Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: NBA Tanking, Pat Riley’s Mindset, and Science vs. Religion
Date: February 11, 2026
Host: The Ringer
Co-hosts: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the state of the NBA—specifically tanking and "positioning" for future drafts, the perennial challenge of maintaining competitiveness and integrity in the regular season, the evolution of "Heat Culture" under Pat Riley, and a wide-ranging discussion about how science and religion relate to sports fandom. Max and Rich mix insider perspectives, passion for sports history, and big-picture thinking on business, leadership, and league evolution.

Main Topics & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Tone: Email Feedback & Show Structure

(01:08 – 05:14)

• Max and Rich introduce a new email for listener questions: gameover@spotify.com
• Light banter about personal style, specifically Cartier glasses vs. Ray-Bans.
  • Rich: "I'm not really like a glasses guy, but it's just certain looks. And today this was the look." [04:56]
• Commitment to listener engagement and show-building based on audience questions.

2. The Most Important Piece in NBA Team Building

(02:18 – 04:14)

• Max: In the NBA, your best player is the key to contention, even more than the coach or GM.
  • "The most important thing to your franchise that leads to success... in the NBA is your best player." [02:39]
• Discussion of Jaylen Brown’s MVP candidacy and defense.
  • Rich: "Everything that Jaylen Brown has done this year, from leadership to point production to playing the defensive side of the ball, the team is second in the East." [03:38]

3. Deep Dive: NBA Tanking, Positioning, and Team Strategy

(07:42 – 21:10)

The Tanking Question

• Max asserts tanking is perennially problematic in the NBA, particularly apparent given the depth of the current draft.
• Max: "I believe tanking is a problem in the NBA, per se... But this draft is so deep." [08:18]

Rich Paul’s Reframe: Positioning, Not Tanking

• Rich reframes tanking as "positioning"—thoughtful, long-term strategy, not a subversion of league integrity.
  • "I don't think there's tanking going on. No tanking, No. I think it's called positioning." [09:17]
  • Teams like the Jazz aren't tanking; they're investing: acquiring assets, hiring strong front-office talent, and developing culture.

Draft Incentives and Team Building

• Max: The league’s big incentive problem is that the best way to acquire star talent is in the draft, which can trigger teams to lose intentionally.
  • "You want to put four quarters together for the dollar... if a team feels like we don't have one of those dudes... they're highly incentivized to find it in the draft." [12:28]
• Counterpoint by Rich: The lottery system means no guarantees—teams can be strategic but can't control outcomes.
  • "You can go 0 and 82 and still not get the number one pick." [14:25]
  • Emphasis on needing the right organizational structure, not just high draft picks.

Historical Draft Lessons

• Discussion of the Carmelo Anthony/Detroit Pistons draft and its impact on legacies.
  • Rich: "That's one of the people I would love to see win a champion... He would have gotten it [if drafted to Detroit]." [17:43]

Load Management, Incentives, and the Regular Season Dilemma

• Impact of load management (sitting marquee players), and resulting fan/TV dissatisfaction.
• Max: "The league wants all the teams to be competing all the time because they're selling those regular season games to the fans." [13:59]
• Regular season under threat from diluted games and unclear incentives.

4. Fixing the NBA Product: Shorter Seasons, Better Partnership, and Leadership

(21:42 – 29:26)

Fewer Games? Players and Agents Respond

• Max floats shortening the NBA season: “The NBA probably would be helped by shortening the season.” [22:37]
• Rich is open: "I wouldn't be against shrinking the schedule at all... We’ve seen the product of a shorter season." [23:40]
  • Notes COVID-shortened seasons had positives for players and teams.
  • Acknowledges need to balance broadcast contracts and financial impact.

The Bigger Picture: Partnership & Long-Term Thinking

• Emphasis on the crucial role of leadership in taking long-term sacrifices for later gains.
  • Max: “You're talking about leadership and special leadership... Do we want to compete with the NFL... or... be shrinking?" [26:28]
• Rich highlights Adam Silver’s proactive leadership; stresses need for partnership between league, players, and representatives.

5. Agent Power and Representation

(30:15 – 34:12)

• Max analogizes agent collaboration to the mafia’s organization of the syndicate—"Who would be at the head of this agent board?"
• Rich would be "one of the chairmen" if such a steering group existed.
  • "If that's how they seen it. Yeah." [34:05]
• The importance of agents uniting to advocate for long-range league health, not just client-by-client wins.

6. Media, Revenue, and Global Growth

(34:29 – 37:57)

• Rich: Understanding the media landscape and global market is vital to league growth.
  • "When you complain about certain things, you have to understand the why... Amazon and YouTube are now the biggest spenders on sports media ad dollars." [35:23]
• Points to international expansion as a path similar to global soccer leagues.

7. Revisiting Tanking, Load Management, and Solutions

(37:57 – 41:44)

• Max reiterates: tanking and load management are ongoing problems tied to season length and incentives.
• Rich: Load management is tolerable if “monitored and managed,” gives credit to Spurs for introducing it with integrity.
  • "I think load management is okay as long as we monitor it. And manage it.” [38:51]

8. Pat Riley, Heat Culture, and Adapting

(39:44 – 46:13)

Pat Riley’s Mindset

• Max cites Riley’s openness about having to "adapt" to the modern game, admiring his competitive nature.
  • Max: "There's something so honest about the way Pat Riley competes... he tries to go get the best players he can." [40:46]

Rich Breaks Down Heat Culture

• Details Riley’s shrewd roster building with “competitive, undistracted” players like Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway.

  • "Lonzo Morning played for John Thompson... you put that pillow in your culture... that's going to have accountability." [41:30]

• Adapting to youth basketball changes: Greater manipulation of development paths, lowering of tolerance for adversity, and effects at NBA level.

  • "Every issue that we're having in the NBA is starting in youth schools." [45:42]

• Using "Pat Riley" as a verb for being held accountable and coached hard.

9. Science vs. Religion in Sports Fandom

(47:33 – 55:08)

• Max, in his “5 Minute Max” segment, draws parallels between fans' religious adherence to beliefs ("undisprovable hypotheses") vs. the scientific method (evidence-based, open to change).
  • "I am scientific about the way I evaluate sports. I have a hypothesis. I'm hoping usually that it's wrong..." [48:50]
• Uses CJ Stroud, Steph Curry, Aaron Judge, and James Harden as examples of how new evidence can confirm or challenge prior beliefs.
• Rich agrees, emphasizing the virtue of openness to evidence: "The science... the results are going to show." [53:13]
• Max references Keynes: "When the evidence changes, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" [54:51]

10. Product Quality, the 'Best Product' Principle, and League Strategy

(55:23 – 58:12)

• Rich: Always focus on delivering the best product, even if it requires short-term sacrifice.
  • "I'm for the best product. Because the core belief is the best product will be best in the long run." [56:32]
• Advocates for proactive planning even under long-term contracts and bringing agents together for the good of the NBA ecosystem.

11. Loosening Free Agency to Solve Tanking

(60:07 – 61:02)

• Max: "Loosen up the free agency rules." [60:36]
• Rich: Agent collaboration is needed to push this solution forward.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rich Paul on "positioning" vs. tanking [09:17]

  "I don't think there's tanking going on. No tanking, No. I think it's called positioning."

• Max on NBA value structure [02:39]

  "The most important thing to your franchise...is your best player."

• Rich on Pat Riley [40:58]

  "There's no one more competitive than Pat Riley. The man doesn't have to do what he's doing. He's doing it because he's a competitor."

• Rich on culture and youth basketball [45:42]

  "Every issue that we're having in the NBA is starting in youth schools."

• Max on science and sports beliefs [48:50]

  "I am scientific about the way I evaluate sports. I have a hypothesis. I'm hoping usually that it's wrong."

• Rich on best product principle [56:32]

  "I'm for the best product. Because the core belief is the best product will be best in the long run."

• Max's punchline [60:36]

  "Rich, I solved the tanking problem. Loosen up the free agency rules."

Segment Timestamps

| Time | Segment / Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:08 | Show banter, audience email, Cartiers vs. aviators | | 02:18 | NBA priorities: star player vs. coach/GM | | 03:32 | Jaylen Brown MVP conversation | | 07:42 | Focus on NBA tanking, "positioning" argument | | 12:28 | Draft incentives and team-building philosophy | | 21:42 | Challenges of the regular season, shortening schedule discussion | | 26:28 | Leadership and long-term thinking in league management | | 30:15 | Agent collaboration and potential union | | 34:29 | Global marketing, media, and Amazon/YouTube's influence | | 37:57 | Load management, regular season "issues", Spurs model | | 39:44 | Pat Riley’s mindset, Heat culture, adapting to new talent | | 47:33 | "5 Minute Max": Science vs. Religion in sports belief | | 55:23 | Delivering the best product principle | | 60:07 | Loosening free agency as a solution to tanking | | 62:09 | Closing banter about All-Star Weekend, New Balance shoes |

Tone & Takeaways

• Blend of humor and depth: Banter about glasses and style eases into serious, industry-insider perspectives.
• Rich Paul brings a pragmatic, player/agent-focused response to perennial NBA problems—he's all about strategy over cynicism.
• Max Kellerman pushes for evidence-based debate, challenges guests and listeners to critically examine their sports beliefs, and isn't afraid to point out systemic flaws.
• Both hosts agree: The NBA's future depends on long-term, collaborative planning, not just short-term wins.

For Listeners Who Missed the Show

This episode explores the NBA’s notorious tanking/positioning phenomenon, how league and team incentives shape the regular season, why Pat Riley’s culture-building still matters, and what real long-term leadership looks like in sports and business. The science vs. religion segment encourages evidence-based fandom over pure loyalty. Listeners gain a unique inside view on both the business and ethical sides of modern professional basketball.