The Lakers' Struggles, James Harden's Hardships in Cleveland, and More! | Game Over

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Lakers' Struggles, James Harden's Hardships in Cleveland, and More!"

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul
Host: The Ringer
Date: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Game Over dives deep into the current state of the NBA playoffs: analyzing the Lakers' issues, the impact of LeBron’s leadership and Austin Reaves’ performance, Oklahoma City’s (OKC) playoff success, and the ongoing struggles of James Harden in Cleveland. Max and Rich also field listener voicemails/emails, riff on NBA history, and discuss the business and culture of basketball, all with the signature candid and irreverent tone that defines their show.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Warm-Up: Family Reunions and Culture

[01:19–14:43]

• The episode starts with a lively discussion about family reunions, cultural differences, and personal anecdotes (Rich’s massive family events versus Max’s lack of reunions).
  • Rich Paul: “My grandma Ruth Martin was the matriarch. Everybody got in line... She was a gangster.” (03:26)
  • Funny stories of family “dues,” organizing, and the fading art of reunions in modern times.
  • Max: “We are all much more closely related than we think.” (14:33)
• Ends with a philosophical note about ancestry and the “family tree math” connecting everyone.

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2. Lakers vs. Thunder: Recap and Analysis

[15:01–33:46]

LeBron’s Heroics Amid Team Struggles

• Max: “LeBron James was the best player on either team last night, which means everyone else ought to be ashamed of themselves. The man is 64 years old, Max.” (16:53)
  • LeBron’s age-defying brilliance contrasted with the team’s inconsistency.
  • LeBron’s true greatness is “making a team work together and elevating the players around him.”

The Austin Reaves Dilemma

• Max: Reaves’ struggle to elevate the second unit, lack of cohesion: “It looked like the Keystone Cops. There was no cohesion. He was unable to make the group better.” (18:56)
• Rich: “Anytime a player comes back from an injury... you have this feeling of responsibility to step up.” (20:12)

Chemistry, Depth, and OKC’s Advantage

• OKC’s deep, athletic roster and effective rotations are too much for LA’s thin and injury-hampered lineup.
  • Rich: “This just comes down to stables. There’s just more horses in the stable of the Thunder.” (20:12)
• Importance of perfection for LA: “The Lakers almost have to play a perfect game in order to just be in striking distance. Not to win. Just to be in striking distance.” (22:38)

The Luka (Doncic) Question

• Uncertainty around Luka’s potential return.
  • Rich: “If the soft tissue injury is what they say… I don't think you'll see him.” (28:24)
  • Impact on team chemistry if he does return.

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3. Spotlight: Chet Holmgren’s Moment for OKC

[30:34–33:46]

• Chet Holmgren’s role and pressure as the rising star, particularly with Jalen Williams not fully available.
  • Max: “If you’re Chet, this is what you want. You want that opportunity.” (31:46)
  • The “moment of truth” for young impact players: opportunities to shape a legacy.

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4. James Harden & The Analytics Debate

[33:48–44:50]

Harden’s Fit and Playoff Pressure in Cleveland

• Max: “It breaks my heart… He deserves better, but he’s doing it to himself.”
• Critique of Harden’s turnover-heavy, high-pressure performances: “You never want to believe a dude is built in a way that just consistently chokes under pressure.” (43:07)
• Discussion of Cleveland’s decision to trade for Harden instead of keeping Darius Garland, with Rich noting his candid bias as Garland's agent.

Did Analytics Ruin James Harden’s Championship Window?

• Rich: “Analytics really hurt him… If you gave him a different infrastructure, in that prime years… I think he gets to the finals and has a chance to win.” (34:13)
• Counterpoint by Max: Analytics allowed Harden’s Rockets to push the legendary Warriors to the brink.
  • Rich: “You played a similar style of basketball against a team that you weren’t better at their style.” (36:29)

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5. Donovan Mitchell, NBA Officiating & “Foul Hunting”

[46:53–54:42]

• Discussion of Mitchell’s postgame comments about not getting foul calls.
  • Mitchell: “I feel like me getting to the basket's gotta relate to something.” (47:44)
• Broader debate on refs incentivizing flopping and the spread of “foul baiting” in the NBA.
  • Max: “Human beings respond to incentives… Fans don’t want to see foul hunting.” (52:13)
  • Rich: “That’s also part of your craftiness. There’s a balance of when to do it.” (52:45)

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6. Player Potential – The “Wally Pipp” and “Mercered” Analogy

[54:42–66:58]

• Max unpacks the idea of never quite living up to superstar comparisons, using baseball’s Wally Pipp and Bobby Mercer as metaphors for NBA prospects.
• Focus on Evan Mobley: Has he plateaued? Could he still rise to be "the best player on a championship team"?
  • Max on Mobley: “It looked like he might be evolving into Tim Duncan… now maybe he could be a Chris Bosh.” (58:35)
  • Rich: “It’s very unfair (to compare him to Duncan), but the talent is in there… maybe in the right circumstances.”
  • Bar for “best player on a championship team” is extremely high—discussion includes Isaiah Thomas, Giannis, etc.

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7. Playoff Roundup: Wolves/Spurs, Ant Edwards’ Toughness, Wemby, and the Knicks

[68:12–75:19]

• Ant Edwards’ Resilience: Returning from injury far ahead of schedule—potential to be face of the league.
  • Max: “When your leg bends past the knee this way… there’s no way he should be playing.”
  • Rich: “He’s showing gut-wrenching resilience… Maybe he could be the best in the NBA one day.” (70:01)
• Wemby’s Defensive Dominance: 12-block performance, debates about goaltending.
  • Max: “The reason people think it’s unfair—Wemby gets these goalten calls—is because no one else is blocking 12 shots in a game.” (70:59)
• Knicks’ Historic Opportunity: Are they the best team in the NBA right now?
  • Max: “This is the best chance they’ve had in my lifetime.” (74:07)

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8. Rich’s "Get Rich Quick" Segment & Series Adjustments

[75:19–78:44]

• Immediate adjustment strategies for playoff losers (Sixers, Cavs, Spurs).
• Emphasis on playing through Mobley for Cleveland, “playing perfect basketball” for the Lakers, Spurs needing to establish tone and precision early.
  • Rich: “Lakers got to play perfect basketball... Spurs are going to have to come out with a little more precision right away...” (76:24)

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9. Quick Hits & Listener Interaction

[80:39–100:12]

• IG Official Relationships: “Never. Don’t put your business on the street.” (80:48)
  • Privacy advice on social media for relationships and kids.
• Cam’ron and Mase’s show “It Is What It Is” lauded for professionalism and authenticity.
  • Max: “There’s structure to it...two incredible personalities...it’s like PTI, but a podcast.” (84:44)
  • Rich: “It gives them an advantage because... they don’t have this understanding of boundaries.”
• Voicemails/Emails:
  • Max asked to rap (he declines but reminisces).
  • Territorial drafts: Rich opposes idea, talent can come from anywhere.
  • “Which NBA legend would you pick to manage in the modern business era?”—AI, Shaq (Rich), and Pistol Pete/Larry Bird (Max).
  • Who wins: 2013 Heat vs. 2026 OKC Thunder? Both agree—Heat, but the landscape is more nuanced than it looks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rich, on family reunions (03:26): “Ruth Martin had a — she put a tax on you. Oh yeah, she was a gangster.”
• Max, on LeBron (16:53): “LeBron James was the best player on either team last night, which means everyone else ought to be ashamed of themselves. The man is 64 years old, Max.”
• Rich, on OKC’s depth (20:12): “There’s just more horses in the stable of the Thunder.”
• Max, on playoff pressure (43:07): “You never want to believe a dude is built in a way that just consistently chokes under pressure. But that’s what I feel about Harden right now.”
• Donovan Mitchell, on calls (47:44): “I feel like me getting to the basket's gotta relate to something, you know what I’m saying?”
• Rich, on Ant Edwards (70:01): “He’s showing gut-wrenching resilience... Maybe he could be the best in the NBA one day.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Family Reunion Segment: 01:19 – 14:43
• Lakers/Thunder Analysis: 15:01 – 33:46
• Chet Holmgren & Star Potential: 30:34 – 33:46
• James Harden & Analytics: 33:48 – 44:50
• Mitchell's Free Throws/Ref Talk: 46:53 – 54:42
• Player Potential, Mobley, Historic Context: 54:42 – 66:58
• Wolves/Spurs, Ant, Wemby: 68:12 – 75:19
• Get Rich Quick—Series Adjustments: 75:19 – 78:44
• Quick Hits (IG, Cam & Mase, Voicemails, Legend IP Question): 80:39 – 100:12

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Conclusion

This episode balances granular playoff analysis with big-picture perspectives on league trends and player legacies, all wrapped in friendly banter and cultural commentary. From the Lakers’ existential challenges and Harden’s legacy to the emergence of young stars like Chet and Ant, Max and Rich deliver a thorough, entertaining recap of the NBA’s hottest storylines—leaving listeners both informed and laughing.

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For Listeners

This summary captures key discussions and insights but can’t replicate the infectious chemistry and humor that makes Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul a standout in the sports podcast world. For deep-dive hoops analysis with doses of culture, nostalgia, and unfiltered takes, this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Max.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You look fresh today, man. I.

[A]

Likewise. We have to compliment each other's outfits,

[B]

of course, but that's not a Ralph shirt. That. Don't tell me that is Canale or Brioni.

[A]

It's a sneaky one.

[B]

Mm. Zegna, Prada.

[A]

Sneaky. I told you.

[B]

Ah, that is sneaky.

[A]

I could show you one thing. I would show you one thing, and you would get it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Look at the back.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Marella.

[A]

Yeah. You know, from that little. Those little strings.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fresh. I like it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, likewise.

[B]

Max, have you ever been to a. Do. Do you guys have family reunions?

[A]

You know, Jews don't have family reunions, as far as I know. I don't, you know, Like, I.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

I don't think a lot of, like, ethnic white people from the coasts. I don't hear about, like, family. Family reunions is, like, to me, more of a Middle American thing or a black thing, but I don't really. Yeah, I don't know. Like, a lot of, like, people I grew up with who were, you know, Irish American, Italian American.

[B]

There's so many holidays. Hell, you don't need a family reunion. You have. You have 25 holidays.

[A]

Yeah, but the only holidays we really do are Passover in Hanukkah.

[B]

No, that's not true.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, Yom Kippur you give. Yeah, but I'm rich. I'm a secular Jew, so I don't do all the. All the.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, well, good for you. You know, you don't have family reunions because the, the reality of it is this.

[A]

You have family. Family.

[B]

So many. Yeah, but. But the thing about the family reunion is with my grandma, Ruth Martin was the matriarch. Everybody got in line, right? The. With a family reunion. Cuz people have to send in their dues.

[A]

So what are dues?

[B]

Dues is like you.

[A]

No, I'm saying how much?

[B]

I mean, dudes, you know, back then, it was back in the 80s. Yeah, it was like 35, 50.

[A]

That's a lot in the 80s.

[B]

I know Ruth Martin had a. She put a tax on you. But. But now Ruth was making money. Oh yeah, no, she was a gangster. But now it's probably, I don't know, 100 bucks, right? Everybody brings in and that. And that paid maybe more, I don't know. But that pays for the food. That pays for. I don't think. Definitely don't pay for the hotel, but it pays for the food. It pays for. If they have to rent out a hall or all these different things. Sure, but then you had to.

[A]

How many, how many people in a family reunion?

[B]

Well, here's the thing is I'm trying to tell you. When Ruth Martin was running the family reunion, she. She was like, everybody bow down. You better send those dudes in early. Which they did.

[A]

Right. Or you're not coming.

[B]

And everyone showed up because she was on you.

[A]

Right?

[B]

She's worse than. She's worse than. She's worse than, than, than Bill Belichick in the, in the AFC championship game. The way she's on you, she is.

[A]

Plus any game that you try to run, that comes from her. She already knows what you know.

[B]

But she's on the phone, man. She used to be on the phone all night. Talk. Because you know, like we didn't have call waiting, right? So she may talk to my aunt Fran, who lived in la, three hours behind. They gonna talk. Six hours didn't hurt. Six. No, seriously, six hours.

[A]

You know what you had to do back then? You had to interrupt the call. You had to get the operator to interrupt the call.

[B]

Then prior to her talking to Fran, her and Charlotte didn't talk for an hour and a half when she got off work. Then her and Karen. Cause you know, I have sound like

[A]

Ruth was just talking and making money.

[B]

I have 11. My mother had 11 siblings.

[A]

See, this is what I'm asking 11 siblings.

[B]

So. But then, but here's the other thing. But then you had her sisters and the family just spread out. So anyway, I used to look forward going to a family reunion, but I also had, I had no skin in the game. I just got in the backseat and roll, you know. And we drove everywhere. I may have to pack the.

[A]

And how far away is the family? Like you're coming to the 88 we

[B]

had in Chicago, which was amazing, right? And what we would do is my uncles, you know, so once you eat you have these activities.

[A]

Give an example. What do you mean activities?

[B]

So we was tumblers. So we would break out into a full blown gymnastics session. You think you've seen the floor in the Olympics? You haven't seen nothing. When you see a 360 pound man do 20 backflips in a row, you think I'm lying? No, my uncle Lance, I guarantee you

[A]

see, if there was a Jewish family reunion, we just sit and eat.

[B]

Yes. But my uncle, he isn't this big anymore. But when he was 300 plus pounds, yeah, the man could do 20. The correct term is a backhand spring 20 back hand.

[A]

He should have been on America's Got Talent. Forget about the family reunion.

[B]

Tell you man. So but the problem is, what's going to happen is no matter what the family union is like, right? My grandmother, she decided who was the ogliarchs of the family. Max, you get the merch, so you get to do this, you get the food, you do that. She decided all of that. She's no longer here. So now what happens is whosever turn it is to take. Turn.

[A]

It's a mess.

[B]

Not so much of a mess. It's just that it's just as good

[A]

as it used to be.

[B]

It's a struggle to get people to commit. Cause then you would say, then somebody telling you they don't have it. But what they fail to realize is, well, you have Instagram and Facebook. And so we see,

[A]

we see you spending money even though they're fronting on Instagram now it's coming back to bite them.

[B]

There was no instagram in the 80s and 90s. But now you're saying you don't have anything.

[A]

I saw that new car. No, it wasn't my car. That was Right.

[B]

Yeah, but that makes it even worse because when you went to Enterprise and you posted if this is your car, but then you don't want to pay the family dues, right? And one thing for sure, no matter what, you can have Wagyu, you Can have caviar, you can have the best of champ. They gonna talk about you. You gonna be talked about at some capacity on the ride home the next day on the phone. Could you believe they had. They didn't have this. And I asked for my favorite that, and it wasn't there. Blah, blah. So

[A]

how many. Okay, 11 brothers and sisters.

[B]

It's the entire family.

[A]

It's got to be hundreds of people.

[B]

No, it's the entire.

[A]

So how many people?

[B]

I've been to a family reunion. It was well over 200 people.

[A]

200 people.

[B]

Cousins from everywhere.

[A]

Even if I tried to put a family reunion together, It'd be like 40 people.

[B]

Listen, Little Rock, Arkansas, Kansas City, St. Louis. Does Kansas. There's a Kansas City? Kansas City.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Two different Kansas and the Kansas City, Missouri side of people. Then you got the Memphis people, the Cleveland people.

[A]

Does everyone okay. Obviously not. Do most of the people know each other?

[B]

Hell, yeah.

[A]

Not everyone doesn't know each other, though. There's no way, Max. Because someone had a kid and they'd have it. They haven't been back and.

[B]

Man, Ruth Martin worked the phone like the commissioner of an organization.

[A]

How many.

[B]

Everyone knows everybody.

[A]

How often do they occur? Well, they. Once a year.

[B]

No, it used to be. It used to be the August of every year.

[A]

Every year they got to do this.

[B]

No, it used to be now. Now it's skipped. But I haven't been in a while. You know, I. But I do pay my dues. I send my dues in my contribution.

[A]

Rich, you gotta go. You have to go.

[B]

No, I haven't been in a while,

[A]

but what I'm saying is you're rich, Paul. You made it. The whole family's proud of you. You gotta. You gotta show. Now, I understand that comes with a whole bunch of other stuff that comes with a, everyone wants money and da, da. I get it, but you still got to show your face.

[B]

I show up throughout the year. Okay, yeah, I show up. Yeah, but it's. Sometimes it's been.

[A]

Rich shows up at the family reunion with the whole clutch entourage.

[B]

No, sometimes it's been during free agency. Look, I love my family. I would listen. It's. That's a lot of fun for me. And the great thing about it is I don't. I mean, I'm not above my family. I don't think that they. They treat me like I'm still.

[A]

Even though. Even though you think. You have to understand, every single person in your family, including your second cousin, lets it be known that Rich, Paul, and they Should.

[B]

And I am their cousin. They should let it be known. Because here's the thing. I can honestly say this. Everybody in my family had some type of contribution to taking care of me. I was in somebody's backseat on someone's couch. Kim and Tracy in St. Louis, my aunt Lottie, my. I mean, I was in somebody's backseat somewhere.

[A]

Right?

[B]

For sure. And, you know, as a baby Dean, I was in. See, you had the worst pause of the year. So he cannot even focus on that. As a baby Dean. I was in some.

[A]

He's saying it doesn't make it better. I know, but.

[B]

But this guy is crazy.

[A]

Dean's point about the pause game is he doesn't really play it. But if you're going to play it, then he's going to be. He's going to be.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

He's going to be. I don't. Then the question is, how far do you go before then? He's going to be loaded. Is that a pause? Is everything a pause, Max?

[B]

I don't really play it either. But anyway, for the listeners, and I know my cousins are listening. They all. I mean, I have a lot of. I have a really big family.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And, you know, for me, I appreciate it because, you know, it was. It was a. It was a contribution for my family at times. You know, I lived all over the place, especially my years in St. Louis, that we used to go to St. Louis every year. I know the route. I was. So I knew the Route 70. We used to take 71 south to. I think it was 70 west to 55 south. And that brings you into St. Louis. Then we would go. I think that takes you into Memphis or Jonesboro, Arkansas. I mean, I was there. You ever been to Jonesboro, Arkansas?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

Well, my grandmother.

[A]

I have to stop and think. I've been to a lot of places, but I don't. Okay.

[B]

And we'll get into the show. But this last thing, I had to go to Jonesboro, Arkansas, one time, Max. So my grandmother, she's there. My whole family lived on First, Second and Third. The whole street. First street, second street, third Street. All of our family. You could just go in anybody's house. It's family. And I used to love going over my Aunt Dorothy's house. But my grandmother tells us, go outside and tear that house down. I'm looking for a caterpillar. Where's the bulldozer at? You know what? She handed us a hammer. Like, what?

[A]

This is crazy. She figures if there's Enough of you. It'll get done.

[B]

Do you know how hot it was? Yeah. And they used to give you that Jonesboro and humid. But that red stuff, when the mosquitoes bite you, you put it. It was like a thing. It was like a bottle. I forgot what they call it. My mother, she would tell me, but it was like a bottle. You would dip it and it was red and you put it on the mosquito bite. But. But I had so many of them, it looked like somebody ran operational.

[A]

Did it work?

[B]

I mean, I would cry. You would cry yourself to sleep at night with so many mosquitoes, man.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so. But what you're gonna say, she tells you, we found a refrigerator from like 1944 in the house. It's like, okay, great. But anyway, let's start the show. But. Yes. No family reunion for you.

[A]

No, my family reunion. I've never been to a family reunion that I can think of of any kind.

[B]

I love the family reunion. But they are h. Yeah, they are hilarious. The pre game for a family reunion is hilarious when they collect.

[A]

When was the last time you were at one?

[B]

The last time I was at a family reunion. Well, I went to Houston last year. But it's the big family. It sees two. It's immediate family reunion and then it's the family reunion. So I can't make all of them.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

But that's a good question. It's been a few years. It's been a few. Been a few years. Yeah. But again, it's not, you know, here,

[A]

I'll put a button on this whole thing. In terms of how big the family reunion is and all that. It takes two people to make you. Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It took two people to make them, et cetera. That means if you go back 20 generations, it took over a million people to make you. If you go back a couple more generations, you're at a billion. Right. But we know the population of the earth has greatly expanded. It's not like there were many more people in the past. There were many, many, many, many fewer people in the past.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So how do you figure? How do you reconcile that? The answer is we are all much more closely related than we think. Much more closely.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And now we can start the show.

[B]

Now we can start the show. Great. Yeah.

[A]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[B]

Game [e-mail].

[A]

rich, we are going to play the first voicemails today.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

Cause it's not just that. We'll read your emails and respond. We've been doing that. 4, 2, 4.

[B]

What if it's in like Spanish?

[A]

We'll get a translator. 4, 2, 4. By the way, I grew up around a lot of Spanish kids. I don't speak a lick of Spanish. It's really a shame. 424-240-Mandarin. 3, 4 1, 2 40, 83 41. All right, let's start the show. Game over is brought to you by fanduel. It's been a wild playoff run, but it's not over yet. And FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make more of all the action to come. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build a same game parlay for a shot at bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinc. Rich, I gotta give you my impression of the Lakers last night, and then I want you to respond. Okay, what happened against the Thunder? Now, first of all, I gotta tell everyone, Rich's pick last night was the Lakers would lose by 18 points. And I don't remember if we have that on camera or not, but you were talking to people around here. You predicted Lakers are going to lose by 18. They lost by 18 on the dot. That's pretty good.

[B]

Don't kill me for that. But I mean, that's you just saying how you felt.

[A]

And I want to get into the why and all that stuff. But I want to give you my reaction first. And you can react to that or say what you want to say. LeBron James was the best player on either team last night, which means everyone else ought to be ashamed of themselves. The man is 64 years old, max.

[B]

He's 41.

[A]

And he's in basketball years, like in dog in basketball years, he's 112. I know that's ridiculous, especially because this is not like Kareem was a big so you don't have to run up and down the floor the same way. No one's expecting it. The things you're doing don't have to be as athletic because you can just get the ball. You're not playing above the rim other than with your height. Right. Like LeBron is still playing above the rim at times, running up and down the floor, defending when he Needs to. He has to say that certain moments, the fact that it's. That that style of play at that age will probably never see it again. That's the first thing. But the other thing is that what makes LeBron special more than anything, his scoring is kind of incidental. Like, the reason he's averaged as many points as he has is because he's too good not to. But that's not really his primary asset as a player. It's making a team work together and elevating the players around him. Austin Reaves last night, and I was worried for the Lakers about this, because when you get a big piece back to reintegrate it into the team, it affects everyone's role. It's going to take shots away from Luke Kennard. He dropped 27, he dropped 23. He was feeling himself. Right. It's going to take minutes away from Marcus Smart, who was doing a really good job. It's going to change the dynamic of the team. And what you need from Austin Reaves. Forget about the fact he couldn't hit a shot right. Cause that could happen. You get cold, whatever. I'm not worried that he's scared of the moment or he's not a clutch player. It's going to happen from time to time. What was really concerning to me is when you played Reaves with the second unit last night, when it was him and Jackson, Hayes and Laravia and that little group, it looked like the Keystone Cops. There was no cohesion. He was unable to make the group better. Forget about the shooting. That was a huge problem last night and they would have lost the game anyway. But that's the reason it wound up an 18 point loss to me. Rich?

[B]

Yeah? Look, I think in the playoffs, each round gets harder. Normally, just based upon your seeding, you run into a OKC team in the second round of the playoffs. But honestly, it didn't matter. It don't matter. Who you run into is San Antonio, Minnesota. It doesn't get any easier. And I think this is where the flaws start to really show. Because we talked about OKC the other day. A team like okc, we talked about ball pressure, we talked about them having dogs. When you look at how they affected the game, the Lakers got out to a 7A lead, but they closed the gap on that lead right away. By halftime, they're up 10, right? So I thought JJ had a great game plan as it pertains to Shay. He treated Shay the same way he treated Kevin Durant. He's bringing two and he's bringing Them quick. In the times that people did relax, he made them pay. But really he didn't have the best of game last night.

[A]

But Shea had 18, Shay had 18.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But he was able to adjust. So now. Okay, you want to trap Shay. I'm going to bring in a guy like Jared McCain who hasn't played and he comes in and hits four threes.

[A]

He has the horses and the more than. Right.

[B]

So you have the horses. So this just, this just comes down to stables. Right. There's just more horses in the stable of the Thunder. And as it pertains to Austin, look, anytime a player comes back from an injury, especially when you know the type of person that he is, he cares. He cares a lot. And so not saying you press, but you do have this feeling of I have a responsibility to step up to the plate, you know. And I think just being able to just settle in a little bit will allow him to be himself. It's hard to come back. And now I'm in the second round of the playoffs, I'm coming back. Normally you come back and you get to pick. Do I want to play against Milwaukee on a Tuesday night or am I going to wait and come back at home, you know, against the Hornets. But in this case, I'm coming back against the OKC Thunder in the second round of the playoffs. Right. So it's not as, as simple as a box score.

[A]

You know what's so interesting about what you just said, if you don't mind me interrupting for sure, is that when you said Austin Reaves cares so it makes it harder for him. I totally agree with that. And I think about like there are players like I think about football, like NFL. Antonio Brown was great in the clutch because he's like very self involved. He does not get rave reviews from teammates. Right. But because he believes he deserves it, he knows he's good. And because he's so self involved, he doesn't feel the pressure. I don't think he feels or felt the responsibility to teammates. Right. And so that took the pressure off. He could just be Antonio Brown under pressure. Then you get a guy like Odell Beckham Jr. Who I believe was more talented than Antonio Brown, but under pressure at times, especially later on, it was okay. But earlier in his career he was well liked by his teammates. He cared about other people. And so at times I felt like he underperformed under pressure because he cared so much. Right. It's an advantage sometimes to be like a psycho about that stuff, to not care. And so when you Say Austin Reaves cares, therefore he feels the pressure. I agree with that. And I think that's why he underperformed last night.

[B]

Yeah, well. And as far as it goes with LeBron, he's going to have to play as each round goes, if they're able to get there, obviously in the second round. Now you can see him kind of picking his spots. He came out the gate, I think he had eight very early. You could see him pacing himself. Because it's important, because I told you before, even last series, the goal for this team so under man, both through injury and just through roster, is to try the best they can to keep things close. And the Lakers almost have to play a perfect game in order to just be in striking distance. Not to win. They have to play a perfect game just to be in striking distance.

[A]

And they almost were in striking distance at the end. And every time they got almost in striking distance, they pull away.

[B]

There was a stretch that they were down six for like a two minute stretch and they had the chance to cut it to three. Smart took a three, Hachimura took a three and they both missed.

[A]

And then that's what you mean. They got to be perfect.

[B]

Then they went to a, they went to a five. Because if you. This is, this is where timely shots matter. They're down six, they cut it to six. If they make one of those threes or even just a two point game, not only is it one possession game, Mark calls a timeout, he calls a timeout, but they went from down 6 to down 11. So now JJ has to call a timeout. JJ called so many timeouts, he only had one left for a long time. So he was just taking the brunt because he couldn't call timeouts.

[A]

That's what you mean. They have to be perfect.

[B]

Yeah, you have to.

[A]

But, but here's the other thing, Rich. And this actually leads to the next thing, which is like, when are we going to see Luka is the advantage. The reason I pinpoint Reaves playing with the second unit as the key to that game is because what they have found, because this has been looked into, is if you start a second unit even against a team of All Stars, but the All Stars have tired legs because they haven't been subbed out and your second unit comes in with fresh legs, second unit's the better player or is the better unit than the All Stars. Right. Because they're fresh.

[B]

Not in this case, though.

[A]

Right. And that's the problem in this case when, because the Thunder are so deep, they're going to be good no matter who you, you know, they're always going to have. But that's why it's so important that if Austin Reaves is running the second unit against the OKC starters, he. They've got to get some business done. And it went in the other direction. And like that to me, was the key to the game. When I'm watching, like, the Lakers could maybe win this game if everything goes right. But, but, but Reaves running that second year is like, okay, this game's over.

[B]

If everything goes pop. Perfect. Everything goes perfect. Because here's the other thing. And look, the Lakers didn't put. They had, they had so many live. You can't, you can't have live ball turnovers against okc. You just can't. Whether it's Caruso, whether it's Wallace, whether it's, whether it's Shea. You know, did you see the ball pressure and, and the physical toughness that OKC is playing with, the Lakers have to play hard, harder. JJ I'm sure he's already saying this, okay, if whatever the meter was of, of playing hard against the Rockets, multiply it times two against okc.

[A]

But that's why I ask about will Luka come back? And that's. Even the Lakers are kind of doomed because even if Luka comes back, that has such a dynamic and dramatic effect on the, on the chemistry of the team because he's such a big piece of. But if he were back and Reaves is playing with him and LeBron and Marcus Smart can go to the bench and run that second unit. I like that better.

[B]

Yeah. But even in the second, him and Canard.

[A]

Marcus Smart and Canard. And plus then you could play Smart and Canard with Luka and LeBron at different.

[B]

Got to have two of the three on the floor at all times when fully healthy with that team. But also you got to be more. Where they did miss Luka last night is that stretch of being down 6 and needing a timely basket. You know, he's one of the best at that. But everything has to be more precise. You can't, you can't come off a ball screen and just throw a pocket pass. You got to come off a ball screen and throw a pocket pass. Like you gotta. It's a, it's, it's. It's when you. I'm watching just a different game, so I can. I, I understand it. Your quick twitch, your thoughts. Simple as this. If I'm a big and I rebound the ball, I cannot bring it down. Don't even think about bringing it down. You just can't.

[A]

And that's something. When we were at the play, the Houston game was at game. What game was that? Game one, Game two, Game two. And Jackson Hayes did that, and he brought it down. And LeBron immediately checked him on it.

[B]

Yeah, he just can't.

[A]

He did it in a way that did not demoralize Hayes. He just like, he's like. And the next play, the next time, maybe it was two plays later, Hayes went right up and he felt good about it.

[B]

Yeah, because when I say they have to play perfect, I'm not saying make every shot. I'm saying is you can't miss a box out. You can't be lazy with the pass. You can't get caught ball watching.

[A]

You gotta be crisp.

[B]

Yeah. You can't tag somebody and not get back. And if I do get back to close out, I can't have this laissez faire type of closeout. When you play a team like the OKC Thunder, you have to be so fundamentally and, and, and scheme sharp as a unit, not one or two people as a team.

[A]

Are we going to see Luca again this season?

[B]

I don't think you should. I don't think you should, man. I, I, look, I think again, I'm just speaking from my own point of view in terms of if the soft tissue injury is what they say it is again, you're coming back in the second round of playoffs. If he was to come back, the Lakers would have to win at least one game, maybe two, for you to justify him coming back. And now if you're in that position and he's able to play, but you're still risking it because you have to, where do you ramp up at? Right. You want to ramp up against the OKC Thunder. That's like driving a car. That's. That's called driving off the ramp. Like. So who am I to say what he should do or shouldn't do? I'm just saying from a basketball perspective, I don't think so. I don't think you'll see him.

[A]

I mean, I don't think it'll. Will it make a difference? There's not enough Runway to have a team functioning with him at the level it would need to, to compete with.

[B]

But, you know, he's out there looking, he's on the bench, he's engaged. He loves the game, he wants to play. One thing you can't say is nobody on that, on that roster doesn't want to compete.

[A]

But I want to see, look, LeBron and Luka, the basketball IQ in the playoffs didn't gel in the regular season the way you would think, but in the playoffs, I want to see what that looks like. Because very rarely ever in the history of any sport have you had two guys whose brains were operating on that level on the same team.

[B]

The unfortunate thing is we don't get to see those two guys play equally yoked in terms of.

[A]

Of course. But.

[B]

Yeah, but that.

[A]

But your brain is going to get better. If not. If anything.

[B]

But the approach appreciative thing is having them share the floor. Now the. Now the, The. The thing that you hope you could see is having them share the floor and actually have a realistic chance of at least contending.

[A]

So from the OKC point of view, before we get to the Cavs and James Harden, from the OKC point of view, Chet is the second best player on the team. When you look at impact right now, period, if Jalen Williams, he's still the second best player overall. He has the second best impact on the game.

[B]

Jalen Williams is really good.

[A]

He's really good.

[B]

But I'm saying when they won, I'm

[A]

just saying they won't.

[B]

Really good. I like Chet a lot.

[A]

Me too. Overall player, I think it's Chet. Okay, but. But offensively, I agree with you. Offensively, if everyone's good, he's really the third option. So the question is, can he be. If your second option is hurt or not on the floor or compromised in some way, can Chet be the second offensive option on a championship team?

[B]

I tell you one thing, he definitely has the talent. I think it takes more than talent to unlock that. Obviously, you got to get the opportunity to. That's. That's. That's. That's.

[A]

Is that what it's going to come down to?

[B]

Yeah. And that's where. Actually, that's the opportunity that's up ahead for him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's where stars are born. This is if. If you're. If you're Chet, this is what you want. You want that opportunity.

[A]

And for what you just said, I totally agree with. It's. Look, Rich, I don't make the rules, but I must enforce them. This, the idea that, like I always say, when Joker was down two possessions with almost two minutes left in the game, what did I say at the time you had the game on your phone? We were doing the pod from Miami. I said, okay, this script has not been written.

[B]

This is not show.

[A]

I reserve judgment about. About Joker. Let's see what the evidence Is right. Let's see what actually occurs. And they lost and Ant was not available to play. So that's bad. I'm saying right now, what you just said about Chet is right on the money. Here it is. No Jalen Williams, right. You still have a great team. You have a great number one option. Now here's Chet's chance. As you just said. It doesn't mean if he doesn't get it done, it can never happen. It doesn't mean if he gets it done, it's. He's a made guy forever and ever. Because now, because it'll. It could change in the future too. But this will be a big piece of evidence in Chet's career about what level of player he is. You're. You're entering your prime or should be soon. You're still a young ascending player. Your, Your team is deep. You got a great number one. Do it. Let's, or, or, or not. But let's see what happens right now. If he can be the second option offensively on a championship team, then he will be. And, and if he doesn't, then it's like, well, he didn't get it done. I mean like that's what these games do. They show you. This is the history is being written right now.

[B]

No, as look, you grow up wanting these opportunities as a young person that has a NBA aspiration. These are the moments that you grow up working so hard for. And very few people get that opportunity. He's actually going to get it.

[A]

So let's see who's had a lot of opportunity.

[B]

Rich who.

[A]

And it breaks my heart because he deserves better than this, but he's doing it to himself is James Harden. James Harden, who I never thought should have been a 35 point a night guy, I thought James Harden best. James Harden should have been a 22 to 25 point, 12 to 14 assist guy. Right.

[B]

Well, I told you what I think.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

Analytics really hurt him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

James's chance of winning a championship, if you take out analytics and you take out this idea that we have to shoot all these threes and it positioned him as the number one guy as it pertains to impact to do all because the way they constructed the team, that's what it led to did him in my opinion a disservice because if you gave him a different infrastructure around him in that prime years when James Harden was arguably up there with the best of anybody, when LeBron and Stephens having that run regular season, I think

[A]

he gets so right about that.

[B]

Gets to the finals and have a chance to win. A chance.

[A]

Okay, I think that's a brilliant point and I think that that's right. But let me make the counterargument, see how strong the point is, and let's see if it defeats this counterargument. Okay. This is how I think of stuff myself. I'm like, what's the best counter to that? And what argument wins? And that's my argument. When the. When The warriors got KD, when they took a 73 win team that came this close to beating LeBron and Kyrie and Kevin Love and everybody and just parachuted Kevin. Kevin Durant in his prime onto that team without losing hardly anything. I mean, they lost a center, but really, they. That team was unbeatable, probably the most unbeatable team of all time. That's why when LeBron lost to them, it's like, come on, at a certain point, you stack it so high, there's nothing you can do. That team played the Rockets team with James Harden.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Without Chris Paul, who got hurt in that game. And it took in a game seven, the worst shooting night ever. Not just by Harden, but by the entire team. For the KD warriors to barely get past them. And that was the result of analytics and of the way they played. The reason they were so outmanned in terms of talent but were still able to almost win was because they played the most efficient brand of basketball.

[B]

Well, here's what I'll say to that. You just made my point because of analytics. What you did was you played a similar style of basketball against a team that you weren't better at their style of playing the game at. And so although if you think about the warriors, you got Clay, you got Steph, you got. And you got kd.

[A]

I can guarantee Draymond and ignore.

[B]

But forget those two for one second. I'm talking about style of play shooting threes. You got those three guys. I can almost guarantee if we go back and bring up the stats of what the shoot three point percentage was of each three of those guys for that season, I can guarantee you all

[A]

three of those guys shot it better than any percentage wise are probably in the top five. But that's because analytics said keep throwing them up and you'll balance that out, which they almost did. This close.

[B]

Here's the other thing. Now you add that on top of the best one on one player in the league, arguably at that time was Kevin Durant. Easy, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A underrated thing about Steph Curry is as great as his shooting Is his conditioning and how he plays the game. And never stop moving.

[A]

No doubt. Including on the defensive end where he, he. You can play a really good team defense because that dude's willing to do it.

[B]

So now we haven't got to Clay yet.

[A]

You realize second best shooter of all time probably.

[B]

And you realize Clay once scored 60 points on 11 dribbles.

[A]

He dropped 37 in a quarter.

[B]

I think this might have been the same game. He had 63 in a different game too.

[A]

But okay, he dropped 26 in a quarter earlier in that season and that was his second best quarter that year.

[B]

Now you add Iggy and Draymond, two hall of Famers, not only that high iq, willing to star in their role, defensive minded type of guys. Can't get no better than that. Those five people right. Now add the system on top of that of the Warriors. Everything, misdirection, everything cut.

[A]

Rich, you're making the opposite point. You're saying the warriors should have blown them out.

[B]

No, but it was close. But here's what I'm saying.

[A]

With no CP3, it was close.

[B]

But you're talking about a seven game series. But this is the point I'm making. But because the warriors also shot a lot of threes and anybody can have an off night or not as good of a three point shooting night. The other part of that is now on the other side, you have James. I think they had pat, Bev.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

P.J. tucker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tough team, Capella.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's not like it wasn't a good team.

[B]

No, not like it wasn't a good team. But if your analytics say shoot a lot of threes, those aren't the guys you want shooting threes.

[A]

Right. In other words, you believe that they had the pieces around them. I don't think you can make the argument if they would have played in another way, they would have come any closer to beating the Warriors.

[B]

No, what I'm saying, I think you

[A]

could say it's the exception that proves the rule that even you know that, that yes. That one exception existed. But look at all the other teams.

[B]

What I'm saying is.

[A]

Been on. He's never.

[B]

What I'm saying is you had the right mix up. We talked about this the other day. Dogs, Pat, Bev's dog, PJ Tucker. Dog on a defensive end. Right.

[A]

I don't care, man. They had kd, Steph, Klay, Dre and Iggy.

[B]

That's not what I'm saying.

[A]

But I'm talking about game seven.

[B]

But we're talking About. We're talking about James Harden. We're talking about James Harden and the structure around him.

[A]

I don't think Harden could have gotten any closer than he did running another system that year. But what I will say about Harden.

[B]

But what about 26 David? He was there 2016. Right.

[A]

If you take that season out, that's to me that's the best argument against analytics ruining Harden because I don't think they could have done nearly as well had they not just played the most efficient possible way analytically. However, you're right about this. All the other seasons James Harden's been on a lot of really good teams and I believe it was a mistake for him to be.

[B]

They played the same. Every team played the same exact way.

[A]

Right. For him to be the guy getting up all those shots. The best I ever saw him play was when he went to Brooklyn and he was averaging like 22 points and Kyrie was off ball and James was like a perfect pure point guard because

[B]

what was he doing though?

[A]

He was facilitating the offense.

[B]

A lot of.

[A]

A lot of pick and rolls.

[B]

This is my point. So all I'm saying is if you plugged in, let's just say for example, using this. Because this guy is not in the playoffs, just drop AD at the 4, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Be honest. Drop any one of those type of guys. I'm just saying construction and now in the playoffs you're playing to make the defense shift and you plan to make guys think you're putting guys side pick

[A]

and you're not dropping in just Tom, Dick, Harry.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm just saying. But you're putting guy. Well, you know, listen, I'm not the GM or the president of the team. I'm just playing fantasy basketball. I'm just letting you know if you were thinking non analytically and thinking about basketball.

[A]

You make different choices about your roster and James Harden. That's the point. I totally agree with that. Do you think that they're going to. That the Cleveland Cavaliers will regret. Let me say this, I said it when the trade went down. They will regret trading for James Harden. It's not just that they're getting hardened though. It's what they gave up to get hardened. You had two point guards. Really, both of whom are excellent running the pick and roll and you gave. And you traded one guy who was 10 years younger, I guess because he's injury prone for one guy who's 10 years older but has not been able to get over the hump in the playoffs. You. James Harden was bad last night. He had a bunch of turnovers against the Pistons, who are a very good defensive team. Harden has to play at least, like, right now. It's not like, hey, James Harden, we need you to score 40 points. It's James Harden. Can you just play a good point guard? And what's the reason it bothers me, because I root for Harden, is you never want to believe a dude is built in a way that just consistently chokes under pressure.

[B]

Pressure.

[A]

But that's what I feel about Harden right now. And again, he can write, he can change the script. Right now, here's a chance. Detroit's very beatable. Harden's on a good team. He has a couple of really good bigs. He has another guy playing next to him who can score. He had like, he has a lot. I don't want it to be in written now in the book of James Harden, even then, when he wasn't even the second scoring option on the team. Who should be Mobley? Who can be Allen when Harden is setting him up? Right.

[B]

Mobley should be the first scorer.

[A]

Right. Should be Mobley, Mitchell, Allen, Harden. Right. And I don't want it to be that, oh, my God, he couldn't even take care of the ball. He was like, he's. He's careless. He's getting. He's getting turned over seven, eight times in a game.

[B]

Well, look, I think whether someone regrets it or not, I mean, I think when people make choices like they made, there's four other things that they're contemplating or have to position themselves for. And that just says, hey, we're going for it right now. Obviously, you know, I represent Darius Garland don't make. Which does make me biased.

[A]

And Garland and Harden running the pick and roll to me are like equals. They're both great at doing that. And Garland's 10 years younger.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know how I feel about Darius Garland. So there's no. There's no conversation about Darius Garland with me. I think he's one of the premier point guards in our league. Not just because of me. I mean, we've seen it. I think he. And you know what? And I think that it's good for both. I think Darius is in a good spot. Is in a great spot.

[A]

I'm talking about Harden.

[B]

And. Yes, but in Harden's case, again, he's going to a place where there's expectation to win. You don't make that trade to go out in the second round. You make that trade. You went out in the second round last year, so you don't make that trade to go out in the second round again this year. You make that trade to get there and what that said was you feel like James Harden is a difference maker and it gets you there. So we'll see. There's only been one game in that series. A long series.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

By the way, do you hear the Mitchell sound after the game? Donovan Mitchell, what do you have to say?

[B]

What do you have to say?

[A]

Check it out. The series against Toronto, you only took 16 free throws. You only had two attempts tonight. And I know that there was a big free throw disparity between the two teams, but why do you think individually

[B]

you are not getting to the free

[A]

throw line as much as you had during the regular season?

[B]

I want to separate this from the game. It says I the free throw disparity is not why we lost tonight. I want to make sure I say that. But I don't know, I'm trying to get downhill and a friend of mine got fined for talking about flop. So I'm not going to try to double down. But I mean like I feel like that's what I gotta do at this point. You know what I mean? Like I'm trying to get downhill, trying to get to the bucket and sometimes my people are in my way and

[A]

I'm trying to get fight through contact,

[B]

and I'm not getting these calls. You said I had what, like 13 in the last series? Like 16. I mean, I'm just not getting the calls. I don't know why. I don't flop. Maybe that's why. This isn't just a tonight thing. This has been the entire series, and it's. It's frustrating a little bit, but because I'm such a dynamic driver, right? Like. But I can't control that. So if they're not going to call for me, I got to find a way to finish through that. But you know me, I'm never one to sit here and complain, and that's not why we lost the game tonight or whatever. But at some point in time, I feel like me getting to the basket's got to relate to something, you know what I'm saying? So we'll see.

[A]

What do you think of that?

[B]

Well, first of all, I want to say I thought that him saying what he said prior to the flopping comment was very important. Putting things in context. It's not why they lost. So that was great. I think that in the playoffs, the focus has to be to just finish the play, right? Don't worry about the fouls. Finish the play. But look, Donovan does get downhill a lot. He's, you know, a big guy and athletic. I'm saying, for his height, athletic. And I can see the frustration where you're playing against a tough Detroit team. They're definitely fouling, no question about it. But it's the playoffs and you just. They just not gonna call every call. And look, I live with a man who got filed so many times, you know, throughout his career, and I've seen blatant calls you don't call and, you know, it's. But. But I do think this is game one. Let's see where the series is after game four. I. I do think Donovan will get his fair share of calls. It didn't happen last night, but I do think he will down the stretch. But I don't think he's wrong for. For bringing it to the attention. I actually think it's pretty witty to at least throw it out in the atmosphere to set it up for game two.

[A]

It's like a Phil Jackson move.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, we're not gonna. All right, a couple comments. I have a couple thoughts about this. Rich. One, what you said right off the top is. Right the way he said we did not lose. This is. I'm just gonna answer your question.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. So I'm gonna answer your. Really? He's using it as an opportunity to put it out in the ether, like you said. Maybe put it in the restaurant.

[B]

Yeah, I like it.

[A]

Yeah. So that was good what you said about it's the playoffs, concentrate on making the shot, not foul hunting is also right.

[B]

He didn't say it was foul hunting.

[A]

No, no, I'm saying this is what your commentary is. It's the playoffs. Forget about flopping to get a call, make the shot, and then hopefully you get the call. So I'll say about that. I have another James Harden thought where it was close to games on the line. It's a playoff series and he's looking for the foul and not really looking to make the shot. So the shot doesn't come close and he doesn't get the call. Right. Like you gotta think about making the shot. I agree with that too. And I think Donovan is that kind of player.

[B]

He is.

[A]

No, but finally, the real big issue there, and this relates to your guy, this relates to LeBron James. When it drives me crazy. Look, we have this argument all the time. MJ, LeBron. Right. But what drives me crazy when people criticize LeBron for the following. Cuz I don't think MJ needs the extra help is he flops. LeBron's such a flopper. MJ didn't flop. LeBron flops everyone. Human beings respond to incentives. What LeBron and others have noticed is that if you flop, you get calls. Now LeBron has the Shaq issue where he's so big, Shaq wasn't getting calls he should have gotten. LeBron the same thing, wasn't getting calls he should have gotten. So. So people see sometimes where LeBron really didn't get fouled, but he's trying to sell a foul to the refs and criticize him for that. But that's really the byproduct of the fact that the refs reward flopping by blowing the whistle. And if you don't flop, you don't get the call. So it is pervasive in the NBA when someone touches you to make a big act out of it, because it helps you. Why wouldn't you do something that. That's like a. That's like a batter leaning into a

[B]

pitch, shooting the ball. So.

[A]

But like in baseball, you know, the pitch is a little close. You really need to get on base. A guy might lean into it, get hit by the pitch. Now if you don't start saying, no, you leaned into that, we're not giving you the base Guys are gonna do that. Why wouldn't they? You're incentivizing the behavior. So I agree with his point. I agree with his point. What he's saying is, hey, NBA, in order for me to win, are you trying to incentivize me to produce a lesser product for the fans? Cause fans don't wanna see foul hunting.

[B]

Right, but in this case, I mean, that's also part of your craftiness. There's a balance of when to do it, when not to do it, and if I'm getting downhill. Listen, I think where understanding how to draw fouls come into effect is a certain point of the game. Teams in the bonus, five minutes to go, three minutes to go in the game. You know, you're in the penalty, then it comes into play. Because if I'm up, If I'm up 6 and I'm a player to the level of a Donovan Mitchell and my team's up six and our opponent is in the. The penalty and I'm getting to the free throw line, controlling the game, drawing fouls. I'm trying to win. I don't care how I win. I'm trying to win. Of course, yeah.

[A]

So here's a tool that will help you win. We will reward that behavior. So if you reward. It's like raising a kid, right? If you, if the kid has a tantrum and gets what they want, then you're going to. And then the kid realizes, I'm going to throw a tantrum to get what I want. If you show the players, hey, hey, flop and you'll get a free throw. Well, that's a good thing for their team. They would LeBron or whoever or Donovan Mitchell or James Harden. If you're not doing something to help your team that's actually bad, you're a better player if you do the thing to help your team, right? So that's on the league rewarding it. Not the players who are obviously taking the thing that you're going to give them. All right, this leads to something rich. I'm not going to do five minutes on it because we have more to do. I want to get to the Wolves and Wemby and all that stuff and of course Ant. But I won't do a five minute max. Be like a three minute max. Cause I did a little bit of it the other day. I want to talk about Evan Mobley and potential and I talked about Bosh and Duncan the other day. I'm going to work it into. There's a phrase in sports called and in life, you don't want to get Wally Pipped. What that means is, once upon a time, Yankees had a first baseman named Wally Pip, who's a really good player.

[B]

I knew it was going back to baseball.

[A]

Look what. Look what hat you got on, Max. So. But this. There's more baseball after this.

[B]

Give you a baseball card for Christmas. This is crazy.

[A]

That's not a bad idea. So Hanukkah. But that's good. I got eight of them.

[B]

So, yeah, Hanukkah.

[A]

Wally Pips, really good first baseman. Took the day off, whatever it was, or he got hurt or something, or he had a headache, famously. So this, they put a kid in that they had Tate gotten called Luke, named Lou Gehrig, and Lou Gehrig set the consecutive game streak play 2,100.

[B]

I heard of that guy.

[A]

So no one ever heard about Wally Pipp again, Right? And the moral of the story is,

[B]

you know, maybe don't think it's a good rap name. Wally Pip.

[A]

Maybe don't. I was thinking that. No, maybe don't take the day off, right? Like, maybe, like there's a dude who's looking to take your job. Don't get Wally Brady. And that's in the vernacular of larger cultures. Like, if you say you don't want to get Wally Pipped, that actually means something outside of sports. But I want to create another word that comes from a Yankee, okay? And I've said this before, you don't want to get. You don't want to. You don't want to Bobby Mercer yourself, or you don't want to get Mercered. And this is what it is. Yankees had a real good prospect from the same town as Mickey Mantle. Commerce, Oklahoma. And for kids who don't know who Mickey Mantle was, picture Barry Bonds, but give him a better arm. Make him, before the Juice, a better hitter, and make him a switch hitter.

[B]

Stop threatening Barry Bonds. He's one of the best baseball players of all time.

[A]

Hold on. He was before the Incredible Hulk, but

[B]

I don't care how much juice I'm drinking, I can't hit a home run to save my life.

[A]

His position in baseball history with people who just give him credit for after he turned into the Incredible Hulk is incorrect. Before he was in the Incredible. He was the Incredible Hulk.

[B]

Is he going to the hall of Fame?

[A]

Of course he should. He should have been in the hall of Fame a long time ago, okay? He's one of the greatest players ever. If you call him the greatest hitter ever, you're giving him credit for stuff that really Wasn't just him, but that's a segment.

[B]

What about the hand eye?

[A]

That improves.

[B]

Does it?

[A]

100%.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. How do you think Sammy sosa and Mark McGwire started hitting.300 and stuff like that? Or close to it. Those kind of hitters, Anyway, I don't know. Anyway, let me get back to Mercer. So Bobby Mercer is called the next. He's called the next Mickey Mantle, Right? And when he's coming up, he's good. And then he's like All Star level. And then maybe he's the best player in baseball. And then he follows that up with even a better power season. And then, Rich, he has another All Star season. And in that All Star season, you realize, oh, forget about Mickey Mantle. So. So what Mercer means to me is.

[B]

You mean forget about Bobby Mercer.

[A]

No, no, I'm saying he ain't ever going to be Mickey Mantle.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Like he's never gonna be like this. And then at a certain point, like, it's so unfair to a dude that you put up an All Star season and people are disappointed. Well, I guess he's not who we thought he could be.

[B]

So how's this?

[A]

Evan Mobley and I brought up Duncan and Bosch the other day. Evan Mobley, a year and a half ago, looked like he might be evolving into Tim Duncan. And Tim Duncan is the best player on a championship dynasty because he's going like this, right? He's defensive player of the year. He's an all NBA player, third team. He's going like this. And then it went like this. He had another All Star caliber season. He missed a big shot in the previous series. That. So they had to go to a Game 7. But it's like he's not even quite as good as he was the year before. And it looks like if this is the ceiling, he maybe could be a Chris Bosh, who's a great player and a Hall of Famer, but ain't Tim Duncan. And that's where I am with Mobley right now. You look at Mobley, you just said he needs to be the first option

[B]

on that team for this series. Yes.

[A]

Can he be the best player on a championship team? Is that in him? And if not, and if so, why isn't it happening?

[B]

He's too young. Max, what year is this for Evan? Four at least. Or five?

[A]

Yeah, it's either four or five. Let me see.

[B]

No, it has to be at least four. Well, yes, at least it's five, because the 2020 season was Tyrese and Ant

[A]

and three, four, five.

[B]

So 20, 21, I think was, was, was the moment.

[A]

21. 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 5 5.

[B]

He's five years in. They do say between years. By year three, you know what, you know, by year seven, it should be consistent. But some of that has to do with style of play. Some of that has to do with opportunities. Some of that has to do with construction of, of, of, of roster and, and how you want. It's, it's, it's, it's fluid. It's not just one thing. I, I, I really believe in Evan and Evan Mobley, I think Evan. And by the way, but how much.

[A]

But like, listen, I can guarantee you this. Bosch is not an insult. Chris, Chris Bosh is a great player. Was a great player. But what I'm saying is there's levels to it and Chris Bosh could not be the best player on a championship team.

[B]

But Tim Duncan was not a.

[A]

And part, let me. And part of being Bobby Mercer'd is about unfair comparisons. If Mickey Mantle is the comparison, how could you live up to it? The crazy thing about LeBron is he's magic and Michael had a baby and he lived up to it. Right? If you're being compared to Tim Duncan, maybe it's unfair.

[B]

Who compared him to Tim Duncan after

[A]

one year, in my mind I was thinking that's so unfair. But that's what I'm saying. Part of it is an unfair comparison. That's what I'm asking. Is it unfair for the expectation of Evan Mobley to be, he can be the best player on a championship team?

[B]

Let me tell you why it's unfair to compare him to Tim Duncan after, if you said last year, after four years of basketball, Evan Mobley played six months at usc. Then he went to the Cavs at number three. Tim Duncan played four years at Wake Forest. Then he went into the organization of the San Antonio spurs playing next to David Robinson, who deferred to him. With guys like Avery Johnson and, and Sean Elliott and Bruce, like this is the problem we have in sports. A guy shows a flash of talent and then automatically we put this expectation on him. And if they, that's what I'm asking.

[A]

Is it unfair?

[B]

It's very unfair.

[A]

But the argument you're making is the opposite, Rich. You're making the argument that Duncan had all these built in advantages by the time he was four years in the league. He played multiple years at a program. He learned really how to play. He played next to great players and great organization. And so he gets to Become Tim Duncan and a system. But. But what you're. But what that suggests is that. And roster is that Evan Mobley maybe could be the best player on a championship team in the right circumstances. Maybe.

[B]

I said this. No, I didn't argue against it. I said maybe he can. I said that in the right circumstances. You have.

[A]

And I'm saying we're at the point now or very soon where it's either going to happen or it's not going to happen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Once you're coming up on your second contract. Right. Once you're. You've been in the same order on a lot of good teams at this point, and here you are in the playoffs where you really need to be the best player on the team to get to the next round. Here's one of those moments in your career where there's a fork in the road.

[B]

But here's the thing about team sports. It's not just the player. There's so many other components that matter within the success and how successful that player becomes outside of his. His. Just his talent.

[A]

That's what I'm asking.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is it in there? Could it be brought out?

[B]

I think the talent is in there. Yes. I think the talent is.

[A]

They took away the point guard. They replaced him with another point guard who scores more. Is that what's going on? Is. Is. Has had.

[B]

I think it's a number of things. And I believe in Evan Mobley.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I will say this so we can move on.

[A]

Can he be the best championship team?

[B]

Can you build your team around him? I think that Evan Mobley has the potential within him where he could be the best player on a championship team.

[A]

That's what I'm asking.

[B]

Given the construction of the team, the opportunity that's there, so on and so forth. Got it.

[A]

Got it. That's all I wanted to know. Because some dudes rich like. I like Allen a lot, too.

[B]

He's right.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Some dudes get. I liked Chris Bosh a lot. I don't think in any structure, Chris Bosh is the best player on a championship team. I think maybe in the right situation, it could be the second best. Definitely saw.

[B]

Definitely second.

[A]

He was the third, as it turned out.

[B]

Well, he was the third behind two.

[A]

And even then they didn't win. Every year they won two out of four. It's hard to win a championship, of course. And it's super hard.

[B]

You have to tell me that. Tell the guys that think it's so easy to win a championship. That's never won.

[A]

Look at. Look at the history of basketball. Look who has been. Who are the worst players to be the best player on a championship team? The worst players to be the best on a championship team. And you'll see that in order. That. That level is super high. Super high.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you start to talk about Isaiah Thomas, which.

[B]

Isaiah Thomas, the original.

[A]

He's the best player on a championship team. And because he was short, it was like, boy, you need a lot of.

[B]

Isaiah Thomas is one of the best players, period.

[A]

But every. That's what you said about every team that's ever won a championship. It's. You got to be.

[B]

Isaiah Thomas would have been the best player on every. He would have either been the. The. The best player on every team or the second best player on every team that won A championship from 1990 to 2026.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

Hold on. Second best, but the best.

[B]

I said the. The best or second best?

[A]

Okay, but I'm. But I'm asking.

[B]

From 1990 to 2026, you be a two.

[A]

I'm saying, can you be a one? Okay, well, Shaquille O' Neal or Kobe Bryant, whoever you want to say. Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwan, Joker. One year. One year, Gar Thomas would have been

[B]

the second best player. Or maybe. Yeah, I would say he would have been 1B on that Houston Rockets team by far.

[A]

Yeah, he'd have been two on that Houston Rockets team. One B. I. I love Isaiah by far. Hakeem, my point is, it's. It. The.

[B]

The.

[A]

When I say, can you build a team around him and win a championship? It's you like, the guys who even just get one. Who just get one are. Are like Giannis or. I mentioned a bunch of the others. Right? That's just to grab.

[B]

He might have been one on that team.

[A]

No. Giannis at his best.

[B]

Come on, Chris.

[A]

He's just.

[B]

He's Chris. Chris Middleton.

[A]

He would have been two.

[B]

He would have been. No, no. See, you get so caught up in names. That's why you would be a bad gm. Chris Middleton was the impact player on that team when they won a championship,

[A]

but the best player was Giannis. By a lot.

[B]

It was not by a lot. In the key moments, it was Khris Middleton.

[A]

That's a different thing, Rich. That's. You need different guys serve different functions. Bigs who can't get their own shots shoot as well, frequently. Let me ask you, like, even Shaq needed. Kobe Penny was not enough to get Shaq Penny at his best was not enough for Shaq. He needed Kobe. Kareem only one. Kareem only ever won a championship if he had either Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson as point guard.

[B]

Listen, I think that that Orlando Magic series with the Rockets was a lot closer than what people what what? I know they got swept, but they were a young team. Things happen.

[A]

And I'm just making the point when we say, yes, I believe you can build a team around him and be a champion. The bar for that is much higher than people realize. To be the best player on a championship team is almost impossible. You have to be ridiculously historically good.

[B]

Okay, let's get to the next series.

[A]

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Manage your activity with our consumer protection tools T Wolves.

[B]

I told you it wasn't going to

[A]

be a but I didn't know Ant was going to play.

[B]

Whether he played or not. I told you that like no, if

[A]

he didn't play, it would not be like that. Ant had a big impact.

[B]

Ant was on a minute restriction and they barely won. He was on a minute restriction? Yes, he had some key threes. He did. I mean just having him out there makes a difference and he's showing a gut wrenching like resilience. I don't even know how he's playing.

[A]

Remember earlier in the season when I said who could be the face of the league? And you said Ant could possibly be the face of the league. Maybe he's even leading the pack.

[B]

He's leading the pack of the community of the community of potential faces of the league.

[A]

Let me tell you something, what he's showing me right now, Rich, I agree with you now because.

[B]

Well, you should agree with me then.

[A]

But even you started changing your tune later in the season a little bit. The thing about Ant, that injury he had, Rich, you know it when you see it. Like, remember when KD had the Achilles problem? They said it was a calf and everyone knew it ain't a calf. Right. And then he did actually rupture his Achilles. That what happened to Ant in that game. And they were like, oh, it's a bone bruise when your leg bends past the knee this way. There's no way he should be playing right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then not only to come maybe by game. First of all, I thought his season's over. His career can be affected by this. Then you start hearing he could come back in these playoffs. I thought, but not in the next series. Then you started hearing he. He could be back in game three. I'm like, yeah, well, they're going to lose the first two games. Then he comes back for game one, drops 18 points, and they win by like a possession because Ant is in the game. That is.

[B]

Well, let's.

[A]

He's showing something right now.

[B]

Yes, he is, but you got to be careful. But he's showing something. Yeah, he is.

[A]

He is showing like, he. I'm starting to think, like, it's possible he could wind up the best player in the NBA one day. It's hard because Wemby's in the league, but when you see something like this, it's like a toughness that's like Kobe or MJ level toughness.

[B]

One day you'll listen to me. Max, do you think that the complaints of the blocks is fair, though, on Wemby? What's your thoughts about that?

[A]

Oh, this is what's. You know what's so funny about that. He had 12 blocks. Right. So you can find video of one or two of them as probably a goaltent. Cause they're saying, oh, a lot of these are goal tens. But think about this for a second. This is funny to me. If you took any 12 blocks in the NBA, even from different players in any given night, one or two of them probably be goaltens. Right, Right. In other words, the.

[B]

Out of 12.

[A]

Out of 12.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Of course. The reason people think, oh, well, it's unfair. Wemby gets these goal 10 calls is because no one else is blocking 12 shots in a game.

[B]

But also 12 shots. Wemby's blocks, some of them are going to always be close because he has the potential to be at the apex of every shot. He's just that tall and quick where

[A]

it looks like he wouldn't be able to do it.

[B]

I know what wasn't a goal 10. The one he missed and then blocked with his other hand. So forget about all that. Like there's no good. There's no such thing.

[A]

I know they lost and Wemby had an awful offensive game. But the reason I think he's the best player in the NBA. Not Joker. Who else? Not sga. The reason I think it's Wemby Rich. He had a bad offensive game and they figured this out in the middle of the season. When they throw different looks at him like Julius Randle, when you put a little fire hydrant under him, it can disrupt them a little different. He has to figure that out. Yeah, but so 11 points, come on. You can't be a superstar seven and wind up with 11 playoff points. But then 12 blocks on the other and double digit.

[B]

No, he affects the game. He's impactful. But I think, I think, and again, I know we kind of go along, but I think that the spurs are going to have to play a different style here. A little bit like the free flowing offense. You got to make the, when guys are as athletic as the Timberwolves are, you got to make them think, think you got to shift the defense. You know, you got to put guys in pick and roll actions and different things to, to get some of the opportunities that you're looking for because they have a lot of. Not specialists, but they have guys that can really shoot the ball on the floor. But you need your playmakers to, to, to make those guys shift. So I, I, it'll be interesting to

[A]

see Harper and Fox.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, de' Aaron's gonna have to really take a step this next game and really I thought he, I thought he started to show it a little bit, but it was kind of too late. It was more so like the middle of the fourth quarter. Like the five minute mark.

[A]

He hit a big three.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But I think you gotta come out in the beginning of the game with that because they'll follow his lead there

[A]

and it'll make the offense more like. It didn't really look like they had much of an offensive plan. It wasn't cohesive.

[B]

Casso fouled out, which is big, especially down the stretch. And so look, it's game one. This is. This is. This is. When you talk about the spurs, you. You do talk about that playoff experience. And even for De', Aon, this is first time getting to the second round. Each round gets harder. I think what people underestimate about the Timberwolves is they've been here. They've been here the last three years.

[A]

Conference finals.

[B]

The last three years they've been here. So they do have the experience.

[A]

Two times to the conference finals.

[B]

Yeah, so they do have the experience. But, Max, are the Knicks the best team in the NBA right now?

[A]

That's the question. Because team is the operative word there. I thought the Knicks would be.

[B]

Should the Knicks forget that? I'm not letting you off the hook, okay? Should the Knicks win the championship this

[A]

year, this is the best chance they're going to have. This is the best chance in my lifetime. The only other time they had a better chance than this was 94, when they lost.

[B]

When they lost to the Rockets.

[A]

But like, even people forget, game six, John Starks got a three off, would have won the game. And Olajuwon got his fingertip on it. Barely, barely. And then they went to a game seven and Hakeem balled out. That's the best chance they ever had to win a chip. This is the second best chance in my lifetime. But, Rich, the word is really team. I took the Knicks going in to beat Atlanta in six games. We both thought it was going to be an extended tough series, and it was. But when I thought the Knicks would close it out in Game 6, because while the Hawks were barely beating them, the Knicks were beating the Hawks by bigger and bigger margins. They had that historic game where they, you know, the hawks scored like 11 points. And over the course of two games or whatever that was, they blew the Knicks blew them out. And then they blew him out again to finish the series. And then they just blew out Philly. They, like the Knicks, are playing the best team basketball both sides of the floor of anyone in the NBA right now. However, the Sixers were coming off an extended series. There wasn't a lot of downtime, and they were playing a rested Knicks team. So.

[B]

Okay, so I gotta get rich quick break before we get to the quick hits. Yeah, that was a little quick and quick. Yeah. So my get rich quick is the adjustments for the losing teams. Okay, Sixers, that was a scheduled loss.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Coming off the high of beating Boston on the road, game seven, you go right into New York. That's a scheduled loss. I think the six, the Way they lost. Yeah, I think the Sixers will, Will. Will be better prepared tonight and I think it'll be a different, a different game. I don't think It'd be a 30 point differential. I don't think so. As far as the Cavaliers, my point is I think playing through Mobley for this series could be helpful to them. And I think Mobley has the talent level and the skill set that could not necessarily say he needs to score 40 points. That's not the case. But I think he could attack the defense from a different point on the different point of attack on the floor, which allows pinch post.

[A]

What are you talking about?

[B]

Pinch post? Side picking rolls, you know, getting him the ball in different spots to where he can. Because Mobley can, you know, he can put the ball on the floor, he can, he can beat his man off. He's not going to be able to play a physical game, especially if they put Duran on him. But if they have like a Tobias Harris, then he has an advantage. So in the playoffs, you have to play with the advantage. And I think from there the Donovans and the James, because Donovan and James are really good catch and shoot guys too. So they can figure that out. I think that'll be a different, different one. But the Cavs need to win. The Cavs need to win one in Detroit. Lakers got to play perfect basketball. That's just. It is what it is. You got to play perfect basketball. And for the spurs, the spurs, they are, they're going to have to come out with a little bit more precision right away, set the tone you're playing against. This team is physical, it's athletic. They got no back down in them. I mean, Mike Conley, who's been in the league for 25 years, has he hit a three in the corner? That's still Mike Conley. He's been in the league for so long and he's been steady in the league for so long to the point to where Mike Conley, people don't remember. Mike Conley was traded this year, I believe, and somehow he came back because they know what he means in that locker room. Everybody in that locker room respects him. And yeah, he's not playing the minutes he once played, but when he's on the floor, that experience that he brings to that team, you know, you got to come to play against the Timberwolves. They're not going to lay down.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So I thought this series was a little bit more evenly, not evenly matched, but I thought this series was closer

[A]

than I thought it would be. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But to be fair, I thought it would be a tough series, but I just didn't assume Ant was going to play. And if he did play, I assumed it wouldn't be to the middle of the series. By then they'd be buried.

[B]

It's still a long series. But. But you. You got to. Minnesota is a lot like OKC again. It's the second round of the playoffs. You got to play hard every possession anyway. But. But you got to. You got to be tough.

[A]

Could you imagine if Minnesota went all. By the way. Without divincenzel? It's not going to happen. But could you imagine if they went all the way?

[B]

Yeah, I can.

[A]

It's possible.

[B]

Yeah, it's possible. Any. Any. A few of the teams left can actually win, right?

[A]

It's a big night in the NBA with San Antonio trying to even the series with Minnesota. I've got you covered with my picks on FanDuel and all playoffs long. FanDuel has the best same game parlay pricing in the game. So if you're riding with your favorite players, make sure to head to FanDuel. Here's what I like Minnesota to cover their nine and a half point underdogs. They just won game one. Ant is back and didn't even play his best yet. But has shown you he can affect the game. Man, I think that spread is too wide. I think Minnesota covers Wemby. He was held to 11 points. WEMBY is going to score 20 is going to score more than 20 points. I'm being conservative with this. I didn't take WEMBY 25 or 30 points. Just 20 points for WEMBY. I think that's a safe bet. Also. The man just had 12 blocks in a game. Divide that by two half that then take away another block. That's still five blocks. Five plus blocks for Wemby. I like that. I think that's good value. Anthony edwards at least two threes made. Ant's going to hit two threes. The total parlay is plus 458. The bet will be live in the FanDuel lap. I think I went conservative here. I think with four leg parlays you go conservative. Don't forget to check out great offers. They'll have all playoffs as well. Reason you can go conservative, you should go conservatives on parlays is because there's a payoff. Just keep putting the bets on things, things you think will actually happen. You don't have to go for the crazy odds. Plus458 FanDuel play your game. Let's do emails and voicemails.

[B]

No, we gotta do some quick hits.

[A]

You wanna do quick hits?

[B]

We have to.

[A]

Yeah, we've been going a long time. All right, let's do quick hits.

[B]

That's fine, but we can.

[A]

Oh, here we go. When is it a good time to make a relationship IG official, Rich?

[B]

Never.

[A]

Never.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Don't put your business on the street.

[B]

No way. I mean, that's not my cup of tea, Max.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I'll be honest with you. Like, not just your relationship. I don't. Kids. That's just not my cup of tea.

[A]

I agree with that.

[B]

Keep your kids off IG from a relationship standpoint. I mean, you put all this stuff out there. What if it don't work out? Then you got to take it all back down. I just think when. I mean, that's just me. It's just not my cup of tea.

[A]

Put all the. You're in. You're on the boat in Greece somewhere.

[B]

No, I'm not doing. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't put my life in general. Very few things I put on. On ig. Just in general. I don't. I don't love that. Just in general. Every now and then I'll do it if I'm going to an event or Definitely work stuff. You know, I use the clutch sports group ig. That's my. That's my ig. Like the. But little work stuff. I'll have a little. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer. I have a little fun every now and then. But the. The relationship piece of it.

[A]

Do you know what I saw? You know what I saw probably on IG recently? How social media, how these kids now are coming of age and embarrassing moments and everything in their lives. Like, used to just be your family photo album, but parents have been putting that content online now, of course, a lot of kids are coming up, like their most embarrassing moments or in their lives.

[B]

And by the way, you should have to ask your kid to do that. That's not cool.

[A]

Right, I agree.

[B]

You should have to ask your kid, can you. Can I put this up? Don't just assume that they want that up. That stuff lived on the Internet forever. And again, like I said, you put this big caption up there, you got to take it down.

[A]

Interesting legal question, actually.

[B]

You should.

[A]

Can you.

[B]

You should not be.

[A]

Should there be protections?

[B]

Yes, there should be.

[A]

For someone of consenting age in terms of their likeness and image and all that. Stuff should you need. Should there be legal protections for kids against their parents making images of them public online?

[B]

Yes, there should be. You should not be able to do that because you can't.

[A]

Once they become. Once they're of age, they could be like, I don't want that stuff out.

[B]

And here's how it's affected. I know kids that will put a post up and take it down if you don't get enough likes, comments, different things. I don't put happy birthdays. I don't do any of that stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Count me out. No.

[A]

By the way, why weren't you at the Met Gala?

[B]

I wasn't invited. What? Yeah. And I have no fomo. I'm perfectly fine not being invited to

[A]

the Met Gala because you are.

[B]

Everyone was beautiful.

[A]

You are someone who always makes sure to say, I don't take for granted when I get access or when I get invited to a party. You always shout the person out, hey, thank you. I don't just take for granted because I'm.

[B]

I will thank Jeff and Lauren for. For inviting me to their event. I was not invited to Met Gala. I was not in New York, so that's why I was not there.

[A]

I see.

[B]

But outside of that, no, I wasn't.

[A]

Something on this show that you wore that they looked at and they were like, nah, man. Now.

[B]

No, not at all. Not at all.

[A]

You know who we got coming as a guest pretty soon, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Cameron Cam is coming on the show.

[A]

Cam and Mace got such a good show.

[B]

They have a really great show.

[A]

And what it is, is so good. I think. I think it is. What it is is the best new sports show.

[B]

It's hilarious.

[A]

I'm trying to think. I think, man, it's been years. What makes, like, a sport show that deals with sports, but what makes it

[B]

is what it is. Such a good show. I think I know what it is, but what do you think it is?

[A]

I think there. There are two factors. One, Cam and Mace approach it professionally, like a real show. They're not two guys saying, hey, let's just do a podcast to talk about whatever. It'll be great. There's structure to it. They have topics that they've prepared. They respond to the news cycle. It's a very professionally done thing. And then once you have that framework, you have two incredible personalities. They're both hilarious.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They have great chemistry. They known each other the whole lives, the whole thing. And so it's like when I saw PTI first time, new, like, really creative format, really original. Tony And Mike had known each other for years. It was like. It's like that. It's like that version, but a podcast.

[B]

I find it very interesting when talent becomes talent in a different vertical. Because Cam and Mase were. I mean, in their field.

[A]

Yeah, legends.

[B]

Yeah, it's Cam and Mace. But now in this field, it actually gives them an advantage because they can say whatever they want to say. And because they were talent and the talent in their other vertical, where they started their foundation, they don't have this understanding of. What I'm saying is even.

[A]

There's no sense out of bounds.

[B]

Nothing. No, no. Which makes their show very authentic.

[A]

You know what tipped me off about how they approach it too, even within that, like how they take it like a real job. It's not like business suit and tie, but rich. It is. Well, it is suit and tie.

[B]

Here's the thing. There's a business suit and tie comes with different flavors. Like Wingstop business suit and tie. You could be lemon pepper or you could be dry rubbed. You know, so if you. In corporate America. I'm in those that may just be, you know, it's a blue or black suit, white shirt, blue tie. But when you coming from, you know, that's what that.

[A]

But that's what I mean, Harlem, they're doing different dynamic. They're doing their version. But the point is there's thought into it and they're treating it. They're treating the show with respect.

[B]

Yes. They're not. They're not disrespecting the field by just doing.

[A]

No, they're getting. They're put like what.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Might be a pinstripe approach to the soup.

[B]

Is correct.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yes, I agree.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So, yeah, so we. So we're gonna have Cameron.

[B]

Do we have a voicemail? Yeah, Cameron is coming on and I'm excited about the show and I want to make it a good show. Max, I don't want you up here rapping. That's not what we're doing. I'm just being honest. Cause you tried to say something about me with the Met gala. One thing we're not going to do, we're not going to have you up here rapping. We don't want to hear Max rap.

[A]

I've never tried to rap on this show.

[B]

You always try to rap off camera.

[A]

Never. Never happened.

[B]

Now I don't have two ears once or twice. Okay, thank you.

[A]

All right, listen, if you want to leave a voicemail. 4242-4083-4142-4240, 83, 41.

[B]

And if you want to win some money, play 8, 3, 41 in the pick four, because guess what? I played it yesterday.

[A]

Did you win?

[B]

I caught. You know when I played my number,

[A]

you did not hit eight.

[B]

I didn't say I won. I don't. I didn't check the number. But I'm telling you, when I play my number, I call my store back home in Cleveland, K and S. These are my brothers. These are my brothers, Mo and Mike and Jason. These are. These are my. Like the brothers from another mother. We grew up. Their father owned a store, Big Mike. My dad owned the store, Big Rich. We grew up together. So these are my brothers.

[A]

Did your dad have a name for his store?

[B]

Yeah, RJ Confectionary.

[A]

Rich, you know, you know what you should do? What is recreate that and LA somewhere and call it R and J Confectionary and open it up and then you just got to think of what you're actually going to sell in it.

[B]

Well, you want to invest with me? I'll do it.

[A]

Yeah, I'll do it.

[B]

It could be pretty cool, actually. What it should be is it should look like my dad's store in the front, but inside in the back be a pizza parlor.

[A]

Right? Something.

[B]

Something really cool for us to hang out. Good music, you know, affordable pizza. Not like this $90 pie. Right, right. And people can have a good time. That's actually a good idea, Max. See, that's why we're partners. So. But, but, but I can actually. I called them. I don't need any money. I call, they just bill me later and I play my number. I've been doing this for years. When I want to play a number, so I. I call back home and do it. So.

[A]

All right, let's play some. Let's play some voicemails.

[B]

We got a voicemail already. Yeah, I was playing Hope is in English. Hey, Rich and Max, this is Trey from la. My question is for Max. I've been following you since day one of around the Horn and I want to ask. I think what a lot of people want to ask is why don't you rap anymore, man?

[A]

We want to hear you rap. Are you too old or what?

[B]

Thank you, Trey from la. Goodbye.

[A]

Because I was. Because I. Because you could find someone as good as me on every corner in New York City. My brother had the town.

[B]

Well, at least he's self aware. We don't need. Need Max rapping.

[A]

But what we should do, Max, if I spit some of my brother's stuff, it's just not.

[B]

It's called plagiarism.

[A]

I'm just saying. But I'm. No, I give him credit. Then you would see and the rhymes are 30 years old, still burned down in rap.

[B]

We're going to do some BTs, we're going to go in the booth and you can spit your brother stuff because I didn't get to meet your brother.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I know what he meant to you. Yeah, and that's great. You spit your rhymes and I'll spit my own rhymes.

[A]

All right. All right, we got another one. Hey, what's up? I wanted to ask if y' all

[B]

had thoughts on the territorial draft and bringing that back.

[A]

I see a lot of international talent coming in and I feel like over time we'll see the US Fan get a little disconnected from the game. Maybe that's not the case. People love Wendy, for example. People love Giannis, for example. But as more and more players are

[B]

born overseas, I'm curious how that changes the US and interest in the US viewership. So I'm curious your thoughts on the on a territorial draft, bringing that back.

[A]

What could that look like and what would be the consequences?

[B]

Oh no, no, no, no no no. There's no territorial draft. No talent can this the best can come from anywhere. So. Nope.

[A]

On the other hand, it would make teams invest in the re in like the infrastructure in the region. You would want to bring prospect. It would. It would give NBA teams a stake in really investing in youth sports in that region and doing it the right way because you want good players.

[B]

Ryan Smith is doing that without the

[A]

territorial draft and then rich that team at least would have their hometown product for the first X number of years of their career.

[B]

No, but you got to hope that that talent comes from that place. No, if I have an opportunity to draft somebody and the talent is three states over, I want that talent. I'm not. No, I'm not taking that chance.

[A]

All right, let's do some emails. Let's do some in today's NBA stars have social media global followers, player led media companies, equity deals and much wider business toolkit than previous generations did. My question is if you could go. If you could go both go back and pick one player from a previous era before this modern ecosystem existed and manage their careers. If they were coming up today, whose IP would you most want to build around and what kind of long term global business would you try to create with them beyond the court? Really enjoy a game over from here in Spain. Love the way you connect hoops business and culture best, Jamie.

[B]

Oh, nice. I would take Shaq and Jaime maybe. Yeah, I would say yes, he's in Spain. Jaime. I would take Shaq and AI. Shaq has proven, though. He's shown. I mean, Shaq has done a great job of. Yeah, everything.

[A]

Yeah, he's doing it now. I don't know if Shaq. You can count Shaq because he, he's.

[B]

He's actually, no, I want to count Shaq because Shaq has a lot of money and I. What do you mean?

[A]

So it needs to be someone with a personality.

[B]

Mine would be. No, in all one. Mine would be Allen Iverson.

[A]

I got one.

[B]

I said this before. Mine would be AI because the. And the. Give it context. The reason why I say AI is because it hasn't been that long. Where the. The long ago where the athlete had to have all things in order to be impactful and AI actually had it. AI infected, impacted culture, fashion. He was someone that resonated throughout the hip hop world. I mean, there would be like five people at the game in Cleveland at the Gund arena. Except for when the Sixers played. When the Sixers played, it sold out. And not only is it sold out, there was a time where there was a bar inside the arena. When AI played, people just came to the bar.

[A]

AI is the right answer, right, AI, you're not going to do better than AI.

[B]

So it's AI for me. And I think that AI would have had the ability to build adjacent businesses, be a part of deal flow. You know, he comes into a room, he would be celebrated in every room because he's relatable and people liked him. And that's the thing, Max. I think people have to realize no matter what your fame is or stature is, there's two type of people. One that's celebrated, meaning when you come into a room, people say, hey, Max. Hey, good to see you. And one that's tolerated, you come into the room is like, yo, what's up, Max?

[A]

Which one am I?

[B]

You're somewhere in the middle. No, you're celebrating. When I see Max, I love to see Max. I'm like, yeah, I like talking to Max. We go to games, hang out. But that's true. So, you know, regardless of anything, I think that's a character thing of how you treat other people and so on and so forth. I would want to be celebrated. I don't want to be tolerated. If I have to be tolerated, I'd rather not be there.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I. I got another. I got a pick for You. But it's kind of. I'm kind of copying your AI Pick, but I'll go way back. And he didn't win enough is the problem. But like Lamelo Ball had a big brand even before they were winning, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pistol Pete. Oh, Pistol Pete would have been Pistol, because Pistol Pete, the two players he

[B]

could have been Arnold Palmer of basketball or the Jack Nicholas of basketball.

[A]

The two players you watch from back then where you're like, come on, why weren't they. The biggest star in the world were him and Earl the Pearl. If you watch Pistol Pete or you watch Earl the Pearl, you're like, wait, this. Someone transported someone from today who's nice drop them 50 years ago.

[B]

Pistol Pete's a good one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also Larry Bird. I think I could have done a lot with Larry Bird.

[A]

A whole lot. If.

[B]

If you can. But Larry's the type of guy.

[A]

That's the thing you do better with Magic, because Magic has that. He don't. Larry didn't want it.

[B]

Larry didn't want.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. All right.

[B]

Okay, R.P. get to Detroit now. Take you out to my club. Uh oh, Oakland Hills on the south course. Your game has to be in shape though. Who said this? Yeah, I want answers. I need this guy's email.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, can we get. Can we get Rich the email? You guys are golf invite.

[B]

Max and I are coming to J. Detroit.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So all day so. And then we'll. We'll play the south course. Bring your clubs.

[A]

Max. Max and Rich, a lot of talk lately on how this Thunder group is one of the best teams of all time. Who'd win a seven game series between the 2013 Heat and this Thunder team? Jalen, the Heat. Stop it. By the way, the 2013 heat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wins that series. Although Rich, I got to tell you something about that Heat team. They were not as unbeatable as they should have been. They won two chips, they went to four. But. And maybe it's because they didn't have the. Like, the Thunder is a deeper team.

[B]

No, but also the thing about though that.

[A]

But I like the Heat team.

[B]

Yes. The thing about the four year run with the Heat, you got to remember back then because they were so top heavy with Bosh, Brian and Wade in terms of salary each year they am. See Mike Miller. Right. But each year you had to scratch and claw for different guys to come in.

[A]

Vets who just wanted to play with LeBron.

[B]

Yeah, well, people taking less, not even taking less. You had to convince somebody to play in Miami so you can Get a ring championship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At the expense of them only getting $2.4 million.

[A]

Dude, there are a gang of players who I don't even think of as having won championships because. Because they played their whole career somewhere else and then signed with that Heat team and got a ring.

[B]

Right. So every year, every year that was an issue that, you know, that Heat team prevented, that 2013 team prevented Tracy McGrady from getting the ring.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Tracy McGrady was on that spurs team.

[A]

Yep. You know, and that also, that was because the spurs never went back to back. It's like you don't think of any one year, maybe one year of them as being this unbeatable juggernaut, but they kind of were like, that spurs team was so good.

[B]

Yeah. But again, like, it's hard to do that because those players coming in on those low salaries are players that you're also counting on to be when you

[A]

think of that spurs team. Rich, why didn't the Detroit Pistons win back to back championships after the 04 championship? Right? Cause they, they played the Spurs. Because they played the Spurs. Why didn't the Heat win four or three straight? Why didn't they three peat? Because of the Spurs.

[B]

They played the Spurs. Yeah.

[A]

You know, all these teams in the west, why didn't Kobe and Shaq have even more championships? Right. That Tim Duncan spurs dynasty was just. Because they never went back to back. It's not thought of the same way as some other dynasties, but damn.

[B]

But you got to dig even deeper as it pertains to that Tim Duncan spurs team, how they were constructed, how they drafted.

[A]

Right.

[B]

How they signed guys in free agency. If you, if you just go, we should do that one day. If you just go back and, and look at everything that was done to stay competitive at the highest level. I mean, they took a guy. Do you realize KAWHI Leonard went 15th in the draft? Yeah, 15th.

[A]

You know, just now when we were talking about the Spurs, I wasn't even thinking of Kawhi. I was thinking of. I was thinking of Duncan and David Robinson. Then I was thinking of Duncan Parker and Ginobili and I wasn't even thinking of Kawhi Leonard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Insane.

[B]

They traded.

[A]

You could take Kawhi Leonard and sick him on whoever was the best perimeter player on the other team.

[B]

That's all he had to worry about.

[A]

And that's.

[B]

He didn't even have to worry about scoring.

[A]

And if he happened to drop 20. Great, great.

[B]

That's why it was so. I'm not going to say Easy. But it was easier to do those things because the team had to worry about Tony Manufacturer and Tim. Then you got this guy.

[A]

Then you literally have.

[B]

And he's on a rookie deal.

[A]

By the way, in the history of basketball, if you're asking someone to play one on one perimeter, defense on a wing, you cannot do better than Kawhi. The best you can do is match him.

[B]

No, he. And he's on. And he's on a rookie deal.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

They traded George Hill to Indiana for him.

[A]

And by the way, he was a nice player.

[B]

The George Hill trade for Indiana also became a team that the Heat had to beat every year to get there. So, again, but anyway.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Great show, Max. Yeah.

[A]

I think. I think we've done more than we did like two shows today.

[B]

Well, great. Listen, when you roll, it's good. The people like it.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

I've been hearing a lot of people say they like the show.

[A]

So you got a golf invite?

[B]

No, no golf today, man.

[A]

I don't know. You got a golf invite on.

[B]

Oh, I did get a golf invite, but the guy didn't leave his email. Oakland Hills, right, The south course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I'll do my diligence.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't even care if the sand traps don't have any sand in.

[A]

Listen, if you want to hang out, invite him to play golf with you.

[B]

That is a fact.

[A]

Yeah, that's a fact.

[B]

That is a fact.

[A]

It's a fact. And by the way, time and place barely matters. No, he'll just fuel up the.

[B]

I'll come to Mexico City.

[A]

He'll be right there.

[B]

Well, I don't know about a clutch jet. It's called Delta.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Delta Airlines, same thing. Yes. Good logo. I might change the clutch logo to, like, the Delta logo. No, because I don't have enough money for that lawsuit.

[A]

Do the right thing here. Spend a little money on the show. You know what I mean?

[B]

Great show, Max.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Looking forward to Cameron.

[A]

Yeah, for sure.

[B]

And I'll see you on Friday.

[A]

For sure. Yeah.

[B]

Good games tonight. I'll be tuned in.

[A]

Oh, man, all these playoffs have been bananas.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[B]

Game [e-mail]. thanks for the voicemails. The email.

[A]

424-2408341 for the voicemail. You see, we're going to get to him right away.

[B]

We're going to get to him. Yeah. You're playing to pick four. I'm just telling you. 83 for the vacation money.

[A]

Yeah. I don't even have to look at that because you drilled 83, 41, 41, yeah 21 and over in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gas gambling problem call 1-800- gambler or 1-800- my reset, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChattinConnecticut or visit mdg.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-550. For 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hopeny or text hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.

[B]

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[A]

You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.