The Madness Continues, Hornets Heating Up, and Aaron Judge’s Golden Sombrero

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode Summary: "The Madness Continues, Hornets Heating Up, and Aaron Judge’s Golden Sombrero"

Released: March 27, 2026
Hosts: Max Kellerman, Rich Paul
Podcast by: The Ringer

---

Overview

This lively episode finds Max Kellerman and Rich Paul in full sports and culture mode, riffing on everything from NCAA basketball’s big stories and memorable backcourts to a deep dive on the Charlotte Hornets’ transformation and the nature of sports “clutch.” The duo’s distinctive blend of pop culture references, playful banter, and hard-nosed sports insight makes for a fast-paced, idea-rich conversation aimed at hoops heads, baseball fans, and anyone interested in what makes athletes and teams truly elite.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pop Culture Warm-Up: From Tears for Fears to Air Max

• Max and Rich reminisce about '80s music, the difference between "boxes" and "boomboxes," and the Friday film franchise.
• Max jokes about "Air Max Day," claiming a special connection to the Nike Air Max:

  “When you hear the name Max, you think of someone else.” (02:22)

• The hosts have fun imagining themselves as characters in a possible "Friday Part Four," with Rich as Craig or Day Day and Max as Smokey.

---

2. The Art of the Sophomore Album (Music & Film Parallels) [04:29 – 09:45]

• Rich draws a parallel between sequels in films (Friday, Next Friday) and second albums in hip-hop.
• Greatest sophomore albums and “sequels” in hip-hop — Nas ("It Was Written"), Jay-Z, Outkast, Beanie Sigel, UGK, and more.
• A mini-debate: Is Nas’s "It Was Written" a classic?
  • Max: “But the sense was… Nas was so far ahead of the game, then the industry caught up more. By the second one… the game had caught up more. So it didn’t stand out as much as Illmatic.” (06:49)
  • Rich: “There’s records on It Was Written that I guarantee you people still don’t understand. You could take this record and put it in front of a classroom.” (07:10)

---

3. NCAA Tournament: Arizona’s Dominance & What Makes a Champion [11:36 – 21:20]

• Max and Rich rave about Arizona:
  • Max: “Arizona is the best team in the country. They're going to win the whole thing.” (11:36)
  • Krevas is singled out as Arizona’s true X-factor: “He is the eraser of all mistakes… he’s the key to their team.” (12:12)
• Detailed discussion of team dynamics, basketball IQ, and offensive patience:
  • Rich: “In college, you need really good guard play. And what I notice… the difference between understanding what a really good shot is and a great shot.” (13:15)
• Both hosts praise Arizona’s discipline, unselfishness, and high NBA potential.
• Nuanced evaluation of Acuff:
  • Max: “Acuff had a bad game... I think a lot—the reason I say Krivos is his presence... shot alterer… I don’t see how [Arizona] loses.” (14:38)
• Draft talk: Rich favors Caleb Wilson as a future star and defends his draft acumen:
  • Rich: “If you talk to anybody that know basketball… you haven’t even seen the car go past 25 miles an hour.” (16:12)

---

4. Coaching, Chemistry, and “Culture” in Successful Teams [21:20 – 29:06]

• Rich’s "Get Rich Quick": Greatest NCAA backcourts—the kind that change the game.
  • Picks include: Ed Cota/Shamon Williams, Bobby Sura/Charlie Ward/Sam Cassell, Jameer Nelson/Delonte West, Bibby/Simon, and Sue Bird/Diana Taurasi.
  • Max: “Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi… the team went 39 and 0… you have two future all-time great Hall of Famers.” (26:20)
  • Notable banter on New York roots and crossing into women’s hoops history.

---

5. NBA Breakdown: Charlotte Hornets On the Rise [32:03 – 42:31]

• Deep dive on the Hornets’ remarkable late-season surge:
  • Max: “The Hornets starting five has been the best starting five unit in the NBA over the last couple months. Like by the numbers.” (32:09)
• Spotlight on rookies and “culture setters”:
  • Khan Knipple’s shooting prowess compared to Steph Curry:

    “The thing about Khan is he doesn't need to be square to the basket. It's like Steph in the sense that wherever he gets the ball, there's a threat... it's going to go in.” (33:14)

  • LaMelo Ball described as a superstar—“makes what looks like a bad shot.”
• Rich emphasizes maturity, patience, and youth/IQ blend:
  • Rich: “If you have youth that possesses IQ… add skill and talent… they're going to be a tough out.” (37:10)
• Max draws parallels between peer pressure, energy, and team chemistry:

  “You're talking about peer pressure really… there can be good peer pressure.” (39:58)

• Praise for the Hornets' consistent drafting and development:

  “They assembled real talent. And now that real young talent is growing together and doing it the right way.” (41:01)

---

6. Celtics, Knicks, and Playoff Clutch: Who’s Really Built for the Run? [42:46 – 47:27]

• Boston Celtics and their playoff outlook—are they the favorites in the East?
  • Discussion turns on player health (Tatum, Vucevic), big-man decision-making, and playoff IQ.
• Knicks’ growth: Max argues their 6 key players—Brunson, OG, Cat, Hart, Bridges, Mitchell Robinson—are all "championship players."
  • Rich: “In a tough series, if there was two guys that I do not worry about in the postseason, it’s Bridges and Hart.” (46:44)
• Both hosts view Sixers as a dangerous sleeper if healthy.

---

7. 5-Minute Max: Aaron Judge, The "Clutch" Spectrum, and Sports Legends [47:55 – 58:03]

• Max’s “five-minute max” dives into statistical and philosophical analysis of clutch:
  • Judge’s opening day woes (Golden Sombrero: 0 for 5, 4Ks).
  • Max: “Aaron Judge is so much better than Shohei Ohtani offensively… his performance under pressure is significantly worse… The fact is, Tatum in the Finals has not always been his normal self.” (49:10-49:46)
• The “Seven Levels of Clutch”:
  1. GOATs who elevate even higher (e.g., MJ, Mariano Rivera)
  2. Greats who reach another gear under pressure (e.g., Schilling, Fernando, El Duque)
  3. Greats who are at least their normal selves in the big moments (Brady, Kobe, Jeter)
  4. Role players who get huge in the clutch (Robert Horry, Luis Soho)
  5. Stars who underperform when it counts (early Peyton Manning, pre-2020 Steph Curry)
• Rich quizzes Max about NFL examples:
  • Kirk Cousins cited as “good in the regular season, not enough in the playoffs.”
  • Josh Allen discussed as “needs to get over the hump, unfair to judge fully yet.”

---

8. Trademark Feuds & The Power of Nicknames [60:15 – 62:47]

• Discussion of the controversy: Caleb Williams attempting to trademark “Iceman,” George Gervin’s nickname.
  • Rich: “Let that be George Gervin...Be the dice man.“
  • Lighthearted debate about nicknames, swag, and what “Riz” means generationally.

---

9. Fan Email & Advice for Young Professionals [62:47 – 70:30]

• Reflecting on home-cooked meals and family food traditions.
• Listener asks: What do young people overthink in the industry?
  • Rich: “They care so much about what they’re being paid and someone else is being paid... they miss out on creating value.” (67:41)
  • Max: “Learn how to write really well. The thing that that means, you can think clearly… you can go deeper.” (69:08)

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Max: “Khan Knipple... I want him shooting. At the end of the day… if you said you want some guy to take the shot, Khan—just… we'll find out if I'm right or wrong.” (34:26)

• Rich (on Arizona): “There's a kid who was a starter last year... he's not hanging his head, he's not moping... these type of things matter when you’re on the road to winning a championship.” (14:07)

• Max (on clutch): “Aaron Judge is so much better than Shohei Ohtani offensively... even Ohtani’s pitching doesn’t make up the difference. Judge is better than Ohtani.” (49:13)

• Rich: “If you have youth that possesses IQ… you’re in pretty good shape.” (37:10)

• Max (on Knicks): “When you look at those three guys [Hart, Bridges, Robinson], are those championship players? I think they are.” (46:04)

---

Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Highlight | |--------------|------------| | 02:22 | Max’s Air Max claim, cultural banter | | 04:29-09:45 | “Sophomore Album” debate | | 11:36 | Arizona is “the team to beat” in NCAA | | 14:38 | Detailed analysis of Acuff and Arizona | | 21:20 | Rich’s “Get Rich Quick”—best college backcourts | | 26:20 | Max: “Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi… 39-0” | | 32:03 | Hornets section begins—NBA chemistry talk | | 37:10 | Rich on youth/IQ culture | | 42:46 | Celtics/Knicks/Playoff clutch discussion | | 47:55 | Max’s “Five-Minute Max” on Aaron Judge & clutch | | 60:15 | Gervin/Williams “Iceman” nickname dispute | | 67:41 | Rich’s advice: create value, don’t overthink pay | | 69:08 | Max’s advice: “Learn how to write really well.” |

---

Episode Tone & Flow

• Conversational and playful, full of 1980s/1990s references and good-natured teasing
• Insightful on sports analysis; both hosts mix pop culture and technical acumen
• Warm and personal when discussing food, family, and life advice
• Engaged with fans—reads and answers listener email, seeking more input

---

For New Listeners

This episode is a masterclass in blending sports, music, culture, and life lessons. Max and Rich toggle effortlessly between the NCAA’s brightest stars, hip-hop’s greatest seconds, NBA youth movements, MLB’s legends, and what it truly means to be “clutch”—all while keeping it real, entertaining, and packed with wisdom and memorable moments. Whether you're tracking March Madness or debating which player you'd trust most with the final shot, this conversation will leave you laughing, thinking, and hungry for more.

Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

This episode is brought to you by Loom. When your calendar is all status meetings and your teams are still misaligned, it's easy to feel stuck. Get your org unstuck with Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian. Record a Loom to share priorities, feedback, and key decisions. AI makes video editing one click and adds instant summaries so everyone from direct reports to partner teams gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. With Loom, teams stay aligned and focus on work that matters. It's a team changer. Try Loom [e-mail]. Max, listen, you just sat down and played a classic.

[Rich Paul]

I know.

[Max Kellerman]

Tears for Fears.

[Rich Paul]

Tears for Fears, Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what's crazy about Tears for Fears? What if you went back to the 80s?

[Rich Paul]

You get on a. I wish I could go back to the 80s on

[Max Kellerman]

a train or a bus in New York City somewhere, and you could see, like, a B boy get on, like, official, like, head to toe. You could see it with a box. Right. Because they call them boom boxes now. Back then, you just say a box and he'd have a box. Whatever. And Tears for Fears would be like. You know, that was. That song was every. That whole album was everywhere.

[Rich Paul]

No, they call them boomboxes because if you just say box, it's like you carrying a cardboard box around.

[Max Kellerman]

But it's kind of like people nowadays call it break dancing, but back then, they just called it breaking. Yeah, right. They called. Now they say boom boxes. Back then, they just said boxes.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, they had a great vibe. Yeah, but, Max, it's Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You don't have no job and you don't have no money. So what are we going to do?

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, listen, Rich, first of all, you didn't even mention the. You didn't mention what I'm wearing.

[Rich Paul]

No, no. Let me get to it.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, good.

[Rich Paul]

No, I was gonna say you look like you got a job, but I know you don't have a job.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But you're pretty fly.

[Max Kellerman]

I like it. Yeah. This is Air Max. Yesterday was. Unfortunately, it didn't fall on a show day, but Air Max and I thought we should celebrate the fact that the most, like, famous, iconic kicks are Jordans and mines. Mine, like, right.

[Rich Paul]

What's your Air Max?

[Max Kellerman]

This is Air Max.

[Rich Paul]

Stop it, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Air Max.

[Rich Paul]

You claiming Air Max is now?

[Max Kellerman]

Who else?

[Rich Paul]

Oh, my God.

[Max Kellerman]

When you hear the name Max, you think of someone else.

[Rich Paul]

You are. Let me tell you what you are right now. We should do Friday Part four, me and you.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And you would play the role that Rickey Smiley played as Santa Claus. But you wouldn't be Santa Claus. You would be like. I don't know. What would you be? A rabbi?

[Max Kellerman]

Smokey. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You'd be Smokey.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, you would be smoking. You would be Smokey.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Who would I be? I'd be Craig.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you could be Craig.

[Rich Paul]

Sure. Or Dae Dae. I mean, I would be Day Daeg. I'll be Dayday.

[Max Kellerman]

That. That's one of the great franchises. Like to follow up the first one with the second. Even the third one was good.

[Rich Paul]

No, I love. I mean, if you haven't seen any of the Fridays, first of all, you were like, I don't know what planet you ever lived on.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And I've met people that have not seen Friday. I've met people.

[Max Kellerman]

The fact that he rides Craig the whole movie to smoke, and Craig is being so strict about not doing it,

[Rich Paul]

and finally he takes one hit and he goes.

[Max Kellerman]

And then we got. We gotta stick together. Is one of the funniest scenes in the history of movies.

[Rich Paul]

Max, the reason why I was playing that record is because I was thinking about something we had Snoop on.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

We didn't ask him this, but we should have.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, and I talked to somebody yesterday that's gonna be a guest. I'll tell you that later. Ha. Pretty good.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

I'm working.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you get out and about.

[Rich Paul]

You need to change my deal. I'm doing more work than you.

[Max Kellerman]

What?

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean?

[Max Kellerman]

Ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

You do the little. What would you do? You got to read the teleprompter thing. I'm actually getting people on the show.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, you're going out and having a good time, and then you're bumping into people while you're out.

[Rich Paul]

That's actually getting people on the show contributes. I'm impacting my good time by asking people to come on the show.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm being elevating your good time.

[Rich Paul]

Elevating, impacting, multiplying. Yeah, same thing. Long as not.

[Max Kellerman]

So what do you have in mind?

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Sophomore albums. Mr. Music man himself. How hard is it to follow up

[Max Kellerman]

a classic to be like, Friday? To have. To have next Friday?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. How hard is that in music?

[Max Kellerman]

How many next Fridays are there in music?

[Rich Paul]

I mean, name the artists.

[Max Kellerman]

So we're not talking about, like, Mobb Deep, who had a first record that people don't really remember as much and followed that up with a classic. Tupac Shook Ones, Part two.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Paul]

You mean.

[Rich Paul]

You mean the Part two Shook Ones was the better one, right? Yes. No, I'm saying great first album. Like Nas, hip hop. Illmatic was a classic first album.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

I think he did a great job of following it up with. It Was Written.

[Max Kellerman]

You think It Was Written was a classic.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Why do you. But here's the thing. So Ether and Takeover, right? Everyone thinks Nas got that nowadays, Especially the younger people think Nas got it because the Ether beat was so good.

[Rich Paul]

The beat was better. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But Jay, like Nas, just threw everything against the wall and saw what stuck, right? He just threw everything. Jay was so surgical. He brought and he gave Nas credit for the good things. So when he dissed him, it had extra weight. What'd he say on that record? One of the things he said that people were like was, two of them shits was due. One was eh. The other was Illmatic. Eh? He's talking about it was written. It was better than. I'm not saying it was eh. But the point is, he's saying he only had one. Illmatic.

[Rich Paul]

That's it. In battle. And he just said, here you go.

[Max Kellerman]

But it's not based. But he bases it on some. On a sense of truth, right?

[Rich Paul]

No, no, that's not. He's in battle, he's in competition. People said Michael Jordan was trash in competition. No, he wasn't. Yeah, I don't think anyone said that in competition. They probably did. Or the best players.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think so.

[Rich Paul]

You don't think they ever said, oh, well, probably not.

[Max Kellerman]

But. Probably not. But you hear stories now of guys

[Rich Paul]

like, probably not him.

[Max Kellerman]

If you went to sleep the night before and thought a bad thing about him, he would punish you the next day.

[Rich Paul]

No, but what I'm saying is there's been players or people that, you know were actually really good, but in the heat of. The heat of the moment, you said that person.

[Max Kellerman]

No, It Was Written was a great album. I understand.

[Rich Paul]

It Was Written was a great album.

[Max Kellerman]

But the sense was. Now let me say something about it. I think Nas was so far ahead of the game, then the industry caught up more. By the second one, like when you heard Illmatic, it was like, oh, my God, Cool G Rap and Rakim had a baby. Then by the time it was written came out, the game had caught up more. So it didn't stand out as much as Ilmatic.

[Rich Paul]

There's records on. It was written that I guarantee you people still don't understand. You could take this record and put it in front of a classroom and tell them to break it down and they would learn a lot more than they learn in these textbooks. But anyway, let's go Ice Cube.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Agreed.

[Rich Paul]

Drake.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep. He had good album after. Good album. Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, he's. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, you know, depending on.

[Rich Paul]

Or.

[Max Kellerman]

Great album. Yeah, yeah, for sure, Biggie. For sure.

[Rich Paul]

Jay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. Jay hasn't missed yet. Yeah. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

You. You won't know this. You won't know this ugk for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, listen, I know you're a huge ugk.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just. Yeah, yeah. Is factual.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. Outkast.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Beanie Siegel.

[Max Kellerman]

Yup. Beanie Siegel. I have to remember the second part.

[Rich Paul]

It was the reason and we gotta look it up. Game. The game. The game had a great one. You're the music man. Why are you looking at.

[Max Kellerman]

You're spitting them out pretty fast. I gotta think Wu Tang's follow up. The third and the fourth. No, but the second album.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm trying to think of within Wu. You know, you could say Ghost. The interesting thing about Ghost to me is he is a greater rapper than any of his albums. Like, you know, Ray and Ghost. But it's really Ray's record, Cuban Lynx.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Is. That's a classic. That. But Ghost does not have that one record that is as great as he is. Even though he's had classics.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Late registration.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

I know how he's missing that. He's also had a number of great albums in a row.

[Max Kellerman]

You're just spitting them out too fast.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying you can go.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I could go super old school if you want.

[Rich Paul]

You can also go Mary J. Blige if you want. Yeah, you can go.

[Max Kellerman]

You go EPMD or run DMC and stuff like that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, of course.

[Max Kellerman]

And that's true.

[Rich Paul]

That's when you was in your onesie.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, you wasn't the ones.

[Rich Paul]

You was in a. Oh, you wasn't the onesie. No, you was in a suit.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, no, I was like in elementary school and then in high school.

[Rich Paul]

Not when EPMD came.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, elementary school, high school.

[Rich Paul]

Elvis came out.

[Max Kellerman]

High school for epfd.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

High school for epmd. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

No. Okay, so. So basically there's been a number of guys to do it. And I know we're forgetting some, but there's a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm sure we're forgetting a lot.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But we'll let the viewers give us.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you can email, by the way. Game over.

[Rich Paul]

Max Kellerman and Rich Paul, game [e-mail]. ready to rock and roll, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Because we got emails to get to emails.

[Rich Paul]

We got ncaa.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

We got your Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I mean, really, that's not even about the Knicks, but we'll get to that in a second. You think it's about the Knicks?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just saying. I mean, you and Jacoby was blowing up my. I was having a nice dinner.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And you guys were talking about this game.

[Max Kellerman]

I was texting about the game.

[Rich Paul]

I was watching the game. Yeah, but I know I'm talking to two guys that are really whining about something that's happening to their team.

[Max Kellerman]

I really. I really wasn't even talking about the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you were. Yeah. You were doing it in a different way. Yeah. Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

This episode of Game over is presented to you by Loom. If your organization runs on endless email threads and status meetings, teams feel stuck unstuck them with Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian. Teams record their screen and share a link so others review on their own time. AI makes recording and editing one click and add summaries, action items and searchable transcripts so everyone gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. Replace unnecessary meetings, speed up approvals and onboard faster. With Loom, you remove communication friction. It's a team changer. Try loom [e-mail]. Rich we went to. We saw Arizona. Arizona is the best team in the country. They're going to win the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

Why are you taking my line? I told you that.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, who's the key to Arizona?

[Rich Paul]

Well, it's not Iguodala.

[Max Kellerman]

They have five.

[Rich Paul]

Although Iguodala did go to Arizona.

[Max Kellerman]

They have five of their starting five. You have four guys probably going to be drafted in the first round and a guy who thinks Crevas second. Krevis is the key to their team. KUS is. He's what he like. They. They might even if they didn't have him. They're as good as most teams, but he is the eraser of all mistakes. You make a mistake on offense, it doesn't matter. He's going to get the rebound. He's like. He's. He's seven foot.

[Rich Paul]

He has good touch. He has good iq.

[Max Kellerman]

Good iq.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, really good iq.

[Max Kellerman]

Touch pass.

[Rich Paul]

But so does all their bigs. Pete has good IQ and the guy who comes off number 30.

[Max Kellerman]

Number 30. Big boy.

[Rich Paul]

I'm telling you, he's an X factor.

[Max Kellerman]

That's your sixth, seventh man.

[Rich Paul]

But in college, you need really good guard play.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, they have it.

[Rich Paul]

And when I say really good guard play. I watched something last night because I watched the game. Me and Moses Was actually watching the game last night together and. When I noticed. What I notice in college a lot of times is the difference between understanding what a really good shot is and a great shot is interesting. And having patience offensively as a young player. Most guys in college, especially most guys in college that feel like, you know, nowadays I. They pay me a lot of money, nil. I have a ranking, etc. It takes a lot for them to understand how to play the game.

[Max Kellerman]

That's super interesting to know the difference. Have patience to not take the good shot, to wait for the great shot.

[Rich Paul]

Great shot. Yes. And I saw several times yesterday that Arizona could have came down and taken a shot. Just taken any shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

And they didn't. They actually ran the offense and they got a better shot. I saw big.

[Max Kellerman]

I saw they got a senior in their backcourt.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, Bradley.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Who's. Who's really good and really sure and a leader and all that stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Then they have. Everywhere else you look, buries and what's his name? Cart. I always forget his name.

[Rich Paul]

They have the kid that was. Here's another chat.

[Max Kellerman]

No, someone will tell me. Someone shouting his name. He's good on offense, defense, athletic, smart, the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

But so is number three. I think his name is Del Roso.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But again, there's a kid who was a starter last year, right. He's not hanging his head, he's not moping. He doesn't have bad body language when he gets in the game. He's smiling, he's making plays. These type of things matters when you on the road to winning the championship. Now we picked him to win it. As you know, there's several other great teams in the tournament that could possibly win it. But when I watch Arizona, that's what I noticed more than anything last night. And they made it tough on Arkansas. I mean, they made it really tough.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what else I gotta say? Acuff had a bad game. I know he wound up with. What was it? 28. But he had a bad game. And I think a lot. The reason I say Krivos is his presence on the floor. You can see it in the back of everyone's minds. He's a shot blocker. He's a shot deter. He deters guys from taking shots. He's a shot alterer because he's on the floor before he even does anything. Before he actually. And he does play deep defense and he hustles and he can score in the post and he can shoot it. He's. He's he to me is the is. I. I don't see how they lose.

[Rich Paul]

I think last night Acuff got a glimpse of what it's going to look like at the next level.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Because you got bigger guards.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

You have different scheming. And although he scored a lot of points, I agree it wasn't one of his better outings. Seen him play better.

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't think he was good.

[Rich Paul]

How many games you going to play good? You know?

[Max Kellerman]

But I mean, I said, I've been saying on this show he's obviously the number one pick. Da da da da.

[Rich Paul]

I didn't say.

[Max Kellerman]

But I have to admit that when I watched that game. It's just one game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But I agree. It's like this is more like what the listen of the starting five. They're all going to the NBA, probably four in the first round.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. So that's what the NBA looks like. And it didn't look the same.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. If I have the number one pick. Max, I'm telling you, I told you who I'm taking.

[Max Kellerman]

Peterson?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Caleb Wilson.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Why? That would be.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. That's not true. See, you try to discredit my acumen.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm pointing out a conflict of interest. I don't do that. Your acumen.

[Rich Paul]

But I don't do that.

[Max Kellerman]

In fact, that's a compliment to your acumen.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I don't. The thing. I don't do that. I don't do that. I don't have to represent the guy. What I'm telling you is true. If you talk to anybody that know basketball and there's no offense to any of the other kids, it's just that you haven't even seen the car go past 25 miles an hour.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll say this about you. You like to represent players who you feel play the way you want to see players play and have the potential to do that.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Play the right way.

[Max Kellerman]

I could see that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But I'm saying when you unpack it and look, we may be sitting here and it's five or six guys in this draft that are all NBA level type of players. Right. We may be sitting here and seeing that, but I'm just saying when you talk about taking a guy who could grow another 2 inches, hasn't even been allowed to unpack his offensive package.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Competitively on the defensive end, we didn't. You didn't even get to see him in the, in the, in the tournament because he was, he was injured. But I'm just saying I don't have a pick, so my opinion doesn't matter that much. But I know what my eyes see and I've been around it for a long time. So. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, and that's the

[Max Kellerman]

proper use of this conflict to, you

[Rich Paul]

know, I mean, look, I'll take my platform, do business.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, you don't see me. Look, I give all, I give all the young men their props. I've known them, I know them all, so. But I'm just telling you, you took your number one pick. I'm taking my number.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I like. Yeah, but I'm saying like I now I have like no doubt Acuff, number one. He's so much better than everyone else. And then I. When I watched him against essentially an NBA team, I thought this does not look just the same. You know, I think the difference is

[Rich Paul]

he thought Rich was right. That's what you thought.

[Max Kellerman]

You think. Well, you think about his style of guard play and you think about the super duper athletes, but he has a little Chris Paul in him in the sense that he has wiggle in his game. That's not related just to athletic ability. And that plays higher in college, I think than at the next level where you need. If you're going to be a 6263 guard almost always you need superhuman athletic.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you why he'll be. He'll be good.

[Max Kellerman]

I think he'll be good too.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm going to tell you why he'll be good. You think? I know. Let me tell you. Because Max, again, just evaluating the talent when you watch him play. Yeah, he didn't have the best game last night, but look at some of the reads. Look at some of the patience he's has. Keeping the dribble alive, getting the guy on his back. I saw something last night that you don't see most guys do that can actually take a guy one on one that he does really well is he moves well without the ball.

[Max Kellerman]

He does.

[Rich Paul]

He knows how to run that baseline, he knows how to come off the ground.

[Max Kellerman]

He can put a guy on his hip and he can turn the corner and he can do a lot of stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. So whether he goes number one or not is not the point. It's called career earnings for a reason. And I tell all these young men and women, count it up at the end. Develop as many great habits as you possibly can. Become a student of it. And when you get your opportunity, maximize it. That's all you can do.

[Max Kellerman]

You know it's interesting, though, like these. I'm going to talk about this a little later on, but you can get a sense of a guy and college is a small sample size, especially early in the college season. I'm not paying super close attention early. I'm catching certain teams that are highly rated or I happen to catch a team and see a guy play. Until. Until you get closer to the tournament. Now you start to pay more attention. At least I do. But the sample size is relatively small. You make guesses based on the feeling you get about certain player of who's going to play at a certain level with the chips on the line. Right. But when you get a game in the tournament, especially as a tournament moves on as evidence, that's a big piece of evidence based on. On your overall sample size. Right. So even though, hey, that's only one game, but it does have. It makes an impression on me because as a percentage of the high leverage games I've seen him play, even though it's only one, it's kind of big. Right. Especially when a guy is a freshman.

[Rich Paul]

But also. Yeah, he was averaging 30.2 points. Yeah, he's been incredible up until last night. So again, I think he'll be fine.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what I like, Rich? When I like when like I was rooting for Nebraska because I can't believe it, they never had a friend.

[Rich Paul]

Hoiberg. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But also, like, they never had a tournament win. Really. I didn't know that until this year.

[Rich Paul]

Really?

[Max Kellerman]

Nebraska never a single tournament win. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Until this year, T. Lou didn't have a single tournament. Apparently not played at Nebraska.

[Max Kellerman]

Apparently not. Anyway, so I'm rooting for them and also to be fun. If the football school wins a national title in basketball and the basketball. What if a basketball. What? I just say no, no. If a basketball school wins the national title in football, what if somehow the football. But you know, and they, and they played a good game, but they just. They didn't have enough.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, well, actually, they did have enough. They just went cold down the stretch. Yeah, they had enough. And then they had a. And then they had a brain freeze with the four men on the, on the, on the floor instead of. I'd rather have six.

[Max Kellerman]

Coach took. Coach took the blame. You know, he took it after the game.

[Rich Paul]

That's just. But things happen.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But that brings me to something.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

My. Get rich quick.

[Max Kellerman]

Get rich quick.

[Rich Paul]

I was thinking about the most memorable backcourts in college. I'm not talking about your memories. I don't want to Hear nothing about Luau Cinder.

[Max Kellerman]

And first of all. And in the background. Someone's going to clip that. Rich Paul thinks.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, well, we know he'll clip it. It won't be you or I.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the thing. My, my most memorable. There was a three point line, just to be clear. But I would say Chuck Taylor.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, good.

[Rich Paul]

Chuck Taylor. I would say I'm starting off with. I have to. I know who I want to start. I'm going to end it with this. But no, I'm starting off with. Let's go Ed Cota and Shaman.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

I think it was Ed and Shimon. Right. And Shimon Williams. Let's fact check that for somebody. For these fans go crazy. I think it was Ed and Shaman Williams because they not only did they have. They were smaller backcourt, but they had the flair and it was unc. And Ed Cota was just unbelievable with the passing game. Shamon could really shoot it. I love them.

[Max Kellerman]

Could you tell at that time who was going to make it at the next level?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And does that have an effect on when you watch? Because sometimes I feel like in college it can have the reverse effect. Like if you can see it and think, I don't know if he'll make it on the next level. But damn, this is great. In college it makes you like them more in a way.

[Rich Paul]

But that team was such a good team. I actually was surprised Ed didn't shoot it as well as you would like. But he was such a great playmaker. But for some reason it didn't translate over. Shimon actually played. And prior to that, Jeff McGinnis who. Who was a bigger guard, was bigger than those guys made it too. This was going to surprise you.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

Bobby Sura and Charlie Ward. All right. Was a really. But they also had Sam Cassell, so I don't know if they count for. Because that's kind of like. I don't know. That was a. That's three guys.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, Charlie Ward became a basketball player. But at the time that wasn't clear.

[Rich Paul]

I mean Charlie Ward was just. He could play basketball when the Heisman. You might want to play hockey at Florida State.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. That's an athlete.

[Rich Paul]

He didn't play hockey.

[Max Kellerman]

He doesn't. He doesn't. He. Yeah, he could play. Winfield though, did get drafted in hockey and I don't think he even played. But if you would have told me Charlie Ward got drafted in hockey, I would believe it. He's just an athlete.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Jameer Nelson and Delonte west.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Remember that St. Joe's team?

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

They were unbelievable.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a good one.

[Rich Paul]

They were unbelievable. Khalid El Amin and Rip Hamilton.

[Max Kellerman]

That's another good one. Good pull.

[Rich Paul]

You didn't have these. I knew you didn't have these. But this is. I'm missing some, but I'm saying most memorable for me, not most memorable because I'm missing some, but the last one is Mike Bibby and Miles Simon. And let me tell you why. Damn it. Let me tell you why. Why? When they broke out those phone posits. Max, do you know what I'm talking about? No. So for some reason, like, certain college teams debuted certain shoes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

And in this case, 1997. I believe it was my 50th birthday.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, God. Yeah. Not really.

[Rich Paul]

Damn.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I'm joking.

[Rich Paul]

I was gonna say Mike Bibby and Miles Simon wore. They became the pennies, but we didn't know what they were. We just seen them on tv. I tried to jump through the screen. I literally tried to jump through the tv. I was at my Uncle Warren, Aunt Linda's house. I never forget this day. I lost my mind. Literally lost my mind. I went to VIP the next day because I had to debut these at the hut. And the hut was, like, pulling up at the Forum Club or some craziness. And not only were they a great team, they won a national championship that year, I want to say. Yeah, I think they won 97. And then Kentucky came back. Kentucky won 96 and 98. I think they.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I don't remember the year, so I'll take your word for it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Wayne Turner. They beat Keith Van Horn. I was watching that game. We was in the State Championship on the road that time. But nevertheless. Yeah, those are my. Those are like.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, I got. I got two more backcourts. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Who.

[Max Kellerman]

One of them you don't think of as a backcourt because one of them went on to be. You think of them more as a forward in the league, in the NBA.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And the other guy was young when they happened, but Mark Jackson and Chris Mullen played in the same backcourt.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

At St. John's they went to the Final Four. Right? And that was my personal favorite.

[Rich Paul]

Nobody's fronting on Mark Jackson. Chris Mullen. I. Somehow I knew it would come back to New York.

[Max Kellerman]

How about this one?

[Rich Paul]

Nobody on that.

[Max Kellerman]

How about this one?

[Rich Paul]

Who?

[Max Kellerman]

That. It's the greatest backcourt in the history of college basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Anderson Hunt, easily.

[Max Kellerman]

No, it's like, not even a set. There's no second Place for backcourts.

[Rich Paul]

Who?

[Max Kellerman]

Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I like.

[Max Kellerman]

At UConn, the team went 39 and. Oh, you have two future all time

[Rich Paul]

great hall of Famers, Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi.

[Max Kellerman]

Diana Taurasi was one of the best watches that you'll ever see. Right. Like, she was incredible to watch. Sue Bird. Sue Bird. She's one of these, like, when you talk about a winner, every single place she went.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

They won the whole thing as an amateur and as a pro, wherever she Olympics. Doesn't matter. Her team won the championship all the time.

[Rich Paul]

If we're ranking them. Yeah, I might have. I might have. Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi. Well, they definitely in my top five. They're probably in my top all time. Two. Yeah, three.

[Max Kellerman]

Like as a backcourt. And also your team goes 39. Zero.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. If you want to go on the women's side. What about Samika Randle and Shamika Hosthal?

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, you've had some great backcourts in the women's game. But. But to me, Sue Bird and Diana Taurasi is. It's absurd. It doesn't even sound weird.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, it is. No, but the women's game had. Who did Don Staley play in the backcourt with? Cause they was tough.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, listen, you can always take like, who did Allen Iverson play in the backcourt with? Right.

[Rich Paul]

Victor Page.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. And you could always take that and say, well, that's one of the great backcourts because of Iverson. But we're really talking about back courts where they're each.

[Rich Paul]

Well, we're forgetting. You guys had a great backcourt. Padilla. And when coach Kyle was there, it was. It was Padilla.

[Max Kellerman]

What year are we talking about?

[Rich Paul]

This is with Marcus Camby. I forgot their backcourt. They didn't. They didn't really. They didn't go pro. Neither one of them. But they were really good.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Good in college. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know who played the backcourt with Randolph Children. Who his partner was. Obviously. You could say Ray Allen. Oh, we're missing a couple.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

For Sean Leonard and. And. And Bobby Jackson. Yep. Respiratory.

[Max Kellerman]

Who was Ray Allen in the back court?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know who's Ray Allen's point guard was.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't remember anything anymore.

[Rich Paul]

I don't remember who Ray Allen's point guard was. But. But there was. Again, we're missing. Whoever was in the backcourt was Steve Francis. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. But the same.

[Rich Paul]

That's what I mean.

[Max Kellerman]

We're not talking about like who played in the back.

[Rich Paul]

We're talking about.

[Max Kellerman]

We're talking about where they're both. All right, that's good. That's a good get rich quick, good list.

[Rich Paul]

But we should.

[Max Kellerman]

That's fun.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but we want the viewers to send more in too, because you guys are idiots.

[Max Kellerman]

You forgot about this. Yeah, right.

[Rich Paul]

See, but also, we don't cheat the game. We could have been in the editing room having people get.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Leaving the mistakes.

[Rich Paul]

We don't do that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Just to be clear, Game over is brought to you by by FanDuel baseball fans. America's pastime is a game of decisions, and FanDuel is bringing that same strategy to you for opening week with choose your own reward. Now you get to pick the promo you want to use and play how you want to play. Make your choice and the reward will be ready to use instantly on your next MLB bet. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now to choose your reward for Major League Baseball's opening week. And FanDuel is now live in Arkansas. Play ball with a home for home runs on FanDuel, an official partner of MLB 21 and over in select states or 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required minimum 3 leg parlay required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens Restrictions apply including any token expiration max wager amount. See terms at Sportsbook gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. MVPs always make the game more exciting. You just get such a thrill watching players like Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor. That's my favorite of all time. Dominate the field. And no matter how much time passes, it's fun to look back on everything they did and accomplished. There's a reason we continue to remember their names among the hundreds and thousands of other football players. You probably want your own Jerry Rice or Jim Brown for your team too, right? The trick is to find them. It can take days, months to sort through all the resumes and find that perfect fit for your business. Unless you use ZipRecruiter, it's like your own private scouting department. You can even try it [e-mail] GameOver along with its smart matching tech, ZipRecruiter has a new feature to help connect you immediately with qualified candidates who are interested in your role. And they can tell you in their own words about why they're Interested. Which can tell you a lot more about them as a person. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com game. Game over. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. So you brought up earlier how I was lamenting the Knicks loss yesterday. I really wasn't.

[Rich Paul]

You're really glazing the Hornets.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, listen, the Hornets, first of all, their starting five.

[Rich Paul]

When you.

[Max Kellerman]

This is how gangster it is to win in the NBA. You can have everyone doing their job almost perfectly and it's still not enough somehow. But the Hornets starting five has been the best starting five unit in the NBA over the last couple months. Like by the numbers. They've been the best. And when you think about. So who's the superstar on the team? You say Lonzo ball, right?

[Rich Paul]

Has the Lonzo ball.

[Max Kellerman]

Doesn't play a. I'm sorry, you know who I mean. Lamelo ball.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Lamelo ball is a superstar. Right. Has the best.

[Rich Paul]

He has the most catastrophe. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

He's the most recognized. Okay.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Con Knipple could practically not be playing any better. Khan is exactly what, by the way, both sides of the ball.

[Rich Paul]

He shoots that ball.

[Max Kellerman]

It's unbelievable.

[Rich Paul]

It's unbelievable.

[Max Kellerman]

I think he's going to go. I think he like they had some stat about him and Steph. He has the most threes made as a rookie. Blah, blah, blah since Steph. But someone made the. I think it was maybe Brendan Haywood. But someone made the point on the broadcast that I thought was really good in that the thing about Khan is he doesn't need to be square to the basket. It's like Steph in the sense that wherever he gets the ball, there's a threat that the thing is going to leave his hands and it's going to go in.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And he's bigger.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Six. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

He's like the bigger you are. Shoot it. Obviously Steph is just put him somewhere else. He's in a different galaxy. But Khan shoots the ball with so effortlessly.

[Max Kellerman]

It's crazy.

[Rich Paul]

And he is. Say what you want as a rookie. He's come in. He's really helped. What I already thought was changing anyway in the culture of the Charlotte Hornets, but he's also added to that. He's added to a continuous want to change the culture There and Max.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, real quick, like, I know this is what I mean about in college. You have a sense about certain guys. You have to wait and see them do it. Let's see about con canople in the playoffs. It feels to me. No, it doesn't like, because they were arguing. They were arguing with the game on the line. Who do you want to shoot the shot? And one guy had. Had Lamelo and one guy had Khan. I understand that Khan can nipple like of everyone in the NBA practically. If you said you want some guy to take the shot, Khan just. We'll find out if I'm right or wrong. But my hunch is like the way I want him shooting. At the end of the day, depending

[Rich Paul]

on what's happening, you're taking. If you're. Lamelo is probably the number one player in the league in making what looks like a bad shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I agree. But all his shots look bad when they come out of his hand. But they all go in.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just telling you.

[Max Kellerman]

He has a lot of them go in.

[Rich Paul]

And he's six, seven. Yeah, but that starting five, Khan, LaMelo, Miles, by the way, Diabate and Miller.

[Max Kellerman]

And Miller is. Miller is their leading scorer.

[Rich Paul]

He's six, eight.

[Max Kellerman]

And that's what I mean. Like when you think of how they hit in the draft. They kept hitting in the draft. Their whole like four of their starting five can really hurt you. And then their center, who's really, you know, the guy they're playing at, Diabate is. Is like the glue guy. The guy who does everything. The guy who plays defense.

[Rich Paul]

Do you remember what. Do you remember when you asked me what I thought the Hornets needed to add? Free agency.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Do you remember what I said?

[Max Kellerman]

Shows ago.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, shows.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't remember what you said.

[Rich Paul]

I said nothing. I said they need to add maturity. Continue. Not add, but continue to mature and continue to develop. Because here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

How about the Kobe White pickup? Of course, Kobe White. I remember when the Bulls drafted. I was thinking like he's one of these very high floor guys in the sense that you, you know he's going to do certain things that you can leave him on the floor on almost any team.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But here's the. He's. Kobe White is the prime example of what we talked about before. He's coming in. First of all, good head on the shoulders. Right, right. Coming in. It's going back to a market. I think he's from there. Somewhere around. There. Somewhere around in North Carolina. He went to North Carolina I think he's from. From somewhere around there, but he's. But he's coming in embracing the game plan.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

He's coming off the bench, no problem. But there's going to be a lot of times in the playoffs, he may finish games.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. So now you have five guys.

[Max Kellerman]

That's live because as is right now, when Bridges is shooting it well, you're asked out.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you're cooked.

[Max Kellerman]

But if you. If Kobe White's in the game and not Bridges, now you have.

[Rich Paul]

That won't be if. If.

[Max Kellerman]

I understand. But you could. You could.

[Rich Paul]

That'll be very small. But you could. But you could.

[Max Kellerman]

But the point is, if. When they run that lineup, four guys

[Rich Paul]

on the floor, I'm not saying not closing, you're saying just in general, four

[Max Kellerman]

guys on the floor can kill you.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

From outside and D A and play defense.

[Rich Paul]

They come off the bench with two really key guys. And this is what you need to win, I think, in our league today. Youth and iq.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

If you have youth that possesses IQ within, you're in pretty good shape. Now. You add skill on top of that, and obviously talent comes with that skill set. When they bring in James, who played with Khan at Duke, and you bring in Kobe White, I mean, they're gonna be a tough outlet.

[Max Kellerman]

When you say youth, people think like athletic ability and everything, but there's also like a certain energy and enthusiasm.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

From the start of the game, from jump, literally, you could feel the youth on the Charlotte team, the enthusiasm, the energy. It felt like the tournament, it felt like a game. It felt like there is a Sweet 16 game or something.

[Rich Paul]

You know what else comes with youth? Think about when you were young. You just told me, rich, when I was young, man, we would jump on the side of the train. You wouldn't do that today.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

Right.

[Max Kellerman]

The subways pulling out back in the day. I haven't taken the train in a million years. But if subway's pulling out back in the day, you're going to school, you're going somewhere. You would run alongside the train and jump on in between, because they had the little chain there. You just jump over there. I wouldn't do that now.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is what comes with youth is lack of fear.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So now when you equate, you put all those things together, it's like the hardest part about coaching young players is them willing, being willing to listen. Just like in this classroom, if a teacher comes in and you have the students and they don't want to listen, they Throwing stuff. Then you can't get nothing across. But for some reason, when it clicks, and if they're willing to listen now, you start winning and then you start to understand why we won the game. And then you start to fall in love with, oh, executing. And then you start to see guys in the huddle start to really challenge.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, who do you credit for that? I gotta say something. You drop Khan onto that team and the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And maybe it's because he's shooting the lights out and also playing defense. Right. Whatever it is that took them to the next level, it seems to me, in terms of not only results, but chemistry.

[Rich Paul]

You know what it reminds me of? And I was like this in school sometimes, although I was a little mannish. But what this reminds me of is when someone is serious, if you're in a room with. It's just 10 students in the room and we're taking the test and one person wants to goof off, or maybe even two wants to goof off, and the other eight is, like, locked in. You look so stupid.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You really look dumb. And it causes you to look around and realize, like, you know what, Let me get my head.

[Max Kellerman]

You're talking about peer pressure. Really? You're talking that peer pressure cuts both ways. There can be good peer pressure. Yes.

[Rich Paul]

And you. And. And that's what it seems like to me now. I will say I felt like when they brought in Jeff Peterson, they switched the ownership group to.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you've been. You've been high on this ownership group.

[Rich Paul]

Then you bring in Charles Lee and you know, it takes time to break a lot of these old habits. And not that the bad. Not that the previous regime did a bad job. Sometimes you could just be older and not as connected to that young. Those young people in a way. And so the buy in part comes with, you know, that communication, constant communication.

[Max Kellerman]

It's also talent. Like, you can have a team that plays the right way. You don't play in a vacuum. You play with 29 other teams. And if they're all. If many of them are also playing the right way and they have more talent, you're going to be a bad team. You know, you're not. So they drafted up high for a bunch of years. Right. But they kept hitting on their picks.

[Rich Paul]

They did.

[Max Kellerman]

So they assembled real talent. And now that real young talent is growing together and doing it the right way, the Hornets are a lot. I would hate to be the team that draws them in the first round now.

[Rich Paul]

Me too. I will say I Think Miles is the. Miles Bridges is the. He's probably the. The most tenured hornet on that roster.

[Max Kellerman]

They drafted him like four or five years ago.

[Rich Paul]

No longer than that.

[Max Kellerman]

Five, six years ago. Not that much longer.

[Rich Paul]

2018.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, I forget. We're in 2026. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

2018. So yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

How old is. How old is Bridges?

[Rich Paul]

He spent two years in at Michigan State. Remember he went back.

[Max Kellerman]

He comes out when he's 19 or 20.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. He could have came out his freshman year, decided to go.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah. He's still on the right side of 30, though. Anyway, he's like, he's young. When the, when the Elder Statesman is 27, 28, whatever. And you bring. And Kobe White is the veteran you bring in.

[Rich Paul]

Right. He's 26.

[Max Kellerman]

26.

[Rich Paul]

Right. And you bring in Kobe White, who's the year after his class. Kobe White came in the 2019 class.

[Max Kellerman]

Been in the league longer than Kobe White.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Kobe White's 2019. Bridges is 2018.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll take your word for it.

[Rich Paul]

I mean, I represent him, so I would know. Yeah, you would know, but yeah. No, listen, I like, I like. I like. Now, I will say if they wanted to add something this summer, they could. I'll keep it to myself, but they could. I know exactly where.

[Max Kellerman]

And you're not going to say no?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Just between you and me, we'll edit this part out.

[Rich Paul]

Well, considering that the editing goes the opposite way, I'll decide to pass on that

[Max Kellerman]

Celtics favorite to come out of the East. They beat the Thunder.

[Rich Paul]

Not because they beat the Thunder. No. But I do think as a whole, I don't understand how these things change after just one game. No, it's not because they beat the Thunder. Who knows? What. What's the Thunder on, like a four game road trip. You know how hard it is to go into Boston and play like.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but do you. Okay. I'm not saying because they can the second I'm saying. But are they. Are they your favorites to come out of the East?

[Rich Paul]

Out of the East. Currently, they would be my favorite to come out of the East. Yes. Currently, yes.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm kind of stuck on this one because I need to like Tatum coming back when he did. It is so hard to keep basketball legs, first of all, to get in basketball shape and then to keep those legs for when you haven't been playing the whole year. So I need to see what that looks like as the. As the season comes to a close and the postseason starts. If Tatum's legs are good through the postseason, I think I agree with you, but I don't know the answer to that.

[Rich Paul]

Two things I'm not worried about Tatum, I'm more so worried about, okay, where is Vucevic with his injury?

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Right. If he's able to come back. And then the other thing is again in the playoffs, man, your bigs have to have a tremendous amount of iq. And what I mean by IQ is there's a quick decision making that has to take place. You have to know the art of setting screens is important. How long to hold onto that screen depending on who you're setting the screen on. And then it be little things like when to actually put the shot back up on the put back or when to actually get an offense rebound and spread out. If they're blitzing somebody off the ball screen, how quick are they making the decision and is it the right decision?

[Max Kellerman]

That's why you're interested in Vucevich. He's an offensive center, but they have

[Rich Paul]

two big One of them is a

[Max Kellerman]

kind of a defensive guy and one of them is an offensive guy.

[Rich Paul]

To me, the defensive guy is more important in these decision making points because

[Max Kellerman]

it's not like he's going to. Because you need him to play team offense, because it's not like he's going to be the scoring option.

[Rich Paul]

How Mitchell Robinson affects the game, right, impacts the game. And he does it just naturally, I think.

[Max Kellerman]

See, that's why I might like the Knicks. The thing about, I said about Tatum's legs, I might like the Knicks because when I think about their. When I think about the weak spots in their starting five, I think about two, two really good players, really good players. Josh Hart and Mikhail Bridges, right? I think of them as the weak spots not because they're not good players, but because they are not to their positions what the other three guys who start Brunson, OG and Cat are to their positions. If you had to rank all the. I know it's positionless, but if you had to rank all the ones, twos, threes, fours, fives or whatever, wings and front court, whatever, Brunson and OG and Cat will rank higher on those lists than Hart and Bridges.

[Rich Paul]

Let me tell you something.

[Max Kellerman]

But I'll say this. When you look at Hart and Bridges and then your sixth man, really like the sixth most important player at least is Mitchell Robinson. When you look at those three guys are those championship players. I think they are. I think like I saw Mikael Bridges play great defense in these playoffs last year. Josh Hart is like a heart and soul glue guy. And Mitchell Robinson's a championship kind of player. Like when. So in other words, when you identify of your best six players, you identify the three lesser guys and you're like, those are all championship players. I like that. In a tough series, Max, if there

[Rich Paul]

was two guys that I do not worry about in the postseason is Bridges and Hart.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Not named Brunson. Two guys not named Brunson. It's Bridges and Heart.

[Max Kellerman]

They're tough.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not worried about those guys in the postseason.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree. That's why I'm saying. That's why I'm saying when I look at the Knicks best six players, I feel good about their chances as the

[Rich Paul]

playoffs and I may be wrong here. And I think people put too much emphasis on points in the stat sheet. I can't say I ever remember those guys having a bad postseason.

[Max Kellerman]

I agree.

[Rich Paul]

They just affect the game in so many different ways.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, Bridges without having to score 35 defensively, Bridges was excellent defensively, like excellent. Came up with huge plays defensively last postseason.

[Rich Paul]

But I will say this, just like you talk about the Hornets, the Sixers are getting back whole in a very sneaky way.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I also don't want to play them whole. Although the only thing would be if they run, run out of time in terms of getting it all together. Yeah. To play together and gain a rhythm and, you know, decide.

[Max Kellerman]

The Celtics got Tatum back kind of at the right time to give him a shot.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that matters. But we'll see.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, I got a five minute max for you. And it kind of involves what we were just talking about a little bit. Aaron judge. Rich went 0 for 5 opening day with 4Ks. The Golden Sombrero. Although Aaron, golden sombrero, really a pure one should be. You just have those four at bats and you strike out all four times. But he struck out four times and, and he. And he was 0 for 5. I don't think people understand how good Judge is. Actually, I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Aaron Judge is so much better than Shohei Ohtani offensively that so far in their careers, even Ohtani's pitching doesn't make up the difference. Judge is better. Judge is better than Ohtani. Even though Ohtani is a two way player at an elite level, Judge hits that much better than Ohtani. However, in fact, before I even move on, Aaron Judge, the quality of his offensive prime so far puts him in a category with like Babe Ruth, Ted Williams and Barry Bonds. Once his head doubled in size and his numbers Went insane. Right? That's how, like, he has a chance to be the greatest baseball player ever.

[Rich Paul]

Aaron Judge does.

[Max Kellerman]

Aaron Judge has a chance. However, the fact is his performance under pressure is significantly worse than his performance normally. And he will never attain the status of the greatest player ever if he can't start hitting under pressure at least as well as he hits normally. And this leads to what I want to talk about. Remember when I was critical of Tatum in the Finals, bunch of shows, like, a couple months ago, and people were including Drew Hanlon, were coming out and defending Tatum and saying I'm crazy, and listing all these great postseason games that Tatum had?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

The fact is, I'm not saying that Tatum or Aaron Judge haven't had. And I'm not even including Tatum in the Judge category. Haven't had great postseason games. They had. They're great players. I'm saying when it matters most, does your performance elevate or does it decrease? Right. Does it. Does it go down? And the fact is that Tatum in the Finals has not always been his normal self. I'm not saying his best self. His normal self. Now, it's difficult to be because he creates an extremely high bar to reach. And then there's so much attention and game planning in the playoffs that it becomes harder. But didn't seem to be a problem for Michael Jordan or Larry Bird. Right. Like, I mean, in other words, or Magic Johnson. Those guys were so. It's not that. I'm not saying that these. That these players are great and some of the greatest of all time. I'm saying that to be in the uppermost echelon, you need to be able, when the chips are on the line, to at least be your normal self, if not your best self. Which brings me to the seven levels of clutch. Okay. By the way, you can do it with a K. And this is based on Dante's Inferno. Okay. Dante's Inferno, which is an epic poem about hell, basically. And what levels of hell are people on? Right. The hypocrite is on a worse level of hell than this guy. So I want to do levels of clutch. Okay, here's the highest level of clutch. You are the greatest ever at what you did. And under pressure in the biggest moments against the best competition with the most on the line, even though you've already set the highest standard anyone's ever seen, you get better.

[Rich Paul]

That's LeBron.

[Max Kellerman]

That's. That's. It's not LeBron. LeBron's not in that category. LeBron has been in that category at Times, but has also not been in that category. I would. So that's MJ. And that's so we don't get bogged down in MJ. LeBron thing. I'll take someone else. I'll take someone else. Mario.

[Rich Paul]

I was just trouble.

[Max Kellerman]

But LeBron, however, has had like Game 7 or that series against Golden State in 16, so it's a little messier with LeBron. I'll take Mariano Rivera. Mariano Rivera has the lowest ERA of any pitcher ever. Adjusted ERA who pitched at least 1,000 innings in the major leagues. The lowest ever. He's the best ever inning for inning. How'd he do in the playoffs? He went up 1/3 the ERA in the regular season. His regular season is the lowest ever. His postseason ERA through the steroids ERA in the AL east, he's pitching against Boston in little ballparks. His ERA was 0.7, not 1.7 or 2.77 in 140 innings. So there's the highest level of clutch. You're the best ever in the biggest moments, under the best circumstance, everything you get better. Mariano Rivera. Okay, now you get the next level of clutch. You're a great player. Right. Or a very good player. To a great player. And under pressure you become an all time great. I'll stay with baseball pitching, so we don't get into a basketball argument.

[Rich Paul]

You'll lose, but go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

So Kurt Schilling or Fernando Valenzuela or El Duque, Orlando Hernandez. Really good pitchers. To varying degrees, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

But when it mattered most, they were all time great pitchers. Sandy Koufax, by the way, could be in the Mariano Rivera category. I'll just use baseball pitchers. We'll keep it clean. Those guys. Now you get to the next level.

[Rich Paul]

You can use quarterbacks too.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, I'll use players that aren't MJ and LeBron, so we don't get sides. Third level of clutch. You're an all time great player. And because you're great, you stay your normal self under pressure. These guys usually get confused with the first category, right? Like. Like the Mariano Rivera level or the Sandy Koufax level. And I'll give you examples. Derek Jeter. Derek Jeter was always great. When it mattered most, he was his normal self, which was great. Tom Brady, always great. When it mattered most, he was still Tom Brady. Tom Brady played so well toward the end of his career under pressure, maybe he could even jump into the first category. Kobe Bryant, same thing. Great player. When it mattered most, Kobe was great as always. But I wouldn't say Jeter or Kobe became better than they normally were. When it mattered most, they were just still great. And because they're great, people think, oh, this is the most clutch player.

[Rich Paul]

Okay?

[Max Kellerman]

Now after you get to those levels, you get to players who aren't good or are good but are incredible under pressure, like Robert Horry or someone like that. Although he could maybe be in the El Duque category. There was a little shortstop, second baseman, utility infielder named Luis soho with the Yankees back in the day, you talk to any real Yankees fan and in the clutch, they'd rather see Luis Soho than a rod. They lived through it. They saw it. They'd be like, I'd rather have that guy, because normally he's okay. But when it mattered most, you depended. He was. You relied on him. Maybe not unbelievable, but you relied on him. Then you start getting to lower levels. Like, for example, Peyton Manning was in a bad category early in his career. That's the best player ever in the regular season. Why can't he be himself in the playoffs? Later? He became. He left that category because when you get a great player, you give him enough reps, he'll elevate over time. Usually, by the way, Steph Curry, people got on me about my I want iguodal thing, but I was right. Steph in the biggest moments was not his normal self. For a while, he was something lesser than his normal self. Now, just like Peyton, over time, he jumped up categories because you can't. You give that guy enough reps. He's too good. He's not going to be in that category forever. You could even say a rod, too. A rod. A lot of. A lot of his career. Like, come on, dude, he jumped it. And you can get right back down to the. To the lowest category there is. You are maybe the best ever at what you do under pressure.

[Rich Paul]

You're not good.

[Max Kellerman]

Aaron Judge had. Oh, he had a good postseason. Here are his postseason numbers for his career. Well, I don't have his on basin slugging here. His on base and slugging are over.400 and 600 for his career in the regular season and are in the mid threes and mid fours in large postseason sample size. Not good. Just not good. He fell. He falls off too hard. You saw it in the base in the world in the Baseball Classic at wbc. You saw it in. You saw it opening day, right? I mean, whatever. It's opening day, and you've seen it consistently in the playoffs. And my hope for Aaron Judge Richard is that he can climb out of this lowest level of hell as. As Peyton Manning or Steph Curry did and elevate that part to the point where he can seriously be in consideration for greatest player ever. Because on the merits, he is normally just not under pressure. That's like a ten minute max. But anyway, nine minute max. Whoo. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But you know what? Max, I have a real question.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, Good.

[Rich Paul]

You mentioned Mariano Rivera.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Do you think it's harder for a pitcher to pitch innings one through seven and position the team for the closer to come in or for the closer just to pitch those two innings?

[Max Kellerman]

It's interesting. It's not one through seven. The answer is one through seven.

[Rich Paul]

Well, yeah, because those pitchers don't pitch one through seven.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, but.

[Rich Paul]

But okay, they get like three innings.

[Max Kellerman]

They get five nowadays. Because the real issue is seeing that lineup for the third time. They could see it twice once the lineup. Seen them twice. That third time's a bitch.

[Rich Paul]

So it's harder for the closer.

[Max Kellerman]

It's. No, no. It's harder for the regular because he has to see everybody twice. Mariano Rivero was a starter. He was not a great starter. They moved him to the bullpen where everyone could just see that cutter.

[Rich Paul]

Right. You only see who's coming up in the batting order for those if it's 8th inning or if it's.

[Max Kellerman]

They don't have time all game to start to try to figure out how to do it.

[Rich Paul]

Now, my other question is, you talked about all these. The seven layers of clutch.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Let's just go to always great.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Or are good during a regular season, but some cow can't get there in the playoffs, in today's game. In the NFL. In the NFL from your point of view, not mine. Because I want you to go viral and I.

[Max Kellerman]

In the NFL. That's a good question. Who did I criticize for? Well, I'll give you one. It's not really all his fault, but he's got to get it done one of these years.

[Rich Paul]

Who?

[Max Kellerman]

Josh Allen. He's got. I know, but it's not fair to put Josh Allen in that category because I've seen Josh Allen ball out and just get a little unlucky or slightly outplayed by like Patrick Mahomes or someone like that. It's not fair to him. But he will be hung with that if he doesn't advance farther in the playoffs.

[Rich Paul]

Good. I'm glad you said it. So the Buffalo mafia can get you. Yeah, who else?

[Max Kellerman]

There's been a changing of the guard recently. So a lot of the guys you know, I'll give you an obvious one. Is Kirk Cousins. Kirk Cousins, good regular season quarterback and in the playoffs needs to get.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's unfair.

[Paul]

This episode is brought to you by TaxAct. Like an expert coach, TaxAct offers step by step guidance and guaranteed accuracy when filing taxes. Get tips along the way. Add expert assist to talk to tax experts and let our experts do your taxes for you. With Expert full service, TaxAct helps you find the deductions and credits you deserve so you can get them over with. Visit taxact.com to learn more. Conditions apply. See taxact.com for details. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. You know, with just one trip to Whole Foods, you can travel the world. First stop, discover the taste of the Mediterranean. With big sales on brands like Deco or Rao's and San Pellegrino. With Whole Foods prepared foods, dinner is solved. You can roam the world with empanadas, burritos, soups and more. Maybe expand your snack repertoire to South America with colorful and crunchy Peruvian potato chips. Then straight to Mexico. For dessert, you can pick up a tres leches family pack cake for only $10 every Friday. All aboard. Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Market.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, let's move on. Are you familiar with this situation with George Gervin and Caleb Williams?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

What do you think about it?

[Max Kellerman]

Come on, man. You can't trademark George Gervin's nickname.

[Rich Paul]

No, but I don't even think he needs to. By the way, forget being the Iceman. Let that be George Gervin. That's he's legend. He earned that right. And it belongs. He's the Iceman, Caleb. Be the dice man.

[Max Kellerman]

The dice man.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because the way he plays, he's always rolling the dice.

[Max Kellerman]

The dice man you like.

[Rich Paul]

Then that way the you can have a nice little celebration.

[Max Kellerman]

But do you want him? Bears can roll down with a dice man. Suggests that he's relying on luck. It's like reckless.

[Rich Paul]

No, not really. No. So you take that too literal. That's that PS41 education you have. That's not what this is. What is it? This is just about. Just that. I don't like to use the word swag. It's more like a. What do the kids call it today? Damn.

[Max Kellerman]

Riz. Swag.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, Riz. You said it. Yeah, it's about the riz of it. All right. Yes, there it is. It's about the reason.

[Max Kellerman]

How old we sound?

[Rich Paul]

Give a how old we sound.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you know how old we sound? What are the kids calling it today? That is that Riz. Norm MacDonald was around.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, well, edit that. Yeah, let's just say.

[Max Kellerman]

No, let's not edit it. Leave it in.

[Rich Paul]

It's about the wrist.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it's about.

[Rich Paul]

And the thing about it is, why fight for this name?

[Max Kellerman]

Not sure we. That we're on the same page about what Riz is exactly, but go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I am. You're a lot older than me. But the thing is, it don't matter. Like just whatever it is, if you produce, it becomes cool.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Don't matter. When you first had.

[Max Kellerman]

Speaking of cool, people like this generation wouldn't know the ice. George Gervin was the coolest guy. He was the cool. And it's not just because of the nickname. The scoring was like. He was the. He was like. I would say, other than Dr. J when I was a kid, Dr. J was the number one guy. It was the Iceman.

[Rich Paul]

If George Gervin, he's cool at hello. When he says, what's up, young fella? That is cool. Yeah, like that. You ever had George Gervin say that to you? I have.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I've never. I don't think I've ever met George.

[Rich Paul]

I have. It's the coolest thing ever. It is the coolest thing ever. So, yeah, we gotta. I mean, come on. Yeah, George, let's get to some emails.

[Max Kellerman]

Max, let's do it.

[Rich Paul]

I'll read it.

[Max Kellerman]

Go ahead, Paul. This is a long email. Oh, no, no, no, wait. Are these all different emails? This one email? Oh, no, this is one email. They just gave us one long email. Okay, fine. Let's go.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I won't read the whole email because this looks like a book. Okay. It's Rex from la. I remember Rich mentioning on the podcast that he misses those home cooked meals, so I figured I'd reach out with something simple.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. Before you even go on, I'm glad he brought that up. Cause you were talking about. This was a bunch of shows ago. You were talking about your sister's cooking and I stepped on you because I was so. Because it made me think of my Bubba, my grandmother's knishes. And I was in such a rush to talk about that that you didn't get to finish that thing. I was curious what you were gonna say. It's been on my mind for like a month now. Do you remember what we were talking about?

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I remember exactly when you stepped in front of me like you always do. Yeah. How about this lasagna? How about this seven layer salad? How about this? That My sister, she just. She actually. I told her she was going to text me. She actually called me and said, do you need me to fly out to la? I said no, because I don't. I mean, my figure is looking pretty good right now. I need £10 on me.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But if you ever wanted to come out and cook for us, you just name it, she'll do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Love it.

[Rich Paul]

Sweet potato pie. You won't be able to fit any of your clothes. You have to do more shopping.

[Max Kellerman]

Put those little orange peels in there.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, whatever you want. Macaroni and cheese from scratch. Not this thing in a box that people make. Not that. However you want to go. You want to go seafood, just like that.

[Max Kellerman]

Mac and cheese in a box.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me tell you something.

[Rich Paul]

My kids are so spoiled.

[Max Kellerman]

My kids love it. They're spoiled, too, but they love it. And I tasted it. I'm like, how could you like this? They love it.

[Rich Paul]

Let me tell you why.

[Max Kellerman]

The little one used to love it.

[Rich Paul]

Let me tell you why my kids don't like the macaroni in the box. Because I come from. I literally had, like, the 90. The dream team of cooks in my family. Like, literally imagine, forget the dream team. Put the dream team and the redeem team together of cooks in my family. From my. Starting with Ruth Martin. First my grandmother. Then it goes to. You could just pick any aunt. I just. Just roll the dice and any name pop out. Great. Fran, Charlotte, Karen, Patty. It don't matter. Minerva. That's my mother. Any of them. Then it goes even further down to the. Because what would happen is my grandmother would make the little girls come in and help her clean these greens.

[Max Kellerman]

They saw what she was doing.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, the pies, the cakes, whatever the case may be. So they all learn how to cook.

[Max Kellerman]

So that was the opposite in my family. My grandmother, my mother's mother, not my Bubba who made the knishes. My mother's mother could really cook. My mother. There's an old Woody Allen line from one of his movies. He said his mother was too busy running the broiled chicken through the flavorizer machine. That was my mom.

[Rich Paul]

No, let me tell you.

[Max Kellerman]

She ran the broiled chicken through the flavorizer.

[Rich Paul]

I never forget.

[Max Kellerman]

How did he even make a taste like this? There's no. No taste at all.

[Rich Paul]

I never forget. Me and Maverick. This is. This is in the early 2000s. We said, we're going to the club. I want to say. I want. I want to say that Tarver was with us this night, too, and we were going to the club this night. So we decided to stop at my mother's house. And my mother said, come on in. The first question she's gonna ask you.

[Max Kellerman]

Not a good fellas.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. The first question she's gonna ask you. Max. Max, are you hungry?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

You're gonna say yes, right? She said, well, I made a pot of chili. You may say, you know what? I had a taste for whatever it is. If you either eat the chili or you say something else, she's gonna get up and she's gonna make you something to eat. She does in the New York minute, by the way. But this, we were okay with the chili. We had this chili. Mind you, it's summertime. It's not like it's in the winter time. It's chilly in the summer. We eat this chili, man. We call ourselves going out. When I tell you, you know what time we woke up.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Five in the morning.

[Max Kellerman]

So you.

[Rich Paul]

We didn't miss the club. We missed everything.

[Max Kellerman]

You weren't going anywhere.

[Rich Paul]

All of us sleep.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course.

[Rich Paul]

I gotta call Maverick. I know he remembered this. And I'm like, I'm never doing that again.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But, yeah, this is what would happen. And I think she did this on purpose.

[Max Kellerman]

But see, had you gone out that night? Today, you talk about the difference between moments and memories.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

There may have been moments, probably no memories, but now you have the memory of your mom's chili.

[Rich Paul]

So he said his family would like to have us come over. But that wasn't really his question. Yeah, his question was, he had two questions. What was one thing young people in this industry consistently overthinking and one thing they don't think enough about in this industry.

[Max Kellerman]

Meaning the which industry?

[Rich Paul]

He said this industry.

[Max Kellerman]

But I would say so, I guess, like the sports broadcasting, podcasting, whatever.

[Rich Paul]

What I noticed from young people in any industry, one, they care so much about what they're being paid and someone else is being paid.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And they over. They overthink it a little bit. I think they miss out on creating value. Right. Because in most jobs, everyone's replaceable for the most part. That's just the way it is. Whether you believe that or not, it's true. Right. And I don't want you to find

[Max Kellerman]

out, because everyone's replaceable. There's no irreplaceable anyway. Right.

[Rich Paul]

It's true. But I think when you create enough value to where you actually become somewhat irreplaceable.

[Max Kellerman]

Or if I feel it, if you're gone.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Or if I have to second guess and Say, well, damn, if this person's gone, that's going to be.

[Max Kellerman]

If you know you're better with them, if you know you're better with them than without them. Right.

[Rich Paul]

If you focus on creating value that essentially. Essentially allows you to be perceived as irreplaceable, the money follows that.

[Max Kellerman]

So this is what I would say, by the way, I always quote the Damian Lillard lyric, right? Don't believe that time is money. Money is time. You stay focused, you look up and your money is fine. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Stay focused. But I would say something. I'd say this. In this business, like, you could be rich, Paul. Very few and far between for most people. I would say the advice I get, how do I get into broadcasting? And I have a weird story. I didn't go to broadcasting school. I majored in history at Columbia. Right. Like, I did a public access show on boxing. So I don't have a traditional kind of path into the industry. And I wasn't an athlete. Like, I'm not. It's not like I came from, you know, I got to the minor leagues and major league baseball and that. No, it's not like that. And I didn't write for a newspaper. A lot of guys did. Right. So everyone has their own kind of journey to who winds up in the business. But I would say, if you want to create the highest floor for yourself, learn how to write. Learn how to write. If you can write really well, the thing that it means, you can think clearly, and you can also get to a deeper level of thought. In other words, if you're flowing, you're freestyling kind of, and it's stream of consciousness, that's one thing. But if you sit down and really write things out, you can get from this point to this point, point to this point, and you can go deeper and think more deeply. And it also means you can not only organize your thoughts, but. But operate at a certain level in life. So that my advice would be, learn how to write really well.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Good. All right. What you got this weekend, Max? He asked another question, but what's. I think we answered it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

What do you have this weekend?

[Max Kellerman]

My kids.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, nice.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Can I meet you?

[Max Kellerman]

My youngest? Absolutely. Swing through whenever you want. Or I'll take them to you.

[Rich Paul]

No. Or we can meet up somewhere.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

Like to be out and about. It's gonna be.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, I'll tell you one way.

[Rich Paul]

Dean knows the weather. I mean, he might as well work at the KTLA on the Weather Channel.

[Max Kellerman]

But wait, Listen, you want to meet my kids for real? Tell them Adele will be somewhere. They'll show up. They'll show up. My daughters will show up for Adele. They will beat me. Be there. Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

I'mma watch games.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, of course.

[Rich Paul]

Watch games.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Sunday, some big games.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Sunday, some big games. I mean, it's big games tonight too.

[Max Kellerman]

That's right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. We got St. John's Duke tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

That's a huge one.

[Rich Paul]

Got Michigan state, Yukon tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

St. John's and Duke is what I was most interested in, other than Arizona, Arkansas, because I wanted to see if a cuff could somehow make that a game. He couldn't, but St. John's and Duke,

[Rich Paul]

St. John's and Duke.

[Max Kellerman]

If St. John's could figure this one out. Cause Pitino's got them on fire right now.

[Rich Paul]

I think they can. Yeah, I think they can. I think. Look, Duke is going to always be a tough out, but I think it'll be a good game. Michigan State, UConn. You got the old Wiley veteran in Izzo. He just one thing about Izzo, he won't. He won't go. You cannot. He is. He.

[Max Kellerman]

If you want a well coached, Izzo is the guy.

[Rich Paul]

You don't want to go outside in the alley and fight, right? Because you won't.

[Max Kellerman]

You better be ready to keep coming rounds, right?

[Rich Paul]

He's going to keep coming. He's going to go up against the dumpster. You hit him, he come, he come back. And he knows he's one of those guys like, that's all you got. You like, man, I threw like 17,000 punches.

[Max Kellerman]

There was a great line from Freddie Roach, the great boxing trainer, who was also a real tough fighter in the 80s. Used to watch him on ESPN as a fighter, but, you know, he was Pacquiao fighter trainer of the year a billion times and all that. And Freddy is not a big guy and he has Parkinson's on top of it, and he's an old guy. But I won't even mention the fighter. A great fighter was in his gym tearing stuff up and kind of acting crazy. And Freddy was not having it in his gym. This dude is twice Freddy's size. He's in his prime. Better fighter than Freddy ever was, the whole thing. And he said, yeah, I'll kick your ass and this and that. And Freddie looked at him and said, yeah, you know, you were in a fight, though. Yeah, you know you were in a fight, though.

[Rich Paul]

His name is Freddie Roach, not Freddie Ant.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, no. It's harder to kill a roach. That's Izzo. Yeah, you might be. You know, you were in a fight, though.

[Rich Paul]

Izzo's one of my favorite guys, by

[Max Kellerman]

the way, that comes back to, like, remember the Titans. The great thing about that, that line is that really what Denzel is saying to him is whether you win or lose, you gotta leave a piece of your. You have to leave a piece of yourself and leave an imprint. You gotta scar them. They gotta. They have to remember the day they played you. Win or lose, you have to listen like. Like, it's like shaking someone's hand. When I was a little kid, I had a great uncle. I shook his hand and he said, don't give me a fish hook, right? Like, let him. Let them know you're there.

[Rich Paul]

You gotta let them know you're there, huh? Bobby Womack said it in a different way. He was focused on a relationship, but

[Max Kellerman]

he said, when you kiss Bobby Womack.

[Rich Paul]

Bobby Womack, he said, when you kiss her, you got to make her feel it, right? Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

She got to know she ain't walking on shaky ground.

[Max Kellerman]

Tom Izzo kisses you, you feel it.

[Rich Paul]

Apparently Bobby Womack. But something about when you give a valiant effort even in defeat, for some reason, people still view you as a winner.

[Max Kellerman]

I will give you another movie line from Daniel. It's Dan. I don't remember if Daniel Day Lewis. No, it wasn't Daniel Day Lewis character, but he was in it from the Last of the Mohicans. It's a great novel that was made into a movie. And he was like. And they're at the end of the movie, they're on some cliff looking into the distance, and the grandfather goes. You know, other people will come and go. You know, in other words, time goes on. We're not going to be here forever. But once we were here, right? Once we were here, you have to let them know that you were there and, and, and, yeah, that Tom Izzo teams, you know, you were. They were there for sure.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Well, good weekend coming up. Great show, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Great show. Yeah, it's always fun.

[Rich Paul]

You fly, you come in here. Air Maxes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I'll let my kids know that you're hooking them up with Adele. Where's she going to take him for ice cream or something? What's going to happen?

[Rich Paul]

This guy is crazy. We're out, man. Game [e-mail].

[Max Kellerman]

yeah, yeah, yeah. Email. See, we get to the emails every

[Rich Paul]

show we do, but we need more. How do we get one email today?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I think they just took one, but malfunction a little heavy. Bad email.

[Rich Paul]

We're not going to do Rex like that. No, Rex is from LA and Rex might pull up on you. So Rex, great email, Rex.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, by the way, his family would love to have us for dinner. Yeah, my mom grew up in New York in an Arabic household, so food has always been a big part of how we bring people together.

[Rich Paul]

Great. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, for sure.

[Rich Paul]

One thing about Max, he didn't turn down a meal.

[Max Kellerman]

No, it's true.

[Rich Paul]

That is for sure. See you on Monday.

[Max Kellerman]

21 and over in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET, call 1-800-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.

[Athletic Brewing Co. Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Co. No matter how you do game day on the couch, in the crowd or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in with a full lineup of non alcoholic beer styles you can enjoy. Bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out for water in the second half. Stock the fridge for tip off with a variety of non alcoholic craft styles. Available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com near Beer Fit for All Times

[Max Kellerman]

to realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight

[Paul]

for our nation's future.

[Max Kellerman]

We are Marines. We were made for this.