Previewing the NBA Finals, and a Blockbuster NFL Trade | Game Over

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul (The Ringer) Episode: Previewing the NBA Finals, and a Blockbuster NFL Trade Release Date: June 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive into two massive topics: the NBA Finals preview and the blockbuster NFL trade sending Myles Garrett to the LA Rams. The hosts bring their signature blend of deep analysis, inside perspectives, and candid banter, exploring what the Finals mean for both the Knicks and the Spurs, the cultural significance of a New York championship, the evolution of franchise culture, and how league-altering moves are playing out across sports.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Myles Garrett’s Trade to the Rams (01:23–09:13)

• Emotions for Cleveland: Rich Paul, a lifelong Browns fan, reacts with mixed emotions to Garrett leaving his hometown, acknowledging the organization did right by him.
  • “It’s conflicted for me, Max… But I’m also understanding that Miles had to go and it was only right that the Browns do what was right for him.” – Rich Paul (01:53)
• Agent Playbook: Shout-out to Nicole Lynn for masterfully structuring Garrett’s contract, including a no-trade clause, giving him power over his destination.
• Rams’ Calculated Aggression: Max praises LA’s willingness to pay big in draft picks for proven talent.
  • “The Rams… admire the way they do business so much… If you can get one of the best players ever in his prime, let’s do it.” – Max Kellerman (04:08)
• Impact for LA & Culture Export: Moving an all-pro to LA is seen as not just a sports move but a culture/economy one, raising the Rams' Super Bowl odds and giving Garrett a massive stage.
• Celebrating the Deal: Both hosts reflect on the pride within Klutch and the fulfillment of an agent's mission to maximize a player’s legacy.

2. NBA Finals Preview: Knicks vs Spurs (10:06–53:56)

Why the Knicks’ Run is Historic (10:06–14:48)

• Knicks as NY’s Team: Max and Rich discuss the deep cultural footprint of the Knicks in New York, surpassing even the mighty Yankees in the city's psyche when the team is contending.
  • “There’s only one team that plays in Manhattan in the middle of the city, right? That’s the Knicks… The Garden...was the place to be.” – Max Kellerman (11:00)
• Championship Drought & Stakes: The city has waited 53 years; a Knicks victory could be the biggest sports title since the Red Sox or Cubs broke their own curses.

What Makes These Teams Special? (14:48–28:17)

• Nova Knicks & Culture: The Knicks’ roster, loaded with Villanova alumni, shows how collegiate chemistry translates to pro success.
• Spurs’ Youth Revolution: Wemby, Castle, Harper are barely out of their teens but battle-tested, unselfish, and set for a long run.
  • “Win or lose for the Spurs… now they’ve gone to the finals at Wemby’s 22. These guys are barely not teenagers... Their games fit together.” – Max Kellerman (16:13)
  • “What impresses me most about the spurs is their willingness to buy in. Everybody’s willingness to buy in.” – Rich Paul (20:45)
• Building Lasting Culture: The panel highlights the importance of organizational culture—using the Spurs, Heat, Warriors, and now Knicks as prime examples.
• Buy-In from Stars: The willingness of star players like De’Aaron Fox to become “number two” for the greater good is seen as a marker of real championship potential.

Karl-Anthony Towns’ Transformation (32:31–41:19)

• From Star to Perennial Winner?: The hosts debate whether “KAT” can change the narrative about his career with a ring, comparing his journey to Dirk Nowitzki and Giannis.
  • “He will change his status, like where people see him permanently.” – Max Kellerman (39:23)
• Style of Play & System Fit: Discussion around Mike Brown’s successful retooling of Towns’ role and the impact of role definition in a player's career trajectory.

Tactical Finals Preview & X-Factors (41:19–53:56)

• Matchup Strategy:
  • Spurs’ defensive depth makes them hard to “hunt” for mismatches; their switchability is a potential game-changer (42:18–44:32).
  • “If the Spurs win, it’s because Castle’s defense, he’s too big and strong and can shut you down at the point of attack.” – Max Kellerman (41:47)
  • For Knicks, 3-point shooting is vital; Josh Hart’s hot streak can tilt the scales (44:00–44:32).
• Lineup Tweaks: Rich floats starting Carter Bryant to allow for a bigger defender on KAT and freeing up Wemby for defensive help.
• Bench Depth: Spurs have the edge in depth, but Knicks’ rotation players are capable and battle-proven.
• Series Flow: Discussion on how rest and schedule may favor one team, and the pressure of playing in two of the league’s best atmospheres.

3. Listener Questions, GOAT Debate & Fun Banter (56:21–68:48)

Wemby’s GOAT Path (56:21–61:54)

• How Many Rings Does He Need?: Four to five titles and a dominant peak would land Wemby in true greatest-of-all-time conversation.
  • “If he gets 12, like 15 year career and 12 peak seasons and he winds up with a handful of chips, four, five rings, a bunch of MVPs… This dude was 7’5”. What could you do?” – Max Kellerman (57:43)
• Caution on GOAT Talk: Rich urges caution and enjoyment: “I just want to enjoy what we’re seeing in Wemby and hopefully he stays healthy…” (57:59)
• Perfect Scenario: Both agree that Wemby is more set up to be GOAT than any player before due to his youth, organization, and supporting cast.

48-Minute Superstar Game Question (62:33–65:17)

• LeBron’s Ironman Feats: Why don’t stars play all 48 in Game 7s anymore? Conditioning, team needs, and game context discussed.
  • “You gotta be in hell of a shape to play all 48. And maybe their teams don’t need them to play all 48.” – Rich Paul (63:01)
• Best Athlete for an Alien Death Match: Fun aside on who you’d send to save humanity in a series of athletic contests; for about 10–15 years, it would have been LeBron.

Culture, Athlete, and Pop Culture Banter (65:17–68:48)

• Myles Garrett’s Athleticism: Rich marvels at the freakish abilities of Garrett compared to other pros.
• Bruce Lee & “Enter the Dragon” Remake Wish: Lighthearted debate about which modern athlete could possibly play Bruce Lee’s role if remade, but both agree Bruce is irreplaceable.
  • “There’s no replacement for Bruce Lee. Let’s wrap it up, Max.” – Rich Paul (68:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s conflicted for me, Max… Miles had to go and it was only right that the Browns do what was right for him.” – Rich Paul (01:53)
• “The Rams… admire the way they do business so much… If you can get one of the best players ever in his prime, let’s do it.” – Max Kellerman (04:08)
• “I'm a Browns fan through and through… but I'm also understanding that Miles had to go.” – Rich Paul (02:00)
• “[Wemby’s] reached a height that very few players ever reach.” – Max Kellerman (06:41)
• “If the Knicks win anything… It would be in the conversation for biggest championship ever in the NBA.” – Max Kellerman (14:59)
• “What impresses me most about the spurs is their willingness to buy in. Everybody’s willingness to buy in.” – Rich Paul (20:45)
• “If you have Wemby or Castle or Harper, you’re doing business.” – Max Kellerman (18:36)
• “When you talk about culture, the Thunder has it, the Heat have it, the Warriors have it… The Knicks did it.” – Rich Paul (27:10)
• “You get a guy like Brunson… you cannot put nonsense around that. It’s never going to mix.” – Rich Paul (29:52)
• “Win or lose for the Spurs… now they’ve gone to the finals at Wemby’s 22. These guys are barely not teenagers... Their games fit together.” – Max Kellerman (16:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• NFL: Myles Garrett Trade Reaction – 01:23–09:13
• Knicks’ Cultural Significance – 10:06–14:48
• NBA Finals: Roster & Culture Analysis – 14:48–28:17
• Karl-Anthony Towns Debate – 32:31–41:19
• NBA Finals Tactical Breakdown – 41:19–53:56
• Listener Question: Wemby’s GOAT Ceiling – 56:21–61:54
• Why Stars Don’t Play 48 in Game 7s – 62:33–65:17
• Athletic Superstars & Pop Culture Banter – 65:17–68:48

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Tone & Chemistry

Max and Rich keep things lively and relatable, mixing sharp front-office insight, cultural commentary, and friendly argumentation. The interplay between Max’s New Yorker energy and Rich’s agent/insider understanding gives the show a unique, well-rounded perspective, blending humor (“Happy meal, super size” – 05:19), sage advice for players, and an appreciation for the game’s deep history.

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Conclusion

A must-listen for fans wanting to go deep on the NBA Finals with plenty of bigger picture insight—both in terms of basketball tactics and what these Finals mean for the history and culture of the game. The episode stands out for its blend of sharp technical analysis, front-office storytelling, and playful, candid chemistry between two of sports media’s most insightful voices.

Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

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[Max Kellerman]

There's some big things happening in the sports world that don't even involve the NBA Finals.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want to talk about it.

[Max Kellerman]

Why don't you want to talk about it? Miles Garrett.

[Rich Paul]

I know.

[Max Kellerman]

Who, by the way, is.

[Rich Paul]

It's a win. Win.

[Max Kellerman]

He's wearing the crown. Right. But the crown Crown went from J.J. watt to Aaron Donald to Myles Garrett. Right. Miles Garrett's got the defensive crown right now.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

In his prime. Gets out of. I understand it's your hometown and all this, but he was.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's.

[Max Kellerman]

He was dying on the vine.

[Rich Paul]

It's conflicted for me, Max. He gets to la. I know. I said it's conflicted.

[Max Kellerman]

And he's about to win a Super bowl on this team.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Listen. It's conflicted. I'm a Browns, you know, I'm a Browns fan through and through.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

The way you are about your Knicks. I'm about my Browns.

[Max Kellerman]

No, about my Giants.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, you're Giants. I'm about my Browns. But I'm also understanding that Miles had to go and it was only right that the Browns do what was right for him, which is allow him to get to a place he wanted to go. I thought Nicole Lynn did a great job of one, restructuring his deal with Cleveland.

[Max Kellerman]

She works at this agency, Clutch Sports. Have you heard about it?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, she does. She's great. And she put A no trade clause in there, which gave him the power to decide where he wanted to go. I thought Andrew and the Browns and Jimmy Haslam did a great job of really focusing on Miles and taking care of him the way they should as an organization. When a guy like that has given you so much and you know you're in no position to actually win at all. And so he gets to the Rams, who, as you know, also Stan and Josh Kroenke are like family to me.

[Max Kellerman]

And Les Sneed.

[Rich Paul]

Les Sneed's a beast.

[Max Kellerman]

Ram picks.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I mean, Cole actually tweeted that.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, okay, Cleveland got a King's ransom. They get a first, a second, a third. I'm like, okay, they got a bunch of picks and verse, who's an excellent young ascending player and. But I'm thinking about it from the Rams point of view, Rich. I admire the way they do business so much because if you back it up, right? So you have to ask yourself, am I putting my faith in something that's worth it? Right? Like, does this? Does. Does what I'm putting my faith in merit My. My belief that they. So for example, when Cleveland traded for James Harden, I thought that's not a good idea because Harden hasn't shown the ability to get over the top in the playoffs. And that's the point of the trade, right? When Houston was doing all that stuff for Harden, I'm like, that's misplaced, right? Did you place it well or not? The Rams think about this. When they first get golf, they had to move mountains to do it. They put a whole bunch of draft capital in to move up a few spots to take them. He gets them to the super bowl, they're like, nope, not enough. They then add multiple firsts with Goff, who they already added draft capital to get. To move up to get Stafford, because they're like, that dude, that's not misplaced faith. That dude's going to get it done. And in his first year, he wins the Super Bowl. And they came this close from winning the super bowl just now. So in this little two year window now with Stafford, they're like, okay, verse, a first, a second, a third, versus already doing what we need him to do, but we can get one of the best players ever in his prime. Let's do it.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I mean, they just gave Stafford a two year extension, right? And I guarantee you many people were trying to get on McVay about not being happy during the draft. I bet he's happy now.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Miles Garrett is like, A Happy Meal. Super size.

[Max Kellerman]

Happy meal, super size, 100%.

[Rich Paul]

And so is this a big day at Clutch, though?

[Max Kellerman]

Or people are like, is it like a celebratory day? For this reason, Rich, you have one of the best players ever in his prime going from a small market to one of the glamour markets on earth. Right. Like, when you think about American culture, what's our number one export? Really? Our number one export is our culture, popular culture, and we export it primarily through Los Angeles. Right. So you're taking this guy, kind of plucking him from obscurity and dropping him into that. But it's not just that. It's la, It's super bowl ready. La. Like, I imagine at the. At Clutch. People are toasting this right now.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, it was a big day. I mean, especially. Look, when you're. When you're an agent, you have a number of different jobs to do within your representation umbrella, but one of them is trying to make sure that you're doing everything for the client that you can. And I think players that are at the level of a Miles Garrett, when you run into a conundrum, so to speak, you just want to make sure that the representation is doing everything they possibly can to get you where you're trying to go.

[Max Kellerman]

When you say players like Miles Garrett, there haven't been that many. Ever. He's reached a height that very few players ever reach.

[Rich Paul]

I would say a Pro Bowler, All Pro, type of. He's an All Pro guy consistently, every year. But oftentimes people would think, oh, you should stay with one team and no, you shouldn't. We have no chance of winning. I want to win. If nothing else, I want to win. Or what am I out here playing for if I'm not going to have a realistic chance of winning?

[Max Kellerman]

It doesn't just happen to small markets, by the way. Like I remember as a kid, Ricky Henderson wanted out because the Yankees were losing. Wanted to go back to Oakland, Went back to Oakland, won the World Series that year.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I mean? It happens to big markets, too.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So in that case. And look, it's not the easiest thing to do. Get somebody traded. Only get them traded, but get them traded and land in a spot where they can actually win. And so, no, I was. We were. We were very happy for Miles. I was also very happy for Nicole because I know how hard it is to be in that position when everything happened. I think it was last year when all the news came out and, you know, things of that nature. So, yes, it's a great day. And. And know what else? I'm happy for my suite at Sofi.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm happy for that, too, as a matter of fact. Happy for that.

[Rich Paul]

That's for sure. Now.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

It's eight games. I give you one.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm in. Why not?

[Rich Paul]

When the schedule comes out.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what? One is better than none.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. When the schedule comes out and they play your Giants.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, come on.

[Rich Paul]

Well, wait a minute. Odell's back it with your Giants.

[Max Kellerman]

We'll see. You got to make the team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Gotta make the team.

[Rich Paul]

I think he'll make the team.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe. I mean, they gave. They gave three different players, like, million three. I think they're all on a million three. None of it's played golf with Braxton.

[Rich Paul]

He's a great golfer in Miami. Really is. But. No.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I mean, one or two of these guys may be sticks that they. The veterans. Hopefully it's Odell. It'd be a great story.

[Rich Paul]

It'd be a great story.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Hope so, too. But no. Big day for the Rams. Big day for Myles Garrett. And big day for clutching Nicole in, so. It's great.

[Max Kellerman]

So you're doing like, the quarterback thing where you don't take the credit. You're. You're.

[Rich Paul]

I can't take the credit.

[Max Kellerman]

You give it to the. You're the quarterback. You won the game, but you're going to give it to the.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I cannot take the credit. I am a.

[Max Kellerman]

She hit the game winner. She gets the game.

[Rich Paul]

Support dog.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Gotcha.

[Rich Paul]

In that. In that case. Yeah, of course.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Listen, you ready to do the show? Because we got. We got an NBA big finals.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I'm excited about it. Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Be in San Antonio tomorrow.

[Rich Paul]

San Antonio. You know, maybe I'll bring my cowboy hat this time.

[Max Kellerman]

You didn't bring it last time. You said you were gonna bring it.

[Rich Paul]

I think it's.

[Max Kellerman]

You gotta bring a cowboy hat. What, do you even carry that in or wear it on the plane?

[Rich Paul]

Not wearing on the plane. Max, you can't go to sleep. No, no, no. You bring in a box and the box goes in the overhead.

[Max Kellerman]

Show up on set looking like Yosemite Sam. Let me find out.

[Rich Paul]

It's only right. The boots were great, but I might have to bring the hat out.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, why not?

[Max Kellerman]

Not me. I'm not going to wear a cowboy hat.

[Rich Paul]

I wouldn't expect you to wear a cowboy hat.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Game [e-mail].

[Max Kellerman]

you want to leave a voicemail. 424-240-8341. We will listen to you. We will respond to your voicemails. We'll respond to your emails. Rich, let's get right into it. Before we even hit Wemby, I got to start with the Knicks. When I think about New York, people think it's a baseball town because of the Yankees, right? It is not a baseball town. New York is. Is a basketball town. There's a hoop on every corner. There's. It's a city that does not have a lot of space. So that. So that it's like the streets thinks

[Rich Paul]

it's a baseball town. Nobody thinks New York is a baseball team.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, because the Yankees are the number one team in the town.

[Rich Paul]

It's because they win.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, Right, exactly. Because they win.

[Rich Paul]

If the Knicks won or won consistently.

[Max Kellerman]

There's only one team of the three major sports. Sorry, hockey fans. I'm probably the three biggest ones because the economies are much bigger than the NHLs. There's only one team that plays in Manhattan in the middle of the city, Right? That's the Knicks. Yankees play in the Bronx. Mets and Queens, Giants and Jets in New Jersey. Not even in the state. That's how gangster New York is. You play in another state, you're still called the New York Giants and Jets. They play in the middle of the city. When I was a kid, a courtside seat to The Knicks was $1,000. The best seat in the house in Yankee Stadium or at the Meadowlands was maybe $100, right? Like it was the best seat. Maybe more. I wouldn't know. I didn't have the best seat, but it was. It was multiples of what the Giants or the Yankees could get for tickets back then. It was the place to be. The Garden. And it's the number one. You know, they're. They're the first team, and the Nets have always been second. I thought the Nets were going to make a move and overtake them when they got KD and everything, but it didn't happen. So that team in the basketball town has been starved of a championship for 53 years. Right. It would be the biggest championship in sports. Since when? Since the Red Sox or Cubs, because they went 100 years, more or less, each without a championship. But baseball does not have the cultural significance that basketball does. Their modern American life

[Rich Paul]

since 2016.

[Max Kellerman]

Way bigger, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

I said bigger. Since 2016.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. No, I'm saying you say 16 was bigger.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. I said the Knicks winning. Yeah, since 2016.

[Max Kellerman]

I think it's bigger. Of course, if the Knicks win anything,

[Rich Paul]

if the Knicks play in the Big Apple, it can't be smaller.

[Max Kellerman]

And now against the new face of the league, the only thing that would be bigger is if LeBron was a young player, you know, like the Lakers.

[Rich Paul]

The only thing that would be bigger, the only thing that's possibly missing is that marquee player on the Knicks that was being anointed. He's on the Knicks to win the championship ahead of time. Not to take nothing away from nobody on the Knicks. I'm just saying in terms of sports, you think about that thing like they

[Max Kellerman]

don't have an above the rim Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan on the team. Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Or, you know, like the Lakers had magic, the Celtics had Bird. Like, you don't think about that, but it'll be huge.

[Max Kellerman]

But the Nova Knicks thing and that, you know, and the. There's, there's like, it would be, it would be.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, this is. This is the best Knicks team.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Of my lifetime. Of my lifetime. It's this or the 94 Knicks. We'll see.

[Rich Paul]

You know, we'll say, no, it's this team.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, this team is 94 Knicks. Came this close to winning it in game six. Olajuwon got his fingertips on the ball. That's the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

That's a fact. Yes, that's true.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I mean, that was a hell of a team.

[Rich Paul]

That was a hell of a team.

[Max Kellerman]

And this, this team may or may not get it done. We will see. But it is like.

[Rich Paul]

But if they don't get it done, if. Here's the thing, Neither one of these teams, regardless how. What the outcome is, is of the finals, neither one of them have anything to hang their heads about. It's been an unbelievable season for both. Now, a New Yorker doesn't want to hear that, because New Yorkers want to win the championship. And you can feel the city about to just explode from la. I can feel it.

[Max Kellerman]

It's ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

And I have a lot of friends in New York. And you know what? If they were to win it, kudos to them. On the other end, the spurs and Wimby for the NBA. And every 22 years old, you can also feel that bubbling too.

[Max Kellerman]

You got the face of the league and something we've never seen before. And a guy who might one day be called the greatest player who ever lived.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Against the biggest market, that's the most starved title.

[Rich Paul]

Couldn't be a better setup.

[Max Kellerman]

The NBA is set. Oh, you couldn't ask right now, listen, it would be in the conversation if the Knicks won. It would be in the conversation for biggest championship ever in the NBA. Be in the conversation for it.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Like the stakes. Meantime, Wemby's 22. He's 22. He's already there. If he steals one ahead of time. And this is when Castle and Harper are this young. They don't even really know what they're doing yet.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they're preemies.

[Max Kellerman]

They can't really shoot yet.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, we talked about this before this, but this journey that they've been on, the playoffs, has really expedited. When people say they lack experience.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, now they got it.

[Rich Paul]

The showing that they had in game seven on the road with the Thunder. And at the end of the game when Castle and. Castle and Harper, when they were talking to each other, like, when the game was out of reach. Sometimes you grow during a series. That Thunder series expedited their growth.

[Max Kellerman]

That's the worst thing for the rest of the league is that, well, they're inexperienced. Everyone was telling me they can't win because they're inexperienced. And I'm like, yeah, so were the Thunder last year. Then they won and got like. Now they have the experience. The rest of the league is in so much trouble. Win or lose for the spurs, because now they've gone to the finals at WEMBY's 22. These guys are barely not teenagers. The core of this team, the three most important players going into the future, Wemby and Castle and Harper are in their early 20s. And unlike some other teams that we've seen, they obviously like each other. They like playing together. Their games fit together. And then you have your. You have de' Aaron Fox. Like, listen, if no de' Aaron Fox in the conference finals, they're gone. Like, if he couldn't get healthy and play at least a couple games, they're not getting pass. This team is so. And then by the time Fox, because of the way they're set up, they could. If they win this year, they might reel off two, three in a row. By the time Fox gets a little older, then whether or not he's still with the team, Harper's gonna. And Castle are gonna be ready. Ready. By then, they're gonna be just entering their primes. I'm trying to think of, like, can. Can we think of another team that was this obviously set up for a run of dominance as this? You people could say the Thunder from last year, but I didn't get the same feeling from them as I'm Getting from this team. Cause there's no Wendy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but Shay was effective. You thought that. You thought that the Thunder would. A lot of people expected the Thunder to be back there. We thought that if anyone could beat the Thunder, it was the Warrior. I mean, it was the Spurs. Sorry. I was thinking about, was it the warriors team? Was it the.

[Max Kellerman]

Where people were like, oh, this is going to be around for a while.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I was just trying because you had Clay, Steph and Dre. But they weren't already.

[Max Kellerman]

They weren't that young. They were already, like in their mid-20s.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they were injuries.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, they were. They were set up for a while.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But the other thing, Rich, the difference is with the warriors, it was almost like they're out ahead of the curve in terms of the way they're playing. I always got the sense. But the rest of the league, that's a cop. You know, people copy what's success and everything. You could see Damian Lillard could do some of the stuff that Steph could do, and there are other players.

[Rich Paul]

So.

[Max Kellerman]

So. And like stretch fours were everywhere all of a sudden, and you. And people were playing five out, trying to get bigs, you know, Brook Lopez and guys like that who could. Who could play out. So it was like, yeah, the warriors are ahead of the curve and they should juice this right now. But this spurs team, it doesn't matter how the league plays. They have transportable. Like in any era, if you have Wemby or Castle or Harper, you. You're doing business.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but what impresses you most about the spurs team? I know what impresses me, but I want to hear from you what impresses you most.

[Max Kellerman]

If I had to pick the number one thing, number one thing, I would say that their best player has the temperament and the need to win that you want. Like, he is. He is the perfect spur, the way Tim Duncan was the perfect spur.

[Rich Paul]

And.

[Max Kellerman]

And David Robinson, like, people forget this already. Tim Duncan was the number one pick in the draft. A lot of people thought it should be Keith Van Horn at the time because he was a baller, right. And he could really shoot. Tim Duncan was number one. David Robinson, before Tim Duncan had played a game, came out and said, david Robinson just led the league in scoring, MVP, dropped 71 points in a game. Crazy.

[Rich Paul]

He.

[Max Kellerman]

He came out and said, we need to run this offense through. Tim Duncan, I thought, what. He hasn't played in the NBA yet. David Robinson is saying, that's the guy. And because he had that attitude, within two years, they were champions, right yeah. Wemby has that thing that David Robinson and Tim Duncan had, and. Except he's even bigger and potentially better than those guys.

[Rich Paul]

So you said something about Wimby being the perfect spur.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Which led me to think about it. I was like, the perfect spur. I'm almost willing to bet you had the spurs not got the number one pick that year, he might have stayed in France.

[Max Kellerman]

You think so?

[Rich Paul]

Maybe I don't know that because he

[Max Kellerman]

would want to go to the Popovich

[Rich Paul]

organization, but the way he's. He's so detail oriented. Right. And he's so passionate about certain things. He's. He's much. He's. He's wise beyond his years. Right. You see him walking around San Antonio. He's just walking around. He went and bought a used car. Not that I would have done that. I mean, I'm getting the money. I'm buying me a new car, brand new car. But. But it's almost just like. For me, what impresses me most about the spurs is their willingness to buy in. Everybody's willingness to buy in. Because when you talk about. When you talk about Wemby, you talk about David Robinson and what he said about Tim Duncan. I remember the trade getting ready to take place, and Deanna and I were talking about it, and we were talking about different options, where he could go, et cetera. And obviously, I had the spurs kind of teed up. Possibilities.

[Max Kellerman]

Don't meet him there. Beat him there.

[Rich Paul]

Getting there. Yeah. And the thing about the trade for de', Aaron, at first, it wasn't de' Aaron, who was it? It was another guard that I represent that I was envisioning going there, because de' Aaron wasn't wanting to be traded yet.

[Max Kellerman]

And this guard, he was the man he.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, but this guard was actually. It was Darius Garland. This. He was. He was. He was flustered, he was frustrated, and he wanted to get out. And we was having a conversation, and I said to him at the time, you know, you got to get somewhere where you can. I don't want you to take a dip, you know? And the spurs need. This was before they got the second pick, and they needed a point guard. And I thought next to Wimby, the shooting and all that. And then things changed, and he was fine. And then. So now Mike Brown get fired.

[Max Kellerman]

And you represent a lot of guys who play the right way, like the Aaron Fox, Garland, they play the right way. So an organization like the spurs wants a guy like that.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And character matters. And so in de' Aaron's Case when he finally got to the point to where you know what, it's probably time and we're having a conversation. One of the things we talked about is, okay, if you get to the spurs, are you okay being number two? Because obviously you're going to be number two. There's no doubt about that. And he didn't even flinch. Absolutely, absolutely.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm 6ft tall, he's 8ft tall. Yeah, but it's just 10ft in the air.

[Rich Paul]

When you talk about David Robinson, you talk about just the buy in from these guys. You know, he's already a max player. You know, he's made the all star team.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, see, what you're talking about is I was once on a flight, it was a small plane with. And Brent Barry was sitting across the aisle, but I think there was only one seat on each side, if I'm remembering correctly. And Brent Barry was reading a book called the Captain Class and recommended it. He said it's great.

[Rich Paul]

You tell me about this.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, so I downloaded, I guess on my phone or I forgot how, but I, or maybe he gave me the book. I read it on that flight. And the point, and I'm sorry, I'm not shouting out the author, I'm forgetting the author's name. The point of the book was dynasties have players on the field, captains who are an extension of the coach, right? So Joe Tory had Derek Jeter, Bill Belichick had Tom Brady, you know, and so on. Right. Phil Jackson had Michael Jordan and later Kobe or Shaq. Wemby. The reason I went to him first is when your best player is an extension of, in this case, of the franchise, right. And Mitch is doing a great job, but like the whole, he's, he's in place like, because there's a reason he's the spurs head coach. And, and when that guy buys in like that, you know, when it's internalized, he doesn't. Wemby does not need to pause when you ask him a question to consider what the right thing to say is. His reaction is going to be the right thing because all that spurs culture stuff aligns with his own sensibilities perfectly. So he is the perfect kind of surrogate for the coach on the floor.

[Rich Paul]

But even this, even think about a guy like Harper, right? Harper's the number two pick in the draft. You don't go number two and not be a starter unless you go to a team like the spurs, where Ginobili had once came off the bench. And we all know Ginobili could have started on any of the 29 other teams. But yet. And still he came off the bench. Now he played starting minutes, but he still came off the bench. It's the culture.

[Max Kellerman]

And you have a guy like Fox who's going to mentor the young guy

[Rich Paul]

instead of gatekeeping and he's not coming in the locker room as if you're down here and he's up here. You don't have that. Then I look at a guy like Kelton Johnson who was starting, but he was starting and then they asked him to play this role. And not only play this role, we need you to do less of scoring and more of all the other intangible things that impacts winning. And you buy in. And so.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, in the future, those guys might be starters. Again, as the thing goes, it depends what's best for the team and everyone will do what they have to do.

[Rich Paul]

It's just, it's just when you, when you see that and we have a copycat league and if the league is going to copy something, I think the most important thing is trying to duplicate cultures. I think the cultures. The Thunder has it, the Heat have, have it. We know there's some younger teams that's, you know, the warriors have it. There's some younger teams that's, that's trying to gain it. I like what Detroit is doing. You know, I like what Charlotte's doing. Washington's trying to do it with, with Dawkins.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, in the case of Charlotte, to me a lot of that's con. Canipple. Like he got there and it changed everything. I got the sense in Charlotte, like, do these guys value winning as much as they should?

[Rich Paul]

No. Well, listen, when Jeff Peterson and, and, and when, when, when Rick bought the team, him and Gabe and they hired Jeff Peterson, that was. No, that was priority number one. Prior. They don't. They didn't know they was getting con. They were, they were implementing those things to start. And I think it's what every organization tries to do. I can guarantee you Masai is going to do it in Dallas.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, Messiah does it wherever he goes.

[Rich Paul]

Right. Given that, Given that you are. The Bucks have it. They did it. Given, given that you are allowed to do your job to that capacity, you can get there. But then drafting the right guys and then having your star players buy in, but actually taking the time to build a culture is. It's extremely, extremely valuable. And by the way, while we talking about the spurs, the Knicks did it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You have to tip your hat to

[Max Kellerman]

Rose and Worldwide west, they came in there, the most competent front office I think the Knicks have ever had.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you why, Let me tell you why that was.

[Max Kellerman]

When we go back to Dave check, it's, I think these guys are better, actually.

[Rich Paul]

But nobody's trying to, nobody's trying to stab each other in the back, right? No one's trying to gain a different position and show I could do the job better than the next. That actually makes a great front office, right? And when everyone understands what they do and doing it their way. Now we have to tip our hat to Jalen Brunson because he may not be the tallest, he may not be the above the rim player, but one thing he is, he's professional. He's professional, he's consistent and he produces night in and night out.

[Max Kellerman]

He might be the second player in the history of the modern NBA after Isaiah Thomas. He might be to wind up the best player on a championship team at 6ft tall.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe so. And I think he, by the way,

[Max Kellerman]

and Becky, we said it on the show, but I want, I want to say it again. Becky Hammond, when she came out and said your best player can't. I was saying that already. My point is, I totally agree with her. And for people who would go at her, oh, see, no, she's right. And this is the exception that proves the rule. If it happens once every four years.

[Rich Paul]

Isaiah Thomas was the exception. He did it twice.

[Max Kellerman]

If it happens once every four decades. That's the point.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, that's the point. But what I'm saying about Brunson is you get a guy like Brunson,

[Max Kellerman]

you

[Rich Paul]

cannot put nonsense around that. It's never going to mix. It's going to be water and oil. So now the best way to do this for them, so they thought, and it's the right thing turns out, is to familiarity play with these guys in college, right?

[Max Kellerman]

And they were winners in college.

[Rich Paul]

We represented, you know, Leon represented Karl Anthony Towns. So for everything what someone has to say, they've been knowing that young man since he was in high school coming out of New Jersey, all that familiarity and that relatability and that connectivity, it works for them. And now that's not ideal because most general managers didn't have a roster of players that they once represented and they can.

[Max Kellerman]

And also multiple time college champions who, who played together. I noticed that more in sports though, like they went out and got, you know, Joe Burrow, his college like, like they go get, they go get guys, their college. If, if crime partners, if you have

[Rich Paul]

two Guys that can play at that level that play at different positions at

[Max Kellerman]

the next level too.

[Rich Paul]

Why wouldn't you do that?

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[Max Kellerman]

So I want to. You bring up Karl Anthony Towns. I want to talk about Karl Anthony Towns. I'm trying to think of players who in one postseason changed the way people thought about them and elevated their standing to the extent that Cat might do now. And let me tell you what I mean by that. He came into the league with a lot of fanfare. He was the number one overall pick. That was. That was the de' Aaron Fox. Yeah, de' Aaron was in that. Yeah, that's the Lonzo Ball draft. Lonzo went second. Oh, no. D' Angelo Russell went second. D' Angelo Russell went second. And then Okafor went third and Porzingis went fourth in that draft. Right. But Towns came out in that draft like this is the modern big. He can block shots, he can defend out in space, or so we thought coming out of college. He can really shoot, he can post, he can do all these things. He is going to be the fantastic, like a fantastic modern big. And then it went a little sideways. Rich. It's not that he wasn't good. He maybe is the best shooting Big of all time. He's up there and he was valuable, but it seemed like he like the idea was he's too soft, he doesn't have a mean enough mentality or it wasn't working with some combinations like it should have. And he gets to the Knicks and it's a little more the same, like, ah, cat, we need more from you. And he would always stand there and go, this is a team game. Even when Shaq put him on the spot, he was like, this is a team game. I'm going to do what I think the team needs. Like what the team needs from me. And people are trying to tell him what the team needs from you is to be more selfish. It's just not him. And then Mike Brown puts him in a position to really run much more of the offense. So now his IQ is really showing. If he gets through these playoffs, if they win a championship. Karl Anthony Towns suddenly goes from a guy who I don't think it's unfair to say he was not fulfilling his promise coming that he had coming out of the draft. Not that he was a bad player. He's an all star. He's a good player. Very good player. He's an excellent player. But it wasn't what people thought it would be. And that flips completely around.

[Rich Paul]

But I don't know, I kind of disagree with that.

[Max Kellerman]

Max, because traded one for Julius Randle and Dante DiVincenzo.

[Rich Paul]

But that was a money issue and

[Max Kellerman]

I like those guys.

[Rich Paul]

But that was also a money thing too.

[Max Kellerman]

But you don't trade. He was supposed to be a franchise player.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, once you get Anthony Edwards, he became the franchise player.

[Max Kellerman]

Now you have two.

[Rich Paul]

I agree, I agree with that. But what I'm saying is Karl Anthony Towns did not win a championship in college.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right. So when you say he didn't fulfill what the promise that people thought he was going to be, I don't think anybody looked at him as the second coming of Shaq or Tim Duncan.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I would say all NBA first team type talent. I thought Karl Anthony Towns coming out of college, that's an all NBA first team talent. And the biggest disappointment for me was the defense out in space was not what I thought it was going to be. And although he's a good shot blocker, actually, and he had a great touch, but he wouldn't assert. But my point is not to take credit away from him. My point is what he's doing now, just the way he's being used and how he's performing. I'm Trying to think of like a player.

[Rich Paul]

There's something to be said, Max. When you go from the west to the east, it's different style of basketball. It's just different a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

He wasn't doing it on the Knicks until now. Like I would say he didn't improve his status. He flat back.

[Rich Paul]

He's been an all star since he got on the Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Karl Anthony Towns was his whole career in A minus. Right. What I'm saying is they win a championship, that's an A at least.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. What you're saying is Mike Brown.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Has asked Karl Anthony Towns for more and Karl Anthony Towns has made the effort to give Mike Brown more than just scoring.

[Max Kellerman]

Mike Brown also was like, let's use your basketball iq, which it turns out, yeah, smart player. But it turns out it's higher than I thought it. I'm not saying I didn't think of him as.

[Rich Paul]

I always thought it was high.

[Max Kellerman]

I always thought it was high. Me too. But I didn't know it was like this. I didn't know Karl Anthony Towns could basically run your offense, I think at the championship level.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I think. I think when people see a guy at the size 7 footer of Karl Anthony Towns, they expect for him to be walking around with this mean mug, this mean machine, grumpy ra ra ra. And he's not that.

[Max Kellerman]

No. I would expect him though, when it was Jokic and Embiid like this, I would think that Carl Anthony Town should be right there with those guys. And he was not.

[Rich Paul]

Well, his team wasn't.

[Max Kellerman]

He wasn't. He was not performing on the level of MB or Yokos.

[Rich Paul]

I want to go back and look at his numbers because every Carl Anthony Towns game that I watched for the most part outside of everyone has bad, bad shooting nights here and there.

[Max Kellerman]

I promise they were not those guys. He wasn't. He wasn't.

[Rich Paul]

He wasn't dominant. He wasn't.

[Max Kellerman]

Here were the three dominant four best bigs. Okay. And I don't just mean back to the basket. I mean like three to four best seven footer types were Jokic and Embiid. AD and, and who am I missing? And Giannis who was not. But like more, but like sort of.

[Rich Paul]

That's fair.

[Max Kellerman]

Karl Anthony Towns was a half step below those guys.

[Rich Paul]

But I think a lot of it had to do with style of play too.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree.

[Rich Paul]

Because if you listen, when you have talent, talent is talent, right? Talent can only go so far. But when you place talent with expertise and strategy and execution at A high level, you get success. So Carl Anthony Towns, it's just. It's just evolution. But.

[Max Kellerman]

But this is. Here's what I'm asking, really, who else in NBA history could elevate and change the perception of them in one single postseason, like Kat now has the opportunity to do? I'll give you two examples. Who burnished their legacies in the playoffs, but people already knew that they were bad like that. Like, gangster, like that. Jokic, once Jokic added a chip, it's like, okay, we get it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And Dirk, when Dirk had that 2011 run, it was like, excuse me, I know you're. I know he's like.

[Rich Paul]

Like, you know, toughest runs in the playoffs ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. And that. And like, for that year, because the. That year really means the playoffs. That's the best player in the world. That year. He was the best player in the world. I understand LeBron had to fit in with Dwayne Wade. There are always reasons. But, like, the best player in the NBA that year was overall, was Dirk Nowitzki. It elevated his.

[Rich Paul]

But that playoff run.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. Yeah, but to me, that's the same thing. No, when someone says. I always say, like, when someone says, you know, Jimmy Butler top. Wants the playoffs start. He's top five.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, he's top five. You're saying when it counts, when it matters most.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

That's the guy I want.

[Max Kellerman]

So. But Cat's different because this is not just that he adds the hardware. If they win a championship, he will change his status. Like where people see him permanently.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely.

[Max Kellerman]

He will go from a guy we wanted a little bit more out of the number one pick to. He fulfilled everything.

[Rich Paul]

He did. Isn't that what winning a championship does?

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I don't know how many guys are winning.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm trying to think of who else was ever quite in that position. Like, Giannis was already putting up superhuman numbers. You know, like.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but, but. But it would be Giannis.

[Max Kellerman]

Would it be?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, because you can't. You can't just credit cats numbers and then credit Giannis's numbers. If both of them come without a championship, they just numbers.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but Giannis was putting up better numbers than Cat. Cat was never flirting with 30 points and. And, you know, 13 boards and damn lie. You know, stuff like look up. Looking up Cat right now, I'm going

[Rich Paul]

to look up, for the sake of our time, because they charge us to be here. We not. We going to let somebody else look that up, and we're going to move on with the show, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. Wait a minute.

[Rich Paul]

You make these statements. It's not true.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's. Let's look at Karl Anthony Towns. I'm just telling you, they're not like those guys. Look, all right, Carl Anthony Towns, highest scoring average in his career. He topped 25 points once.

[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

No, twice. Sorry. A little better than I thought. He's averaging 22.8 for his career in the playoffs. No, no.

[Rich Paul]

For his career or for his career.

[Max Kellerman]

2211 with a.

[Rich Paul]

He's had games that he has 30 points and 13 boards.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. I got to be honest. I got to be honest. Tick above where I thought it was.

[Rich Paul]

You didn't watch every Minnesota Timberwolves game. You don't even watch every Knicks game. But Max, to move on with the show, because I have to be the veteran here, we got a rookie. Guys. What do you think is the difference maker in the series?

[Max Kellerman]

The thing I'm watching, which makes me nervous for the Knicks, watching Castle play defense, the way they're just kind of bumping around. Right. I told this to Bill Simmons on his pod today that he and Harper remind me of overgrown puppies, right? When they're still kind of. They're out over themselves and they're so exuberant that they sometimes trip and fall.

[Rich Paul]

Those are some big puppies.

[Max Kellerman]

And so they don't always value possessions, but they also don't let it bother them. As soon as that's over, they're going at it again. There's something about that kind of youthful exuberance that Castle has in the size and the. And the athletic ability and the defense first mentality from him that I think if the spurs win, it's because Castle's defense, he's too big and strong and can shut you down at the point of attack. Right. And that could be a problem for Brunson and therefore the Knicks offense.

[Rich Paul]

I think the Knicks has to shoot at least 40% from 3 as a team.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, every. Nick if.

[Rich Paul]

Because I'm going to tell you why. Because I think the difference is the spurs have a deeper bench. And I also think that you can't hunt anybody in their top seven. You can't hunt Wemby, obviously. You can't hunt Fox, you can't hunt Vassell, you can't hunt Cassel, you can't hunt Harshell. I mean, you can't hunt Harper, you can't hunt Johnson. Now you can say, you know what? Maybe we can hunt Champagne.

[Max Kellerman]

That's the one who comes to mind. But A.B.

[Rich Paul]

from Brooklyn.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. But by the way, by the way, not like it's not glamoring hunting.

[Rich Paul]

He's competing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he's.

[Rich Paul]

So at the end of the day, that changes the way you're going to play. Like when they played the Cavs, they hunted both Donovan and Little, little itty bitties and, and James Harden, Hart. But that's part of today's NBA. They're looking for the mismatch to attack. Right. The, the, the, the lease of resistance. So sort of so, so to speak, in this case, I don't see that on the, on the spurs side. Now what I do see, it's the Spurs. I mean, it's the Knicks one. They're going to get opportunities and they're going to have to make those open shots. They're going to have to. Which if Hart's shooting it well, if Bridges is shooting it well, I think those guys are shooting it well.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich Bridges, if he's just his normal playoff self, is an outstanding player. He's going to hit shots.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

OG Is going to hit shots.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

If they're just themselves. The one guy on the Knicks, and I've said this since the beginning of the season, if he's hot, the Knicks are really hard to beat. It's almost impossible to beat them. If this guy gets hot and everyone else is themselves, is Josh Hart. If. And he can get hot. If Josh Hart can get hot and play a little above himself in terms of be. As a shooter for this series, the Knicks. I think the Knicks will win the series.

[Rich Paul]

Now what I, what I would like to see is. And I don't know if Mitch is going to do this, but I always told you Styles make fights, right? And so everyone's talking about Karl Anthony Towns pulling Wemby away from the basket and such and so on and so forth. But I think if, if you start Carter Bryant instead of Champagney, because you don't need the shooting as much in this. I mean, you need it. But, but if you start.

[Max Kellerman]

That's another over exuberant puppy, though. Now you got three of them on the floor, but here's two of them in the starting line.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'm saying. If you start Carter Bryant, now you put, you put Wimby on Hart and you put Carter Bryant on Karl Anthony Towns versus.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a really interesting idea.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Versus, if you don't and you start Wimby and now you can still put him on Hart, but now you put in a smaller player on Karl Anthony Towns if you have to put Vassell or. You can't put champagne. You can't put any of those guys. You can't put champagne. Fox, how long do you think.

[Max Kellerman]

How long do you think Bryant stays like he's going to get in foul trouble Pretty quick on Kat.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing. You're able to. But Cat can also get in foul trouble.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Who.

[Rich Paul]

He's been prone to do so. But I'm just saying for the sake of the matchups. And now you bring Champagney off the bench when they come in with whether It's Shamet or McBride and somebody has to go out, you can. You can adjust it or you come back with Cornette when Wemby goes out.

[Max Kellerman]

So you got 10 minutes. You got Castle on Brunson.

[Rich Paul]

Brunson, yes.

[Max Kellerman]

That's obvious, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And who's taking Bridges?

[Rich Paul]

Fox,

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's good. Bridges has size.

[Rich Paul]

Or Vassell just put Vasel on Bridges.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, Vassell. Vassell on Bridges. So Fox is on Anunoby.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

So what was. Where's Fox?

[Rich Paul]

That's what I'm saying. I would put.

[Max Kellerman]

Got to start Fox because those live ball turnovers.

[Rich Paul]

I would put him on Bridges.

[Max Kellerman]

He's not Fox on Bridges. Just give up that matchup a little. He'd do a decent job.

[Rich Paul]

Or Fox can guard Brunson, too.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but I think the. It's not that Fox can't do it. Fox defends his position really well. But the strategic advantage that the Castle is.

[Rich Paul]

Castle, yes, of course. You put a bigger man. Yes. That can take the bump. No problem with that. But what I'm saying is I would much rather put Fox on Bridges.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, Fox.

[Rich Paul]

And now you have.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm saying you don't need to win every matchup.

[Rich Paul]

No, you don't. Because there's gonna be a lot of switching anyway. You just wanna make sure that when you switch one, you can switch. That's number one. There's nobody. I don't see them doubling. When they were doubling Shane in the beginning of the series, that's when a lot of the open shots was for Caruso and McCain. Those guys.

[Max Kellerman]

No, if you have Castle, you don't have to double anyone.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but even they. They had Castle and they still double Shay to begin with. Then they. They took that off.

[Max Kellerman]

They figured that out.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, and they figured it out same way with Brunson, because he takes a double team too. But you don't have to do it when you have those guys that can actually switch. If you switch off and you get A ball screen. And now you get Fox, you get another ball screen. Now you get Vasel. Another ball screen, now you get Harper. You know, so there's a way.

[Max Kellerman]

But one thing I don't. I think the, the Wemby thing is super interesting on Hart. The only thing is you're using your best defensive asset on. After I just said Hart gets hot and they're going to win. But you're using your best defensive asset on the least threatening offensive player.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that means he can help.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And you talking about. Here's the other thing. It's not like Josh Hart is. Who's got OG for sale.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It's not like. It's not. Josh Hart is a, is a, is a big time player in big moments that we know. But you would say, okay, his shooting is not the best, but he makes big shots in big moments. So that's not to concern. I'm not concerned about that with Josh. I think Josh should make big shots. But if Wimby's closing out much harder, it's much different of a closeout. He can actually close out from the dotted line and still contest.

[Max Kellerman]

You close out and there's no way to close out and still.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. That would be my adjustment for the Spurs. Now my adjustment.

[Max Kellerman]

I love. That's super interesting.

[Rich Paul]

My adjustment for the Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Is different in this case, for this series. I am playing through Carl Anthony Towns.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Because they've been doing it all playoffs.

[Rich Paul]

Really. Because I just don't want to wear down Jalen, you know, and this, this idea of him having to bring the ball up every time. And you got Castle, you got Harper, you got these guys guarding you all game. By the time you get to the fourth quarter, I need his legs to be, to be fresh because we're going to need him to bring us home

[Max Kellerman]

if, if, if Mitch Robinson can play, if his finger doesn't really hurt him. The Knicks don't have a very deep bench, but they have three very capable guys.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they have McBride.

[Max Kellerman]

They have four really capable guys.

[Rich Paul]

They have Mc. Well, listen, they have. Clarkson has experience. He's played in the finals before.

[Max Kellerman]

That's the fourth guy I'm thinking of.

[Rich Paul]

You got McBride, his big shots.

[Max Kellerman]

McBride is the best offensive player off your bench.

[Rich Paul]

You have Mitchell, who's really the first

[Max Kellerman]

guy off the bench.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And then I don't know if they play Alvarado at all in this series. Maybe he's a pass here and there. Yeah. Maybe spot minutes here and there. But also you have shamet who can hit shots. Who can hit shots. So it's not as deep as the spurs bench, but it's not, it's not, you know, scarce.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. You don't have five guys with size and this and that. And unlike the spurs, this guy can shoot, but he's small or he can't defend. This guy can defend, but he can't shoot. But they have, I think between Mitch Robinson and McBride and Shamet with the shot, they have three really capable guys who can do real minutes and hurt you.

[Rich Paul]

Now normally Mitch Robinson is a difference maker because obviously you can play Mitch Robinson and you can play Karl Anthony Towns together, but they also got two seven footers that can play together and one can play the outside Wimby if he wants to. So it's making out for a pretty great finals matchup because it's again, it's boxing, man. Like, you know, it's like first round, you kind of filling each other out. Second round, third round, the best thing

[Max Kellerman]

for the Knicks is the way it works out for them. What would concern me after a long layout like the rest is great for you, rest is great. And they've had the most rest in these playoffs and other than Mitch's finger, they're the healthiest. But it's the drawback is in that first game you can get caught on your heels.

[Rich Paul]

I would feel better if game one was in the guard.

[Max Kellerman]

That's. Well, see what I'm saying is I like the fact for the Knicks that they have to go on the road. And I'll tell you why.

[Rich Paul]

It makes you think, no, you might

[Max Kellerman]

lose that first game anyway because you're stale. Right. You haven't.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I see.

[Max Kellerman]

You're on the road anyway.

[Rich Paul]

Anyway, you're not expecting so all. You're not a serious until somebody on the road.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's by game two you're super rested. They're not. You're healthier than them. You've already got the rust off. You got a hell of a shot to get out of there with a split.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I'm not giving up game one. I'm trying to win both.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. I'm just saying, like what could go wrong for the Knicks in this is they're immediately down 01 on the road.

[Rich Paul]

So what? Yeah, that's nothing. That's being down 01, that's nothing.

[Max Kellerman]

They come back to the Garden and then once you get that rust off, if you, if you're really well rested, you should be a beast in game too.

[Rich Paul]

The thing I love about the two environments, because they're two totally different environments. But both fans nuts are at the highest level of fan fanatic that you can get.

[Max Kellerman]

And also very. Two very knowledgeable fans.

[Rich Paul]

Very knowledgeable. Different look because these San Antonio fans are used to being in the Finals. They've been there a number of times. Right. And the Knicks fans are just. They're Knick fans. They also have two teams crazy. And they can. They can feel it. They want to win it. They two teams 53 years in the making.

[Max Kellerman]

Very easy. Root for both.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, it's very easy.

[Max Kellerman]

Very easy. Like the Knicks have a very likable team and they've been in. And usually New York would play the villain, but the Knicks have sucked for so long and have been without.

[Rich Paul]

I think there's a lot of people rooting for the Knicks to win and I think there's just as many people rooting for the spurs to win as

[Max Kellerman]

opposed to rooting for the other team to lose. The Thunder got a bad guy reputation, I think in this. In the. Because like they're the flopping team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. They're the defending champs who flop and they're looking for the whistle. And Wemby's very easy to root for.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I think this is a great, great, great story and matchup and stage for the NBA. I really do. Anytime the Knicks are in the fight. First of all, when the Knicks and the Bulls and the Lakers or Celtics are good, the NBA is fantastic. They're in a great spot. So the fact the Knicks is back in the finals, that is just fantastic.

[Max Kellerman]

Bulls got to get their game up. Lakers are in the playoffs. Bulls are in the finals.

[Rich Paul]

Who else have a way?

[Max Kellerman]

Celtics won a championship recently. They got a great young core.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Bulls got to get their game up.

[Rich Paul]

They can get there.

[Max Kellerman]

Finals are here. I love this matchup and this series. And I'm going to take you through a few of my favorite picks on Fanduel as we get started. And remember, all finals long, Fanduel has the best same game parlay pricing in the game. So if you're riding with your favorite players, make sure to head to Fanduel. Jalen Brunson. The over under is 24 and a half. I mean, they got this on the money. And I'm going to take the under on Jalen Brunson. Castle is a tough, tough matchup. That guy's going to get it after it defensively, Jalen's going to be a little back on his heels. They haven't played in a while they're on the road they're going to run the offense through Cat a little more. I like the under here OG Anunoby. I like the over 15 and a half points because they're going to have to make up that offense from somewhere. I think OG is a big game player. I think he's going to hit some big shots. I like the over on 15 and a half points for OG champagne. Two and a half threes. I like the over on Champagne's threes. I can see Champagne hitting three threes at least just from the corner. I think that that's pretty good value. And de' Aaron Fox five and a half assists. I like the under only because my gut would tell me the over under before and a half assists. I think there's some value there. The bet will be live in the FanDuel app. Don't forget to check out the great offers. They'll have all playoffs as well. FanDuel play your game.

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[Max Kellerman]

The playoffs are here and you can predict the action all the way to

[Rich Paul]

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[Max Kellerman]

Predict the spread, the total points and

[Rich Paul]

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[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

Got a voicemail.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's do the voicemail. Jim from Miami has a voicemail for us.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. What up fellas? This is Jim from Miami and I just wanted to ask you guys a question. Seeing that wimby's in the NBA Finals right now and we all kind of see that he could have a. He's kind of in a goat trajectory, you could say. I just wanted to know what is a realistic amount of championships that you think that he would have to attain within a. I'll say about like a 17 or 20 year career where you can say he could legitimately be in that go conversation. Thank you, guys. Keep doing your thing.

[Max Kellerman]

This is, this is no knock on LeBron's longevity, because that's great. Longevity never meant as much to me as peak. So, for example, like in baseball, the classic example is who's greater? Sandy Koufax, or I literally just said this to Bill Simmons a few hours ago. Sandy Koufax or Nolan Ryan? Sandy Koufax's peak was the highest ever. NOLAN Ryan pitched 25 years. Sandy Koufax had six good years, right? I think when you talk about greatness, what you're talking about is Koufax. Nolan Ryan was great, but his. So LeBron had both. LeBron had a stupid high peak and absurd, certain. So I don't think Wemby needs to play 20 years. But if he gets 12, like 15 year career and 12 peak seasons and he winds up with a handful of

[Rich Paul]

chips, four rings, five rings, four, five

[Max Kellerman]

rings, a bunch of MVPs, and at his best, you look at it and you go, man, Jordan was great, LeBron was great. Kobe, Bird, they're all great. But this dude was 7 5. What could you do?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, listen, I think. Here we go. Putting. I don't want to have the goat conversation about Wemby. I just want to enjoy what we're seeing in Wemby and hopefully he stays healthy and we see him have a lengthy career where we can look back and then determine that.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's the thing though, but I want

[Rich Paul]

to stay in the moment.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's the real thing about Wemby, though, in terms of the goat conversation. Health is the big. Is the big caveat, right? He is better set up to be the goat than anyone ever. In other words, coming into the league. Jordan, people have just finally understood how good he was in the Olympics, right? And Bobby Knight's running around saying he's the best player ever and all this stuff, but they didn't know in the draft how good he was, right? LeBron comes in with all this fanfare. He winds up in a situation that wasn't great, right? Wemby comes in because of his size. Everyone knows how great he is coming in. He is super young. He takes care of himself like LeBron takes care of himself. Like he studies how to. How to take care of himself. He gets to the best possible organization he could get to. By the way, because of injury, they're able to stockpile before the rules change. Stupid high level draft picks to surround him with incredible talent.

[Rich Paul]

Pop coached him his rookie season.

[Max Kellerman]

Pop. There's never been a player entering the NBA more set up to be the goat than Wemby. It's. The table is set for him if he can stay healthy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You say the goat. I say best ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, right. The best ever is always the latest one who's the best, because they'll build on what came before. If he fulfills his potential, what's it gonna be? A guy who's nine feet tall comes next. Like, how do you get. Like, at a start, or you can't get anything.

[Rich Paul]

What are you gonna do? But that's why I say, like, you know, I think when you talk about peak, the way you feel about peak and longevity is the way I feel about goat and best ever, two different things. I think Michael's the goat. I think LeBron's the best ever, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

I could go with that. In other words, you're saying LeBron came along after Michael, so he built on what Michael did. So, yeah, I agree with that. Like, whoever is the greatest player of his era, whoever's in the most current era, is the best player ever. Right. If you just took the other guy out of his era, didn't teach him anything new and dropped him down, his game is more primitive than the guy came after.

[Rich Paul]

Because you. Because only in basketball, you freeze history. So everyone freezes history with. With Mike. I was the biggest Mike fan ever. But you freeze history.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm never talking about the best. I'm always talking about the greatest. How you did against your contemporary.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but what I'm saying is you're gonna. If you sit here and say, like, you can sit here and say that he said he talked about Wemby being the goat. I don't know if it's possible, because you're gonna always go back to.

[Max Kellerman]

He might be more dominant in his era than LeBron or Michael or Kobe or Bill Russell or anyone in their era or.

[Rich Paul]

So would that make him the go. Would that make him the best ever?

[Max Kellerman]

He would. When Jordan came around, he became both. Right. Wemby might wind up being both. He might. We might look at him be like, yo, like, if Wemby. This is why you don't want to do this. And I get it. If Wemby won eight straight championships and eight straight MVPs, and eight straight finals MVPs, it's over.

[Rich Paul]

But evidently, that doesn't count.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course it does.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I didn't count for Bill Russell

[Max Kellerman]

then, because there were eight teams in the league.

[Rich Paul]

12 teams in the league. Those things don't.

[Max Kellerman]

30 teams.

[Rich Paul]

No, I just think we And Bill Russell.

[Max Kellerman]

Bill Russell got all the chips, but he wasn't the MVP every year. He didn't. He wasn't putting up 30 and, you know, like, the guy putting up the numbers, like. I'm just saying. Wemby has a chance to be Michael and LeBron and Will and Bill Russell and everybody rolled up into one. If he can stay healthy.

[Rich Paul]

If he can stay healthy, we're going to see something that we've never seen before.

[Max Kellerman]

And also no more with the ball down here. Ball should be up here.

[Rich Paul]

Now you want to coach the guy?

[Max Kellerman]

Keep the ball up here.

[Rich Paul]

Jesus.

[Max Kellerman]

Like. Like, sometimes it's like Wemby, you know, they can all get the ball when it's down here. When it's up here, no one can touch the ball. That's why, you know, Kareem with the sky hook, you can't get.

[Rich Paul]

The last thing Wemby needs you to do is. That's the last thing he needs.

[Max Kellerman]

The last person in the world who needs advice is Wemby, Especially from Max

[Rich Paul]

Kellerman about how to play basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Correct? Correct.

[Rich Paul]

If you were making, like, matzo ball soup, maybe so.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm like, what do I know about. I know how to eat some matzo ball soup, but not.

[Rich Paul]

But not basketball. I'm going to read an email.

[Max Kellerman]

Good.

[Rich Paul]

Hi. Oh, God. Here we go. High. Game over, team. My question is, back in 2016, LeBron played all 48 minutes, game seven. And did it multiple times throughout his career when he faced. When faced with the game seven. Why in today's game do superstars not play off 48 in a game seven? Thanks, guys. I don't know. You gotta be in hell of a shape to play all 48. And maybe their teams don't need them to play all 48.

[Max Kellerman]

And the circumstances demanded it. The reason I said, if the Martians have the death beam point, that whole Iguodala thing is I see the perfect example of the fate of the universe on the line as Game 7 against the Warriors. Warriors, Cavs. That means fate of the universe on the line. Right? That's what that is. So with the fate of the universe on the line, Superman or whoever, the superhero, they gotta play all 48. You gotta do what you have to do.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he played all 48. I think that was game seven of 2018 in Boston. I mean, I've seen him play all 48 in a ton of games, but gotta do it. I just know what it takes. It takes a whole hell of a lot to play all 48. And not just to play all 48, but to play all 48 and be the primary guy, that's the way I

[Max Kellerman]

said, wemby's a perfect storm. LeBron was the perfect storm. All this ability pass first mentality, huge, like he was fast, quick. If the Martians would have said for about 15 years, 15 straight years, if the Martians had the death beam pointed at Earth and said, take us to your greatest athlete. And we were to say, and this is why I never like it when a golfer gets the Sports Illustrated cover

[Rich Paul]

back in the best athlete slow down.

[Max Kellerman]

Because it's not what they mean by athlete. If the Martians have the death beam pointed at Earth and they say, rich, Paul, take. We're gonna have our greatest Martian athlete. He's gonna compete against your greatest earthling athlete in a series of athletic competitions. If your athlete wins, we leave the Earth alone. If we win, we blow up the Earth. And you would say, well, which competitions? Maybe I wanna take them to Tiger woods or whoever, right? So he says, nevermind which competitions. You know what I have. It's going to be a series of athletic competitions. You would have taken him for about 15 straight years to LeBron James, right? There was about a 15 year period on Earth where you would have taken him to LeBron James. At least 10 years where you take him to LeBron. But what is it? What if it's hand eye coordination? I need a golfer. Yeah, it might be that. But it's also running, jumping strength, all this kind of stuff, lateral stuff, thinking on your feet, solving problems, adjusting, all that stuff. You're going to take him to LeBron James.

[Rich Paul]

It was actually a 20 year period.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe not. He wasn't maybe number one for 20 years as an athlete overall, but it was a long time. Like, because you have guys like, for example, Miles Garrett now, right? Like, oh, now wait a minute. This is what I'm saying. You got other athletes. My point is LeBron, Miles Garrett.

[Rich Paul]

Do you know the type of athlete Miles Garrett is?

[Max Kellerman]

Why did I bring it up?

[Rich Paul]

It's unbelievable for Miles Garrett to be

[Max Kellerman]

that size and be that like that

[Rich Paul]

and dunk a basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

It's insane.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I mean, Mookie Betts is a have an athlete too.

[Max Kellerman]

No question. Mookie. But Mookie Betts doesn't have the size. It's a series of athletic competitions.

[Rich Paul]

No guy named Mookie is like past six.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Ever since Spike. Ever since, you know, Mookie Blaylock, Mookie

[Rich Paul]

Wilson, who was a beast.

[Max Kellerman]

Spike played him and do the right thing. Mookies are always kind of short, but

[Rich Paul]

he was blessed to be able to do anything.

[Max Kellerman]

The fact that Mookie Betts play shortstop. He comes up

[Rich Paul]

shortstop, shortstop. He can play golf. The man bowls, pickleball, surfs.

[Max Kellerman]

He's one of the greatest athletes of all time.

[Rich Paul]

All time.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'm saying I don't think people

[Rich Paul]

understand how great LeBron had the size, too.

[Max Kellerman]

So LeBron was a perfect storm as an athlete coming into the NBA. Wemby is the perfect storm in terms of all that. I can't explain the situation.

[Rich Paul]

Wimy, you cannot explain him. Just stop. Yeah, stop trying to explain Wemby.

[Max Kellerman]

We got. They got to remake Enter the Dragon just so. And it has to be Wimby, so it has to play Kareem. And then the question.

[Rich Paul]

Let me play Kareem, but who plays Bruce Lee?

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I'm saying. Maybe like a UFC fighter.

[Rich Paul]

I would. There's no replacement for Bruce Lee. Dana's right.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me tell you something everyone talks about, and Bruce Lee should. I've always told.

[Rich Paul]

Dana's right.

[Max Kellerman]

There's no reason Bruce Lee should be. I've told this to Dana White. He should be the logo for mma, right? For ufc, because he was the guy who popularized mixed martial arts. I'm gonna use whatever works. I just wanna say one thing about Bruce Lee. People think he had magical powers. No one's ever seen Bruce Lee fight. I never saw Bruce Lee in an actual fight. And now we could actually see guys fight. I don't know if he would compete in the UFC nowadays.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know either. But there's no replacement for Bruce Lee. I don't care what you say.

[Max Kellerman]

Who would be the guy? Who would you cast?

[Rich Paul]

Who would I. I mean, I'm gonna have a bad take if I say who I would cast, but I just

[Max Kellerman]

think it can't be, like, Conor McGregor. But it could be like. So it needs to be, like, an MMA star, right? Or, mm, who's the MMA star? Who could be an actor also, and isn't too big because it's gotta be when he fights Wemby.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not about to rack my brain thinking about this because sue is. This makes no sense. No, there's.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe not.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, there's no replace for Bruce Lee. Let's wrap it up, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

That's it.

[Rich Paul]

This is what you do. See, you like a kid, when they get sleepy, you just start doing stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

That's actually a great analogy. Yeah, that's actually a really good analogy.

[Rich Paul]

That's what you are this is like

[Max Kellerman]

your bar mitzvah right now. Today. You are a broadcast man. I'm just saying this is like a rite of passage. That's a great analogy.

[Rich Paul]

You get tired and sleepy and you just start doing anything. That's what happens to the show. Just come up, you know, let's go.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. Well, it's time for a nap. We'll see you two days, 21 and over in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-My reset call, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.