Previewing Game 2, and the Most Clutch Players in the Major Sports | Game Over

Summary

Podcast Summary: Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Previewing Game 2, and the Most Clutch Players in the Major Sports
Release Date: June 5, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Overview

In this episode of Game Over, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into NBA Finals dynamics, focusing on the Knicks’ transformative trades and previewing Game 2. The duo celebrates front office strategy, discusses what makes players “clutch” across sports, speculates on Jalen Brunson’s ascension, and paint a vibrant picture of sports culture in New York. The episode blends basketball analysis, lively debate, and behind-the-scenes storytelling, rounded out by a high-spirited rapport between Max and Rich.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Knicks’ Trade Moves – Building a Contender

[09:05–18:29]

• Both hosts agree the Knicks’ blockbuster trades for OG Anunoby and Karl-Anthony Towns (KAT) were transformative.

• Max lauds the Knicks for “turning two 50-cent pieces into a dollar” by swapping depth pieces and contracts for premiere talent.

• Rich Paul breaks down the front office’s “non-traditional” approach, particularly in identifying OG Anunoby as a “max player” tailored to their needs.

  • “If we can get this guy who is one of the best three-and-D guys we feel in the league... injuries aside, big body, shoots the ball pretty well, pretty athletic, defends, low maintenance guy, he’s a max player to us. And I agree with [the Knicks].” (Rich Paul, [11:53])

• The pair dissect why Minnesota was willing to part with KAT and debate if draft compensation and DiVincenzo’s upside made sense for the Wolves.

• Max emphasizes, “In the history of the NBA, almost always the team that gets the best player in the deal wins the trade.” ([18:17])

2. Knicks vs. Spurs – Game 2 Adjustments and Matchups

[21:50–26:10]

• Rich prompts Max on tactical adjustments for the Spurs entering Game 2—especially the need for better execution in non-value possessions when leading.
• Discussion centers on the importance of De’Aaron Fox’s performance, Wemby’s defensive presence, and how both teams need to tighten up — particularly when holding momentum.
  • “When you're up 13, 14... You have to be precise. You have to be precise.” (Max Kellerman, [23:46])
• Highlight on Knicks' resilience: Despite not playing their best, they erased a 15-point road deficit to win, embodying championship mettle.

3. The Power of New York Sports Culture

[33:24–39:18]

• The hosts revel in the electric atmosphere surrounding Knicks playoff games in New York. Max recounts humorous fan stories and the quirks of home-court fandom.

• They bemoan the Spurs’ restrictive jersey policies and poke fun at fan subterfuge.

• Rich notes, “You have to monitor that”— alluding to the logistical chaos, fervor, and sense of community that descends on New York during playoff runs.

• Unique New York stat: Crime reportedly drops by 70% during Knicks games because "everyone's watching." ([37:02])

  • “If the Knicks would have been better all these years, crime rate would have been down!” (Rich Paul, [37:24])

• They praise Knicks owner James Dolan for at last getting out of the way and letting basketball people run the franchise, noting the culture shift.

4. Clutch Gene: The Most Clutch Players in Major Sports

[41:20–47:22]

• Sparked by Jalen Brunson’s play, Max and Rich debate who are the modern and all-time “clutch” athletes in baseball, football, and basketball.
• Football:
  • Joe Montana takes honors for his Super Bowl heroics and “Joe Cool” aura.
  • Max: “MT 40 and Super Bowls, 13 TD, zero picks...” ([43:54])
• Baseball:
  • Mariano Rivera (pitcher), George Brett, David Ortiz, Freddie Freeman, Don Mattingly among those named for coming through in key moments.
• Basketball:
  • Michael Jordan and LeBron (with the ball late, shot on the line).
  • For clutch outside the big two: Rich nominates Brunson over Kyrie Irving, stating:
    • “I think Brunson over Kyrie. And, by the way, I would take Kyrie... might be the most skillful player ever, and he's super clutch. But, I would take Brunson.” ([45:48])
  • Max raises the question: “If you’re the best when it matters most... you might be the best [player] in the world. And that might be Jalen Brunson.” ([32:17])

5. The Influence of Basketball Neighborhood Culture

[51:12–54:47]

• Max and Rich reflect on the transmission of basketball wisdom, “ghostwriting,” and the way ideas spread from neighborhood games, family, and everyday experiences.
• Anecdotes about dice games, learning by osmosis, and how neighborhood humor and philosophy enter sports commentary.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On New York fandom:
  “I had a lot of friends there last night…they were going bonkers." (Max Kellerman, [33:28])
• On the clutch gene:
  “If a player is at most points maybe a half a hair below the very, very best, but then when it matters most, he is the best, he might be the best. And that might be Jalen Brunson.” (Rich Paul, [32:17])
• On the Spurs’ jersey policy:
  “That’s a horrible rule, by the way. That should be illegal in sports.” (Rich Paul, [34:08])
• On how trades determine contender status:
  “If you substitute Karl Anthony Towns with almost anyone in the NBA, the Knicks are not this team right now.” (Rich Paul, [18:43])
• Classic banter:
  “You want me to bring up every time you’re late?” (Rich Paul, [02:57])

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Episode Flow & Timestamps

• [01:02–06:51] Light banter, Spike Lee talk, and cinematic sports culture.
• [09:05–18:29] Deep dive into Knicks’ trades for OG Anunoby and KAT—philosophy and impact.
• [21:50–26:10] Spurs’ adjustments and Knicks' tactical strengths heading into Game 2.
• [33:24–39:18] New York playoff atmosphere, fan stories, Knicks franchise history, and city culture.
• [41:20–47:22] Debate: the most clutch players in team sports history.
• [51:12–54:47] Reflections on wisdom, ghostwriting, and neighborhood lessons in basketball.
• [54:55–56:20] Lighthearted close: golf plans, jokes, and friendship.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a treasure trove for basketball and sports fans—insights on front office strategy, what defines “clutch,” and the magic of New York playoff basketball. Max and Rich's chemistry drives smart discussions with storytelling that goes beyond the box score, mixing laughs, wisdom, and cultural connections. Listeners come away with a richer understanding of how teams pivot to win, how legacies are shaped in fourth quarters, and how the spirit of the city and the soul of the sport intertwine.

Transcript

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[Max Kellerman]

Max. Yeah, straight to the whiteboard. Why you have to write I will not be late like Bart Simpson.

[Rich Paul]

You know me, I'm on 100 times. I'm almost always on time.

[Max Kellerman]

What happened?

[Rich Paul]

So I had an Uber cancel on me.

[Max Kellerman]

The old Uber canceled on me. True.

[Rich Paul]

Drink. Okay, I figured I'll take a lift now. In Uber, when you type in the address to where we are now, it takes you to the place. Lyft did not take me to the same place. It took me to the Spurs Arena. That happens to be a half hour in the other direction.

[Max Kellerman]

Mm.

[Rich Paul]

Which supposed to take a half an hour. The guy tried to take a scoop, a shortcut. The ramp is closed. Because the ramp is closed, we're not moving. It's hot and humid in San Antonio. He had a Tesla with a glass roof. If the car is not moving, the car is hot.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, my God.

[Rich Paul]

Now, was it the best smell in the car? I'll say it wasn't. Let's just put it that way. I spent an hour just now getting here. Should take 15 minutes, so.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, you know what? That's not going to get you out of the.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's just an excuse. 100 times the chalkboard excuse doesn't get you there.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, no, it's okay. But we got a good show today. Yeah, as you can see, time. Of course.

[Rich Paul]

This guy doesn't care if. When the show starts. As long. No. You know, unless the tea time is affected. You could have a meeting later. It doesn't matter. But if your tea time is affected.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, I was here early. Jacoby met me outside. I've gotten makeup twice. I've had hummus. You still wasn't here.

[Rich Paul]

So true.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't want you to think about my tea time.

[Rich Paul]

But, but hold on. You want me to bring up every time you're late?

[Max Kellerman]

We're not talking about that. We're talking about today.

[Rich Paul]

You missed the line. It's. Why are you bringing up old stuff?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm just saying we talking about today. I want to talk about today.

[Rich Paul]

So I accept responsibility.

[Max Kellerman]

Good.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, Spike Lee, we got Spike.

[Max Kellerman]

I talked to Spike last night.

[Rich Paul]

I heard he likes the Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

You think? I talked to Spike last night and I said, spike, would you do the show? And he said, of course I would. And I tried to get him here last night because he was staying overnight. And he said, I said, you know what? Let's just do it in New York.

[Rich Paul]

Sure.

[Max Kellerman]

And he said, because he said, could I do it by phone? I said, you know what, Spike, let's just do it.

[Rich Paul]

Better to do Spike in New York. Yeah, that's where it belongs. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

So by the way, I'm a follow back up with him. We may have to go to 40 acres in a mule.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, been there.

[Max Kellerman]

But if we do that, that's fine. I'm sure he has all the production cameras and things that we ever see.

[Rich Paul]

She's got to have It.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

So first, so, so I, I'm, I saw in the paper or something like that when I was a kid, some, some movie reviewer said, because he also starred in She's Gotta have It, it was his almost like a student film. It's like his first film out of NYU film school. And the reviewers like, as far as I'm concerned, Eddie Murphy has a little brother. In other words, there's like a funny black guy who's younger than Eddie Murphy. Right. So, but, but you know, that worked on me. I'm like, I love Eddie Murphy. Let me go check this out. And I was like, wait, he's nothing like Eddie Murphy. But the movie was like, obviously he was a very talented filmmaker. And you can see he did it on no budget. I think he shot it in like a month. And it was a great flick. She's got to have It. And in She's Got to have it, that's where Mars Blackman comes from.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And he's arguing Bernard King in the movie over Larry Bird, which I was a Knicks fan doing the same thing. We all knew it wasn't true, but Bernard King was so good that you could actually take that position back then. And yeah, he's a nice fan for real.

[Max Kellerman]

Spike made so many movies that he tied in sports, obviously tied in culture. He tied in all the things that was happening in front of us as people, as a nation, as a country.

[Rich Paul]

Do the Right Thing is one of the best movies ever made. And the reason to me is because, like, I heard John Turo talk about this, how he wanted to play the character. Spike had another idea, but he gave the actors latitude to play it certain ways that became. Even though it's called do the Right Thing and it's supposed to be kind of a cut and dried message, it's a. It's complicated. Like, the movie is complicated. The choices are complicated, even as the overarching principle is simple. Right. Always do the right thing. What is the right thing? To whom is that right? And all that kind of stuff and. And the whole Malcolm Martin thing. Right. Do you. Do you work within the system or do you try to break it?

[Max Kellerman]

Mm.

[Rich Paul]

Like that. That was. That's one of those examples of like a Shakespearean level idea executed to like. I really think that's one of the best movies ever made.

[Max Kellerman]

No, listen. Do the right. My dad took us to the movies to see do the Right Thing. I didn't understand what I was watching at first in certain parts, but then there were certain parts I, like, stepped on his Jordans and, you know, the boombox and. And the whole nine school days watching that with my sister, understanding that they took us to. I remember I was in the fifth grade, I believe, or the sixth grade. Fifth or sixth. And I was the only person, one of few people that stayed up to watch the whole entire Malcolm X movie.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Malcolm. By the way, how do you take that book and how do you take that book and turn it into a movie? Like, the movie is on is for a movie that is on the level that the book is on for a book. Right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Like, that doesn't. Normally the book is better than the

[Rich Paul]

movie, of course, but, I mean, books are better than. But, but, but, like, that was such an ambitious thing to do.

[Max Kellerman]

It was. And it was. And at that time, it was a very. I would say. I don't know if the word was dangerous, but it was. It was a tough thing. It was tougher. I've had conversations with Denzel about that role and. But when you think about it was some of the best, from his point was some of the best acting. That's Denzel's best, that anybody could have done.

[Rich Paul]

Denzel was so good at Malcolm as Malcolm X. That went. And by the way, somehow transformed himself to look exact.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, it was unbelievable.

[Rich Paul]

He. But he was so good at Malcolm X that you could think about Malcolm X and be thinking about Denzel. No, like, it was ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's when the actor is really good. So hopefully we get Spike.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Wait, hopefully? I thought. I'm teasing it. Like, he's in.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm. But you. You know, you got to. I said I had to follow up. I said that. So if we get him, we get

[Rich Paul]

them cut, take this whole thing out.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, listen, I would rather have Spike seats than Spike.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but. But spikes for those seats.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. He does pay a lot of money for. Whoa. Him and Al.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I send three girls to private school their whole education, so I know by the end, if I start adding it up and going, like, oh, my God, look what I spent.

[Max Kellerman]

Not those seats.

[Rich Paul]

Spike Lee.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. So. But come on, we got a show tonight. Max.

[Rich Paul]

2424-240834-14242-408341 game over. Spotify.com are we going to do a voicemail today? We're not going to do a voicemail today.

[Max Kellerman]

No voicemail.

[Rich Paul]

No, we're not going to do it. We're on the road.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, if you don't take forever to get through the show, we can get a voicemail in.

[Rich Paul]

Are you quite done?

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

All right. You want to do emails?

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe we could do one.

[Rich Paul]

Huh?

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe one.

[Rich Paul]

We're gonna do an email. We're not doing it. Jacoby says no voicemails, no emails.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, Jacoby's the boss.

[Rich Paul]

He's trying to get you to your. To your tea time.

[Max Kellerman]

I. Listen, I gave my tea time extra time.

[Rich Paul]

Did you?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, because I knew that you would take long. This is why I did it. I had to have a cushion. Yeah, actually, I thought you would want to get some chips and salsa and.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. Who doesn't want chips and salsa?

[Max Kellerman]

So. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

All right, we ready to go?

[Max Kellerman]

Let's do it.

[Rich Paul]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Max Kellerman]

Game [e-mail] Me Cat played great last night. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, he did what it brings to mind. And OG Doesn't. Didn't have his best game offensively.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but he had a spurt.

[Rich Paul]

He did. But he was very conscious. Wemby's presence, you could see, made OG Conscious all game. And as good as he. He has an offense, but he's not as good offensively as Cat. So Cat was. I thought Wemby's presence made Cat a better offensive player because it made him have to kind of be perfect at times. And he was at times. But what those two guys made, like what the game made me think of, especially Cat, is, you know, I'm always saying, you know, in the NBA, you can't ever break a dollar into four quarters. Like, if you have a dollar player, you don't break them into four useful players because you want to do it the other way, turn four quarters into a dollar. I mean, this is what Jerry Buss famously told Kobe Bryant when Kobe wanted to trade, he was like, Kobe, I'm not taking a 5 carat diamond and getting back five 1 carat diamonds. It's not going to happen. Right. Kobe understood. That's what the Knicks did in both those cases is they trade quarters into a dollar. I can't, I couldn't believe at the time when I was like, the Knicks got OG Anunoby for what? For Barrett and Quickley.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And a second round pick. They got OG Anunoby. How'd they do that? And with Kat and I, I was such a big DiVincenzo fan. And I love the Nova Knicks thing. I think it helps them, but I'm still a huge Divincelvanian. For Julius Randle and Dante DiVincenzo, you got Carl Anthony Towns.

[Max Kellerman]

That's like an insane.

[Rich Paul]

Those two trades are why the Knicks are in this position.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, but those two trades. At the time of the trade, OG was not looked at as a max

[Rich Paul]

player because of injury, mostly.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, but he just wasn't. Production injury. He just wasn't looked at as that. But here's, here's why I give.

[Rich Paul]

But we all thought like, man, if

[Max Kellerman]

he ever gets healthy, I'm saying dollar amount.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Max Kellerman]

But from as, as it pertains to value on a team, this is why these things matter. And this is why you have to tip your hat to the Knicks front office. Because it, because they, they, they are non traditional. We talked about this being non traditional. They're not looking at it the same way the rest of the landscape is looking at it. Okay, you guys don't think he should be paid a max contract, right? We do. And not only do we think that, we think he would have a tremendous amount of value on this roster, and because of that, we are willing to pay him a max contract.

[Rich Paul]

You're saying that part of the trade was. That was a team that felt not only will we trade these assets, we'll pay him what he wants, of course, yes, because. So we'll keep them.

[Max Kellerman]

And I'm not saying that that's. That was the perception around the league for everyone. But I'm saying he was not a max player coming off of max. But for the Knicks, they're saying, forget all of that. If we can get this guy who is one of the best three and D guys we feel in the league, injuries aside, big body shot, shoots the ball pretty well, pretty athletic, defends low maintenance guy, he. He's a max player to us. And I agree with him.

[Rich Paul]

I think he's so much more than, you know, like, for example, I would say Mikhail Bridges is a 3 and D plus guy. I think OG is more than that. OG is like. I mean, he was. When Draymond Green, when they were saying, hey, does Draymond Green deserve a max contract or not?

[Max Kellerman]

They were saying no. People were saying, no.

[Rich Paul]

But I was thinking, are you kidding? Of course he's worth a max contract. He makes that whole team.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course. But here's what I'm saying, everybody that's on a max contract, you don't have to equate it to stats all the time. If you take OG's enterprise value to the New York Knicks and equate what he does on the floor night in and night out, who doesn't he have that value for?

[Rich Paul]

OG works on any team in basketball, he would only make any team better.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree with that. And anybody could have had him. Why didn't they go and get him?

[Rich Paul]

It's. This is what I'm saying. The cat thing I get. There was a reputation of. He's maybe a little underachieving, what his projections were out of college. I'm not saying he wasn't very good, but he wasn't. As I said, like, it wasn't like, who's better, Embiid, Jokic, AD or Cat or Giannis? He wasn't quite in that conversation, and by then, maybe he should have been. So I understand why it would be like, maybe he's available. But even then I'm like, well, they got him for a steal. But the cat, og.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, my God, the cat nothing. The cat thing was a different part of Cap situation. They had paid Rudy Ants money on the books. Cat's money on the books. That was a number thing. You had to pay Nas Reed.

[Rich Paul]

They felt they needed a defensive stopper.

[Max Kellerman]

Someone had to be out, and it happened to be Cat. That was a. That was a. Again, that was a numbers thing.

[Rich Paul]

But if you're moving a guy Like Cat, if I am, I need to make sure that the draft compensation that I'm getting back allows me to pick so high up that I'm likely to get another all Star. You know, they got Julius Randle, who honestly on the Knicks, I feel like that's addition by subtraction. And they. And giving up DiVincenzo was painful, but at the time I'm like, yeah, it's painful, but you gotta do it. It's Karl Anthony Towns. You have to do it. But. And that's the difference between the Knicks now and. And the Knicks at any point in the past is they weren't the team that was smart enough to grab Cat and OG On a discount. You know, it was some other.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know if it's a discount because both of those guys were on the max.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm saying on a discount. What you got up, gave up for it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but you have to.

[Rich Paul]

And Jalen Brunson's contract allowed all that too.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, true. But that's not how it works though. Max.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't say, oh well, the Minnesota should have got more for Cat is what was out there. Right. Some teams may not have wanted to take back his contract, so on so forth. So they got. They was getting back. I think at the time. I think Julius had one year left on his deal. So they were.

[Rich Paul]

You have to buy. It could be an expiring.

[Max Kellerman]

Look at all of these things. That's why sometimes when things are said in media, it. I understand how you. How. How people are looking at it, but there's a lot. It's a lot more.

[Rich Paul]

Here's. Here's how I could say it would be. Even with all that considered, the only way I could see that trade from the T Wolves point of view is if they look at DiVincenzo, saw how he played in the playoffs and thought. People look at. In the kind of the way Morey looked at Harden. Maybe not that extreme, but people look at DiVincenzo as like a league average starter. But in fact we think he has all star potential. If that was what they were thinking, which I could understand because DiVincenzo before the injury was going like this. If that's what they were thinking, fine. And short of that, they got.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't, I don't think that's the case case. Because you're, you're thinking that, okay, originally we drafted Cat. He was our number one guy. We get the number one pick again, here comes Ant. So now you have to build around Ant. Different styles of play. You need to have those. Those wing guys around them. You already have a stretch four, sometimes stretch five in. In Nas Reed, you got Rudy Gobert at the five who's more of our rim protector. And you got a guy like Jay McDaniels who's another guy 6. So you understand how it looks. And again after we call this in the gambling house at Winks, after cars where everyone's sitting.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I'm. No, I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying the cars that you once played already during the hand.

[Rich Paul]

I'm saying during the hand. I hear everything you're saying. At the time, the T Wolves got undervalued stuff under the Value of Cat because the draft compensation did not allow them to maybe go pick an all Star. And so what I'm saying is if they thought maybe Dante DiVincenzo could be an all Star, by the way, if he ever really gets healthy for a whole season, I wouldn't rule that out. He's an excellent and unrelated player.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know if they thought that, but I do believe they thought that he could be a tremendous asset team. The other thing is Nick's turned two

[Rich Paul]

50 cent pieces into a dollar.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course. Listen, any team, if you have any team and you have Cat and OG on your team already, you're in pretty safe.

[Rich Paul]

You're halfway home.

[Max Kellerman]

But also kudos to the Knicks recognizing that these two guys had to go. OG was on a different timeline than the Raptors was. They had drafted Scottie Barnes. So actually he's playing the position. Then you get a guy like RJ Baer, who's from Toronto. The Knicks had paid him. The Knicks that paid him, I think the 130 and. And then you have Emmanuel Quickley who they needed a guard. So it actually made a lot of sense.

[Rich Paul]

I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. No. I'll tell you why. No. If I'm running an NBA team, Rich, I have to at least have a chance in that deal or happen, if I have to at least have a chance in the deal to get the best player in the deal. In other words, if there's draft compensation where I have a reasonable shot. So to wind up when all is said and done with it, because in the history of the NBA, almost always the team that gets the best player in the deal wins the trade.

[Max Kellerman]

But those.

[Rich Paul]

And the Knicks did twice.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but those two teams are at different points. You can't say that, Max.

[Rich Paul]

They're at different points no matter what Point you're on. If you don't get the better. The best player in the deal, you probably lost the deal.

[Max Kellerman]

Says the. So here's the thing. OG was on a contract where I either trade him or he walks out the door for nothing.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's okay. Under those circumstances, the best you could do is quickly embarrass.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, maybe that's what they thought.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not here to diss anyone else. I'm here to praise the Knicks front office. Yes, the Knicks front office. Watching that game last night, it's like this doesn't. If you don't. If you substitute Karl Anthony Towns with almost anyone else in the NBA, the Knicks are not this team right now.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know about that, but who

[Rich Paul]

else are you gonna. Who else are you gonna put? Like the names you would mention?

[Max Kellerman]

Because if I say the names, then it'd be.

[Rich Paul]

I'll say. I'll say something.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich said that this person should be traded to the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

I'll say the names. If you want to talk about Giannis, the Knicks might still be this good, but they'd be a little different. The shooting wouldn't be as good. If you want to talk about.

[Max Kellerman]

Different style of play.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Jokic, okay. He could do a lot of the stuff the cat is doing.

[Max Kellerman]

They're in the same place, if not better.

[Rich Paul]

Listen to the names I'm saying. I'm saying names that are basically unattainable. I mean, Giannis is going to be attainable now if they put him on the block. But we've been saying that for years still in the same place.

[Max Kellerman]

That's kudos to Katt.

[Rich Paul]

No question.

[Max Kellerman]

We talked about this on the last show where you said. It was a couple shows ago where you said coming out, you named the names. You were saying like that he was. Had this potential and he's fulfilling it now.

[Rich Paul]

No question.

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[Rich Paul]

So good.

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[Rich Paul]

You mentioned some adjustments for the spurs in game two.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Side picking rolls and what else?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, listen, I just think that. I know, I know there's a lot of experts out there, right? And you look at what happened in game one and you. You feel like, you know, this person probably should have played more. This person probably should have played less. Let's be clear, right? And this is not Mr. Bias. This is just Mr. Fact on this one. The spurs wouldn't be here without de' Aaron Fox, right? Does he have to play better? Absolutely. He has to play better and he will play better. But he also has to be himself, right?

[Rich Paul]

Can he be physically right now, you hear?

[Max Kellerman]

So you don't make excuses. We're in the finals. The next thing is, you know, the shooting piece. The spurs have to shoot better, right? In order for them to maintain leads. I thought out of all of that, Cass was not playing as well as he probably could. De' Aaron not playing as well as he probably could. Wimby had the stats, but he. But he didn't play his best game either. Vasale didn't really have the shot going like he normally does. So Harper and Champagne in the first half really kept things going with the league. I thought de' Aaron done some great things getting into the lane and making some facilitating. I thought at the end of the half putting Brunson in the pick and roll slip, you know, splitting the screen and then forcing that low man over with Champagne to get to corner three. That's him at his best. Right? So. But that wasn't the game I thought, and I'll say this again, went up the only outside of second chance points. The only thing that, that I was really, really, really viewing as a glaring, glaring issue was non, non value possessions.

[Rich Paul]

When you've been there, it's been an issue for the team.

[Max Kellerman]

When you're up 13, whole playoffs when you up 13, 14. Now we gotta, we gotta be precise. You have to be precise. You have to be precise. I didn't think the Knicks played their best game at all.

[Rich Paul]

You know, one of the things about people think you need to hunt Jalen Brunson. He's a better defender than people realize. Yeah, you know, he's, he's like. He is a. But they mentioned on the broadcast like last night, he's effective, but sometimes the hunting gets his hands.

[Max Kellerman]

Just like when you try to hunt step. Yeah, you could try to hunt those guys. But it's one thing to be hunted and not give an effort. It's another thing to be hunted and give an effort. Right. There's some guys that you hunt and they give an effort. You're not. Listen, it's the NBA. You're not stopping somebody one on one, Right? Try it. You're not. But with that being said, I thought last night the Knicks did not play their best game and still won.

[Rich Paul]

Wait, they were down 15. They were down 15 on the road, but they've always come back who just knocked off the champs and came back to win by double digits. And I agree with you, they did

[Max Kellerman]

not play, did not play the best game. I thought, you know, between, between the Brunson injuries, two guys helped him early on. Alvarado came in and had a spark.

[Rich Paul]

By the way, when it looked like Brunson got a leg issue, this could be a real, like if it was

[Max Kellerman]

10, the league was 10. And they held it.

[Rich Paul]

They held.

[Max Kellerman]

Not only did they hold it, they decreased the lead.

[Rich Paul]

And you're talking. When you say Alvarado came in, that's what you're really asking for from non de' Aaron Fox Spurs. Alvarado didn't do incredible stuff. He just held it down.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

He made smart plays. He played a responsible point point guard.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

And it kept them in the game. And whatever Fox is doing, they need at least one more player on that team to calm down and just play

[Max Kellerman]

a responsible point guard. I think that the ball is going to have to be again for the clipping. I want to make sure. I think that de' Aaron playing the role of setting pace and tempo is going to be a big plus for the spurs if they can get there, because I think it sets the table.

[Rich Paul]

They got their work cut out for them because now the new stat I saw and I want to give this. It's the same guy. You know what? I'm giving them credit right now.

[Max Kellerman]

We don't have time.

[Rich Paul]

I got. I'm giving them credit right now. No, no, not going. I'm not doing another one where I don't give this guy credit because I've been.

[Max Kellerman]

Send him a. Send him some flowers.

[Rich Paul]

Like, I've been using his stuff because it's been really good. I thought I put it in the group text.

[Max Kellerman]

That doesn't sound.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe I. Oh, you've been using this stuff. I did this to Simmons the other day on his podcast, too. Oh, here it is. Lev Acabas. Okay, this is where I got it from. Lev A K A B A S. The Knicks have outscored. Now, he's not the only one with this stat, but I like his charts. The Knicks have outscored their opponents by 272 points in the last 12 games.

[Max Kellerman]

I seen this, Max.

[Rich Paul]

That's the best 12 game stretch in

[Max Kellerman]

the history of the NBA in the history playoffs. You know what, Max? You just made me realize something. Now I have to go all the way back.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Nothing you ever said on TV was your idea.

[Rich Paul]

It's not true. I've plenty of ideas.

[Max Kellerman]

No, it was not.

[Rich Paul]

Of course. Like who else was saying in the middle of this season, the spurs win the title? Unless maybe the Knicks come out of the East. They could upset the Spurs. Who said that? In the middle of the season? Was there anyone else?

[Max Kellerman]

And are you ready for this? Was that. I don't think the idea of you wanting Igadala was your idea. I don't know whose it was.

[Rich Paul]

Perhaps the most original thinker on the planet Earth.

[Max Kellerman]

You have a ghost writer.

[Rich Paul]

Why do you think. Why do you think I give people credit? I'm meticulous about giving people credit.

[Max Kellerman]

So you picked the Spurs.

[Rich Paul]

Unless the Knicks came out of the East. I said they could Set the app.

[Max Kellerman]

We don't have that on tape anymore. We lost it.

[Rich Paul]

It's. I think it's on Netflix.

[Max Kellerman]

No, it's on Neil's motorcycle. It fell off the back going down Santa Monica.

[Rich Paul]

But. But listen, the reason I bring that up, Rich, is at a certain point, maybe it's just like this Knicks team is too much for.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, sometimes teams are destined.

[Rich Paul]

Like the Dallas team. A lot has been made of, like LeBron in his first year with Dwyane Wade, everything. But do people forget the Dallas team was making mincemeat of the league at that point?

[Max Kellerman]

How about this? Jalen Brunson is in position to get a ring before Luka. I mean. Yeah, he's here.

[Rich Paul]

He's here.

[Max Kellerman]

And you know that. That tandem they played.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, Jalen Brunson, you know what's interesting? You would say this guy plays a kind of basketball that can win a championship. This guy doesn't. This guy does. This guy doesn't. You look at Luka, it's like James Harden, that's not going to win a championship. But there were times where you could look at Brunson also and be like, that's not going to get it done. First of all, he's too small to be a stopper defensively. And then secondly, he is on the ball so much that it. That it's not conducive to championship kind of basketball. That's not really Brunson. That's the way he's being used as soon as Mike Brown makes the tweak and now Cat is on. Is like running the offense as much as he is now. Now you look at Brunson, you go, that's championship.

[Max Kellerman]

They split up a championship backcourt with those two. With Luca and Brunson.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. If you think of Luca. Well, do you think. I think of Luca as a. As a three at that point? If he's with Brunson.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, I'm glad you brought that point up.

[Rich Paul]

We're even a four.

[Max Kellerman]

Remember we were talking about Cade?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You want a guy like.

[Max Kellerman]

Same recipe.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And Cade is even more of a point guard. But.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, it just gives you optionality. Yeah, it gives you. Now obviously, Luca shoots it better, but Cade shoots it Great. And Cade's great, but it just gives you optionality.

[Rich Paul]

You want a little. You want. In this case, you want maybe a guy like Berries to. To. To play with Cade. Perhaps someone like that.

[Max Kellerman]

A guy doesn't have the pick that high.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm saying I'll take someone like that. A combo Guard with some size, with some shooting who can play on and off.

[Max Kellerman]

But here's what I'd say to you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

In this case, the fact that Brunson is doing it without somebody else of that level.

[Rich Paul]

Well, it's Kat. Kat is the Draymond.

[Narrator/Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm saying in a different form.

[Rich Paul]

You know what? They split Draymond into three players on this Knicks team. Draymond is part og, Part Cat, and part. And part heart. That's Draymond.

[Max Kellerman]

That is true.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. They split Draymond into. But. But Kat shoots better than Draymond.

[Max Kellerman]

Dream. I WISH he was 7ft tall. Probably not 7ft. He probably wishes he was, like, 6, 10.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. But they. But they. He, like, they have guys who can do. Maybe none of those guys can handle and create like him. They can't run the offense like him, maybe. Who, Cat?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I mean, I think the differentiator with those three, plus him, and they all are high IQ ballplayers. Draymond's iq.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, I just thought it was interesting because when I look back, I saw a clip and I was like. And actually, I was just talking to Jalen over at the hotel a little bit, and I. It reminded me that the last time I actually was. So he was on the Mavericks, right. They were playing the warriors in the Western Conference finals. I want to say. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

By the way, I think it's a legitimate question to ask. And the thing about it is, Rich, I. I don't care what people say. The question must be asked if Jalen Brunson's the best player in the world, because if you're the best when it matters most, and you're almost like. If you are almost as good as anyone in the world at all times, and then when it matters most, you are easily the best in the world.

[Max Kellerman]

I think when you.

[Rich Paul]

That makes you maybe the best in the world.

[Max Kellerman]

I think when you win a title as the best player, you should. You earn the right to be called the best player in the world.

[Rich Paul]

World. At least in that conversation.

[Max Kellerman]

When Giannis did it, he was. Obviously. When LeBron did it, he was. When Steph did it, he was.

[Rich Paul]

But when LeBron even didn't do it, some years, he was.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Rich Paul]

That's like. I'm not claiming that. That this guy is so much better than everyone else, that whether or not he wins the champion, but if you are able to use this guy in the way that Mike Brown has unlocked and the fourth quarter scoring, the fact that on paper, they, they probably shouldn't be this good. The whole thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I, I mean, I love high leverage. I think that if a player is at most points maybe a half a hair below the very, very best, but then when it matters most, he is the best, he might be the best. And that might be Jalen Brunson.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Josh Hart.

[Max Kellerman]

Have no argument there.

[Rich Paul]

Josh Hart. Meantime, three points, 15 boards.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't care about Josh Hart's points.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Doesn't bother me one bit.

[Rich Paul]

They won by 10. But the thing about Hart, and I've been saying it all along, he gets hot sometimes when he, he, he. I think he had the best plus minus in the game last night. That's with him not shooting it. He starts to hit those shots.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, well, he. How do you beat him? Well, I don't count his shooting last night because he, he never got a chance to get rhythm right. He got in foul trouble early, missed

[Rich Paul]

one or two threes and.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, but they put him back in. He picked up a third really fast and so that can bring forth frustration. But at the end of the day,

[Rich Paul]

at the end of the game, he's diving for loose balls.

[Max Kellerman]

Heart to guy. You watch on the floor when it comes time to win a game. Simple as that.

[Rich Paul]

How to feel with those Knick fans in the building?

[Max Kellerman]

This. I had a lot of, A lot of friends there last night that were Nick fans and they were going bonkers. I mean, the stuff that they say is, is, it's not funny, but it is funny. I had a friend last night, I know a long time, and he's like, he's like the ranch dressing. We only have ranch dressing in new. In New York, but you guys have ranches here. Didn't understand it. Didn't know what he was talking about.

[Rich Paul]

Don't do that because it's not funny. But you gotta be. You gotta. It has to be clever, you know,

[Max Kellerman]

I'm like, what, the Spurs? I've been to Kelton Johnson's ranch. I actually loved it. So I didn't understand what he was talking about.

[Rich Paul]

What were the spurs doing? On the one hand, they do this stupid rule. You can't wear Knicks jerseys. It will take away your tickets. That's a horrible rule, by the way. That should be illegal in sports. That's number one. But number two, it's like a big misstep by the spurs, in my opinion, which is a great organization. But number two, if you're going to do that, why would you Hand out orange T shirts.

[Max Kellerman]

It wasn't like orange, it was like sherbert.

[Rich Paul]

Why don't they, while you're at it, spurs hand out blue T shirts. Have them sitting right next to each other.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm telling you, when I'm spurs handout.

[Rich Paul]

Why did they hand out to their fans? I thought it was a Knicks section.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Then I saw some Knicks fans actually put the T shirt on.

[Rich Paul]

Of course. Why wouldn't you?

[Max Kellerman]

How diabolical is that? You such a fan that you anything orange you think is yours?

[Rich Paul]

So could you wear a Knicks hat there?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So if I have a Knicks hat on and they hand out an orange T shirt.

[Max Kellerman]

Spurs didn't enforce it like other teams because there was. There was a lot of Knicks fans on the floor last night, right?

[Rich Paul]

No, you can be a fan, but they don't want you wearing a jersey.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. So I didn't see him when I didn't see one person on the floor when.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I'm saying. But then I got orange T shirts. If anyone has a Knicks. If I'm a Knicks fan, I'm looking

[Max Kellerman]

for one of those Yankees hats.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's a good one, too. But here's not the Knicks. That's a good workaround.

[Max Kellerman]

I also had a friend tell me

[Rich Paul]

do a Giants hat, which I thought

[Max Kellerman]

this was actually pretty good. I had a friend tell me, man, when our flight came in from New York, obviously it's telling where you're coming from on the manifest. We were delayed an hour on the tarmac because you're coming from New York. I like all the gamesmanship, Max.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. The hotel.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone's getting involved.

[Rich Paul]

You know, this is what Red Auerbach used to do in. In the Boston. Right. Like you would. The hot water wouldn't work in the visiting locker room and like all. Whatever stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes.

[Rich Paul]

I'm trying to think of, like, how to describe to people what Game 3 in New York is going to be like.

[Max Kellerman]

Depends on they're going to shut down New York. Well, it. Well, that's already happened. It depends on what the series is. If it's one one going back. I think the mentality of people come in and it's just like it's. It's a. It's not as comfortable of a seat as you would think.

[Rich Paul]

But that might make it even more electric because the whole city might be around.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, you don't have to worry about electricity, but if they're about the electricity

[Rich Paul]

going out, if they're up 20 now it's going to be like a title wave because they feel the fans listen

[Max Kellerman]

if they're up too. Well, I don't even want to go to the game.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you're not going to be able to enjoy the game.

[Rich Paul]

It's going to be.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not. First of all, you're not going to be able to get to. Unless you get a room at Madison Square Garden.

[Rich Paul]

Can't even get to the guard. You have to.

[Max Kellerman]

What time you going to get to the game?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And even walking is going to be. They're going to have to have crowd control walking because people just want to

[Max Kellerman]

be a part of it. And I think that it's actually pretty. Pretty cool. But at the same time, you have to monitor that.

[Rich Paul]

You know, actually you see the stat where crime falls by over 70%. New York City, who's committing crime? You watching the game when the Knicks are playing. Crime falls over.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I think does that. I think it does it in Europe when, when the, when the, when the, like Arsenal or Tottenham or whoever's playing. Playing like everyone's in the pub.

[Rich Paul]

I have a new thing to blame Dolan for the crime rate in New York City all these years. If the Knicks would have been better.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you better leave Mr. Dolan alone.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, Mr. Dolan, huh?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's what you should call him. You should call him Mr. Dolan.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. As soon as he lets Charles Oakley back into the Madison Square Garden, you know, and then that story where Michael Jordan and David Silver and. And Adam Silver are trying to broker a piece between Dolan and Oakley and it didn't work.

[Max Kellerman]

What, what didn't work?

[Rich Paul]

They didn't broke. Weren't able to broker a piece.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, we gotta fix that. Gotta fix.

[Rich Paul]

Like, what do you gotta realize is. Let's say I don't. I wouldn't use a name, but like, let's say some former Yankee great showed up drunk at Yankee Stadium and started making a problem. You imagine, I don't know if he started saying out of Steinbrenner socks or whatever it is. Could you imagine them getting escorted. Escorted from the game? Could you? Even if they didn't like Charles Oakley to Knicks fans, is like a guy like, like, I know he's not a champion like Paul o', Neill, but he's like a guy like Paul o' Neill to Knicks fans, like Paul o' Neill never make the Baseball hall of Fame. But you can't tell that to Yankees fans.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

Right. And. And if, If Yankees fans ever saw Paul o' Neill getting escorted from Yankee Stadium, they'd be because cl. Because the owner didn't like them. They, it'd be like it would just never happen. Dolan had Charles Oakley escorted from the Garden. I give him credit for staying out of the way right now. A lot like he, he, he put it, finally, after a million tries, got the right front office in place and stayed out of the way and let them operate. And also, by the way, was willing to pay the tax and all that. I give, I, I give credit where it's due. He deserves credit after decades for finally getting that right. I know it's not easy to win a championship and they haven't won it yet, but it looks, I think, like they will.

[Max Kellerman]

Hopefully the success of the team could fix it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, people like to rally around the success.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, just, you know, it just, just, it just brings forth better energy and, you know, people can conversate and get past things.

[Rich Paul]

When the Knicks traded Bill Cartwright for trade Charles Oakley because it was redundant at that point because they had Patrick Ewan. Every Knicks fan in the city's like, we got Oakley. You know, Oakley was the prototypical. Guys like Charles Oakley, Buck Williams, like back then, that was the prototypical power forward that you needed on your team.

[Max Kellerman]

And he was actually a little bit different because he didn't, he didn't have the post game. He had face up.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, face up 15 foot.

[Max Kellerman]

It was dramatic.

[Rich Paul]

But he crashed the, the boards and the outlet passes and dive for loose balls and was also the enforcer and there was the toughness, the way Josh Hart is the heart and soul of the Knicks right now. That was oak back then for the Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Oak. Obviously, you know, I'm from Cleveland, so a lot of fun.

[Rich Paul]

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[Rich Paul]

You know what? What? Jacoby's been trying to get this in the show forever.

[Max Kellerman]

What?

[Rich Paul]

But now it's. It's apropos of. Of. Of Brunson's performance last night in the three major sports in this country. I know. Hockey. Hockey fans got outraged at me when I said once on. On first.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't keep saying that. On first, four major sports. Five, you have to know.

[Rich Paul]

You have to look at. You have to look at the economy of the sports. Hockey is half of the next big. There are three major sports in this country. If you stop most people on the street, they would know. Like, a lot of people in the United States couldn't name a single hockey player. Golf is a major sport, but I mean, team sports.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, well, you didn't say team, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

And I don't know why hockey fans got mad at me for this, because I'm a boxing fan when boxing was once a major sport in this country, and I hope that it gets there again. But if someone said on tv, boxing is not a major sport, I wouldn't take exception. I would say, yeah, you're right. We need to fix it. At any rate, there are three real major team sports in the country. Football, basketball, baseball. From any era, in. At any position.

[Max Kellerman]

Who would.

[Rich Paul]

Who is the most clutch? The championship is on the line. This guy is at the plate. This guy's on the mound. This guy's at, you know, has the ball in his hands at the end of the game. This is the quarterback. This is the defensive player you want in football. Who. Who are those guys that you have seen in your life? Because Brunson, he wins the championship and keeps this up is going to be near the top of that list.

[Max Kellerman]

He deserves a mention for sure. Huh? Let me see. In baseball, Rivera.

[Rich Paul]

Rivera on the mound. No question.

[Max Kellerman]

Baseball, that's easy. In football, I know most would say

[Rich Paul]

Brady, so Mariano Rivera, baseball on the mound. Tom Brady. For football, you say? Most would say, but you say Brady. Montana.

[Max Kellerman]

There's several. But just for my watching, Montana. Yes. I mean, I was a part of the drive Elway, too. The guy only got to do it one time. But Doug Williams was another one of those guys. He didn't get to do it as much. So people might.

[Rich Paul]

Eli Manning did it twice.

[Max Kellerman]

Eli Manning did it twice. But I would probably say just for

[Rich Paul]

the sake of Joe Montana.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Montana.

[Rich Paul]

You were on the same page right there.

[Max Kellerman]

Montana.

[Rich Paul]

If I had to pick one guy with the ball, by the way, MT 40 and Super Bowls, 13, TD, zero picks.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And also he's also on another list that might be the greatest. Like, it's not even a nickname. Joe Cool. Whatever. His actual name sounds like a movie character.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Joe Montana. Your name is Joe Montana. You got the nerve to be the best quarterback ever. Like, what.

[Max Kellerman]

In basketball, we're talking about Brunson, but let's let the series continue in seven. And I can't. I can't be. I can't be biased. So I'm not going to say LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

It's because it's not close.

[Max Kellerman]

But wait, you're saying with the shot, right?

[Rich Paul]

Ball in his hand.

[Max Kellerman]

Ball in his hand. Ball in his.

[Rich Paul]

Ball in his hand. If the ball's in MJ's hand, I'm going to win every single time. If it's. If the game is on the line,

[Max Kellerman]

you say it's mj. He's a nostalgic guy. So obviously we got to pick mj. But a non MJ and a non lebron.

[Rich Paul]

Shit.

[Max Kellerman]

Brunson is in that conversation. Yeah, I'm going Kyrie.

[Rich Paul]

Kyrie is. By the way, Kyrie is absolutely one of those guys. Even before he ever got it done, he always gave me that feeling.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm just.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm not going. I'm not going Kyrie, either.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Of course, we can't say no.

[Rich Paul]

No. Just based on what actually happened. I haven't. He did it one time. He did it more so in the finals. He did it one time. Okay, but I've seen. But. And he's done it plenty of times in his career. But if you're going to be like that, like there when Kyrie was in just the right situation. Yes, but if you're one of these guys, I think. I think maybe even if the situation isn't right, with the ball at your

[Max Kellerman]

hand, you're only counting championship games.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't watch enough basketball.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, listen, as I said, Kyrie gave me that feeling before he ever did it in the championship.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that's.

[Rich Paul]

Your answer is Kyrie.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I just, you know, by the

[Rich Paul]

way, I think I take Relevance. I take Brunson over Kyrie in that situation. I think Brunson over Kyrie. And. And by the way, I would take Kyrie, like, Kyrie's skills. I've said it many times, might be the most skillful player ever, and he's super clutch.

[Max Kellerman]

If you told me that it was between Kai and Brunson and you took Kai, I would take Brunson if you're

[Rich Paul]

saying it's not the same level.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Is there anyone. Different jumps on the same Robert Ori.

[Max Kellerman]

Robert Ory's a good one. But again, again, like, that's a different dynamic.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. He's not going to get his own shot.

[Max Kellerman]

If you saying who's making the play? I'm taking LeBron. If you're saying who's taking the shot? I'm taking Michael. If you're saying you exclude those guys, you know, I like, who needs to

[Rich Paul]

get his own shot versus who has an open look. We're on the same page. We like Mariano Rivera, Joe Montana, and who at the plate, I would say it's going to be a guy who killed my team. I told this to Simmons the other day. For me, it's like guys like George Brett and David Ortiz murdered the Yankees. So, like, that's who jumped to mind. But like, whoever murdered your team is the guy you're going to think is the most clutch.

[Max Kellerman]

I would say for me, man, one of those guys would be like a. This guy was just reliable, like Omar Viscale.

[Rich Paul]

You mean in the field, if the ball's hit to him, that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, you like him at the plate to switch hitter. Patient.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Ken Griffey, Bernie Williams. For me, yeah. I'm just saying there's a lot of guys in baseball. Ozzy Smith. There's a lot of guys who.

[Rich Paul]

Ozzy was a clutch hitter in the.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I'm saying. Like in baseball. I mean, Ricky Henderson, if you needed a stolen base.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I give you another one. Who. That happened recently. Freddie Freeman.

[Max Kellerman]

Freddie.

[Rich Paul]

This dude. Freddie. Freddie Freeman might be the answer. This is a good one. Stop.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Freddie Freeman's a good one. But in baseball, there's. I just go, Tony. Gwen. Kirby Puckett.

[Rich Paul]

But these are just. Oh, Kirby Puckett. Yes. Tony. Just a great hitter. He's always a great.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I'm just saying, in terms of. From what I can remember, guys.

[Rich Paul]

Guys who. If they were up at the end of the game and they were playing against you, you were like, yeah, this

[Max Kellerman]

guy is going to get a hit.

[Rich Paul]

He's going.

[Max Kellerman]

It may not be a home run, but he's going to advance the runners.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

It's a lot of guys. My Yankee, I used to love Don Mattingly.

[Rich Paul]

No question.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Matt. By the way, you see what happened since he took over the Phillies. The Phillies haven't been. They're in second place. All this.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Donnie. Baseball. All right, But. But in this series of everyone in this Series. It's Jalen Brunson. Who's the guy you're going to want, obviously.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, he took over the fourth quarter last night. Some of those shots he made getting back left off the glass. The one shot.

[Rich Paul]

By the way, there's a reel of Caleb Wilson going nuts when Brunson hit the.

[Max Kellerman]

Caleb. Caleb and Jerry, his dad, they were in La La land as it pertains to. They could not. They were about to over be. It was going over basketball like it was crazy. It was just. But. But there's such basketball people to be

[Rich Paul]

up there, you know, Caleb was like a little kid. Oh, he was. He was the way he was when he was watching Brunson. He was like a little. He loved.

[Max Kellerman]

He watched. He watched. Or a big kid the day before. He watched shoot around. He was like.

[Rich Paul]

But he was making noises like a little kid. Like he couldn't believe they were sitting. He was kicking.

[Max Kellerman]

Mixed legends.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And Jerry, his dad was like, bruh.

[Rich Paul]

Who was there?

[Max Kellerman]

Clyde?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Starks, Allen, Houston was there. They all in the same row. Ewing. I mean, come on, man. Like, what are we doing here? It's like, wait a minute, I'm at the finals game and this and that. It's like as a basketball fan, it doesn't really get any better for one price of admission. I'll take that. That's what you call a Chucky. Chucky Balboa.

[Rich Paul]

When do we reconvene for our next one? Is the question.

[Max Kellerman]

What next episode? What you mean after game three?

[Rich Paul]

Right after the game. We're gonna do it right after game three.

[Max Kellerman]

Right after game three.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so Monday night.

[Max Kellerman]

Monday night.

[Rich Paul]

So after game three, it'll drop Tuesday morning?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Monday, Wednesday, Friday. We're gonna drop Tuesday because we got to do it after.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, because after the game. Game. Our viewers don't want to see us talking before. They want to hear the reaction like that. Yeah. And they want to hear me.

[Rich Paul]

Spike, are we going to get one

[Max Kellerman]

up you in basketball prowess?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I don't. I don't front. I'm not fronting that I know basketball like you. Things I predict seem to come true a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not. Listen, that's.

[Rich Paul]

That's just because I have special abilities.

[Max Kellerman]

I am about to find your ghostwriter in all this time. And you're going to owe every network you ever work for reparations.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, if only I had one. Although, you know what? You know what? I actually at one point, you sometimes will get a good researcher in this business.

[Max Kellerman]

We need the researcher.

[Rich Paul]

So. So I had a. He was really. He was kind of a researcher and then later a producer. And now he writes and he does on air stuff. Robin Lundberg. And. And I'll see stuff. I will see this from you in years, years from now. And you'll see it in me, too. I will hear you repeat stuff, stuff that I have said as though it's your own five years from now. This is what happens when you work with someone once. You will hear the same thing from me. And you know it.

[Max Kellerman]

And you know, hear from me now.

[Rich Paul]

And you know what you're going to think? You're going to think if someone else did that, I'd be mad. But I know why he thinks that. Because I affected him over. I see this from. From Brian Kenny, Marcellus Wiley, people who I've worked.

[Max Kellerman]

And I do it, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not saying it's one way. I do it with them, too. I'm sure I've learned things from them and repeated them. And the first 10 times you say it, you'll say like as Max used to say, or as Rich used to say, but. But then after you say it 10 times is. You guys keep saying it, you just

[Max Kellerman]

start saying, but you know how many things I've taken out of Winks?

[Rich Paul]

And I did that with Lundberg, by the way. Robin Lumber. I used to. At a certain point, some of the stuff he said became the stuff that I said in terms of ghostwriter.

[Max Kellerman]

In my book. I talk about Wink.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, tell me.

[Max Kellerman]

And Wink was one of the older guys.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, oh, Wink.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And he had. He. And so we always beat his house. The things that were said here, Max, first of all, you loved it. You would have loved it. But you. You pick up so much. You take so much from there, and it's just a natural thing. And so it becomes part of your vocabulary. That's. I did it with the movie Pooty Tank too. That. That's.

[Rich Paul]

They're always, always. There's always like a guy in the neighborhood, too, who's like a little bit older. And a certain kind of humor or mannerism gets passed down to the younger group, everybody. And you can. You could tell what neighborhood someone comes from from the way that they'll even deliver a joke because it becomes like part of the culture of a neighborhood.

[Max Kellerman]

There's nothing funnier. There's nothing. It's not funny. But there's nothing funnier than being in the Dice House. And everybody's broke. Like, the only ones left is the people there. That's broken, right? And you all in there and they give you salmon patties you like. It's not funny, but I've had plenty of nights where I've been there. And it's just one of those things and the conversations just being had. And that's where I told you we get after cards from, right? You said you're sitting there playing after cards, and now you playing the cards face up on what you probably could have had or should have had. And then if I were to.

[Rich Paul]

You leave. You leave mentally rich.

[Max Kellerman]

And guess what used to happen.

[Rich Paul]

Hey, that's the name of your follow up book.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, Mentally Rich. Thanks, Max.

[Rich Paul]

Yep. I'm not Ghost Rider. No, no. Ghostwriter.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not paying you for that. Max, before we go, I'll tell you one more story.

[Rich Paul]

Go.

[Max Kellerman]

So in the dice house, imagine. Imagine in the dice house, somebody asks you, max, let me get 50. You give them 50. They do this for three months straight. You give them 50, they never win.

[Rich Paul]

Then they hit.

[Max Kellerman]

Then they hit. And you say, hey, man, where's my 800? No, not even your 800. Not even your 800. Because you chalk it up as a loss, you know?

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

You call this a gap.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But you say, now is your turn. Hey, man, let me get 50. Now I don't have it.

[Rich Paul]

And you saw him win.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you know how crazy that is? What are you talking about? You know who was the best at this? Smalls. He met Smalls.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Was the best at not coughing up the 50.

[Max Kellerman]

He was the best at you and him. Y' all go into a bank together. Y', all, you guys win. And now you win and he kick you out the bank and you like, wait a minute. We started together, now I'm out. Yeah, you're out. I want to do. I just. I just. He come up with this one. Man, I just feel like I could do better by myself. No, after we didn't come in together. Now you said you can.

[Rich Paul]

You had 200, he had a partner. And then in success, he didn't need the partner.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what happens.

[Rich Paul]

What I'm gonna do to you.

[Max Kellerman]

Nothing.

[Rich Paul]

Listen.

[Max Kellerman]

Nothing like it. Okay, game [e-mail] over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

And we will see you after game three.

[Max Kellerman]

I got a tea. Time. Time, Max, I'm telling you, I'm going to get a box of.

[Rich Paul]

You got time. I know when you're teaching, I'm gonna

[Max Kellerman]

get a box of Pro V1. All right. Okay. I'm looking to. To I need to break a hundred.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Which tells you I'm not that good. I need to break 100.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna take my first official golf lesson when we get back. Oh, you're coming Saturday?

[Max Kellerman]

This Saturday?

[Rich Paul]

Next.

[Max Kellerman]

Next Saturday, yeah. All right. Check the date. I don't know. I have to check the date.

[Rich Paul]

We got to go out to the desert, hit some balls.

[Max Kellerman]

Now, wait a minute.

[Rich Paul]

You're not going to pause me on that?

[Max Kellerman]

No, you have to go out.

[Rich Paul]

No, you're not going to pause me on that.

[Max Kellerman]

We're going to the driving range in the desert. You can't say golf lessons.

[Rich Paul]

You can't use the word ball. Like, how do you talk about sports without saying the word ball?

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't say anything. I just said we're going to the driving range and get lessons in the.

[Rich Paul]

It's going to get to the point where the baseball announcer, you know, two balls in a strike. Oh, pause.

[Max Kellerman]

How?

[Rich Paul]

You gotta. You know.

[Max Kellerman]

That wouldn't be a pause.

[Rich Paul]

You sure?

[Max Kellerman]

No, that wouldn't be that.

[Rich Paul]

All right, then we're gonna have to. We're gonna have to go out to the desert and hit some balls.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll go out to the desert and get some golf messages. Let's do that. Let's do that, Max. All right.

[Rich Paul]

Are you coming with me? You come where?

[Max Kellerman]

I got nine to play.

[Rich Paul]

Tea time. I don't know how to play golf.

[Max Kellerman]

You could just watch. What else you got to do?

[Rich Paul]

Gonna just sit there and watch you hit balls.

[Max Kellerman]

We're done. Goodbye.

[Rich Paul]

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