Super Bowl Stars, Bad Bunny’s Big Night, and Kevin Durant’s Decision

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: Super Bowl Stars, Bad Bunny’s Big Night, and Kevin Durant’s Decision
Date: February 9, 2026
Podcast Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This lively episode finds Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dissecting the aftermath of the Super Bowl—breaking down the lopsided Seahawks-Patriots result, debating stars versus champions, unpacking the social impact of Bad Bunny's halftime show, and diving deep into how championships shape player legacies. The conversation weaves through football, basketball, and broader sports culture, peppered with nostalgia, philosophical takes, friendly jabs, and candid insights from two of the most thoughtful minds in sports media and management.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Super Bowl Recap: Seahawks Dominate the Patriots

• Both hosts got their predictions close—but the game ended 29-14, more one-sided than even they expected.
  • Max: “The Seahawks were in control the whole time... It was not competitive.” (12:08)
• Patriots Overachieved, Faced a Soft Schedule
  • Max: “The Patriots had maybe the softest schedule of all time... they built up against a super soft schedule.” (16:08)
  • Rich: “Exactly, but you play who’s in front of you.” (17:00)
• What This Means for Sam Darnold
  • Max: “Is this Super Bowl a referendum on Sam Darnold? … He was shaky early... but as the game went on, made responsible choices and emerged as a Super Bowl winner—but not the MVP and not exactly a superstar.” (39:53)
  • Theme: The game didn’t provide clear answers on Darnold’s ceiling.

2. The Murray & Culture Conversation: The 'Rise of the Black Quarterback' Doc

• Max celebrates Maria Taylor executive-producing a new doc (“Rise of the Black Quarterback”) and reflects on lessons from his father about race, sports, and camera narratives.
  • Max: “Something my father told me... look where the camera goes. It always went to either the quarterback or the coach. He told me, always a white guy. Not that anyone’s twirling their mustache in a back room, it’s unconscious, maybe.” (01:33)
• Rich and Max recall past and present Black quarterbacks, highlighting shifting representation.

3. Super Bowl Standouts: MVPs and Missed Storylines

• Kenneth Walker III—Super Bowl MVP
  • Rich: “Kenneth Walker was a monster. Deserved the MVP.” (19:49)
• Christian Gonzalez on the Losing Team
  • Both argue Gonzalez may have been the best player on the field, even without the win.
• Defensive Coordinator AD Dird
  • Max: “He’s the defensive coordinator for the Seahawks... British-born, speaks with a British accent. No one talks about Dird at all.” (24:11)
  • They discuss under-recognized contributors to team success.

4. Bad Bunny’s Halftime Show: Cultural Power and Social Context

• Rich gushes over Bad Bunny’s performance, emphasizing the vibe and energy.
  • Rich: “Say what you want. I don’t care if you couldn’t understand what he was saying or not. You felt it.” (20:49)
• Max contextualizes the show’s social resonance given current US politics.
  • Max: “There is something significant... the Super Bowl halftime show, dude singing in Spanish... people, you know, stupid people had a reaction, a bad reaction to it. Everyone else was like, stop. It’s fine.” (22:40)
• Rich shouts out Bad Bunny's team, noting their excellence in management and business. (23:34)

5. Nostalgia & Sports as Escape

• The guys riff on their old obsessions—bowling, pool, chess.
• Rich discusses missing out on extracurriculars in high school due to sport pressures, sparking a critique of single-minded sports specialization.
  • Rich: “This is why kids being pressured to play a sport, to monetize from it… I was so focused... that I did not experience everything that my school had to offer.” (07:48)

6. Star vs. Champion: Rethinking Greatness & Championship Windows

• They debate the sports media tendency to obsess over “stars” rather than “champions.”
  • Max: “So the big broad category… is this evidence from the Super Bowl an outlier? ... We have evidence that doesn’t neatly fit into that category.” (39:53)
  • Rich: “What you’re describing is exactly what our issue is in sports. Everyone wants a star and everyone looks past the champion. I’d much rather be... a Super Bowl champion. Keep your star, keep your stats, keep your magazine covers.” (40:04)
• Rich argues teams shouldn’t be urged to panic-move for players who haven’t at least made deep playoff runs (conference finals at minimum).
  • Rich: “You can’t rush for somebody that’s never won... or never even got close to winning.” (41:32)
  • Ties back to LeBron, Ewing, and others’ team building pressures.

7. Player Workload, Life, and Perception

• Conversation turns to the relentless demands on pro athletes in basketball and football—breaking down the myth that offseasons are restful or that athletes live ‘easy’ lives.
  • Rich: “When you work a job for everyone else, you have to find time for yourself... But being on the golf course, doing the pod, is that what this is for you? ... This is my happy place.” (03:55–04:24)
  • Max: “I understand it could sound tone deaf... People experience their lives subjectively...” (31:22)
  • Discusses vacations vs. ‘trips’ for families with young kids, and how sponsorship, playoffs, and Olympic demands eat up limited time off. (28:26–30:26)
  • Rich, referencing his own rough upbringing, defends the right of successful people to discuss these challenges. (34:54)

8. Basketball Deep-Dive: Kevin Durant, Legacy, and Team-Building

• Extended, passionate back-and-forth over KD’s championships, LeBron’s legacy, and whether “stacked teams” diminish the value of a ring.
  • Max: “He [KD] parachuted in to a 73-win team that came a play away from winning the title... There’s no way they can’t win... That’s reverse engineering.” (44:17)
  • Rich (pushing back): “Why should Kevin Durant care to get credit from Max Kellerman? ... Listen, the goal is to win. So if I have the opportunity to go—to win, I’m going.” (44:49–49:06)
  • Rich points out that all dynasties stack rosters; Max argues the context/degree matters—KD doesn’t get the same credit for Warriors rings as LeBron does for Cleveland.
  • Rich: “That’s discrediting what happened... I’m not going to discredit Kevin Durant for making a smart choice. He made the same choice you would make with your money.” (58:33)
  • Max (stubbornly): “As great as he is, he doesn’t get the same kind of credit.” (58:48)
  • Segment closes with “agree to disagree” and good-natured sparring.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Max, on the “Wisdom of Crowds” in sports betting:
  “None of us is smarter than all of us. The smartest person in the group is not smarter than the entire group.” (11:41)

• Max, on bad bunny halftime show’s deeper meaning:
  “With what’s going on in our country… the Super Bowl halftime show, dude singing in Spanish… that’s unavoidable.” (22:40)

• Rich, defending player empowerment and legacy decisions:
  “Why should Kevin Durant care to get credit from Max Kellerman?... the goal is to win.” (44:49, 49:01)

• Rich, on living both hardship and success:
  “I had a hard upbringing... to be behind the walls of this business and see what the athlete has to go through… Not only just from a plan perspective, but also like, they can’t say no. They’re in position where if they ever say no, it’s like the world is ending.” (34:45, 35:48)

• Rich, summing up player priorities vs. public expectations:
  “Nobody has ever won by themselves.” (49:29)

• Max, poking at the never-ending debate:
  “As Will Ferrell said in Anchorman—agree to disagree.” (56:55)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:01] – Max announces Maria Taylor’s “Rise of the Black Quarterback” documentary
• [12:08] – Super Bowl recap & game flow analysis
• [16:08] – Patriots' “soft schedule” and football analogies to boxing
• [20:35] – Transition to Bad Bunny’s halftime show and its significance
• [24:11] – Spotlight on Seahawks’ defensive coordinator AD Dird
• [28:20] – The grind of “getting back” in pro sports: player workload and offseasons
• [39:53] – Sam Darnold, the Super Bowl, and the star-vs-champion dynamic
• [44:17] – KD/LeBron “stacked teams” debate
• [58:33] – Rich’s final summary on team-building and evaluating what “counts” in legacy
• [59:38] – Tease for next episode: tanking in the NBA
• [60:31] – Invitation for listeners to submit mailbag questions

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Tone & Style

The conversation is conversational and rich with personal anecdotes, playfully combative when discussing basketball legacies, and reflective when tackling representation and athlete wellbeing. Both hosts are candid, opinionated, and comfortable challenging each other, while also slipping in moments of levity, nostalgia, and respect for the culture and community of sports.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

• You’ll walk away with fresh takes on the nuances of football stardom, why championships matter (and how much), how player mentalities and league narratives shape legacies, and the unseen toll of athletic excellence.
• The episode is rich in both sports analysis and cultural commentary, elevating familiar debates with sharp insights, humor, and occasional heat.
• If you want smart, unfiltered, and sometimes fiery conversation—this episode delivers. And they promise a deep dive on NBA tanking next time.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

All right.

[A]

Football's over, Rich. It's over.

[B]

It is.

[A]

I got the Giants on. Get the Seahawks and the. And the. And the Pats.

[B]

Why would you wear that jacket?

[A]

Come on, man. Represent Giants right now.

[B]

It's not draft time.

[A]

Doesn't matter. Does not matter. You see a couple of my Giants last night? Love and. And. And. And. And Leonard Williams did their thing.

[B]

So you excited about your year coming up now that football's over? He's totally focused on the Giants.

[A]

Giants get healthy. They're gonna be. It's gonna be. Oh, this is what I forgot to tell you. On Friday, clutch client Maria Taylor. Yes. Executive produced Black Quarterback Doc.

[B]

Yes, she did.

[A]

Rise of the Black Quarterback. I saw episode once. A hell of a. Hell of a doc.

[B]

Did you see last night she presented the.

[A]

I did.

[B]

The Lombardi Trophy. I. I did.

[A]

But that's. But that black quarterback died, and yours truly is in it. I appear.

[B]

Am I in it?

[A]

I did not see you in episode one.

[B]

Damn. They cut me out.

[A]

But that's something my father told me. It's in the doc. That they left this in when they interviewed me, but something my father told me when I was maybe 7 or 8 years old. We're watching a game, and he said, max, look where the camera goes. It always went to either the quarterback or the coach.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he told me then he's, like, always a white guy. Like, that's why he told me when I was a kid. This is why they make the quarterback and the coach always white, because that's where the camera goes if you want to send a signal that it's not the NBA, it's a black league back then make sure the quarterback and the coach is white. Not that anyone's twirling their mustache in the back room planning. It's. It's unconscious, maybe. But.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But that the quarterback.

[B]

Well, I'm excited for that doc, though. I'm excited for that doc. Yes. Yeah. As you know, Warren Moon was my guy.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But so many. Doug Williams Randall Cunning. I mean, there's just so many. And then obviously the current quarterbacks, now.

[A]

Briscoe, they get into the.

[B]

How was your weekend?

[A]

Great. It was great. Yeah.

[B]

How was the super bowl party? Sorry, I didn't make it.

[A]

Super bowl party. So, remember I told you my friend's bringing his kids. My. All the kids were sick, so it's just my friend and me.

[B]

So it worked out in your favor? Perfect.

[A]

We're just, you know, and I.

[B]

Wait a minute. Your kids were sick and his kids were sick?

[A]

Well, my eldest, who lives with me in LA, is. Got sick and she's 17, laid up, and then all the way on the other side of town. Right. It's not the same. Sick. Right. His kids were sick. Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Had to stay home.

[B]

So it was a good hanging. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

What about you? Over to LeBron's?

[B]

No, I played golf yesterday. You played golf?

[A]

You didn't go to LeBron's for the Super Bowl? No, because as soon as you asked me, do you have a golf simulator?

[B]

No, but you can't. You can't. You can't do. On the simulator. I actually did something really cool yesterday. I took a small trip, played 18, and then came back and watched the super bowl at a friend's house. It was great. It's great.

[A]

So you played actual golf?

[B]

I played actual golf, yeah.

[A]

Something tells me when we do this golf lesson thing, that it's not a fair matchup that you already play.

[B]

It will be fair. I'm just, you know, on the days off that I could put the phone down just a little bit. You're addicted to trade deadline.

[A]

People get addicted to golf.

[B]

You know, it's peaceful at this point. You gotta. You gotta. You gotta understand something, Max. When you work a job for everyone else, you have to find time for yourself at some point. And my finding time is not like taking this extravagant vacation. I can't turn off like that. But being on the golf course, doing the pod, is that what.

[A]

Yeah. Is that what this is for you? Like. Cause you're always working for someone else. This is something you do for you.

[B]

Yeah. This is my happy place. This is where I can have a conversation with a friend of mine who I respect his opinions and he respects mine, and we agree to disagree. But also being able to give insight to the viewers and the listeners. And so, yeah, I think it's a cool thing that over time, people continue to get used to, but a lot of positive feedback from. For us, people are saying, you know what? It's a lot of just static out there. When we listen to you guys, it actually makes sense. So that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Yeah.

[A]

There's a lane for. There's a lane for people yelling at each other. There's a lane for outrageous stuff. There's a lane for just conversation.

[B]

Yeah. So that, you know, every one of three people you see that says something that's. That's also fulfilling too. So. Yeah, I just try to find things in golf has been that of late tomorrow could change.

[A]

People get addicted to it. Like, I don't know if you went through this in high school, there was a phase where everyone shot pool. Where I was like, everyone shot pool. That was the thing to do. Same thing. It's like golf for kids.

[B]

I did this. I did this with bowling because my uncle Juni used to. Used to work at Euclid and Green Lanes. And on Fridays and Saturdays they would do this. They started like 10 o' clock where all the people would come in.

[A]

Yeah. We went to the bowling late night.

[B]

They would get us a little lane off to the side. And that's where. So now I wanted my own ball and my own shoes. Then it happened with Poole.

[A]

With Poole. It was in New York. It was. They had places open all night. $3. I remember back then, this is late 80s. $3 per player per hour.

[B]

Yeah. We used to go to a place called Sharkey's. It was on. Where was that place? It was on Monticello and Green in a little plaza. But you would go in there and we would go. You just get to rent the table, whatever, for however long. And then we started to get really serious. And my Uncle Lance had a pool table in his basement all the time. So I started the practice there. And you know, I love to. I'm betting. So I can't do it without betting somebody.

[A]

Yeah, you try to hustle. Yeah.

[B]

And so I got really good and we started playing at Sharkey's. And we would go there certain hours of the day on certain days, preferably Tuesdays and Thursdays. And then we would play there from like 4:30 to 7 8. Yeah, it was great. So pooh. And now it's golf.

[A]

So I think it was called Tech Billiards downtown. I think if it's the place I'm thinking of. There was a little roller skating rink there when I was a little kid called the Roxy. And then they turned that into Sunset. And then they.

[B]

That's not a roller skiing ring.

[A]

Yeah, right. And then they turned that into. Into tech billiards. And that was. That was the spot. Yeah.

[B]

The next thing I think I may try is chess. I need somebody to teach me how.

[A]

I got into chess deep.

[B]

When I was chess really good.

[A]

When I was in college, I got so into chess because it was a way to not do the schoolwork. Right. Whatever I have to do. The other thing's more interesting. But when I say I got addicted to chess.

[B]

Whew. Before we pay some bills, you know what I think about all the time? I didn't take advantage of my high school years because I went to school. Cleveland Benedictine. It's all boys school, shirt and tie every day. Looks kind of like Harry Potter a little bit. But my neighborhood school was Glenville, obviously, which.

[A]

The one you always bragging on. Yeah.

[B]

You would have thought I went there. That's where Kobe Bryant went Super bowl champ. But nevertheless, my high school that I actually went to, Cleveland Benedictine, we had a chess team, we had a golf team. All these things I want to do now, I didn't do then. I was. And this is why we'll get into this. But this is why kids being pressured to play a sport, to monetize from it. This is where the downfall comes in. I was so focused on being a professional basketball player, which never was going to be, that I did not experience everything that my school had to offer.

[A]

So I went to a specialized school in New York. You got to test in to go Hunter.

[B]

Right. I had to test in this place.

[A]

So. So it's public, but it's. Or it's lab school, but you take a test at a certain year and if you qualify, you take that test and blah, blah, blah, you get in. When you walked into this school, sports teams never did anything. But there are cases, trophy cases of chess trophies. Nationals. Right. We had a kid friend of mine, KK Karunja, who is a national treasurer. That's hell of a name in Kenya. Right. His parents from Kenya. Number one chess player in the country under 18. He was 12.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Another friend of mine, Jessica Ambat's number one.

[B]

Give me KK.

[A]

KK that's what he's called.

[B]

I need him now so he can teach me how to play chess.

[A]

Oh, no. And Jessica Ambat's good friend of mine was number one female player in the country under 18. She was 12. Like it was stupid.

[B]

Yeah, those. Those are geniuses.

[A]

But no sports trophies. But the sports trophies. Yeah.

[B]

We were the home of champions. It was the opposite, Chuck. Noah went to my high school too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's pay some bills. Let's do it. Let's do. That's like when little Billy Ferg do that thing. That's like a. A pit stop at the racetrack when they come in.

[A]

Wait, hold on. Explain to everyone what you're talking about.

[B]

That was little Billy Ferg. You just came in and did your.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Took the cuff out your pants.

[A]

Yeah, Dean.

[B]

That's a hell of a thing, Dean. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Well, you put me up on Dean. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Dean's great. He's got his. He got his. He's got his. Right?

[A]

For sure.

[B]

People care how we look.

[A]

Especially us, apparently. I think we care. I think we care more than anybody used to see.

[B]

Yeah, we definitely care. They were so used to seeing you in suits.

[A]

Suits and ties. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. But this is. This is a little bit more laxed.

[A]

Suits and ties were easy, though. Suits and ties, easy. Yeah.

[B]

But whoever wants to do anything, that's easy.

[A]

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. Listen, hey, I'll tell you what wasn't easy. The super bowl for the Patriots.

[B]

Easy to what? Watch?

[A]

I mean. Yeah, you know what? Because we both predicted you had 2717 and I had 2817. Right. And it was wound up being 2914.

[B]

And you know what? The over was 45.

[A]

Right. Yeah, of course they get that. Right. But that's. But, you know, like, you know why. Like, while we're on the topic real quick, before we get to the super bowl, you know why the line is so hard to beat and the spread is so hard to beat is because the. What that actually represents. So the odds makers will come out with a line and they're trying to get even action on both sides of the line. And then if they don't get even action, it gets bet one way or the other. So the line will move. But by the time the game comes off, what the. What the betting lines represent is the wisdom of crowds. Right? Everyone. This is the opinion of everyone put together. And there was an interesting book called the Wisdom of Crowds, which was a response to the book called the Madness of Crowds. And the idea of the wisdom of crowds was none of us is smarter than all of us. Right. The smartest person in the group is not smarter than the entire group, which doesn't make sense. You'd think that the other people would drag them down.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But in fact, when everyone brings their own knowledge to things and their own perspective.

[B]

Yeah. You become a power.

[A]

That's all the line is. That's all the betting line is, is the wisdom of crowds. Because it reflects where all the Money went until you get. Until you get the line. There's no, like, magic at work. Oh, they fix.

[B]

Pretty profound. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, the super bowl, we're going to.

[B]

Use that in our next staff meeting.

[A]

There you go. Wisdom of crowds. None of us is smarter than all of us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So, as people who predicted that the Seahawks would win, I hate every team out of Boston. Right. Like, I root for all. Yeah. So it was such a pleasurable game in the sense that the Seahawks were in control the whole time. There got to be a little drama late where it looked like, can the Pats come back? You know, the way football is, even if you're dominating the score might not reflect it. And then they turn the ball over and low pressure. Fun. Watch.

[B]

How do you and Bill Simmons go to dinner if he hates everything New York? You hate everything Boston, but you all have, like a over the top, like, arm wrestling match at dinner.

[A]

That's sports. That's just sports. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah, that's how it is. But you guys are like fanatics. But anyway, the Super Bowl, I had a few takeaways from it. Obviously, it wasn't what everybody wanted to see. It didn't have the photo finish and it didn't have the pop plays, et cetera. But it was such a lopsided game. It had me thinking about other things and I was just. For some reason, I was just like, damn, man. When I saw, like, the poet Justin Jefferson really was somebody, I thought about, why Justin Jefferson? Because, you know, Sam Darnold is playing in the super bowl just a couple years ago. Like, Justin Jefferson is the best wide receiver in the league, and there's no offense to the young quarterback that they. That they drafted. But I do think there's a world where you. You draft JJ and you keep Sam Field the other pieces around. Maybe the Vikings is playing the super bowl, and then Justin Jefferson has four touchdowns in the Super Bowl. You know, it's like that. That. I don't know what made me think about that, but.

[A]

No, you. I get it. Like, you know, because Darnold is good. He had the misfortune of being drafted to the jets out of college and. But when he got to Minnesota, by the time he got to Minnesota, you could see he was good. But they thought.

[B]

They thought.

[A]

They thought he could do better. They thought they could do better.

[B]

Yeah. But see, to me, this is. I do know what made me think about it. It's so hard for the guys that we deem the face of the franchise type guys and Then it seems like this, with only the American players, more than anything, that we put the pressure on them having to win a championship every play. Like, you guys have to win a championship, and then you do things like that that prevents them from even, how am I gonna get to winning a championship when every move matters? And so if you make a move that gives us the ability to go two steps forward, then great, that's good for me. But if you make a move that.

[A]

You'Re saying, you got to guess, right?

[B]

Yeah. You got to.

[A]

This is my point about Wiseman. Like, there's just no Tim Duncan in the draft. There were some very good players, like.

[B]

You know, you know, Max, the quarterback position putting. Don't get me wrong, Drake May was in the second year.

[A]

Yeah, Drake May will be fine. Drake May is going to be fine.

[B]

No, I'm saying that that normally does not happen, and he will be fine. But you could still have drafted the quarterback that you wanted while keeping. Now, I don't know what the salary cap numbers was and all that.

[A]

Donald's not at a crazy number, but.

[B]

He wasn't at a crazy number. He wasn't demanding a crazy number. Then. I don't know. I don't know what made me think about that. But anyway, yes, the super bowl was. It was.

[A]

Okay, look, the Patriots got outclassed. Right? That was outclassed or out talent outclassed? Because, look, the reason I tweeted after the Seahawks Rams roster.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah, the whole thing. The reason I tweeted after the Seahawks Rams, congratulations on Seattle winning the super bowl was not so much a prediction about Seattle beating the Patriots, which I took for granted. It's the fact that very clearly the two best teams were Seattle and la.

[B]

And la. Yeah.

[A]

And so many people thought that the Patriots, were they the third best team? Probably not. Were they the fifth or sixth or seventh best team? Probably. Like, the Patriots were probably a top 10 team this year. And they. They have one excellent win when they really needed to get it, which is in the playoffs at home against Houston. Right. Like, the Texans is an excellent win for them, but they had, let's be honest, this is not just, you know, Patriots hate out of me. This is the truth. Well, okay, it's both.

[B]

It's.

[A]

But it's the truth.

[B]

Yeah. Because your tweet was hateful to the. To the.

[A]

Well, I have tried to troll Patriots fans whenever I can.

[B]

Yeah, that wasn't right.

[A]

Where Donnie Wahlberg responded to it. He said something like, I had a reverse jinx and now they were Going to win something to that effect. But. But the Patriots had maybe the softest schedule of all time. Rich, that's not their fault. You got to play who's in front of you.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But it's almost like in boxing used to be. Not now, because Terence Crawford came out of Omaha and it changed the whole perception of the Midwest. But it used to be that there'd be some kid out of the Midwest, not a lot of talent in his area or competition in his gym. He's a good prospect. He did okay in the amateurs locally, and they start building him up. He's 20, he's 25. And. Oh, and eventually he's got to go to the east coast, to the west coast for a real fight. And then he gets killed. Right. Like he gets beaten easily because. And the Patriots were almost like that in football.

[B]

They got.

[A]

They built up against a super soft schedule. They did win one important game when they needed to, a home game. And then they faced the best team in football, and it was not competitive.

[B]

What was the last super bowl that deemed to be as lopsided as this one was? You think that you could remember?

[A]

I mean, I know the one. The lopsided super bowl that comes to mind for me, I'd rather forget that was the Giants and the Ravens. Where the Giants get there with Kerry Collins and the Ravens. As a Giants fan, I really would have preferred not to make the Super Bowl. In retrospect, I don't like it could have been better just to have won.

[B]

Because in your mind, you had no. You felt like you had no chance of winning.

[A]

Oh, going in, I thought they could win, but coming out, I'm like, stop the fight.

[B]

This one for me, I was a young kid. I remember San Fran won. What was it, 89 or. No, 90. 90. They beat Denver 55 to 10. Oh, those.

[A]

Those Niners teams were.

[B]

I. I remember that because back then, you know, Tecmo bowl was out and of course, and it seemed like everybody on my street was San Francisco 49ers fans, more so because of the starter jacket.

[A]

Back then, they used to say super bowl would be lopsided. The Niners did the same thing to the Bengals. I remember. The most glaring example is the team that to this day is synonymous with greatest team of all time, whether or not it's true, is the 85 bears. 85 bears stopped the Patriots that year. Like they stopped them. The 85 Bears is to this day, if you say it like there's certain teams, you say the 72 win Bulls. They're known by the wins more than the year, I think. Right. If you said the 27 Yankees, because they were. Or the 85 Bears, whether or not they're actually the greatest teams ever. They're branded that way because of what they did in the championship too. 98 Yankees for me, if you look at that World Series, 125 wins altogether. They destroy the Padres in the World Series, but the Bears were. The super bowl used to be that way. It used to be a lopsided game.

[B]

But it was some bright spots in the game. Look, you, Kenneth Walker was a monster.

[A]

Deserve the mvp.

[B]

We didn't even talk about him at all. Like, we picked like star would be born. We picked jscn, Sam Darnold. We talked about Gonzalez, who had a.

[A]

Hell of a game, by the way. Can we say really the MVP on the field if it goes to best play like there's some finals. LeBron didn't get MVP because his team lost, but come on, he was the mvp.

[B]

It's Gonzalez.

[A]

You have an argument for Christian Gonzalez. Yeah, he's a beast.

[B]

He'll be there a long time. They always find that guy. Yeah, that they. They do a. They do a great job of talent evaluating. But yeah, the real. The real, real, real star of the night was Bad Bunny. That's who was the star.

[A]

Wait, hold on, hold on. Before we get to. You want to go right to the halftime show?

[B]

I'm just telling you. You see me playing my salsa coming here this morning, playing the Bunny.

[A]

Every mix, every mix I make, I sneak a Bad Bunny song or two into the mix.

[B]

Say what you want. I don't care if you couldn't understand what he was saying or not. You felt it. Yeah. Feel that, that vibe. He had it going.

[A]

It's a good show. I never really care about the Super super bowl halftime show.

[B]

I do.

[A]

I know a lot of people do. I don't like.

[B]

It's ridiculous, man. I don't. Why not? I can't just watch.

[A]

It's fine. I'll watch it. Oh, it's a good show.

[B]

I don't care.

[A]

I'm there for the game. I don't need to see a show.

[B]

The one gang that you have to watch the halftime show. Yes. Is the Super Bowl.

[A]

I know I do. I have to watch it. It's. Look, the super bowl is the last shared experience in America in the sense I say, as always, say everyone. In the sense that you know that everyone's seeing the same thing you are at the same time you're seeing it. Nothing else is like that. So the halftime show is like a big stage and I get it. So you have to watch it. People talk about it. I just.

[B]

But see, I think here's what. There's been a lot of controversy about the halftime show and who they pick.

[A]

Yeah. And obviously, by the way, people want to politicize anything because it is the idea. Because it's in Spanish. They don't like it.

[B]

Who cares? I guess. But. But you have to understand the people that's making the choice to pick the. They're trying to pick the best artists and all. The biggest artist and the biggest artist.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he's the biggest artist included. In terms of. First of all, I can't pick a guy that's going to. Is going to be unprofessional with everything because it's a big production. This is a huge production.

[A]

And all that required coordination. He's climbing up stuff and things are happening.

[B]

Yeah, the. The. The stage presence. It was almost like he was at a. A bodega, at a bar. He was in a. In the community. It was. It was unbelievable. Like one of the best halftime performances I've ever seen. And then you have the. Just the energy to feel he made you want to get up and.

[A]

No. And I think there is something significant to the fact that with what's going on in our country right now, where the president is obviously using a quasi legal police force or paramilitary force to punish his political enemies and to make a show of. Of, you know, kind of brutally deporting people, and they are almost exclusively Spanish speaking. There is something to the fact that the super bowl halftime show dudes singing in Spanish, that's unavoidable. And people, you know, stupid people had a reaction to it, a bad reaction to it. And everyone else was like, stop. It's fine.

[B]

Yeah, look, he's the biggest star in the world, so. Or one of the. If not the. I think he might be d. Yeah, right now.

[A]

It might be.

[B]

It was a great. It was a great night. And shout out to my colleagues again, Jaebo and Nigel and Tony and their team, who works with Bad Bunny. Bad Bunny has a great manager, Noah, who is great. They built an unbelievable business there. So I thought it was great. It was super dope.

[A]

Well, the holidays have come and gone.

[B]

Once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift. Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next Year. What do you have to lose? Give it a [e-mail] Switch limited time.

[A]

50% off regular price for new customers. Upfront payment required $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms. Oh, here's another like off the field subject that I haven't heard anyone talk about. AD in dird. He's the ad. They call him the. That's the defensive coordinator for the Seahawks. You didn't know that, did you? Or maybe you did.

[B]

He did a great job, but a.

[A]

Lot of people don't. And that's because McDonald, because the head coach is scheming everything and calling plays and everything. And so Clint Kubiak, you know, famous name, famous family and you know, brilliant offensive guy, gets a head coaching job and McDonald gets all the credit for the great defense and that's sure he should. But Durd is a guy who is installing the plays and all that kind of stuff and is very well respected. By the way, British born, right? Guy speaks with a British accent. No one knows this guy. It feels like he was not a story that was widely covered. But it's a defensive coordinator of a great. That defense is a. I don't think I'm going to remember this defense like I remember that Ravens defense I mentioned or that Bucks defense that won the super bowl against the Raiders and what was that, 02 or whatever that was. But it was at all three levels. They have athletes at their, their scheme is exceptional. The play calling is exceptional. There's no real weak link. You know that that's a great defense. And no one talks about Dird at all. Basically.

[B]

Yeah, we. Well, we talked. That defense has been like that all year. We went to the game here. Yeah, we were raving about the defense then. Dude.

[A]

We saw a couple. I thought the Texans had the best defense in the league this year. I thought that was one of the best defenses I've ever seen. We were at that game with the Rams. Played some. They did hella fi defenses.

[B]

They did. No, the Texans and the Seahawks definitely had the, the, the best defenses all year, but they. But dirt. Look, I think you need a guy like Durd on every team to be successful. Yeah. Like you need that guy. Yeah. You may not know him, but he's the genius behind our success. Yeah. A funny thing happened yesterday. You probably didn't see this. You know, you know the comedian Desi Banks. So every Super Bowl. The super bowl halftime show. He goes up to people and try to explain to them what the artist is talking about in a song. And he's not. He's saying anything. So yesterday, obviously, he didn't know what. What Bad Bunny was saying. So he's just making up stuff. And I saw it online. I was crying, laughing, like, this guy is literally off his rocker, man. But, yeah, I just thought that was. You gotta see. I gotta show you the clip. I just thought that was hilarious.

[A]

That's great. It's like Kenny Maine once was interviewing Pacquiao and Marquez before one of their fights, and he tried to get them to work their differences out without violence. He's like, can we talk this out? Yeah. Explaining what Bad Bunny's saying. Doesn't understand a word of it, but.

[B]

How he was doing it, and he was just talking to different people, and he was basically saying that this is what it meant. And I guarantee you it was totally off for sure. But that's the humor in it.

[A]

What else was it? Drake May. Drake May is going to be fine.

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

He got sacked more than anyone. At one point, it was tied with Joe Burrow. And then I believe he set the record. And through the playoffs, the 20 took 20 sacks through the playoffs. But remember, Joe Burrow, didn't you know, he's hurt. His first year gets to the Super Bowl. His second year has not been back since. There is no guarantee. Just because you have an excellent young quarterback and an excellent coach that you even get back.

[B]

It's tough to get back. It is so tough to get back. And by the way, it's the same thing in any sport. I think OKC is kind of feeling that now. Like, it's going to be very tough.

[A]

Looks like, oh, my God, it's a dynasty. It's gonna reign for years and years. And it's like, you might not even make it back.

[B]

And. And here's the thing about getting back there. Not even just winning. Get back. Getting. Getting back there. When you go to the finals, you play until June, right? Yeah. Let's say you play Father's Day. Normally the finals, Game seven is on Father's Day. After that, you take maybe like two weeks off. Then here comes free agency. When we actually had free agency, we don't have free agency anymore like that. But when we had free agency for those of you that were free agents, you have that. Then you may have. Depending on what player you are, you may have your. All of your deliverables for your marketing sponsors, because people think Like, I want all these deals.

[A]

You got work to do.

[B]

But they don't realize that each brand that you have become a partner with, they want three to four to maybe even seven days in the summer. Right. To get things done for your deliverables. Because they can't get you all year due to your schedule. So that puts you the second week of July. Then you have summer league coming up where most veterans, they come in, like, the second week, they pick a week, they come the first week, they come the second week. You notice something, Max, I haven't even talked about taking your family on a vacation yet. You haven't done that yet. That you still have to do. Then you go back into, okay, now I gotta get my mind wrapped around.

[A]

And by the way, when you say family on vacation, if an NBA player or an NFL player has young kids, it's. I don't care how much help you have. Cause you're rich.

[B]

No, you probably have to.

[A]

There's a difference between a vacation and a trip.

[B]

And a trip, yes.

[A]

When kids are of a certain age, understands this. When you go somewhere, you're on a.

[B]

Trip, you're on a trip.

[A]

Now, it's not for LeBron James or someone because they're so wealthy. I get it. But still, when you are an active parent, when you're involved with your kids, I don't care how much it is a trip.

[B]

No, it's still a trip. If you're working, no matter how much help you have, when you have little kids, it's still a trip. But then you get back into, okay, let me start back thinking about working out, then actually working out. Then you go into training camp, and then to do this all over again another year.

[A]

That's what's nuts about LeBron going 23 years like that. Because from year one, it's like this.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's the regular season. You got Max. You got to count whether it's LeBron, whether it's Steph, whether it's Draymond, Olympics, playoffs, finals, everything. And then we didn't even talk about the Olympics.

[A]

Right.

[B]

When you think about the toll that it takes to. On a player's body. Because I don't know if fans look at it that way. I don't know if you guys look at it that way, where it's like, okay, yeah, they play the season, but let's really dive into the actual season. And then how many days do you actually get to yourself?

[A]

By the way, anyone listening to this, I understand it could sound tone deaf, right? Because it's not, you know, because you got. You're working with a jackhammer and not in the NBA. It's like, come on, stop. That's not real work. But all I'll say is this. People experience their lives subjectively. You know, even if you look at an NBA player, they're. They're famous and they're rich and they're playing a game instead of, like, actually having a job and they have a career instead of a job, meaning there's a future. And it's not just the same thing every day, we get. I understand all that, and I do, too. You're right. If you're sitting there going, come on, man, I'll trade my life for that, I get that. But still, the subjective experience, the personal experience, for the person going through that is like, the body can only take so much, right? They're it. And. And even though it is a game, they're operating on such a high and intense level. And against all the other best, objectively, the best athletes in the world, out of 8 billion people here are the 450 best, you know, or among the 450 of the 2 or 3,000 best athletes in the world that they're competing against all the time. It's a lot. It takes a toll. There's no two ways about it, of course.

[B]

But what you just said made a lot of sense. And I know people, they say the same thing about my job. Oh, anybody could do that job, which is why anybody try to do my job. But the reality of it is, no.

[A]

It'S a hard job to do, but they would just rather live your life than their life. Because there are things that go along with being able to do something difficult or that very few people can do at a certain level that are perks of that life. That, of course, people would prefer than their own lives a lot of the time.

[B]

Yeah, but those are two separate things, right? Because you. The optics of the job, being a professional athlete, it's like, oh, man, you shouldn't be complaining about that. You play football for a living or.

[A]

You play basketball for football, you can complain. Basketball is where people are like, come on, stop.

[B]

Yeah, but basketball, you can. You, you can complain, too, because again, you're talking about 82 games. Sometimes you play four games and five nights.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Sure. That's, you know, that's difficult. Very difficult. Now you say, well, they got all the treatment and you have this or that. We're not saying that. But what I am saying is, over time, one year is fine. But imagine going to four, five straight finals. Going to the finals. Five out of seven years. I mean, in LeBron's case, he went to the finals eight straight years.

[A]

But also people listening to you. Some people are listening to this right now, thinking, come on, Rich, that's out of touch. Blah, blah, blah, blah. You're someone who came from nothing, who lived through actually tough years, and now are experiencing this. And from your vantage point, from your total life experience, it's not that you don't know hardship, it's that you have been exposed to that. And yet you are still saying what is happening, even in this rarefied air. It takes a lot of work and is very difficult.

[B]

Yes, I am definitely qualified to speak about it because it's not contrary to what people may believe. And I think people think that I just stand around next to athletes all day and hang out.

[A]

But yeah, that's bullshit. Cause half the time he's playing golf.

[B]

I had a hard upbringing, you know, relative in terms of. It was.

[A]

You would think, read his book Lucky Me.

[B]

No, but you'll.

[A]

You'll.

[B]

You would get all that in there. But people, I. I see people talk about. When we talk about different things like having shoes and. And having certain clothes, remembering this or that. People attribute that to, oh, you couldn't have had a hard life if you. If you had those things, which goes into the mentality of how low the bar was set.

[A]

Especially if you're young, black, and not an athlete.

[B]

Yes, right. Yes.

[A]

Because the assumption is, oh, okay, it must be an athlete or a rapper. And if you're neither one of those things, then you must have been lucky. Maybe you shouldn't have called your book Lucky Me.

[B]

Yeah, I was being very sarcastic because, yeah, I was lucky because to not have a mom there with you and to, you know, lose my dad and to just all the stuff that I went through anyway growing up and to still make it on the other side.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

To be in behind the walls of this business and see what the athlete has to go through. Not only just from a plan perspective, but also like, they can't say no. They're in position where if they ever say no, it's like the world is ending. Imagine that. Imagine everybody around you expects you to say yes all the time.

[A]

What was it, Juicy J who said, wanna know who's really real? Start telling. We'll call it People. No. Yeah, right.

[B]

Like, hard man. That's hard. That's true. But the point I was getting to was when you think about just. Again, just climbing back up that ladder, making it back to having the opportunity to win a championship. It's a tough road. It is a tough road. And so yes, Drake May is going to be okay. But like you said, I don't know how many times you get back to.

[A]

The super bowl, by the way, I want to before we move on because I actually do want to get into a little NBA stuff. I want to talk about Sam Darnold for a second because the idea going, you know, a lot of times we come up with these kind of in this business, especially what I do and have done for a living for almost 30 years, you come up, you see the world in these big broad categories. Like that's very good for the media if you're in the take business. Here's my take. And famously, there's a thing about a fox or a hedgehog. A fox sees a lot of nuances and different solutions and the hedgehog sees one big thing. And in this business pays to be the hedgehog. See one big thing. And so when we talk about or when I talk about this super bowl, it's almost like a referendum on Sam Darnold. We're going to find out, right? So here are the big things I see. We're going to head into the Super Bowl. There's no star, but a star will emerge from the Super Bowl. Did it like Kenneth Walker iii, MVP of the Super Bowl? Is he now a star? Is that the signature star of this Super Bowl? I'm not sure about that. So the big broad category that you think you're going to find some evidence here, we have evidence that doesn't neatly fit into that category to prove that big point or Sam Darnold to be a referendum on Sam Darnold? Can you win a Super bowl with Sam Darnold? And since the idea implicitly is you can only win a Super bowl with an elite quarterback. Is Sam Darnold an elite quarterback? Well, what we saw in this game is he was shaky early, could have thrown anywhere between two and four picks, I thought got a little lucky. But as the game went on, settled down, made the responsible choices quarterback. Well, had some excellent plays with his legs and with his arm and with both and emerged as a Super bowl winner. But not the MVP and not exactly a superstar. Right. So is this evidence that we're that we got from this super bowl an outlier? Is this super bowl an outlier that doesn't fit neatly into the big take but is really like the exception that proves the rule? Or can we, as time goes on, is this going to continue to happen in the super bowl, where we see now a new trend. It's hard to say, but it was not a Super bowl with a kind of definitive, satisfying answer. On Sam Darnold, for example, you know that you can win a Super bowl with him, obviously, but do you need a ton around? Like, do you need more around him than other quarterbacks? Because they had a great overall team, from the coaching, offensive and defensive coaching, to the personnel, all three levels of the defense. Everything you could want on offense is so. So, like. So, like, we don't.

[B]

We.

[A]

I don't really have answers on Darnold coming out of that super bowl other than I know now you can win a Super bowl with him. Right? But who's the star? Christian Gonzalez, to me, might be the biggest star that emerged from the game and on the losing team. I don't know. It's like, it's. It just reminded me that as much as in this take business, we have these big ideas and this game is going to prove it one way or another. I feel like I came out of that game not knowing so much more about everything.

[B]

I think what you're describing is exactly what our issue is in sports. Everyone wants to star, and everyone looks past the champion. I'd much rather be. I don't care what you say about Sam Darnold. Sam Darnold is a Super bowl champion. As the starting quarterback for the Seahawks, he is that. So keep your star, keep your stats, keep your magazine covers and all the things that you would want to be the franchise guy. You know, the issue we have in sports, I hear this all the time. It's like, oh, you know, we had to, you know, this team got to hurry up and do something, because if they don't, they're going to lose this player. Because this player wants to win a championship. You mean, has he won a championship because we don't have to hurry up and do anything had he not. Why am I rushing for somebody that hasn't won. What window you talking about? To keep this player because he wants to win the champion. You rush for those that have already won. There's no example to say, oh, he won a championship, so we better hurry up because the window's closing for him to win another championship. Because he shows us how to win a championship. Giannis won, so you should rush for Giannis. Giannis is rush worthy.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. But. But you can't rush for somebody that's never won.

[A]

Well, here, look.

[B]

Or never even got close to winning, okay?

[A]

Like, as Patrick Ewing got Older with the Knicks.

[B]

He went to the finals.

[A]

He did, but he hadn't won. And I think there was a sense of urgency, like, let's get this guy enough help.

[B]

But he went to the finals is what I'm saying.

[A]

Oh, excuse me. I hear your point. I like your point. But let me push back. There was a fella, goes by the name, I don't know if you're familiar, LeBron James.

[B]

Yes. Who?

[A]

They weren't. They wouldn't trade J.J. hickson for Amar' E Stoudemire. And at a certain point, he and his very astute representatives around him thought, well, they're never going to give. He had not been a champion yet. They're never going to give me what I need. I gotta go.

[B]

Yeah, but Max, they should have rushed. I got you. Did you forget 2007?

[A]

Oh, he got there.

[B]

This is my point.

[A]

Oh, as long as you get to the. To the final round.

[B]

Yes. You shown that you can actually get there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it's worthy of that.

[A]

So Drake may. In five or six years, if he's like, I. If they don't get back, they should have some urgency.

[B]

Got there.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Even. Even getting to the. Even getting to the conference championship.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But what I'm saying, I hear a lot.

[A]

You need to see a playoff winner, a guy who advances.

[B]

I hear a lot of conversation about a talent and us having this championship window, but I'm like, well, that's kind of misleading because this guy's never got close to winning. So it's not just about if a guy's never got close to winning, all things are on the table.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Not just everything but him.

[A]

You know, in a way, though, it's. It's a noble thing that players want the championship and that fans create the demand for the players to want the championship and that the networks and the leagues promote the demand that the fans have for the players to win a championship as a measure of their greatness and everything. Because that all comes from the right place, which is a championship. Shows that you're a team player, that you're willing to make sacrifices and whatever, all those things. But then it gets to a point where players try to reverse engineer their greatness. By that, I mean, they look and say, oh, if I don't win a championship, you won't recognize my ability. So kd, for example, to me, KD and the warriors got together at a certain point and said, we can't get by LeBron. Because the warriors really couldn't. They could only do it when Kyrie and Kevin Love got hurt. And, and, And KD is like, yeah, I can't do it either.

[B]

No, that's not how that works, Max.

[A]

If we join forces.

[B]

That's not how that works.

[A]

Then we can beat LeBron.

[B]

That is not how that works.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

But here's how it works.

[A]

KD put himself in a position R because his extraordinary talent was being underrated by many because he didn't have the rings, his historical standing, that he reverse engineered it.

[B]

He.

[A]

He parachuted in to a 73 win team that came a play away from winning the title. And if you add kd, or even if it was Paul George or someone like that who's not quite KD to a 73 win team without taking away too much of that team to add kd, there's no way they can't win. That's reverse engineering. That's why he doesn't get the same credit from guys like me for those championships that LeBron does with.

[B]

Why should Kevin Durant care to get credit from Max Kellerman?

[A]

I don't know, but apparently he does.

[B]

Yeah. Are you crazy? Listen, what do you want? This is what I don't understand. And all these guys, oh, I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have done. You wouldn't have done it because you didn't have the opportunity to do it. The stars align. The man was a free agent. They had the ability to get him. What happens is when you coming off of losing a championship, right, you just lost. It is hot off the stove. The loss is hot right on the plate. You're like, man, we gotta get back and we gotta do whatever we can to get back. So you wanna get the best asset that helps you get there.

[A]

But, Rich, would you. I get it, but would you. Okay, I've been in these rooms.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I've been in these rooms where the team has just lost the championship. You're not thinking about what somebody did in the past 20 years, and you're not thinking about any of that. You know what you're thinking about? How do we improve? How do we get the best player? And this idea, this idea that, oh, the best players shouldn't team up. I watch all these older players talk about these things yet. And still, if you go back and look at the teams they won a championship with, the 2008 Boston Celtics went and got Kevin Durant, I mean, Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.

[A]

A lot of people blame Paul, but you're looking at it from the who you blame. You're Looking at it from the team point of view, I agree the team should do everything in a team. Well, the Boston Celtics put together a big three.

[B]

Who are you blaming, though? I'm saying, what about the.

[A]

Okay, I'm not blaming the players in that case because they were traded by a very smart GM in Boston whose job it is to make the team as good as possible.

[B]

You can't blame the players in no case.

[A]

But in KD's case, it's different.

[B]

And by the way, Rich, what about the 97?

[A]

He's one of the greatest players of all time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I probably wouldn't be saying that if he didn't have rings. So his decision was proven correct because in the long run, the details will fade and all people will remember is Finals mvp.

[B]

Losing team.

[A]

This is what I'm. No, not a losing team. What I'm saying is in the case of KD, people were mad at LeBron.

[B]

And people want to say, oh, you just saying that because LeBron. No, no, no.

[A]

People were mad at LeBron for putting together or being a part of a kind of put together big three in Miami.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that team. And if you. Because at that point, if you put three players together that good, hard for them to not win a championship or two. And they did. They won two. They went four finals, won two. KD was that 2.0 KD, who's one of the best players ever, right? What, what is the weakness in his game? He's an. He's like the perfect basketball player. KD got parachuted into a 73 win team that was unfortunate not to already win the title without losing hardly anything off that team. They what? They turned Harrison Barnes into Kevin Durant. It is impossible at that point.

[B]

Kudos to them.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not. You're taking from the team point of view. I'm saying from KD's point of view, it is impossible to not win a championship at that point. They're going to crush everyone, which they did. Now, I credit kd.

[B]

He.

[A]

And here's the irony, I give him credit for making a decision that probably cost him championships, because at least he tried. He said when he was done with the warriors, he looked and said, I'm going to go to the Brooklyn Nets and win a championship starting from scratch. That's pretty incredible that he did that.

[B]

Why would I sit here?

[A]

Didn't work, but it was incredible.

[B]

You know what? No, that's not incredible. That's not incredible. And I can guarantee you. I can't guarantee you because I Did he?

[A]

Regrets?

[B]

Not him. No. But I would imagine if people stop caring about what people's going to think because it don't matter. It don't matter. People are going to have something to say about you whether you do something.

[A]

Perfectly right or all that doesn't cover this case though.

[B]

It does because. Because at the end of the day.

[A]

You'Re applying a rule broadly to a specific example where it doesn't apply.

[B]

Sports.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why do I care what you think? I'm making the best decision for me.

[A]

Well, I mean, if you didn't care whether people think, you wouldn't have burner accounts and stuff like that.

[B]

You do care. Listen, the goal is to win. So if I have the opportunity to go to.

[A]

Why is the goal to win?

[B]

Well, because we're playing a game.

[A]

But if you're, if you're an all time great player, the goal to win is because it verifies something about your greatness. That's why players, teams, fans, networks and leagues are interested in championships.

[B]

Why is there this misconception that players win by themselves? Nobody has ever won by themselves.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Okay, what do you rank when. When the Bulls got Rodman, no doubt. Cu, Coke Harper.

[A]

Yeah, I was thinking at the time, like there's no way they can lose. Right.

[B]

Okay, so what about when Mark Aguirre went to the Detroit Pistons?

[A]

That was a great move by the Pistons, but it is not. None of neither of those examples is KD on it. If you take.

[B]

Damn lie.

[A]

Hold on, hold on.

[B]

Let me tell you something.

[A]

Set the record for wins in a season and beating Kevin Durant, if you ask, that's rigging it.

[B]

If you ask anybody on that Detroit Pistons team, from Joe Dumars to Isaiah.

[A]

Thomas, we got Aguirre.

[B]

How did they fill in that locker room?

[A]

Pretty good.

[B]

Okay, what about when Worthy went to the Lakers in the draft?

[A]

They drafted him. That's good. Gming. That's not Worthy's decision.

[B]

All I'm saying is.

[A]

Are you, Are you talking about from the team's point of view or the player's point of view?

[B]

I'm talking about from a holistic point of view.

[A]

I'm talking about the player's point of view.

[B]

Yes, but here's what I'm saying. It takes so much to win.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

Right. You can be. And let's talk to some of the players that were the top players on their team and I know we gotta go, but they were the top players on their team and they struggled. The reason why Kevin Garnett was so relieved to get to Boston is because he. And when he did that interview with John Thompson and he said with Coach Thompson, may he rest in peace, he said to Coach Thompson, I'm tired. I'm just tired. And he shedded real tears because that man is a warrior. Kevin Garnett. And all he tried to do was appease other people's opinions and do it on his own. And stay with.

[A]

I'm not disagreeing with any of that.

[B]

But here's what I'm saying though.

[A]

Max it.

[B]

Regardless whether a player is choosing or whether a team is drafting, it takes all of that.

[A]

Okay, wait, you're saying something that is true and we agree with that. It takes much more than people even realize to win a championship.

[B]

Yeah. More than just scoring 35 a night.

[A]

Stack the deck. To win a championship, you have to be. You have to have the kind of team most years where you look on paper, at least in retrospect, and go, man, that was an unfair advantage. That team was so good in order. It's hard to win.

[B]

But hold up. But not just, not just a roster. You have to stack the deck in meta time.

[A]

I got it.

[B]

Ownership in analytics understood all of that.

[A]

Understood. Okay, so we're on the same page.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Here's where we. We split and. And maybe we do, maybe we don't. We'll see if you agree after this. Although I think it'll be hard for you to publicly agree with this even if you do. There's. Yes, that is all true. The point in winning a championship, especially if you're one of the two best players on the team, is that it demonstrates something else about you that when by the time you get to the finals or the conference finals some years and if you're in the Western Conference, especially in the NBA, you are facing another super loaded team. Right. That's also got ridiculous unfair advantages when you look at them on paper. But there's something about you that can figure out a way to win. Where in so doing, you and the. Because you say big threes don't really exist. You're right. It's really big twos where you and your number one crime partner. Yes, you have a ton of stuff around you, so does the other team are so great that that will be expressed ultimately in the championship. The reason I say K in KD's case, one of my favorite players, by the way, I'm not picking on him because I don't like him or something, but I'm telling you how I feel about it and how I think about it. In KD's case, the championships are not like, for example, LeBron's championship in Cleveland is. Because instead of demonstrating the thing that I just said, he entered a situation where that team is now so much better, probably, than any team ever, that there's no way for that, if they're healthy, for them to lose. They can't lose that cape. Did LeBron James and the Cavs, who had an excellent team that year, have a shot against that warriors team? Was there a chance in hell they could beat that?

[B]

Yeah, but here's the thing.

[A]

Do you agree, yes or no, that they had a chance in hell or they did not?

[B]

I do think they had a chance, yes.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I do think they had the chance because. Because really? Yes. Really?

[A]

Because they got stomped out.

[B]

Yeah. But in a series, In a series, this series is a lot closer than the end result of whether it was 4:1 or 4:0. Because if you win, there's momentum swings in series. If you win Game one versus the Charge Call or whatever the case may be, if it's a tie, series one one, going into Game three, now, that team steals home. There's nothing.

[A]

I hear you normally, but not again, Rich. They had Steph and KD and Klay and Dre. It was over.

[B]

Listen, I'm not that person. I'm not the type of person to be like, oh, just because you had names. No, Golden State warriors won that series. Fairs.

[A]

Okay, timeout.

[B]

Timeout.

[A]

In the year before, LeBron James, in one of the greatest games and moments and comebacks in the history of American team sports, at the peak of his powers, give or take, with Kyrie Irving. And Kevin Love, was fortunate that Draymond Green lost his cool and got suspended, that they were able to come back.

[B]

And they disagree with that, too.

[A]

Strike that from the record. I don't even.

[B]

That's people. But here's what I'm saying. That comment that you guys make, that's people trying to discredit.

[A]

I agree. But by the way, LeBron goaded him into making that mistake, so that's part of the game. I'm with you. My point is, it took everything and then some to barely overcome that team the year before. And then they added Kevin Durant. It's over. There's nothing you can do.

[B]

There's. Let me. Let me tell you something.

[A]

Unless you added, you know, Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant, there's nothing you could do.

[B]

There's something you could do. You can come back the next year and get better. And this is what I try to.

[A]

Explain as a franchiser, this is what.

[B]

I try to explain to you, okay? They came back from 31 and won. They went and got Kevin Durant and won. Oh, we need to get better to come back and combat what they did. Oh, we can't. Why? Because we don't have the capabilities to. That's it. That's the ball game.

[A]

Okay, but you're talking again about the point of view of the franchise. Stay with kd. Yeah, but kd. But with the evaluation of kd, KD overall skills, maybe the best player ever, right? Both sides of the package, maybe the best player ever. But he is not considered by almost anyone the greatest player ever. Because the way you prove greatness is through leading a team to a championship. But because he parachuted into the championship and put them in parachute, anything could have happened. So far over the top. They couldn't lose.

[B]

That team started with 0, 0 win column loss just like everybody else. Anything could have happened. And if something would have happened that prevented them, you guys would be saying different. That's where commentators and analysts and pundits differ from experts. That's the difference. Because anything could happen. It's an 82 game regular season.

[A]

You know what happened. And there's a playoff two consecutive years. They stomped out everybody. Okay, great. That's what happen.

[B]

Yes, but they, and then, you know.

[A]

When they didn't stop at everyone, when KD got hurt. Now he's not available. Now you lose. It's pretty simple, right? KD unbeatable team.

[B]

But that just happened in year three versus happening year one. And you don't wish it happened at all. But the point I'm trying to make.

[A]

Is, as Will Ferrell said in Anchorman, agree to disagree.

[B]

We agree to disagree. Yeah, but at the end of the day, again, you have to be able to continue to get, create flexibility that you can always get better. I told you what Joe Dumars told me in 2008 after he had been to so many conference finals. You have to have the mechanism to get better. And here's the other thing. Most times, most agents also, they're not looking at team. This player, oh, should this guy be in a position to win a championship? So I'm just going to sign him to a five year deal. So I lock the player in for the number versus doing what's right for the player and actually evaluating the team. If I have a star guy, a real guy, and it's next to a team that is not so real and they don't have no way to Becoming real. And this guy actually cares about winning and not caring about just the money. I'm not signing a long term deal like that. I'm not doing it. And I know most people in my position would say the opposite, and they've done the opposite a thousand different times. But that's where you have to differentiate yourself.

[A]

If you added a prime LeBron James to this Thunder team, who would win the championship?

[B]

Now, wait a minute.

[A]

I'm just curious. If you added prime, if you added a prime LeBron James to this Thunder team, who would win the championship? And would anyone else have a chance?

[B]

They would be favored. Consider no injury, so on and so forth.

[A]

You and I both know they would stop. But.

[B]

No, but that's. That's discrediting what happened. I'm not going to discredit Kevin Durant for making a smart choice. He made the same choice you would make with your money. Sure. Are you going to invest your money?

[A]

We're talking about two different things.

[B]

Losing account or losing high risk.

[A]

You don't want to punish kd. You don't want to punish KD in any way for making a smart choice. No, My point is I wouldn't punish.

[B]

Nobody for making a smart choice, whether.

[A]

Or not you want to. In an objective, as objective as possible evaluation of his greatness, as great as he is, he doesn't get the same kind of credit for those championships as LeBron does for 2016.

[B]

Well, you're wrong.

[A]

All right, listen, we're going to go on for.

[B]

Yeah, this game is over.

[A]

Game over.

[B]

Game over. Game over.

[A]

You know what we're going to do for Wednesday because we got sidetracked there. I am going to tell people Wednesday. Why tanking, though it is a problem in the NBA and is happening right now, this year is actually not an issue. How's that for Ateez?

[B]

There's no such. I don't use the word tanking as it pertains to NBA. I'm a partner of the NBA. I don't use the word tank.

[A]

This is just a tease. We don't have to get sidetracked on this. Just a tease.

[B]

I'm just telling you because now, you know, you see, we can go for another hour on these topics.

[A]

Rich, we're just teasing the next show.

[B]

I know, but you're an optic guy. Yeah. And so the optics of coming back from three one could never be trumped by anything because it's the.

[A]

Oh, you're back on LeBron still.

[B]

No, I'm just telling you.

[A]

I'm talking about I'm looking forward. I thought it was game over, but.

[B]

Yeah, I went to overtime a little bit. We had extra time in the basketball game.

[A]

No double O. T, though.

[B]

I think for that topic that you're talking about, you're going to talk about it in a way, and I'm going to give you my take on it from what I don't believe is taking, but it should be discussed for the viewers.

[A]

And now that we said we're going to do it, we got to do it on our website.

[B]

We got to do it. But also we would ask for you guys to give us some topics or some talking points that you want to get some clarity on or discuss.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Let's do a mailbag. Everyone does a mailbag. Let's do a mailbag.

[B]

We could do a mailbag. Yes. Send some topics in that you want us to discuss. We'll answer some of those questions. But this was good today, Max, on a Monday, for us to have energy in that fight. Yeah, yeah. The super bowl was a snoozer. Yeah.

[A]

But it still gave us some.

[B]

Yeah, but to come in and to still have this energy.

[A]

Yeah, we're getting there.

[B]

We're getting there little by little. Yeah, but I disagree with you and I would never agree with you.

[A]

See, now we're at the triple ot.

[B]

Okay, let's go. Let's get out of here.

[A]

Game over.

[B]

Game over.

[A]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul.

[B]

Lock the doors. Please subscribe.

[A]

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