The Madness Was Madness! Plus, Barry Bonds’s Case and Foul Baiting in the NBA.

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode Summary: "The Madness Was Madness! Plus, Barry Bonds’s Case and Foul Baiting in the NBA."

Podcast: Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul (The Ringer)
Date: March 30, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul tackle a packed slate of sports and culture, leading with a breakdown of the latest March Madness thrills, deep-diving into the legacy and controversy around Barry Bonds, and dissecting the growing art—and irritation—of “foul hunting” in the NBA. The conversation pivots naturally into broader discussions, including the “wow factor” in sports in the age of social media, the perennial GOAT debate, and even personal style and presentation standards off the court. As always, the show features sharp analysis, personal anecdotes, and friendly banter, anchored by the hosts' insider experience in sports media and management.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Anecdotes, March Madness Reactions, and Legendary Encounters

• (00:47 – 03:30)
  Rich recounts golfing with Andy Garcia and running into Joe Pesci, reminiscing about their iconic movie roles. This segues into a warm-up chat about food, barbecue, and weekend rituals—setting the episode’s convivial tone.

2. March Madness: UConn vs. Duke, Arizona & Instant Classics

• (04:09 – 16:44)

• Max and Rich dive into the UConn-Duke instant classic, dissecting UConn’s remarkable defensive intensity and halftime turnaround.
  • (05:40) Max: “Sometimes you’re watching something and you know it’s an instant classic…UConn and Duke yesterday.”
  • (07:47 – 10:10) They explore how UConn seized victory—not because Duke lost but because UConn "won it" with heart and execution ("They came out the team we know they could be").
• Discussion on the fine balance young players must strike between playing loose and treating every possession as precious.
• The role of self-awareness in clutch moments, with examples ranging from college kids to Chris Bosh and Michael Jordan’s willingness to pass to a better-positioned teammate.
  • (13:28) “Chris Bosh…in that moment was very self-aware.” – Rich
  • (13:34) Max: “MJ…never scared to take the last shot…but he’s the dude who always took the last shot. But here it is.”
• Max shares his view: sometimes the real championship is a Final Four matchup, i.e., “the championship game is actually Arizona-Michigan.”
  • (16:00 – 17:27) Friendly dispute: Rich backs Arizona or Illinois, Max sees Michigan-Arizona as the top two.

3. Modern NCAA and NBA Backcourts & Shooter’s Jerseys

• (18:12 – 19:00)
  Discussion about shooter shirts, old-school NCAA backcourts, and college hoops nostalgia. Max’s quest for classic shooter shirts highlights the tradition-rich side of March.

4. The Coach’s Quarter: Motivate, Adjust, Communicate

• (19:00 – 22:42)
  Analogy: Second halves as the “coach’s quarter” and lessons from legendary boxing trainer Emanuel Steward about keeping instructions simple and clear—an organic plug for Loom (the episode’s sponsor), connecting leadership, clarity, and team execution.

5. Five-Minute Max: Barry Bonds and the Hall of Fame Dilemma

• (24:00 – 29:54)

• Max devotes a focus segment to Barry Bonds, challenging the narrative of Bonds as the game's greatest hitter:
  • (24:25 – 25:48) “Barry Bonds should obviously be a first ballot Hall of Famer…But this idea that he’s the greatest hitter who ever lived, cuz look at the numbers, is absurd.”
• Max details Bonds’s statistical leap post-2000 and calls out the elephant in the room: PEDs and the drastic, unnatural production spike.
  • (25:52) “He woke up suddenly and dramatically different in appearance, and his numbers changed in an unnatural way, in a way that no one’s numbers ever in any sport have ever naturally changed.”
• Comparison to other sluggers (McGwire, Sosa) to contextualize Bonds’s unique pre-PED greatness and later, inflated numbers.
  • (29:06) “The difference between Bonds and McGwire and Sosa is Bonds is a first ballot Hall of Famer…McGwire and Sosa should never sniff the Hall of Fame.”

6. Wow Factor in Sports and Culture—Lost or Evolved?

• (30:09 – 38:41)

• Rich laments the loss of the “wow factor” due to social media oversaturation and exposure: “Do you remember when things just used to excite you?”
• Both reflect on childhood moments of awe (seeing luxury cars, elusive athletes) and how social media and AI now manufacture and cheapen awe at scale.
  • (33:56) Max: “Everyone’s lives is now walking through Times Square, basically.”
• The deeper psychological impact: social media’s dopamine hits can deaden genuine joy and inspiration, especially in younger generations.
• Rich underscores the need to preserve a sense of awe for inspiration and drive: “I think wow factor is important. I think wow factor drives you. It motivates you…and it's necessary.”
• Discussion extends to sports, where overexposure and constant highlight reels breed both inspiration and disrespect—“We’re not amazed by amazing anymore.”

7. Goat Debate: Is it Good or Bad for Sports?

• (60:53 – 69:39)

• Jordan’s stance: “There’s no such thing as a goat.”
• Rich and Max unpack the conversation’s pros and cons:
  • Rich: “Comparisons are the thief of joy… It gives [haters] an out to dampen the greatness we’re witnessing.”
  • Max values the barbershop debate for stimulating critical analysis and thinking.
• Isaiah Thomas’s spicy take: “If you switched Durant for Jordan, KD would have six rings.”
  Max and Rich agree that context—era, team, positional expectations—matters too much for such simplistic swaps.

8. Foul Baiting in the NBA: Necessary Evil or Unwatchable Tactic?

• (39:56 – 45:39)

• Is SGA (Shai Gilgeous-Alexander) getting “MVP whistles”? Is “foul hunting” undermining the game?
  • Max: “There’s something about foul hunting I hate as a fan…I know why players do it…but I can’t blame them.”
• Comparison to the earlier stars (MJ, Kobe), who didn’t rely on these tactics.
  • (41:07) “MJ and Kobe didn’t need to foul hunt. They got to the foul line…they didn’t need to do that.”
• Rich counters with the reality of smarter defense, evolving offensive tricks, and the likelihood that refs and teams will adjust, especially in the playoffs.
• They agree league intervention is improving but uneven.

9. NBA Contenders & Player Comparisons

• (45:43 – 55:58)

• West race: Thunder, Nuggets, Spurs, Clippers all in the mix.
• Di scussion of Victor Wembanyama (“Wemby”) stats—early scoring, rebounding, blocking, and shooting compared to all-time greats (Bird, Barkley, Hakeem, Steph).
  • Rich: “The three-point shooting is where you got me…The hand size of a 7’4” human being does not necessarily coincide with touch.”
• Sixers and Celtics: if both squads are fully healthy in the playoffs, it could go seven games.
  • Max: “If Brown at his best, Embiid at his best…Brown is close, but the way Brown’s playing this year, he’s like in the outskirts of the MVP conversation.”
  • Rich: “I think the X factor is going to be Derrick White in that series.”

10. Mailbag: All-NBA Team Comparisons by Era

• (70:22 – 77:34)

• Listener query: is the current 2026 All-NBA team (Joker, SGA, Wemby, Luka, Brown) the best collection ever, rivaled only by 1989?
• Max and Rich debate historical lineups, ultimately favoring 2009 (LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade) for top-end legendary talent over the depth/shooting of today’s stars.
  • Max: “Of all these guys, Joker, SGA, Wemby, Luka, and Jaylen Brown…Joker is the only one who’s gonna be in that uppermost tier, and Wemby, if he stays healthy, but he has to do a lot more still.”

11. Style, Presentation, and Personal Anecdotes

• (77:48 – 83:58)

• Wardrobe talk—how comfort and context determine dress code in sports and business.
• Rich on the importance of always “looking the part,” a lesson from his father: “Don’t ever come back around here looking like that…it uplifts your energy.”
• Max’s observation that “sometimes you can work from the outside in”—dress can shift mentality.

12. Closing Banter, Flexes, and Next Episode Tease

• (84:02 – 85:21)
  Plans to bring Andy Garcia (and maybe Joe Pesci) onto a future show for a movie/sports crossover episode.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On March Madness:
  • Max (05:40): “Sometimes you’re watching something and you know it’s an instant classic…UConn and Duke yesterday.”
  • Rich (07:47): “Look, that UConn game was not lost on that last play…You probably should have never even been in that situation.”
• On Self-Awareness in Sports:
  • Rich (13:28): “Chris Bosh…in that moment was very self-aware.”
  • Max (13:34): “MJ…never scared to take the last shot…but he’s the dude who always took the last shot. But here it is.”
• On Bonds and PEDs:
  • Max (25:52): “He woke up suddenly and dramatically different in appearance, and his numbers changed in an unnatural way, in a way that no one’s numbers ever in any sport have ever naturally changed.”
• On Wow Factor:
  • Rich (30:31): “Do you remember when things just used to excite you?”
  • Max (33:56): “Everyone’s lives is now walking through Times Square, basically.”
• On Goat Debate:
  • Rich (61:33): “Comparisons are the thief of joy…I think having that goat conversation gives the haters an out.”
  • Max (62:38): “When people have the barbershop…debate, when they’re essentially doing comparative analysis, I think it’s good for the brain.”
• On Foul Baiting:
  • Max (40:55): “There’s something about foul hunting I hate as a fan…I know why players do it, but I can’t blame them.”
  • Rich (41:12): “MJ and Kobe didn’t need to foul hunt…”
• On Dressing the Part:
  • Rich (81:32): “Don’t ever come back around here looking like that…because it also uplifts your energy.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:47 – Friendship and Hollywood stories (golfing with Andy Garcia, etc.)
• 04:09 – March Madness UConn-Duke breakdown and instant classics
• 13:28 – Self-awareness in big sports moments (MJ, Chris Bosh talk)
• 24:00 – "Five Minute Max": Barry Bonds, PED era, and Hall of Fame
• 30:09 – "Wow factor”: Nostalgia, social media, awe in sports
• 39:56 – Foul hunting in the NBA; SGA whistle discussion
• 45:43 – Western Conference title favorites, Wemby hype
• 54:39 – Sixers vs. Celtics healthy playoff hypothetical
• 60:53 – Michael Jordan, GOAT talk, and player comparison philosophy
• 70:22 – Listener mail: Best all-NBA team by era debate
• 77:48 – Style, class, and lessons on professional appearance
• 84:02 – Show banter and tease for future Hollywood guests

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Conclusion

This episode delivers rich basketball analysis, historical perspective, and a wry, conversational touch that defines Game Over. Max and Rich’s rapport keeps the tone lively while unpacking complex topics with authority, humor, and humility. For listeners seeking insight into sports, culture, and the psychology that shapes them, this is a must-listen showcase of how sports connect to wider currents in society and personal life.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Loom. When your calendar is all status meetings and your teams are still misaligned, it's easy to feel stuck. Get your org unstuck with Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian. Record a Loom to share priorities, feedback, and key decisions. AI makes video editing one click and adds instant summaries so everyone from direct reports to partner teams gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. With Loom, teams stay aligned and focus on work that matters. It's a team changer. Try Loom [e-mail]. Good weekend.

[B]

Yeah, good weekend, man. You know what I did? I did something really cool.

[A]

All right.

[B]

What do you think I did?

[A]

I mean, really cool. You golfed?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But is that what you're referring to is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I golf with Andy Garcia.

[A]

Oh, Andy Garcia. Let me tell you something. When they. When. When the Untouchables dropped. Yeah. My dad took me to see that. I'm like, in the ninth grade maybe or the eighth grade, but he. We used to go to the movies sometimes if it was a gangster flick that he really liked. Come on, Mexico.

[B]

Dean was acting like he didn't know who Andy Garcia was.

[A]

When Andy Garcia showed up in the Untouchables in that first scene with Sean Connery. Yeah. When they're at the academy.

[B]

You're gonna make me go back and watch it now?

[A]

Yeah. And Sean Connery's testing the young cadet, and he tests the first guy and he's like, ah. And he gives him, like, the book. Textbook answer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then Andy Garcia pulls his gun out and sticks it in his neck because Sean Connery insults him. Andy Garcia, that whole performance, it was like, that dude is a star. Yeah.

[B]

He told me a story, and he's. He's gonna come on the show. We'll talk about it more. But just, like, how he manifested being in the acting world. Exactly.

[A]

Godfather Part 3 is so funny because after. In the Godfather, after the Untouchables, like, they come out with The Godfather Part 3, it's 20 years too late. It's not a good movie. But Andy Garcia was so good in the Godfather Part 3, and it's an impossible part to pull off. Really. Yeah.

[B]

It's not one of my favorites, obviously.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if you're going to watch it, he really.

[A]

He makes the whole movie. Yeah.

[B]

But we ran into Joe Pesi.

[A]

Another one. Yeah.

[B]

So we run into Joe Pesi, and he's in the cart by himself. He's. He got on, like, shoes like I have on today, but Black, not golf shoes. He's just. It was such a. It was such a cool moment.

[A]

Yeah. Joe Pesci, of course.

[B]

We're sitting here talking. Talking golf, whatever. But it was good. It was good. So that March Madness. March Madness was madness yesterday, obviously.

[A]

But we're gonna get into that.

[B]

Yeah, we'll get into that. We'll get into that. But no, it was a good weekend. Weather was nice, moved around. Didn't get any barbecue this weekend. But that's okay. Can't you. One thing you can't do. You can't eat barbecue every weekend. Can't do that.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you can. It's not the. It's not the barbecue itself. It's the stuff around the barbecue. It's the carbs around the bar.

[B]

No, but in this case, when you go to Adam Perry Lane, it's the barbecue. But not every weekend for me. I got to keep my physique.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it's good, though.

[A]

You ready to do this?

[B]

Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, let's do it.

[A]

Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[B]

Game [e-mail].

[A]

we're doing the emails. We've been doing them, by the way. One thing let me say about the emails before we get to the show, okay. People are writing a lot of emails. They're. They're novels. They're sending novels. Don't send us a novel.

[B]

Just a question.

[A]

Like a question. It could be a comment, but something short and strong. You know, we can react to it, but it's paragraph after paragraph. You know, Come on, just send the. Be normal about the emails.

[B]

They're from your high school.

[A]

You want. No, you want. You want to start?

[B]

Yeah, let's start the show.

[A]

Yeah. This episode of Game over is presented to you by Loom. If your organization runs on endless email threads and status meetings, teams feel stuck. Unstuck them with Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian. Teams record their screen and share a link so others review on their own time. AI makes recording and editing one click and add summaries, action items, and searchable transcripts so everyone gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. Replace unnecessary meetings. Speed up approvals and onboard faster. With Loom, you remove communication friction. It's a team changer. Try loom [e-mail]. You know, sometimes you're watching something rich and you know it's an instant classic. And everyone says it's the same thing, right? UConn and Duke yesterday. That's an instant classic. That's an instant classic. That's one of the great all time college basketball games. People are going to be talking about it forever. That last play, if you watch UConn's defensive intensity on that last play, every stage of it, from, you know, doubling the inbound or to like, to the pressure they were putting to grabbing the pass, it was not the most carefully, you know, passed ball of all time, but it was. And it really started at half. Like whatever Hurley told those guys at halftime worked well.

[B]

I imagine he's saying, get your head out your ass.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

I mean, all great coaches, if you're down 15 at halftime in a game that you've worked all year to get here for, to get to the Final Four, it's not so much as about being down 15 is more so about the effort that you're giving. And I know my team. This isn't the guys that I coach night in and night out. This isn't the effort that I know we can play with. So to get all the way to this point and not give the effort, it really pisses you off even more. So you have to come in that locker room and it's, look, I don't know. Every coach is different. You scream, you yell, whatever. But when I was a kid, my dad used to always say, it's not so much. And I didn't Get S or Ds or anything like that. But when we would talk about grades, he would always say to us, it's not about you getting a bad grade. It's about you not applying yourself. If you just not smart enough to actually get through the class and get a high grade, that's one thing. But if you're sleeping, if you're not, if you're skipping, if you're doing all the things to where you're not even putting yourself in position to actually get a decent grade, then I can't. I can't. I can't reward that, and I can't go for that.

[A]

They call the third quarter the coaches quarter, right? Because you have half time to make adjustments and this and that. And sometimes it is drawing up plays and sometimes it's just motivating, guys.

[B]

It's motivating that.

[A]

That UConn team. I don't think Duke lost that game. I think UConn won it, and I think they won it with the. And by the way, we saw the same thing with Arizona. Both UConn and Arizona were in tough games where in the first half they looked flat and they came out in the second half with Defensive intensity, that was completely different.

[B]

Yeah, they came out the teams we know they could be. Look, that UConn game was not lost on that last play. Obviously, it's devastating for the young man. And. And when you look back, you can say there was a million other things that probably could have been done. Throw the ball up in the air, just hold it, get fouled, whatever, blah, blah, blah. We didn't play the game, so we can't say what was going through their mind. And young player, freshman, tough spot to be in. So you hate that for the kid. But again, you probably should have never even been in that situation, given the fact that you had the game under control. You probably had some turnovers down the stretch that you normally don't make. Uncharacteristic. When I talked to you last week about good shot versus great shot.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And the hardest thing to do.

[A]

Pass up a good shot for a great shot.

[B]

Yes. Have patience on the offensive end. And so those things. Long rebounds start fast breaks, it comes back to hunt you, and then the momentum, and then, you know, look, they're all young kids. So in that moment, as. As the. As the lead is dwindling down, it gets tougher and tougher.

[A]

15 points sounds like a lot. In today's game, it's anywhere between five and seven or eight possessions.

[B]

Well, look, if you go on a 90 run. Three threes in a row, now you're down to six.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Then you look up.

[A]

If you're counting by threes, it's five possessions. But it's not like. And so it's tough for a team, especially teenagers on a national stage, very tough to play loose enough that they can play their game, but also treat every possession like it's precious because the game will usually by a few possessions.

[B]

Well, this is where. When you talk about a guy like Acuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His temperament, his poise. In that moment, I'm not. What do you mean? Like, just give me the ball. I know what to do here, because there's a different. You carry something different with you in that moment. That's where those type of guys really make a difference. But look, it is an instant classic.

[A]

To your point, it sounds like you're. And it's always some of both. But if you had to say, like, it sounds like you're saying Duke lost the game. I think UConn won the game.

[B]

No, I'm not saying Duke lost the game. I agree with you. I think UConn did. Did win that level.

[A]

It was, like, electric in the second half. On defense.

[B]

Yeah. I think UConn won the game. I think there's some people out there that may think Duke lost the game, but it's hard when you. When you. Sometimes you start playing not to lose in moments.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

And that's a natural, natural thing. And speaking of UConn, because we talked about the backcourts the other day. These phones are crazy. Because this thing came up with Khalid El Amin and it was talking about him as a. Showing him as a really young player

[A]

with some of the greatest backcourts in NCAA history. Yeah.

[B]

And he committed to Minnesota as a sophomore, I think. Who was the coach? Glenn Haskins was the coach, I think maybe when he committed.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then two years later, he switches and he. And he goes to UConn. But it just showed him a flashback. He was so good, man.

[A]

Yeah. I want to get. But when you say they didn't lose the game on that possession. Duke. All right. But UConn kind of won the game on that possession because when you think of.

[B]

They forced a turnover.

[A]

Not only. So. So you think about how they forced the turnover. There were three different moments of defensive pressure on offensive players that wound up forcing the turnover. That's the first thing. Then they make the extra pass. Right. You think on offense, you don't just get the ball and you said pass up a good shot for a better one. Right. You don't just get the ball and desperately heave it up. You find the open man like every. The wherewithal and the presence of mind coupled with the intensity on defense and offense in the last few seconds of that game for kids who are 18 and 19 is very impressive.

[B]

Well, that's tremendous self awareness in that moment because the young man that got

[A]

the ball would normally shoot that.

[B]

No. Yes, normally you would. If you're not self aware in his mind. One brilliant. I have enough time to make a

[A]

passion like two seconds. Yeah.

[B]

The guy that's open is a much better shooter than I am.

[A]

Right. And has a better look.

[B]

Yes. And I'm self aware enough to where also I don't want to be the hero. I want to give us the best chance of winning.

[A]

Of course, he is a hero who won't be recorded in history as the same lever. But his team won because he made a smart play.

[B]

But here's the thing about that. Most kids, and this is what I talk about, most kids in that moment want to do what?

[A]

Be the hero.

[B]

Yeah. Be the hero.

[A]

Who doesn't?

[B]

Yeah. But then where does that drop off? Because now when you get to the NBA self aware. Offensive rebound, kick out the difference between. I mean it's hard to use names here, but I'll use a older name that's no longer in the league. Chris Bosh. Extremely, extremely self aware.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hall of Famer, all star, all NBA max player in his career. But in that moment was very self aware.

[A]

By the way, even you talk about MJ in the moment of truth who never scared to take the last shot at any level.

[B]

Self aware.

[A]

Paxton is open, Chip is on the line. He's like, okay, better shooter with a better look even though. And he's the dude who always took the last shot. But here it is and you know,

[B]

and it works and it's just the right basketball play. He's done that with Hodges, he's done it with Armstrong.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it wasn't in like the finals, but it was in Steve Curry big

[A]

shots when he find the open man.

[B]

Yes, of course.

[A]

This whole thing about that. That's why when anyone but they actually made it. We were talking like a month ago and I was like, you want the guy to have the fearlessness to take that shot. You definitely don't want the guy not to want the shot. But when ant took that three doubled in the corner at the end of the game, I had mixed feelings about it because on the one hand he's the man. It's good that he feels that way. On the other hand, nine times out of ten, that shot ain't going in like a double teamed in the corner at the end of the game. That's usually not going in. Yeah, yeah, maybe not nine times out of 10, it's eight times out of 10. Whatever it is, whatever the percentage is on that shot, even if you elevate the possibility because he's a great player and a clutch player and a clutch moment, it ain't going in more than 20 times.

[B]

The only reason why it wasn't that big of a deal to me.

[A]

Regular season game.

[B]

Regular season game.

[A]

Yeah. Agreed.

[B]

Yeah. But speaking of that before we.

[A]

What? No, no, no. I just wanted to. I said something about the super bowl in the NFL season or in the playoffs when the Seahawks beat the Rams, I congratulated them on winning the Super Bowl. And all these fans, like, especially Patriots fans were saying, like I'm saying that they're going to win the Super Bowl. But I was saying that, but it's not all I said. What I really meant was that is the super bowl. In other words, not that the winner of that game is going to Beat the Patriots. But the winner of. But those two teams were the best two teams. Right? So the winner wins. This is what I'm saying about. And I know it's tougher in college. Cause in the NCAA Tournament, basketball, with all the threes especially, we know easily get an upset. I feel like the championship game is actually Arizona, Michigan. I thought all year those are the two best teams. I think the winner of that game. It's not. I'm not saying that the winner of that game necessarily will not get upset because it could happen. But I feel like those are the best two teams and they're playing in the Final Four.

[B]

I don't know. I can't agree with that. I think Michigan has been really good all year, and so has Arizona. But that Illinois team is good, man.

[A]

So is UConn, obviously.

[B]

Yes, but I think UConn is good. But I think the Illinois team is really good.

[A]

Okay, so you like Illinois over UConn.

[B]

But I like Hurley. I mean, Hurley. Hurley, Hurley. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not going. I'm not betting against Hurley. But if we got. Look, if it's Arizona, Illinois is great in terms of branding.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Arizona, UConn you can't beat. I agree with you in Arizona, Michigan, you can't beat.

[A]

UConn. Michigan would be a huge deal. Huge deal.

[B]

UConn. Michigan is a big game.

[A]

Like, I mean, it's all good. I'm just saying to me, all year, the two best teams. At least the two most talented teams, the two teams. I felt like when you cut away everything and put yourself on a lie detector test, who do I think, from what I've seen is the best? I'd say Arizona and Michigan.

[B]

But see, I think Illinois is getting a. Is getting a bad break there because Illinois has been really good all year. They're just not. You're not looking for a lot of teams for.

[A]

So was produced.

[B]

No, but you're not looking for Illinois. But I'm telling you, I watched them play. When they came here and played usc, I actually went to the game.

[A]

So you're taking Illinois. Who's going to win the tournament?

[B]

I told you. Arizona.

[A]

Arizona. Yeah. We're on the same page.

[B]

Arizona.

[A]

By the way, this is like, perfect. Ready for this?

[B]

No, no.

[A]

You have something else before then I like.

[B]

You know what? Max?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm a little jealous today. Let me tell you why. Because you're holding out on me. Where are you getting all these? College.

[A]

Oh, the shooter's jerseys.

[B]

Shooter shirts?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that the game we playing. Because I can go there if you want.

[A]

But what I was going to. What I did was I was going to get one shooter shirt for each week of the tournament. So certain shirts I was looking for, as you know, I was looking for St. John's couldn't find it. But I wanted them from certain years. Right, right. I was looking for Georgetown. Couldn't find it. So I. So what I did was I did five slam at jama.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. This is Magic's.

[B]

I know who it is. Yes.

[A]

From Michigan State. And I got one more bird.

[B]

Indiana State.

[A]

I got one more. Waiting for next week for Monday.

[B]

You can't get for Monday. I got one thing, but it's not for Monday because Monday is supposed to be stand on business Mondays, which is why I'm here in the double breasted.

[A]

That's. I'm standing on business. I'm using your definition because I saw you not in the double breasted knot in the tie set. I thought this was stand on business Monday you said there's lots of different ways to.

[B]

That tape has been erased, by the way. We don't have that. Okay, listen, I'm just. Okay, so.

[A]

All right, so what I wanted to say was, look how seamless this is. Watch this, everybody. Rich, when everything's happening at once, teams need clarity. Because you brought up Bobby Hurley, right? When you're talking about UConn. I said, oh, you like Illinois? I don't know.

[B]

Hurley, Dan Hurley.

[A]

I said, bobby, sorry, Yes.

[B]

A lot of Hurleys.

[A]

I'll do that. A lot of Hurley. Dan Hurley. Pardon me. And it got me thinking. I said, the third quarter in the NBA, second half in college is the coaches quarter, right? And you think about how UConn came out for that second half. The level of defensive intensity changed the whole game to me. I mean, Arizona did the same thing, but we're fresh off this classic game. And it reminds me of like Emmanuel Stewart, the late, great Emanuel Stewart, one of the greatest boxing trainers ever. Rich. If you ever saw him in a corner, when a guy got back to the corner, you know, a lot of trainers, like, you gotta double up on the jab, then you throw the left hook to the body and you step around and give him 16 different things. The guy's getting punched in the face. He's too much. Right. Emanuel Stewart would just get in the corner and be like, I'm already drunk.

[B]

You talking.

[A]

Yeah, right. And you gave me 17 different instructions. Emmanuel Stewart would be like this. I need to see that jab. And that's it right? The next round he'd get back. If he didn't see the jab, he'd say, you're still not giving me that. I need to see the jab. Next round, he'd get back. Now he's throwing the jab. Now Manuel's onto the next thing. You need to double up on that jab and throw that hook to the body now. Right. It's one thing at a time simplifying. It's communication rich. That's why this segment is brought to you by Loom, the AI first video platform platform that is in English by Atlassian. That helps teams cut through the noise and move work forward. With Loom quickly record your screen and voice to share priorities, feedback and decisions with your team so there's no confusion about the next play. That's exactly what we're doing. This is the Loom layup rapid fire. Next steps for teams and fan bases navigating the madness. So that's, that's what made me think of this, which I just seamlessly worked into our show.

[B]

I need Loon to work for parenting.

[A]

For parenting.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because what they're talking about really is simple communication. Yeah.

[B]

I need Loon to be like, hey guys, here's what we're gonna do. We're leaving at 2 o'. Clock. So that doesn't mean that you start

[A]

getting ready at 5:32, right?

[B]

Yes. That means the car is backing out the driveway and we're going down the street at $150.

[A]

The only way to do that is maybe you could get Loom to communicate it, but you already, you just gotta play with it by a half hour. If you want them in the car at 2, you gotta tell them 1:30, we're outta here at 1:30. And then they'll be out by 2:15. They'll still push it.

[B]

But you know who was the loom of my childhood?

[A]

Who's that?

[B]

Leather.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Leather belt.

[B]

How about that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like, hey, eat those peas. I never forget it. I wouldn't eat my peas.

[A]

Talking about your mom or your dad.

[B]

Now, my dad. The only time ever I got in trouble about my dad was about those green peas. And guess what? Today I love green peas.

[A]

Now, for me, it was. I used to hope if I was being bad that my mom would hit me and my dad would punish me. Because my mother, it didn't really hurt and my father would never stick to the punishment. But if it was reverse and you got in my house, you got hit by my dad and Punished by my mom. That's the worst possible combination.

[B]

My mother hit like Marvin Hagler. I'd rather hurt. Hell no. Marvel Hagler, Minerva Hagler, Minerva. I'd rather her just yell and scream. Yeah, don't sweat.

[A]

Anyway. Communication is what Loom is telling you here, Rich. It's the most important thing. Cause the pressure's on. When the pressure's on, the teams that win are the ones who communicate clearly. That is true. Cut through the noise and stay in the loop with loom. It's a team changer. Try loom today at loom.

[B]

Can I represent loom? You represent coaches. They're like a AI coach.

[A]

Game over is brought to you by FanDuel baseball fans. America's pastime is a game of decisions. And FanDuel is bringing that same strategy to you for opening week with choose your own reward. Now you get to pick the promo you want to use and play how you want to play. Make your choice, and the reward will be ready to use instantly on your next MLB bet. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now to choose your reward for Major League Baseball's opening week. And FanDuel is now live in Arkansas. Play ball with a home for home runs on FanDuel, an official partner of MLB 21 and over in select states or 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required minimum 3 leg parlay. Required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply including any token expiration. Max wager amount. See [e-mail] gambling problem. Call 1-800-gambler, call 1888-978-97777 or visit ccpg.org chatincenetic all right, you know what, Rich? Let me do my five minute max, right? I want to do my five.

[B]

If it's gonna be five minutes because max, nine minutes.

[A]

Let me tell you something, okay? Denal time.

[B]

Which I wasn't mad about it because you did a really great job.

[A]

It was too long. It was too long. But here, we'll do five minute max. We'll start right now. Dean. So what's popping up on my reels? I mean, this algorithm can read your mind, right? What's popping up on my reels on my phone is more and more Barry Bonds. Maybe it's because he's popping up on TV and I'm. And I'm, you know, watching the games, right?

[B]

So Kanye made a great Barry.

[A]

But here's the thing about what one of the things that's coming up is people are marveling at his numbers, at the numbers he put up. But if you don't mention how he put up those numbers at a certain point, you're, you're not really telling the story. Here's the thing. I want to be very clear about this Barry Bonds, and I know he's on TV now and people are. It's awkward to bring this up because it's like, you know, he's broadcasting games and he's one of the greatest players of all time. Let me be very clear about this. Barry Bonds should obviously be a first ballot hall of Famer. Yes. Anything you do after the fact, like if you've already compiled a Hall of Fame career, first ballot hall of Fame career, I don't care what you do after that. Like Pete Rose bet on games. Come on, man. Pete Rose should have been in the hall of Fame. It doesn't. Whatever he bet doesn't take away his 4,000 hits, right? Ridiculous. Barry Bonds was, by the time I'm about to mention, one of the three greatest left fielders who ever lived him, Ted Williams or Stan Musial. He was an all time first ballot inner circle hall of Famer. Okay? For his career, he averaged a home run every 14 or so at bats. He had an on base percentage in the mid fours, which is incredible. Slugging in the mid six is incredible. One day he wakes up, he sees Sammy Sosa and Barry Bonds getting all the press. He's a much better player than them.

[B]

Sammy Sosa and Jose.

[A]

Sorry, sorry, no. And Mark McGwire.

[B]

Oh, Mark McGuire.

[A]

Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa getting all the press because they're hitting all these home runs and they're doing it in a way they never did before. They were home run hitters, but not like this. All of a sudden, and he's like, this is some bullshit. Right? Okay. Starting in the year 2000. Right? Like after the year 2000, Barry Bonds wakes up one day, no external changes in the game. It's not like the home run rate in the year 2001 suddenly spiked for everyone. It's not like he changed ballpark. So there was a new dimension in the ballpark. But suddenly he showed up looking physically very different, very quickly. And his home run to at bat ratio went from like 1 out of every 14 at bats to 1 every 6.5 at bats at the age of 35. Coupled with a sudden and dramatic change in his physical appearance. Come on. I know. No, not anyone could do that. Maybe. Only obviously, because a lot of guys were doing the same thing he was doing. And no one else put up his numbers cuz he's Barry Bonds. But the idea that he's the greatest hitter who ever lived, cuz look at the numbers is absurd. He was among the greatest players who ever lived until at the age of 35, he woke up suddenly and dramatically different in appearance. And his numbers changed in an unnatural way, in a way that no one's numbers ever in any sport have ever naturally changed. Suddenly his on base percentage was over.500. He was slugging over.800. So the stuff that makes he was already an undervalued and under recognized great. He won three MVPs, he was an all time great, but people didn't realize how great he was at his best. But this idea that oh my God, look at the Barry Bonds numbers, he's the greatest hitter ever. No, because he did something that turned him fundamentally into something he wasn't. He achieved levels at the plate he simply could never have achieved had he not done what now people might say, well, how do you know that for example, Aaron Judge isn't doing the same thing? And the answer is I don't. However, Aaron Judge got to the league looking like he looks now. His rookie season he had 52 home runs and had an arm base over four and a slugging over six. There was never a sudden and dramatic change in his physical appearance coupled with a sudden and dramatic change that would be otherwise inexplicable in his offensive production. So no, it is not the same. And I think so when those reels come up, oh my God, look at what Barry Bonds did. They're not even looking at the right stuff. You're looking at the cartoon numbers that really were not attributable solely to his own ability instead of his actual prime, which was incredible. So first ballot hall of Famer. Yes. Getting credit for being the greatest hitter who ever lived. Absurd.

[B]

Max.

[A]

How long was that? 418. Okay, there you go.

[B]

Great. But whoever thought, who would have ever thought.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That Wheaties and Lasik surgery would bring that type of production. Yes, it's fantastic.

[A]

Wheaties and Lasik surgery.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's unbelievable. He tried every. He wasn't really trying as hard as. Till he hit 35. Then he tried harder and look at what happened.

[B]

Wheaties and Lasik.

[A]

But the difference, I'll say this quick, the difference between bonds and McGwire and Sosa is bonds the first ballot hall of Famer. I don't care if he's still not in. He should have been. McGwire and Sosa should never Sniff the Hall of Fame because they didn't have hall of Fame ability. They were. If you look at their production, they were on their way out of the league. You know, in terms of their decline in production, though, they were at one point good, very good players and great power hitters, especially Maguire. But they were like this until suddenly they became the greatest power hitters ever. Come on.

[B]

I know. What else was like this. The viewership in baseball and that.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

Oh, my God. Everyone was tuned in different. It was a great time in baseball.

[A]

Two different arguments. If you want to say, hey, that stuff was good for baseball, I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just saying to give Guy credit for being something that he really wasn't is not fair.

[B]

Well, I ate Raisin Bran and I

[A]

didn't need to, otherwise you'd have been in the league.

[B]

But I also didn't swing the bat like that.

[A]

So, hey, you got to get rich quick, since I just did a five minute.

[B]

Max. No, I don't.

[A]

It says right here, wow factor. You had to be thinking something when you texted me this.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We don't have to do it.

[B]

No, no, this. No, no, I did. I was just messing with it. No, but I wanted to ask you, Max, what happened to wow factor? Seriously? Do you believe? Because what made me come to this was De and I were riding and we were just. And it was like, damn, man. Do you remember when things just used to excite you? Yeah.

[A]

We've had this conversation off air, and

[B]

I'm like, well, it was. I just think, like, social media going back to social media has taken away the wow factor of things. We used to play bingo. Now, was it because we absolutely had nothing. And so a silver Corsica bends the corner on 125th in Arlington. I'm like, bingo. Because it's brand new and the fender isn't falling off of it. Or is it really because, like, things had wow factor. I think today with social media and now. AI, when you were a kid, you'd never seen watching Back to the Future when you first seen the DeLorean, right? You like, whoa, you know, the doors go up in the air. The doors start going up in the air. Everybody wanted that so much. So the 300 Chrysler came out. People put Lamborghini doors on the 300 Chrysler, which was, I thought was absurd

[A]

to be Even before the DeLorean, the Lamborghini, I think it was a countach right where the door went up.

[B]

Right. But to really see a Lamborghini, like, if you had to go. If you'd never been to LA before and you went on Rodeo and you saw the Lamborghinis parked on Rodeo, that was pretty cool. You was like, wow.

[A]

I'm sure we've had, maybe we may have even had this conversation on the air. I remember a PS41 schoolyard. Every now and then on whatever that is, Waverly or whatever, you know, there'd be some car like that and all the kids be lined up on the fence looking.

[B]

Yes. And so when you talk about material

[A]

things, 1982 or whatever, not to be

[B]

so into material things, but also for people as well. Like if you are, and this is why social media kind of goes, it's good and it's bad in a lot of ways. Like MJ had tremendous mystique, right. You didn't see him now if you was in Cleveland, you saw him every now and then at the Mirage, if he was him and Oak was hanging out. But you didn't really see them. Today's athlete you see all the time overexposed, whether on social media, et cetera. So does that play into the wow factor aspect of it? Right, so. But at the same time, if you sign a marketing contract or if you do a deal, have a partnership, that brand is gonna want you to be, you know, part of your deliverables is to be on social. Right. How many posts this, stories that, et cetera. So there's a balancing act there. But just as a human being, if you had the aspirations or the inspiration to want to go to Fiji or

[A]

anywhere you see it, even in your imagination. Rich, I think this is my. If I'm doom scrolling, the most hilarious kind of reel to me is they'll show what would you do if this happened? It'd be like the moon exploded or some planet is about to collide with Earth. What do you mean? What would you do? Idiotic, right? But the point is, in terms of wow factor and awe and stuff like that, social media is filled with like AI slop or whatever you want to call it, that is intended to create a sense of awe in you, right? So. And you are inundated with it constantly, all day, everywhere you look. So yeah, it's hard to get the same kind of reaction because you get numb to it, that's all. Everywhere you look, it's, look at this most incredible thing you've ever seen. Everyone's lives is now walking through Times Square, basically.

[B]

So I try to maintain that wow within things because I never want to get how. Well, just, you know, really just by Appreciation. Appreciation through osmosis in a lot of ways.

[A]

Absorb. Yeah.

[B]

Because the thing about it is, if you get to the point to where nothing excites you, if you get to the point to where you don't enjoy building those moments and building those memories, like, Dean and I were talking about this the other day as well. We go up in the spot, and he's sitting there thinking that something is going to take place because it took place the time before. And we get there and all we get was a hot chocolate and a green juice. And he's like, damn, man. That was. That was. He felt like it was a bad day. I'm like, it's not a bad day, D. It's. It's a really nice day. We had it. We had a.

[A]

This is the problem with. This is the. This is what, like, certain drugs do to you. Like, you have a certain kind of drug epidemic. Part of the problem about that because. Because social media is a drug. I mean, it should be regulated like a drug, actually. But. And this is the issue, especially with young people. I see it with my kids. I see it with myself. Is that the reward? The reason you keep scrolling and I do this, the reason you keep scrolling is you get little dopamine hits, you get little rewards. Your reward system flashes for a second, and over time, it gets depleted. It gets used to it. And so now you can't find pleasure in anything. All you find is distraction. Right. That's a real issue of social media.

[B]

That's a. It's a bad thing. Like, so I was just. I was just the reason why I had that. I was just wondering, like, what can

[A]

you do about it? You could stay off your phone. That's the number one thing you could probably do about it. So, yeah, you could sometimes put your. Sometimes when my. I'm with my kids, sometimes I'll force myself to put my phone down or put it out of my reach because without even realizing it, I'm with my kids and I'll reach for my phone. I got to, you know, and they'll do the same thing.

[B]

Yeah. So, you know, I appreciate having wow factor. I think wow factor is important. I think wow factor drives you. I think wow factor inspires you. It motivates you. And it's necessary. It's necessary to have wow factor.

[A]

The moment, the sense of awe about the world.

[B]

Yeah. The moment you lose. And it don't have to be only materialistic. I'll tell you something. Wow factor could be in another human as well. The problem we have today is everyone wants to do the opposite and not have a wow factor towards another human being.

[A]

You mean cause of game.

[B]

Whether it's game, whether it's sporting, whatever the case may be.

[A]

In other words, you don't want to seem impressed by anything.

[B]

Yes. And that's whack to me. Like, how could you not be impressed by somebody who done such a great thing that you're trying to follow in these footsteps of. Now their shoe is going to be a different size than your shoe, but the footsteps are still there, leading you in the right direction. That to me isn't. Is a big issue, especially in sports. It's a big issue. So I don't know, I just.

[A]

Especially in sports. Because why? Because we see so many amazing things that we're not amazed by amazing anymore.

[B]

Well, I think that's where the. Somewhat of a disrespect creeps in to where it's like, I'm not going. I'm not going to deride this person. It's not that. It's not. It's not doing that. It's actually paying homage. Right? So I think there's a world where you could do both. The world where you can still be competitive in between the lines, but outside the lines you could be like, man, you know, I once had.

[A]

I really appreciate a conversation, you could call it bumping into Floyd Mayweather probably in Vegas. When I had picked someone against him or said something, I forgot what. But he was like, listen, how could you pick something basically. But early in his career, I was very high on Floyd. But he was, but, but he was like.

[B]

Was he fighting?

[A]

He had said something? No, he. Yeah, he was like saying he was a junior lightweight at the time, I want to say. And he was talking about fighting some welterweight, I think probably like way division, whatever it was. But he didn't like something I'd said. And he's like, yo, more or less, when I do this, don't sweat me, you know, like, don't jump on the train at that point. Right. And I was like, well, if what you mean is I'm gonna sing your praises, if you get it done, then I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna do. Of course I'm gonna do that.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, I think there is something where people have a sense of pride, not just talking about media, I mean fans where they don't wanna feel like they're jockeying somebody, you know. But the fact is it's okay to be in awe of great things.

[B]

Absolutely. There you go, it's okay to be in awe. It's okay to be in awe of greatness.

[A]

Yes, it is. You don't have to be in awe of me on this show. We could just be friends. But I can understand it.

[B]

I'm in awe of you sometimes, Max.

[A]

Well, likewise. Likewise. See that? This episode is brought to you by loom. When your calendar's all status meetings and your teams are still misaligned, it's easy to feel stuck. Get your org unstuck with Loom, the AI first video platform by Atlassian. Record a LOOM to share priorities, feedback and key decisions. AI makes video editing one click and adds instant summaries so everyone from direct reports to partner teams gets clarity in minutes, not meetings. With Loom teams stay aligned and focus on work that matters. It's a team changer. Try Loom [e-mail] Knicks lose to the Thunder. Thunder looks. By the way. Thunder. Thunder are healthy. Denver's healthy. Thunder are healthy. Lakers are healthy. Yeah, yeah. By the way, does it before we even get to the Sixers and the Celtics, because they're both healthy. And that's an interesting question. Do you think SGA gets unfair whistles?

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

Let me ask you a question.

[B]

Are you still on this?

[A]

Yeah. Do you think you. I don't. I.

[B]

It's been a month.

[A]

I understand gaming the system. That's what smart players do. But an SGA is. Doesn't have to foul hunt in order to be very effective. But he does foul hunt. Look, Jalen Brunson does too, right? The Knicks and the Thunder, their best players are point guards who both foul hunt. And really the difference is one guy's 6 foot 5 or whatever, 6 foot 6 and the other guy's 6ft tall. So that, you know, SGA has the advantage. But do you think he gets the MVP whistles? The superstar whistles?

[B]

I don't know, man. I don't think so. I think there's a lot of questionable calls, but you could say it about anybody.

[A]

There's something about foul hunting I hate as a fan. And I know why players do it. I can't blame them. They're incentivized to do it. Why wouldn't you want a free throw? But like James Harden, Luka Doncic. I mentioned Brunson, who I love. He's a Knick and all that. And a winning player.

[B]

That's part of the game.

[A]

Sga, you can manipulate.

[B]

Here's the thing.

[A]

MJ and Kobe did not foul. They got caught. They got whistles blown for him. But they weren't being doing the big soccer act. It wasn't part of the game back then.

[B]

But that also wasn't part of their skill set.

[A]

It what they drew. They got to the foul hunt.

[B]

Yeah. What I'm saying is they didn't need MJ and Kobe didn't need to foul hunt, right? Yeah, they didn't need to do that.

[A]

That's my point. Watching him, I'm like, he doesn't need to do it, but I guess he should.

[B]

But see, you can't have it both ways.

[A]

I like. I like to. I like to have it no matter when, no matter what.

[B]

You want your cake?

[A]

Yeah, I want my cake and eat it, too.

[B]

But here's what I'll say to you.

[A]

I can't say the way you phrased it, or you tell me to pause. That's the world we're living in. But I would like my cake and eat it, too.

[B]

You know what?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me stay focused here. In the event there's. The team is in the penalty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Thunder are up three.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

SGA has the ball. A guy switches on him, Right. He gets the switch, and he makes a move to where he pump fakes, and you foul him. That is a smart play by SGA. DeMar DeRozan did this. James Harden did this, and he's still got to go to the free throw line and knock the free throws down.

[A]

And I think the league is taking steps to address this. There's just. The steps aren't large enough or fast enough, but they are sometimes reviewing it and going and basically calling the guy for foul hunting. But they need to do it much more.

[B]

Yes, but what is foul hunting? If fouling is a part of the sport and you foul me.

[A]

Okay, I'll show you. I'll tell you what foul hunting is. I make a move to get you up in the air, and then it's not like you come down on me, but I then move into you so that you. So I'm drawing contact. If I'm the ref, I don't. I don't call that.

[B]

Okay, well, if it's obvious, that's one thing. But if I make a move and just say he goes in and out and he pumps fakes, you jump up in the air, meaning you're now out of control. You do not have control of your body.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And. And I go to a point to where it's not so obvious where I'm leaning all the way into you, but it's in my, you know, My flow of my shot.

[A]

Yep. And you, and you hit off balance

[B]

any way you get me off balance and it affects my shot. It's a foul.

[A]

Yeah, but, but in that case, the league should only call it when you're making a natural shooting motion that you would otherwise make. If I, if I'm a ref and I see you didn't have to do that. If you didn't have to do that, you ain't getting the call. Okay, you know what would happen in that case? People would stop foul hunting and the game would get better.

[B]

Yes, but here's what I was saying. Everybody has the same film room, right? If you're watching a film and you're actually understanding the tendencies of your opponent and you're taking the time out to really study people that you're going to play night in and night out. There used to be guys like this in our league in abundance that you knew were locked down. Guys, the Tony Allens, the Reuben Pattersons, the Ron Artest, these type of guys. That was even, even a guy like Marcus Smart. You watch Marcus smart play. He is a very smart defender in this case with sga. He does a great job of getting guys to switch on him. He does a great job of playing with, with, with pace. Like. I just don't, I just don't agree with all of the whining about it. Now. Some calls, yes, but not.

[A]

Listen, you just listen. This is, this is, this is just because you mentioned his name. It's not. I know why you brought Artest into that because he deserves credit for the defense. It's not even fair to lump him in with those other guys because when you bring up Artest or Metta World piece, he was also carrying offensive load while he was playing defense like that. And he was clutch when it mattered most. He did an underrated, truly great player.

[B]

Mehta was a really, really, really, really good player everywhere he played. I'm just saying in terms of. I hear the.

[A]

I know it's not about your point. I just had to say that, yeah,

[B]

I hear the complaints. I think the whistle will change in the playoffs and that's the danger of it. Like, because the offensive player too also has to understand, okay, well, I'm not getting those same calls if he's not getting those same calls in the finals or in the playoffs. But he's still having the same production. Do we blame it on the foul hunting if he scored 32 and you say he's foul?

[A]

No. If he's able to pull it off in the playoffs, without all the calls. Good for him. We'll see what happens. By the way, Healthy Thunder, your title favorites, yes or no?

[B]

Is the Healthy Thunder my title favorites? Well, I mean, you can't go against the Thunder until someone actually beats them.

[A]

I'm going against the Thunder. I'll take the Spurs.

[B]

Yeah, you're taking the Spurs. I would say it wouldn't surprise me if the Thunder in the finals. It wouldn't surprise me if the spurs

[A]

in the finals, but would you make them the favorites, the Thunder of the favorites?

[B]

I think you asked me this before I took the field, but no odds

[A]

on favorites, meaning more of a favorite than anyone else?

[B]

No, I think. I think. I think there's several teams that could win the championship this year.

[A]

Okay, so the Thunder, the Nuggets, the spurs are all more or less even in your mind?

[B]

Yes, I think any one of those teams can win a champion.

[A]

By the way, I saw something that the score was. It was on a reel that the score had put out. Right. Wemby's comps through 175 games. Before I. Before I get even. Get to the numbers and the comp comparisons of different players through 175 games of their careers. Understand, whenever someone puts together a list like this, he has more points than blank player through 175 games. They're always going to look for the most impressive name they can find who maybe didn't score as many points as you think or whatever to make Wemby look as good as possible. So I say that as the. As the prologue to what I'm about to say. Okay, but consider this for a second. More points than Larry Bird through 175 games. The first 175 games of his career, more points than Bird. Bird was a scorer at the highest level. More rebounds than Charles Barkley through 175 games of his career.

[B]

We can't do this.

[A]

Hold on.

[B]

We can't do this.

[A]

Come on. More blocks than Hakeem through the first 175 games of their. Of both of their careers. So you have a guy who scores a little more than Bert did, rebounds a little more than Barkley did, and blocks a little more than Hakeem did through the first 175 games of his career.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

More steals than Kobe through the first 175 games of their career, who's a good perimeter defender. More threes than Steph Curry through the first 175 games in their career.

[B]

Now, that one I will give you is extremely impressive.

[A]

They're all impressive.

[B]

No, no, no. That one is impressive. No, he's coming.

[A]

But he was coming up in a league and Steph was. But to contextualize it, Steph was coming up in a league that had not yet experienced Steph Curry. So even he wasn't shooting as many threes as he would eventually because of himself, because he introduced the kind of high volume 3 to a level that had not been witnessed before.

[B]

I understand what you just said, but you.

[A]

More blocks than Hakeem, more threes than

[B]

Steph, more blocks than Hakeem. If he was 5, 4 and you said he had more blocks than Hakeem,

[A]

what you're saying, yes, you expect him to rebound, score and block shots. But Steve, more steals than Kobe, he's 7 4.

[B]

He steals the ball more than Kobe is half the length of the court. So if you pass the ball, he's going to possibly steal it.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Okay, let's just be clear about that. The three point shooting is where you got me and let me tell you why. All right. The hand size of a 74 human being does not necessarily coincide with touch

[A]

and the height doesn't coincide. This is what I'm about to say with arc.

[B]

Now, the next thing is the height does not necessarily coincide with having proper arc, proper rotation. And as one of the best shooters ever, myself, I'll tell you this, how hard this is to do Max. So when you talk about an impressive stat, that's impressive.

[A]

Yeah, I think the whole thing is.

[B]

I mean, Wimy himself is impressive. We'll be seeing that.

[A]

When Hakeem was in his prime, what was amazing was he would lead the league or be up there in blocks and steals and it'd be like, damn, that's a lot for a center to be doing. Right? Or he was a center, really. There were years where you could call. But he's a center.

[B]

I came with 7. 7ft.

[A]

Yeah, we call him 6. 11ft.

[B]

6.

[A]

Yeah, we call him 7ft. My guess would be 6, 10. But they called him 7. And I'll go with 7. But now you add in Wemby, you. You add the three, It's Hakeem plus the three. It's insane.

[B]

Spurs. But.

[A]

And that's how. And then you have Castle and you have Harper.

[B]

No, but how many players they have averaging.

[A]

Oh, so in addition to this, the spurs have eight guys. They're on pace to have eight guys finish the season averaging double digit scoring. And that would be the first time in the history of the NBA. Again, if the league. The pace of the league and the number of threes that are scoring. I'm sure there were teams in the past with eight guys that averaged eight or nine points, which is the same thing as averaging 10 today. It doesn't mean that. Oh, my God, this is the most balanced one through eight that we've ever seen. But it's impressive. Period. It's impressive.

[B]

Listen, it's why I say anybody can win, because that's team. That just. That is how you spell team across the board.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. No, I like.

[B]

But the spurs, healthy.

[A]

I think they should be the best.

[B]

The Thunder healthy. The Nuggets healthy. Come out the West.

[A]

What about. Look, the Celtics beat the Hornets. So did the Sixers over the weekend. But so sometimes in the NBA you have a schedule loss, right? Like people talk about, you're on the road second to back to back on the road. That's probably going to lose. But three games and four nights, even if you're at home, it's a lot.

[B]

So don't matter who you play. You could be playing the local church team.

[A]

But the Hornets, who were. Who were, you know, electrifying, beat the Knicks at home on regular rest, then they have a day off, then they play back to backs at home, lose to the Sixers and the Celtics.

[B]

They didn't just lose to the Sixers, they lost to a healthy Sixers and a healthy Celtics. Yeah, no, well, that's true. No, the Celtics.

[A]

Tatum's healthy. But they are. Yeah, but.

[B]

But what I'm saying is you, You're. I told you this before, and I'm going to say it again, and there's another team in the west about this.

[A]

Nuggets.

[B]

No, not just the Nuggets. When I'm.

[A]

I look at the Sixers, Nuggets, Lakers.

[B]

No, no, no. I'm saying that you don't want to play.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

I look at the Sixers in the East. Ho. And I said this to Tyrese yesterday. It's just when you have him and PG and Embiid and rest in between games. Edgecomb, right? Edgecomb is a rookie, but his athleticism, his intensity on the defensive end is there. He's not afraid. He fits perfect next to Tyrese. There'll be a really good backcourt for a long time. But you don't want to play these guys in the first round.

[A]

So. So. Right. I agree. So here's the question.

[B]

And the Clippers are my other team,

[A]

Max, if they're fully healthy. But if they would have kept Zubac,

[B]

maybe I'm just I watch a lot of Clipper games now. You see, first of all, Kawhi is playing out of his mind. No, no, no. Yeah.

[A]

All season.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is not new. It's all season.

[B]

Like out of his mind. He hit the game winner the other day in Indiana out of his mind. Since Darius has been back, you know his numbers?

[A]

No.

[B]

90 from the free throw line, 60 from the field, 60 from the three point line.

[A]

Sounds sustainable.

[B]

Yeah, it's not sustainable, but it's insane. And again, it's 56.

[A]

By the way, what I say, when they made that deal, I thought it was highway robbery for the Clippers.

[B]

56, 58. Somebody will say it, but I round up.

[A]

But they got those type of numbers. Clippers got a building block guy, pick and roll, building block guy for a veteran who changes teams every year.

[B]

And there's a metric that Darius's numbers out of a pick and roll. From a decision making perspective.

[A]

Yeah. Or like elite. Elite.

[B]

I think he's number one or number two in the league in decision making. You know, like probably hardened or him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I look at that. Yeah, it might be. I look at that team with. With the length they have, the defensive intensity now. Could everybody use more shooting? Yes. But when you got a guy like Kawhi playing how he's playing, it's tough. They lost the big young kid down, you know, with the. With the foot injury. But I like a healthy Clipper.

[A]

Okay, but let's get to. But I mean, we could talk about the Nuggets, the Lakers, the clock. Like a lot of teams that are getting healthy now, the two I want to ask you about, because I was thinking about this myself and I have an answer to it. If they're both healthy. So that means, like if you include Edgecomb in a kind of big four. It's hard. You look around the league and you say if Embiid and Paul, George and Maxi and Edgecomb are all healthy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How many teams have four guys in their starting five like that? But the Celtics, on the other hand, if Tatum and Brown are healthy, just. I mean. Yes. They get a big center who can score and they have other things and they have Pritchard off the bench and all this stuff. Or even you could start them if you want. But the point is Tatum and Brown healthy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Versus. So a whole Sixers team versus a whole Celtics team. They meet each other in the playoffs, who wins?

[B]

They would.

[A]

No. Yeah. Let's say they do. Who wins?

[B]

Oh, man, that's a good one.

[A]

I have an answer, but it Took me a while to get there.

[B]

I think it goes seven. I don't know who wins. I think it goes seven, though.

[A]

I think the Celtics win in seven or six. I don't know the answer to that. But in the end, I think that if everyone's firing on all cylinders, the way Brown has played this year, if Tatum could be most of his normal self, you might have the two best players on the floor. If you're the. If you're the Celtics.

[B]

Yeah. You would expect for him to have a tube.

[A]

You wouldn't say that normally, if you put Brown at his best, Embiid at his best. Right. Or maxi to best. Brown is close. But the way Brown's playing this year, the. He's like in the outskirts of the MVP conversation.

[B]

No, but you have to look at it a different way. You have to look at it as people canceling each other out because you could say they may have the two best players, but Tyrese Maxey's coming to play every night. You don't have to worry about that. So if he has 30 and Brown has 30, you x that out. Paul George have 30 and Tatum have 30, you x that out.

[A]

When does Paul. Paul George getting 30 in the playoffs is not an everyday thing.

[B]

No, but he's capable of doing it

[A]

on a given night. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Or switch it for Embiid. Whatever you want to do.

[A]

Paul George does not cancel out Tatum.

[B]

No, no, I'm saying, I'm saying in terms of point totals, so if you, if you got.

[A]

But you're. You're like. I'm talking about overall play both ends of the floor.

[B]

Yeah, but Tatum in the playoffs, to

[A]

me, when teams are sort of evenly matched, when it's. When you get to a seven game. Seven game means that they're basically evenly matched. This is why to me, Bill Russell, of all the non modern or of all the players who didn't play in the modern era, Bill Russell is the greatest. Because anytime it came down to a deciding game, that means they're basically evenly matched.

[B]

What does Derrick White.

[A]

College, high school, college pros. Bill Russell's team always won. And the reason you win always in that situation is you got the best player on the floor.

[B]

Yeah. I think the X factor is going to be Derrick White in that situation. In that. In that series. The X factor is Derek is a

[A]

role player who plays at a certain level.

[B]

And if Derrick White has a great series, then I can understand your point.

[A]

It's not a bad point, actually. And he's capable of it.

[B]

Yeah, he of course he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think in those series Sixers.

[A]

Are you saying it goes seven? Who do you take?

[B]

I think it goes seven.

[A]

Who do you.

[B]

I don't know who wins. I just think it goes seven. I really don't know who wins that. I would love to see it.

[A]

If the question was how many games does it go. You have answered the question. However, the question is who do you pick? In the end, you gotta pick one.

[B]

I don't get anything out of picking somebody.

[A]

All right, I'll take the Celtics. But it took me a while to get there the Sixers because I never envisioned that the Sixers would be fully healthy heading into the playoffs.

[B]

Well, let's do. Let's do. What factors into the game seven would be in Boston.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So that. So you have right away edge that. That again.

[A]

Then they have to figure out how to like Embiid when he was at his best, did not have to play with a young ascending backcourt who knew how to play together. You know, like you're running the offense through him.

[B]

It depended on what Embiid comes to the table. And also the others. I always say, like, in order to win, it's about the others. It's not going to be about the big name guys. Is going to be about the others.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. MVPs always make the game more exciting. You just get such a thrill watching players like Jerry Rice, Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor, that's my favorite of all time, dominate the field. And no matter how much time passes, it's fun to look back on everything they did and accomplished. There's a reason we continue to remember their names among the hundreds and thousands of other football players. You probably want your own Jerry Rice or Jim Brown for your team too, right? The trick is to find them. It can take days, months to sort through all the resumes and find that perfect fit for your business. Unless you use ZipRecruiter. It's like your own private scouting department. You can even try it [e-mail] GameOver along with its smart matching tech, ZipRecruiter has a new feature to help connect you immediately with qualified candidates who are interested in your role. And they can tell you in their own words about why they're interested, which can tell you a lot more about them as a person. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts. With ZipRecruiter, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruck Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Somewhere out there is a Chevy truck. And the person who drives it, well, that's a Chevy person. You probably know one. Your buddy, your sister, ones who always show up. They're the first to rise, the last to leave. They always have that little extra something. And maybe you've got it, too. Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit chevy.com trucks to explore the lineup. You see, I mean, Michael Jordan every now and then. He even did this when he was an active player.

[B]

Came out, he's been winning a lot.

[A]

Came out and said, you know, there's no such thing. I don't do the goat. There's no such thing as a goat. Because he's always asked, are you the goat?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he is celebrated for the fact that even when he was active, he said, you can't say goat because I wouldn't be. I wouldn't have my game if. And he'd name all the greats that came before him. He would even talk about guys. It's not like he just said Elgin Bale or Dr. J, like his lineage of kind of that type of player. He would talk about Bill Russell and Wilt and all these guys, the guys who paved the way. So he. And then recently he was asked again and said, there's no such thing as the goat. What do you think about that?

[B]

I look at that. I like it, actually. I like it. I think comparisons are the thief of joy. I said this before, and I think having that goat conversation, one gives the haters an out, right? Especially the LeBron haters because he. He has so many of them. It gives them an out to say, oh, and it dampens the greatness that we're witnessing by players, especially that player. But players. And when you talk about the greatest of all time, there's very few guys that can actually really have that conversation. There's a lot of guys having the greatest of all time conversation. And they wasn't even like, the goodest of their era.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not even their era, like of a game. So you can't really have that conversation. But like, you talked about rap beefs the other day for the sake of rap battles. You think it's good for. Do you think it's the goat conversation? I think it's good for Barbershop.

[A]

I do. And let me tell you something else. One of the most influential books. This is a book I would like include in my version of the Western canon.

[B]

And I know good is is not

[A]

a word, but because, no, I use it all the time, the goodest versus the greatest and all that. But I would say that one of the books that was very influential in terms of the way I think about comparative analysis was Bill James historical baseball abstract volume. I think it was one. Came out when I was 13 years old, actually. It was a gift from my bar mitzvah. I got it. And. And I think. And there was a certain kind of rigorous, but also an art of the way Bill James went about comparing players. And for the first time I thought, oh, this is someone who's trying to really apply criteria consistently and really come up with a way of somehow isolating and measuring the greatness of players and then comparing one to another and whether people think that can ever be done and it can never be done perfectly. To me, it's like the other day when we were talking about our educational system and you were saying you learn so many things you don't really need, and you don't learn certain other things you do need. But the idea of learning trigonometry is not that you'll ever necessarily use it. It's that you train your brain in terms of how to think. And I think that anything that does that is good for you. And when people have the barbershop or the lunchroom or the street corner or the water cooler debate, when they're and do or they're essentially doing comparative analysis, I think it's good for the brain.

[B]

Yeah, I think so, too. I think I would like the goat conversation to stay. I understand Michael Jordan, what he's saying, and I do agree with him in that. But it's a good thing for barbershop talk, I think.

[A]

And it's fun.

[B]

Yeah, it's fun. Did you see where Isaiah said that if you switched Kevin Durant for Michael Jordan, that Kevin would have six rings?

[A]

They wouldn't have six, but they would have a handful. You don't have as many as.

[B]

The point he made was in the triangle with that supporting cast, but also

[A]

Kevin Durant, to Michael Jordan's point, Kevin Durant would not exist as the kind of player that he is now had he played then. First of all, if you're 7ft tall, they're going to ask you to do different things then than they let you do now. Secondly, no one's going to let you shoot from three as much as they did post Steph Curry. As a result, his 3 is not going to be as sweet. Right? Like, there are all kinds. Now, he'd be really. He'd be better at certain other things because. But the point is, he would be. Of course, if you put someone with Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant and Phil Jackson and later Dennis Rodman and he's a super great player, they will win some championships. I don't think they go six for

[B]

six, but I think they went three or four. Yeah, but you made a point. And back in those days, this was a big issue. If Kevin Durant actually showed up as Kevin Durant, 7ft, you pluck them out

[A]

of now and drop them there. Yeah, but people would be like, this is from outer space.

[B]

Yeah, but. But my question is, will the general manager and will the coach be smart enough and not be so stuck in their ways to say no, so what? He's seven feet. He has the skill set of a guard. I'm going to play him.

[A]

Most would screw it up.

[B]

They would screw it up. Most would screw it up. Yes, they would.

[A]

Shaq talks about. You see, like, why Shaq likes Giannis so much is because he sees himself in Giannis. Like, people think of shaq as a 350 pounder nowadays. When Shaq first came in, he was slim. I mean, he was big and strong, but he was athletic. He could handle for a big guy. He could. He could pass. He could. Like, Shaq watches Giannis and goes, man, I wish they would.

[B]

That hurt. A lot of players seek growth and success in the NBA because they played for these coaches that were so stuck in their ways and wanted to do things like they always did before and. But we praise these people as great coaches. Well, not so much, because part of being a great coach is evaluating talent.

[A]

It's also like being able to implement the. It's also risk aversion. Like, you know, if you fail doing things in a conventional way, people won't say you're crazy. They'll be like, oh, it didn't work out. But, you know, they won't criticize you if you fail doing something unconventionally. See, you can never win like that. Like d', Antoni, seven seconds or less, you can't win. Now, maybe d' Antoni didn't stress defense enough. Obviously he didn't, but the whole thing, and I was on the Charles Barkley bandwagon, I was one of those people saying, yeah, you can't win shooting this many threes. As Phil Jackson says, what it leads to is, you know, run at right, like, you Know, you miss the three, and it's a long rebound and. But in the end, actually, you can win like that. But you have to have the guts to be someone who tries it, because if and when it fails, because even if it eventually works, doesn't work right away, a lot of the time they're going to say, you're stupid, you're bad, you don't know what you're doing. You're going to be criticized differently for it.

[B]

And the smarts to put the proper team together around the shooting, which is what the warriors did. And they won a lot. Yeah, but no, even.

[A]

That took an evolution, though, Rich.

[B]

It did.

[A]

That took Mark Jackson getting his hands on Steph and Clay and telling them, don't worry about where you shoot from. Don't worry about how many threes you shoot. Do it. Just do it. But that wasn't enough. Then they needed Steve Kerr to come in and make the offense more fluid after that because they were, like, last in the league and a lot of stuff, but. So I don't know if Steve Kerr comes in without Mark Jackson ever being there. If. And the culture's not, hey, yeah, you can shoot from anywhere you want.

[B]

That's all.

[A]

Maybe it doesn't work, but they still

[B]

had the skill set to do it. They wasn't shooting bricks.

[A]

Right? 100%. Yeah.

[B]

The ball was going in. But I see things on social media about this conversation, the goat conversation, people. Obviously, they'll make it about other things. But no, I like it coming from Mike, because he's one of the people that can talk about it, I think.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And I think that, you know, I still think the better basketball players, you know who. But you know who then?

[A]

Michael Jordan. I can't imagine.

[B]

No, it's LeBron James. The better basketball player than who? Than everybody ever.

[A]

Then Michael Jordan. I'm sure LeBron James is better at certain things than Michael Jordan.

[B]

The better basketball player, Max. Yes.

[A]

Not basketball.

[B]

We're not talking like a sous chef.

[A]

Not basketball.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we agree. Baseball. Jordan wasn't that good at baseball. LeBron looks at, you know, he might

[B]

be able to do it. No, basketball, Basketball.

[A]

You remember Michael Jordan, Orange. Are you familiar with.

[B]

No bigger fan than me, I think.

[A]

I beg to differ.

[B]

You're a bigger fan than me, apparently.

[A]

I didn't know. I didn't know that was. No, you could be a fan. I hate Michael Jordan. Used to kill my Knicks every year.

[B]

I never hated Michael Jordan. You sound crazy.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, that didn't stop me from. I Told you. I put an $8 MJ ball on layaway at Paragon Sports on 17 17th Street. Eight bucks. I paid it off like $2. Like 10 years old. Paid it off like $2. Yeah.

[B]

I thought I was broke as a kid.

[A]

No, I mean, listen, wasn't broke, but still something. I'm joking.

[B]

I used to go to layaway all the time. Value City right there on Lakeshore.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I love the layaway. Yeah.

[A]

The best.

[B]

Yes. Because you could think about it, be like, you know what? Yeah, I don't want that. I could change my mind now or.

[A]

It just didn't hurt as much. Listen, you buy a car, you pay Cat. Well, maybe I'm talking to the wrong guy. Most people don't pay cash for the car every time.

[B]

Why would I pay cash for a car? It's a depreciating asset.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Are you crazy?

[A]

Right? There you go. Okay, you know what? You want to just get to the email. We've done a lot today.

[B]

We did. We had a good show.

[A]

I like it. All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this guy who wrote you were wrong again today. But listen, Rob Melody, he wants a shout out. Rob, you're getting one ready for this?

[B]

Rob Melody. Where's he from?

[A]

Let's just do one email today. Because people were writing novels. It's unbelievable. Assuming 2026 and who cares what order for now, put Joker, SGA, WEMBY, Luka should be Giannis fifth. But let's put pick Jaylen Brown. So he seems to be putting an all star team together. All NBA team. All NBA teams. This is eastern.

[B]

Sounds like it to me.

[A]

Point is, I think only 1989 can compete with this 2026 squad. Right. You'd have to take the player from that year, not their overall career. Keep in mind. So what? It's weirdly phrased, it feels like some of the email got cut off. But what he seems to be saying is what year can you take an all NBA team and keep in mind where those players were at that point in their career? In other words, like, you could take the. One of the arguments against the original Dream Team is that Larry Bird was a shell of his former self. So even though the name is there, it's not really Larry Bird. Right. If it had been Larry Bird in

[B]

his prime, the original dream, they had several guys like that. That.

[A]

But especially. But when you talk about Jordan, Magic and Bird on the same team. Yeah, Jordan and Magic were on the same team and a shell of Bird was on that team. If it was Bird in his prime,

[B]

But Magic wasn't in his prime either.

[A]

But he was still great. He was still great.

[B]

Not in his prime, he wasn't.

[A]

That's true. That's actually true. Right. At any rate, is there another year? I got to think so.

[B]

So.

[A]

So the point guard is sga. The two is. Call him Luca. The three is Giannis or Jaylen Brown.

[B]

Three is Jalen Brown.

[A]

Jalen Brown. Right. The four is Wemby, and the five is.

[B]

No, I'm putting Joe at my four and Wemby at the.

[A]

Okay, whatever. I mean, you know, I would. I mean, really. Wemby is a three, but whatever you want to. Those are the five guys. There must have been a year where LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq. Would Shaq still have been because he played with Wade and won him in Miami.

[B]

No, but still.

[A]

Okay. LeBron, Kobe, and Duncan is already going to be very difficult. Steph.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Steph, Kawhi.

[B]

Kawhi.

[A]

But was he hurt that year where Steph and Kawhi hurt? One of those years where you can't put it all together.

[B]

You got to go back a little bit younger. You got to go. We got to look at. Maybe. Let's look at 09. All right, so it would have been

[A]

LeBron and Kobe for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Howard, Duncan, Dwayne Wade.

[A]

Probably.

[B]

Probably D. Wade do a little more shooting.

[A]

I mean, the shooting was not as important back then, but you need more shooting. They're right. Like, this team would shoot their lights out. That would be the problem. Everyone shoots.

[B]

This team would shoot their lights out.

[A]

This team would shoot. Everyone shoots. The three.

[B]

Everyone, please. This team wouldn't shoot their lights out.

[A]

They would.

[B]

I tell you one thing.

[A]

I mean, I'm not saying that this is adjusted for their era. Like, if all those guys were playing in today's game or coming up in today's game, they would shoot the lights out. But the fact is they weren't.

[B]

There's very few super, super knockdown shooters that happen to be the specialist shooters. Aren't all NBA players.

[A]

Right. Except that's the thing. You're right. You know what? I take it back. You're right. The unfair thing about the comparison is all NBA players are now great shooters because they shoot so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not.

[B]

Or they're good shooters.

[A]

So it's not.

[B]

I wouldn't say Luke is not a

[A]

great shooter, but he's a good shooter.

[B]

Luka's a really good shooter.

[A]

Wemby's a good shooter for a 7 foot 4 dude.

[B]

Of course. Yeah. Joker's a good shooter for a big.

[A]

Joker's a great shooter for. Joker's a great shooter for a big. Joker's a great shooter for a guard.

[B]

Not from three.

[A]

What's Joker averaging from three?

[B]

Yeah, but look how many he takes. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just. I'm just saying to you, these guys are all real guys in a lot of different areas.

[A]

Yeah, right. So don't make it about the shooting because you can't make it about the shooting. Because if you make it about the shooting, the most recent team will always be on top. If you make it about how they dominated their own eras.

[B]

Yeah, you think?

[A]

You're right. I think 09 is better. Yeah.

[B]

09. So you have. I'm putting LeBron at the 1.

[A]

LeBron or Wade?

[B]

Yeah, I want LeBron.

[A]

LeBron at the 1. I agreed to Kobe 2.

[B]

Kobe 3.

[A]

More or less. Yeah.

[B]

Duncan Ford, Dwight Howard, 5.

[A]

The weak. The weakest link there is Dwight Howard.

[B]

No, it's not. Do you see the way he guarded Jokic in the.

[A]

Dwight Howard. I'm not. Dwight Howard's a great player. I know, but the. But I'm saying the weakest link. The three of the guys on that team are. If you say LeBron and Kobe and Duncan, you got three of.

[B]

What do you mean? You can't say.

[A]

No, wait, you got three of the best 10 or 12 players who ever lived. And Dwyane Wade is probably not in the top 10 or 12. He's probably more like 15 to 20.

[B]

Whoop dee doo.

[A]

Okay, so there's a difference. If Wade was two inches taller. Yes, but he is six four, not six six.

[B]

I mean, let's just play like he was six, eight.

[A]

I love Dwayne Wall. I'm saying there is. You go from arguments for the all, like LeBron, Kobe, Duncan. No list of the uppermost tier hall of Famers ever cannot include that.

[B]

This is all I'm saying.

[A]

But they can not include Wade and Dwight Howard.

[B]

Here's what I'm going to say. You could play through Duncan, you could play through Wade. You can play through Kobe, you can play through LeBron. Right. Dwight Howard. When you talk about somebody from a shot blocking perspective, both weak side, shot blocking and just straight up.

[A]

And defense.

[B]

Defense, yeah. Also when you talk about a ball, a high ball, screen and a roller. Yeah, forget about it.

[A]

But not really a post player.

[B]

We don't need them to post.

[A]

Or a shooter.

[B]

What you need them to post for, you can go.

[A]

You could go no, no, you're right. In terms of the way that team

[B]

would work, you can go high, low with those two bigs. Duncan can throw the big to big lob.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You set a ball screen. You put LeBron and Duncan in the picket room.

[A]

Yeah, it's stupid.

[B]

You put LeBron and Kobe in the picking room.

[A]

But I'm not talking about the way just the team would work because, you know, different eras, it works differently. I'm saying that you have three guys in the greatest player ever conversation and two other hall of Famers. This of all these guys, Joker, sga, Wemby, Luka, and Jaylen Brown. Joker is the only one who's going to be in that uppermost tier. And Wemby, if he stays healthy, but he has to do a lot more still. But this version of Wemby is going to be in that conversation. You know what? Rob Meadows, sga, Luka and Jaylen Brown are not in. They're in the Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard conversation, not the Kobe, LeBron, Duncan conversation. That's a different tier.

[B]

Well, that's not for me to say, but I will say this, Rob Melody, this was actually pretty fun.

[A]

Yeah, it was. It's a good one.

[B]

This is a good one.

[A]

That's why I want to do this.

[B]

Where's Rob from?

[A]

I don't know. You got a shout out, though he might be. Well, shout me out. You got it. All right. What you got going? Are you. So let me ask you this. Are you going to wear this the rest of the day or do you change back into your.

[B]

Into your, like, sweater and jeans?

[A]

Yeah. Because in your line of work, I imagine you don't always want to come in too sharp. It creates envy or, you know, envy from who? You don't always want to. From whoever you're dealing with. You want to present. Imagine. Tell me if I'm wrong. You want to present a certain way, but maybe not go over the top till it hurts you. Or is that not true?

[B]

I don't know where you could be hurt. At work, wearing clothes.

[A]

I know people in the business world who are conscious when they go out with clients. For example, they don't want to outshine them with the watch too much or something because it can create a sense of envy.

[B]

You realize most of my clients made a quarter billion dollars by the time they were 22. Like, if. If I'm outshining them, then something's going. Gone wrong. I'm not worried about that. No.

[A]

And nevertheless, are you wearing this the rest of the day?

[B]

I don't know. Should I? I mean, I like it. It's light. This is a very light jacket.

[A]

A little hot out though.

[B]

You be a little hot.

[A]

It's be like 80 something. Oh, no. Maybe it's cooling off a little today, right?

[B]

Today it was supposed, it was, it was supposed to rain today, but it's not raining. But it is going to cool off. But you know, when I go to work, it's more so about comfort because I'm moving pretty fast. I'm going all, I'm, you know, you got lunch, meetings, this and that. Games is different. I normally change for games.

[A]

How many outfit changes do you go through in a day?

[B]

In a day. Depending on the day, maybe three.

[A]

Three? Yeah.

[B]

It just depends on the day. But I like to. I'm all about comfort in certain moments. It's about the comfort.

[A]

Yeah. You know, I'll do three only if one is a workout. Like I got, like I'm working out. That would be if that counts as one. Then daytime clothes, nighttime clothes.

[B]

But if I'm going, just going to the office.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sweater and jeans. Sweater and jeans. Or sometimes you put sweater and pants on. It's pretty, it's pretty, pretty chill for the most part.

[A]

Yeah. Jeans. I don't love jeans anymore. It's pretty corporate since COVID jeans are not comfortable. They're not ever comfortable.

[B]

Actually.

[A]

Suits, suit pants are more comfortable than jeans.

[B]

Pants, trousers.

[A]

What is less comfortable? What kind of pant is less comfortable than jeans? I'm in jeans now.

[B]

They're too tighter. There's no kind of pant less comfortable.

[A]

Right. So why did, when did it become a thing that jeans are comfortable?

[B]

But here's the thing, I will say this. It's the other way around at work for me, all right? Because we work in sports, sometimes it could be very laxed. But your office is in a very corporate, high level corporate setting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So we try to have the conversation

[A]

of, look, man, like, don't come in your gym clothes. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Don't come here and don't come here too laxed. Yeah, but I, but I, but just appearance alone. I always think no matter where you work. And my dad used to always talk to me about this. And one time, my friend, you met Smalls, right? Which you met him.

[A]

I met a lot of your people.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But I don't. But Smalls put a name to a face.

[B]

I'm sure one time he came to my dad. He came, he was with me, we was hanging out. And my dad, we went to my Dad's store. And I don't know this day, he must have had on. My dad thought he maybe had on nothing. Pretty much. Right. So maybe we lost in gambling or something. He was kind of down, whatever the case may be. So he was. My dad and him was talking and my dad's questioning like, man, what, what do you have on? And he's basically like, oh, making all these excuses. And my dad explained to him the importance of appearance. He said, listen, I don't care nothing about any of that. I don't care if you don't have a dollar in your pocket. Look the part. Don't ever come back around here looking

[A]

like that, looking sloppy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, because like you took your

[A]

clothes out of your pocket.

[B]

Yeah. Because it also uplifts your energy, somebody, you know, conversation.

[A]

You take pride in your appearance.

[B]

Yes. So I always did that. Young kids, kids go to school, they got. I don't understand it. You got a mismatch. This, you got.

[A]

Well, it's also sometimes my dad's a shrink and would tell you the same thing, that sometimes, first of all, it can be a reflection of what's going on inside.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You don't feel good about things, whatever, you're disorganized. But also sometimes you can, you can work from the outside in. Even like, you can start by doing things like caring about your appearance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that can create a re. Instead of working from the inside out.

[B]

Kids today don't care as much, especially going to school. Like, I love to get dressed. Going to school. Yeah, I love to get. You know, I was getting manicures at 12 years old, you know, that was a thing. Going to get so grooming over the

[A]

top with the manicures.

[B]

I'm just saying grooming was a big thing. It's still a big thing. But to kids today, it's different. And I guess when you went to college, it got even worse because you're rushing to get to class. You just throw in anything. You go to class in your pajamas. I never would do that. When I was. Spent my half a day in college, I had a whole clock. I wanted to get dressed. So I guess it's just in you, who you are. But yeah, at work I've done both.

[A]

I've done both. Left the house a mess and left the house on point. And when you leave the house a mess, it's not usually a good reflection.

[B]

I will say when I.

[A]

What's going on?

[B]

When I moved to la, yeah, I

[A]

got a little down, a little less.

[B]

I got a little Less.

[A]

It's not New York, I'll tell you that. Yeah.

[B]

In New York, I want to be high power. Layered everything. The fall in New York, leather, suede. You want to be high power. In la, I found myself getting a little laxed and I didn't like it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, you know, people just walk around and when it's sunshine. I didn't. I didn't like that at all. I didn't like that at all. So I had to put my vines back on. You know, vines is an old school word for. For clothes. You know that, Max? I did. Okay. Yeah. Do you remember on the. On the movie Malcolm X and when they first saw red and he was like, man, look at those vines. Like, what the hell do you got on?

[A]

But yeah, my daughter is reading. Is reading Malcolm X right now. I think. I think the book. I think it's a school book. And then she's gonna watch the movie. And that was a great ad. You think about that book. You think, how do you adapt that for the screen?

[B]

That was a great.

[A]

Almost impossible. Great job.

[B]

We should talk about those type of movies on Wednesday.

[A]

We do a little movies on.

[B]

Let's do a little movies on Wednesday. Yeah. Andy Garcia style. Yeah.

[A]

Playing golf with Andy Garcia, big shot.

[B]

Maybe I'll call. You know what? Let's see if you. Come on. Yeah. Probably won't be this soon, but let's see.

[A]

We're Pesci, too.

[B]

No, Pesci is. No, I mean, now you're going overboard. Yeah, why not?

[A]

I don't know. It depends who the bigger sports fan is, really.

[B]

Andy. He goes to every game.

[A]

All right, so the answer is Andy. Yeah.

[B]

All right.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Good show.

[A]

See, Dad? I did good. I'm going to be on a show with Andy Garcia. If we can get him.

[B]

If we can get him. Yeah. No, you should call him.

[A]

I don't have Andy Garcia's number.

[B]

Oh, sorry.

[A]

Flex, game over With Max Kelly and Rich Paul.

[B]

Game [e-mail]. max, I swear, that was not a flex, okay?

[A]

You can flex.

[B]

No, because people in the comments gonna say I was flexed on you, and that's not true.

[A]

That's okay. You are alive.

[B]

Flexing on me in the. In the. In the. In the. Irving. That's not even magic. That's the Irving joke.

[A]

Don't say you should absolutely flex.

[B]

I would never flex on you.

[A]

You have a lot of people's numbers in your phone for sure.

[B]

What does that mean? Nothing. I have a lot of people numbers that I shouldn't.

[A]

You can't do the overly humble thing either. I don't know the kid who goes to Harvard. You're like, where'd you go to college? I went to a place in Cambridge. You like? Just say it. It's all right. You can flex. You got a lot of numbers in your phone.

[B]

Too many. How many numbers you have in your phone?

[A]

The number of numbers? I don't know.

[B]

I have like 6,000.

[A]

That's more than I have. I can tell you that right now.

[B]

Six thousand? Yeah. But I had the same number for 20 something years. All right, 25. Probably six years.

[A]

Probably me too.

[B]

Really? Yeah.

[A]

My cell phone number hasn't changed. Maybe ever.

[B]

Yeah, I have too many numbers.

[A]

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[C]

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[B]

Experian.