Spurs Win the West, and Revisiting the 2016 NBA Finals

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul — Spurs Win the West, and Revisiting the 2016 NBA Finals"

Host: The Ringer
Release Date: June 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Max Kellerman and Rich Paul navigating two central themes:

• A deep-dive debrief on the Spurs’ dramatic victory in the Western Conference Finals, led by the transcendent Victor Wembanyama (Wemby), and what it signals for the upcoming NBA Finals.
• A rich, inside-the-ropes retelling of the legendary 2016 NBA Finals—LeBron James’ crowning achievement in Cleveland—as Paul and Kellerman revisit the pivotal games, critical moments, and the legacy stakes involved.

As always, their banter moves effortlessly between big-picture analysis, locker-room anecdotes, and cultural commentary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Modern Discourse & Social Media (01:12–04:47)

• Social Media Era, Public Perception & Jerseys:
  Both hosts reflect on how even symbolic gestures are taken out of context today. Rich debates the optics of wearing his Cavs jersey (“Can we tell the real story?” – 02:58). Social media’s “clip out of context” culture makes it nearly impossible to say anything without backlash.
• On Help & Winning in the NBA:
  “You cannot win without… help. Anybody. Quarterback, football player, basketball player, hockey player.” – Rich Paul (04:47).
  They dismiss the myth that great players (e.g., Jordan) win solo.

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2. Spurs’ Triumph in the West (08:15–26:24)

• Predicting the Spurs:
  “I like the Spurs to get out of the West… because they have the best player in the world.” – Max Kellerman (08:53)
• Wemby vs. Chet Holmgren:
  • Kellerman highlights Wemby's psychological dominance: “He wanted to humiliate him… you got no wins when I’m on the floor.” (15:10).
  • Suggests that Wemby versus Chet is a generational rivalry, but Wemby has already staked claim to mental and on-court superiority.
• De’Aaron Fox’s Impact:
  “The Spurs don’t win that series without De’Aaron Fox… the turnovers were impossible when he wasn’t playing.” – Max (09:20)
  • Rich adds: Fox accepted a No. 2 role, praises his low-maintenance locker room presence from firsthand conversation with Keldon Johnson (10:23).
• Role Players & Culture:
  Praise for Spurs’ pro mentality—Luke Kornet’s crucial late-game block stands out (12:13).
  Rich: “That’s why you have to have pros on your team.”
• Team Identity:
  Spurs, Knicks, Thunder—three remaining teams “look like a team, top to bottom” (13:30).
• Coaching Insight:
  Discussion of coach–player advantage (player usually knows more, since coaches can’t play in-game – 11:24).

Notable Quotes

• On Wemby's edge:
  “He’s countering what’s happening to the Spurs… he wanted to let this dude Chet know at every moment, I own him.” – Max (15:10)
• On Spurs’ youth:
  “Castle and Harper remind me of puppies… when they become full-grown dogs, that’s when it’s good.” – Max (19:32)
• On the White Space in Training:
  “If you want to become a trainer… focus on teaching defense. That’s a white space in the training business.” – Rich (20:19)

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3. The NBA’s Arms Race & Team-Building (21:27–26:08)

• Thunder/Giannis Rumors:
  Max shares a buzz—OKC reportedly eyeing Giannis to counter Wemby, as Chet may not be enough (21:27).
  Rich is skeptical, focusing on cap gymnastics and the value of stockpiling and “hitting” draft picks (23:12).
• Draft Hits and Team Construction:
  “The Spurs Hit on Castle, they hit on Harper, they hit on Wemby, they hit on Carter Bryant…” – Rich (24:43)
• Finals Preview Tease:
  Knicks are “2 to 1 dogs,” which both think is overstated (24:47–25:55).
  Max says, “If Mike Brown wins the championship with the Knicks… never pay for a meal again in New York.” (26:08)

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4. 2016 NBA Finals Retrospective (35:25–87:19)

a. LeBron’s Legacy: The Decision to Return to Cleveland

• Dwyane Wade’s Support:
  D-Wade backed LeBron’s move “for his legacy.” Rich: “The entire thing about going back to Cleveland was about legacy… nothing else to be done if he wins one.” (36:46, 40:15)
• Inside Stories:
  Rich details the deliberation—the “grandmother’s club” image and LeBron’s people’s champ status. (43:05)
  • Max: “LeBron stepped up at every important moment in our country… nearly always right.” (41:12)

b. The Games Themselves

• 2015 Finals Context:
  “LeBron’s second-best player was Matthew Dellavedova… and they went six games.” – Max (47:24)
  • Rich: “I learned how hard it is to play every position, every minute, make everyone better.” (48:42)
• Golden State’s Transformation:
  “In this game, Steph Curry is the best player in basketball… but in the playoffs, it was LeBron.” – Max (50:39)

c. The 2016 Finals—Game by Game Breakdown

• Warriors Dominate Early:
  • Game 1: Warriors pull away in the 3rd/4th, “Coach’s quarter” (51:52)
  • Game 2: Cavs get blown out; “You feel confident… protect home court.” (54:53)
• Cavs Resilience:
  • Game 3: Cavs win by 30, despite no Kevin Love (55:39)
  • Game 4: Warriors take control (“series is over”)—LeBron and Draymond’s altercation at the end. Discussion of Draymond’s suspension and whether LeBron ‘baited’ him. (57:04–59:23)
    • Max believes LeBron’s savvy produced the pivotal suspension: “He goaded him and it worked.” (58:13)
• Turning Point:
  • LeBron calls Rich to the facility: “I think we can still win this” (60:41).
  • Rich: “Just get it back home… the games were closer than the score showed.” (61:01)
  • Game 5: The infamous ‘both score 41’ game, Kyrie & LeBron (64:19)
  • Ty Lue’s $200-in-ceiling motivational tactic debated (64:45)
• Game 7: The Epic Conclusion
  • Max and Rich both describe the gravity: “One of the most historic basketball games that will ever be played.” (66:31)
  • Rich shares Ty Lue led the coaching staff to San Quentin before the game to reinforce that “this isn’t pressure, this is pressure.” (69:21–74:39)
    • “Game 7 isn’t pressure. This is pressure.” – Ty Lue via Rich
  • At halftime, Ty Lue challenges LeBron. “If T. Lou does not have that conversation, we don’t get the block, man.” – Rich (75:57)
  • J.R. Smith’s key 3rd quarter run after halftime gets special praise. (77:21–80:30)
  • Max and Rich reflect on LeBron’s clutch free throw and the Cavs’ belief: “You have to believe you deserve [to win].” – Max (83:16)
  • Warriors miss every shot in the last 5+ minutes at home: “Fate/destiny—everything had to line up.” (76:55–84:07)
  • “Not just the best, but at that moment, the best ever.” – Rich, on LeBron (86:13)

d. Broader Legacy, KD’s Move, What-Ifs

• KD’s decision to join the Warriors—"the ultimate compliment to LeBron"—is dissected. (87:28)
• Hypotheticals: Could the Cavs have “matched” the KD Warriors if they'd added Paul George or another star? (88:19)
• Final recap: This game, and this series, is “one of the most important ever played.” (87:19)

Notable Quotes

• “Legacy… there’s nothing else to be done if you win one in Cleveland.” – Rich (40:15)
• “If T. Lou does not have that conversation, we don’t get the block.” – Rich (75:57)
• “At that moment? The best ever.” – Rich on LeBron post-2016 (86:13)

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5. Listener Voicemail & Finals Outlook (89:36–91:33)

• Voicemail:
  Donnie from Tennessee asks about OKC’s next move—whether to keep their two first-round picks or package them for a star like Giannis (90:13).
  Max and Rich reiterate: Both OKC and the Spurs have elite pieces and plenty of paths forward; health remains the greatest variable.
• Finals Hype:
  Rich and Max tease a preview show with a guest who "has real Finals knowledge"—eventually landing on Avery Johnson as their ideal expert. (92:03–93:14)

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Section Timestamps

• 01:12 — Show opening banter, social media, jersey stories
• 08:15 — Transition to Spurs/OKC series analysis and the Western Conference Finals
• 15:10 — Psychological side of Wemby vs. Chet
• 20:19 — Defensive training as a market inefficiency
• 21:27 — Offseason team-building strategies, Thunder/Giannis rumors
• 35:25 — Pivot to 2016 NBA Finals retrospective
• 40:15 — LeBron’s Cleveland decision; “legacy” discussions
• 54:53 — 2016 Finals game-by-game breakdown begins
• 66:31 — Game 7 preamble, San Quentin anecdote
• 75:52 — Halftime, Ty Lue’s critical challenge to LeBron
• 77:21 — J.R. Smith’s impact, Cavs’ comeback
• 86:13 — LeBron: “the best ever” argument
• 89:36 — Listener voicemail about Western contenders
• 92:03 — Finals preview guest banter

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Rich: “You cannot win without help. For anybody. Any quarterback, football player, basketball player…” (04:47)
• Max, on Spurs’ role players: “There are no Spurs where you’re like, ‘If that guy’s hitting a shot, you can’t win.’ Because they’re all good players.” (18:53)
• Kellerman on Wemby: “He wanted to let this dude Chet know at every moment, I own him… throughout the regular season, throughout these playoffs.” (15:10)
• Rich on defense: “If I was in the training business… focus on how to teach playing the defensive side. That’s a white space.” (20:19)
• On LeBron’s legacy move: “Winning in Cleveland was about legacy. That was it.” – Rich (40:15)
• On Ty Lue’s challenging LeBron: “If T. Lou does not have that conversation… we don’t get the block.” (75:57)
• On Game 7’s historical gravity: “That was one of the most historic basketball games that will ever be played.” – Max (66:31)
• Max reflecting on Steph in 2016: “On some level, I don’t think [Curry] thought… I think he thought LeBron’s the best player in the world. Like, he didn’t think he deserved to hit those [shots].” (83:16)
• Rich, crowning LeBron post-finals: “Not just the best, but at that moment, the best ever.” (86:13)

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Final Thoughts & Flow

Max and Rich’s dynamic—balancing big-picture sports philosophy and granular storytelling—shines in this rich episode. They toggle between the current NBA chess match (Wemby's ascension, organizational building blocks) and dramatic sports lore (the 2016 Finals, coaching tactics, psychological warfare).

Listeners are left with a nuanced appreciation for how championship cultures form, the weight of legacy in the NBA, and the enduring echoes of iconic Game 7s.

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For Next Episode

• Preview of the Spurs–Knicks Finals (with Avery Johnson as a possible guest)
• Further listener voicemails and debate on Wemby vs. the world

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Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

Max, you clean, man? What is going on?

[Max Kellerman]

No, seriously, you know, this is Sunday night, so we're going into Monday morning, but it's still Sunday night.

[Rich Paul]

Know. No, you. You know, you look like. You know I'm a big Godfather fan.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, me too. Chapter and verse.

[Rich Paul]

When he went to go see the studio.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, wall.

[Rich Paul]

It was. But it was Watts in the movie.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. And a man in my position. You look, like, ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

But Watts was clear. That aside, he was clean. Cartoon everything he had, everything. The house he had to. Everything was set up.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way. How do you like the way they anticipated the real Hollywood degenerate decades and decades before shit hit the fan with me, too. In Hollywood. Right. When you think about what was going on with that character. Real, real low life.

[Rich Paul]

Hmm. I didn't think. I didn't go that far, Max, because you know why?

[Max Kellerman]

You made. I read. I read the book. You watch the offer, and you see, if you see the deleted scenes, there's like. There's like a. There's like a girl involved, but not like a woman. Like a girl involved in that scene.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, yeah, I didn't see that. But you're clean, I say. I'll just say you clean.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Don't compare me to him.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not comparing him. I'm just saying you're clean. No, no, no, no. It's nice cardigan.

[Max Kellerman]

Thank you.

[Rich Paul]

I like the. I like the.

[Max Kellerman]

Likewise, the detail. Got a lot to do today, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

Got A lot to do.

[Max Kellerman]

You promised. You're taking us through the anniversary of the 2016 Cavs warriors, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

You're gonna take us through it, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And I wanted to. I brought my Cleveland jersey from that time, but I couldn't wear it because people just take things too far.

[Max Kellerman]

Can we tell the real story?

[Rich Paul]

Let's tell the real story. No, I was gonna wear it.

[Max Kellerman]

You were like, which one? And I said, of course. The Cleveland one.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You had put it on. And at the last second, you're like, yo, if I wear this, are people gonna take that? Like, I'm trying to make some statement about free agency.

[Rich Paul]

The answer is yes, Right?

[Max Kellerman]

Immediately, it's like, don't even wear it.

[Rich Paul]

Can't even do things like that no more.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just a day and age.

[Rich Paul]

It's just a day and age telling me, yeah, yeah. So you know what? So they spoiled it. And I really. I really was inspired because I saw my man Peter at Mitchell and Nets because they had the Roost picnic in Philadelphia. He got interviewed, and he was talking about. Remember I told you about the Sammy Ball jersey?

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

And he was talking about how popular it was. It had no name on the back, except it inspired me to go into my jersey closet. And we were talking about the 2016 Cavs, and it all made sense. But you know what? Some things don't make sense.

[Max Kellerman]

You know how bad it is with public discourse now because of social media and clips and stuff?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that when you could be discussing a topic and it's a sensitive issue? Right. And you can do. You can. You can, you know, talk about the premise that you're talking about and already anticipate what people are gonna say about it and qualify what you're saying based on sensitivities to the material and then finally say what you're gonna say, and all of the other stuff will get clipped. Cut out. The stuff will get clipped out of context, and people will be furious. And the thing they'll be mad about, you've already addressed in, anticipated and addressed in the comments.

[Rich Paul]

Of course. It just happened to me.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Just happening.

[Rich Paul]

But it's okay.

[Max Kellerman]

You mean the Scottie Pippen thing?

[Rich Paul]

They can clip all they want. Yeah, clip away.

[Max Kellerman]

But the issue with your Scottie Pippen thing is you seem to me to be responding to people who are saying Jordan didn't have help or something like that. But that's a ridiculous argument. No one serious really makes that argument.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I wasn't responding. I was. We were just talking. You Gil And I were talking about it and it's just a fact. I don't care what people think. It is a fact. You cannot win without the game won, without help for anybody for that matter. Any quarterback, any football player, basketball player, hockey player.

[Max Kellerman]

You look at the 79, 80 Lakers team who had Kareem and Magic, they were just loaded, right? Loaded. You had Norm Nixon, who's an all star point guard before Magic even gets there. You have all stars everywhere you look. And in the middle of the season they're like, we're still a little short, right? Let's bring in a Hall of Fame power forward in a mid season deal. It's like when you.

[Rich Paul]

It is, is that when they went to get McAdoo.

[Max Kellerman]

It is so gangster to win in the championship in the NBA that if you really look, not at every team ever, but if you look at most teams that won the championship, it seems like they, it seems like no one could have ever beaten that team. When you really look at the team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Well, that's the right way to go about it. You shouldn't be shy about winning, Right. You should make sure that there's no way we can lose. That should be the mentality.

[Max Kellerman]

The championship teams, not all of them, most of them look like in retrospect, how could they possibly have lost? Of course they won. The deck was stacked.

[Rich Paul]

There's no way we should lose.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

Sorry, Max, I got to speak.

[Max Kellerman]

My watch, you got to set it. Don't listen, I'm. You have to have those little watch things.

[Rich Paul]

I know, but. But don't worry about it. It'll just drive me crazy.

[Max Kellerman]

You probably have people in the house whose job it is to just shake your watch a little.

[Rich Paul]

You know what, Max?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

When you say stuff like that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It really, it really affects my life because. Because you make my family think as if. Oh, bro, I'm not Jeff Bezos. No, I don't, I'm not. I don't have endless. No, no.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, means of financial stability. You're. You're more like. You're living like Dan Aykroyd, not the Dukes. Right, exactly. Right. But, yeah, but see, Dan Aykroyd had Winthorpe. That was pretty good. Yeah, that was still pretty good. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what always bothered me about that movie? When they gave Eddie Murphy the job, the starting salary was 80 GS. Now back then that was good money. But that wasn't enough to have a brownstone and a. And a.

[Rich Paul]

But they owned the brownstone. They gave him the brownstone and a butler.

[Max Kellerman]

Did they pay for the butler too?

[Rich Paul]

They did.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, they're right.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. They paid for everything. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. All good. Okay, ready to start the show.

[Max Kellerman]

So I just realized something. I was calling him. I was calling him Winthorpe. It's Coleman. Winthorpe was Dan Aykroyd. Coleman was the butler.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I just didn't want to embarrass you in front of 400 million households, but.

[Max Kellerman]

No, it's more embarrassing. You know, I had something on my face. You didn't tell me about it.

[Rich Paul]

I've never done that.

[Max Kellerman]

You just did it. It's metaphorically the same thing.

[Rich Paul]

No, but you were in a groove and then they were worried about something showing on my sock.

[Max Kellerman]

Who cares what's showing on his sock?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. The square, where the heel go. Nobody got time for that. That's rough.

[Max Kellerman]

He said you look like Pippy Longstock.

[Rich Paul]

That's rough. It's going to work today.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, listen, I'm trying to get

[Rich Paul]

to Masuhi before it closes.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. Spotify.com 4242408341 we're going to get to voicemails. We're getting to voicemails. Do we have. We have audible. We'll get to a voicemail today. Once again, you're leaving inaudible voicemails. Terrible what you're doing. And you need to clean up everybody. You have to enunciate clearly. Okay, that's what I have to say about that. Yeah, you gave, you gave the email. We'll get to emails too. So look, I said this way back when, I like the spurs to get out of the West.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you did. And you look like you like the Spurs. You have them, they colors because.

[Max Kellerman]

Because they have the best player in the world. And when things are. When two teams are evenly matched in a seven game series, usually, almost always, the team with the best player wins. You get to a game seven, the best player in the world's probably going to win that game. And he, and he came up pretty big. You know, he didn't have the best game of his career, but he had a fairly representative Wemby game.

[Rich Paul]

What did you think the play of the game was?

[Max Kellerman]

Let me tell you something, I gotta say this before we even get to the play of the game. The spurs don't win that series without de' Aaron Fox. The difference, because they really don't have another point guard. Not only is Fox like among the most clutch players in the league. But they, you know, the turnovers were impossible when he wasn't playing. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they had less live ball turnovers last night.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh my God. The live ball turnovers were killing him in the games they lost when he wasn't there. And then. And by the way, he's clearly physically compromised. That's not him at 100%. But still he looks better.

[Rich Paul]

He looked better yesterday. He looked like he was. He wasn't himself 100% like you said.

[Max Kellerman]

But in between plays you could see him walking a little different.

[Rich Paul]

It looks like he was getting that little burst back. You see the turnaround in the lane, you see some of the, you know, getting through. I don't know how he splits those, those ball screens, etc.

[Max Kellerman]

Shot.

[Rich Paul]

But that's why he went there.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, that's why put him up, what, 12, blew out the candles. He hit some big shots down. He hit the.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, yes, especially when they were roaring back. He hit some, some calm shots. But, but the whole purpose of embracing the role of knowing that I'm leaving somewhere as the number one and I'm going here as clearly I. I have to be the number two coming in with. Which is okay with me. And then on top of that, I was with. I was at Keldon Johnson's house and he was actually praising De' Aon. He was like, man, you know what he said? De' Aaron is just so low maintenance, man. He doesn't ever like impede the flow of traffic amongst the young guys and

[Max Kellerman]

their successes and what, during the game, you mean?

[Rich Paul]

Just all season in the locker room, et cetera. And here we are, Mike Brown and de' Aaron Fox are meeting up in the finals. Two years ago they were best player on the team and head coach and they had a great relationship, you know.

[Max Kellerman]

Is that an advantage for the Knicks?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, I don't think so.

[Max Kellerman]

Coach. Who is that more of an advantage for the coach who knows the guard's tendencies or the guard who knows what the coach likes?

[Rich Paul]

Probably the player because the coach can't play. Uh huh.

[Max Kellerman]

So the player knows like generally what the other teams.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. What they're running, what these are. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that was, that was a great game seven.

[Rich Paul]

It was, it was a great game seven. You have to tip your hat to okc, but you know, the spurs came out and set the tone and not only did they set the tone every time OKC came back and took the lead and then the spurs take it right back and, but I thought the play of the game. Wimby picks up his fifth foul. They sub in Cornette now. I thought that it was 5, it was 5:48 left on the clock. I thought they would. I thought Mitch would put him back in with like three minutes. I think he. I'm sorry, I think he put him in with. With close to four minutes and some change left. He only sat for like a minute and something. But Luke Cornette gets in the game and this is why you have to have pros on your team. We always talk about guys that know their role. Luke Cornette, he's probably of everyone on the floor making the least amount of money. I don't know. I didn't check the salaries, but I just figured that. Right. And here it is, a big man, seven footer. He's sprinting down the floor to make a clean block on. On what could have been such a momentum change.

[Max Kellerman]

No question, the crowd was getting ready to lose it.

[Rich Paul]

But the thing about it is he's not pouting about not playing. He's just ready to go pouting about not playing.

[Max Kellerman]

He's backing up.

[Rich Paul]

It doesn't matter. You'd be surprised at the attitudes that people have. You don't understand. Everybody in the NBA was once the guy on their team, Whether it was their church league team, their CYO team, the YMCA team. And you never forget that feeling.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And so some people carry that with them no matter what.

[Max Kellerman]

And in the spurs organization, this something tells me not in the Spurs.

[Rich Paul]

I agree. And they such a fun group to be around. It looks as if all teams left. The Knicks, the Spurs and the Thunder, they look like a team. Yes, from top to bottom, look like a team.

[Max Kellerman]

It brings up Chet, by the way. You talk about Cornette's block. This is. And that list leads me to Wemby before we get to Chet. The thing about Wemby I love and I still think he's going to have to. He's going to have to turn into more of a post player. He needs like a sky hook or something that can be a reliable shot that little guys can't get. Can't take the ball away from him because he does these spin moves and he's exposing the ball to everyone on the defense. Right. And. And he has a hard time kind of getting close to the basket sometimes. So that'll come. He's only 22 years old. But the psychological component of the game and the emotional component of the game, the fact that when the refs weren't. Were letting everyone get away with everything on Him. He threw that elbow, right? Dangerous elbow. Yeah. But he's like, oh, okay, you want to come and do this? Take that, right? Think about that. Just put that thought in your mind, right? The way he did that, you know, and everyone clipped it. The mob boss thing where he's whispering to teammates and then teammates are throwing hard fouls because he's countering what's happening to the Spurs. But what he did with Chet, people were like, well, he never liked Chet from back when because Chet got MVP in a tournament when they're teenagers. No, no, no. He saw Chet and thought, that's my matchup. That's what the. Okay. I don't think anyone knew the Knicks were going to be this. But at the time, it seemed like that's basically for the championship. Going to have to dethrone the champs at some point in the playoffs. I'm going to let this dude Chet know at any. Every moment, I own him. I own him. And he did it. He did it throughout the regular season. He was looking for Chet. He wanted to humiliate him. He wanted to put it in his mind, you got no wins when I'm on the floor. And in the moment of truth, no Jalen Williams. Chet has the ball on the perimeter, right? Remember when he thought twice about it and then passed like he didn't want it? It's because Wemby put that thought in his head all season long. Not just this year, but especially this season, all season long, throughout these playoffs. And he did such a number on Chet. People are talking about, the Thunder gotta move him. No, people are talking about. I agree with you. I agree with you. Chet can learn from this and get good, and he's a valuable piece to a team. But that's how. That's how bad it was. He dominated him to the point where smart people are coming out and saying they might have to move him.

[Rich Paul]

No, you know, move Chet.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I'm not saying we don't have to focus on what I understand. We agree that they shouldn't move.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I understand what you're saying. I thought. I thought it was. Look, Chet didn't have the game. Everyone thought that he should have. Right? But he also. But he had four shot attempts or however many shot attempts he had, wasn't really unacceptable in the Florida game. Two shot attempts, that's tough. But I just thought from. Man, that top. That just top seven, top eight with the Spurs. All of those guys played extremely well, defensively especially. You can't say enough about Castle. We know that Dylan Harper comes in, has an unbelievable game. Kelton Johnson has. He hit two of the biggest threes back to back after missing to. I'm just like the mental toughness you have to have in that game seven and the support system. What that tells me, Keldin being able to turn around the shot attempts, that was misses and make told me when he went to the huddle after missing, everyone encouraged him. Not one person's body language, not one coach, not nothing that is so important when you're trying to win as a unit. We're on the road. We're behind enemy lines. We have to be united. We have to be, you know, solid. It's just us in here and our families. That's it. Everyone else is against us, and they come out victorious. And the passion that Wemby showed after winning, this is why man, like, that guy cares. And I don't think. Here's the thing. The NBA is entertainment, too. There's a lot of acting that goes on in some cases, but that's not an act. That is authentic. When he's shedding tears, he dreamed about this. This is. This is.

[Max Kellerman]

Know what else about the Spurs?

[Rich Paul]

Impressive.

[Max Kellerman]

Wemby is like LeBron in the sense that when you have Wemby, like when. When LeBron was on certain teams, I don't even want to go to J.R. smith because he's too good a player. But there'd be another role player, let's say, that would hit a shot, and you'd be like, well, if this guy's gonna start hitting shots, you can't beat this team. That's the LeBron effect. Right. WEMBY has the same effect, except the. This guy who's hitting shots is a guy like Champagne, or it's a guy like Vassal, or it's a guy like Keldon Johnson, sixth man of the year.

[Rich Paul]

Champagne hit big shots.

[Max Kellerman]

The point is, when you look at the other players on the team, forget about Castle and Harper. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

We know what they should be doing. Yes. Even Vass sells a player.

[Max Kellerman]

A player I know.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And your point guard, de'.

[Rich Paul]

Aaron.

[Max Kellerman]

And de', Aaron, like, of course those guys. Right. But the point is, there are no players on the spurs where you're like, man, if that guy's hitting a shot, you can't win because they're all good players. You expect those guys to hit shots.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, they don't even shoot it well as a team yet because some of their core pieces are very young and don't shoot it well yet. And yet they have. So they have so many good players who are not scared of the moment. And you know what, what, what? Castle and Harper remind me of puppies. Their, their enthusiasm is, is they get out over themselves sometimes because they're so enthusiastic. They're like big puppies on the. They're young like that.

[Rich Paul]

And yet, and yet to see when they become full grown dogs, that's when it's good.

[Max Kellerman]

That's why I said all the teams needed to tool up this year because it's a wrap after this year. It might be a rap already, but their defense, Castle plays defense, you know, they're kind of, they're, they're bordering on physically out of control, like reckless on defense. But they'll take that, right? Sometimes they're going to be an offensive or whatever. They'll, they'll draw, they'll draw some fouls, whatever. They'll do it because they're going to play extremely exuberant.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what, you know what, here's a new job for, for, for a, a ton of people. If I was in the training business, right, we have a lot of trainers, some good, some just okay, but there's a lot of trainers.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Some of the best are out here in la. But what I will say to you for the trainers, if you want to become a trainer, focus on how to teach playing the defensive side of the ball because just a white space in the training business that nobody's focused on. And if you could, if you could

[Max Kellerman]

really develop good defensive players, yeah, I'm

[Rich Paul]

telling you, I would create a defensive factory because every team is going to need 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 8, 6, 9, that's interchangeable. That really understands how to guard. Really understands how to guard. Because you look at a guy like Carter Bryant, he was a lottery pick late lottery pick came out when everyone said he should have went back to school. He lands on the spurs and fantastic. He might as well have been a top five pick. But more importantly, he's coming into an environment to where he knows his role and look what happens, right? I'm telling you, that's a white space in the training world. And I would be sending kids there to really understand how to guard.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, there's this idea that's gained a little traction that, and I'd like to credit who I first heard it from, but I can't remember now, but I've seen it picked up in various places since the first time I heard it, that the spurs will now be more. Sorry, the Thunder will now be more serious. Pursuers of Giannis in the off season. Because in order to counteract Wemby, you need more than Chet. Like, Chet, ain't it? In terms of. I figured Chet's as good as you can do, but the way Wemby. And by the way, Chet can grow at it. He can grow from it, he can learn it. You know, like, it's very clear what Wemby did to him. So that's like an internal thing he needs to get better at, like, facing Wemby. But in the meantime, the idea is maybe the Thunder are more motivated now to bring in Giannis to counteract Wemby. What do you think of that?

[Rich Paul]

Hmm. I don't know. It. It depends on what you would have to give up.

[Max Kellerman]

What if Chet was one of the pieces?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, look, they're gonna have to dump salary at some point to. To. To be able to make some of the moves they probably want to make down the road. I'm not sure who would go out versus who's. Who stays. That's up to the great Sam Precious, as Shay noted. But I don't know. I like the other way. I like being able to dump salary and being able to move up in the draft and using some of those draft assets to then pick a young player that's able to produce on a very moderate salary. Now, to really save you from being at that second apron.

[Max Kellerman]

Because they probably lose Hartenstein. Right. Hartenstein is going to be hard to.

[Rich Paul]

Two guys have team options, Dort and Hartenstein.

[Max Kellerman]

Hartenstein would be hard to replace. High iq. He didn't play great down the stretch in that game, but he's a high iq, effective player.

[Rich Paul]

He's great. Yeah, he's great.

[Max Kellerman]

And because Chet is light in the ass, I mean, like Wemby, those guys could get moved off their spots because they're skinny. Like, he's really more of a four than a three. Yeah, but there's a five, rather, if you're really. So you need a guy like Hart if you.

[Rich Paul]

If you want to find a loophole in the system. Yeah, it's exactly that.

[Max Kellerman]

It's.

[Rich Paul]

It's signing guys that you can then possibly trade out down the road and having draft capital to be able to move up in. In places in. In the draft where you can. I identify talent that can come in and help you right away. Because if you look at the spurs and you look at the Thunder, they hit on their draft picks. They just did. They hit on Chet, they hit on Jalen Williams, they hit on A.J. mitchell, the Spurs Hit on Castle, they hit on Harper, they hit on. Obviously they hit on Wemby and they hit on Carter Bryant. Yes. So when you think about it from. That may be a loophole in what is basically a hard cap that we're under right now to be able to keep your core guys that, you know, you can't move. These are can't move guys. But then replenish with talent that can, that can produce right away, but on lower salaries.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

So maybe that's, that's something there. We'll see.

[Max Kellerman]

The Knicks are basically two to one dogs. I think that's too wide.

[Rich Paul]

I would make two to one underdogs.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I think that's too wide.

[Rich Paul]

I think this is going to be a great series.

[Max Kellerman]

Me too. In fact, the one thing, remember I said the Knicks maybe should be favored in the series. Middle of the year, my prediction was spurs win the championship, but if the Knicks could get out of the east, they present a problem for the Spurs.

[Rich Paul]

We actually talked about the spurs and Knicks being in the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. For months we did.

[Rich Paul]

For months and months no one's given us our credit. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Sometimes if you don't toot your own horn, there's no music.

[Rich Paul]

Get to tooting.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, well, I'm doing that now. Brian Kenny, my old partner on Friday night fights. So 2 to 1, though. I understand if you want to say the spurs should be 60, 40 type favorites. 55, 45, 60, 40. And the reason I would say that watching game seven, Rich, is they really have a lot of physical, young, energetic defenders that could make it difficult for the Knicks, you know?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I know.

[Max Kellerman]

They really do.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. We're going to, we're going to preview for, for our show before the final. So I don't want to give up too much, but what I will say is Mike Brown's going to be prepared and I'll go into detail how he's going to be prepared.

[Max Kellerman]

But if, if Mike Brown wins the championship with the Knicks the way, and

[Rich Paul]

you never pay for a meal again in New York City, New Jersey.

[Max Kellerman]

I've been wanting to tell you this, by the way.

[Rich Paul]

Buffalo, Ithaca, where would he pay for a meal? Nowhere in the state of New York.

[Max Kellerman]

I used to do this in New York. I don't think I've told the story on this show. Maybe I have, maybe not. Recently I was doing a radio show, the Max Kellerman show in New York on ESPN Radio. And this is when the Knicks were awful and LeBron was in Cleveland. So I said, you know, who could root for this team anymore. I. I said instead of having. And the Knicks weren't providing us with guests, even though I was very pro Nick, and we were at 2 Pen Plaza and they could just send someone up from downstairs, they refused to give us guests. So I was like, okay, fine. You know what? The way. You know how it's like the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. Cause LA is such a big place. It's just like, yeah, by the way, it's the New York Giants. They play in Jersey. New York jets. They play in Jersey. So I thought, you know, New York is such a big place. How far out can we go and claim that that place is part of New York? So I said, you know what? We're gonna be. We're gonna be. We need to adopt a team. It's gonna be the New York Cavs of Cleveland. So we used to follow the Cavs on the Max Kellerman show, and we would call them the New York Cavs of Cleveland.

[Rich Paul]

What?

[Max Kellerman]

And we would have. And I used to have on as a guest.

[Rich Paul]

Preposterous thing.

[Max Kellerman]

And I'd say the whole. I said the whole Eastern seaboard and a lot up through. Cleveland's basically a suburb of New York.

[Rich Paul]

Well, technically. Well, technically, there is a connection to New York.

[Max Kellerman]

Cleveland. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Because Rockefeller left Cleveland and headed to New York first and foremost. He started building the transit system that came from Shaker Heights down to Tower City. They had a relationship. Henry Ford and. And this is all about the great men who built America. And so there is a tie to New York and Cleveland. And when the blackout hit that year, they want to believe that it started somewhere close to Cleveland and worked its way up. When the blackout happened, that. What was it? 2002.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, 2002. Cause I remember a blackout in the 70s.

[Rich Paul]

But anyway, no, it was 2002.

[Max Kellerman]

So we used to have on our coach. Instead of doing like a weekly segment with the Knicks coach, I used to bring on Mike Brown as the coach. I used to have Mike Brown on the show as the New York Cavs. I wonder if he remembers that. The New York Cavs of Cleveland.

[Rich Paul]

We should get Mike Brown on.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. But. But my. So my point is about Mike Brown. He took a team that looked like it was maybe trending slightly in the wrong direction. A powerhouse team. Tibbs built it up. No question. He deserves credit. But they. They. They got unlucky against the Pacers in one series. They were the better team. They had injuries. It happens. Especially if you wear everyone down to a nub, as Tibbs does, and then the next year it looked like they were trending, like the Pacers had gotten better and the Knicks maybe gotten a little bit worse. And then this year it looked like, yeah, they're good, but where are they going? And then Tibbs made. Carl Anthony made the offense run much more through Cat than it had been.

[Rich Paul]

Mike Brown.

[Max Kellerman]

Sorry, Tibbs. Yeah, Mike Brown made the. And that unlocked the Knicks offense. And they are an incredibly efficient offensive and defensive team under Mike Brown. If he wins the championship, that elevates his status. When you think of where he's done and the work he's done around the league to win a championship as the head coach in New York, after 53 years, it's automatic. Hall of Fame completely changes the perception of Mike Brown. And it's like, nice guys don't have to finish last.

[Rich Paul]

So can a coach have a love to coach but need to win instead of a love to play but need to win? Absolutely. This is a need to win for Mike Brown.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he loves to coach. Does he need to love to. Does he need to win? He needs to need to win right now.

[Rich Paul]

He needs to win.

[Max Kellerman]

But Pat Riley needed to win more than he loved to coach.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Phil Jackson loved to coach maybe a little more than he needed to win or what?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know if he needed to win. It was probably. Yeah, actually, he's probably a high.

[Max Kellerman]

Mike Brown loves to coach more than he needs to win. He needs to need to win.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Yeah, he needs to win. But the Knicks had a really things happen for the Knicks this year in their favor. Yeah, it really. It was. And sometimes that's just the way it goes. It's your time. I mean, the Sixers beat Boston. They don't run into Detroit, who had been the best team in the east all year.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think any of those teams that the way.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe not, maybe not.

[Max Kellerman]

Because the Knicks weren't winning by four points.

[Rich Paul]

No, they were destroying.

[Max Kellerman]

They were chewing teams up. Like, if I was a. If I'm a Spurs fan right now and I like the spurs team a lot, I've been saying they're going to win the championship all year or since the middle of the year. If I was a Spurs fan, I would be ner. Like this Knicks team is not a team I would want to see.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think the Knicks fans wanted the Spurs.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

From what I heard, I think they wanted the Spurs. So you got what you want.

[Max Kellerman]

Although the truth is, without Jalen Williams, careful what you wish for. They might have been better off against The Thunder.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we'll see. Game 1 is Wednesday in San Antonio.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll tell you what. Karl Anthony Towns, who's an underrated shot blocker, ain't blocking Wemby's shot, that's for sure.

[Rich Paul]

No, you have to stand on the terminal tower to block Wemby's shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Wemby needs, and then we can move on. But this has been on my mind. Wemby gets his preview. He gets moved off his spot too easily because he's, you know, not. He hasn't filled out yet. He's 22 years old and he's like. Just the physics of it. Like he's too tall so guys get underneath him. He needs a sky hook or he needs some kind of go to shot where he's not exposing the ball to defenders. Why is the ball ever here with him? It should always be when no one

[Rich Paul]

else can get it sky hooked.

[Max Kellerman]

Max, he's going to score 50 points

[Rich Paul]

a game if he develops a sky hook. Forget about it.

[Max Kellerman]

Forget about it.

[Rich Paul]

If it's like Kareem's.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. What I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

And he has the touch.

[Max Kellerman]

What, is he not coordinated enough?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, no, no. He has the touch.

[Max Kellerman]

He.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but Kareem's was automatic. His was like Steph's three pointer. You just gotta hope he missed.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, right. He was automatic, I guess because back then you're counting by two and now you're counting by three. So people don't value it as much.

[Rich Paul]

But the hook shot is such a. You know how hard that shot is to have a touch on that shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It's unbelievable. And Magic shot a running hook.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

For a ring.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you call it? The baby hook.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know what that was.

[Max Kellerman]

Baby hook.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Finals. And you know, Magic was 19, turned 20 that season. Dropped 42 in the finals. All right, listen. Deciding game six. All right. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. It's all come down to this. Who do you think will be wearing the ring at the end of the NBA Finals? Make your call with FanDuel right now. New customers can hit the court with with $350 in bonus bets guaranteed after betting $5 for seven straight days. FanDuel's the best place to bet all your favorite players during the Finals. Bet on their baskets and boards or build the same game parlay for a chance at a bigger payout, just visit fanduel.com gameover to get started. 21 and over in select states. 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming first online real money wager only minimum $5 wager required for 7 consecutive days. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets which expire seven days after receipt. Gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnectic Snoring?

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[Max Kellerman]

to bring actually something up before we before we get to before we get to your whole because Rich is about to take us through the 2016 Finals game by game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, what's the anniversary?

[Max Kellerman]

You gotta think where Dwyane Wade was talking about supporting LeBron going to Cleveland. This is maybe a good way to enter this conversation.

[Rich Paul]

D. Wade said what?

[Max Kellerman]

D. Wade supported LeBron going to Cleveland for his legacy. Oh yeah, of course he did. I saw a social media post on

[Rich Paul]

yeah, no, yeah, he definitely, definitely. Dwight, what is amazing?

[Max Kellerman]

What an amazing.

[Rich Paul]

Let me just say something about D. Wade. I think people forget who this guy was. Number one on the basketball court. That's number one.

[Max Kellerman]

Dwyane Wade. Between LeBron's best Finals performance and Michael Jordan. Between Jordan last finals and LeBron's first great finals performance. The best finals performance by a non big easily was Dwayne Wade's in 06. In 06, easily the best finals performance. He was basically Michael Jordan there.

[Rich Paul]

We watched every game. But. But I want to say, like the person of Dwyane Wade is even better than the player. And those four years in Miami, he was great. His mom and dad was great, sister was great. Everything was great about D. Wade, everything. So yeah, he supported LeBron.

[Max Kellerman]

Look, I'm telling you, I just thought. I just thought of a game we could play. You know, everyone always says that the person's even better than the player. But like Michael Jordan too good. He's the player's better than the person. Sorry, I'm nothing against mj, but come on. I want to do a list of guys who. You can't really say. As good a person as he is.

[Rich Paul]

He was a better player.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I mean, like, Wemby seems like a great guy to me. He's a better player. Yeah, he's a better player. Come on.

[Rich Paul]

But I remember when they lost in 2011, we went to the Bahamas and we were. D. Wade and LeBron and I were talking. We were just talking about how. How they lost, so on and so forth.

[Max Kellerman]

I've had a very hard adult life. I've noticed.

[Rich Paul]

And, and we were sitting there talking and. And I was just explaining to both of them. I'm like, I don't know why we even having this conversation. You actually thought that God was gonna allow you to win in that space that you were in, pretending to be the villain. Guys aren't villains. You guys are. You guys are great, great people. I know both of you. Hearts, biggest gold. I know both of you. And I was like, he's not going to do that. Because if he allows you to win in that mindset, then that's who you become going down the road. And that's not in the cards.

[Max Kellerman]

So it wasn't meant for you to be remembered as a villain.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

No. So they was looking at me and I was like, just telling you. And I told, like I used the term. Experience is the best teacher. I'm telling you, this is only going to help you going forward. So anyway, fast Forward. I think D. Wade was the only player that LeBron told he was going. What he was going to do. And it was really. I think they had landed back in Miami at like 3 or 4 in the morning, and he told them right then. So. So it was no time to tell because the next day we was on. We was on the phone, and every. The rest is history. But the entire thing about going back to Cleveland was. Was. Was about legacy. It was only about legacy. That's what it was. So he's right.

[Max Kellerman]

So the way that's such a big thing for Dwyane Wade to do, because part of it was seen from where I was sitting. The legacy thing is also obvious, right. Oh, my God. If he does this in Cleveland. But they had Kyrie Irving and they had draft pick. They had Wiggins, draft pick that would become Kevin Love, whose reputation.

[Rich Paul]

Well, no one knew that then.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, they knew Kyrie Irving at the time.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yes, he was there.

[Max Kellerman]

And so part of the perception, at least from where I was sitting, was. And what year is this? We're talking about 2000, 2014. 14.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So where was I? I was doing Sports Nation and LA Radio with Marcellus. From where I was sitting, it was like some of this is commentary on where Dwayne Wade is in his career versus where Kyrie is and where they were heading. Like, Dwyane Wade was getting older. Kyrie was ascending. Right. For Wade to support him when he told him that is an amazing thing for him to do.

[Rich Paul]

No surprise to me. He's from the Midwest. It's just no surprise. It didn't surprise me one bit how he embraced that.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. And when you say a legacy before we'll go to the game, because now this leads into the 2016 finals. When you say legacy, how did you. What's the moment that you told that to LeBron?

[Rich Paul]

Well, I mean, we were just having a conversation, and I was just like, look, I think this is probably the best situation. It may not happen overnight, but if you win, if you win one time in Cleveland, there's nothing else to be done. Because he already had rings. So it wasn't about. He already had rings. Whether you have 2, 4, 6, 18, whatever, you're champion. No one can. No one can say you're not a champion. But the idea of going back home, winning one. I felt that. I always looked at LeBron to be more of what I would say was the people's champ in terms of, you know, like Muhammad Ali was. Even when he lost, I felt like people really Embraced him.

[Max Kellerman]

He also did not shy away from the issues of his day.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And so I was always impressed by that controversial issue would come up, social political issue. And I thought that there were one or two missteps I wasn't crazy about, but related to Daryl Morey in China. I didn't love that, but I understood he has a lot of business over there and so did a lot of people. But basically, at every important moment in our country, right, where there was focus on a socio political issue, I felt like LeBron stepped up and handled it just about perfectly.

[Rich Paul]

And he was. But the thing about it was, again, when you talk about just accessible and sometimes this hurts you being too accessible. Because I think mystique allows people to not know so much to where they start to judge certain things.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I was so impressed about. Rich. Where Jordan was, he was doing things behind the scenes and stuff, but. But up front, he was staying away from anything that could burn him. And LeBron, I felt, was using his platform. And when you wade into, so to speak, into topics that he would go into, very difficult to get that right. And I was so impressed that I felt like someone with that amount of attention on him in the social media era would touch on that many topics and almost never step in it. Right. Like, it was just when you. The reason I'm bringing this up now is because you brought up the people's champ. I'm not comparing LeBron to Ali in that way. I know you're not either. But there was an element. There was an element of that.

[Rich Paul]

I'm saying that's how I always looked at it. Because prior to going to Miami, he had a grandmother's club. I always looked at him to have. Be somebody who. And I've seen this done. Who can walk in anybody's kitchen. If you can walk into somebody's grandmother's kitchen, you're welcome. Right?

[Max Kellerman]

That's a good way of looking at it.

[Rich Paul]

No, and I always felt like, you know, TI said this about him. Like, man, the man came to my grandmother's house. He's been. I mean, he's been in my mother's kitchen for sure. I've seen this thing across. And he had a grandmother's club throughout Cleveland. He had literally had a grandmother's club. And so I always looked at it as. As, you know, just if he was to go back there and win that, everything else from that moment is playing with the house's money. And so it wasn't an easy conversation, especially with everything that had taken Place.

[Max Kellerman]

What did he say?

[Rich Paul]

But I mean, if you know him, he's always going to be somebody that's going to. He's not going to give you an answer right away. He's going to go and think it through and talk to the people that needs to be talked to. You know, we had a very, very, very small crew, very tight knit circle. And. And so did I, though I talked to everybody. I literally talked to one. I mean, everybody is like five people. But I talked to everybody about the, the idea. And ultimately he got there and that was the 1415 season. And right away they went to the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

In the first year they went to the finals. But you know, it's funny because when he decides to go to Cleveland and you Talk about legacy LeBron with a young Kyrie and they trade for Kevin Love. Oh, they.

[Rich Paul]

But I knew how good Kyrie was.

[Max Kellerman]

But no question, everyone, no, I was thinking, oh my God, this is. He's going to do it again in Cleveland. They're going to reel off at least a couple chips. Because at the time, no one had won a championship the way the warriors were about to, right? Not like that was considered. I remember Phil Jackson was on our radio show back then saying, hey, you know, you take threes, that just leads to runouts, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, this is not the way you win a championship. Hey, no one ever won a championship with a point guard hoisting up threes. And this perimeter five out thing, right? You need two coming off Jordan and Pippen, you need. And then LeBron and Wade, you need two wing players who can play both ways and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So the, the daunting task of, of winning a championship in Cleveland was even a more daunting task than LeBron. And you could have known at the time because you didn't know what Golden State was about to turn into. There was no chase to know.

[Rich Paul]

Well, well, well, you knew it was

[Max Kellerman]

going to be that.

[Rich Paul]

I know it was going to be that. But the year before, well, or that same year, Golden State, I think they pushed San Antonio to seven.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you knew they were good. San Antonio's really good.

[Rich Paul]

I beat that series.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, San Antonio, great team. They never went back to back, but a great team. They won multiple championships. Golden State, young, they could shoot.

[Rich Paul]

But no one, I didn't know, no

[Max Kellerman]

one knew it was going to turn into. Not at all into, into the death lineup. 73 wins in 2016.

[Rich Paul]

There was a guy who was the former general manager of the Cavs who I'm telling. I don't know how he even had his mindset, but he always thought that there was a chance to come back. Chris Grant, I'm telling you, come back.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you mean?

[Rich Paul]

He always thought that there was a chance that LeBron would come back to Cleveland. He always thought that. He, at least he sold me on that. He was positive about that the whole time. And well, first of all, LeBron could

[Max Kellerman]

go anywhere he wanted. What's the team going to say? No, we don't want LeBron?

[Rich Paul]

No, of course, but I'm saying like the, you wouldn't, the way it, the way it happened, you wouldn't think that he would go back. Not so soon, not after four years.

[Max Kellerman]

So you know it's going to be hard to win a championship, but you try for your legacy, it may not happen right away. And then unbeknownst to you guys, the warriors were about to become essentially the greatest team of all time. Right? Like had they won the title in 2016, they had 73 wins. The Bulls had 72. They're going to beat LeBron James and Kevin Love and, and Kyrie Irving and da da da. And seal it with the championship. They're up three, one. Okay, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Game one, the Warriors. So they both get to the finals. Yeah, Wait, wait, go back one. 14, 15. They meet in the finals.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And I remember thinking the way I felt about the Knicks losing to the Pacers two years ago, which is bullshit. The Knicks were the better team. They were hurt, Right? They were clearly better and they were hurt.

[Rich Paul]

I thought everyone healthy. I thought the Cavs win.

[Max Kellerman]

Not only were the Cavs better than the warriors that year, but LeBron James should have been MVP of the first. He was. I thought LeBron James was as good as take the best player on the other team, Steph, whoever you want to say, he was worth two of the best second best guys in the league at that time. He was at his coming off Miami. He was an insane two way player. His wisdom, not just his basketball iq, but his wisdom was off the charts. He was firing on all cylinders. And in those, in that finals in 2015, his second best player was Matthew Dellavedova. They went six games. Yeah, they went six games.

[Rich Paul]

I remember I was sitting around the baseline and you know, during the game we talk with eye contact and I was like, you know, like, man, you know, like, come on. And he was like, I'm doing everything I possibly can, like do. And every five to seven years we have one of those moments. To where I learned something in that situation. And when I recapped it, I was like, rich, do you know how hard it is to play every position, every

[Max Kellerman]

role, every minute, make everyone around you better?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but in the moment, you don't. Because I'm looking at the idea of were this close to a championship in Cleveland. And do remember, like, my career is. Is. Is on the line, too, because this. This bright idea. I'm. I'm. I just. I think it's like the second year of me starting clutch, and I just went through the Eric Bledsoe negotiation, and I was in the. You know. You know, LeBron coming back, it was. It was a lot. It was a lot on everybody in that moment.

[Max Kellerman]

And also, this is way before you could afford human furniture, like in the Borat movie, right?

[Rich Paul]

And it was.

[Max Kellerman]

Now you go to Rich's house, you sit down, people are like, no, you can sit on.

[Rich Paul]

And it was also, you know, a moment to where as a family, like, they. They really trusted my instinct on something too, as well. And so. So it was. It was. So we. We're right there.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

A lot. A lot riding on the line. So.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So you see loses in that series and then. But clearly they should have won. They're the best. Oh, they'll do it next year.

[Rich Paul]

Except that I actually went to the. When the. I actually went to the. Was that the year we went to the. I think Mav and I went. Actually went to the. To the hotel after they won that year. I think we went.

[Max Kellerman]

Who won? Warriors.

[Rich Paul]

The warriors won. Draymond.

[Max Kellerman]

So the next year, the warriors get unlocked and they win 73 games. And I remember saying on Sports Nation, in any other era, Steph Curry would not be the best player in the game. There are too many other things that, like, for example, LeBron James does better than Steph that make him a better overall player in this era. In this game, Steph Curry is the best player in basketball. I remember saying, Space Jam 2 should have starred Steph Curry. Curry, not LeBron. Cause he. Cause it's his world. That's how everyone.

[Rich Paul]

He was unbelievable.

[Max Kellerman]

He was the unanimous mvp, the whole thing. But when push came down to, like, when the rubber met the road, right. We found out in the playoffs who actually was the best player in the world, and it was not Steph Curry.

[Rich Paul]

But when you go back and watch those series, I mean, that series. Each game, you're going through the games, but we can recap each game. Each game. I remember going into San Francisco and the Cavs Were very confident that they could win the series. But when you play against Golden State, first of all, it's in the Oracle. It is loud, very loud. Secondly, I mean, Steph and Clay just. You just gotta hope they miss. They hit threes dagger after dagger after dagger. They cut leads, they expound on leads. And it's one of those situations where people don't. People don't understand. You're playing this team twice a year, you're not playing them four times a year. And you have to. It's going to take you a game or two just to get used to all of that misdirection. And Steph never stopped running around. He's constantly running.

[Max Kellerman]

And you said, you said a game or two. Game one, one zero four, eighty nine warriors.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

They broke the game open with a 29 to nine run in the third and fourth quarters. And what's devastating about a third quarter run like that, that's the coach's quarter. You make adjustments at halftime and this and that. And so not only do they have the greatest team ever, but the coach makes adjustments at halftime. And they put distance between them.

[Rich Paul]

When they were hitting threes, it almost was like they shoot. They're shooting from like 30ft out. 35. There's so much space and there's like. It sounds like the net is exploding. Boom.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, you have two of you, arguably the two greatest shooters of all time on the same team.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

That was the year that Draymond hit 38% of his threes because it's not contagious. And before Steph, and give Mark Jackson credit for this. And then Steve Kerr took the offense to a whole other level. But before, before Steph, it's like you get the same number of points, however far away you are from the line. Why would you take a shot farther away? That was the thinking. But when Steph did it, it made it impossible to guard. You couldn't.

[Rich Paul]

But it was also so deflating when they hit three threes in a row, max. Steph could hit three. Then Clay may hit three in a row. Then you had Barbosa coming off the bench. Sean Livingston never missed a mid range shot in his life. Sean Levinson is perfect. In six years, he was. He went six years perfect.

[Max Kellerman]

Harrison Barnes was hitting. I mean, you know, they had guys who could shoot.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So. So, you know, they get down what? They get down two zero. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. So coming back to Cleveland. So Curry and Thompson combined for 20 points that game. Okay, Shout out Jacoby for these notes, by the way. Warriors bench Outscored the Cavs bench 45 to 10. Rich.

[Rich Paul]

No surprise.

[Max Kellerman]

And you mentioned Livingston had 20 points. Okay, game two. So that's a blowout win, really, for Oakland. I mean, for. For the warriors in Oakland.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But after game one, you go back to. We were sent to four seasons. You go back and we had this, like, little beats. Beats by Dre Lounge. You know, they put. Came in and I kept bumping into

[Max Kellerman]

you in that four seasons, that playoffs.

[Rich Paul]

But we had. Because we had to lounge. Had to. Great tomato soup, by the way. But we. But we had. We kept bumping into that. That in. In the lobby, but we had a room back there where, you know, players come in, they playing cards, they, you know, just to get away from everybody and. But. But keep your spirits up. So we. We spent most of the time there. That's after game one. Okay, game two.

[Max Kellerman]

Game two. 110, 77 warriors. Now, 104.89 is a pretty wide margin, but 110 is more than 104 and 77 is less than. Is less than 89. So that's a. That's a shellacking at Oracle. Cleveland had a 28 to 22 lead. Two minutes into the second quarter. Golden State went on a 22. 2 run. This is what.

[Rich Paul]

This is what, this is.

[Max Kellerman]

When Kevin Love suffered a head injury while attempting to grab a defensive rebound. He stayed throughout the remainder of the period, but he did not play. Play in the second half of the game. And your boy, seven turnovers. LeBron James was seven turnovers.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Trade them.

[Rich Paul]

So now. So, so now. So now we're going back. There was a 1055 flight leaving out of. Out of San Francisco, going back to Cleveland. I think I was on it very early. And you know, you're getting back to Cleveland, but you feel confident because you. They're going home. So you figure, okay, you just got to protect home court. The idea is to steal one, but you got to protect home court.

[Max Kellerman]

And they did. Cavs won by 30 at Cleveland.

[Rich Paul]

Game three.

[Max Kellerman]

Game three.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Everyone's feeling good.

[Max Kellerman]

He had a concussion, couldn't play. But they won by 30.

[Rich Paul]

I think t. Lou, he decided to put in, I want to say, Mo Williams and Dante Jones in this game because he wasn't getting much from the bench, I think. So I think I've had to go back to it, but I think. But I used to. I used to sit with T. Lou. Still do sometimes, but not as much as I used to back then, but I used to sit with him the

[Max Kellerman]

Forest gump of basketball over here. You're in every picture. And if.

[Rich Paul]

You know T. Lou. But I would sit with him at his house and he would be going over film like. He's. He's one of those guys that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, he's.

[Rich Paul]

He's. He's dialed in. And I think. I think that's when he put in, I think Dante Jones and Mo Williams, I think.

[Max Kellerman]

But it worked. They won by 30. Yeah, but this is when the series was over, basically, game four. You know, the problem is because you didn't get one on the road and. And you're playing the 73 win death lineup warriors once you lose, and they lost by 11 points, 108, 97 at Cleveland. Series is over. At that point, the series is over. They, you know, at the end of that game, LeBron and Draymond had to be separated. What can you tell me about that?

[Rich Paul]

No, I mean, that was. There was a scuffle and a conversation and a word, and, you know, I didn't. When I look back on it, I was like, okay, this is. I didn't think they was going to suspend him.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me tell you what I think about that. And I said it on the show before, and you didn't agree. LeBron James is very smart. When you have a guy like a Draymond Green on your team, he's a live wire, like Dennis Rodman. Maybe not as much of a live wire as Dennis Rodman, but Draymond is walking the line.

[Rich Paul]

He's like a vegan Dennis Robin.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right. He's a vegan. Vegan Dennis Robin. But he's walking the line. Right? And when you have a guy like that, LeBron had to know he could be baited. And the way LeBron stepped over him, you knew the next Tech is a viola. He's suspended a game. Right. LeBron stepped over him, goaded him. It worked.

[Rich Paul]

No, I don't think Draymond took the bait. I don't think so, though.

[Max Kellerman]

This adds to your guy's legacy. Let me go with this one, Rich. Come along with me on this one. Trust me, it's good for LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they both my guys, but go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

He baited him, got Treymond suspended, and it turned the series. One of the greatest things LeBron ever did as a genius basketball player. Rich.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I don't know. You know, I just think that not helping me his legacy is what it is. I just think that, you know, there's. There's a lot. Emotions are definitely running high Right.

[Max Kellerman]

And you just step over him like that. I don't know if Draymond just keeps cool, you. If Draymond keeps his cool, warriors probably win that series.

[Rich Paul]

But no one's. But no one's saying, like, I'm. Who's thinking, like, I'm a step over him, Then he's gonna react this way. And then,

[Max Kellerman]

you know, this dude cannot. By the way, it was in the media. It's not like we found out after the fact. Oh, oh, really? He only had the next Tech was a suspension. Everyone knew the next tech was a suspension, and LeBron obviously had to know that, too. If I knew it. LeBron knew it. I'm not a basketball genius. He is. He understood and he baited him. He goaded him, and it worked. I mean, if he doesn't get suspended, do the Cavs win that series?

[Rich Paul]

If Draymond doesn't get suspended?

[Max Kellerman]

Draymond came this close to being MVP of the series. He did. He missed the next game. They lost the game.

[Rich Paul]

But, I mean. I mean, that was a big point in the series, don't get me wrong. But did you see the Game 5 that Kyrie and LeBron had, but before that? So after that game, obviously, game three, emotions are running high. Game four, emotions are running low. And LeBron calls me to the practice facility. He calls me and he's like, yo, meet me at the practice facility. And I'm. I'm 12 minutes away from the practice facility. At the time, he got. He's. He's halfway. The practice facility is halfway from his house, but I'm a little closer. So I meet him there, and he's. And he's. He's. He's shooting, and he has on these shoes that they were. They're not his signature shoe, but they're. They're like. I think they were, like, the soldiers or whatever, and they. And. But they're blacked out because he's wearing them as, like, samples, and he's shooting and we're talking or whatever, and we're having a conversation, and I'm just acting like, how do you feel? And he was like, man, you know, I think we can still win this. He said that it was me, him, and Weems was there. Weems is now the assistant general manager of the Cavs. And Brandon Weems. And he was like, I think Brandon was there. Yes. And he was like, I think we can still win. And I was like, yeah, you know, listen, long as you got life, I think you can win, too. And so we were just having A conversation. He was going over certain things.

[Max Kellerman]

Did you really think they could win?

[Rich Paul]

I did, I did. You know, but my thing is it's not, you're not trying, you're trying to win one game, right?

[Max Kellerman]

One at a time.

[Rich Paul]

Just, just get it back home. Can't win three games, right? So it's not like I predicted they was going to, to win. I'm just saying just, just win one game. And I felt like the series was a lot closer, the games were a lot closer than what the score was telling at the time.

[Max Kellerman]

That's the thing about the warriors, when they get hot. It happens so fast.

[Rich Paul]

And it was. But you know, we call that after card. So you just trying to focus on this one game. But I remember he actually wasn't supposed to wear those shoes and he wore them in game five. And he was like, I think he was like. I think we, we saw something on tape.

[Max Kellerman]

Did he keep wearing them after, like a baseball, baseball player would wear those the rest of the season?

[Rich Paul]

No, he did.

[Max Kellerman]

He. By the way, the reason I bring up the Draymond goating thing is because I've had so many arguments with people through the years where they said, well, the league gave the Cavs a gift, right? But my point is, Rich, the league didn't do shit. LeBron created a situation where he took out, he got their best player, he let their best player self destruct in the moment of truth. That was not the league had to. It was a tech, he was down to his last.

[Rich Paul]

You only get those type of comments when it's towards LeBron. It's guy get hurt on his team, didn't matter. Guy get hurt on the other team and they beat that team. Oh, he only won because the guy got hurt. Whatever. But the point is, so they go, we go back to, to San Francisco and now, you know, we're standing that equinox. I mean we sent the four seasons, but there's an equinox connected to it. So we like, let's go and we're going to go on hoop. So we go, we go downstairs to hoop and it's me, is Al, Josh, who were like Kyrie's guys out. I mean they both now are, are, are at clutch, but, but Josh Harrison's his agent and he played at Duke and Chris Smith, who's JR's brother and me sharpshooter and Me too, me too.

[Max Kellerman]

And so I wasn't there. I wasn't there.

[Rich Paul]

And so we're playing these guys and it literally felt like the game before the game now, mind you.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you mean? It got competitive?

[Rich Paul]

Very competitive. But. But it's because they're looking at us like we're. We're with the Cavs, but you know which we are. We. We there as family of the players there and representation. But it got very competitive, Max. Like, literally very competitive.

[Max Kellerman]

So who won?

[Rich Paul]

It didn't just hear me tell you who was on the team. I don't know if they knew that these guys went to, like, Duke and Louisville. Don't count me. I'm just. I'm just out there, really. But I'm scoring because.

[Max Kellerman]

Getting some open shots.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. With that team, of course, in the Equinox.

[Max Kellerman]

So what was the score in the end?

[Rich Paul]

Because game five, we won, like, four games.

[Max Kellerman]

Game five was 11297 for the Cavs at Oracle.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you got two guys scoring that

[Max Kellerman]

game, by the way, 41 apiece, max.

[Rich Paul]

That was two guys in the Finals scoring 41 apiece. That they always say, whoever wins game five wins wins the series. But in this case, you down three one. I don't know if it's true when you down three one, but I felt like it would be a game seven when they won Game five.

[Max Kellerman]

You did?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I did. I felt like it'd be a game seven. And I felt like, like you just said in game seven, you gotta. You gotta go with the best player.

[Max Kellerman]

Now, I won't jump to the end here, but ty lue put $200. Took $200 from the whole roster. Hit it in the ceiling. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Hit it in the ceiling. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But I didn't love that move. Only because Doc had done that with the Celtics not that long before that.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think Ty was on that. Was he on? No, he knew it. He knew it.

[Max Kellerman]

There's something that Ty Lue did that was very cool. We will talk about it when we get to it. Yeah, but this move, not as much. This move is a little retread. He's using someone else's move. And.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I don't. Listen, you watching tape. You're trying to figure out how to beat your opponent.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You trying to.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Doc took 100, so he took 200.

[Rich Paul]

You're trying to find ways.

[Max Kellerman]

Take 10 GS from everyone and put it in this $200.

[Rich Paul]

You're trying to find ways. But I knew.

[Max Kellerman]

I felt like game six, 115101 back in Cleveland. The Cavs scored the game's first eight points. He LeBron another 41 points, this time with 11 dimes and eight rebounds and four steals and three blocks. But you knew it would be a game one turnover.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, he had. That was a monster game. Back to back, 41 point game. But you knew. But you look here, Tristan has 16 rebounds. I didn't even realize this. LeBron Scott had 18 straight points from the end of the third to seven and fourth. Wow.

[Max Kellerman]

And anything I see printed, I believe,

[Rich Paul]

well, Jacoby's not going. He's not going to sell us a fugazi.

[Max Kellerman]

So that brings us to game seven. In game seven, Michael Price and I were like, you know what? We're going to charter a flight. We're going up. As fans, we knew that whatever the outcome, this is one of the most historic basketball games that will ever be played.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Enormous.

[Rich Paul]

You could have got on Delta Max.

[Max Kellerman]

I should have. I should have. Ed, this is before I really was aware of the greatness of Delta. But no more commercials till we start. We have to talk.

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[Max Kellerman]

So we get up there and I got. I think we're three rows back, center court looking, and it was. That was one of the greatest sporting events of all time that had an enormous impact on the. And by the way, people overuse the word impact when they just mean effect, right? Impactful, you mean effective impact, you mean the effect. In this case, you could say impact. It had an impact on the. On the history of basketball. Right. If. If Steph wins in 2016, LeBron never wins the championship in Cleveland, yes. The era. You know, if Steph hits a couple shots in that fourth quarter and they win, the ERA is going to be seen as now shifting to Steph Curry, who was just the unanimous MVP and would have. Draymond would have won finals mvp, but Steph's team would have won the championship.

[Rich Paul]

Draymond would have won Finals MVP.

[Max Kellerman]

Draymond was that close to winning Finals MVP, but instead, with. I think it was 5:22 left, and I believe I have it in my phone, I took a picture of the

[Rich Paul]

scoreboard, and in the fourth quarter, you're saying fourth quarter. But before that, Max, you skipping the whole. For the listeners, you're skipping so much.

[Max Kellerman]

Go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

You're right back to tomato soup at the Four Seasons.

[Max Kellerman]

Number one. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

I remember this like it was yesterday.

[Max Kellerman]

I said I was going to hit this part, and I skipped right past it because there's an important thing.

[Rich Paul]

It's Saturday, right? I think the. I think game seven was played on Sunday, which was Father's Day, I think.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's right.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, so I come from somewhere. I think we were walking to Coral from Coral Tree or something, having lunch, and I bump into TLU and couple of his staff down at the. In the lobby at the valet area. So I'm like, where are you guys going? He's like, just, we're going to San Quentin. You're going, too. I'm like, what? San Quentin? So for some reason, I've gotten San Quentin confused with Alcatraz. Don't tell me how the island.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So I'm thinking, okay, we're going to see what used to be a prison. Okay, great. He said something like, you can't wear blue jeans. Cause I think they wore blue jeans in the prison. I think it was either blue jeans or you can't wear whatever you. Whatever they had on, you can't wear. So I asked. I said, well, can my friend, one of my closest friends, Todd Lebo, I said, can Todd go with us? He said, yeah, Todd and Craig can both go. So cool. We go, but we don't really know we're going to get into Max. We pull up to San Quentin.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich got his golf bag, clubs.

[Rich Paul]

We pull up. So, okay, so I still think we're going on, like, this visit of, like, this surface level visit of San Quentin. Max, when I tell you we didn't visit San Quentin, we were in San Quentin, the only difference between us and the people that were there were we. That we weren't going to a cell. We were. We got to Leave. But we were in difference, though.

[Max Kellerman]

That's the kind of. The whole difference.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no, no. But still. But. But here's the thing. You're in the prison. Yeah, we were in the chow hall. We were with the warden, which is the worst guy to be with in the prison, by the way, because why are we with him?

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

And we went to everything from death row to where they work out at to. I mean, everything. And obviously, because T. Lou played for the. For the Lakers. A lot of the guys knew him when he was a Laker, right? And coach, you know, obviously coaching the finals, whatever. They know him now, too, but they remember when he was a Laker, and everybody. Everybody was cool. I actually saw a guy from 105, which is. Don't tell me how the hell he got into san Quentin from 105 in Cleveland, which didn't make any sense to me, but he was there. And we go to where they do the.

[Max Kellerman]

The.

[Rich Paul]

The gas and the electric chair and all that. And you saw where, like, the family.

[Max Kellerman]

Death row. For real.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. And the media. And the media sit and all that. We went to the chapel. We. We did everything right. So the whole time I'm. And I'm looking at Todd, and I'm like, why do. If you don't put that in your pocket, I'm like, take your watch off. But, you know, we're inside the joint. So anyway, we get out, thank God, we're out of there, right? And I asked T. Lou, I said, man, why did you want to do this? And he was like, because when I talk to the guys, I'm talking to them about pressure and how game seven isn't pressure. This is pressure. And he was right, because there was a lot of guys there, great guys, but, you know, when you inside a penitentiary, there's some guys that's never going to see home, never going to see their family again.

[Max Kellerman]

Dude from 105th who tried to blend in with you guys and walk out.

[Rich Paul]

No, he didn't. And. But you're never going, you know. And so it puts your mind to a place to where you start to, you know, place things in perspective.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like there's a reel going around of Shaq talking about this. I forgot where he was. But how. His dad. He called his dad complaining about something, and his dad made him come home and took him out in the morning to see a family living under a bridge. And he said, that's pressure.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And I appreciated going after the fact. So then what that led me to was it led me to E40's double CD and he has a song on there, and it has a Lionel Richie sample, and it's called Zoom. I listened to this song from the time we. Because they used to line the buses. If you have the buses where you take the families over from the time. And you got to leave very early because of that. That. The Bay Bridge. So you gotta leave very early to get in that traffic, through that traffic. It was a Sunday, but it's still traffic. And I listened to this song from the Four Seasons till you pull up at the Oracle, and. Because I was just. I was still going back to San Quentin, just in terms of, like, really make you appreciate life.

[Max Kellerman]

What's the effect on the players? What did they say? What did they say at the time? Were. They. Did. They were like. What were the comments at the time?

[Rich Paul]

No, I mean, I think it gave a calmness to the players. Players.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, the inmates must have wanted autographs and stuff like that, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I mean, with T. Lou, they wanted pictures. I mean, they. They wanted pictures and stuff with. There is no pictures to take. They were.

[Max Kellerman]

Wait, the players didn't go?

[Rich Paul]

No, just the coaching staff went. Oh, no, the players didn't go. Just the coaching staff. I understand what you worked out.

[Max Kellerman]

I was going to say you should have taken the players. Whatever. He.

[Rich Paul]

No, you can't take the players. Are you crazy? Now he's trying to start a riot. Yeah, can't take the players. But I mean, if you. If you set it up to. I know, I know the warriors had a. A type of league or something in San Quentin before. I think they did it every year. But no, he just went to be able to prepare for the speech, but obviously it worked out. But then also, I think one of the greatest things about T. Lou, I talked to this about coaches, even coaches now, being able to connect to players and being able to relate and more importantly, being able to make players. Players understand how much you actually care. And you care enough to challenge them, but you're challenging them. You're challenging them in a way in which you want to get the best out of them. And at halftime, you know, LeBron didn't have the best half.

[Max Kellerman]

No, the. Easily the best player in the game was Draymond Green.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he didn't have the best half. And, and, and.

[Max Kellerman]

But in the moment of truth.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, in the moment, you know, T. Lou really challenged him in that locker room.

[Max Kellerman]

So what happened?

[Rich Paul]

Tell him in that locker room. I wasn't in the locker room, but T. Lou Told me. And obviously LeBron told me that he challenged him and was like, hey, I basically tell him, I need more from you. Like, literally, I need more from you. And when you're able to talk to your best player. And don't get me wrong, I don't think he took it. He didn't take it well in the beginning. Cause obviously you're gonna get defensive.

[Max Kellerman]

What do you say?

[Rich Paul]

The average person get defensive. I wasn't in the locker room, Max, Come on.

[Max Kellerman]

They played it back for you both dudes. You heard the coaches pointed out.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I think Richard. But I think Richard Jefferson told this story too. And so I imagine, you know, he's looking around like. And then you're like. But I'm telling you right now, Max, I really believe this. If T. Lou does not have that conversation, LeBron that locker room and challenge him in that locker room. We don't get the block. We don't get the block, man.

[Max Kellerman]

So many things have to go just right.

[Rich Paul]

Just right.

[Max Kellerman]

Because that's when people talk about fate or destiny, it feels like everything had that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. If you really watch where he took off from for the block, it's almost like I'm going to show you.

[Max Kellerman]

I remember the feeling watching that game, Rich, was that the Cavs were destined to win. That's what it felt like to me watching in the second half, like.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you know the biggest part of

[Max Kellerman]

the second half, distance between them.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you know what? People don't talk about this. J.R. smith played a big role, man.

[Max Kellerman]

No question.

[Rich Paul]

He played a big role. And I remember.

[Max Kellerman]

And he was their best perimeter defender.

[Rich Paul]

I remember prior to. J.R. is a big guy. Six seven. What?

[Max Kellerman]

J.R. is six foot five.

[Rich Paul]

No chance.

[Max Kellerman]

You always give everyone two inches because. Because the NBA now J.R. smith is 67. J.R. smith six foot five. Listen, J.R. smith is not six foot six. He's. He's like an inch shorter than Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, we'll stand next to him. You look like Danny DeVito.

[Max Kellerman]

But if he's 6:5 in the NBA, it means he's really 6:3 and a half.

[Rich Paul]

No, J.R. smith is 6, 7. But here's what I'll tell you.

[Max Kellerman]

Someone look up J.R. smith's height.

[Rich Paul]

We sound like coming to America. Roxy, Rocky, Basiano. Okay, so he's 6, 7 with shoes on. No, he's 67 with shoes on.

[Max Kellerman]

That's an NBA 6 6. Okay, so listen, he might be 5 11.

[Rich Paul]

Let's put the difference. But anyway, J. So before Junior came to Cleveland. Randy and I are in atrium. We're in New York. We in a store called Atrium, which was my man Ronnie Feig, who is now owns Kith. But this is before Kith. He was at Atrium.

[Max Kellerman]

Did all those collabs with New Balance.

[Rich Paul]

He was at Atrium. So here comes Rip Hamilton and J.R. smith. They coming into Atrium. I don't. I don't know if they came together or they met at the same time, but we were all in there. And prior to us leaving, I say to Junior, junior, I see you in Cleveland. I didn't represent him at the time. He had no idea what I was talking about. But I was in the know that he could possibly be in the trade coming to Cleveland. It was between. The Cavs were looking for a wing, defensive wing. It was between Andre Roberson and J.R. smith. Not J.R. smith. Aman Shumpert is between those two. Junior happened to be an addition to that. He wasn't the prioritized.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, he wasn't as good a perimeter defender until he got to the Cavs. But he. But he could shoot. Shoot it. And he had crazy hops.

[Caller/Listener]

But.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing, and this is where I think that you have to trust your locker room. And this is what. Because there was a false perception of Junior, right? That he was this guy. Maybe it was the tattoos or whatever. I've known Junior a long time. We've known Junior a long time. And I'm in the conversations, and we're having a conversation. And I always thought, next to LeBron as well as dogs, you need shooting. You just always needed shooting as much shooting as you possibly can. Because at that time when he had, you know, the quickest first step and Burt, he always made the right play. So if he's drawing two and kicking and you got shooting, that's one thing.

[Max Kellerman]

He has some, like, you know, I don't think of these two, like, he has some like Zach Levine to him in the sense that Junior. Yeah. That he could. That. That, like, when he would do an explosive play above the rim, you're like, oh, my God.

[Rich Paul]

My God.

[Max Kellerman]

And then on top of that, he could bomb.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the other thing. Now, when you play with lj, Obviously, your game is going to be compromised.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right. So Junior's game was actually. Because Junior can put it on the. On the floor, he can post, he can. He could do everything. He was one of those guys that could literally do everything.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And so he was a throw in. In that. But they called T. Lou, they, you know, Griffin, them. They all had a conversation, and they called called LeBron was like. And LeBron's like, listen, I got. Let me. Let's get him. Get him, and we'll be fine. If you look at the third quarter, I think Junior had seven points or maybe even nine. I think maybe Tristan had two of the nine, but they were down. They were down going into the half by either seven or nine. One of the two. And Junior came out of there. I think he had two threes and somebody had a layup or whatever. But it was that moment in third quarter that really kept things intact. And then the rest of the way. Was the rest of the way.

[Max Kellerman]

And then LeBron at the end of that game, by the way, even when he hurt his hand and he hit, you just need to hit one free throw to ice the game. And the whole thing about LeBron is he's not a great free throw shooter. And some of the criticism is at the end of the game, he doesn't want to shoot or doesn't want to go to the basket because if he gets fouled, he's like a second, 75% free throw shooter. But I even think that storyline is super interesting because now, you know, fate of the universe, I want iguodal, right? That whole thing, Fade of the universe on the line. LeBron goes to the line, his hand is compromised, just hit one and the game is over. And he hits the shot.

[Rich Paul]

Well, if you remember a few plays before that, before, like when they. When neither team could score, Kai missed one that he normally would make, and LeBron missed one that he normally. It was just like a. He had the guy back down right at the dotted line, miss, and then they go to the huddle, and obviously the play calls for Kai. And I've seen him do that a hundred different times, just shoot off his right foot, and obviously, you know, the rest is history there. But just being there and being at that game, I remember talking to a lot of the media people, and that night I said. I said, you know, this guy's the best in the world.

[Max Kellerman]

This is obviously. This is the thing about. So I think I've told this story before, but I think it was Tommy Brooks, a trainer, boxing trainer, who had trained both Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield at different points in their career. And he said, the difference between Holyfield and Tom Tyson and the reason Evander was always going to win that fight, he said, Evander, he kisses it, loves himself, and Mike hates himself. So just using that as the kind of paradigm, there's something about when a guy goes to shoot a Free throw

[Rich Paul]

or

[Max Kellerman]

when two guys fight, right? Like in boxing, where you have to believe you deserve.

[Rich Paul]

Deserve it.

[Max Kellerman]

Like, Kobe Bryant was a basketball sociopath, right? Like he. But. But he believed he deserved it. He knew he deserved it. The fact that the warriors didn't score a single point in the last almost five and a half minutes at home in game seven and were making careless mistakes, right? And it was also, like, about to be the greatest team of all time. Who's the best player in basketball? The unanimous mvp. Steph, on some level, I don't think thought. Like, I think he thought LeBron's the best player in the world. I think he believed it in that moment. Like, he didn't think that he deserved to hit those. Like, there's something deep. Why does a guy who never misses suddenly miss or suddenly make.

[Rich Paul]

That's the destined part of it. Because I'm telling you, some of those shots, you just like.

[Max Kellerman]

What Wemby did to Chet, in a way, is what LeBron did to Steph in that game.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I don't know about that, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

It was an emphatic. It's. I. Like when he. When did he scream on him in game six, Right where he square. He blocked the shot. He blocked his shot and screamed on him. And Steph kind of like had his head hung, right? There was something in that moment where it was like, yo, you gotta resp. You can't let someone.

[Rich Paul]

I think, I just think with each. I think with each win the Cavs, the confidence just grew. And tell me when T. Lou put in what everyone does now, and that's Hunt, the guy who you feel like is the weakest link on defense. When they unlocked that, that's when everything changed in that series.

[Max Kellerman]

But. Yes, but in the moment. In fact, five minutes plus the greatest half court offense of all time, unanimous mvp, can't muster for him or a teammate, a single point. When he is the greatest shooter of all time, the second greatest shooter of all times on his team, and is a clutch player. Nobody can hit a shot. It's that now. Now, Steph was a young player back then. LeBron had been there before, right? Steph. The Steph Curry I saw against Kawhi and then the neck in 2022 when he was the Finals MVP. I don't think. I think if that Steph is in that series, maybe the warriors win because Steph can hit those shots. But I felt like LeBron, LeBron let him know. And Steph believed it. I'm the best player in the world.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, it Was, Yeah, I mean, it was young. It was a young series.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Between both teams and they had just won the year before, which I actually think that they felt like they skated on, on that one, obviously with the two guys going down.

[Max Kellerman]

But anyway, 20 lead changes and 11 ties. That was in a game seven.

[Rich Paul]

That was, that was. Yeah, that was unbelievable, man. That was unbelievable. And not just the best, not just the best player, but I thought at that moment the best ever. I did.

[Max Kellerman]

I can understand that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah. And I still think that that came,

[Max Kellerman]

he came, he came closest. But Max, I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of the Knicks and The Lakers in 1970. In 1969. 1960. Right. I'm thinking of like what other. The greatest basketball games ever played. Like, oh, that was the most important basketball games ever played. When Clyde Frazier in 69, 70, Willis Reed limps out the whole thing. And they beat the Wilt Chamberlain Jerry West Lakers for their, for the Knicks first ever championship. That is one of the most important. But New York, L.A. i know, right? Like, that's one of the most important basketball games ever played. Played this, that Cavs Warrior, I mean, it's got to be.

[Rich Paul]

That was, it's up there.

[Max Kellerman]

It's like the two or three most important games ever played.

[Rich Paul]

If that series comes on, you have to watch it. You just have. I watch it every time. And then they went on and went to two more finals. Yeah, but then, but then, yeah, but

[Max Kellerman]

then, then that was the whole issue with kd. It really felt like in, in a big sense, like KD and couldn't get over the Thunder. I couldn't get, couldn't get the Thunder over the Warriors. The warriors couldn't get past LeBron. It's like, what if we teamed up? To me, it was the ultimate compliment to LeBron James that KD went to the Warriors.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, compliment to lj, but also smart. Like, I want to win.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but it, KD's legacy will never be what it should have been. Not for me to decide now, to KD's credit, I was, I, I admired his move to Brooklyn because it's like, let me see if I can do this from kind of scratch. Even if you develop a super team, everyone needs help. And at least he gave it a shot to see if he could do it without a ready made situation. But once KD joined the warriors, there was nothing LeBron could do. Like they just, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Well, there was one thing, they just couldn't pull it off.

[Max Kellerman]

Who.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, you could have, could have Made a move for whom to.

[Max Kellerman]

To equal out step. Think of also Steph Curry and Klay Thompson are on the floor.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Draymond's doing all the dirty work and your other guy is Andre Iguodala playing defense and hitting. And then, and then KD is there. There's the space is. The spacing is so ridiculous. And you can't double because there's no way to leave those shooters open. That's an unbeatable team.

[Rich Paul]

At that time, I don't know how they do it, but I know at that time, once you know because you playing chess, it's like, okay, this year

[Max Kellerman]

who PG wouldn't have been enough? I don't think so.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, do you got to get that type of player?

[Max Kellerman]

But you're right now, now it's. Now it's. Yeah, now it's maybe it's a six, seven game series.

[Rich Paul]

I think so.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

At that time. Yeah, I think so.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Kyrie, pg, Kevin Love or Kevin Love in the PG deal.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I don't know what it was. I mean obviously we playing fantasy basketball, but apparently not. You need that type of guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

All right. You want to do. Do we have an email? We're going to do. Oh yeah, no, no. Voicemail. Voicemail. Voicemail, yeah, let's do the voicemail.

[Caller/Listener]

Max and Rich, this is Donnie from Tennessee. The only logical person or the best person to get that the Internet world would go crazy for for the football would be Mr. Marcellus, Wy and Max. You keep saying how WIMBY is going to be the greatest of the all time, but with that has to come the rings and OKC obviously are not going away anytime soon. Plus they have two first round picks in the upcoming draft. So my question to Rich and you, what should they do with those picks? Should they keep them or try to package them for maybe Giannis. Thank you guys. Love the show.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe who. Oh, we talked about.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean first of all, the thing about the. It all matters. Health is the main thing. But you think Castle and Harper are getting worse? They're just scratching the surface. Both Castle and Harper are potential first team, all NBA players. They're potentially that they don't shoot yet. They're not good. They don't have it. Neither one has a shot yet and they're already this good.

[Rich Paul]

Well, they also are potential. All defensive defense.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, but I mean that's why they would be all NBA, right? Because they're two way players. Harper is sensational. Castle is when. When I was Watching game seven, I was thinking. Cause I was thinking I might pick the Knicks. Watching Castle, it's like his defense and.

[Rich Paul]

No shit, you might pick the Knicks, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

No, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that just because I grew up a Knicks fan. I would not. Castle made me think. Like, just watching him run around, I'm like, man, that's a lot.

[Rich Paul]

So who you picking?

[Max Kellerman]

I will reveal that when the time is.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. And Marcellus for football.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, both. Both teams are in a good space. When you have the rosters that you have and you have assets to continue to improve your. Your roster, I mean, they're positioned very well, both teams.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, do we have any. Wait, did I even. No, we didn't even select an email.

[Caller/Listener]

All right, good.

[Max Kellerman]

We did a voicemail. How many things are we gonna do?

[Rich Paul]

We can't.

[Max Kellerman]

Wrapped into one. No more. All done. We'll do emails next time.

[Rich Paul]

I'm looking forward to the finals preview, though. Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah?

[Rich Paul]

Who should we get on the show for the finals preview?

[Max Kellerman]

That's a great question. Finals preview.

[Rich Paul]

We need somebody with some real knowledge.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

We need somebody that's been there before.

[Max Kellerman]

Only we had someone on this show plugged into players and stuff.

[Rich Paul]

I know. If only we had somebody on this show that's plugged into people that actually know basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Hmm. Call LeBron. See what he's up to.

[Rich Paul]

Well, now, wait a minute.

[Max Kellerman]

Draymond. I mean, I'm just thinking about guys who aren't playing right now.

[Rich Paul]

LeBron's a competitor. He has mine in the game.

[Max Kellerman]

You can't call de'. Aaron.

[Rich Paul]

No, we won't call him.

[Max Kellerman]

Can't call him.

[Rich Paul]

Draymond's a competitor, too. He has the Draymond Green show.

[Max Kellerman]

He does.

[Rich Paul]

No, they're not competitors. What about a coach? Ty, we should bring T. Lou on.

[Max Kellerman]

Is he gonna be there?

[Rich Paul]

Where?

[Max Kellerman]

In San Antonio?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, no, he would have to zoom in. Oh, we gotta do somebody in San Antonio.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Ah, what about. What about. Let's get Avery Johnson.

[Max Kellerman]

Avery Johnson would be a great one.

[Rich Paul]

Avery Johnson would be great. I'm gonna call him. Yeah, see where he's at.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm surprised Avery Johnson. Was he ever, like, parodied on SNL or anything like that? You would think someone at some point would do that. Cause, like, you know, like, there's some people in the world, when they're talking, you know exactly who it is.

[Rich Paul]

The good thing about Avery Johnson is he was a good coach and a good player, so he has some knowledge.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Let's do Avery Johnson.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, fine. Avery Johnson. I'm in.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna call him, see if we can get him.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, so game over with Max Kellerman.

[Caller/Listener]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

[e-mail].

[Max Kellerman]

i thought some players may have been at San Quentin. Apparently, no players.

[Rich Paul]

No. Why would you do that, Max? Are you crazy?

[Max Kellerman]

I thought the whole thing was.

[Rich Paul]

You can't run the risk of that.

[Max Kellerman]

So he's telling the coaching staff about pressure?

[Rich Paul]

No, he's telling.

[Max Kellerman]

He's not even going to hit any shots.

[Rich Paul]

See, this is where you. This is where you fly off the

[Max Kellerman]

handle with this, T. Lou, I thought you were a genius for this move. Now, I'm not as impressed.

[Rich Paul]

He's. He's.

[Max Kellerman]

He's.

[Rich Paul]

He's positioning himself to have a real conversation with his team. About what? And he's coming from a place where obviously. This is pressure.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. That is pressure. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. All right.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't know. The 200 in the ceiling. No.

[Rich Paul]

You didn't like that move?

[Max Kellerman]

No, it's Doc's move. And he only raised it by 100 bucks. Take 10 GS from each player.

[Rich Paul]

10 GS?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Walking around with 10 GS?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I'm saying, you know, like, gotta sell you. Yeah. At least a thousand Dean's, right? At least a thousand bucks. You gotta do, like, NBA players forgot the 200 was even there.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, I agree. I agree with a G, baby. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree with that G. Put a G in there and take a play to San Quentin next time.

[Rich Paul]

Ty Lewis. But you have to then say, bring the G to the.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

To the locker room.

[Max Kellerman]

Put people's watches up there. Maybe Navy. They get stolen.

[Rich Paul]

This guy. You know what, Max?

[Max Kellerman]

200 bucks.

[Rich Paul]

You are doing exactly what you were born to do.

[Max Kellerman]

Which is what?

[Rich Paul]

Talk on.

[Caller/Listener]

On.

[Rich Paul]

On. In front of a microphone.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

It damn sure wasn't coached.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

Damn sure wasn't playing.

[Max Kellerman]

No. Exactly right. This is. By the way, now that you've done all these different things, this is the best gig. Right?

[Rich Paul]

This is. I'm not gonna lie, Max. This is a great gig. It's so great that. Do you know that like everything else I do, it's now being used against me by my competitors.

[Max Kellerman]

You're very persecuted. I've noticed.

[Rich Paul]

I find it funny.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I think it's great they're using it against you, like telling potential clients, hey, he's going to go on this podcast.

[Rich Paul]

No, it's just like, hey, he's doing a podcast. Or. Or. This is not a podcast.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He's doing a show for 24 hours a day, so he's not going to have any time for you.

[Max Kellerman]

I see. Which is ridiculous. He's on the golf course most of the day. This is not him.

[Rich Paul]

It's like an hour.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Hour. When. When most of them aren't even up yet.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. But all right.

[Rich Paul]

That's just what happens. We've done enough leather jackets and now it shows.

[Max Kellerman]

Show is over 21 and over in select states. For Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.orgchatinconnecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.