Spurs Tie Up WCF, Wemby Enters the GOAT Conversation, and Jalen Brunson’s Stardom | Game Over

Summary

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Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Spurs Tie Up WCF, Wemby Enters the GOAT Conversation, and Jalen Brunson’s Stardom

The Ringer | May 25, 2026

Guests: Antonio Daniels (NBA Champion, Analyst)

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Overview:

This episode drills into a pivotal moment in the NBA Playoffs: the San Antonio Spurs tying the Western Conference Finals (WCF), the meteoric GOAT (Greatest Of All Time) rise of Victor Wembanyama, and the evolution of Jalen Brunson as a superstar and potential franchise great. Max Kellerman and Rich Paul are joined by Spurs champion Antonio Daniels to dissect on-court tactics, officiating trends, player psychology, and broader NBA trends, with lively banter and layered analysis.

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Key Discussion Points

The Spurs’ WCF Statement Win & San Antonio as Media Hub

• Opening Vibe: The episode opens with playful banter about pre-game activities and gratitude to the Spurs organization for hospitality ([01:18​]).
• San Antonio Buzz:
  • “People in the national media should think about buying houses in San Antonio for the next 10 or 20 years. You’re gonna be making a lot of trips to San Antonio this time of year.” — Max ([01:59])
• Market Culture:
  • Discussion on how smaller markets like San Antonio foster a more unified, hype-filled fan environment versus larger cities where “nobody’s too cool” to participate ([03:06]).

Game 4 Tactical Breakdown: Coaching Moves and Defensive Schemes

• Crucial Adjustments:
  • Mitch Johnson (Spurs coach) elected NOT to double-team Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, forcing Thunder shooters to beat them ([11:41], [11:59]).
• Thunder’s Shooting Woes:
  • The Thunder shot below 20% from three, highlighting the consequences of betting on open shooters vs. superstar isolation ([12:15], [12:25]).
• Wembanyama’s Defensive Gravity:
  • Max: “If Wemby is rotating or recovering...that shooter from that spot is 40% normally, he’s 20% now because they can’t see the basket.” ([12:25])
  • Rich: “He’s not just contesting...he’s X-ing out. The rotation is too far for him at that size.” Antonio: “There were viral moments of him at the rim, signaling for help because he was stretched too thin.” ([12:47]–[13:13])

Narratives, Officiating, and Flopping—Shai, Harden Comparisons

• Media Narratives & Focus:
  • “The conversation we should be having is these been the two best teams in the west all year. The flopping is a small talking point, not the conversation.” — Rich ([08:37])
• On Flopping & Ref Incentives:
  • Max: “Players are incentivized by the way the refs call the game...if they’re not rewarded, they don’t flop.” Antonios: “Shai falls the most—Tom Haberstroh checked the numbers.” ([08:12])
• Harden, LeBron, Shaq Precedent:
  • Players of unique size or skill of often refed differently (“They told us to dig on Shaq with a closed fist.” — Antonio, [18:42])
  • “If LeBron takes the ball and goes from point A to point B, who’s knocking him off? Nobody. That’s why he has to exaggerate for the call.” — Antonio ([19:19])
  • Max: “Just call the game straight up and down...to avoid players exaggerating.” ([19:31])

Conference Finals Stakes and Matchups

• Swing Games and Home-Court:
  • “Game five is more important for Oklahoma City—if San Antonio wins, they’ve beaten them in OKC twice.” ([22:13]–[22:26])
• Knicks’ Perspective:
  • Who should Knicks fans root for in the West? The pod agrees Knicks match up slightly better with San Antonio, but both OKC and SA are dangerous ([23:13]–[24:44]).
• Bench Depth & Shooting Variance:
  • “If the Spurs bench gets cold...the Knicks will be in a good spot, but if shots fall, it’s a different game.” ([25:07]–[25:23])

How Teams Handle Star Guards and Matchups

• What Cleveland Got Wrong:
  • “They kept switching James Harden with five fouls onto Jalen Brunson. You don’t need a coach to tell you to fight harder, deny the switch.” — Rich/Antonio ([30:04]–[31:20])
  • Max: “The question is not did the Cavs quit—they obviously quit. The question is why?” ([28:06])

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Player Spotlight: Wembanyama in the GOAT Conversation ([07:14], [59:55], [82:16])

• Antonio Daniels:
  • “Victor Wembanyama, to me, if he stays healthy, will be the best player to touch a basketball.”
• Debates if Wemby has the rare 'need to win' drive among international NBA stars:
  • “He may be the first international player that we feel like needs to win—he’ll be the face of the league.” — Rich ([59:48])
  • “Wemby’s going to be the first international player to be the face of the league.” — Antonio ([59:50])

Jalen Brunson’s Ascendance and “Optionality”

• Comparisons to Current & Past Stars:
  • Deep-dive on how Brunson allows a team to play different styles, on or off ball, and rises in playoff intensity ([51:00]–[55:19]; [62:13]).
• Would you take Brunson or...?:
  • Luka? “Brunson.” — Antonio & Antonio ([51:00]–[51:55])
  • Shea? Split camp: Antonio prefers the versatility (height, defense) but all revere Brunson’s playoff clutch gene ([49:21]–[50:22])
  • Cade Cunningham? “Playoffs, Brunson. Regular season, Cade.” ([55:53]–[56:09])
  • “There’s not a player in the league I’m taking over Jalen Brunson.” — Antonio ([81:51])
• Asset Management Lessons:
  • Rich on Dallas letting Brunson go: “You can’t lose him for nothing. Doesn’t matter. You signed the four years, 80 [million].” ([52:32]–[52:56])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• On the growing stature of Wemby:
  • “He’s going to be the greatest ever if he stays healthy.” — Max ([59:55])
• On analytics and heart:
  • “Analytics is like lampposts for the drunk person. They’ll hold you up but won’t get you home.” — Josh Hart, paraphrased by Antonio ([32:38])
• Comparing old & new guards:
  • Lists of past star guards, debate who ranks with Brunson and Shai, mid-range mastery, and “old head” wisdom ([35:01]–[36:08])
• On NY Knicks’ current mindset:
  • “The city of New York will not be satisfied just getting to the finals. The goalposts have moved.” — Max & Antonio ([39:00])
  • “They are feeding teams into a wood chipper.” — Max ([39:01])
• Historical Point Differential Stat:
  • “Highest point differential in history through 13 games: Knicks +234. Every other team in the top six won the championship.” — Max ([40:04])
• On key NBA playoff psychology:
  • “You need care bears in your locker room—not softness, but guys who care.” — Antonio ([62:18])
• Salary Cap Reform Wish-List:
  • “Teams should be rewarded for doing things the right way, drafting well and developing well.” — Antonio ([83:07])

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Detailed Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Description | Timestamp | |---------|-------------|-----------| | Cold Open & Spurs Hospitality | Light banter, thank you to SA, setup for the night | [00:00]–[02:31] | | Small Market, Big Energy | On community, crowd, culture in San Antonio | [02:31]–[03:12] | | Viral Takes & Flopping | Refs, flopping, Shai/Harden parallels | [04:26]–[08:37] | | Coaching Adjustments | Spurs defensive schematics; strategic non-doubling of Shai | [11:35]–[13:29] | | On How To Guard Superstar Guards | Team discipline vs. human nature; helping instincts | [14:00]–[14:52] | | Bench Players, Playoff Physicality | Physicality, hitting, who can handle playoff bumps | [15:02]–[16:22] | | Officiating and Fairness | Objectivity vs. reality; calls on Wemby, Shaq, LeBron | [17:04]–[20:22] | | Series Momentum | Must-wins, swing games, projections | [22:13]–[24:44] | | Knicks WCF/East Outlook | Knicks’ dominance, New York’s new expectations | [39:00]–[41:48] | | Coaches’ Credit—Mike Brown | On offensive/defensive switches and innovation | [42:23]–[44:52] | | Debates: Brunson vs. Top Guards | Would-you-rather, who’s irreplaceable | [49:21]–[64:55] | | All-NBA Team Debates | Who belongs, 65-game rule, "fourth team NBA" | [65:08]–[69:05] | | Load Management and Rule Evolution | Why the 65-game rule, league business implications | [69:05]–[70:45] | | NBA Salary Cap Ideals | Rewarding good drafting, not punishing core teams | [83:01]–[84:21] |

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Broadcast Talk & Analyst Culture

• On Reggie Miller Criticism:
  • Panel dismisses online hate, reflects on analyst roles and classic broadcast teams ([74:52]–[80:00]).
  • “If you say something good about somebody — being an analyst is like being an official; somebody gonna love you and somebody gonna hate you.” — Antonio ([78:13])

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Conclusion

This episode is a stakeholder's guide to the nuances dominating today’s NBA: playoff tactics, superstar psychology, organizational strength, and the narrative engines around teams and players. It’s as much about culture and history as the current moment, capturing how legacies are debated and made—especially under the dual spotlight now illuminating Victor Wembanyama and Jalen Brunson.

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Essential Quotes At-A-Glance

• "If he stays healthy, Wemby will be the best player to ever touch a basketball." — Antonio Daniels ([07:14])
• "Brunson—optional, versatile, playoff relentless—he’s not just a system guy. There’s not a player I’m taking over him." — Antonio ([62:13], [81:51])
• "Knicks vs. anybody. That’s their mindset. We don’t care who comes out." — Antonio ([41:20])
• "Teams should be rewarded for doing things the right way." — Antonio ([83:07])

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For anyone who missed the episode:
This is a rich, fast-paced, but accessible breakdown of why the NBA at this moment is so compelling—from Wembanyama's superstar ascension, to the Knicks’ transformation, to the chess match of playoff coaching, and the often-overlooked human elements driving success.
If you’re tracking the postseason, NBA player greatness debates, or changes in basketball culture, this episode is a must.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign. What an eventful day today.

[B]

It was an eventful day.

[A]

Well, it started off, you slept all day. Just.

[B]

Just to be clear, Definitely did not do that.

[A]

I got up this morning. I boxed.

[B]

Yes, you did.

[A]

Nowhere to be found.

[B]

That's true. I was sleeping when you were boxed.

[A]

I played 18 holes. You were nowhere to be found.

[B]

Oh, you played 18?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's why when we were supposed to meet at 2 o', clock, you didn't

[A]

get there till 4. Never mind all that. I play 18 max. Yeah, you had three lunches while I was playing.

[B]

I had. I did have a lunch while I was waiting for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then I had another lunch when you got.

[A]

Then we went to a game. A great game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look who we brought with us.

[B]

Yeah, we got a Spurs champion.

[A]

Yeah, we lucked up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He just so happened to text because we. We text during the season. I was like, oh, I wonder if he'll be able to do the show. He's a nice guy. How could he tell us no? Right, Right.

[B]

That's called Antonio Daniel.

[A]

That's called taking advantage.

[B]

Antonio Daniels beat us here. We were at the game, he got here.

[A]

He's a. First of all, he's always been a professional.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So him beating us here is not a surprise. Why are you surprised by that?

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

You're always early too, though. Yeah, but him beating you here, not me. I mean.

[B]

Well, I saw the traveling with you. That's why. Antonio, what's going on, man? Rich talking about you like you're not even here.

[A]

Yeah, no, he's a professional. Always been a professional. But before we start the show, I want to thank the spurs organization because they really first. First class.

[B]

First class organization.

[A]

First class is an understatement. But, you know, I always talk about how important it is for young men to start their careers off. And I always name a couple organizations. Spurs are always at the top. But more importantly, tonight, they were kind enough to allow us to use the spurs club to shoot the show here. So I can't thank them enough. I'm not surprised that I asked and they said absolutely yes, but I don't take it for granted. So I want to thank and listen.

[B]

People in the national media should think about buying houses in San Antonio for the next 10 or 20 years. You're gonna be making a lot of trips to San Antonio this time of year.

[A]

Good thing is only two and a half hours away for us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he lives here, so he'd have to go anywhere.

[C]

Yeah. I'm a Good. Five to seven minutes from here.

[B]

Five to seven. Five to seven minutes from driving.

[A]

Driving.

[C]

That's right. From where we're recording right now. Yeah.

[A]

I get jealous when I come to San Antonio for a number of reasons. One cost of living.

[B]

Everyone's nice here, too.

[A]

Everyone.

[B]

The arena security is.

[A]

Everyone's nice on the golf course. Everybody was nice today at the boxing gym, everyone's nice. I mean, the arena was an understatement, man.

[B]

That's a live crowd.

[A]

Did you feel like you were at the basketball game, or did you feel like you were at, like, a premier

[B]

soccer match, pep rally or something? I mean, like.

[A]

No, I mean, the chants, the music, the people are in tune. That matters. Nobody's. Here's the other thing. Nobody's too cool in San Antonio.

[C]

Ain't that the truth.

[A]

Nobody's too cool.

[C]

I think that's a small market thing. I think that's a small, big city. It's a big city, but it's a small market.

[A]

That's fair.

[C]

Oklahoma City, everybody gonna have their shirts on, right? No if, ands or buts about Cleveland.

[A]

The same thing.

[C]

Milwaukee, the same thing. But when you start to get to those other markets, you don't want to put a shirt on over your Gucci or over your Louis. You know what I mean?

[B]

Too cool for school.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Like here. Well, you stand. They put you on these on the jumbotron. If you ain't got the shirt on right.

[A]

That matters. Yeah.

[B]

Listen, you know what I noticed tonight? Because the spurs blew them out. I mean, how else do you. 20 plus point game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The refs called it up and down, Antonio. They called it up and down. Straight up and down. Well, yes, I did. That thing I said, it's so hard to tell that something's going to go viral. Right. I just mentioned something that was, like, very obvious, Right. For some reason. But I didn't even know, like, you know, what's going to be on my tombstone. I want Iguodala. I had no. Why did that go viral? Why did that become a big deal?

[A]

Because it was absurd.

[B]

No, it wasn't. Everyone knows what I mean. Who follows basketball. Open shot. Iguodala doesn't miss that open shot.

[A]

The type of dude. But there's no offense to Andre Iguodala, but even he thought you were crazy when you said that.

[B]

Not really.

[A]

Did you talk to him about it?

[B]

I'm not going to reveal.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I can't reveal. Private.

[C]

Okay. I want to know what you said that went viral.

[B]

I said, oh, I Said that the refs are. That the refs are. The shades flopping on every possession. That the refs are letting Hartenstein get away with holding Wemby, which is. If they're going to let him get away with it, that's good on. Good on Hartenstein. He should do it. But I didn't like that Chet was stepping on his foot because I think that could result in an injury. Right. Like that. That. And. But the fact is it's happening in plain sight of the refs. So either they're choosing not to call it, the league is telling them not to call it, or they're missing it if it's in front of them. Any way you slice it, just. Just call the game straight up and down. When they did that tonight, there was one play. Okay, Antonio. There's one play where Shay flopped and they. They blew the whistle. They gave him the whistle.

[A]

On which play? The de'? Aaron?

[B]

Yeah, the Fox play. But you're entitled to miss a call here and there. It's happening fast. It's when you miss it consistently throughout the game. And it favors a certain.

[A]

They let him play tonight. Tonight. They let them play.

[B]

They let them play both ends.

[C]

I mean, I'm indifferent here, obviously. This is home for me. Played here, won a championship here. This series, to me, is different than any series I've ever covered.

[A]

How?

[C]

Just because we've never had these conversations about any other series. Like, have you ever talked about another player flopping like this? Like Shay?

[B]

Yes, Harden. There have been times in the past where I felt like Harden was too intent on getting the call and not intent enough about. On hitting the shot. And I thought it cost him certain games. And I did talk about Harden that way.

[A]

I tell you what, in the conference finals, though, right? Regular season's different.

[C]

I couldn't agree with you.

[B]

No, no, no. It was in the playoffs. I'm trying to remember if it was conference finals or if it was to get to the conference finals. I'm. But Harden, unfortunately, also went viral for something I said about him recently. Like, couple, like last week saying, like, if bringing Harden in to win a championship is like electing Trump to fix your country, you know, it's not a great idea. But the point is, I felt bad. I didn't mean to be that harsh on James Harden and insult him like that, you know, because I didn't know it was going to go viral. But the point is, I've been rough on Harden for that reason.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I'm not.

[B]

It's smart of Harden. It's smart of Shai if they're going to blow the whistle for you. That's why I think it's on the refs to call it straight up for sure.

[C]

I think what gets lost here is the narratives that are surrounding this particular series take away from the beauty of the sport. So now we're not even. No matter how you feel about Che or how you feel about Wemby, and I'll tell you how I feel about both of them. Victor Wembanyama, to me, if he stays healthy, will be the best player to touch a basketball.

[A]

He said that.

[C]

Been saying, honestly, that's how I feel about Victor Wenuma.

[B]

He's gonna be the goat if he stays healthy.

[C]

No question about it. Shai Gilders Alexander is one of the toughest, tough shot makers in the NBA by a long shot. You can take shai out of 2026 and put him in 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s. And his ability to make top tough shots gets drowned out by the talk about him flopping.

[B]

But that's not. That's what I'm saying. It's not Shay's fault. Like, these players are incentivized by the way the refs call the game. If Shay was playing back then, he wouldn't flop all the time because it's not going to help him.

[C]

He's not rewarded for it, right?

[B]

He's not rewarded for sure. He's rewarded for it. That's why I'm not mad at Shai. Shea's a great player.

[C]

But. But here's the thing. When we say things like that, it points straight to Shay. So we can say he flops on every play and. And then maybe we don't mean it to him. As opposed to saying he's rewarded for flopping.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's. Both things are true. One incentivizes the behavior, but Shay's the one doing the behavior. And by the way, Tom Habestrow looked this up.

[C]

I saw. Yeah, I saw.

[B]

And who flops?

[C]

The.

[B]

Who falls the most? He said flopping is subjective, but falling is objective. Who falls the most? And Shay falls the most by a bit. And then who? James Harden.

[C]

Okay, so let's have this conversation then. Let's have this conversation.

[A]

The conversation we should be having is these been the two best teams in the west all year.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

That should be the conversation.

[B]

No question.

[A]

If you want to talk about flopping within that, that's a small agreed talking point, but it's not a conversation.

[B]

All right. By the way, we haven't even started the show. You want to start the show?

[A]

I thought the show was starting.

[B]

This is the hell are you. This is called the cold open in the business.

[A]

That was a hot open.

[C]

It's a hot open.

[A]

That wasn't cold. Yeah.

[B]

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[A]

Talking and clear and game [e-mail] Stop calling from the.

[B]

From 1992. Whatever technology using get a. Get a new cell phone. Call the calling fax machine on 17th Street. It's, you know. Come on.

[A]

Well, I mean, you got to applaud the effort, though.

[B]

Yeah. All right. And you are. You gave him the email. Game over with Max Kellerman. Rich Paul. We got Antonio Daniels with us. We're going to get into the series right now.

[A]

Now you're going to be able to talk. The fact that I have somebody on the show with me that actually knows basketball.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm so happy to have Antonio.

[B]

Yeah, me, too.

[A]

Just saying. Yeah. Because I go through a lot with Max.

[B]

He does.

[A]

He's my guy.

[B]

He does.

[A]

But some of the stuff he says,

[B]

I have an opinion.

[A]

Like me talking boxing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I haven't seen genius. I. I have an opinion. Sometimes it's not as well informed as his, but it's my opinion.

[C]

Okay. That's one way of looking at it, right? Sure.

[B]

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[C]

Sure.

[A]

Okay, so two juggernauts in the West. Yeah, that should be the conversation for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's going to be a slugfest. We've seen it tonight. I thought. I thought tonight I thought Mitch Johnson actually did a great job of countering the Thunder tonight. What did he do? First of all, he did not double Shay.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

That was a big, big deal. Because, look, these guys are in the NBA. If you double a guy at this point of the season, in the playoffs, the conference finals, you're leaving a guy wide open. They're going to get a rhythm, they're going to make shots, and they have

[B]

a team of shooters, too. Yes.

[A]

But tonight the Thunder shot less than 20% from three. Right. Now, I don't know how that's going to fare going forward in the series, but tonight they do.

[B]

Can I say something about Wemby, though, and his defense? To me, Wemby, if he's rotating or recovering, when he just puts his hand up, my feeling is if that shooter from that spot is. Is 40%, normally he's 20% now because they can't see the basket. Right. Like so. And he'll at least make an effort and put his hand up and it affects the shooting.

[A]

But here's the difference, though. Max and Antonio can attest to this. When you double Shay, here's the difference. Wimby's not just context contesting. He's xing out. He has to run all the way. The rotation is too far for him to do that at that size.

[C]

And if you saw in the first three games, it's a couple of times where he's standing at a rim and he's trying to send somebody else out.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And these went viral because they're trying to keep him. They're trying to keep him in the hole. They're trying to keep him in the hole. And you're right, because what they did today in Game four, they came in with the same game plan against OKC that they had against Minnesota.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

They were going to take the ball out of Anthony Edwards hands.

[B]

Right? Right.

[C]

Difference is, okay, so he has more shooters in Minnesota. So they were content with Julius Randle or Jaden McDaniels or Terence Shannon Jr. Or anybody else.

[A]

You can live with that.

[C]

You can live with that. They tried it in Game one with Alice Caruso. You know, What I mean, they tried it in game. So it comes to a point, right?

[A]

Joe McCain, Wiggins, Jalen Williams. Like Williams came off the bench tonight. He hasn't even played. He hit back to back threes in the corner with women contesting. This is what I'm saying. You can't.

[B]

The whole team can shoot, but that's one of the reasons OKC is hard to beat. Because like Isaiah Joe or someone like that, you're leaving a 40% three point shooter open if you double. And if you don't double, it's like, well, don't let, don't let Shea beat you. Make someone else, that is.

[C]

And from a player perspective, that's so much easier said than done.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, playing against Steve Nash, what people used to say all the time, just stay home, everybody stay home and allow Steve Nash to do his thing.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But you know this by, it's basketball, human nature. To help.

[A]

To help. Absolutely.

[C]

You know what I mean? Just to turn your head. If your teammate gets beat, you're not just gonna leave him out the door. Right? Right. Things that you've been doing since you were in the third grade.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Gap discipline on an NFL line.

[C]

Right. So when somebody gets beat, you know what you're not gonna do? You ain't just gonna stay out there with your man and get somebody a wide open layer. You're gonna go and you wanna help. But what they gonna do, they gonna flip that ball out, they're gonna spray that ball out and hit a three.

[B]

Right?

[C]

So discipline when you're playing against, when you get to this particular point, little things, the margins are sometimes the difference between winning and losing games.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

The other thing that, that the spurs did tonight on the offensive end, when Isaiah Joe McCain was in the game, they brought them up, whoever they were guarding, they put screen with that guy. Put him in the action.

[C]

They put him in the action.

[A]

Now make them guard. Which I again, I thought was a great adjustment by Mitch tonight. Not saying that those guys can't guard, but you can't allow them just to be on the other end and get wide open threes and not play no defense on the other end.

[B]

That's why when you say what they're looking for in the NBA nowadays is a team of Scottie Pippen's, you can't really hide guys, they're going to get found. So you got to be, you have to be able to field the team who's going to play most of the minutes, who can play on both ends.

[A]

It was also very Physical tonight. And this is why, when you look at this year's draft, the guard play, who can. What guard can play in this series? Taking that bump being brought up, I

[C]

know who comes to my mind immediately.

[A]

Who?

[C]

Darius Acuff.

[A]

I take him.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Darius Acuff also takes him up very high to get.

[A]

Because he's 65 and 215.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Right. So you can switch all. You can bring him up all you want. He's going to be able to take that bump like tonight. Cassell and Casey and Wallace, it was just physical. And you know, the bump is coming and they were still able to withstand it. That's just the difference in today's game.

[B]

And I thought the refs called a really good game.

[A]

They did. No, the ref.

[B]

They let them play really good. That's the way. When they say, oh, the refs let them play, but guys are getting mugged and held and tripped and all that stuff. That's not letting them play. That's letting them get away with stuff. Letting them play is tonight where they basically let them play.

[C]

I thought, I know the difference.

[B]

Really.

[C]

And I'm being honest.

[B]

I don't know the difference. If a guy take, take, take Hartenstein when he's holding Wemby by both arms and won't let go and Wemby can't

[C]

move, this is what I'll say, though, and I'm being honest. Obviously, I'm not. And I know how this works. Because if I agree with you, then Oklahoma City Thunder fans are saying, oh, you hate Oklahoma City. If I disagree with you, San Antonio spurs fans say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you were a Spur and

[B]

you're saying, don't care.

[C]

This sounds about any of that. But here's the thing, Max. You can go through tape from these four games and you'll find everybody holding everybody, because everybody is supposed to be holding everybody this time of the year.

[B]

But there's a. But there's a way. Look, there's a way to do it. Like in boxing, for example, when the ref is on this side and you want to. And you're. You're holding them and you get a shot on the other side where he. Or you hit him a little low on the hip where he can't see you, you're getting away with it. The ref can't see it. If the ref can't see it, they can't call.

[C]

Okay, so.

[B]

But if you're doing it in plain

[C]

sight, here's the thing. I'm going to tell you the Difference between basketball and boxing. Yeah. If you can put three referees in a ring.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Then we can have that conversation. But it's easier to get away with in boxing when I can keep my eye on one official. And I know what I can get away with.

[B]

No doubt. But tonight it was not the same. They were playing hard. There was contact, but it wasn't the same. Like, there weren't the same kind of cheating moves on both. Like, the way they're playing Wemby is against the rules. Actually, I'm not talking about. I'm not talking about playing physical. I'm talking about doing illegal things in plain sight of the ref. And the thing about. This happened to your guy. This happened to LeBron. This happened to Shaq.

[C]

This happened to Michael Jordan.

[B]

This happens to Wemby, but more with the other three, because when a guy has a certain physical size advantage that people think, oh, it's just unfair. What are you going to do? A lot of times that guy doesn't get the whistle because they think, well, how else can you play him?

[C]

100%.

[B]

Yeah, but it's bullshit.

[C]

You know it is, but it's also reality. Do you know what they allowed us to get away with on Sha?

[B]

Yeah, I saw it.

[C]

Do you realize what they allowed?

[B]

Just describe some of it.

[C]

Okay, I will tell you this. You know how you dig?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

They used to tell us to dig on Shaq with a closed fist.

[A]

Come on, man.

[C]

You know what I mean? Think about that. So when I'm digging and I'm trying to knock the ball out of his hands, this does nothing. You hit it so. Exactly. You're swinging at the ball with a closed fist. So in case you miss, you're hitting his forearm.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

This is a tail. That's as old as time. Guys in this league that are bigger and stronger are always officiated differently. LeBron has been officiated different his whole career.

[B]

No doubt.

[C]

James Harden, who you talked about, why do you think some of these guys start flopping? Because if they don't. Be honest with me. If LeBron takes this ball and he goes, I'm going from point A to point B, who's going to knock him off that line?

[A]

Nobody.

[C]

See, that's why he has.

[B]

But this is what. This is what I'm saying. You're making my point.

[A]

Not 6, 9, 2, 6.

[B]

You're saying, since the referees will not just always tonight. I thought they called the game up and down. The stuff that they let them get away with this stuff. You got to let them get away with in a playoff game. Right, okay, for sure. But. But when they do the thing that you're talking about, which is, well, how are you going to guard them? Just look the other way. That leads to a product that you don't want. Because now guys like LeBron or, or. Or Wemby have to exaggerate what's going on to get the call. Then once you start that, what's the difference between that then It's a slippery slope. Now. Guys like Shay and Harden aren't getting fouled, and they're. And LeBron has done this, too, and they're trying to sell the call. It's so. So to avoid that, just call the game. I thought the. I'll stay positive because everyone's like, oh, the media is being negative. I thought the refs called the game straight up and down tonight.

[C]

Officiating is objective. Yeah, it's objective. We can all sit here and watch one play, and I may say it's a foul. And Rich, you may say, well, I'm not sure. And Mac, you may say, you know what? It is a foul. Because officiating is subjective. So when you. I tell you the one thing I wish the league would do that I know would never happen, I wish whoever is the crew that calls game one calls the entire series. Because now I don't have to worry about adjusting. Now I know as a player how the game is going to be officiated. We know certain officials have a reputation for allowing a lot more physicality than others. If you are the crew for game one, if you have Scott Foster and Zach Zarba and Tony Brothers for game one, they should be that crew for the entire.

[A]

Actually, don't mind that.

[C]

Me neither.

[A]

Actually, don't mind that.

[B]

You know, baseball got with the. Got with the computer, you know, with the. What's it called? What do they call that system now where they're calling balls and strikes and you can challenge balls and strikes. It made umpiring better because umps can't get away with. You know, they would give Greg Maddox six inches off the plate. Right. And then every. You know, Levon Hernandez once threw a great game in the World Series. Didn't have to throw a strike the whole game. That's what I'm saying. Like, anything that forces the officials to get their game up to. To be less subjective to me is better.

[A]

Tonight there were calls that weren't called. That was called previous games, definitely in the regular season.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Some of these plays tonight would have been fouls in the regular season for sure. But even in game three, they were fouls. Tonight they weren't.

[B]

So that's true.

[A]

But it's all different. Officiate crew, like you said.

[C]

I have said that for as long as I have played basketball, as analysts, as players, as fans, as coaches, as lovers of the sport. All you want is consistency one way or another, max.

[A]

Game five is more important. For who?

[B]

Oklahoma City? Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

[A]

Why?

[C]

Because if San Antonio wins Game 5, that means they beat you in Oklahoma City twice.

[B]

Twice, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think normally who win game five win the series, they say.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, what is that percentage?

[B]

I don't know the percentage off the top of my head, but to me, actually, game two is the swing game of every series ever played because one of two things is sure to happen. Either one team is extremely likely to win the series because they're up 2 0, or it's anybody series because it's 1 1. And whoever has home court has, like, a slight advantage. Right. But they've been. They've been trading off.

[A]

This was a win tonight, for this was must.

[B]

You cannot lose game four at home.

[A]

And now Oklahoma City got down two one. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

They got to defend home. Now, if the Oklahoma City loses game five, they lose the series. Right. You agree that's fair.

[A]

You agree, you expect that.

[B]

But who should Knicks fans be rooting for?

[A]

Knicks fans, should anybody. The way they play.

[B]

We're going to get to that in a second. But between these two teams, if I'm a Knicks fan. Yeah.

[A]

San Antonio, I'd probably say San Antonio. San Antonio.

[B]

I agree. I think the Knicks, as I've been saying all along, they had good success against San Antonio. I kept saying there were three, and they lost that game at San Antonio, but, like by a possession. But they beat him in New York and they beat him on a neutral. They beat him for the Cup. And there's something.

[A]

I was at the cup game, though.

[B]

The spurs were missing a lot of shots. You were saying. Yeah.

[A]

Yes, but I talked about it. I said in the Knicks Cav series, the key word to that series was toughness. The tougher team was going to win that series. The Knicks are the tougher team. It's showing in this series. I thought it would be shooting because

[B]

I thought that spurs don't shoot it well enough.

[A]

But if the spurs do shoot it well.

[C]

Yep. With Vasale and Champ, if.

[A]

If Kelder can give you one or two, if Castle has. If Castle got the jump shot going, you're in trouble. Yeah, right. Champagne gets some open Looks, they missed a lot of open looks tonight, but they were so great on the defensive end. But I, I'm just saying if I'm the Knicks, the way that the Knicks have won 10 consecutive playoff games, it's extremely hard to win 10 in a row.

[C]

I don't care who you playing against,

[A]

it don't matter who you are.

[B]

By the way, they lost two by one point.

[A]

Right. And they, they, they were so to me, if I'm the Knicks, my mentality is I don't care who comes out

[B]

of that for sure. Well, here's.

[A]

I like my chance.

[B]

Look, I would say normally they for whatever reason match up better with, with San Antonio, but without Jalen Williams, that's not really that. That's not a full strength Thunder team.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So they, so they might look at the Thunder and go that like you say, either way they match up better with the spurs. But the Thunder are not healthy.

[A]

Yeah, but even in that series, I'm telling you, the spurs, if the spurs can advance and it's the Spurs, Knicks, it all goes back to shooting. If the spurs don't get cold because their bench come, they got so many options they can do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They can go big. They can start Cornet and bring Champagney off the bench.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And start Vercel at the, at the, at the issue.

[B]

The issue they have. That's why I thought the spurs would win the championship in the middle of the season. But I did think they have one structural issue on the team which, which is you have two players playing a lot of minutes who are important to your success. The reason, like if they want it this year, they'd be a little ahead of schedule is because Castle and Harper don't shoot it well yet. And when you have guys who are going to be playing a lot of minutes and neither one shoots it well, especially against a good shooting team, you're just at a disadvantage in order to win the game. Those guys can't be cold. Right. So, so you know, that's. If the Thunder beat the spurs, it's going to be because. It's going to be because the spurs are starting hitting shots.

[A]

So Max, when you don't necessarily quote, unquote, shoot it well, you have to dissect the type of shots that's being taken. Guys shoot it well on swing, swing actions. Guys shoot it well on catch and shoot. They don't shoot it well on is off the dribble.

[B]

I mean I saw some guys, I saw them swinging the ball pretty good a couple times. There were shots from the corner hitting the backboard. But that wasn't air balls.

[A]

Yes. On both sides. Jalen Williams tonight versus Jay and Jalen Williams, Game three.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Two totally different people. You know, he's not going to. He's not that bad of a shooter tonight.

[B]

It was just an ugly game. Just something in the air.

[C]

But we were talking about this prior to coming on. You also knew. We know role players play better at home.

[A]

At home, yes.

[C]

So what Oklahoma City did two nights ago when they got 76 points from their bench.

[A]

Yeah, that wasn't gonna happen.

[C]

He did what he did.

[A]

Yeah, that wasn't gonna happen.

[C]

Jared McCain did what? You know that's not gonna happen again.

[A]

Not again.

[C]

Right. That's not gonna happen again. And you brought up a great point because one of the things that Mitch Johnson did, one of his adjustments was we're gonna stay home. We're gonna stay home. Right. We're not gonna stay home. We're gonna show bodies, but we're not gonna commit to the Shay Gilders Alexander and. And allow him to pick us apart.

[A]

I was impressed with the spurs effort. They were flying in that film session tomorrow. They're going to be doing some clapping in there.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Because they were flying around and that's all you can ask as a coach. When a guy lollygags to a closeout, what are we doing right in the. In the conference finals?

[B]

There's no lack of effort.

[A]

You just cannot do certain things. The effort that they took on just digs alone, not giving up on plays.

[B]

Do you think just since you brought it up, do you think in a film session they would be happier like coaching staff would be happier with the spurs than the Cleveland Cav staff would feel.

[A]

Now wait a minute, Max. Now why would you want to.

[B]

Here's not even the thing. Ask him. See what I'm saying?

[A]

You see what I said? Let's just. Let's just have to deal with.

[B]

Let's just switch over series. Let's go. Let's get to the Eastern Conference Conference. Because the question is not did the Cavs quit? They obviously quit. The question is why?

[C]

Well, I can tell you why.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

I'm be honest with you.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

When they were up 22 with seven and a half minutes left at the end of game one, it was. Series was over then.

[B]

That's what I said at the time.

[C]

The series was over then.

[B]

First of all, before we even get to the way demoralized them, you had a couple of long series against a rested team. The rest of the team's going to be a little stale. You have a chance to steal one

[A]

on the road, the one to steal that.

[B]

And it went to. Not only did you lose, it went to overtime.

[A]

Supposed to get to overtime.

[B]

Right. 100%. But I'm saying like, so just from the physical standpoint, you are now really fatigued against a fresh team. But then the psychological point, that's what

[C]

I mean, between your years, you're not, you know that you are hooked. You can't win that series without winning one in Madison Square Garden.

[B]

And that was your shot.

[C]

And that was the one. We are literally sitting there in our living room watching the game and my wife turns to me and says, why do they keep allowing James Harden to switch onto Jalen Brunson easily? And I'm sitting there. I don't like. I tell you one of the things I don't like doing. I don't like talking about coaching.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I mean, because I feel like that's low hanging fruit.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I mean, it's what fans do after every game.

[B]

Coach has got a lot to consider.

[C]

Right, right. I get it. But in this particular case, and I love Kenny Atkinson. I do. But I am, we are sitting watching the game thinking like, okay, so there's not, you're not going to maintain the matchup, you know, and that's what San Antonio does a great job of doing. That's what Oklahoma City does a great job of doing. Like you said, they keep trying to bring up Jared McCain and Isaiah Joe and put them in the action. They may help, but they're getting back to their own.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oklahoma City and San Antonio do a great job of maintaining their matchup. And they just kept switching James Harden with five fouls, mind you, five fouls

[B]

on to Jalen Brunson once they lost that game. I said it at the time.

[A]

No, no, it's not.

[B]

Once they lost that game.

[C]

You ain't coming.

[B]

Wrap.

[C]

But it's so hard.

[A]

But let me ask you a question. I've been around this game a long time, 25 years to be exact. At the pro level, the coach is very important. But in some instances, you don't need to coach.

[C]

Agreed.

[A]

You don't need to coach to tell you to fight harder to deny the switch. You just don't. I'm just being honest. You don't. Because I've. Again, you're in the conference finals.

[B]

Yeah. Fight under the screen.

[A]

That's being seen that you haven't seen throughout your. However many years you've been Playing basketball, especially in the NBA. So at some point, to me, that has to be a internal adjustment as well. What do you think about that? So five guys on the floor saying.

[C]

Or an external conversation.

[A]

Or an external conversation. But at some point, the five guys on the floor has to notice that and say, you know what?

[B]

We got.

[A]

At least make it harder. Make them. Make them set the screen two, three times before they get to switch. Now it's seven seconds left on the shot clock, and he can't dance with the ball as much. Now, don't get me wrong, he made some tough shots, and nobody in the NBA outside of the great Tony Allens and guys like Castle now in this series can truly guard a guy one on one. Like, it's very difficult.

[B]

Not a guy like that.

[C]

It's also the mental piece for the other guy, too, though. Yeah.

[A]

You're on an island.

[C]

Yeah. But I'm talking about from Jalen Brunson's perspective.

[A]

Oh, 100%.

[C]

Because the other side is. Jalen Brunson is also getting the matchup that he wants. So there's a psychological piece that comes along with him.

[A]

Those are. People think he's dancing. No, those are called rhythm dribbles. He's getting a rhythm, and once he gets that, he. He gets two or three shots to go down. He may. He's a tough shot.

[B]

What about. What. What? Did you hear what he said?

[C]

Yes, he doubled down on it and tripled down.

[B]

He's. Well, he said they're up to one. Actually, analytically speaking, he said the analytics said they're up to one.

[C]

Did you hear what Josh Hart said about analytics?

[A]

Josh Hart.

[B]

Why would coach. Why would Kenny Atkinson.

[A]

Josh Hart. Why would he say that? But Josh Hart had the best explanation of analytics that I've ever heard since I ever heard the word analytics.

[C]

Did you hear what he said?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

He basically said, analytics is like lamp poles for the drunk person. They'll help you, but they won't get you home.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They'll hold you up.

[A]

They'll hold you up, but they won't get you home. And he's right.

[B]

They can walk away.

[A]

Because here's the thing about analytics. We talked about it. The reason why I don't like analytics. When Tyrese Maxey was coming out, I hate to tell you this. I begged the Pelicans guys. Pelicans was one of the first teams I allowed in the gym to see Tyrese Maxey. I'm telling them, look, they had the 13th pick. Oh, man. But he don't really shoot the three that. Well, I said, what tape are you watching? Because what type of threes is he shooting? Is it a. Is it a grenade, like, at the

[B]

bottom of his feet, right?

[A]

Like, is it. Is Cal screaming and yelling? Did he just take him out the game? And don't put him in the game for four minutes, then put him back in? Like, what type of threes you talking about? I just saw this guy make 25 threes in a row. You see the same thing I saw.

[B]

Every fan knows the analytics three that a guy's like a shot where the guy's supposed to hit that shot. He got the ball on, his steps in rhythm and shot where you're like.

[A]

I think that analytics does not tell what type of heart you have in key moments of the game to make a wide open shot. You think analytics, it's a tool.

[B]

I agree. This is why James Harden was the darling of the analytics community. Luka Doncic is now. I don't think that that style of play that Harden played and that Luka plays is conducive to winning championships. I agree with you.

[A]

You played against a lot of guards, by the way, you played against some of the best guards the league has ever seen. Ever seen. Where does Jalen Brunson and Shay rank against?

[B]

Hold on, hold on. We'll get to that right now. Let's do it.

[A]

Yes, let's do it.

[C]

The thing is, it's different because the guys that we are talking about, we're talking about the MJ's, the Kobe's, you know what I mean? The AIs. AI.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You know, like.

[A]

But you had guys, like, first of all, people, they always go to the top with these names.

[B]

No, no, forget about guards short. Guards short. Let's take.

[A]

Let's take small guards.

[B]

Let's say under. Under 62. 62 is already decent.

[C]

Tony Parker, that's a good one.

[A]

Great, right?

[C]

We played him.

[B]

Chris Paul, that's another great one.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Iverson.

[C]

Okay. That's what I said. AI.

[B]

Isaiah Thomas, Terrell Brandon.

[A]

He didn't play against the Isaiah Thomas. He wasn't yet.

[B]

Oh, who.

[A]

Who he played against Sorel Brandon.

[C]

Yeah, Terrell Brandon.

[A]

Where was he at?

[C]

Minnesota.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Terrell Brandon. I love Terrell Brandon. He was in Cleveland. I went to his.

[C]

Yeah, me too.

[A]

At Dupont.

[C]

Me too. Sam Cassell.

[A]

Tough Cassell.

[B]

Cassell was.

[C]

Some of these, like. That's the thing.

[A]

He ain't named Steve. Steve Francis.

[C]

Steve Francis.

[A]

But he's a little. He's six three.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So he don't care.

[C]

But the thing is these dudes. And this is why when you talk to. I guess, as my daughters would call us old heads, it's because I played against dudes.

[A]

They call y' all old heads. Your daughter does not call me one.

[C]

She would call me one.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

[C]

These dudes may. You know how hard it was to guard Sam Cassell in the mid range, right? You know how hard it was to guard Kobe Bryant in the mid range when he actually got to his spot and decided to elevate?

[A]

There's nothing you can do.

[B]

There's hope. He misses. Yes.

[C]

So this goes back to the Wemby conversation, right? This goes back when you have someone that there's literally nothing you can do, Right? If I'm sitting here, I have a picture of I'm guarding Kobe and I have my hand. I'm fully extended, defensively disciplined. So I'm not leaving my feet.

[B]

Kobe got you by how many inches to start with?

[C]

He's six. What, seven.

[B]

Six, six, six, five.

[C]

Six, seven. So about three inches. Yeah, but when my hand is fully extended and he's looking over my hand like I'm not even in the gym, what are my options?

[A]

Max, you have to ask him. You have to ask him a question.

[B]

Oh, well, there's a bunch of questions.

[A]

Go ahead.

[D]

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[B]

I want to start with the Knicks. I want to go back to the Knicks. We'll get to the guards in a second.

[A]

Okay, fine.

[B]

Is getting to the Finals enough for the Knicks right now or have the goalposts move? Goalposts move because they have right now.

[A]

They have to win.

[B]

Feeding teams into a wood chipper. They are destroying everybody.

[A]

The city of New York will not be satisfied just getting to the finals.

[B]

They would have been. They would have been earlier this season,

[C]

no question about it.

[B]

Even earlier in this playoffs, if they would have put up a tough fight and gone out in six games against the Western Conference, New York would have been like, it's okay. We're moving the right direction.

[A]

Not now.

[C]

Not now.

[B]

They got it.

[A]

Not the way they're winning.

[C]

Right.

[A]

If they went to game seven.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With the Hawks in game six. With the, with the Sixers or something like that. Different story.

[C]

You wait there when everybody. Yeah, you right now.

[B]

Running through them.

[C]

So when you look at the Western Conference and how well San Antonio's playing, it's. It's a bloodbath over here between San Antonio, Oklahoma City and then you look at the Easter Conference and the Knicks are simply running through everybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like they're cleaning them up.

[C]

The Gold Bulls has moved.

[B]

Okay, so here's the next question. Should the Knicks be favorites no matter who comes out of the West? Because I'll give you my answer.

[A]

The way they're playing. Yes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Should be favored to win the championship right now. And let me tell you why. Here's the graphic. Highest point differential in the. In the history of the playoffs through the first 13 games. I'm going to start reverse order. Okay. The sixth highest differential, Oklahoma City in 2025. That's last year. They won the championship plus 183. The fifth was the 1971 Bucks. That's Kareem Abdul Jabbar with Oscar Robertson. They won the championship plus 192. The fourth, the Kevin Durant warriors team in 17. They won the Finals, obviously, plus 225. Sorry. Anyway, I skipped two teams. The Bulls, plus 184. Michael Jordan won the Finals and the Lakers 87. That's Kareem Magic and Worthy, plus 193. Anyway, by far the biggest point differential is plus 234 for the Knicks this year. Every other team in the top six won the championship that year. And even if you. You might be thinking, well, that game against Atlanta, they won by a million points. Even if you took that game out, they'd still be top six.

[A]

It's the Knicks versus anybody. That's their mindset. We don't care who comes out.

[C]

I say yes, yes, yes, they should be. Because of how they're playing. Because of how, again, if Woodward said, if they go seven games here and, you know, seven games with the Hawks and it's above between him and Philadelphia, between them and Philly, and then now you get to this series with Cleveland and they're just going back and forth like, maybe not, but the fact that it's not winning, it's how they're winning.

[A]

It's how you're winning.

[C]

It's how you win. It's not losing, it's how you lose.

[B]

They're playing the best team basketball right now. Carl Anthony Towns is passing out of the post like he's Baby Jokic, right? Like he's like mx.

[C]

I tell you what people don't understand about the whole Karl Anthony town's name. People forget that Mike Brown was in Golden State for the longest time. They got a dude in Golden State named Draymond Green that they used as a hub, right? They have a guy in Golden State named Steph Curry that they did a great job of putting him off the ball and allowing him to move.

[B]

That's a great point.

[C]

And when you get to Sacramento, he's the head coach of Sacramento with de', Aaron, Fox and Sabonis, you know, so now it's like, okay, this is very well, offensive scheme. What he's done is he's moved that offensive scheme from Golden State, obviously different personnel to Sacramento, and now he's implemented it late. And we have watched that Knicks offense evolve.

[B]

Can we. Is it time to get, like, Mike Brown as a coach? I got to say something about that, too, because, like, think of the. I know Kerr won a bunch of championships, but Mark Jackson comes in there and he gets them to believe it's okay to shoot from that distance. It's okay. And he creates the foundation for what becomes a dynasty. But he didn't appear to be the coach to get him to the next level because when they brought Kerr in, the offense was much more efficient.

[C]

Okay, that happens.

[B]

Isn't Mike Brown kind of Steve Kerr for this team right now in the sense that Thibodeau came in and got them to be a respected powerhouse in the East. But as is typical with his teams, and I don't want to hear, well, Brunson is playing the same minutes. There's a certain amount of intensity that Tibbs puts in the regular season also

[C]

he's taking the ball out of his hands.

[B]

And in the regular season, the Knicks really good. They would hit a wall in the second round of the playoffs. Right. Mike Brown comes in and instead of going the trending the wrong way this time of year, they're the hottest team in basketball.

[A]

The best thing.

[B]

Doesn't he deserve some credit for that?

[A]

He does. No, he does. He deserves a lot of credit. But Mike Brown is one of the most detailed people you are going to find, especially on the defensive end. He don't care. You could take a shot, you can miss a shot, but what you cannot do is miss an assignment on the defensive end. He just. Because when you see Mike Brown prepare, I've been around. I was there at his dinner when he first got the job in Cleveland. Been around him a long time.

[B]

He suffers because he worked on that. Because anyone with LeBron back then, it's like, oh, that's because of LeBron. No, I'm just saying Mike Brown's reputation, based on what I'm seeing right now is not. He's a good coach, but he is not getting enough credit for what's happening with the Knicks right now.

[A]

Hadn't been to the playoffs since.

[B]

Mike Brown's reputation is not an elite coach. It's a good coach. But maybe that needs to change.

[C]

But what also people don't understand in Mike Brown is he was here, right. He was my PC coach, he started here. He was my player development coach here in San Antonio.

[B]

Is he underrated right now?

[A]

He's very underrated, yeah.

[C]

But I mean the thing is this is a results based league.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Everything is based on the moment. Right? Everything is based. Because I tell you what, you, if you go back to two months ago, you wouldn't call them underrated.

[A]

At that time they were struggling.

[C]

Right. You'll call them underrated now because of all the stats that.

[B]

Yes. But unlike the Thibodeau team who they'd be playing all these minutes and then they'd be burnt by the playoffs.

[A]

He Made a major adjustment. Play faster, right. And get the ball out of Brunson's hands. Playing through cat, right. People don't see it, but he gets cat going very early. Another genius thing he did. Oh, you want to file Mitchell Robinson. Great. File him now. We're going to put you in the bonus early.

[B]

That's so smart.

[A]

And then we're going to grind that round.

[B]

In other words, Atkinson's thinking we're going to put Mitch on the line and so. So go ahead. Mike Brown, he did this in game three.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Here's the baby and they got the little net there and he took the food. But here's why, like Chewbacca on Endor and he wound up in the net.

[A]

Here's why the Knicks mentally should be so Star wars reference, like should be so confident. Twice in the playoffs they came back from 27 down against the Hawks. Right. To win that game. Remember, wasn't that in Atlanta when they came back and they beat the Hawks? The Hawks was up. Was the Hawks up 26? I think they was up 27.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, and then, and then it come to come back from 22 to come down. Not only we've seen that happen with teams where they feel like no lead matters.

[B]

It's good.

[C]

Doesn't.

[B]

This is. What is the most gangster thing about that game. They're down 22 with seven and a half minutes left. They wound up winning in overtime by 11.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's a 33 point.

[C]

Once you got an overtime overtime, that's

[B]

like 12 minutes of game time. You a 33 point swing.

[A]

But you're so deflated. You gotta, you gotta have such a resilient mindset to burst through that.

[B]

Okay, so. So one of the things about like I read who wrote this book. I'm not. I shouldn't even say it because I won't give the author credit. It was really good. Like the captain's something or other code. Brent Barry gave it to me on a plane and I read it on the plane one day. And it's about how all these dynasties have a captain who's an extension of the coach on the floor. Bill Russell or Derek Jeter or Tom Brady or whoever it is. Right. Jalen Brunson is the floor general for the Knicks. The reason, the number one reason they feel, I think like they like no lead is insert no deficit is insurmountable for them is because they believe in their guy. I want to talk about Jalen Brunson for a second. If the Knicks win and we believe they should be favored and they win the whole thing. Is he the Goat Nick? Is he the Goat Nick? I mean, Walt Frazier. Okay, let's. Let me rephrase. Well, no, no. First, is he the Goat Nick? Because then we could talk about modern NBA like, 79, 80 on. Walt Frazier has two chips. Is it still Walt because he's got two, or is because Brunson will pass Patrick Ewing?

[A]

If you guess, rings don't matter in this culture. So it don't matter. Rings don't matter. So I would say. Yes.

[B]

Rings don't matter in what culture?

[A]

People don't count the rings.

[B]

What?

[A]

What? You don't.

[B]

What, Knicks fans? Because there aren't that many.

[A]

No, I'm just saying, like, Bill Russell has 11 rings. No one considers him to go.

[B]

They did for a while.

[A]

They don't do it right now. No one has 11 rings.

[B]

Yeah, but the league was very much, much, much smaller.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So what I'm saying is the league was much, much different. That's five.

[B]

So, okay, so are you. So in the modern era, at least, right. Maybe Brunson gets extra credit and is immediately the Goat Nick, if they win the championship, is he.

[A]

I. I would never disrespect Clyde Frazier.

[C]

I know that. That's. That's.

[A]

I would never disagree.

[B]

You know, we need to.

[A]

Do.

[B]

We need to ask Clyde. We can ask Clyde. Yeah, we could.

[A]

Here's what I'm saying.

[B]

We'll leave it up to Clyde.

[C]

That's what I was about to say.

[B]

I'm going to act like, by the way, Clyde went for, I want to say, 35, 15 and seven in game seven against Jerry Weston, Wilt Chamberlain to give the Knicks the championship.

[A]

So I'm going to put, put, put Clyde to the side.

[B]

Okay, let's put Clyde to the side. He passes Patrick. Right?

[A]

If Absolutely.

[B]

Patrick didn't get.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's at the top of the list.

[B]

Okay, that's the first one. How about this one? Would you rather have Brunson right now or Shea? Ooh, Brunson or Shea now, Shay is bigger.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I'm not my. He's a better defender. I know my answer. They're both extremely clutch.

[C]

I know my answer.

[A]

This is not it. This is not like a. It's not a. Would you rather have. This is.

[B]

Well, I'm.

[C]

He's making it a. Would you rather have. It's not a Would you rather have? But he is making it a. Would you rather have.

[A]

How about this? Okay, Take who you want.

[B]

Brunson.

[A]

Okay, I'll Take the other.

[C]

In today's NBA. So what you're telling me is I don't know anything else. I don't know how. Who else is on my roster.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. I have to take the taller, more versatile of the two.

[B]

Okay, so that's. That's Shay, who's also, by the way, not a he. Shea's a good defender, right? That's like one of the most underrated parts of his game.

[C]

No question about it.

[B]

How about for this Knicks team? Well, could you swap Brunson out? Who in the NBA could you swap Brunson out for? And think the Knicks are still as good as they are right now? Shay, one who's an NBA. Are you saying guards?

[A]

You say just. Just guards.

[B]

Well, would you take. Okay, how about this? Brunson or Luka? You're trying to win a championship. Brunson or Luka?

[C]

Okay, I can tell you who mines is. Go ahead and I'll tell you the reason why.

[B]

Go ahead.

[C]

I would say Brunson. And the reason I would say that is because I've seen Brunson play with and without the ball.

[B]

I agree.

[C]

I haven't seen Luka as talented as Luka is. And Luka is crazy talented. He can score from anywhere on the floor. Excellent passer. But I haven't seen him play where his usage is low. You know what I mean? The good thing about Jalen Brunson that we're seeing now is he's off the ball a lot. Right? You're using car. And the thing is, I don't blame Luka for that, though. Like, I wonder what it would look like if Luka was playing with LeBron

[B]

when LeBron was younger or Kyrie Irving.

[C]

Well, right now I could tell you

[A]

how it would look.

[B]

Or Jalen Brunson right now.

[A]

So this is Brunson play with both. We've seen. We've seen Luca play with another guard. I would say Brunson. If you're picking Brunson, it's because of the optionality that he gives.

[C]

For sure, 100% picking Brunson.

[B]

So, okay, so here are two. Here are some more. How many players? Well, first of all, how does Dallas let a guy like Brunson out?

[C]

The other conversation.

[B]

That's not how they let him out the door.

[C]

That's not fair.

[B]

Why not?

[C]

Because hindsight's always 20 20. Yeah. You can't tell me. You can't tell me. And I watched Jalen Brunson a million times in Dallas. That's like saying with James Harden, did You see the mvp, James Harden, when he was in Oklahoma City.

[B]

No, no, but I thought he's a good player. I'll tell you.

[C]

Wait, wait, you did, you did. But there's a difference between a really good player and an mvp.

[A]

Can I tell you what I'll say? Here's what I'll say to that. Because now I got to put my agent hat on or I put my GM hat on. The only thing I would say against what you guys are saying now is it don't matter. It's the asset the man was asking for four years.

[C]

Oh, no, no, I get that. No, no, you're 100% right.

[A]

You signed the four years.

[C]

80 for sure.

[A]

Because the other thing, you can't lose them for nothing, so it don't even matter.

[B]

But I also think there's guys like, I'll give you.

[C]

That's different. I, I, I thought we were just talking about, I thought we were just talking the physical, not, not being.

[A]

But he's saying how, oh, how they

[B]

let him out the door. Here's another example. It's actually a pretty close.

[A]

And James Harden is an example of why you don't. The same thing happened with James.

[B]

Well, they traded Harden.

[A]

No, not at first. It became a trade.

[B]

Oh, right, yeah.

[A]

Yes. Remember, Harden wanted $4 million more than

[B]

what OKC didn't want to pay tax.

[A]

I think right then that's when they came.

[B]

I want to give an example for Brunson that I think is a close parallel, actually. When Steve Nash was with Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas, I remember saying on around the Horn, when he was on Dallas still, I came out, said, I watched him one game and I said, I know there are better players than Steve Nash in the NBA, but when I watch him, it's hard for me to think of who they are. Right. And this is when he's still in Dallas. He had, they hadn't unlocked him to this.

[C]

He hasn't won.

[B]

But, but you could see certain guys now, Brunson, undersized. I get, I understand why you don't want to pay him. Because in, in the NBA nowadays, especially an undersized guard is a defensive liability. He can be exploited, the whole thing, but he's the kind of guy like now watching him on the Knicks more closely, if you have a guy like that on your team, it doesn't matter the numbers. He's putting up. A guy like that and he's putting up numbers, you don't let him out the door.

[C]

Agreed. But what helps him with the Knicks is The fact that you have Josh Hart, that you have OG Anunoby, that you have Mikhail Bridges, you know those guys that you have that they call wingstop, you have versatile guys that are excellent defenders. The fact that you have a Mitchell Robinson, you know what I mean? Like again, it's, these conversations are difficult to have because you don't know what the rest of the roster looks like.

[A]

That's, that's, that's fair. But you did know that you were just in the conference finals.

[C]

Oh for.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what you knew.

[B]

And they did get to the finals without him as people, you know. But.

[A]

Yeah, but, but, but the Dallas Mavericks like that.

[C]

Yeah, agreed.

[A]

You have to. So have to.

[B]

So here's the next one I have for you guys. Okay? And then I got two more on Brunson. How many players in the NBA, you have a team you don't like your start, Would you take over Brunson? How many players in the NBA would you take?

[A]

Not much. Not, not, not, not.

[B]

Because by the way, you know how I always say, you know how I always say, why do we, I mean, if you say why do we give out awards after the regular season, right?

[C]

Because the real said this forever, right? Max, I have said this forever because

[B]

in a league where, where 2/3 of the teams, 2/3 of the teams are still playing after the season's over, if you're one of the best players in the league, you're not going to be out of the play in at least, right? The highest leverage games, and there are many of them are in the playoffs. If you ask me, the regular season. Who's better? Cade Cunningham.

[C]

Who?

[B]

I love Cade Cunningham is an old school. He's going to. If he stays healthy, he's in the hall of Fame one day. I love Cade Cunningham. Regular season Cade or Brunson? Ooh, that's close. I'll probably take Cade playoffs, which is the real season. Brunson. I'll take Brunson over Cade.

[C]

And this is true.

[B]

Which just means I'll take Brunson over Cade.

[C]

And I get it. But this is a tough conversation again because roster construction matters.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Okay. You don't, you don't have anything else.

[A]

They don't have roster. You don't have anything else in the barbershop.

[C]

Yeah, no question. But like when we talk about Cade or Brunson, it's not as simple as saying Cade or Brunson because you know what? Brunson has. Brunson has a lot of what Cade doesn't.

[B]

Okay, we're going to do expansion. We have an expansion draft. And you know how they do the expansion draft. You got to leave players unprotected. Both these guys, for whatever reason, are left unprotected. You're an expansion team. Kate or Brunson.

[C]

I'm taking Cade younger because he's younger and taller. Bigger. Yeah, I'm taking younger and he's bigger.

[B]

I got to say, guys, based on what I'm seeing from Brunson in terms of the shooting, the clutch ability, everything about.

[C]

But. But this, we ain't seen nothing different from Brunson than this year than we saw last year.

[B]

Let me. Let me say what I mean, because you. You agreed with the postseason thing. I. I said for several years in a row, going back three or four years, when it comes to the playoffs, Jimmy Butler's a top five player in the NBA, 100%. That's the same thing as saying you don't need to say when it comes to the playoffs. That means that Jimmy Butler's a top five player in the NBA. Yes, it does.

[A]

No, what we're talking about is what gets teams in trouble. Because the obvious answer is K. When you ask this question based upon everything you look for in a basketball player, but that. The obvious isn't always the right answer. It don't make it right.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

But it's the obvious answer. But it does not make it right.

[C]

Who would you take?

[A]

No, we both said Kate.

[B]

Only reason I would take Kate is younger. So the younger, taller player. I agree. So when I say expansion draft, let's just say we're trying to win as we're trying to do as well in the playoffs as we can this year, for sure.

[A]

Can I.

[B]

You want Brunson or Cade?

[A]

But you're. But you said expansion draft, which means

[B]

because I messed up. Forget the expansion draft. It ruled.

[A]

I agree with AD what he's saying is, if you telling me that I get to take Brunson and then I get to build my team, I want it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Then give me Brunson.

[C]

Give me Brunson.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you get to build the team how you want it. Whatever answer gets me the answer I'm looking for, then give me Brunson. Okay. So. So who else would you take over Brunson? If that's the idea. How many players in the league you taking over Brunson? I mean, Wemby.

[C]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Are you taking Jokic over Brunson?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Can I say something about Jokic, though? You asked Me a question. Certain players need to win. Certain players love to play. And to me, if you have both, like, the ultimate example of that is Magic Johnson needed to win as much as anyone ever loved to play as much as anyone ever. You can't get a higher level than that. I'm not saying he's the greatest of all time.

[C]

I'm trying to see what you're getting at here with Jokic.

[B]

So Jokic, to me, he's a basketball genius. It doesn't seem to me that he either loves to play or needs to win. To. To me, Brunson seems like he really needs to win.

[C]

Okay, how do you.

[A]

He also loves to play, and he loves to play.

[C]

How do you define love to play in this.

[B]

When you ask. When you ask Jokic, what. What do you play? He. He can't wait to go ride his horse. Like, he's good.

[C]

So. So have their interest.

[B]

If you have. If you talk to kd, how many times after, especially earlier in his career, would KD say stuff like, the sun's still going to come up tomorrow. Kd, you know, loves to play. Does he need to win? Like, here's a guy who needed to win. Kobe Bryant, he needed to win.

[A]

But. But those. He needed to, but for different reasons, I don't think. I'm not sure. There's. Wemby may be the first. Wemby may be the first international player that we feel like needs to win.

[B]

I tell you what, he's very American that way.

[C]

Wemby is going to be the first international player to be the face of the league.

[A]

This is what I'm saying.

[B]

No doubt. And he's going to be the greatest ever if he stays healthy.

[A]

But that's why I said he's going to be the first international player that needs to win, because everyone's going to be anointing him to be the face of the league. When you are on that path, to be the face of the league, you need to win.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You guys didn't feel like Giannis plays like he needed to win.

[B]

Not this year.

[C]

No, no, no, not this year because he was in and out. But think about Giannis two years ago or three years ago when he led Milwaukee. See, this is why he played like

[A]

he wanted to win more than anybody else.

[C]

He needed to. This is why some of these conversations, they become like prisoner in the moment conversations, because we can have a conversation at a certain time, and a year later, we're going to be a different conversation.

[A]

I give you that with Giannis, for sure. Needed, wanted and loved to play.

[B]

And then maybe got a little full when he did.

[C]

You're saying no because I don't think he got full. I think again, you can only Bingo team.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[C]

Roster construction.

[B]

Jalen, Brunson. I want to get back to Brunson. How many guys are you taking? You can build your team ever you want over Brunson, Wemby, you both say Jokic. I'm not so sure I'm taking Jokic over Brunson, to tell you the truth. Okay, I know how crazy that sounds.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So like, I saw Jokic, his team. He's down two possessions. He has enough on his team. Yeah, they had a good defender on Jamal Murray. It was throwing him off for sure, but he had.

[A]

I said it's a win.

[B]

He's down two position possessions with. With two minutes to go. You write your own script. Go win the game. Like, you know, that's what all time

[A]

rates are for it to be. Not many. It's. It's very few for different reasons. It's very few guys who.

[B]

You take over Brunson. This is what I'm saying.

[A]

Very few.

[B]

How many guys?

[A]

At least for me, just because Wemby.

[B]

Yes, yes, obviously, Wemby.

[A]

The thing I love about Brunson is what he possesses on a. And I've seen him play game five. Like, I see him play game 85 in game five. He's the same way he's in. In game 85. Not. We just heard Jeff Teague say tonight, after his third year, he stopped caring about wins or losses, if he won a game or not.

[B]

One thing about Teague is he'll keep it a buck about himself and everybody else.

[A]

But think about that. If Jeff Teague said that, how many other people think. What did I tell you? The difference between most guys who takes

[B]

their homework home Care.

[A]

You need care Bears in your locker room.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You do.

[B]

That's what sets up a winning slogan, by the way.

[A]

You do.

[C]

That's what said Oklahoma City.

[A]

You need it. Not. Not the. Not the softness.

[B]

Athletic enough.

[A]

Fair. But you need people that care. Yeah, you do.

[C]

You ever. You ever did. You ever did like in high school, in college, and you did like a group project.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And you do a group project and it's always one dude or two dudes in the group project that don't care.

[B]

Yeah. And care less submarine the whole thing.

[C]

Right. And it's like, do my work for me. And then you have teams that when you get to this time of the year, your preparation Is everything this time of the year. So during the regular season, you know what they give you for your scouting report? They give you a sheet. They give you a sheet. Okay. This is what the guy does.

[A]

Is what.

[C]

When you get to the postseason, you get a binder.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You get a binder that has everything in it.

[A]

And you have to make the decision. What am I doing after the game tonight?

[C]

Right. How much do I care about winning treatment?

[B]

Brunson, you're taking Wemby. Who are you?

[C]

I can tell you another guy.

[B]

Are you. You're not taking. I can tell you another guy I

[C]

put in that category.

[A]

Who?

[C]

Anthony Edwards.

[B]

I was gonna say aunt and Edwards.

[C]

His mentality. His mentality is different.

[A]

Okay. If you get the right roster, no question.

[B]

Wemby and Edwards are.

[A]

Well, not even the right roster, because he has a really good roster.

[B]

But taking Jalen Brown. Are you taking Jalen Brown, who was in the MVP conversation all year? I'm not over. Over Jalen Brunson. Nope. I am absolutely not. And he was in the mvp. MVP conversation all year and should have

[A]

been first team all NBA. We won't talk about that.

[B]

Yeah, we got to get into that.

[A]

I'm just saying.

[B]

But, yeah, so. So. So Wemby and.

[A]

And who the.

[B]

Tatum are you taking? Tatum, Are you taking Luca? I'm not taking Luca. I'm not taking Jalen Brown. I'm not taking. I mean, y. Okay, I say I'm not taking Jokic, but if I was actually gm, there's no way you can't take Jokic. He's. He's like an offensive. From.

[A]

Very common sense. Basketball thinking from.

[B]

Yeah, I'm prisoner of them all. Yeah. But I didn't like what I saw from Jokic in these playoffs. I gotta be honest.

[C]

And that's fair.

[A]

That's fair.

[C]

That's fair.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He can have off playoffs, max. We can be sitting in these Same exact seats 365 days from now, and you can have a completely different thought.

[B]

Giannis or Brunson,

[C]

if I don't know anything else.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. You can build your team however you want.

[A]

Yes. If you don't know anything else, you're going to say Giannis.

[B]

Okay, but, but, but no, you're actually a gm. Who you making the move for now?

[A]

Wait a minute.

[B]

You're making the move for.

[A]

Yeah, it's gonna be. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. So that's four guys.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How many more guys there are? Two or three more.

[A]

It's not. I keep telling you, it's not many. So we can move on.

[B]

All right, I thought we could do. I thought we could do names. I thought we could do names. All right, I think.

[A]

Can we get. Can we get.

[B]

Hey, the all NBA teams came out today.

[A]

Yes, they did.

[B]

All right, so. So the first team all NBA is Cade Luka Shay, Jokic Wemby.

[A]

Yeah. Jaylen Brown should be on the first team.

[C]

All fair.

[B]

Jaylen Brown should be.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

I agree.

[B]

How about Jalen Brunson?

[A]

Him too.

[B]

Over Cade.

[C]

Where you from, Max?

[A]

I'm not saying he from New York.

[C]

Where you from?

[A]

Yeah, I'm not saying over anybody. I'm saying Jay. Jaylen Brown should definitely be on the all first team, all NBA. Now from there you can talk about.

[B]

I totally disagree that Jaylen Brown should be first. I don't know how.

[A]

Max. Nobody.

[B]

Because I know it's a regular season award. I can't do it that way.

[A]

No, but that's not the rule.

[C]

The biggest surprise for me is Jalen Duran actually made 13.

[B]

See again, if the playoffs counted, he wouldn't have.

[C]

I agree.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Think about what I just said. If the playoffs counted. If the most important games didn't count for zero.

[A]

Here's my argument for Jaylen Brown. Nobody, not in this room, not in the next room, not in El Paso or Austin thought that the Boston Celtics would have the type of season they had. We thought we would second in the year and the Boston Celtics would be a lottery team because they lost Jayson Tatum. And he held it down. Not only did he hold it down, they were what, second in the.

[B]

You want to just consider regular season, which is absurd.

[A]

I'm considering what the rules qualify for.

[B]

So second team is Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Donovan Mitchell. We good with that? Or you want to hear third team?

[C]

Go ahead, give me third team.

[B]

Maxi, Jamal Murray, Jalen Johnson, Chet and Jalen Duran.

[C]

Well, see, the issue that you run into is obviously the 65 game threshold.

[B]

Right. If you could take that away, you know what the fourth team would be?

[A]

We have our fourth team. No, no, no. We got to set this up properly.

[B]

Okay, go ahead.

[A]

There's a fourth all NBA team now.

[B]

Fourth all NBA team without. We're just trying to make the best team without regard to how many games they missed. I think this team.

[A]

Wait, are you giving our list because he wasn't in the conversation.

[B]

Make your list. You want to hear.

[C]

I can't just write on the top, right?

[A]

Do you agree with our list?

[B]

Okay, how about that, Steph? At the 1 Ant at the 2, LeBron at the 3, Giannis at the 4, Bam at the 5.

[C]

That's fair.

[B]

I think that's actually better players than on the second team.

[C]

But.

[B]

But it's not about better players.

[C]

Who the better player is.

[A]

Okay. Not about better.

[C]

Not about better players.

[B]

Both of you with your, with your thoughts about rules and stuff. Yeah, never mind that.

[A]

Well, well, the real question is, is 65 games, should it be lowered? That's the real question.

[C]

Lower to what?

[B]

60 or 62?

[A]

Keep it at 65.

[B]

Three quarters of the season. Yes, three quarters of the season.

[C]

Meaning what?

[B]

That's enough. 60, 62 games, you know what's going

[C]

to happen and then five years from now they're going to say that's too many.

[B]

Like the thing is guy will miss a season, make all NBA.

[A]

They excluded, they excluded Luca for, for the two games he missed.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They excluded K because they said it was a non basketball injury. They did not exclude Anthony Edwards.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Which.

[C]

It's different.

[A]

It's different.

[B]

Think they should have excluded Ant.

[A]

I need to go back and look at.

[C]

That's the reason.

[A]

Rationale as to why I'm not. I'm not.

[C]

So you really think the game, you, you really think that they should take it down.

[A]

But this is.

[B]

I don't, I honestly don't like the rule at all. I love the rule. I think you got to use judgment in these things. And sometimes like, you know, I think about you. You do want the holding players out of games to calm down. You want load management to calm down. You do. You, you do want that. I don't like when they try to litigate that through the rules.

[C]

But the thing is, we also have to understand, max, why the 65 game rule was put in in the first place.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You know what I mean? There was a reason it was put in in the first place.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

If this wasn't an issue, getting guys to show up and be available was an issue. The 65 game threshold would have never been put on the table.

[A]

But it started with a coach's decision.

[B]

It started, started actually with the Spurs. They weren't traveling guys to some games.

[A]

Yes, but that was a genius by them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The low management aspect of it is necessary when you talk about managing the workload of the entire season to make sure the body's as fresh as they can possibly be for the playoffs. Like anything else in life, people abuse it and that's why we're here.

[B]

But it's much like what we're saying about incentivizing Behavior with flopping. Right. If everyone says the only thing that matters is a championship, forget about everything else. And you want your guys healthy and you just want to position yourself for the playoffs, which is all the NBA regular season is. As you've said, it's positioning yourself for the. Making sure you have the best shot in the playoffs. That's where the incentive is. That's why guys, that's why they're load managed.

[A]

But before we get to emails, I'll say this. The, the, the strategy in the strategy of load managing has to come with an understanding of the business around load managing. So therefore you have a nationally televised game and your star is not playing because you decide to load manage, that's going to be an eyesore. At some point, somebody's going to raise a red flag and this is what happened. But this is the first year Also, Max, since 2004 that LeBron has not been on all NBA team since 2004. That is the last year.

[B]

And he only missed it because of games played. Yes. How many games did LeBron play?

[A]

60.

[B]

That's three quarters of the season, give or take.

[A]

But they should have gave him a pass for age. They should have gave him a pass for.

[C]

See, when you get to a certain point, I don't think low management should matter anymore.

[B]

Yeah, it's like dog years. He's like 120.

[C]

Yeah. When you, when you're that age, like,

[A]

they'll say I'm biased, which I am. But I'm not. That's, that's, that's.

[B]

You think Kevin Durant was better this year than LeBron James? I don't. And I saw them. And by the way, more games.

[C]

He has that more responsibility too.

[B]

Really? Because I saw them in the. Within the games that counted the most when they're playing each other. LeBron elevated his team that didn't have anything on it past KD's team that actually had more talent.

[A]

15 and 4. He had a. I mean, LeBron had a great, great year. He just didn't play enough games and. But he wasn't even focused on it. He wanted to be fresh. He didn't start the season.

[B]

I just don't think this list represents who actually was first, third and second.

[C]

I bet you you can go back and look at all of the lists for the last 50 for sure you can't.

[B]

And about those lessons I'm talking about.

[C]

I know, but that's what I'm saying. But this list is no different than any.

[A]

Aaron was left off a list two years ago when he won.

[C]

When he won cross player of the year.

[B]

We don't have to follow their rules.

[A]

We understand that.

[C]

Why?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Just because they messed something up two years ago we got to keep messing.

[A]

But that's why we just made a fourth All NBA team. But there was two young men born very mature that's currently in the NBA. Now the last time LeBron was not on a All NBA team and Jalen Durant is one of them. But let's get some emails Max because guess what?

[C]

What?

[B]

What?

[A]

You can't see this but AD has a family. Antonio has a family. They've been here.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Patiently.

[B]

Here are the emails I got finished talking about. I got bogged down a little bit. And who Jalen Brunson's better.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Hey Max and Rich, I gotta ask where Max's optimism for the Giants is coming from. Dart introduced Trump at a rally that has already not seemed to go over well with his teammates. Neighbors is already hurt. Harbaugh is definitely an upgrade but also would have lost his Ravens job a long time ago. It if not for Lamar Jackson would love someone in this division to seriously challenge the Eagles. Colton, he said a lot here. I would say last week has been tough as a Giants fan. For me when they extended Joe Shane it was like ugh, what are they doing? Even the selection of Jackson Dart that was dable. I mean there's video of it because it was hard knocks like they were following him around and Joe Shane was kind of like if you're convicted on this guy meaning kind of setting him off in case it doesn't work. This wasn't me. I didn't love that. Neighbors is still hurt and the signs aren't great that he'll be back right away and back to his full self. And Darts introducing Trump. Look, Carter then piped up about it and made it even worse. But I want people to understand something. It is not a what about situation as it relates to Trump. It's not as though Jackson Dart showed up at a Ronald Reagan or George H.W. bush or George W. Bush who by the way was considered a very bad president but still within the normal realm of the political experience in terms of Americans experience of their president. This is not the same thing with Trump. It's not. Well what about Biden? No, it's not the same thing and I don't need to go into why, but it's really not the same thing. It's a much more kind of controversial position for him to take and a much kind of louder political Statement as a result of who he was introducing. And that set off a not great situation with the Giants. And then Abdul Carter responded publicly. It made it even worse. So, you know, that's where they are. I'm not crazy about it. What can I tell you? Hey, fellas. Love the show. Just one question for you. Why do people dislike Reggie Miller on the broadcast? I actually think he's pretty good. Who are your favorite NBA broadcast teams? Personally, I think Mike Breen with RJ and Legler the most. Mike Breen.

[A]

Well, now, wait a minute. First of all, who's dissing Reggie Miller? That sounds.

[C]

It's social media. Yeah.

[A]

That sounds. That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. Just. I mean, whatever. Anyway, my favorite.

[B]

But I didn't even know there was beef with Reggie Miller.

[A]

There is no. You can. It's impossible. Reggie, he's a nutrition.

[B]

Obviously, if he's bringing it up, he is experiencing. He is experiencing.

[C]

Someone's social media is. You know, something will take off on. One person says something on social media, it'll take off and your algorithm can

[B]

start spitting stuff out at you that doesn't reflect what's really happening.

[A]

Something in the NBA.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's Reggie Miller in real time. No, but just as a broadcaster, what would the beef be? I don't even know. I'm not even aware what the criticism is.

[A]

Hopefully it's Wagu.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Well, here's the thing.

[B]

Who's your favorite broadcast teams?

[A]

Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson. It's pretty good that that duo was. It was just. It's just hard to beat that duo. Of course, now, if you want to go back a little bit further, I was a Marv Albert guy. Marv Albert was great. Right. I forget who he was paired with. Was it Doug Collins?

[B]

Marv Albert? No, it was Fratello. Mike Fratello. Right. The czar of the Telestrator. And.

[A]

And you know what? Doris, Jeff and Mark. That's my three.

[C]

I don't have a particular. I did. There are certain guys I like, for one, like I love Jamal Crawford and.

[A]

Are you talking about the new king?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And in general, maybe it's because he's fresh off the court. So what he brings to a broadcast is a lot of NBA current terminology.

[A]

Yes. And.

[C]

Right. The attention is detailed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He can describe what just happened in the play for the viewer that don't know what exactly took place in totality. So he does do it. He does a good job of elaborating, teaching.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And certain things. Like he also coached on the broadcast. Right. So it helps certain things he'll say on the broadcast. I've heard in the locker room, you know, the other day, watching the spurs games. He's talking about, you remember the play in game two was. Or whatever, when Shay comes over the top and lays it in Will when he stayed home.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It's an Iverson cut.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[C]

That's called an Iverson cut. He also talks about the ability of certain guards to play off one foot as opposed to two feet. You know what I mean? So just his attention to detail when talking about things that we have talked about, not me and him, but that you've heard in NBA locker rooms and NBA dialect. I love that.

[A]

That's him finding a white space in broadcasting and bringing it to the forefront.

[B]

Yeah, I love. My favorite broadcaster ever was Marv Albert. Cause he was hilarious. Like, sarcastic, dry. Always snapping on whoever he was working with. It was just funny.

[A]

He was great.

[B]

And Jeff Van Gundy's like that now. It's not quite like, you know, he has a different job than Marv, but it's the same kind of.

[A]

Well, in Cleveland, there used to be a guy named Joe Tate who was amazing. Joe Tate called my game when I was in the sixth grade.

[B]

But.

[A]

No, he did. No, he did. I got the tape. I'll send it to you. But nevertheless, I had to get shot. Joe Tate was great. I mean, he just. He was one of them legends.

[C]

And nowadays, I will say this because I'm a color analyst for the New Orleans Pelicans.

[A]

Yeah, I listen to you all the time.

[C]

There is no if you. If you say something good about somebody. Being an analyst is like being official.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You know what I'm saying? Like, somebody gonna love you and somebody gonna hate you.

[A]

I laugh at Antonio so much. You know why I laugh at you? I laugh at you a lot during the games. Cause you be so mad when someone does something stupid, he cannot control himself.

[C]

Listen.

[B]

Wait, I've something. This. What did I hear? What? I guess I was watching. I guess I was watching it. What? What?

[A]

How do you compose yourself? No, seriously, because, you know, I watch a lot of Pelicans games.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

How do you compose yourself? Like, seriously, I can sense when you. Like now. Now, come on, man, because I'm gonna

[C]

tell you how my thought process, when I'm doing my job, whether it's with them or. Or even on Sirius xm, I ain't gonna say nothing about somebody that I wouldn't mind being said about me. I ain't gonna do that. Like, I understand we live in such a hot take culture where it's like, you could say something and it'll take off and it'll go viral.

[A]

Like, that's not upset at me for this.

[C]

That's not me.

[A]

I'm like. I'm the same way. Not really upset, but you know what I'm saying?

[B]

That you don't wanna say something.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

My thing is, like, if somebody does something, there's a way to articulate something without offending them. I feel like it's my job to call out the obvious.

[B]

Right.

[C]

That's my pet peeve, what you talked about. That's my pet peeve. Like, no basketball iq.

[A]

Yeah, the basketball IQ you go crazy about. But what I'm saying is, when I'm on the show, obviously, I can say something a certain way differently than what I would say it if me and Max are just riding the car.

[B]

Yeah, but. But the thing about that is, as a broadcaster is that, like, one of the reasons Charles Barkley is, like, who's bigger in the space? Calling.

[A]

No, I love Trump.

[B]

Right. Or in a studio. Because Barkley talks like he's behind close.

[A]

Of course. That's his thing.

[C]

Everybody can't get away with that.

[B]

Yeah, Right. But the reason he gets away with it is because he does it. But that's how he does it.

[A]

You're the same way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People love you because of your. It's just brash. You just say you. You. You say it. You say it in a. In a. In a different way than Charles. But y' all is the same frequency.

[B]

Yeah. And the thing is, I have a lot of nerve because I'm not a hall of fame play. Like, what did I ever do?

[A]

Well, you don't care.

[B]

I don't. Right.

[A]

But. So I think. You think.

[B]

But with Barkley, I guess you're right. If you've done something. If you were. What's. Where did you rank 6 man of the year? What? You were 4th or 5th? 6th man of the year. You've done enough in your career where you're allowed to say stuff.

[C]

No, I don't.

[A]

That's not his personality. That's not who he is. Okay, Max, let's get some emails.

[B]

Those were the emails.

[A]

That's it.

[C]

I think that's it.

[A]

I think we did a voicemail.

[B]

We can't. I can't understand what they're saying.

[A]

Okay, done. Listen, this was great.

[B]

Did I linger too long on Brunson?

[C]

I'm not done.

[B]

I have more names.

[A]

No, no, you didn't. Linger too long on Brunson. I just don't want to. I just don't want to wear out my welcome. We're in the Spurs.

[B]

Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson?

[A]

Jalen Brunson.

[B]

Agree. Who else? Go through the whole.

[C]

Hey, I'm gonna go on. I'm gonna speak for both of us here, if you don't mind. We like Jalen Brunson, too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. We like Jalen Brunson.

[C]

We like Jalen Brunson a lot.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

We like Jalen Brunson and it's not a Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson. I just look at Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Brunson as two totally different players. Those are two different players.

[B]

Who's better than those two? Include totally different players.

[A]

This is what I'm saying. I'm starting my team with Jalen Brunson. How about that?

[C]

Good.

[B]

You too.

[C]

I'm. There's not a player in the league. I'm taking over Jalen Brunson.

[B]

Now we can show. Now, I wasn't going to end the show.

[C]

That's the only way the show was going to end.

[A]

That's how you end this show.

[C]

Can I say one more thing?

[B]

You say whatever you want.

[C]

I'm lying. I would take Wemby way ahead of Jalen Brunson. Sorry.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Of so would he.

[B]

But Wemby doesn't count. Wemby. They need a separate. Like, from now on, forget about MVPs, defensive player of the year, all that stuff.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Separate category.

[A]

They're going to give Wimby.

[C]

He's going to be the first billion dollar contract.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

A year. It has to be max plus plus plus. I don't know what they could do.

[B]

He realized if they get this done this year. He's 22 and he got his first one and he's in the spurs organization. And Harper and Castle don't even know what they're doing yet. They're babies. And they're going to think about when

[A]

you think about when they have to actually start thinking about the salary cap. It's like two years from now. That's a great spot to be in

[B]

if he stays healthy. Just knock wood.

[C]

And I know we gotta go. I'm gonna tell you my other thing that I wish the NBA would do.

[B]

Go ahead.

[C]

Outside of the officials, if you do everything the right way, all that money shouldn't go toward the cap.

[B]

All the. All which money?

[A]

All.

[C]

Like. So if I draft well.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And develop well, and then I have to pay Guy.

[A]

Yeah. Teams should be rewarded for doing things the right way.

[B]

But how do you. How do you.

[C]

Like how you can say, like, let's. Let's just say for. Let's say Oklahoma City.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Right. Shaker. Del and were different because they drafted him.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But outside of that, you drafted Lou Dort, you drafted Chad Holmgren, you drafted J Dub, you drafted Case and Wallace.

[B]

So you don't pay the tax on them, right?

[A]

No. You should have salary escrow. So therefore, every year there's a salary escrow.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you're able to have a little overflow.

[C]

So with all that. Because realistically, there's no way, if you do everything the right way with the aprons that teams are going to be able to stay together.

[A]

No, you can't.

[C]

It's impossible.

[A]

If you got a salary escrow, instead of me having to pay a tax, I should be able to pull from my escrow.

[B]

Hmm.

[C]

Just a thought.

[B]

I think you're right about that. I think you're right.

[A]

Or else he's right. I cannot be nowhere else in the world. Definitely not. Well, nowhere else in the world are you punished pretty much.

[B]

For success.

[A]

Yeah, for being successful.

[B]

Well, the NFL is kind of like that, too. As soon as a team wins the super bowl, you got to break it up because guys are going to get money other times, and that's what.

[C]

When's the last time a team. When's the last time a team went back to back?

[B]

Yeah, in a minute.

[A]

It's been since the 1718s.

[C]

Golden State, right?

[A]

Warriors. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Since it. Since all this.

[B]

Would have been back to back to back if not for an injury.

[A]

Since 2020, there hasn't been.

[B]

But I think the league wants that. They want it passed around, you know?

[C]

League is better with a villain, by the way.

[B]

Ain't going to matter. Ain't going to matter. Pretty soon this might be the last year if the spurs don't win it this year and this dude stays healthy. Knock wood. I got to get a place near the spurs club. Looking for real estate in San Antonio.

[C]

You can buy my. You can buy our house.

[A]

It's beautiful. Real estate in San Antonio.

[B]

All right. Antonio. I know your family's like, okay, we already said goodbye.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now what are they still doing there?

[C]

Let's go.

[B]

Good night.

[A]

Appreciate you.

[B]

Game over. The Max Kellerman game [e-mail]. yeah.

[A]

This is great, Max.

[B]

Or you'll see us.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Real basketball conversation.

[B]

Show's over.

[A]

Go home.

[B]

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