent Power and Representation

(30:15 – 34:12)

• Max analogizes agent collaboration to the mafia’s organization of the syndicate—"Who would be at the head of this agent board?"
• Rich would be "one of the chairmen" if such a steering group existed.
  • "If that's how they seen it. Yeah." [34:05]
• The importance of agents uniting to advocate for long-range league health, not just client-by-client wins.

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6. Media, Revenue, and Global Growth

(34:29 – 37:57)

• Rich: Understanding the media landscape and global market is vital to league growth.
  • "When you complain about certain things, you have to understand the why... Amazon and YouTube are now the biggest spenders on sports media ad dollars." [35:23]
• Points to international expansion as a path similar to global soccer leagues.

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7. Revisiting Tanking, Load Management, and Solutions

(37:57 – 41:44)

• Max reiterates: tanking and load management are ongoing problems tied to season length and incentives.
• Rich: Load management is tolerable if “monitored and managed,” gives credit to Spurs for introducing it with integrity.
  • "I think load management is okay as long as we monitor it. And manage it.” [38:51]

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8. Pat Riley, Heat Culture, and Adapting

(39:44 – 46:13)

Pat Riley’s Mindset

• Max cites Riley’s openness about having to "adapt" to the modern game, admiring his competitive nature.
  • Max: "There's something so honest about the way Pat Riley competes... he tries to go get the best players he can." [40:46]

Rich Breaks Down Heat Culture

• Details Riley’s shrewd roster building with “competitive, undistracted” players like Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway.

  • "Lonzo Morning played for John Thompson... you put that pillow in your culture... that's going to have accountability." [41:30]

• Adapting to youth basketball changes: Greater manipulation of development paths, lowering of tolerance for adversity, and effects at NBA level.

  • "Every issue that we're having in the NBA is starting in youth schools." [45:42]

• Using "Pat Riley" as a verb for being held accountable and coached hard.

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9. Science vs. Religion in Sports Fandom

(47:33 – 55:08)

• Max, in his “5 Minute Max” segment, draws parallels between fans' religious adherence to beliefs ("undisprovable hypotheses") vs. the scientific method (evidence-based, open to change).
  • "I am scientific about the way I evaluate sports. I have a hypothesis. I'm hoping usually that it's wrong..." [48:50]
• Uses CJ Stroud, Steph Curry, Aaron Judge, and James Harden as examples of how new evidence can confirm or challenge prior beliefs.
• Rich agrees, emphasizing the virtue of openness to evidence: "The science... the results are going to show." [53:13]
• Max references Keynes: "When the evidence changes, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" [54:51]

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10. Product Quality, the 'Best Product' Principle, and League Strategy

(55:23 – 58:12)

• Rich: Always focus on delivering the best product, even if it requires short-term sacrifice.
  • "I'm for the best product. Because the core belief is the best product will be best in the long run." [56:32]
• Advocates for proactive planning even under long-term contracts and bringing agents together for the good of the NBA ecosystem.

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11. Loosening Free Agency to Solve Tanking

(60:07 – 61:02)

• Max: "Loosen up the free agency rules." [60:36]
• Rich: Agent collaboration is needed to push this solution forward.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rich Paul on "positioning" vs. tanking [09:17]

  "I don't think there's tanking going on. No tanking, No. I think it's called positioning."

• Max on NBA value structure [02:39]

  "The most important thing to your franchise...is your best player."

• Rich on Pat Riley [40:58]

  "There's no one more competitive than Pat Riley. The man doesn't have to do what he's doing. He's doing it because he's a competitor."

• Rich on culture and youth basketball [45:42]

  "Every issue that we're having in the NBA is starting in youth schools."

• Max on science and sports beliefs [48:50]

  "I am scientific about the way I evaluate sports. I have a hypothesis. I'm hoping usually that it's wrong."

• Rich on best product principle [56:32]

  "I'm for the best product. Because the core belief is the best product will be best in the long run."

• Max's punchline [60:36]

  "Rich, I solved the tanking problem. Loosen up the free agency rules."

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Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:08 | Show banter, audience email, Cartiers vs. aviators | | 02:18 | NBA priorities: star player vs. coach/GM | | 03:32 | Jaylen Brown MVP conversation | | 07:42 | Focus on NBA tanking, "positioning" argument | | 12:28 | Draft incentives and team-building philosophy | | 21:42 | Challenges of the regular season, shortening schedule discussion | | 26:28 | Leadership and long-term thinking in league management | | 30:15 | Agent collaboration and potential union | | 34:29 | Global marketing, media, and Amazon/YouTube's influence | | 37:57 | Load management, regular season "issues", Spurs model | | 39:44 | Pat Riley’s mindset, Heat culture, adapting to new talent | | 47:33 | "5 Minute Max": Science vs. Religion in sports belief | | 55:23 | Delivering the best product principle | | 60:07 | Loosening free agency as a solution to tanking | | 62:09 | Closing banter about All-Star Weekend, New Balance shoes |

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Tone & Takeaways

• Blend of humor and depth: Banter about glasses and style eases into serious, industry-insider perspectives.
• Rich Paul brings a pragmatic, player/agent-focused response to perennial NBA problems—he's all about strategy over cynicism.
• Max Kellerman pushes for evidence-based debate, challenges guests and listeners to critically examine their sports beliefs, and isn't afraid to point out systemic flaws.
• Both hosts agree: The NBA's future depends on long-term, collaborative planning, not just short-term wins.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Show

This episode explores the NBA’s notorious tanking/positioning phenomenon, how league and team incentives shape the regular season, why Pat Riley’s culture-building still matters, and what real long-term leadership looks like in sports and business. The science vs. religion segment encourages evidence-based fandom over pure loyalty. Listeners gain a unique inside view on both the business and ethical sides of modern professional basketball.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Rich Paul]

Guess what, Max? What's up? We have an email address.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, that's right. Let's start. Set it off right there. Let's start interacting.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, it's game [e-mail] love easy email addresses.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, simple weird dots and things in the middle. Spotify.com gameoverpotify.com yes.

[Rich Paul]

And we want the questions.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

We also have to listen to our supporters. You think I don't know you hate listening? I just tried to talk to you for seven minutes. You didn't listen to one thing I said.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm sorry, what was that?

[Rich Paul]

We have an email address which is a great.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I'm excited about. This is just purely selfish. Giants keep hiring head coaches to do everything. They got head coaches sweeping up the facility. I'm talking about guy. Either a head coach in the NFL or college. Passing coordinators, tight ends. It doesn't matter who it is. The, you know, maintenance guy used to be a head coach somewhere.

[Rich Paul]

You know what? I think the Giants are finally going to take a turn.

[Max Kellerman]

I think so.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yes, yes.

[Max Kellerman]

It's all NFL is head coach. NFL still is head coach.

[Rich Paul]

Head coach. Yeah. NBA is head coach.

[Max Kellerman]

No, NBA. I would say broadly speaking, because of course you need a good coach. But Major League Baseball is about the general manager. NBA is about your best player. NFL is about the head coach.

[Rich Paul]

But when you say the NBA. So each one of those people dictates what?

[Max Kellerman]

The most important thing to your franchise that leads to success. If you can only choose one, obviously it takes a lot more. But if you could have one thing, the hardest thing to get on your team, that means the most success in the NBA is your best player. One of those dudes. If you have that, you immediately have.

[Rich Paul]

A good foundation, and that's just only talent.

[Max Kellerman]

Or if you have Jokic, or if you have. If Tatum is healthy, or if you have someone like that, or even the Lakers right now with Luka, who doesn't play defense. But you're. If you have that guy now, you have something you can build right now. Of course, you need the right people making decisions. Of course, the coach makes a big difference. But you need that top dude in the NBA more than in any.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Boston actually has two. Yeah. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you think about the Jaylen Brown MVP argument nowadays?

[Rich Paul]

I think it's real.

[Max Kellerman]

I think it's real, too.

[Rich Paul]

Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Like this. This whole idea that. I don't know, man. Everybody always moves the goal post. Everything that Jaylen Brown has done this year, from leadership to point production to playing the defensive side of the ball, the team is second in the East.

[Max Kellerman]

I think I mentioned Luka doesn't play defense. Right. Jaylen Brown certainly does.

[Rich Paul]

That man deserves to be an mvp. I agree. Not only in the MVP conversation. If the season ended today and Jaylen Brown was the mvp, I wouldn't be mad.

[Max Kellerman]

Me neither.

[Rich Paul]

I would not be mad.

[Max Kellerman]

He also kept the team afloat. That people wrote off that a less competitive guy and less competitive franchise. And by the way, those frames are fresh to death. What are those?

[Rich Paul]

You don't know what these are? Not off the top of my head.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, I don't know glasses like that.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

[Max Kellerman]

So you don't listen.

[Rich Paul]

I do listen. You don't listen. But these are. These are Cartier.

[Max Kellerman]

Cartier.

[Rich Paul]

You know, just a little. Little.

[Max Kellerman]

I went and looked. The frames are too wide for my face.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they have so many different selections. Just gotta go in. Really? What are you, like a Ray Ban guy?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Playing Aviator. Yeah, I tried.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not really like a glasses guy, but it's just certain looks. And today this was the look. I just. I had these. I had these for forever. I just never wear them. Look at you.

[Max Kellerman]

But they kind of stand on business. Monday, it's not. What do we call Fridays? It's just regular Wednesday. You threw on the Cartiers.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Today's Wednesday. Yeah, yeah. Wild, wild and crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

So gameoverpotify.com we have an email.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, we'll respond and we'll actually. You know what? Depending on the response we get, we can actually build a show.

[Max Kellerman]

You want just a whole show?

[Rich Paul]

Just not a whole show, but take some time to really. Depending on what we get, we can give some feedback, answer some questions. Yeah, yeah. I like to show the people love.

[Max Kellerman]

You want to start the actual show?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Let's pay some bills first.

[Max Kellerman]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over. Right now.

[Rich Paul]

Listen to all 90s coming in this morning like that. 94, 95, 96, 97.

[Max Kellerman]

To me, 94, 95, 96 is like, there were things going on when Capone and Noriega dropped after Mobb deep in the middle of Dirty and Purple Tape, where I was like, I couldn't even believe how good music was. I couldn't even believe it.

[Rich Paul]

The thing I loved about music then, and not to discourage the music now, but more so then it just put so many of the artists set a scene. They were great at setting a scene that you can visualize whether it was a date, whether it was a hang, what it was.

[Max Kellerman]

Storytellers.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Extravaganza.

[Max Kellerman]

Ghost would tell a story. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Well, Biggie was the best storyteller.

[Max Kellerman]

Biggie was great. Yeah. I can't even say who it was who put me up years ago on who Biggie was talking about. I got a story to tell.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But like, that's come out since then.

[Rich Paul]

But when Biggie said, I'm sitting in the crib dreaming about Lear jets and coots, the way salt shoots and how to sell records like Snoop Boots. Oh, my God. When he said that, I'm like, this guy, he's an animal. He was. What was he, 23 when he said that?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he was. I mean, he died at 24.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, my God. But anyway, yeah. What we got today.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. You ready to start this show?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Have we started it?

[Rich Paul]

We started the show already. You always say, are you ready to start the show? The show has started, man. The show has started. Once the cameras is on, we're paying bills, the show is starting.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's the big topic that everyone's talking about now. You know, in the week of the super bowl, now everyone's focused on the NBA. Right before we really get deep into March Madness, it's tanking in the NBA. This is the giant topic where the Utah Jazz look, they bring in Triple J. They did not trade market in which I thought might happen. I mean, Zach Lowe's been talking about it forever, Right. And talking about Detroit, which I thought was a great idea. Market into Detroit, but they keep marketing and bring in Triple J, who's an expensive player. Right. So you're thinking, oh, they can compete. Some people might be thinking that. But this draft is so deep. Rich, let me just say I want to make a. Here's my topic statement, okay? On the tanking. I believe tanking is a problem in the NBA, per se. Generally. It's a problem this year, though. If I'm a Utah Jazz fan, I understand what they're doing. If I'm an Indiana Pacers fan, I'm actually mad that they beat the Knicks last night. If I'm a Washington Wizards fan, I get it. Because all those teams, especially the Pacers, but all those teams have good nucleuses that look like they can do something. And if you think in this draft, which by all everyone's lights is one of the best they can remember and deep in terms of how many transformative players there could be in it, the fan base will understand why you want one of those guys. What do you think about that issue right now?

[Rich Paul]

I don't think there's tanking going on. No tanking, No. I think it's called. I think for me, from my seat, it's positioning. And the reason why I say that is because, first of all, yes, it's a great draft, but no player in this draft, per se, by themselves, is taking you to the promised land, at least not in the first year.

[Max Kellerman]

There's no LeBron James. There's no.

[Rich Paul]

And he didn't take you to the promised land.

[Max Kellerman]

No one's gonna take you to the Magic Johnson.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe the thing that matters most is you have to have a plan, right? And you can complain about each team and what they're doing, but are you really paying attention is the question I have. What I see in the Utah Jazz is different than what other people see. They just traded for a player on a max deal. That's definitely not tanking. Right. They're not adding to their salary cap in a way in which.

[Max Kellerman]

In the hamstring, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It limits their flexibility to tank. They had already had a pretty strong front office. You know, Dennis Lindsey is great executive right now. They bring in Danny Ainge and Austin.

[Max Kellerman]

You talk about front office depth a lot.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm getting to.

[Max Kellerman]

Why is depth important?

[Rich Paul]

Because this is what I'm getting to. You bring in Danny, you bring in Austin, you have Ryan Smith, who, if you don't know Who Ryan Smith is. He's. I mean, he's one of the owners you definitely want to play for because he. Not only is he younger and in the know and connected, but he gets it on all levels, especially high level business. And he's doing an unbelievable job. Not just for the city of Salt Lake, for the state of Utah, him and his brother and his team. But in addition to that, you hire Will Hardy, right? Really good young coach. So you have your consistency there, the front office. You still have Justin Zanuck there and others. What they're doing is they're positioning themselves. And you gotta keep in mind, look at Detroit, Max. Everyone complained about Detroit the year before. Last year they were deemed to be.

[Max Kellerman]

What are they doing in the dumps?

[Rich Paul]

What are they doing?

[Max Kellerman]

Winning the league? Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

They're the number one team in the East. That was exactly three years. Remember, I talk to you all the time about timeline. When you look up and you look at Utah, obviously things didn't go the way they probably would have wanted to go in last year's draft. So they have to take whoever they take. This year's draft, yes, it's loaded. It's a lot of young talent in this year's draft. But at the same time, we cannot have it every which way. I do not believe the integrity of our league is being challenged. Because teams have strategy. What else do you want them to have? You want them to. You want to run a five, six, seven billion dollars organization frivolously, you don't want to do that.

[Max Kellerman]

The issue is. The real issue I see in the NBA is what we talked about earlier. The number one thing in basketball is getting one of those dudes. That's the hardest thing to get. You never want to break a dollar into four quarters in the NBA. You want to put four quarters together for the dollar, right?

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely.

[Max Kellerman]

Trade Lamar Odoman. It's not my original, but you trade Lamar Odom and a bunch of players, you guys bring in Shaq, if you can do that, you do that, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And because of that, if a team feels like we don't have one of those dudes, or maybe we have it, but we need a little more. They are highly incentivized to find it in the draft. And that is so strategy, as you point out, might involve. Especially if you incentivize it. The worse you do, the more likely you are to get one of those guys in the draft. You're gonna incentivize strategic teams to tank. It's like, this is the analogy. If you count cards in a casino, that strategy might not be illegal. But you know what? Casino's not gonna like it if the casino finds out that you're counting cards. And there are a lot of card counters in the NBA right now. But the process some bad, right? But the process of counting cards, the difference is the process of counting cards kind of ruins the game. And so. And so the casino really doesn't like it.

[Rich Paul]

Not if you win it. Don't ruin the game.

[Max Kellerman]

But no, I'm saying it.

[Rich Paul]

You rather be broke because you want to.

[Max Kellerman]

But the incentives hit on 17.

[Rich Paul]

The incentives are not aligned play the right way.

[Max Kellerman]

The incentives for the team are different than the incentives for the league. The league wants all the teams to be competing all the time because they're selling those regular season games to the fans. One of the reasons, as you know better than anyone, the TV contract is so big, but there are so many regular season games and because of the incentives of the draft that I just mentioned, they're not getting that. They're getting a lot of teams who are not fielding their best team and not really trying to win.

[Rich Paul]

That's not true. Here's the thing again. When you talk about strategy and you talk about tanking, there's no guarantee you can go 0 and 82 and still.

[Max Kellerman]

Not get the number one pick and.

[Rich Paul]

Still not get the number one Pick.

[Max Kellerman]

And still do it.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing. When the cavs had an 8% chance of getting the number one pick, they got it. 8% chance they got it. That was the Clippers pick from the Baron Davis trade.

[Max Kellerman]

And Ewing went to the Knicks, right? And some things have happened in the NBA that may be just unlikely but lead to conspiracy.

[Rich Paul]

Last year it was Cooper. Dallas didn't have the best chance of getting the number one pick. So and to add to that, even if you do get the number one pick, you have to make the right choice, right? It's not like there's a clear cut number one pick. We can make the argument no one.

[Max Kellerman]

Has a crystal ball, right?

[Rich Paul]

Listen, you can make the argument. I told you before, I personally, if you are a GM in this year's draft, you and your team is going to have to really, really, really study it. Because a guy like Darren Peterson, you.

[Max Kellerman]

Might rather pick third or fourth because the pressure the right guy might just fall to you.

[Rich Paul]

His shooting translates. Caleb Wilson. Caleb Wilson. For my money, I'm taking him number one.

[Max Kellerman]

For my money, Peterson looks pretty good.

[Rich Paul]

Peterson is really good. Peterson is really good. But again, it's A1, A1B, however you want to call it. I'd rather be sitting in the second seat.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

And that's in this case right now, in the draft that you talked about on the last show. Maybe not so much. I maybe rather be sitting in the third seat because the second seat was not Wise Men. You mean in that draft when you talked about.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, Anthony Edwards.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I'm saying that draft, your draft positioning matters, because am I making the choice, the best choice for my organization, or in most cases, am I just taking the best player on the board? Once you get past, outside of really four and five, you start to take the best player on the board.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, I remember a draft like that, and it didn't pan out exactly, but I thought Porzingis was a really interesting player in the draft, and the Knicks wound up taking him. He fell to them because he was less of a sure thing or a known commodity as some of the other guys. And I thought at the time a lot of people did, like, they might have been better off letting him, like, being where they were. And that dude fell to him.

[Rich Paul]

You learn from it. Remember in the 03 draft, Darko went to.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But why? Because Detroit was so loaded. Do we take a Mello and he coming here and, you know, like, we already got this team. We go into Eastern Conference finals.

[Max Kellerman]

The Mello argument's a tough one. That broke tough. That was a fateful decision for Detroit and for Carmelo's career. We would think about Carmelo differently had he been drafted by Detroit.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you think about Carmelo. You might have think about Carmelo. You wouldn't think I think about Carmelo.

[Max Kellerman]

If he had a championship or two. You.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, of course. Yeah. That's one of the people I would love to see win a champion he.

[Max Kellerman]

Might have gotten in his rookie year.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he would have gotten it.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying it. In that P Pistons team, he averages 17 points a game. 18 points.

[Rich Paul]

He would have gotten it. They won in 2004.

[Max Kellerman]

He would have gotten. Right? He would have. For sure.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

So. So. I'm just saying.

[Max Kellerman]

So. So actually, he would have. He might be sitting on three chips right now.

[Rich Paul]

So I'm just. Yeah, I'm just saying, like, this idea of, oh, it's terrible, so and so forth. Not if you have a plan. And by the way, I believe in everything that Utah's doing. And do you watch Utah play?

[Max Kellerman]

Not much.

[Rich Paul]

The games that people are complaining about.

[Max Kellerman]

Utah's a Drive by, flip by for.

[Rich Paul]

Me, you know, okay, that's fine. But the game that people can. The games that people complain about, they win, right? They're winning.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I mentioned the Pacers earlier. The Pacers because of Halliburton's injury, we talked about this a couple shows ago. Are in that warriors slash spurs position when, when Steph or when Robinson got hurt. And the Pacers with Rick Carlisle kind of, they beat the Knicks. And I'm thinking, did they do that by accident?

[Rich Paul]

Like, like what do they.

[Max Kellerman]

If I'm a Pacers fan and I'm watching that come back. Come on, man.

[Rich Paul]

You don't come back by accident.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, I'm just saying.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're a fan as of the Pacers, you might not be happy about that win.

[Rich Paul]

No, if you're a fan of the Pacers, you just hoping that Halliburton comes back, let him and the ping pong.

[Max Kellerman]

Balls bounce your way and that's just.

[Rich Paul]

An embarrassment of riches. So they were all. They were just in the Finals. Right. But that goes to show you how deep of a team that they actually have.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

By the way, look at what Charlotte is doing. Charlotte was on a nine game win streak.

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

1.

[Rich Paul]

So are the Knicks. When you want to complain about tanking, give Charlotte credit.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Because.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but they have every reason to.

[Rich Paul]

So called.

[Max Kellerman]

What we're doing is describing the phenomenon, right. And you're saying, and given these set of incentives and given the way the NBA works, teams are positioning, let's call it positioning.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And other teams are still competing when maybe it's not in their best interest to win games necessarily. That's true. However, we both know, everybody knows the NBA is a product where the playoffs are awesome, but for several reasons. One, because until recently you had a pretty good idea of who was going to win the championship heading into it because it was so heavily reliant on the team with the best player. That was usually how it went throughout NBA history, especially if there was more than one of those guys on the same team. But certainly you had a very good idea of the two or three teams that would be in it at the end, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Do you have one now? Huh? Do you have that now?

[Max Kellerman]

Less so now. Less so now.

[Rich Paul]

Which is good for the league.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. But I'm talking about the playoffs now, right? The playoffs have gotten more interesting because it feels like there's more. Not randomness, but variety in the possible win.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But the regular season, which is 82 games long. There are incentives created by the media, the fans, players themselves, organizations to win championships. You're not any. Like we just talked about Carmelo. Oh, if you would have had a championship, right? And guys like you from the inside go, come on, man. We're placing too much of an emphasis on that in terms of evaluating guys careers. But because of that, franchises and players like say the Clippers and Kawhi, given his injury history, hold him back out of games, right? Load management, they just came up with the not long ago, the 65 game rule. LeBron is now ineligible for anything like that because he sat out last night, which makes sense at his age given like what they need from him. But those incentives, he don't need another trophy.

[Rich Paul]

He don't have any room.

[Max Kellerman]

And yet if you watched the Lakers last night, you didn't see Luka, you didn't see Reeves, you didn't see LeBron, you didn't see the Lakers. So the league has an issue. Whether we like it or not. That's an issue. They have a huge TV contract. The ratings are not good right now. And NBA is my favorite league.

[Rich Paul]

He says the ratings aren't good. Do you have the data?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't have in front of me, but I've. But I know the ratings are not good. No one's happy with the ratings right now, Rich. That's the truth. And, and well, I'll be the.

[Rich Paul]

I'll be the judge of that.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, we're going to get the rate. You know what, our research department over here. Why don't we get the info on.

[Rich Paul]

The rating Research department is like a guy standing next to just put a.

[Max Kellerman]

Rotary phone, put a lower third and either I'm right or you're right and we'll see. And then they can email about it at. What are they going to email? Game [e-mail] Spotify.com and they'll comment on who is right.

[Rich Paul]

Flashing.

[Max Kellerman]

So, so, so the NBA does have an issue in the regular season. And there are certain ways you might go about fixing it. The most obvious One is take 10 games off the schedule. And that 10 is a random number. It may be more, it may be less, but it's like Major League Baseball, 162 games. Because baseball's a very local sport. The local networks want all those, all that inventory, but it waters down the regular season. Those games just aren't that important. NBA probably would be helped by shortening the season. However, Rich, my assumption is, and guys like you might be like, hold On a second, if the inventory goes down, the overall pie shrinks. And so I represent people who would then, at least in the short term, make less money or would. Would guys like you. Would you for instance, be against. We're using the word per se a lot, but let's use it again. You know, shrinking the schedule, for example, if that was one of the solutions to a problem of a watered down regular season where there's load management and all those kind of things, no, I.

[Rich Paul]

Wouldn'T be against shrinking the schedule at all. I mean, we've seen the product of a shorter season, but look, there's nobody.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you mean we've seen the product in a shorter season?

[Rich Paul]

Well, when we play, I think the game, I think the COVID year, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Not a full season.

[Rich Paul]

It's not a full game. So there's 10 games and people and a lot of the players like there was less back to backs, a lot of the less three games and four nights type of situation. So I think the players were really pleased with that. I also think the organizations was pleased with that. I also think that the league office was pleased with that. Right. Nobody in our ecosystem wants the issues that come with the seasons, the injuries, the staleness here and there. Nobody. That's why you constantly trying to find ways to fix it. With that being said, there are contractual agreements, right? I'm all for the players.

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying the network deals right now. So it couldn't be now. It would have to be in the next round of.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, because here's the thing about it. You know this more than anybody talk. We've talked a long time. I want the players to make as much money as they possibly can. I want the league to make as much money as they possibly can. I want the sponsors, the partners of the league to be. I want their ROI to be off the charts.

[Max Kellerman]

That happens when the fan experience is really good.

[Rich Paul]

I want the fan experience to be fantastic. We want all of that. I really do. Hell, I want the middle class to come back in the NBA because right now we're missing the upper middle class, right? There's no more guys making 17, 18, 19 like we. There was a time.

[Max Kellerman]

Sports middle class. Everybody sports middle class. You're very rich.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, sports middle class. There was a time where there was a abundance of players that made that type of money.

[Max Kellerman]

Although back then it was five to eight. But this is going back 10, 20 years.

[Rich Paul]

But things change. Well, even. Yeah, definitely 10.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Mid level exceptions and Right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, the mid level is much higher Today, Sure. But what happens is the mid level used to go to one guy. Now they're splitting it. So, you know, but again, we cannot have it every which way. I know for a fact the effort that our league executives put forth to try to put out a great product at the same time, if we have to take less in the now to receive more later, Right. Then I'm all for putting out the best product because the best product is going to position us for the long haul.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, you know what you're really talking about? You're talking about leadership and special leadership. Because you saying. And I could see that you run your business that way. Actually, that doesn't.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, I just had this conversation the other day.

[Max Kellerman]

I see. Clutch. But it doesn't mean that you don't sometimes take a bird in the hand. Right? Sometimes. You got it. It depends on the situation. But you're saying it's most people's behavior, even executives who should know better are shaped by short term incentives.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And the longer big term picture is harder for them to see because there's pressure. Their clients want their money now, they're in their primes now, et cetera. And the league and their partners are going, what are you talking about? Why would we, Pat, Why would we reduce what we get?

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

But it takes a special kind of person or leader to say, wait, everybody, we want a bigger pie in the long run, even though this is not advantageous for us in the next year or two. Let's look six, seven years down the road, right? Do we want to compete with the NFL or do we want to be shrinking? Because right now the NBA's trajectory is. It's neck and neck with Major League Baseball kind of trending ahead of it in recent years. And the NFL is up here. You want to trend toward that or you want to go back down. So. But you're really talking about leadership, doing the smart thing in the long run and resisting the temptation of short term gains of short money.

[Rich Paul]

But I think our leader. I think we're in great hands with Adam. Adam, no question. Adam has done a tremendous job.

[Max Kellerman]

I think he has too, Rich. But isn't this a test now for him also? What's in front of him? I agree. I think Adam Silver's been an outstanding commissioner, but that doesn't mean that you will always be outstanding. You have to constantly make the right decisions.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I know for a fact that every day he's thinking about ways to improve. There's no question about it. And this is why I always Say to the players, we have to view the league from a partnership perspective. You have to meet Adam halfway because he can come up. Him and his team can come up with the greatest plan ever and all these different things, but that's just getting to the 50. There is a responsibility where he has to depend on the workforce as well. Right. And so it don't matter how great you ideate if you can't execute to the fullest. And so for me, I spend as much time as I can, when I can, talking to Adam and try to have a better understanding just to help. We just have a small amount of real estate throughout the NBA. The NBA is a big thing and there's big companies from a representation standpoint. I mean, I think we're like 13% market share or something like that, which is a pretty big number.

[Max Kellerman]

Big number.

[Rich Paul]

Right. But ultimately this takes a collective effort.

[Max Kellerman]

So who. So, okay, so I made the point on Monday's show that the name you don't hear is Dird, the defensive coordinator from Seattle, because he's not the big concept guy, that's McDonald and McDonald's calling the defensive plays and he's brilliant and all that, but dirt is the guy installing it. Right. And that guy, the boots on the ground guy who actually. You just said the difference ideation and execution, Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

That person or those people are important, the installers. Right. Who is that when you say the players have to meet the league halfway? Who fills that niche where they shepherd that along? Is that you? Is that guys like you who. Because that's. It's going to take something.

[Rich Paul]

It could be. Here's the issue we have. Right. And I think that from a representation perspective, if we stop watering down our positioning from a representation perspective, it could be us to help do that.

[Max Kellerman]

What's watering down?

[Rich Paul]

The problem is we have so many agents, right. And to get a client, they're willing to do any and everything. And so you start to saturate the integrity within the representation. So you can't actually represent to the fullest because you're not. A lot of guys aren't valued or I mean a lot of ways, like respected in that way. We don't have a union. Agents don't get in the room and have conversations. Agents don't get.

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying is the point that there's no centralized authority among agents making long.

[Rich Paul]

Term plans, helping make long term plans. No, it isn't.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you'd be in favor of an agent of a union for agents.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I would be in favor of that. Because the reality of it is this. You're going to represent whoever you represent. This mentality of winning the green room. I've never celebrated a green room a day in my life. Who cares about that? That's for the family and the player for that night only. The next day you become one of 450. You have to prove yourself. Didn't you just see the kid? Tomlin from the Cavs? He never played high. He didn't play high school, didn't really play college. And he's a monster. He plays. He embraces his role. He just got a contract. So nobody can go to sleep with both eyes closed unless you're one of two to three people.

[Podcast Host]

This episode is brought to you by Firehouse Subs who just dropped a game changing sandwich? The French dip. Literally one of my favorite sandwiches slash subs. Roast beef, caramelized onions, melty cheese, little freshly toasted garlic butter roll and the warm savory au jus. I've been eating these forever, since I was living on the east coast in la. I think to me, this versus the cheesesteak, the French dip, no contest, way better. And I think it's really because of the au jus. I don't know anybody who doesn't like au jus. An elite game day sub. Fun to order by the way, if you want it delivered. Because they usually put the au jus in the special little container. You can pour it on, knock yourself out. The French dip here for a limited time. I wish it was longer. Only at Firehouse Subs. Limited time at participating Firehouse Subs restaurants while supplies last. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced wi fi, phone, TV, mobile services. Plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

[Max Kellerman]

You like mob history? Like I do, right? I mean most.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I do.

[Max Kellerman]

So this sounds a little bit like, you know, Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky went to all the mob bosses once upon a time and said, let's form a syndicate, right? Like a corporation. And we'll have a board of directors which is the commission. And of course Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky, whose idea it was Lucky Satan. He was the. He sat at the head of the board. Who would be at the head of this agent board?

[Rich Paul]

I definitely would be amongst. Amongst others. You know There's, There's a lot of guys I respect.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, I'm saying a lot of guys would be around the table on the board of directors.

[Rich Paul]

I would be one of them for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Would you be the. Would you be the chairman of the board?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I nominate Rich Paul for chairman of the board.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I would. I would. If they, if. If that's how. That's how they seen it. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Lucky Louie. Lucky me. That's the name of your book. Perfect.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is we have to be able to meet our league, have. Adam is doing a hell of a job. I don't deal with. There's, there's no, there's no stage or platform. I'm going to get on and say anything different.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree with you, Rich. Wait, let me be very clear. He has clearly, objectively, Adam Silver, following a great commissioner, by the way. It's not an easy thing to do.

[Rich Paul]

Which was a very hard thing to do.

[Max Kellerman]

Very. And he's done an. He's done a superb job. That doesn't. No one's perfect. And that doesn't mean that past is necessarily prologue. Meaning just because you've done it until now doesn't mean you will still do it forever. That's why I'm saying here's a challenge for Adam Silver going forward. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And I imagine the goal would be to make sure that our league is in great hands, which is why growing the game people talk about, oh, well, it's hard to find games. Do you see if you, if you take the data of the ad dollars that's being spent in media today, where you think they're being spent, that who you think is number one at what league is number.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you say?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. Within the end, what league, what. What company is number one with ad dollars spent attributing to them?

[Max Kellerman]

That's a great question. I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

Off the top, I'll tell you, is Amazon.

[Max Kellerman]

Amazon 2 is YouTube. So it's, it's the broadcasters.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm telling you. So, so when you, when you complain about certain things, you have to understand the why, like we always complaining, but no one wants to understand the why.

[Max Kellerman]

What does that mean? If your biggest advertisers are the people saying, hey, watch this product over here.

[Rich Paul]

That means you put the product on that platform. That's what that means.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. But I wonder how sustainable that is.

[Rich Paul]

Well, is that sustainable as it's going to be in the current moment? But again, just to close the loop, I Say all that to say again, where we're trying to grow the game, where I suspect we're trying to grow the game is globally.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Right. NBA, Europe. You see that we're taking more and more trips overseas during the regular season to grow together.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, it's the fastest growing team sport worldwide for a long time.

[Rich Paul]

There's so much real estate to be developed in the NBA. And if the players can understand this, the reason why the game of football, which we call soccer is so lucrative is because they have nine different leagues. So. So if we're in a situation where you have nine different leagues as a player, I want that for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Competition's good.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And I have competition drive. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You know, so the consumer, when I talk to my colleagues on the football side, they're like, man, they're in the transfer window for a month.

[Max Kellerman]

Meaning soccer.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

They're locked in.

[Max Kellerman]

Gotta call it football or something. So I know.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. European football.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

They're in the. They're in the transfer window for a month. There's seven. There's seven different leagues. Right. So when you looking at that ebitda, you like, God bless you.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, sorry.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, you're like, wow. Because you understand it. I don't know. For us, we have one. So. So, so for our league to be growing the way that it wants to grow. Yeah, it's. It's something that I'm all for. While at the same time, yes, we have to protect the integrity of our game. And I think we're doing that. I do not think it's called tanking. I think it's called position.

[Max Kellerman]

I want to bring up. I agree with you, but. And I don't think it is a problem this year, actually, because I think the fan bases will understand and a lot of the teams that are, that are positioning or tanking, whatever you want to call it, are being smart. But I do think that tanking and load management are issues. And. And I think a lot of that's related to the length of the schedule and.

[Rich Paul]

But the low management, the way the.

[Max Kellerman]

Draft incentives are, I will say the low I want to quote, I want to get again.

[Rich Paul]

And then load management piece is us being given an inch and taking them out. Right, Right. Because when the spurs introduced load management.

[Max Kellerman]

Guys wouldn't even go on trips.

[Rich Paul]

But they did it with all integrity in place. Right, Right.

[Max Kellerman]

They were still competing.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. They did not take a mile. That's not true. So I think load management is okay as long as we monitor it.

[Max Kellerman]

As long as we manage it.

[Rich Paul]

And manage it.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's manage the load. So, Rich, I want to get to this quote because I think that it's such an interesting quote to me from Pat Riley. I'm not a big fan of today's game, but I have to adapt like, like everyone else, which is, which I've done. I just want to tell you my thought. I want to hear like what you think he's talking about here. But my first thought, my first thought about this, Rich, is there's something so honest about the way Pat Riley competes. He, like when he said he has to adapt. Pat Riley, when he went and grabbed Alonzo Morning and Tim Hardaway when he first got to Miami, it was really a dead end. Alonzo Mourning, great player. Tim Hardaway, great player. It wasn't going to be enough to go all the way in that league, but it was the best you could do. And they competed like hell. They never got out of the first round, basically because they'd play the Knicks every year and just run up against.

[Rich Paul]

Or the Bulls.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. And, but, but they were so competitive and good. And if you were in Miami, you had to have such pride about those teams. And throughout the years, different iterations of the Heat. Pat Riley looks, it's not that he does it, he does it with strategy, but he tries to go get the best players he can. And then depending on who that those players are, they'll adapt their way. They do the offense and you have to say Spoelstra too, obviously. And they, and they compete. There's something that is a very. I wouldn't always do it that way. I believe in what Utah's doing right now, but maybe Pat Riley's just more competitive than me. But, and I'm not saying Pat Riley does. Hasn't also positioned himself because they have. But by and large, this dude is looking always to field the best team. Even if someone else is saying that's a dead end team. That's this is as good as we can do and we're going to compete. How do you read? I'm not a big fan of today's game, but I have to adapt like everyone else, which I've done. What's he talking about?

[Rich Paul]

Look, there's no one more competitive than Pat Riley. The man doesn't have to do what he's doing. He's doing it because he's a competitor.

[Max Kellerman]

He's psychotic. Yes, he's defective competitive.

[Rich Paul]

He's the ultimate competitor. You said he went and got Alonzo Moore and he went and got Tim Hardaway. Do you know why? I never asked him this question.

[Max Kellerman]

But then that's the way you would win. You needed someone to match up with Patrick Ewing in the east and the point guard, center. And that's how he won in la. That's how he tried to do it in New York with, you know, with Patrick Ewing and trying different point guards and those two guys were available. So he got the two guys who the best versions he could find of that and put them together and they played hard.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, it's even deeper than that. Lonzo Morning played for John Thompson four years at Georgetown. Right. So now you put that pillow in your culture. Somebody that's going to have accountability, somebody that you can coach, somebody that's going to be competitive and fierce, that puts and somebody who's going to be able to not be distracted by South Beach. Right, right. So, and then back in those days, the guard and the big matter. So now you go and get Tim Hardaway. Where's Tim Hartley from? Oakland. No, he's not. No, from Chicago.

[Max Kellerman]

From Chicago. Sorry, sorry.

[Rich Paul]

He played in Oakland.

[Max Kellerman]

He played.

[Rich Paul]

Sorry. No, I'll give you that. No problem. So now you get a hard nosed Midwest guy who's also the ultimate competitor and like you said, what's the best on the market that you can get?

[Max Kellerman]

I wanted the Knicks to get him.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Then you look at it and you have these other pieces. But the point I'm making is that was the beginning of Heat culture, no question.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, everything you're saying is obviously true.

[Rich Paul]

So now when Pat says that he doesn't love today's game, I can imagine, and I've never had this conversation with him, but I will because I love talking to Pat. But there's a competitive nature that you have to have within you night in and night out for Pat Riley, whether he's a coach, whether he's a front office guy. Also there's an accountability. Can you sit in a film room, be called out and not necessarily take it personal, but take it with you into tonight's game and perform? Can you do that? Okay. Can you sacrifice Chris Bosh? Could. He definitely did it and he won. Right. So when Pat is evaluating talent, he's not just evaluating your skill set, he's evaluating your capabilities to do all the things that he knows it takes to actually win.

[Max Kellerman]

God, I love that so much.

[Rich Paul]

That's why so many guys, when they get to Miami, you like, damn, that guy. That's him. Yes, that's him. Now, they may look different somewhere else, but that's him. In that black and red unit, one.

[Max Kellerman]

Of the best compliments to a player is that the Heat want you, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, if Pat Riley and Eric Spoelstra want you, that's a huge.

[Rich Paul]

I always say, if I have a guy in the draft, please take him.

[Max Kellerman]

Miami Rich. My brothers and I growing up, if we needed, like, sometimes, like, you know, your brother needs. Or your friend needs a little help, right, with something, one of us would ask the other one, you need me to Pat Riley this. Like, in other words, do you need me to coach you through this? Do you need me to stay on you? Do you need me to hold you accountable? We literally use Pat Riley as a verb. Do you want me to Pat Riley this for you? Meaning, you know, really being.

[Rich Paul]

Really help you with it. And when you. When you talk about the adaption, he's saying, yeah, I have to adapt to all these things that I shouldn't necessarily have to. But now today's kid coming into the game, you know, everything, every. The journey is manipulated. Right. When people try to make the assumption or paint a picture that was totally different from when we were in Miami for those four years. When you play for a coach like Drew Joyce or Keith Danbrock or even when I played for Frank Novak. Coach Jay at Glenville, I talked about the Cappellettis and the Quasniaks and the Wances and things like that. You went to these schools to play. If I didn't make varsity, I didn't leave the school. I just played jv and hopefully next year, I work all summer, I play varsity. Coming in today, everything is being manipulated. And this goes back to our youth. Every issue that we're having in the NBA is starting in youth schools, and.

[Max Kellerman]

You reap what you sow.

[Rich Paul]

I can guarantee it. So when you talk about adapting, it's like, well, you know what it used to be. I will not. No, we're not accepting that. We won't tolerate that now. Today, it's okay. Well, let's just see. You know, it went from, we're not tolerating that to let's just, you gotta.

[Max Kellerman]

Talk to Pat Riley to see if that's what he was saying. Because it sounds right.

[Rich Paul]

I would love to. No, he'll tell me 100%. He'll tell me.

[Podcast Host]

This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. And New Year means a whole new batch of wellness goals. And Whole Foods Market is the best place to start from sales on supplements of vitamins, protein powders, probiotics, and much more. They've got Everything you need to upgrade your routine with ingredients you can trust. You'll also find lean proteins like sustainable wild caught sockeye salmon. Plus smart meal shortcuts from the 365 brand like their ready to eat salads. Even dry January is covered with a host of non alcoholic drinks. Shop all things wellness at Whole Foods market. Must be 21 plus in select states. This episode is brought to you by Viori. Look, I'm not a big let's hype up workout clothes guy, but Vuori, I gotta say, total game changer. Been wearing a lot. If you see me power walking around Los Angeles, probably going to see me wearing some Viori Sunday performance joggers that they have. It's made with four way performance stretch fabric, one of the most comfortable things you own. You will wear them everywhere, I promise. All you have to do is go to viori.com Simmons and you get 20% off your first purchase with Viori. V U O-R-I.com Simmons. Enjoy. Free shipping on all US orders over $75 plus free returns.

[Rich Paul]

Exclusions apply.

[Podcast Host]

Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

[Max Kellerman]

You ready for five minute max? I got a.

[Rich Paul]

If it's gonna really be five minutes, if it's gonna be 55 minutes, then the answer is no. If it's gonna be five minutes, then the answer is yes. How about this? Let's do a three minute max because we know it's gonna be five.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I'm gonna do when this goes off.

[Rich Paul]

Let me see the final.

[Max Kellerman]

Your clock when this goes off.

[Rich Paul]

See?

[Max Kellerman]

Start. I'll start it right now.

[Rich Paul]

Boom.

[Max Kellerman]

So, Rich, this is what I want to say. And this is coming off.

[Rich Paul]

Just make sure you didn't piss off.

[Max Kellerman]

This is coming off the super bowl and coming off the NFL playoffs. Okay. I want to talk about the difference between science and religion. Okay. I want to start there.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Religion. I had Father Michael.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Theology class. Yep. Who was my science teacher.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm going to have to pull my 5 minute max. Go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. It's okay. It's okay. I was just trying to think of who's my science teacher. But go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

You remember the religious teacher?

[Rich Paul]

I did pass the science part of the proficiency test in eighth grade. At least give me that credit, man.

[Max Kellerman]

So you got it. So religion. And most sports fans are basically religious in their point of view about sports. So what does that mean? Religion has an undisprovable hypothesis. You believe in God. It doesn't matter what evidence you see, this is your belief.

[Rich Paul]

Somebody bring me A pen, because this is. I'm definitely in class today. I need to take some notes.

[Max Kellerman]

This is your belief. It's an undisprovable hypothesis. Nothing anyone could say could talk you out of your core belief. Science is the opposite. People have this sense, I think, that a scientist has a hypothesis and then he tries to prove it. It's the opposite. You have a hypothesis and you try to disprove it, you try to falsify it. That's the scientific process. I am scientific about the way I evaluate sports. I have a hypothesis. I'm hoping usually that it's wrong. Sometimes I do want confirmation bias, but that's usually when I have a good feeling about a player. So how does this apply to the Super Bowl? Let's start. And the NFL playoffs. I had a good feeling about C.J. stroud and Drake May. I did not want that hypothesis to be proven false, that they were clutch players. Now I gather evidence just in the college and pros of CJ Stroud. I saw certain things also with Drake May. I like the cut of their jib. They just gave me the right. Some guys are like that. It doesn't mean you're always right. I felt the same way about Aaron Judge when he was a rising player and he's hit 52 home runs his rookie season and he had some good playoffs early. And I thought, oh, this is a championship type player. And he tore the COVID off the ball these last playoffs. But in high leverage moments throughout his playoff career, he has not been his normal self. I think a guy stands, sets a standard. Can he match it when it matters most at least? Or does he underperform it or overperform it? Right. You don't have to use the word choke necessarily or clutch, but with a K. But does he under or overperform his standard? And too often Aaron Judge has underperformed his standard when it matters most. And that's what I saw from C.J. stroud and Drake May. And so my hypothesis, it doesn't mean it's disproven, but it means there's evidence coming in that has me starting to change my mind. I hope I'm wrong. I felt the same way about Steph Curry. The reason I said I want Iguodala, right, is because I saw too many final performances, by the way. Yes, that's what I'm. It's going to be in my tombstone. But I saw kids come up to me, hey, say I want iguana. Was it I want or give? No, it was I want Iguida.

[Rich Paul]

No, it was Give me Iguana.

[Max Kellerman]

Give me. Was it give me or it's I want.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, it was I want Iguoda.

[Max Kellerman]

It's I want Iguoda.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So. So the reason was I'd seen Steph in too many finals in 2015. Very fortunate. LeBron's, you know, second and third best players weren't playing. And I didn't think he played up quite to his regular season standard in 2016. Clearly not. He was the best player all year. Unanimous MVP when it was finals time. LeBron was clearly better than him and they. And by the way, greatest half court offense, history of basketball. Game seven at home, five minutes to play, not a single point and you're the point guard and supposedly the best player in the league. It didn't give me any pleasure to think about Steph this way. I was. My hypothesis was he was going to come through. It was proven wrong until he eventually proved it wrong again and flipped it in 2022 when he was the best player either side of both teams. Won the championship, won finals, mvp. Great. In other words, I'm not set in my belief where it can't be disproven, but right now. And by the way, this applies to James Harden who proved me wrong. James, go win a championship in Cleveland. Disprove my hypothesis that that style of play can't win or that you can't win a championship. It goes for Luka Doncic. Luka, prove me wrong. I don't think you care enough about defense to be the leader of a team that wins a championship. I don't see it. And plus you're James Harden 2.0 with your style of play. Prove the hypothesis wrong. Falsify it. I want to be wrong. And by the way, I wanted to be right about Stroud and May because I root for these guys. Well, Stroud more than May because May plays for the Patriots. But now my hypothesis is eh, they might underperform under pressure. Prove that wrong, you have a chance. That's the greatest thing about sports is you don't have to be religious about it. You can be a scientist about this stuff and let the evidence change your mind. And 15 minutes on the dot. Come on. That's pretty good timing.

[Rich Paul]

That was great timing. I'll give you your credit there. So which one's science and which one is religious about?

[Max Kellerman]

As applies to who?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm joking. No, listen, I think that's profound and you're right. You don't have to be religious about something. The science Is going to. Eventually it's going to. The results are going to show. But you know, that was one of.

[Max Kellerman]

The problems on First Take, by the way, is that Stephen A's concept of the debate show, and he may be right about it, is that people basically have a religious point of view. I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but this is what the gist of it about sports, you ain't gonna change their minds, right? So instead of trying to disprove the other guy's point and prove, you just stick to your own. Because half the audience is gonna agree. And my way of thinking about it is, I don't know about that. I think you can persuade people if the argument is strong enough over time. But the fact is it is true. Most sports feelings are basically undisprovable. Like people feel the way they feel.

[Rich Paul]

People feel the way they feel. But if someone has an inkling of an open mindedness to see the science within it all and they're actually paying attention to how things is starting to formulate based upon either the production or non production, then I think I told this story, it may change their mind a little bit.

[Max Kellerman]

I think I told this story on this show. There's a school of economics, Keynesian economics, and Keynes was once accused of being a flip flopper. And this may be an apocryphal story. I don't know if this story is.

[Rich Paul]

True, but this is true.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Now wait a minute, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

This is how it's told that he was accused of being a flip flopper and his answer was to the person who accused him was when the evidence changes, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? And that's how I feel about things. I'll be evidence based.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

[Max Kellerman]

That's my whole rant.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, it wasn't bad as I thought it was going to be.

[Max Kellerman]

Why would you assume it's bad?

[Rich Paul]

Well, the rants go either way.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, you have access to a major mastermind.

[Rich Paul]

It's all good. Yeah, you're right.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen, I like the fact that you said that you wouldn't be opposed to. That's how you approach business, by the way, like a scientist, right? Like you wouldn't be opposed to shortening the NBA season even if it meant a short term financial hit. Because your big picture is you want everyone to profit as much as possible. And when you add that all up, sometimes you take one step back to take two forward, basically.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Well, in understanding. No, I wouldn't be. I'm all for the best product. The best product we could put on the floor. If that means that we have to, you know, kind of pivot a little bit while still being able to contractually deliver on our commitment to the brand, partners and things like that, then yeah. But obviously, in business, if it's going to dilute something that we said or we committed to already, then it's such.

[Max Kellerman]

A simple thing and yet such a profound thing when you stick to certain core principles, like what you just said. I'm for the best product.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I'm for the best product.

[Max Kellerman]

Because the core belief is the best product will be best in the long run. This is how Warren Buffet invests. Right. Like, what do you invest in? The thing that makes sense. The thing that has utility in the world. The thing that you can see with the future. Yeah, right. That's. That's what you. That's what. How you should invest. And it's. It's simple. But people who stick to that philosophy seem to do well.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I think, you know, look, we just signed a deal, right? 11 years. So.

[Max Kellerman]

So it's going to be a while.

[Rich Paul]

It's going to be a while. But that doesn't mean that you wait till year 11 to start to plan years. I think so. I think so. I could be wrong, but that doesn't mean you wait. I think every day you're trying to figure things out and adjust things and learn more about yourself, just like anything else. But I do. It's All Star Weekend. It's a good time for what we just talked about. I do think that us as representation, I do think we do need to get in the room at some point and start to have some dialogue and get past the fact that whenever you're competing for the next player, I mean, that's fine. But ultimately, there's a lot of smart people in our business. There's a lot of successful people in our business, but we're not so smart because we've yet to get in a room together and really have a con. And I talk to some of the agents, you know, whether they want to talk to me or not. They do. We do. So I would look forward to that, and I would look forward to being one of the leaders in charge of that. Of that group, for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

I love the move where you start a commission, then put yourself at the head of the commission.

[Rich Paul]

It's a good move. All right, Rich, that's not it.

[Max Kellerman]

No, not it. No. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm backing you.

[Rich Paul]

And by the way, email us about Meyer Lansky.

[Max Kellerman]

Huh?

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail] gameoverpotify.com.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, email us your.

[Rich Paul]

We should get, like, stamps around the criticisms. Hate mail. Do you feel like we should have done All Star Weekend show, like, with the crowd? Is it too early?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, I do. Although I gotta. I have to do Zufa boxing three on the 15th.

[Rich Paul]

No, but what I'm saying is if we wanted to, we could just open it up and invite people to the show.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I see. But we have the space here.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I think we would get people to come or not. But if we opened it up, just.

[Max Kellerman]

Fill it with clutch clients. We'll have the All Star roster. The All Star Game right here. We can play it right here.

[Rich Paul]

You ever seen the All Star schedule for a player?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Rich Paul]

They have no time for you, for their family, for nobody. It is insane. Insane. People think the All Star Weekend is like a hangout. Just let me tell you, it's a.

[Max Kellerman]

Hangout for everyone else.

[Rich Paul]

The All Star weekend is work. Definitely. For a player, definitely. For me, it's work. Like everyone. Sorry.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone feels very sorry for you.

[Rich Paul]

I've been to All Star Weekend, Max, as just someone who is, like, just supporting the Weeknd, hanging out.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You have all the hours in the day.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You're planning this, you're in the party, get a nap, you're going to parties, etc. When you on the other side. It is gruesome.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. But listen, you need good partners. Got to be good partners.

[Rich Paul]

But. But I will say All Star Weekend free agency. We need these things.

[Max Kellerman]

It's another reason, by the way, listen, we got to wrap this up. But that's another. Another reason is free agency has been frozen in many respects by the aprons and everything. So teams tank. Like, teams are kind of. When you say position in the draft, you're kind of stuck. You need a draft pick. It's hard to get free agents nowadays.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. There's a lot of.

[Max Kellerman]

They need to loosen up certain rules around player movement if you want teams to focus less on the draft. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Another reason why the agents should get in the room and have the conversation.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, I solved the tanking problem.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Loosen up the free agency rules.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think we all want that. Yes, we all want that, but that's enough. But no, no one's getting in the room and talking about it. Sometimes you have these, these, these lead calls and all the agents are on and, you know, people say things and there's some pretty profound suggestions for sure, but I would like to see us get in the room more.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what show we're in now, what this is. Well, we call this overtime. I guess sometimes we go. But you know what else? This is the time on Howard Stern's show. My mother used to listen to it. Having it on in the kitchen got me big fans from the time I'm 13 or something. Howard was supposed to be done at 11, or was it 10? But. And he would go an extra 20 minutes, but they'd be wrapping up. Okay, we're out of here. And you would think that the show's over. Then they would get into an interesting conversation and go another 20 minutes.

[Rich Paul]

Well, no, but the show is over. But I'm just saying I would like to see that. So. All right.

[Max Kellerman]

So that's it. So that's the part of the Howard Stern show is now over?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. The part of the Howard Stern show, though, right? I rock with Howard Stern, though.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, the unbelievable, greatest radio guy of all time.

[Rich Paul]

Unbelievable. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Came over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Please subscribe. Please email [e-mail] and who makes that sweater? I don't even know. I see. You know what, Max? I'm proud of you, man. Thank you very much. You're on your New Balance kick lately. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Comfortable.

[Max Kellerman]

I got flat feet. They have the arch supports.

[Rich Paul]

Come on over. It's okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Just come on over.

[Rich Paul]

But listen, listen, we know. We know. We get it. Yeah, we get it.

[Max Kellerman]

You sent me that. You sent me the pair of the rps.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, the comparability.

[Max Kellerman]

He has his own.

[Rich Paul]

The comparability has gotten you.

[Max Kellerman]

Is it a signature shoe? Are you a signature shoe athlete?

[Rich Paul]

I don't think so. I'm a heat guy.

[Max Kellerman]

You have an rp. You have. You sent me a couple considered a signature shoe. Rp, New Balance. Very comfortable.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I own that, but comfortable, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Very good. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So good. Yeah, Yeah, I like it. I don't even have those, but it's all good. All right, well, now I know what.

[Max Kellerman]

To get you for your next birthday.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I don't think I need you to get me the New Balance, Max. That is ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it's cheaper than a Laurel piano sweater.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I mean, you don't have to go that either, but if you. If. I mean, you know, some guys have great taste. Yeah, you're one of them.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, thank you very much. All right.

[Rich Paul]

All right. Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

Friday, yeah. Game over.

[Rich Paul]

Don't miss it Happy all of sorts. Our weekend let's go.

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