← Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
NFL Coaching and QB Legacies. Plus, NBA Team Building and an Eras Debate.
01:26:35
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- [00:00]
A
Abercrombie knows how denim should fit and feel. And this year is about curating a denim collection that carries your closet head straight to Abercrombie's baggy and ultra baggy fits. These are the pairs that turn any tee or shirt into a full outfit. All of their jeans come in classic fit with select jeans available in athletic fit designed for guys who want more room in the thigh shop. Abercrombie Denim in the app, online and in stores. Rich. Big day.
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B
Big day.
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A
Netflix debut.
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B
Yeah. Is that why you dress so nice?
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A
I mean, I dress nice every day.
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B
You do, but this is. No, but this is.
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A
Yeah.
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B
A little bit extra.
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A
You put a little bit.
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B
This is like. You added truffles.
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A
Yeah, a little bit.
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B
Yeah. This.
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A
Listen, you know, I was on. I remember the first time I was ever on hbo, because back then there was a slogan, it's not just tv, it's hbo. And I bought into that. I thought everything HBO did was better than everything else. And nowadays that's Netflix to me.
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B
I've been a supporter. Authentic supporter. True supporter.
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A
No, no. I remember, like. So I did the Canelo and Crawford fight on Netflix, and now this is on Netflix. I was there, and it has the same feeling to me. Back. I guess this was going back 20 years. When I started at HBO. I was like, mama, I made it. You know what I mean?
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B
Yeah. Listen, shout out to Bella and Ted. This is gonna be great for us. I'm excited for Netflix. I really am.
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A
For sure.
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B
What better platform, right?
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A
Speaking of which, did you see the Golden Globes last night? And I didn't. I know you did.
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B
Of course I did. Our colleagues of the ringer.
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A
Yeah, look at that.
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B
She won the broadcast. We gotta get. Listen, we got work to do.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because we can win a Golden Globe. Oh, they're recognizing. She won for a podcast. What you thought she won for. They're recognizing podcasts.
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A
We have to start with, like, the Bronze Globe, maybe. Then we get up to Silver, and then we get up.
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B
They can give us a paper globe for all I care.
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A
Just a globe of any kind. As long as.
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B
Let's just work our way there.
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A
Yeah. Sphere. Yeah, Anything spherical is good.
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B
She just seems super, super cool. She seems super dope. I never met her. You ever met her?
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A
No, but I almost once rented her apartment. Amy Polish. Yeah, I believe. I believe so. I believe it was hers in on Downtown.
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B
Don't say where it's from. New York.
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A
No, no, I'm not going West Village. Back in the day, I was going. Or maybe she Was selling it or renting. I forgot. But I took a look at it.
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B
But it probably was one of many, so.
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A
Yeah, right.
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B
For security purposes.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Don't see where it's at. But yeah, the Golden Goblets was cool. I didn't like shutting down the traffic. I couldn't get to my golf course. But that's okay.
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A
Yeah, you really got it. You got bit by the golf bug. How long has this been going on?
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B
Not long enough.
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A
Right?
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B
That's okay. But weekend was good. That was great. But I'm really. I did have a down part in my later week, which is Sesame street. Pbs.
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A
Oh, yeah, that's getting rid of it. Yeah. Cutting funding for public television because one political party doesn't like it.
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B
That's how it is, Max. It just brought back memories. I don't know. Who was your favorite Sesame street character.
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A
When I was a kid? You don't have to just get one. No, no. When you was a kid. When I was a kid, I loved the Count.
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B
The Count was great.
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A
Yeah, I loved the Count, but when I got older, it's Cookie Monster all day. Cookie Monster's like, hilarious. And Bert Ernie.
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B
Everyone always knows Bert Ernie, but they're like. Yeah, they're nostalgic.
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A
How about you?
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B
You know, mine's actually varied. Really? Cause mine's. I like the Count, too, but then Oscar the Grouch.
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A
Oh, yeah. Pardon me. Oscar's also. When I was a kid, it was the Count and Oscar. Yeah, and Oscar is still there.
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B
But it was just so many great characters on Sesame Street. And the beauty of it is you actually learned something that was the beginning of making it very entertaining for a kid to stay locked in and actually learn something.
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A
You could also argue.
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B
Now, I don't know what kids are.
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A
Learning on this, but you could also argue it was the beginning of the end in the sense that they figured out that kids learn better in short clips.
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B
Yes.
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A
Right. So that kept us glued to the tv. So when you think about it in retrospect, MTV is a natural outgrowth of sesame street. Because 10 years later, like, I'm watching Sesame Street, I'm two, three years old, whatever it is. 10 years later, I'm 12 or 13, whatever. And there's MTV, where you're just sitting through these three minute videos. Everything's chopped up. And what's the natural outgrowth from that is like, eventually you get to reels on Instagram or TikTok, and now our attention spans are gone completely.
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B
You know, Max, that's a very smart take. That is A very smart perspective. I don't have anything to say after that because I don't want to. That is a very smart take for you.
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A
I thought you were setting me up for something.
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B
No, I'm dead serious. That is a very smart take.
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A
Oh, well, thank you very much.
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B
And you're right. All right. You ready to start the show?
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A
Ready. Let's do it.
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B
Yeah. Let's do it.
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A
Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenectic. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.
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B
Please subscribe.
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A
There it is. I can't. Like, there was so much. Great. We got a lot to get into today, obviously. And there's NBA stuff. There was so much.
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B
Can we do it under an hour and 45 minutes? Cause how about one hour? I got a full Zoom schedule.
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A
I know what we gotta do. We're gonna. We're gonna put. When we get to the new studio, we'll put a clock up.
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B
Okay.
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A
And an hour will be the show if we go past an hour in overtime.
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B
Cause, you know, people always ask, how do you do this? How do you do that? I'm like, it's all about scheduling. And so my office is really like, rich Mondays.
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A
But you're the boss. That's the beauty of being the boss. You make your own schedule.
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B
Yes, but when you're the boss, you still have to listen to others. You can't just do whatever you want to do.
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A
So these football games, Rich, some of them, like, most of them were so good. They kind of blend into each. It's like a blur. The whole NFL weekend was a blur. But we could start with, I think what's top of mind now are the Eagles were eliminated, the defending champs, by a Niners team that should have no business eliminating them. Like, I'm looking at the difference between Shanahan and Sirianni in that game. I'm looking at the coaches. Shanahan, all his best defensive players are gone. They're out, and then he loses his best receiving target on offense. He loses Kittle, who's a future hall of Fame tight end. And they still figure it out. And you look on the other side, Sirianni and the Eagles, what's really the issue structurally with the team, whatever else is going on, the offensive line is not the same. The center underperformed. The guard underperformed on the right side. You know, like, Lane Johnson wasn't there. Whenever he doesn't play. The team has not been the same throughout his whole career, even though they still had a running game because of Saquon. But, like, the line underperforms, and that could be the difference, but the difference is one team dealing with that couldn't make the adjustments and overcome it. Sirianni and the Niners could because of. Because of Shanahan. And I thought that was, like, that was my biggest takeaway from the game, you know, the coaching difference.
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B
Yeah, but I don't. I don't. I didn't think it was the coaching difference. I think it was more so about one team was together, the other team wasn't. As far as coach. Not. Not necessarily. You can't make guys like each other. You just can't. And I think when the Seahawks beat the 49ers last week, the 49ers didn't put their head down. I saw nobody blaming each other. You actually saw their coach get up on the podium and say, we'll be ready next week. Going on the road, I'm confident. And so Shanahan and his group, they get there, and you can tell that that defense, whether they undermand or not, they played together. The other group, the Eagles, to be honest, they haven't been together all year.
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A
That's true.
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B
And you cannot win a championship without being together.
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A
I mean, do you think so? Let's staying on that theme for a second. So my dad's a shrink, right? So I'm always looking at the. Like, what's going on underneath it psychologically. Right. That's the most drops. I want to say. On third down, they had four drops. Receivers on third down, that's the most drops in. What was the stat? I think Adam Schefter had it. It was like 19 years, almost 20 years. And when I see receivers, like, what's the difference in those situations between holding onto that ball and dropping it? Keyshawn Johnson used to say on the radio to me all the time, he's like, man, you're dropping Bentleys. You know, anytime you see a receiver drop a ball, you Just drop the Bentley. Right. But in the playoffs, in a close game. So I always think when you see something excessive like that, not just one or two drops, four drops on third down, that, to me, speaks to what you're talking about. Like, I. But do you subscribe to that, or is that a stretch? Cause I feel like that's a real thing when you don't drop four balls on third down. If the team is playing for each other.
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B
Exactly. If you're going into any game. First of all, they won super bowl last year.
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A
Right.
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B
So it's even harder to climb back up that mountain because the feel that you have after winning, you know, you accomplished this already. And so you have to really be obsessed to want to go back and do this again, because the climb is even tougher. And I already won, so what am I gonna actually feel again? Like, you have to be somewhat, you know, psycho in that case. And then when you add the fact that they're not together, they haven't been together all year, you know, whoever you want to blame for that.
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A
Well, people are blaming Petullo. Like, they hate Eagles. Fans hate Petullo. And by the way, as an offensive coordinator, like, people are criticizing things that are legitimate.
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B
Yeah. But regardless, there's no togetherness. And as you know, on a regular season Sunday, it's hard to win an NFL game from a playoff.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Game. And not be together.
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A
I have one other big coach kind of point I wanted to make from this last NFL weekend. As I said, like, it all bleeds together. There were so many great moments. The NFL is on fire right now. Like, the product is incredible.
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B
Are you talking about.
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A
No, I'm talking about packers and Bears.
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B
Oh.
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A
Oh, okay. Just because it's a coach theme.
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B
I was hoping it was something different.
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A
I look at Ben Johnson and, like, versus LaFleur. Right. And everyone loving Ben Johnson right now. And LaFleur is going to lose his job, maybe because.
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B
No, he's not.
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A
Well, he's on the last year of his deal. People don't like what he did in that playoff game. And is he going to be a lame duck coach going forward? Would they extend him? So I think there's a good chance he actually does, whether or not you agree with that. Huh.
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B
Should they go after hardball? I hope not.
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A
But what's interesting to me about the coaching in that game is lafleur's getting killed because they have this lead. And. And what do you do when you have a lead in the second half of an NFL playoff game? You run the ball you chew clock. And he kept throwing the ball and it wound up backfiring. What bothers me about that is now would I subscribe to doing what he did? No, I like, you know, I grew up watching Bill Parcells and the Giants. You would not do that. Cardinal sin. But let's say they did that and it worked, right? Then everyone's like, oh, he stayed aggressive and this and that. They only use it as an example of why they don't like him when it doesn't work. And this is kind of a larger issue for me about analytics. When people kill analytics as a tool, it's not everything, but it is a useful tool. What they're really saying is because the analytics look at all the times that happened, and they start to look at percentages when it's successful and it's not successful. And let's say the analytics say it's 51% successful, 49% not successful. Right. People will still take one of the instances where it's not successful and say, see, it doesn't work. Ignoring all the other times it does work. In other words, oh, analytics sucks. But my analytics are good. These are the actual analytics. I will simply selectively perceive when it doesn't work and say, see, that proves what I'm saying. Now, I'm not defending passing and passing and passing in that situation, but it didn't work for LaFleur. But by the way, Ben Johnson went for it on fourth down a bunch of early in the game, and it backfired. Right. The difference was he has Caleb Williams. That's really the difference in the game. Right. Or else no one's killing LaFleur right now and everyone's killing Ben Johnson.
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B
Yeah. My thing is, why can't we just give the Bears credit? The Bears was down big. Yeah. They went in, they regrouped, they made big plays. Ben Johnson is an offensive genius, but that doesn't. LaFleur can be a really good coach, which he is. And Ben Johnson can still be an offensive genius and a really good head coach, which he's becoming, or he has became, at least in this one year. He's turned it around for the Bears. We'll see.
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A
Well, McVay is an offensive genius. Like, you gotta wait. You gotta hold. You know, they gotta see it, you know. Yeah.
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B
I'm saying we still have to see it. But as it pertains to this year, the excitement in that stadium from that Bears crowd, you know, it's freezing to be down for that team, not to even be in this position before and to show resilience and come back and win. Let's just give the Bears their credit.
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A
It's Caleb. The thing about Caleb is, I'm saying.
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B
Led by Caleb Williams, no question.
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A
He comes out of college and you look at him and you go size and speed and look at the arm and all that stuff, right? And he does all the big things well and he has to still iron out the little things because his completion percentage isn't high enough in all this. But more than anything, Rich, when I see Caleb Williams, I'm not even talking about the locker room after the game when, remember I was talking about, I think it was Mendoza and I said, he has a good personality. You said, what do you mean? Yeah, there are some athletes, and I used a rod as an example in his playing days. I think Cam Newton falls into this category. What they really wanted to say, it seemed to me from a distance, just watching them was different. They thought it was different than what people wanted to hear. So being in a position of leadership, they might get up at the podium and you see them pause or hesitate or sound a little bit insincere at times because they know, okay, in my position, I'm really not supposed to say what I really want to say here, right?
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B
Yeah, but that's not a wrong position to take.
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A
No, it just is what it is, right?
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B
It's calculation.
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A
A dude like Caleb Williams gets up there and he says it with his whole chest and he means it like he's the football fan's dream of what they want their quarterback to be. He drank the Kool Aid. He believes the stuff he's saying right way back and now he's gonna give it to you like a quarterback. He's gonna spit it out and you know, it's authentic. Cuz he believes what he's saying. That quality to me is why I'm completely unsurprised when that tool, the big arm is, is put into service late in the game the way it is, like he's able to execute those things not only because he has the physical ability, but because he has that thing inside him.
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B
You know, I have to give him credit because that's consistent. Did you see his tweet back to Lil Wayne?
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A
Yeah.
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B
And as we know, Wayne is the biggest packers fan. He was heated, as he always is when the packers don't win. And I thought Caleb's tweet was very interesting. But I also think Wayne, knowing him would respect that. Right. Because the competitor, he's showing that, yeah, we did that. And showing the football with the whole.
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A
Side conversation about Lil Wayne is there are only a handful of MCs who don't have to worry about the opportunity of a rhyme to say. Like, people like Kanye as an emcee. Right? Just as an emcee, I'm always like, okay. But you could hear when there was an opportunity for a rhyme in what he was writing and he took it. And now what he's saying isn't exactly what he meant. He's off on a tangent. And there are other MCs. Jay is like this. Wayne is like this. They are the master of the words. The words do exactly what they want them to do. So Wayne is like. It's like a version of what I said about Caleb Woods. Like, he's. It's different.
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B
He's been that since he was 14.
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A
Yeah, he's different.
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B
Do you know when he was really young, he couldn't curse? You probably never paid attention to that. He never. When he was really young, he didn't curse, but he did have this one song on the album. It was called F the World. But he says it in the hook. I don't curse, but it is the first man the world. But like, if you go back to his verses prior to that, when he was really young, he never cursed.
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A
So it forces you to.
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B
Well, just that talent level, like, you're talking about his ability to direct the words. In addition to that, imagine being able to express your. Expressing yourself probably helped in a way, in a hip hop form without having to be showed that aggression. Because a curse word while rapping is really an easy way out.
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A
Well, it's almost like. I know we're off on a tangent now, but like, if I grew up listening to Howard Stern on the radio. Cause my mother always had it on in the kitchen in the morning. And sometimes like a restraint or a constraint makes you better. Like, if you're on broadcast radio, there's lots of stuff you can't do. So in order to get away with doing it, it forces you to be creative. So maybe it made him better as an emcee.
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B
Maybe it did.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But pull back up on the NFL.
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A
Yeah. Caleb. Caleb is that dude. And like, the Bears are alive to win the super bowl because of him.
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B
Listen, I'm so happy for the Bears. I keep telling you, one of my favorite people, his name is Kevin Warren. He's the president of the Bears. They hired him. And everything he does comes with taste and class. And he's not going to lose in terms of. He can't guarantee they win the Super Bowl.
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A
But he's gonna run a successful program.
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B
But he's gonna run a successful program. There's no question about it.
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A
Football is better when the Bears are good.
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B
Yes.
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A
And it's unbelievable that, like, this is how much that town cares about football. I remember an SNL skit way back in the day. Remember? Dub Bears, that whole thing. And I remember once Jordan, MJ was hosting snl. So now it's nice. And by the way, he's in the middle of winning six chips for this city. And the Bears won in 85 and nothing since then. Right. This is years later already. And the point was that if it was between Mike Ditka and Michael Jordan, they couldn't choose because they loved them both so much. One super bowl versus chips. And Ditka, you know, they carry the D coordinator off the field. They carry Ryan off the field on their shoulders because it was as much the defensive coordinator's team as it was the head coach's team. And yet you still take the head coach next to MJ together, you can't decide.
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B
Mike Dickel was a celebrity.
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A
That's how much that town cares about football. What have the bears done since 85? Right. The league would be so much better if they are a powerhouse. If Caleb Williams has a great and long career.
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B
Yeah. And I need that Bears jacket with the Bears across the front.
- [20:39]
A
Which one?
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B
The navy blue one.
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A
Oh, the navy blue one. Yeah.
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B
And by the way, it'll be the same for my Browns if they was to win. We have to rebuild the city of Cleveland. Although the Cavs just won in 2016 and it was, what, 1.5, 1.7 million people out there?
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A
You're texting me stuff about how Harbaugh's considering Cleveland.
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B
You see that?
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A
Do you see the poly market, what the odds are, where he's going to wind up?
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B
I don't see it.
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A
63% to the Giants, last I checked.
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B
And that's why when you bet, you lose.
- [21:08]
A
I felt bad for Justin Herbert last night, man. Well, he was on his, like, the shots he was taking. Yeah, Rich, one of the. Like lt. I grew up watching lt. Whatever. But one of the reasons people in New York love lt. It's not just that I think he's the greatest defense. I think he's the greatest football player ever, in his prime. But the hits he laid on people looked different. They were laid out. Justin Herbert was taking LT shots last night. Don't pause me. I understand there's no way to talk about sports without getting Paused. I don't like this whole pause thing anyway.
- [21:45]
B
That was crazy.
- [21:47]
A
Yeah, crazy.
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B
I can't even repeat that.
- [21:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
But it's okay. But you know it's not okay.
- [21:53]
A
I know, I know.
- [21:53]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
- [21:54]
A
But I mean make your point though. I'm 52 years old. I don't have time.
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B
I get it.
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A
I don't worry about.
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B
I don't even. I don't even. I don't even play it. Yeah, yeah, but it just.
- [22:01]
A
It just pops out at you. Cause it's in the culture, right? Yeah. But anyway, he was taking shots flat on his back, like clearly hurt all game. The Chargers had no chance. And I feel bad for Justin Herbert, man, that is. That is crazy. The types of licks he was taking.
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B
It's tough. I mean, and obviously that's football, right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
But my thing is, is it time for us to start considering Drake May a top five quarterback in the NFL?
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A
At the end he's in the running for mvp. He's going to finish top three mvp. It's going to be Allen, Stafford and May in some order.
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B
But Max, is it time for us, Is it too soon for us to start considering Drake May as a top five quarterback in NFL?
- [22:48]
A
Not to start considering? No. I don't know if I put him in my top five to consider.
- [22:52]
B
He is to say that he is.
- [22:56]
A
I mean, Mahomes isn't playing right now. We'll have to see what he looks like after the injury. Lamar is hurt right now. Didn't look the same. Although he was great in the playoff game. Stafford and Allen already talked about Burrow when he's healthy.
- [23:13]
B
Okay, let me actually. Let me reframe it. The next three years in the NFL.
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A
Yeah. Good. Hell of a shot that May is a top three to five quarterback.
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B
No, no, that's not what I was going to ask you. Will he surpass any of the quarterbacks that you once considered?
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A
No doubt.
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B
Top five.
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A
I think he already did it.
- [23:33]
B
Burrow Jackson.
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A
Look, he's got the coach and he's only in his second year and he already looks like this.
- [23:45]
B
And Raybo's doing a hell of a job.
- [23:47]
A
A hell of a job.
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B
He's doing a hell of a job.
- [23:49]
A
And then the only other thing I want and we can move on to NBA. But I gotta talk about Matthew Stafford for a second. That was a closer game than it should have been. And all of that and Stafford and the reason it is cause Stafford hits his hand on the Panthers player's helmet and once he hits his Hand his game goes sideways in the second half until the fourth quarter. And you know who Stafford reminds me of? If I were a boxing trainer and I had a fighter who was fighting Evander Holyfield, what I would tell him and dead ass, I would tell him this, don't hurt him. Box Holyfield, try to beat him, don't try to hurt him. Because what would happen when Holyfield got shook up?
- [24:29]
B
The warrior comes out of him the.
- [24:31]
A
Same thing every time. He would grit his teeth, you'd see his mouthpiece and he would. And immediately five left hooks. Ha ha ha. And then you were going to have. Maybe you could still beat him, but. But now you have to walk through hell to do it.
- [24:44]
B
Now you have to fight. Now you have to fight to walk.
- [24:47]
A
Through hell to get him. I think they would have. The Panthers would have been better off with a field goal lead at the end of that game. And then maybe they wind up in overtime. But the fact that Stafford needed a touchdown, a field goal wasn't going to do it was the worst thing that could have happened to the Panthers.
- [25:02]
B
He's a warrior.
- [25:03]
A
That dude is unreal.
- [25:04]
B
He's a warrior.
- [25:06]
A
Stafford is. I'm so glad for him because had he stayed where he was in Detroit, it had been like, well, he had arm talent but he couldn't win. And da da da da da. And now he's writing his own script. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again.
- [25:20]
B
But if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.
- [25:32]
A
What do you have to lose?
- [25:34]
B
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Limited time, 50%.
- [25:38]
A
Off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan. Taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. Okay, so let me. I want to run through. I have one kind of like big NFL take I want to do for you. Okay. I want everyone to stop and then, and then we can move on. I want everyone to stop and think for a second. We're always, you know, we're in the middle of these playoffs and, and one of, and I've said this before on the pod, but one of the most interesting moments to me in sports is when public perception changes, but no one talks about it. People aren't Even aware that it actually changed in that moment. Like I'll give you an example, another boxing example. Mike Tyson fought this guy, Francois Botha, knocked him out in the fifth round with one right hand. But in that fight, everyone's perception changed and no one talked about it. Like, going into that fight, Mike would have been the favorite against anyone who ever lived. Even though he'd already lost. But he left such an impression on people that he'd have been bet into the favorite no matter who he ever fought. After that fight, for the first time, he'd have been the underdog. The perception of him shifted. Cause Bota was up in the fight when he got knocked out. Bota's outboxing Mike Tyson, right? He's not like that. These moments when perception changes, but no one really talks about it. There's no Mahomes in these playoffs, right? What's the stat between Brady and Mahomes and Peyton Manning? It's been a billion years since none of them were in the Super Bowl. Something like that. Think about what's about to happen to one of these quarterbacks. Just stop and think for a second about what's about to happen to your perception about these quarterbacks. If Josh Allen wins the super bowl this year.
- [27:21]
B
Wow.
- [27:22]
A
He goes from. Here's what's crazy.
- [27:24]
B
Life changing. So life changing for him.
- [27:26]
A
Because his talent is so off the charts that when the eyeball test, like the super bowl results match the eyeball test. They shouldn't have won that game yesterday. He had to be Superman, right? Justin Herbert couldn't do it. Josh Allen could. All these. Everyone's like, well, you can't blame a quarterback if he's not in the right situation and he's getting hit. Make your own luck. Let your talent overcome that stuff. It is very rare that that can happen. LeBron James dragged the team to the finals. Shouldn't have been in the finals. So did AI Allen. Iverson dragged a team to the finals that had no business in the Finals. That's amazing that they could do that. Not everyone could.
- [28:05]
B
And won a game.
- [28:05]
A
And won a game for the undefeated Lakers on the road, right? Kobe, Shaq, Lakers. Oh my God. Allen Iverson, Josh Allen. If he even gets there. But if he wins the super bowl on a team with no run defense and no receivers, he will immediately be put into the uppermost echelon of quarterbacks who ever lived. Because the talent is so obvious. Right now you have the result if Drake may wins the Super Bowl. It's like early Tom Brady dynasty. You got the Coach, you got the quarterback, Tom Brady on wheels, right? He's smart, he's a winner, he's big on third down.
- [28:46]
B
It would put him on that Mahomes trajectory if he won this early in his career and then was able to.
- [28:55]
A
We think, hey, he's in the beginning of a Hall of Fame career.
- [28:57]
B
Yes, yes, we would.
- [28:59]
A
If Bo Nix wins the super bowl, if the Broncos win the super bowl, all of a sudden it goes from, I like the Broncos defense, I like their head coach. The question is the quarterback, can you win with that quarterback? If Bo Nix wins the super bowl, your whole perception of, of him and the Broncos will change forever.
- [29:18]
B
If Bo Nicks win the super bowl, he will be the best named quarterback to ever win the Super Bowl. Bo Nix, the best named quarterback to ever win the Super Bowl.
- [29:28]
A
Joe Montana, still Joe Montana. Yeah, that sounds like some bullshit out of a comic book.
- [29:36]
B
By the way. Joe Montana, Joe Montana is up there, but Bo Nix, it's up there too. Yeah, he's up there too.
- [29:43]
A
If Sam Darnold wins the super bowl, and they might. The Seahawks are loaded. He goes from a boomer bust quarterback who wasn't exactly working out to, oh, Sam Darnold turns out as an elite quarterback.
- [29:55]
B
Yeah, he turns the joke on you or the joke on us.
- [30:00]
A
If Caleb Williams wins the Super Bowl. We already talked about it.
- [30:03]
B
Oh, forget about it.
- [30:04]
A
Off the charts, like Dallas Cowboys, America's team. There's never been in the modern NFL a championship winning star quarterback. Cause Jim McMahon was not seen as the strength on that team. Not as the. Like, he was like a good quarterback. But if a superstar quarterback wins the super bowl for the Chicago Bears, that's like when Derek Jeter was playing shortstop for the Yankees and winning the championship when Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant were like guards for the Lakers and winning the championship when Troy Aikman was the, the quarterback for the Cowboys. And winning, that's just. It's never been seen before. Because the Bears in the super bowl have never had a quarterback like that. And to your point, the Bears are one of America's teams.
- [30:51]
B
Yes, they are. And having a guy like that at QB win, it's just so much that comes with that. But the culture of the Bears. See, I think when you say they're one of America's team, the packers are the Packers. I think the packers are nostalgic legacy. I think the Cowboys are more. What would you call it? Vanity.
- [31:16]
A
Yeah, they just, everyone just bought into. They're America's team and they're the biggest.
- [31:20]
B
Team yeah, but I think the Bears comes with cool culture, connectivity, relatability. It's Chicago, it's blue collar, but at the same time it's on some fly. You know, from.
- [31:39]
A
There's never been a Michael Jordan in football. Right. But if Caleb Williams pans out, I'm just saying he's like the Michael Jordan of football.
- [31:46]
B
There's just so much you can do with that. And on top of that, when you talk about markets, right? People always talk about the LA and the New York markets, but that Chicago market is a different market. The Chicago market is a very loyal market as well as you know, it's not the biggest media market, but it's as big as any other one outside of New York and la. When you the brand partner, everything just changes for you in that space. Like if you were on the Bulls, if you're on the Bears, if you're on the Cubs and you're that guy.
- [32:27]
A
But the Bears, especially the Bears. No, I'm sorry, more than the Bulls or the Cubs.
- [32:30]
B
I agree. No, the Bears especially. But it's just so much there. And if they win, yeah, it's.
- [32:37]
A
Then Caleb is. But going back this early in his.
- [32:40]
B
Career and going back to Josh Allen. The other thing with Josh Allen, if he wins, he becomes the most important bill ever, right?
- [32:50]
A
He trumps Jim Kelly or Jim Kelly.
- [32:52]
B
Yeah, he trumps Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly went there four times, but yeah, he trumps Jim Kelly. Also, I think they give him a small piece of the city they might carve off. Like forget Acres, like a county. They may be like Josh Allen County.
- [33:10]
A
That's who I was thinking. It's funny you bring up Josh Allen. That's who I'm thinking about. There's some dudes you the eyeball test like they jump out at you to the point where you're just waiting for the results on the field to verify what you see. And if Caleb Williams wins the super bowl before Josh Allen in the same kind of package as a football player. Big, strong, big arm, can run, can do all these things. And he does it in his second year.
- [33:36]
B
It's like, you know what else, Max? Josh Allen is also with New Balance.
- [33:42]
A
Interesting battle for New Balance. Signature. Okay, then there's Brock Purdy and Brock Purdy. I remember when he's, oh, it's going to be him or Mahomes and I'm like, nowadays in the NFL, respect to Trent Dilfer and everything, but you can't win a championship with Trent Dilfer at quarterback anymore. You need a special kind of talent. And I was looking at Brock Purdy. It's not that he's a nice quarterback, it's not that. However, since then Brock Purdy has shown he is that he's not doing it in the same eye popping way as everyone else, but he is exactly what you want at quarterback. If Brock Purdy wins a Super bowl on this Shanahan team for the foreseeable future as a quarterback of a Shanahan team, we are probably watching the early stages, early middle stages of a Hall of Fame career. We're completely gonna think of Brock Purdy's image the way we think of him completely changed. That's an elite guy. And then finally, we can talk about it later. But Stroud or Rodgers. Rodgers wins a second Super Bowl. He's elevated into the uppermost echelon at.
- [34:41]
B
The age that he's at.
- [34:43]
A
Unbelievable.
- [34:43]
B
The for he would have, if he wins, he would have won a Super bowl with two of the most storied franchises in the history of the NFL.
- [34:53]
A
Of the NFL. Two of the most storied franchises. Because the Steelers were that cool out of market team to root for when I was a kid. Yeah, Me and Joe Green. And all these years, if your team.
- [35:02]
B
Lost and the Steelers was in it, you wanted the Steelers to win.
- [35:06]
A
That's what I was as a little kid. I was rooting for. I thought I was a Steelers fan. What did I know? They were always in the Super Bowl. And then CJ Stroud, I think of him, even in college, I was always like, if there's time on the clock, I don't care if you're down two touchdowns. I believe in that guy.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah.
- [35:21]
A
I believe in CJ the shifting in public perception of these quarterbacks is going to be like, what's at stake here in terms of legacy and these playoffs is different than a lot of years.
- [35:33]
B
But if you had to pick one who has the most at stake, who has.
- [35:37]
A
Well, I'll say who has the most upside is maybe Caleb. Cause the.
- [35:41]
B
No, no, no. Not upside.
- [35:42]
A
No. Josh Allen. Maybe.
- [35:44]
B
I'm saying who has the most for their career, who has the most at stake?
- [35:49]
A
Let me look the most at stake. Josh Allen.
- [35:53]
B
I think so too.
- [35:53]
A
Josh Allen. Yeah. Josh Allen. He has the most upside and the most downside. Yeah, yeah. So that's like. I just want. I had a lot of NFL stuff I wanted to get off my chest.
- [36:04]
B
Listen, Roger Goodell probably had a karaoke night at his house. I mean, the NFL is on fire.
- [36:12]
A
Fire.
- [36:12]
B
And based upon this game tonight, if this game tonight is Just as good as the weekend.
- [36:19]
A
If Roger. Well, we, I mean I hope there's.
- [36:21]
B
Not a clause in the, in the, in the option in the TV deal. He's.
- [36:25]
A
They're getting Metcalf back from the suspension. So Rodgers and Tomlin at, you know, Tomlin hasn't won a playoff game in almost 10 years and Rodgers only won one sweet. If they get by this Texans defense, they can run the table. They can. If you can beat this Texans team, you can beat anyone. And if the Texans beat the Steelers, I think I like the Texans to win the whole thing.
- [36:45]
B
How smart is it to put a game on Monday night? They went Saturday, Sunday, Monday.
- [36:57]
A
They just own your whole weekend and into the week.
- [36:59]
B
The NFL they just so smart, man. Like they shrewd, gangster, strategic.
- [37:09]
A
And the product they get, like the product you get, you're getting. The NFL used to be like the super bowl was always a dud cause it was one sided. And nowadays the playoffs are crazy. Like you can't even remember the last classic game you saw cause you just saw three great games.
- [37:24]
B
Yeah, no, it was great, great, great weekend. Hopefully tonight I'll be glued. Tonight I'll be glued.
- [37:30]
A
Know who it wasn't a great weekend for? Or maybe it was the Dallas Mavericks.
- [37:36]
B
Yeah, tough.
- [37:37]
A
But maybe it was a great weekend. But let's, let's listen.
- [37:39]
B
You can be optimistic.
- [37:41]
A
Okay, Ad, what's your take? You, you represent Anthony Davis? Yes, he is on the Mavericks. There were lots of, there was lots of speculation he could be moved.
- [37:51]
B
Yeah.
- [37:52]
A
What's your take on what do you have to say about AD, AD's injury and the Mavericks right now?
- [37:58]
B
Well, I mean we don't know enough about the. We have to see. So I won't speak much on the actual injury. But as far as. If you asking me if I'm in the Dallas Mavericks position from a team perspective, how I view it, I mean you could be. Listen, you never want a player to go down with any type of injury. But I do think that when you have that speculation out there, you have to make your mind up a little bit because sometimes when you play in traffic you get hit by a car, you know, whether that's.
- [38:31]
A
How are they playing in traffic? How's Dallas playing in traffic?
- [38:33]
B
Well, if you have the speculate, you have to decide which direction you want to go in. And again that's not, that's. I say that, but it's easier said than done. Right. Because what happens in these situations if you plan on trading somebody, there's a time there's like a. It's almost like a gamesmanship to it, right? You're trying to go a little bit longer, a little bit longer, a little bit longer to try to see the most you can get out of something. And sometimes when you do that, you run a risk. In this case, A.D. gets injured.
- [39:08]
A
You know what they say on Wall street is bulls and bears make money and pigs get slaughtered.
- [39:15]
B
Right now, in this case, he gets injured. Luckily, it's not one of those things that he would never come back from, so to speak, and probably won't prevent a team from still wanting to trade for him if that was the case. You hear all this speculation out there. You don't know what's real. Around this time, everyone's talking about trades and things like that. But in their case, if you don't have the clarity, then I think it's important to gain it at some point, because we talked about it last week. Timeline, you have to decide which way you want to go. Now, in this case, it could being optimistic if the speculation wasn't necessarily true. Now it could be helpful because I think you're 13th in the West. Your best player has gone down at least for some time. He'll be out some time. You still have a young player in.
- [40:16]
A
You think it's a ligament and it's going to be for the rest of the season.
- [40:20]
B
We don't know yet. We don't know yet. We'll find out at some point, but we don't. If you don't hear it from, then we don't know yet. But nevertheless, your best player's gone down. You still have your young guy in Cooper Flagg. They've dealt with injuries. You know, from Derrick Lively to Kyrie, et cetera. There is a world where, given that you can come out of this draft with a great draft pick, that you're looking at the following year and saying, now, wait a minute. We got these two young guys on rookie contracts that are really good, that are able to really still play the game at a high level. So that's the middle. On each end, we have a Kyrie and a AD who are champions, right? All Stars when healthy. Two of the. I'm throwing Kyrie in there. I don't care what anybody says. Two of the top 10 players or 15 players in the league when healthy, and then obviously figuring out some surface level stuff with the bench. So it's not totally negative. And look, Nico gets fired, you have the interim team in there. You have ownership. Everyone's trying to figure things out, right? And get on one page. So there's a lot there. But. But if you were planning on trading somebody, when these type of things happen, you really. The way to evaluate it is sometimes you're just not going to continue to get more and more and more. And if you are planning on trading somebody, in this case, if it was the player that was now injured or someone else, if it was a player that was now injured, then you're probably going to get less than what you was going to get.
- [42:18]
A
There's so much. There's so much there. Like, you know, there's the expression a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Right. Like you have a bird in the hand. But I actually think of chess, everyone's like, oh, moves on the chessboard. Right. In chess, a lot of times you set the table, let's say you prepared a castle, and then you get a little greedy and you're like, wait, before I castle, I want to make this one other movement. Or it's called finichettoing your bishop. When you move the pawn in front of the king after you've castled, and now you're gonna move the bishop into that space in front of the king. And a lot of times a player will delay that move to do something else and it'll come back to bite him. Cause they're not defended. It's like if you set the table, eat, right? If the table is set at a certain point, you gotta sit down and eat. And Dallas didn't do that. And now whatever they were going to get for AD at least immediately, they're not going to get.
- [43:13]
B
No. I mean, if the speculation was true. Yeah, but look, in the NBA, if you notice, things don't really get done until right up to deadlines. Whether you're doing a rookie extension. Right up to the deadline. Rookie extensions, you can offer it in July, but most rookies don't.
- [43:35]
A
You're saying don't do that all the time. You're saying, like with AD, that's playing in traffic.
- [43:40]
B
Yeah. What I'm saying is in most situations, you don't do things until you have to. Right. Whether it's paying your taxes, whether it's.
- [43:49]
A
If it wasn't for the last minute, nothing would get done.
- [43:51]
B
Yeah. So that is a risk. The worst thing that can happen is a player, if you were planning on trading him, getting injured.
- [44:01]
A
Is it so. But you touched on this already. But it reminds me of when you and I were hanging out and you were saying when it first looked like Jokic was going to be out for like 12 weeks, you're like, max, this might be a blessing in disguise for the Nuggets, right? Yeah.
- [44:15]
B
Because they would, I mean, you get.
- [44:17]
A
A draft pick maybe out of it, and then you come back healthier, better than ever. Rich, there is a world in which, and it's not that far fetched, where AD is out for the rest of the year. Dallas gets worse and worse. You get an excellent draft pick out of this. Kyrie and AD are still on the team next year with Cooper Flag, who's now in his second year and is already an excellent player, and you add a draft pick and Dallas runs the table. It's possible. Like that's not a far fetched scenario. It's maybe not likely because Kyrie's injury history, AD's injury history, their age and blah, blah, blah, and the timing of Cooper Flag, but it's not like that's not far fetched.
- [44:58]
B
No, that's all predicated on if you get past this trade deadline and you stand pat and that was your decision, then you're looking at how the team performs in the later half of the year to determine whether somebody should possibly come back or not. Right. You're not going to bring a guy. So there's a lot to look at.
- [45:20]
A
I want to see the team stay together and I'll tell you why. If Nico Harris makes this move and he's fire Harrison, sorry. Makes this move and he's fired. It's the worst GM trade ever. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it turns out that Luka dead ends on the Lakers like they do well, but they never get over the hump and win a championship and Dallas actually gets a chip out of it. Then all of the comment, like most of the commentary of why it was such a bad trade fell into three points. One, it seems like they didn't shop the trade enough so they could have gotten more. Okay, that's answered by Nico. Harrison might just say, I didn't want, I wanted that. I wanted ad. Right. So that's one. Two, given their age and injury histories, AD was likely to continue to get hurt and then decline. And Luka was entering his prime. Okay. However, given the shape that Luka often pulls, like let's see how long his prime is, et cetera. Right? And then three, Luka is box office more than AD because AD is a big. And Luka handle, you know, is on the ball and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Number one, the box office. Okay? But if you're making basketball decisions, you should be worried about how to win more than the box office. If you're a fan of that team, that's what you want your GM doing. And in terms of the injury stuff and everything, that is true. And to me, that's the number one reason you don't make the trade. But if it turns out that AD can get healthy next year and play 60 to 65 games and be healthy in the playoffs and they win a championship. Nico Harrison was right. Yeah, it's like, hilarious to me.
- [46:59]
B
I think Nico's thought process was, I got the points in either one of these guys, but in ad, I have the default defensive prowess as well. And ultimately that wins championships. He just never had a chance to see it all play out together. That first game that was played, it looked incredible with those guys. And sometimes you just fall on bad luck in terms of injuries. But, yeah, no, I think you're saying exactly what probably Dallas is thinking. There is, you know, it's a tough thing, like, do we. Do we move on? Do we kind of blow this thing up and go young, or do we give our chance to see. Give ourselves a chance to see us get whole and what that could potentially look like, because if we could just get there and what that could potentially.
- [47:55]
A
Look like is really what you're betting on pretty good. If they don't do it, if they don't keep it together, I think it'll be based on AD's injury history and age. And then also at this point, Kyrie's injury history and age. That would be the probably. If you're playing the odds, you would deal them because of that. That's why I'm saying maybe it's a blessing in disguise, because if you're forced to keep the team together, you might wind up winning a championship out of this deal. It could happen. You might be maybe more than one Cooper flag.
- [48:24]
B
Is that dude. Yeah. Cooper Flagg is going to be really good. But also, he is really.
- [48:29]
A
He's already.
- [48:29]
B
No, he is really good. Yeah, he is really good. But also when you're thinking about these things, you're also looking at the other pieces as well and trying to decide if I can offload some of these contracts and things like that. So there's a lot that go into it. But yeah, holistically you're right.
- [48:48]
A
And also you're right about what you usually say. It's like a quarterback on a rookie deal. Why do people like that window? Cause you're getting X value for Y dollars, which is X minus a lot. Right. Like you said you're getting $50 million worth of production, you're paying $6 million, whatever it is. And so for those who would say the timing is off and you made this argument. And of course, you could see why one guy's very young, the other guys are in their 30s already. But then again, the argument could be made now is when you can afford to do this. You can have Cooper Flagg, you can have a guy like ad, you can have a guy like Kyrese, you can have draft picks, you can flesh out the roster with role players that cost you a few dollars, because maybe now is the time to keep it together.
- [49:34]
B
No, that is true. Look, a GM's dream is to have young players that play the right way, that also produce while having on rookie deals on a lower salary, while having. I'm not gonna say older players, but having more tenured players that also do the same thing, because it allows you to have a balance sheet.
- [50:01]
A
I'll tell you who the pressure would be on, though. The pressure would be on in that scenario. Kyrie. Because we've seen KYRIE On a LeBron team where LeBron's the leader, be a championship player and play at the highest possible level in the biggest possible moments. But otherwise, throughout his career, given the fact that he might be the most skillful player who ever lived, he should always be additive to every team. That's not always been the case. He has been hurt and teamed up.
- [50:28]
B
What team hasn't even been additive to.
- [50:29]
A
In Boston, for example.
- [50:32]
B
Like, that's not true. What, you mean he got hurt?
- [50:35]
A
He. But when he was hurt, there were certain things they were doing better than with him on the floor. Like, I'm not. I'm not making. I don't take.
- [50:44]
B
You're saying style of play.
- [50:45]
A
I'm saying results are on the court. Like, I'm not. I don't take pleasure in running down a player. I'm not doing that. But I do have to tell you what I think about when I see it.
- [50:55]
B
That's fair.
- [50:55]
A
Yeah. And be honest about it. You gotta be honest about it. There is a lot of. And by the way, I'm not rooting against him here.
- [51:02]
B
No, I don't. I don't believe that.
- [51:03]
A
Just like I'm not rooting against Josh Allen when I say, okay, there's no Patrick Mahomes. I know you don't have a run defense, but, like, a lot of guys don't have a lot of stuff. Who's going to get it done? So when Josh Allen does. Does what he just did. Oh, my God, look at that. There's pressure on Kyrie if that. If that team were to stay together, to come back now as the older guy who's more in the mentor position, as more. More in a kind of wisened older vet position, because you have this dynamic young player in Cooper Flag, you have a great player in ad and if the. And like, if the results aren't what you would expect, Kyrie, I believe, will rightfully get a lot of the criticism. However, that's not all downside. There's also the upside. What if Kyrie wins a championship coming back with AD and Cooper Flag and no LeBron, right then all of a sudden, if Kyrie shows that part of his. I even watched him on the nets with James Harden. Kyrie does everything better than James Harden. But. But he wasn't a better player at the time than James Harden because Harden had a certain wisdom about when to do certain things. He played the game even though his skill, skill for skill was not Kyrie. He made more out of what he had with wisdom. Basically. If Kyrie shows that and shows the leadership ability, think about where his place in history will be.
- [52:29]
B
Yeah, no, I think that's a real opportunity. I think Kai has really, like that was a younger Kai. I think the Kai today does everything differently and I've been around him a long time. I think his whole approach to everything is different. And you're right, the talent, we don't have to worry about that.
- [52:50]
A
But there's talent and there's skill.
- [52:52]
B
No, he has both. He has both. He has both. But he also has now also added to that the experience and the willingness to play a real floor game, not just score the ball. He's playing a real floor game and he showed it when they went to the finals. Really? Even though he can score in spots, but he's a different player still same talent level still same skill level, but he is a different player.
- [53:19]
A
I was talking about the quarterbacks before. If Kyrie comes back and does that, think about when you think of the greatest point guards who ever lived and you think about Kyrie, if he does that.
- [53:30]
B
Well, I will say this. Kyrie is one of the smaller guards that could actually be the best player on your team on a championship you can win.
- [53:40]
A
Yeah.
- [53:40]
B
Yes.
- [53:41]
A
Yeah.
- [53:42]
B
It doesn't happen. It's only happened twice. Isaiah and Steph in 22, but even.
- [53:47]
A
Steph is 6, 3. And by the way, that's true. Yeah.
- [53:51]
B
So it's Khan.
- [53:53]
A
Once KD left. I gotta give it to Steph, he was the best player throughout the playoffs on each team and he won a championship and he won Finals MVP.
- [54:02]
B
He did it in 2022. That's when he did it.
- [54:04]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Luka, because we brought him up when talk. I brought him up when talking about the AD trade. I've been vocal about this recently. I mean, everyone knows Luka doesn't play defense, but watching him on a team that I'm really interested in, which is the Lakers.
- [54:24]
B
Why are you interested in the Lakers? You're from New York.
- [54:26]
A
Laryng. I'm from New York, but I did afternoon drive out here in LA for six years. So, you know, before I could move, I had to think, could I do, like. I don't want a carpet.
- [54:36]
B
Did you buy season tickets?
- [54:38]
A
I didn't buy season tickets, but I got tickets whenever I needed them. You know, like, I went to plenty.
- [54:41]
B
Of games, but that's not. There's a difference.
- [54:43]
A
I was. I went to plenty of games. Not in the press box. Great seats.
- [54:47]
B
I bought season tickets. Just so you know, I understand.
- [54:50]
A
And most agents don't do that, right? They do. Most agents.
- [54:54]
B
Why you. I don't know what they do. I bought.
- [54:57]
A
Why did you buy season tickets? You obviously have access.
- [54:59]
B
Because I live in la, but you.
- [55:01]
A
I'm saying you obviously have access to tickets. If you don't have seat, why did. Why get floor seats? Why?
- [55:07]
B
Because I wanted to. I plan on going to games, Laker games from here on out. Like, I'm a basketball fan.
- [55:13]
A
Right. So you want to go as a fan?
- [55:16]
B
Yeah, I want to be able to go to the game and not necessarily have to ask somebody for tickets.
- [55:22]
A
Right.
- [55:22]
B
You know, what if my kids want to go? What if you want to go? You want to take. What if.
- [55:27]
A
You know, like I was going to ask this when you brought it. Like, I really want to get into who's going to win a championship first, the Knicks or the Lakers. Right.
- [55:35]
B
But right now, the way that looks. The Knicks.
- [55:38]
A
Knicks. The way it looks right now because.
- [55:42]
B
Well, I just think the pantry have a little bit. Has more in it than the Lakers right now. But being optimistic, it just. That's the way it looks today. Now the Lakers have options. The Lakers. If I was the Lakers, I would probably be targeting the Memphis Grizzlies as a trade partner for Jaren Jackson.
- [56:10]
A
Yeah, that'd be a great fit.
- [56:12]
B
I would. I would. I would.
- [56:13]
A
For whom?
- [56:14]
B
Well, that's the thing. Cause you gotta figure out the package. But some way, somehow I would be trying to Get Jaren Jackson, maybe get back Gigi Jackson. Jackson and Jackson Associates, because he's a young player that you can, you can develop, got good size, can shoot the ball. But I think if you're building around Luka going forward, which they are, you.
- [56:38]
A
Need a guy like that, you need that anchor.
- [56:40]
B
And Jaren doesn't want to be a part of a rebuild. They just put Ja Morant on the market, right. Saying that they're willing to trade him, et cetera.
- [56:49]
A
That's a great call.
- [56:50]
B
So I think that would be a trade partner for me. Now the package just goes out is what you have to decide. Because. If you're able to trade out expirings and give up the last first round pick you got, that could be one scenario, right. Or you can say, let me withhold that. But this comes with a, this comes with a very unemotional attachment. Because Austin is beloved, which he should be.
- [57:23]
A
But he's about to get paid.
- [57:25]
B
He's an underdog. And here's the thing. If you really, there's a world where you can do what's best for your team and do what's best for Austin. Cause Austin deserves to get paid. Right now. I love him as a Laker, but if that is a situation where we get in balance, because if you put in, if you put all the money into just the backcourt and then you're kind of like your flexibility is restricted going forward to fill out the rest of the team, then that's kind of like riding. You know, when you used to have the training wheels on your bike, but the one training wheel is off and it kind of leans. That's kind of like that. And I think people. So that's one aspect of it. But if you can, obviously, if you can keep Austin, have Jaren some kind of way, have Luka, they're going to take up most of your money. And then I'm not saying I'm full of time.
- [58:27]
A
Harder, but harder to flesh out the roster.
- [58:29]
B
And look, I don't get into the whole discount for any player.
- [58:33]
A
Sure.
- [58:33]
B
And I don't know what Austin's value may be to the Lakers or anybody else. He's going to get paid a lot of money and he's, he's earned that. He deserves it. But if you can maintain that some kind of way and that gives you a balance.
- [58:48]
A
But it's hard in the NBA with the APs to have redundancy. To have redundancy. But that would be like, if you have redundancy on your team that usually means there's a weakness somewhere else that you're better off using the resources where you're redundant to go address. Austin Reaves on ball can score really well, do all these things they have a guy like that already they're better at and who doesn't play any defense. So you need someone to balance out the defense at another position.
- [59:14]
B
Yeah, but, but Austin would get his money to. I mean, Memphis would definitely pay Austin, right? He would become probably their leading scorer or their point guard. It depends on still their leading scorer. Leading scorer for sure. Leading scorer, yes. He'd probably be their point guard for now, but definitely be their highest paid player, et cetera. But that would be regardless how it goes, whatever the package may be. That would be my target for the Lakers. That's a great idea if you're doing that. And if I have those two pieces to start from, right. And I know everybody wants this to be LeBron's last year. Hopefully it's not LeBron's last year, whatever that looks like going forward, that's yet to be seen. But if you have those two, if those two pieces on your board and then now I'm looking at how to fill in the rest of the blanks, that's a good starting point. Now, that doesn't guarantee you a championship tomorrow, but it gives you, it gives you some building blocks. It definitely gives you some building blocks. And when you look at Jaren Jackson, he can shoot the three.
- [60:26]
A
The age is right. The same year.
- [60:29]
B
They're in the same draft. They're in the same draft.
- [60:31]
A
I remember thinking about that draft, thinking Jackson might be the best play because he has the highest floor. I didn't know if he had the highest ceiling, but I thought he maybe had the highest floor.
- [60:43]
B
Yeah, I mean, look, he came out as a freshman, he was really young, but when you think of how he plays the game, he's. He's huge. He can shoot the three, he's blocked shots, he can roll, he can catch a lob.
- [60:58]
A
You know, he's a, he knows how to play.
- [61:00]
B
And by the way, he's a high IQ ball player. He played at Michigan State, dad played in the league. So when you think about that, if that's your building block, then we got action, we got action from there. Now I'm just really kind of fill in the blanks. Now I have to go get me an athletic wing that hopefully can hit that corner three consistently shoot somewhere between 37 and 40% from.
- [61:29]
A
And has a high IQ.
- [61:30]
B
Also has a high IQ and then I start to get those shooters, but not costing me $40 million to find one. Start to really. Because now you start to really fill out the team. I always said this. I think the Big Two and depth is the way to go. And what you're seeing is now.
- [61:55]
A
You.
- [61:55]
B
Look at that Detroit team.
- [61:56]
A
Has there ever really been a Big Three that's won a champion?
- [61:59]
B
I said I got in trouble for this.
- [62:01]
A
People thought I was lying. Dale retired halfway through the season when the Lakers won with Wilt and Jerry West. Chris Bosh was an All Star, clearly. And a great player. Two way player. But if by Big Three, you mean you can build, he could be the best player on a championship team. Not quite. Kevin Love, same thing. Really nice player. Not going to build a championship around Kevin Love.
- [62:25]
B
I made that point on the Pat McAfee Show.
- [62:28]
A
Yep.
- [62:29]
B
And I seen players and ex players like what you know, because you have.
- [62:34]
A
To define what big three means.
- [62:35]
B
Yeah. But I was on the Pat McAfee Show. I'm just, I couldn't elaborate.
- [62:39]
A
No, I'm saying, what I'm saying is if, like I remember people getting on me by saying Kevin Love was in the big. Isn't part of a Big Three. If you define Big Three as three All Stars, Right.
- [62:50]
B
Yes. That's not how I define it.
- [62:52]
A
I agree. Big Three should really be. Can each one of these players at least be tied for the best player on a championship team?
- [63:00]
B
Yes.
- [63:00]
A
Right. Like if, like I love Jalen Brunson. Jalen Brunson needs at least one other player on his team as good as him. You don't have to be better. You have to be at least as good, preferably better, just because he's short. So you're talking about a Big Three, meaning each one of these guys could be the focal point of a championship winning team.
- [63:20]
B
Yes. And my thing was actually giving credit to Chris Bosh because he had the willingness to after coming from Toronto, being an All Star, being a man there.
- [63:33]
A
To take us to actually take a.
- [63:37]
B
Step back and sacrifice.
- [63:39]
A
Do you want to be 20 and 10 as the number one option on a team that gets bumped where the ceiling is the second round?
- [63:45]
B
Yes.
- [63:46]
A
Or do you want to be 13 and 8 as the number three option on a dynasty and what kind of. What do you want for your career?
- [63:53]
B
That didn't really. And the last point I was making about that, the reason why I said it wasn't a Big Three is because when you have a Big Three, each one of those players carry an entitlement that I share Equity in this. Right, in this team. In terms of.
- [64:11]
A
I'll give you the first Big Three that could do it.
- [64:13]
B
Okay.
- [64:14]
A
We talked about them already. If Dallas stays together and wins a chip, that's an actual Big Three. But to your point, the only reason it's possible is because one of the three developed very quickly under his rookie contract. This is like, if you want to argue the Lakers with James Worthy, although Kareem was already in decline. They, they, they pulled a move and now they have the number one pick. And they, they, they kiss Worthy into a magic Kareem situation. And to bring them all three together, unless it's on one of them's on a rookie deal is almost impossible.
- [64:44]
B
And Worthy came in really young. Really good.
- [64:47]
A
Really good. Right. You have to, because you developed at North Carolina.
- [64:50]
B
So to answer your question, today, it's the Knicks, but it depends on what the next moves are. I can't see the.
- [65:00]
A
Well, with Walters, like, you know, you have the Dodgers ownership owning the Lakers, they might start making good moves in the not too distant future.
- [65:08]
B
I think the Lakers made good moves prior to that. But what I'm saying is.
- [65:13]
A
Or optimal moves, let's put it that way.
- [65:14]
B
Yeah, but what I'm saying is it depends on how you want to move going forward. Again, I'm not into this. Let's wait on Giannis, let's wait on Jokic. I think all that is not realistic. I mean, we saw what Giannis just said in terms of, I'm not asking for a trade. So if they trade me, they trade me. If they don't, they don't.
- [65:35]
A
That makes me. The more I think about it, the more suspicious I am that he's on the move, because why make that comment if you're not on the move?
- [65:42]
B
But it's not really his decision, though.
- [65:44]
A
But the point is, why even make that comment publicly? Unless you are trying to get ahead of what you always say in the media narrative. Get ahead of, oh, it's my fault. So that makes sense.
- [65:55]
B
No player wants it to be their fault. But regardless if there's a trade or not a trade, I don't think anyone would be wrong in that position. Giannis has done everything he could do for that organization, and if he felt like he wanted to be moved, then he has every right to be moved. And the Bucks could decide to move him. They paid. He's been there, what, 13 years, and they paid him every time and did everything he's asked him to do. And so sometimes you have to go your separate way. Everyone's journey has to be their own journey. I think people want your journey to be their journey. No, it's his journey. And so if he decides he wants. I don't think there should be any negative backlash from that. He brought us championships.
- [66:39]
A
You have one career. If you feel like you've maxed out what you could do in a certain place and you want to win more.
- [66:45]
B
And I'm gonna tell you something. Giannis did a very classy thing the other night after the game, too. You gotta see his postgame, and not just because it's about LeBron, but he just talked about the example of being a professional in the blueprint. He really talked highly of LeBron, talked about how this may be their last time playing. You know, they hadn't played since each other since 22. It was just something that you don't see often. Now he's an international player, so I'm not surprised. But it's just something that you don't.
- [67:24]
A
You don't really see well, giving another player his flowers in that moment.
- [67:29]
B
Yeah, in that moment and how he did now, they won the game, et cetera. But no, I just thought that was really. I think we are starting to see it a little bit more with this generation. It seemed like this generation is more willing to give players their flowers. But I thought. Not to go off on a tangent. I just thought it was a cool moment.
- [67:49]
A
Are you saying because LeBron doesn't normally get enough from his peers?
- [67:52]
B
No, I don't want to make this about LeBron. I'm making this about Giannis. I just thought that Giannis did a very classy thing, whether that was about Kevin Durant or Steph Curry or any of the elder Stakesmen. In this case, yes, it was about LeBron. And I think it's harder for guys to do that for LeBron than anyone else, obviously, because he's. For a number of different reasons, but Giannis has always been someone.
- [68:17]
A
Well, that's interesting. Why do you think it's harder for people to do it for LeBron? I mean, I think if it's tied to something, it's what you said about. It's not everyone has their own journey. I remember Kevin Durant making a comment when he was still in okc.
- [68:33]
B
Kevin has been one to do it a lot. Kevin has been one to give LeBron. Yeah, well, just. Kevin has been one to give everyone their flaws.
- [68:42]
A
But what I mean is.
- [68:42]
B
But as a peer and someone he's competed against.
- [68:45]
A
No, no question. Cause he's like a crazy basketball Head. Yes. But. But I remember him talking after okc, I think got knocked out of the playoffs one year, maybe it was in 16. Hey, the sun is still gonna come up tomorrow type stuff like, this is not my whole life. And people getting really mad because we're coming, you know, mj, Kobe, if they lost, it's like the world ended. Right. And so people want that guy to be like that. And if you're not like that, then you're doing something wrong. And that's just. KD is someone different. But LeBron does not. Following Kobe, people wanted to see that same kind of like, I think. And before Jordan, I really think it was Larry Bird. It's like, Larry Bird, don't let the paint job fool you, as Marcellus Wiley used to say on the radio. Right. Like Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant. Kindred spirits that way. Right. Guys who scored a lot. Yes. Won a lot, and wanted to keep kill you and were miserable. But like Larry Bird once said, the best part about beating the Lakers. Think about this, Rich. The best part was knowing that Magic was suffering in the other locker room. That's the best part. What are you psychotic? But that's MJ and that's Kobe. And so when you see that, then people want the next guy to be like the last guy. And Maybe that affected LeBron because his personality is not like.
- [70:08]
B
Yeah, I don't think it's never like anybody, but. And if you had to choose one, it was probably more in terms of just character, personality, you know, magic.
- [70:19]
A
Magic, right. LeBron was more like Magic, light up.
- [70:22]
B
The room, et cetera. You know, engaging with everybody.
- [70:24]
A
Magic. But it didn't seem like he had to be miserable to be successful.
- [70:27]
B
Not to make this about him. I just thought that this was. I thought that was a very classy thing. That's all. Yeah, I know why I thought of that comment I just made about Giannis. Why? Isaiah Thomas has said he didn't understand why this era of players don't give their best player flowers and the way that MJ's era of players did. And he made a comment, he said, y' all act like this guy is nothing. And then he went on to say the same thing with Durant and also with Steph. And so that made me think about that. And then after I saw that, I think that was on the show with DeMarcus and Michelle and Lou and Chandler. And then I saw Giannis post game press conference because he had got a signed jersey, and then he said that, and I was like, oh, well, that's a little bit different.
- [71:26]
A
See, let me tell you how this is gonna be proceeding, okay? I love Isaiah. Thomas, I love you. This is gonna be perceived, and maybe correctly, I might agree with this, that what you and Isaiah, when you guys talk about that stuff, Jordan's not coming down off the perch.
- [71:45]
B
No, I don't want that.
- [71:47]
A
But it's not based on Isaiah's trying to make it because obviously him and Isaiah.
- [71:51]
B
Yeah, I don't have anything to do with that.
- [71:53]
A
To be six feet tall, six foot one, and win two championships. There's a reason only Isaiah has ever done that as the best player on the team, because he's. You have to be, in a disturbed way, competitive. Isaiah is cutthroat competitive. That's why he's one of the greatest players ever. And Jordan is the target in that era that you're shooting for. Even though I know Isaiah. No, we were shooting for us. We came first. But you know what I mean. Jordan was better than everyone. So what Isaiah, when he said says that, what he's really saying, what fans, what you'll get criticized for in the comments, whatever. I know you don't care, but there might be something to it, Rich, is that people are always okay. The analytics say Jordan, the championships say Jordan. Everything says Jordan. So if you want to make the LeBron, if you want to make the case that someone other than Jordan is the greatest, you need to do things like. Well, it's really about the narrative. LeBron has all the records, says Isaiah. Why is Jordan the. Well, because LeBron has the records that you get by playing a long time. The peak records all belong to Jordan. So that it's Isaiah, really. I don't know that like the reason everyone gave Jordan their flowers, his flowers while he was active is cuz he was more better than everyone else, than anyone else who ever lived. Was more better than everyone else. That's why he got his flowers.
- [73:16]
B
I don't know what Isaiah got going. That's not my thing. Michael Jordan was my favorite player ever.
- [73:20]
A
Before LeBron came along.
- [73:22]
B
Yeah, I mean, obviously, but Michael. But still, Michael Jordan outside of LeBron don't count that. That's my guy. Come on. But Michael Jordan's my favorite. So I'm not getting into that thing. And I wasn't even making it about MJ and or LeBron.
- [73:38]
A
But that's how the audience is gonna perceive Steve. What you're saying is.
- [73:42]
B
Oh, I want to be clear, audience. This is not about that. This is not. Forget I tell Max. Enough with the MJ.
- [73:51]
A
LeBron, you know, that's not. That's not going to end it, but.
- [73:53]
B
I know, but enough with that. What I was thinking about.
- [73:56]
A
These are Rich's actual opinions.
- [73:58]
B
Yeah.
- [73:58]
A
Like, if you hang out with Rich off the show, this is actually what he believes.
- [74:02]
B
What I was more so thinking about in this instance was how my dad used to always talk to me about what it took to be a man's man and how a man that was really comfortable in his skin and also leading with integrity and principle and all those things was able to celebrate others while no matter what state I was in, I could be down bad. Just because I'm down bad don't mean I'm going to pull you down or be nasty towards you or whatever. And then I started thinking about when I was a kid and the birthday parties or the pictures I would see in our. In our, you know, photo album. And my parents would have money or their friends would have money pinned on them all the way down to their ankle, damn near. And that's because as people came through the door, a part of celebrating you was to pin money on you. That was a show, a sign of respect, and a celebratory thing. And so my dad used to tell me these stories about when he go into a restaurant or he'd go into a club or a night. At that point, it was bars. They didn't really go to clubs. But it's someone's birthday, and you see him over there, and if it's Max Kellerman and his lady and it's Max's birthday, send Max a bottle of champagne. Right. We watch these movies, and we watch all the movies that we love, our favorite movies, whether it's Goodfellas or, you know, the American gangsters thing, you saw these people do certain things when they came in the place. They were celebrating each other's successes. I went to that. I didn't even go to the mj.
- [75:49]
A
So you're talking about coming from. This is what I talk about when birds first saw MJ, and he was the best player in the league, MVPs in cha. And he just gave it up. He was like, all right, that dude's the best, because he's coming from a place of security.
- [76:00]
B
But I said it was the era that those people were born in. They were born in the 60s. They grew up in the 70s. Men did things differently during that time. They just did. And so now music was different. Your approach was different. How you courted, how you people weren't.
- [76:19]
A
Sagging with the G halfway that on the.
- [76:20]
B
Everything you did was. And so then you go into our era where it was more. So everything had to be a negative connotation towards you. Especially if I didn't have. And you did. Now I want to take you get what I'm saying?
- [76:37]
A
I do understand. I think you might be.
- [76:40]
B
And that may be over people's head. That may be too much.
- [76:42]
A
No, no. But I think you might be. When you go through album like this is when people get nostalgic and they always say all the good old days, Right? And this used to happen to me when I would talk to old timers when I was a kid in boxing. We used to have Sugar Ray Robinson and Rocky Marciano and Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey and who do you have today? And I'd be like, I don't know, Alexis Arguello, Marvin Hagler.
- [77:03]
B
Pretty good, right?
- [77:04]
A
But it didn't compare to what they were saying.
- [77:05]
B
Right.
- [77:06]
A
But that's because they didn't just take one year and compare it to whatever it was, 1985. They took the history of boxing and compared it to 1985. When people talk about music nowadays, in the old days, we had all. Because you only remember the hits. You don't remember the bad stuff. So you might be reacting to. You flipped through the photo album. Yeah, those are all special occasions. But there may have been just as much crab in a bucket type stuff. I'm sure it was that was going on back then as there is now.
- [77:35]
B
I'm sure it was. But what I'm saying is it's still a mentality right amongst. And I always said so you really.
- [77:42]
A
Think it was a different mentality? Yeah.
- [77:44]
B
And I always said this. I don't know, I forgot what show I was on, but someone asked me about the goat debate again. I'm like, you know what I want to see? Forget a debate. I just want to be in the room when those two guys have dinner. I want to be able to, you know, be a part of an investment that they come together and make and I could put my little dribblets in there to get me a return. I want to be like. I want to be there when they do talk about the game and things like that. I don't, you know, I don't really care to compare either one of them.
- [78:20]
A
See, I do. They both. My whole thinking is animated by who is better. Like, I think sports fans. You watch sports. A lot of it. It's not all of it. A lot of it is just the entertainment value, the drama and all this. But the underlying fundamental question in any contest is who's better. You're establishing hierarchy. So that's the barbershop.
- [78:41]
B
You're going to ask me who's better. I'm going to say LeBron, and I'm.
- [78:43]
A
Going to say Jordan.
- [78:44]
B
Okay.
- [78:44]
A
Yeah, but you don't have to down LeBron. The point is. Or MJ or MJ to make the comparison.
- [78:51]
B
Yes.
- [78:52]
A
Yeah, right. I understand that.
- [78:53]
B
That's all.
- [78:54]
A
Yeah.
- [78:54]
B
Yeah.
- [78:54]
A
You look very nice today, Rich.
- [78:56]
B
You look very nice. Is that Tom?
- [78:58]
A
See, it's. This is Tom. Yeah.
- [79:00]
B
I knew that was Tom. You love Tom.
- [79:02]
A
Yeah. Actually, those are to your right. It's almost all Tom. Not all, but almost all.
- [79:04]
B
See, I know the type of guy you are.
- [79:07]
A
Yeah? What kind of guy?
- [79:11]
B
When you lock in with something, you're stuck there.
- [79:14]
A
It's kind of laziness in a way.
- [79:15]
B
They can sell you anything.
- [79:17]
A
You know what it was? I was watching A Quantum of Solace, the second in the reboot with what's his name is James Bond. Daniel Craig is James Bond. It was the second one, and he was on a boat in Italy somewhere. And he had a shawl. I wore it on this show. A shawl collar, cardigan, black. And I was with the white collar, standing up, and I was like, who is dressing this dude? And after the movie ended, I was like, oh, Tom Ford.
- [79:45]
B
Okay.
- [79:45]
A
Went right to Tom Ford. Straight to Tom Ford.
- [79:48]
B
That's how I feel. I mean, see, I'm. I've been a Ralph guy. I'm a Ralph guy.
- [79:51]
A
Yeah.
- [79:52]
B
So I just think he made. Always made timeless pieces.
- [79:56]
A
Yeah, no doubt.
- [79:57]
B
But I got a little time. It just depends, you know, Like I said, people thought I was joking when I talked about shopping. And I really meant to say TJ Maxx, because, you know, back in the day, you could buy a defected Ralph Lauren shirt.
- [80:12]
A
One little button. Come on, man. Who didn't go through the bins?
- [80:14]
B
And my sister. He had a little hole in it. My sister would go and sew that little thing up. That thing is crispy Gordon Garfield. But when you talk about brand positioning, the fact that you can buy a Ralph's shirt out of TJ Maxx and then go right to the local mall, the department store, and buy a Ralph's shirt there. And there's no real you didn't feel any different type of way shows how strong the brand was.
- [80:37]
A
But, see, sports fans, see, that's what you're into. Sports fans can do two things with anything. They can bracket them up, which is really a contest or they could put them in a list. We could do that with designers. You could bracket up designers to see who not for this year, meets in the finals.
- [80:52]
B
No, no, no, you can. Max, we can't do this right now.
- [80:54]
A
Why?
- [80:54]
B
Because it's Monday and I have a real job. I have to go.
- [80:57]
A
Oh, we don't do it on this episode.
- [80:59]
B
Okay, I'm just gonna get off on these rants. You just made me do one. We supposed to been done five minutes ago.
- [81:04]
A
Steelers, Texans, real quick. Like, they're all young quarterbacks in the AFC looking to build their legacy. Except Aaron Rodgers, who, you're right. It would be like George Foreman winning the title. Got boxing into the show a lot. But George Foreman winning the title 20 years after he lost. If Aaron Rodgers can win a title, win the super bowl with Mike Tomlin this many years after he won it in green bay with McCarthy as a 42 year old. He has elevated himself big for Aaron. Like he would be right back where he belongs based on his talent. Cause right now he's not mentioned with Brady and even Mahomes or Peyton. Exactly. When you talk about the very best ever, usually Rodgers is a couple notches below where he ought to be. But he would be right where he should be if he wins the Super Bowl.
- [81:54]
B
Well, it would be the perfect beginning for Stroud and the Texans and the perfect ending for Rodgers and Tomlinson.
- [82:03]
A
Let's leave it like that.
- [82:04]
B
That's what it would be.
- [82:05]
A
Game over. Max Kellerman, Rich Paul.
- [82:07]
B
Please subscribe. And by the way, please leave in the comments to Max some of this craziness he talks about, because we talk about it together. And he's like. But I want to hear from you guys in terms of your opinion on some of the things that he has a take on some of your takes.
- [82:24]
A
I don't.
- [82:24]
B
I mean, some of your takes is a little out there.
- [82:28]
A
All right, well, by the way, Wednesday, we'll be back here Wednesday and Wednesday.
- [82:33]
B
I think we should give them.
- [82:35]
A
You want to read some hate mail on Wednesday?
- [82:37]
B
We can either.
- [82:38]
A
I can read you hate mail for you. You read my hate mail?
- [82:41]
B
Yeah, I can. That's cool.
- [82:43]
A
Let's do it.
- [82:43]
B
But also, we can do either our 90s sitcom or do we go 2000. From 2000 to 2010. Top albums. Cause we got a lot of flacks.
- [82:54]
A
We did 90s.
- [82:55]
B
We got a lot of flack for that.
- [82:57]
A
Yeah, we could do 2,000 top albums. We left off 90s sitcoms.
- [82:59]
B
Eh, okay, okay. But we left off Ready to Die, which I didn't want to just include Ray. I didn't want to include Biggie or Pac. Just. I mean, that would have been like.
- [83:08]
A
I just gave you my three favorites, and I love Biggie.
- [83:11]
B
Okay. You know, But I'm just saying Ready to Die was a classic. I mean, not right. That was too. But Life After Death was Life After Death was one of the best albums ever made.
- [83:19]
A
He flipped your guy's style out of Cleveland as well as they. He. He did Bone Thugs as well as they did it on that.
- [83:24]
B
Yes, he did. That was incredible. But Bone's the only group to have a song with Pac and Biggie.
- [83:28]
A
Wow. All right, Wednesday Wednesday must be 21 and over in present select states for Kansas, an affiliation with the Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New.