← Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
The NBA Trade Deadline Heats Up, and a Star Will Be Born at the Super Bowl
00:56:24
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- [00:01]
A
Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today.
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B
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C
1-800-Contact contacts.
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A
Experian. Max, no ranting today? Well, I don't know, but it'd be in and out.
- [01:09]
C
Listen, I know it's that. What is this like for you? What has this time of year, like, the last week, been like for you?
- [01:16]
A
You're saying just because of the trade deadline? Yeah. Look, it's chaotic in a way in which, you know, there's very few guys safe in the league. I mean, next to none anymore. There used to be a handful of guys that could probably go to sleep at night knowing that they weren't gonna get traded. Now that's not the case.
- [01:38]
C
And Wemby, Jokic, Steph.
- [01:41]
A
A handful. Yeah. I mean, but now it's just not the case for so many different reasons. Right. There's so much parity in the league. So teams feel like, hey, we have a chance if we make one small or maybe a big move. And then there are situations where, you know, because of the complications of the cba, teams have to shed salary and.
- [02:04]
C
I mean, what is it like to be you in the last week? What's your life like?
- [02:08]
A
For me, just really staying alert, you know, you're next to the phone, naturally, as always. But even more so, I think you're talking to clients. Even more so. Just kind of wondering what's going on. They're seeing guys come in out of the lineup. They're seeing, hearing, overhearing conversations around this time. Everyone's talking, right? You have so many different Sources. You have so many different speculations. Most of it's not true, but some of it is true. And there's a lot of. What I would say if you were starting a fire, there's a lot of coals being lit without a flame, actually.
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C
I mean, like. But rich. Like, you. Your life. You wake up in the. Is it different than. Than a week where this isn't happening? Like, next week?
- [02:58]
A
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
- [02:59]
C
No, you gotta get up earlier. You got to take more phone calls. You can't go golfing. You're running around so much. You. You ripped a hole in your. In your. In your jeans.
- [03:08]
A
No, no, I. Look, you know, I came in on a horse today, bro. Yeah, I see that. You know, I see. But no, I think. Yes, quite naturally. It's a lot different. My day is different. Just in general. It's not like I'm only watching a basketball game. My day is. The tough part for me is the other parts of my day don't stop because of the trade deadline.
- [03:31]
C
Right. I noticed that this week you are busier, you're distracted, you're less. Like, you have to be taking calls. You're always taking calls, but more. All that kind of stuff.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah. Because you're on the. Like, you're on the pulse so much more. And this is just a lot of movement. And so what's. Naturally. My calendar is set. I have my meetings. You know, you have your internal meetings. You have your team meetings. You may have your external meetings, and you also have your basketball client meetings. Is, well. Or what I would say your basketball client prioritizing, per se. And that's just. What's basketball. And that's just. And that's just really, like, you know, you may check in. A guy may be coming back from an injury. A guy may have just gotten injured. You know, it's different situations, all this.
- [04:27]
C
Hey, cut. Cut the cameras. And does all this take a toll with you and Adele? Don't worry, we're not rolling.
- [04:33]
A
You know, I don't speak about my personal life. Man on no camera. But no, you know, I never panic about anything. I try, but it's a tough time. You know, It's a tough time, and I think it's okay for it to be a tough time. You know, like I always say, we work a very, like, what have you done for me lately? Type of job.
- [04:52]
C
Right. You mean the agent does to the clients?
- [04:55]
A
Absolutely. And in this case, you know, guys that are wanting to move don't want to be moved. You know, there's very Little control in all of that. There can be some support and some. What I would say some not teaming up, but more so. Some partnering within that. But it's a hectic, hectic time.
- [05:24]
C
All right, listen, we gotta. And yes, we are. We are aware of the. I don't know if you heard about it, but there's a lot of NBA news that broke. Some big trades involving some clients represented by very powerful agency. You ready to do this?
- [05:38]
A
I'm ready, yeah. We gotta pay some bills first.
- [05:41]
C
Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul starts right now. Rich, let's start off with Harden traded to the Cavs for Darius Garland and a second round pick. I had to do a double take when I saw that trade.
- [06:05]
A
Why hold?
- [06:06]
C
Because James Harden is very acquirable throughout his career. He's been traded a thousand times. If you really want James Harden, you can go get him. Obviously he's 36 years old. He's gonna want a Max super deal, duper contract, whatever it is. At 36, Darius Garland to me is a franchise cornerstone. Pick and roll who can really shoot and defend. Point guard, who's a decade younger, and the team getting that guy. Why? Cause he's a 60 game a year player instead of an 80 game a year player. The team getting that guy also gets a second round pick. That's a heist in broad daylight. Were you surprised by this trade?
- [06:52]
A
Was. Who's.
- [06:53]
C
Were you surprised? Yes.
- [06:55]
A
No, I wasn't surprised.
- [06:56]
C
Well, why would that be, Rich? Why wouldn't you be surprised?
- [06:58]
A
Well, I wasn't surprised, Max, because this was something that was discussed a month ago. And just. Let me just take you back for a second. First of all, anytime you're doing these type of things.
- [07:12]
C
Well, first I need to know, what are your sources?
- [07:15]
A
What are my sources?
- [07:16]
C
Yes, what are your sources?
- [07:17]
A
I'm the source. I'm the source, Max.
- [07:19]
C
Just.
- [07:19]
A
I'm the source for this one. This is why I'm explaining it to you, just to take you back. First of all, these things are always tough when you draft a kid like Darius Garland. Gotta remember the Cavs took Darius fifth in the draft. He'd only played four games in college. Four games. And I remember them flying their whole staff out to Cleveland. They couldn't watch him work out because he couldn't work out. And they sat there with their whole staff. And this was their guy, if they can get him in the draft. So I worked very close with Kobe and his staff. Obviously I had a relationship there with Dan and the Gilbert family and Darius. They Took him five. The team wasn't where it's at now, obviously, and. And he came and he brought a cool vibe and some excitement back to the organization. And obviously, they went on and had some pretty good years last year they thought was going to be the year. Right. Was going to be the year to get there. And obviously injuries happen and they come up short. But I will say this was not a surprise to me, because about a month and a week ago, I ran into Mike, who represents James and is the brother of a superstar colleague of mine, Leslie Silverman. And he said, hey, you know, Rich, can I run something by you? I said, sure. What's up, Mike? He said, you know, we may be in a situation where we have to switch, you know, directions. And I said, really? And he said, there's a few teams and one of the teams we're eyeing, the only way this could work is probably has to include somebody and one of them will be your guy. And I said, oh. He said, but, you know, is that something that you. You can see? And I was like, I cannot take it to them. But I can tell you, if you take it to them and they are interested, I would definitely support that.
- [09:23]
C
To be clear, Klutch represents Darius Garland.
- [09:26]
A
Yes.
- [09:26]
C
Right?
- [09:27]
A
Yes.
- [09:27]
C
So when you say our guy in the hardened Garland trade, you're talking about.
- [09:30]
A
Yeah, I'm talking about Darius. Yes. So I said I would support that. That's a month and a half ago. So it just goes to show you how long these things take. So by the time somebody's putting out a simmering or what they're hearing, et cetera, this has already been a conversation amongst him and I, in terms of he represents Hardin, I represent Darius, and then. And then from there, you know, as you get. All these things happen as you get closer to a deadline and a trade can be done in terms of agreeing to something, could be done as quick as you want it to be done. Right? And so for me, as it started to heat up and, okay, do we really want to do this? Obviously, you have to check with Darius and see, but prior to this year, this upcoming season, I sat Darius down and I explained to him. I was like, this is going to be your last year on the Cavs, very matter of factly, because I do things very black and white. I said, that's just the way it's going to be for a number of reasons that take too long to get into, but that's just my foresight. And I also had the conversation with Kobe, with Colby Altman, who Runs the Cavs. And I said, Kobe, listen, this is what it's going to be. I understand it. The hopes is they go out and they play a great year and they try to contend and then anything short of a championship run, you know, there has to be a change because there's.
- [11:02]
C
Redundancy on the rock, by the way. And that redundancy was interesting because they had two playmakers and two bigs. So you had 48 minutes of minimum one playmaker and one defensive big on the floor. So your foundation was good. On the other hand, it's also a luxury. The way the NBA works, it's hard to have redundancies at positions when you have other stuff you need to address.
- [11:25]
A
Yeah, and this was a very tough decision for them given the fact of what he meant to the city. And obviously they drafted him so young. He came in the league as a baby and those things take time. Right. And then once you start to get closer to like the one, you know, it's hard, it's easier to run 99 yards. That one yard to get in the end zone is a tough yard to make. And so once you get to that point, you start to get the toughness of it. Like what do you put in there? Do you do this, do you do that? And so on and so forth. The, the great thing is it's good for both. And I've known James since he was.
- [12:05]
C
It's good for both players.
- [12:06]
A
Both players? Yes.
- [12:07]
C
I don't know if it's good for both franchises. It's good for both players. If I was Cleveland, I would, to me that is.
- [12:14]
A
Well, you know, look, when you in that decision, when you're in that position, you're trying to make the best right now decision because you never know how large of a window you have.
- [12:25]
C
And Darius is having an off year cause of the injuries and stuff.
- [12:28]
A
Yeah, he's been in and out of lineup, which is fair. You get a bigger guard, you get the top 75 player. But on the other hand you're getting a 26 year old two time All Star, a true point guard, 39%, 40%.
- [12:43]
C
The Clippers just took a 36 year old player who doesn't play defense and they and has a contract coming up where he's going to get a huge amount of money. And they not only turned him into a franchise cornerstone if Garland stays healthy, but he hasn't had like the kind of chronic injury, I'm like, oh, he's gonna get worse and worse. No, he has a bunch of different injuries. Although the toes, I don't know. I don't think toes are gonna derail his career, especially if he has surgery. They got a franchise cornerstone. When you think about a modern point guard in the NBA, gotta run the pick and roll, gotta be able to shoot it. And by the way, if he can play defense, oh my God, that's Darius Garland. That's the dude. And he doesn't dribble it to death. You know, like. Like that's the guy you want. And they traded a 36 year old who they're gonna have to like and they got draft compensation.
- [13:36]
A
Look, our league.
- [13:37]
C
Unbelievable.
- [13:38]
A
Our league has always been, you know, a copycat league in a lot of ways. You're starting to see teams now go with size one through five, right. They want guys six' four, six' five. It's very hard to win with two.
- [13:56]
C
What's Garland?
- [13:57]
A
Six, three, six, two and a half.
- [13:59]
C
Six, two, six, three.
- [14:00]
A
All right, all right. If he put these boots on, he'd be 6 3, right?
- [14:02]
C
Right.
- [14:03]
A
Yeah, but. But it's very hard to win with two guys under six, three in the back court. You understand that, Cleveland? Yes, you understand that. And so you try it and you know, if it doesn't work, you move on. The thing about this is. None of this has to be negative, though. The thing about trades, and I think guys have to understand trades come with our business. And when you're traded, one player is wanted one place, the other players wanted the other place. And in our positioning, you know, from James representation to myself, my guy is already under contract for another three years at a very. At a. At a max number. He signed a max deal.
- [14:46]
C
Which looks better and better as the years go on. Yeah. Because if you play well.
- [14:49]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [14:50]
C
Because the cap goes up and you.
- [14:51]
A
And you 26 years old. But for his guy, he wanted to get his guy in position to be paid again, especially if you have no future here. So there's good jobs done around the board.
- [15:04]
C
I think if you talk about winners and losers in the deal, James Harden, winner, Darius Garland, winner. He's going to play with Kawhi Leonard and those two are going to be a problem.
- [15:14]
A
And I think T Lew is a big X factor in that. If you look at how.
- [15:18]
C
Cause he wanted Garland.
- [15:19]
A
Of course he wanted Garland. Yeah. I mean, if you look at how he was able to play Kyrie when Kyrie was in Cleveland, the different sets that he ran, the different. It's just being able to take a guy that seems to be off the ball, but he's Catching it with a live dribble to go right into his side. Pick and roll. If you look at Darius stats, I think he's second in the league in terms of time. When you're talking about making a decision in the pick and roll.
- [15:45]
C
Yeah, he doesn't.
- [15:46]
A
That's gonna help the biggest everything.
- [15:48]
C
The offense flows with him. He runs the pick and roll the way you want it to be run. He can really shoot. And he's a problem on defense. Even though he's not large, he's pesky.
- [15:58]
A
Yeah, he fights. And again, look, there's very few guys not named Tony Allen that can just guard a player one on one in the NBA. Just period.
- [16:10]
C
Even talking to guys like Tony Allen, the whole trick is how do you find the first two things, the pick and roll and the real shot with defense. I'm not saying.
- [16:19]
A
Well, when you're a smaller guy, you have to be. It's one thing to be small, and it's another thing to be small and feisty and try to fight through and you're not gonna stop.
- [16:30]
C
And if you're on a team with Kawhi. Yeah.
- [16:32]
A
You're not necessarily stopping a guy that much bigger than you, but a coach just want to see your effort. So this was no surprise to me, Max. And again, I'm pretty black and white with these things and I'm pretty across the board client to GM or president of a team. And look, I've had a long lasting relationship with the Cavs, and that'll continue. And so you want to see them do well. And then also in Darius's case, you get a fresh start. And this was the only way for the Clippers to get younger. You got to remember, they didn't have any draft capital. So where are you going to find a point guard of this magnitude? You're gonna. So it's a win win, Rich.
- [17:14]
C
Rich.
- [17:14]
A
It's a win win.
- [17:15]
C
You were on the other. You had a client who was traded out of town in a surprise, like, last second deal, right?
- [17:21]
A
That was a surprise. This was not a surprise.
- [17:22]
C
AD for Luca. Let me just say, AD for Luca was resoundingly criticized from the Mavericks point of view in the press. Oh, my God, that's a terrible deal. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I understand why. Because AD is older and injury prone and Luka's the primary ball handler.
- [17:38]
A
Style of play.
- [17:39]
C
I get it. And Luka's the primary ball handler and he's box office and all this kind of stuff. I get it. But in terms of actually looking at A team's success with these players. Luka doesn't play defense, et cetera, et cetera. Let's see what the Lakers do. Yes, AD is hurt now, he frequently is. But the Mavericks are in a position next year if they, if they keep the course as it is now with, with a comebacking ad, Kyrie and Cooper flag, they could be a problem. Like let's wait to see how this all pans out before we evaluate Luca for ad. But I'm saying that's on the one hand I see this from a long term basketball perspective as on that level. The way everyone was outraged with how lopsided that trade was. I see this trade that way. The Cavs just. Okay, the Cavs may think that they have to strike while the iron's hot. Let's see if we can win right now. If it works, they're right and I'm wrong. If it doesn't work, if they don't win the whole thing right now and next year they have a 37 year old player making the super Duper Max or whatever, the most they can pay him is. And the cat and the, and the clippers have a 27 year old pick and roll point guard to match with Kawhi Leonard. Like yeah, but for the next three, four years.
- [18:56]
A
But Max, you're right about a few things. The other thing to add to that, when you talk about all the other things on the AD front, AD's a top player, a champion and affects the game on both sides.
- [19:10]
C
When he's on the floor, that's the issue.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah, that's fine. But he can give you 30 and 15, 18, whatever the case, may be four blocks, just monster in that regard. But you're right in terms of the risk. And that's why I said earlier there's a short term decision versus a long term decision. And the risk you take is, hey, we're going for the now. This is for the now, it's not for the later.
- [19:38]
C
The only reason you can even pull that trade off is and this is where what it really comes down to for me and you know, Jaren Jackson Jr. Got traded too and a lot of people are down on him because he makes a lot of money and there are a few things he doesn't do or maybe he's regressing a little bit. You have to ask, but I like him a lot. You have to ask yourself in a situation like this if you're a GM, like I put myself in the GM's position and I'm looking at Darius Garland, I want to acquire him. I have to ask myself, do I believe that his injuries and his decline this year is a permanent condition where he will stay in decline or become a lesser player, or do I believe that these are kind of freaky injuries, they're not all related. And even if he's only cause he gets a lot, some guys are just more injury prone cause they move very quickly.
- [20:25]
A
Well, those are knick knack things.
- [20:27]
C
But I'm saying he's basically averaging like 60 games a year. Although a full season nowadays is like 72 games a year. Right. So he's about a dozen games off of a guy who plays a full season, give or take. Do I believe that his prime is already over because of all this or do I believe that no, no, he's just coming off a specific injury and he'll be back. If you really look at Garland, I think the conclusion you come to is this is not a kind of catastrophic chronic situation where he's in permanent decline. This is a situation where he's coming off a specific injury where he didn't have a good year, but otherwise we can pencil him in for like 60 plus games a year at an extremely high level. That is an excellent acquisition. It wouldn't be. If you look at Garland and you go, what he was this year is now who he is. He's a declining player. He's 26 and rich. He's fast. When you look at a deal, the team getting the athlete is the Clippers. They're not only getting a dude 10 years younger, they're getting a more athletic player who's 10 years younger.
- [21:29]
A
I think you'll see a different pace with the Clippers. I think you'll see a few different sets that'll be ran and look again. I look at it and understand it clearly from both sides. And in talking with James last night and understanding that, like I said, I've known James for so long, happy for.
- [21:49]
C
Him that he's gonna get paid again.
- [21:50]
A
Happy for him he's gonna get paid again. Yes, absolutely. And he did not ask for a trade. That's not what happened. You know, this is something that again, Mike and I talked about a month ago, a month and a half, and I said, if you take it to them, I'm not gonna take it to them. If you take it and they like it, I love it.
- [22:08]
C
By the way, James is also like, I don't want to. James is a winning player. You can have James Harden. You're going to be a winning team. Winning a championship is different than being on a winning team. I don't think his style of play is conducive to winning championships, but, but.
- [22:25]
A
I would be happy to see him win one. Of course I like James.
- [22:27]
C
Yeah, of course. And I guess they have a shot at me. Sort of, kind of. Maybe not really. I think if you're his teammate winning a championship this year, if you're in.
- [22:37]
A
The east, you feel like you have a, it's a lot more parity there. It's always been a, it's always been a situation in which matchups matter when you get in the playoffs and so it just a matter of what matchups you get. Health matters, right? And so James is durable and James a top 75 player and former MVP.
- [22:58]
C
And he's a one man offense.
- [23:00]
A
You, you know, you can't, you can't front on that. So I like it, I like it for both.
- [23:05]
C
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- [24:51]
A
No, the Cavs want to win. Cavs want to win.
- [24:53]
C
Because if I wanted to win a championship, I would keep the point guard. I thought could operate a championship level offense and then pair him with a bigger backcourt mate. Right. So who could defend the perimeter and all these kind of things. That's not what they did. They went for the high flying, high scoring guy and paired him with a bigger player.
- [25:19]
A
I can tell you the Cavs want to win. That fan base got spoiled. They went to the finals four years in a row. I was there for all four and five times in 12 years, if you count 07. Being exited out of the second round is not something that, that they want to get comfortable with.
- [25:44]
C
What's important change for Donovan Mitchell?
- [25:51]
A
That's a good question. That remains to be seen. I think you have to see it on the floor. I think you have to see it on the floor.
- [25:56]
C
What would you predict? You're a basketball brain. What would you predict?
- [26:00]
A
Well, it depends on the offense that's ran. I mean you have another guy that can create, but you had that too, but just bigger size.
- [26:11]
C
Harden's really a point guard. I think about Rich, the Brooklyn experiment and when KD went down Harden and they gave Harden the ball and Kyrie played more off ball. They had a lot of success against good teams on the west coast. Because Harden is a smart point guard.
- [26:31]
A
I think he's really great from a catch and shoot perspective. I think on the second side he can get into. His ability to play the pick and roll at a high level is obviously we know that his shot making ability is there. He has two lob threats now. He loves to throw the lob. We've seen the success that was there with Capella in Houston. There's a lot there to unpack. It may optically look as if it's like, oh, how you gonna figure this out? But they're basketball players and they're the highest level basketball players you can get in the world. So I think that part they can figure out.
- [27:16]
C
Would you say that it goes without saying that he's getting a new deal in Cleveland or else they wouldn't have made the move for him.
- [27:22]
A
Yeah, I mean in these situations, when you understand how a guy's contract is currently constructed, the idea would be that you're making a move and that's understood. But that's not my business. But I know the business. That's not particularly my business. But if you understand the business, what's Understood. Don't really have to be explained in that regard.
- [27:46]
C
I know Bill Simmons was very excited about not about getting to watch a kind of more fan friendly product in la. I mean, I think about the way it's going to look with Garland and Kawhi in la, that's a dangerous team. I think it's a great opportunity to watch.
- [28:01]
A
I think they're going to be fun to watch. I think you can surround them with size, right? You have Derrick Jones Jr. They have Zubak, they have John Collins. You know, you got Kawhi, who is Kawhi. And I see Adam just select him to the all Star team. Rightfully so.
- [28:18]
C
Two guys though, like there are some teams that are obviously rolling a dice and going, man, these dudes are always hurt. But if they could stay healthy, right? Like that's Kawhi and theirs, that's our.
- [28:29]
A
League in general, right?
- [28:30]
C
A lot of guys, most guys like that.
- [28:32]
A
There's been more injuries than anything of late in our league.
- [28:36]
C
You trade for Giannis, you're thinking, what about injury? You trade for ad, you're waiting.
- [28:40]
A
That's just with anything. And so I think, you know, anytime you make big moves, the cohesiveness of those moves, it takes a little time. But you can figure out now, there's not oftentimes though mid season trades lead to championships. We talked about that, but we'll see, you know.
- [29:01]
C
So meantime, the Celtics get Vucevich for Anthony Simons and second round pick. I don't, I mean they get shooting, they get a big guy, they needed it. I don't. Is he better than Keita? Is he better than Equaeda? Is he, is he, does he start on the Celtics?
- [29:18]
A
When I look at the Celtics team, I told you this before the other day, when I look at the Celtics team, that centerpiece matters from an IQ perspective more than anything. And so when you have a guy with a high IQ that can give you different looks, that can step out, shoot the three that can post, you know, when you talk about a guy like that setting screens, that wide body setting screens and then being able to have a great touch around the basket. We saw when they added a big like that before, they wanted to change, but he has.
- [29:57]
C
But the difference is Porzingis has a defensive effect on the game. Even when he's not playing great defense because he's so long, it changes the other team's offense.
- [30:06]
A
The lymph was a problem. Yeah, but I, but again, you're talking about the Celtics, man. The Celtics are, they're already There. And I mean, you see how they're playing. Despite being down one of their most important.
- [30:20]
C
They're one of the best teams in the east without one of the best players in the game who's on their team and in his.
- [30:25]
A
That's an addition, in my opinion. Yeah, that's an addition. They got better.
- [30:29]
C
You know, I'm looking at the Bulls and the Bulls. This is funny. Like we weren't even going to talk about Jaden Ivey today. Right. But I'm talking about him now. Jaden Ivey was a big deal out of the draft and already it's like he's not even mentioned that he. The Bulls are doing something now where there it's like, we'll get Simons, we'll get Jaden Ivey, we'll try and save a little money. We'll get a second round pick, whatever it is. They're making these little moves on the margin in the bargain bin and finding I think high upside young players. It's smart, but the Bulls aren't a good team. They're not going to be a good team for a while. And the way the NBA has structured now with the aprons and the salary cap, it really punishes stupid teams. And the problem is when your big markets operate stupidly for years, like the Knicks did for years. Not anymore, but for years they were run idiotically. And Bulls are not run well. It really hurts the league. Like TV ratings are down. And partly that's because, for example, if Chicago had a powerhouse right now, that would help TV ratings.
- [31:36]
A
Yeah. In that market it always does.
- [31:38]
C
It does. And it's not good for your league when major markets are stuck right. Where they can't kind of spend their way out of it a little bit, at least to get relevant. And the moves that the Bulls are making now, I think are. Are smart moves, but they're on the margins. Right. They're not like centerpiece moves because they're hamstrung.
- [31:59]
A
Yeah. Well, you can't always make a home run play. I think the on the margin moves matter just as much as anything, especially when you're trying to establish a specific style of play and a specific mentality as a ball club, I think that matters. And if you pay close attention, start looking at size, start looking at wingspan, start looking at, you know, toughness and things like that. I think teams are starting to understand that, you know, we have to do this with depth and we have to do this with, with, with mindset.
- [32:35]
C
Celtics lose a little depth without Simons, who's Having a very good year.
- [32:41]
A
Yeah, that could be true. But they have it, though. They have it. Yeah, yeah, they have it because they.
- [32:48]
C
Got another guy coming back who's better than Simon. They have it, right? Grizzlies traded. We talked about Jaren Jackson Jr. On this show, and I don't remember if I said it or you said it, but you got in trouble for it. When I brought up, when we were talking Austin Reaves and Jaren Jackson Jr. Memphis gets three first round picks, bunch of players. What did the Triple J trade to the Jazz tell you about the future of both teams, if anything?
- [33:24]
A
I like what the Jazz are doing. I like what the Jazz are doing. And Austin and Danny, I like what they're doing. Will has that team playing the right way. They have some really good young talent. And, you know, you put Ryan and Austin and Danny in a room together, those guys want to win. So whatever moves they're making, it's going in the direction of we want to win and we want to play the game the right way and we want to be successful while doing it. That's what it says to me.
- [34:00]
C
I think Jaren Jackson Jr. Is being underrated right now for a couple reasons. One, he makes a lot of money. Hey, Rich, just between you and me, what are they texting? Cut. Cameras, cut. What's going on? He makes a lot of money and he gets in foul trouble. You and I were texting about this last night. And he gets in foul trouble. And he doesn't like, he doesn't board the way people want him to. There's a tendency to focus on what someone doesn't do. Right. There might be a third base prospect in baseball. He does a lot of things well, but I don't know, he doesn't charge the bunt well or something. People harp on that, or they used to. To me. Yeah, he makes a lot of money. And there's certain things you'd like more of. But when you can find a guy who can do things that are. That are hard to find in the same package, like find a guy who can defend the rim and also defend out in space on a high level, right? That's hard to find to begin with. And that guy very rarely shoots it really well, right. Or well enough to. He's like, I don't know, I have 35% type guy from three. Like, that's shooting it well enough for a guy who can legit defend the rim and defend out in space. To me, that's a winning player. I think people with Jaren Jackson Jr. Are harping on what he can't do too much and what he makes a little too much. And maybe also there's the sense that he is in decline. And maybe unlike Darius Garland, the decline is like a permanent state of things. Like, it's not going to bounce back. I like. I think Jared Jackson Jr. Is the kind of guy I'd want on my team.
- [35:44]
A
Do you. Do you trust Tom Izzo, basketball prowess?
- [35:50]
C
Yeah.
- [35:52]
A
What about Danny Ainge?
- [35:53]
C
Yes.
- [35:54]
A
What about Austin Ainge?
- [35:55]
C
Sure. In other words, when a smart front office makes a move. Look, there was a time with Danny Ainge where if I was a GM when he was with the Celtics, I was a GM and he called, I wouldn't pick up the phone. I'd be like, nah, man, I'm not getting ready.
- [36:09]
A
Hey, listen, man, I've been around this game a long time, and there's certain people that make basketball decisions that aligns. And so it's clear to me. It's very clear.
- [36:26]
C
Let me ask you something. So Vucevich, for example, he's on the Celtics. It looks like maybe that's who they really want, or maybe they could flip him. Like, we're not done. The trade deadline is not here yet. Do you think that we are going to get any other big splash moves between now and the deadline? It's always as we're talking, it's Wednesday morning.
- [36:49]
A
I mean, there's. I mean, Wednesday morning to Thursday at X time, that's like a year, right? Literally.
- [37:00]
C
That's why I'm asking.
- [37:04]
A
I would say, yeah, I think there'll be more movement. How big of a splash? You never know. I know teams are fighting and trying to get a lot of things in position to make that splash, but, man, it's so much time. Like I told you, I mean, I can tell you right now, the Darius deal, once I got on the phone with both Kobe and Lawrence, it probably took seven minutes to really, okay, we're here. This is.
- [37:41]
C
Well, that's because they worked out all the stuff before that call. Right? Like, they. You have to figure out a lot of those details. Yeah.
- [37:47]
A
It wasn't a ton of figuring out the phone. Yeah, it wasn't a ton of figuring out, but it was. It was, you know, there were still some loose ends to tie up.
- [37:55]
C
Barry's excited about it.
- [37:57]
A
He is? Yeah. And a fun fact. His dad played for the Clippers in 90 and 91. Winston, that's my guy, so. Yeah, he is. I think it's going to be good for him.
- [38:06]
C
Yeah, really good. For the Clippers especially, like, I like it when the Clippers make moves because it puts pressure on the Lakers, you know, like you don't want. Oh my God, look, the fact I was in New. Everyone thinks that the town could never be flipped and permanently. You're probably right. However, I lived in New York. I was 13 years old. 1986, the Mets took over that town. And for several years it was a Mets town. Several years. They drew more fans. People cared about them more. People were rocking the Mets hats over the Yankees hats. Middle of the 80s, New York City Yankees were the number two team in town. Now I'm not saying it happens like that overnight, but I like when the Clippers make moves because I think the Lakers greatest fear is you. That the Clippers even temporarily flip things a little bit.
- [38:52]
A
But the Clippers have been really good consistently for the last, what, 14 years.
- [39:03]
C
But not really good.
- [39:04]
A
Like I'm saying, I'm saying they've, they've been, they've been a good ball club. Yeah, yeah.
- [39:10]
C
But I don't, I don't mean, hey, you're making the playoffs and stuff. I mean if the Clippers win a championship, if they go into a season looking good, like let's say this year had panned out differently. On paper they looked really good. And it all clicked and the Clippers were tearing up the league. That's a nightmare for the Lakers. That's a really. It's a nightmare for them. So if they see Garland with Kawhi and that starts to work out, Lakers are start. Or they have to start to press to figure out, okay, what do we do here to get more competitive?
- [39:36]
A
Are you saying that's less about the individual teams? It is more about being a big city, a big market that is able to have two teams that are going to be internal fighting, internal competition.
- [39:50]
C
Because the in every sport you have the signature team of the sport. In baseball, the number one brand in the world is the Yankees. In football, like it or not, it's the Cowboys.
- [40:01]
A
Cowboys, right.
- [40:01]
C
In basketball, sorry Celtics fans, the number one brand is the Lakers worldwide.
- [40:06]
A
But in baseball, the Yankees have a sibling called the Mets.
- [40:11]
C
Yeah.
- [40:12]
A
In football, there's no other football team in Dallas.
- [40:15]
C
Right.
- [40:16]
A
I'm just saying from that perspective.
- [40:18]
C
Yeah, but I mean no city has two teams. In the NFL states can have two teams. But anyway, listen, this means you're uncomfortable with some topic.
- [40:28]
A
No, no, no, not at all. No, I'm not uncomfortable.
- [40:31]
C
Is there anything else we should talk about with this trade deadline right now?
- [40:34]
A
I don't know there's a little game called super bowl coming. Yeah. No, again, you're talking about the trade deadline. I'm helping you understand and helping the viewers understand and the listeners understand what it entails.
- [40:47]
C
What are your sources?
- [40:48]
A
I can ask you anything you want to. I'm the source. I don't need a source.
- [40:51]
C
I'm the source. And again, let's call this episode I'm the source.
- [40:54]
A
Yeah. The cool thing about it is I think people want to understand how these things actually work and how they go down. And I think sometimes there's excuses to be made. There's this idea of. Especially from a local perspective, you have local writers, and they have to try to find something to diffuse the fan uprage or outrage as it pertains to a trade instead of just being.
- [41:26]
C
I'll tell you something. If I lived in Cleveland, this is.
- [41:28]
A
Just a basketball decision.
- [41:29]
C
If I lived in Cleveland, I'd have some uprage right now.
- [41:31]
A
Don't try to make.
- [41:32]
C
I'd have some uprage right now if I lived in Cleveland.
- [41:35]
A
Yeah, but it's important not to. Don't try to make negative connotations and things.
- [41:39]
C
But, Rich, there's no way around the fact that. That he's 20, he's 10 years young. Like, forget about everything else. I'm not Dissing Harden. He's 10 years older. 10 years old.
- [41:47]
A
Yeah, but what I'm saying is you had local writers I'm seeing, trying to say certain things to give an excuse to why, and it's like, well, wait a minute. You kind of calling the kettle if.
- [41:59]
C
Excuse to why.
- [41:59]
A
That's not true.
- [42:00]
C
Excuse. What do you mean by excuse to.
- [42:02]
A
Why you moved a player.
- [42:03]
C
Why'd you move Garland?
- [42:04]
A
Why'd you.
- [42:05]
C
There must be something wrong with Garland.
- [42:06]
A
There must be something wrong with Harden. That's all B.S. that's nothing. You can't find a person in that organization or in that city to have any negative optics of no sort. If you want to talk about injuries and things like that, that's all fair game. That's part of business. But in terms of a character perspective, forget about it.
- [42:27]
C
LeBron signing with Cleveland next year, Max, move on.
- [42:31]
A
What's wrong with this guy.
- [42:34]
C
Bro? You want to talk a little Super Bowl? Sure.
- [42:36]
A
Yeah.
- [42:37]
C
So let me say, I'm gonna rant about this for a second.
- [42:40]
A
Oh, God. We almost made it through without a rant. How long you need to rant? Cause we only have, like. Oh, five minutes. I'll give you seven.
- [42:49]
C
I'll do five. Look, I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna come out and say it. Some years there's more buzz about the super bowl than others.
- [42:56]
A
You think it's whack this year?
- [42:57]
C
No, I don't. I think it's. But there isn't a buzz. Look, and this is super subjective, it's based on my own experience. There doesn't seem to be a lot of buzz about this Super Bowl. Like in some years, some years there's more buzz than others. And I was thinking about why is that the case, right? And I've come to the. My first thought was, well, there's not a star quarterback in the super bowl yet. There's going to be a star probably emerging from the super bowl, but there's not. And then I thought about it more and I was like, no, there's not even a star layer in the Super Bowl. Stefan Diggs is well known. Jackson Smith in Jigba is a great player, really good. But I'm talking about like, so here's a star in the NFL who played in the super bowl even though he was not as good as he used to be. Odell Beckham Jr. Was a star, right? Like when the Rams played the super bowl, they had a bunch of Matthew Stafford and they had a bunch of stars in the super bowl and it's the LA team and all that, that was a big star Super Bowl. But as you mentioned, there's no Mahomes, there's no Tom Brady, there's no brand name quarterback. But it's more than that. There isn't even a star. And then I started thinking, well, that's what this super bowl is about. A star will emerge from this super bowl, right?
- [44:14]
A
Yes, they will.
- [44:16]
C
If JSN goes for, you know, 200 yards and two touchdowns right now he's, you know, in the old days you'd be on the box of Wheaties, right? Like you.
- [44:24]
A
Well, this is the stage that makes stars.
- [44:25]
C
This is the stage, stage that makes stars. And when people look back at this super bowl, it'll look like there were stars in it because someone's gonna emerge. But at this moment I think that's really the issue, that it's a star making super bowl, not a star super bowl heading in.
- [44:42]
A
Well, I rather that. Don't give me the fluff, give me the substance.
- [44:47]
B
I agree.
- [44:48]
A
It's like I want a really good game.
- [44:49]
C
You create legacies here.
- [44:51]
A
That's because, listen, let's keep it this way because that means we're going to get a really good football game on Super Bowl Sunday versus You get us all our hopes all high.
- [45:03]
C
And then with the names.
- [45:04]
A
Yeah. And then it's done.
- [45:06]
C
There's another layer to it which is. It's more interesting to think about. Like, and I thought about this when the super bowl started. I looked at the AFC quarterbacks. Like, someone's about to create a legacy. Bo Nix or Drake May or Justin Herbert or something. We're gonna think about them totally different. We're. We're going to think about Sam Darnold or Drake May totally differently after this game.
- [45:27]
A
Well, that should be the NFL's marketing campaign around the super bowl going forward. A star is born.
- [45:34]
C
A star is born.
- [45:35]
A
Star is born.
- [45:36]
C
Leave it to Rich. Star is born.
- [45:38]
A
Super Bowl Sunday.
- [45:39]
C
A star is born.
- [45:40]
A
Star is born.
- [45:41]
C
Yeah. I wonder who that's going to. You know, when I look at the Patriots, I think the. Like, who are the most important people in the building, Right? Most important person to me in the building for a football team. Still the head coach followed by the quarterback. I think nowadays you could choose between the OC and your number one wide out. Right. I think that's because in the old days it'd be left tackle, defensive end, or pass rusher.
- [46:05]
A
Do you want to pick a star?
- [46:06]
C
No, I'm saying when I look at the Patriots, they have the coach, they have the quarterback, they have the O.C. they have a star wideout who performs well in big games or can.
- [46:16]
A
I know. But let's pick a star. Let's pick who you think is going to become a star. I want to go first.
- [46:22]
C
Go.
- [46:23]
A
I take Jackson Smith.
- [46:28]
C
I. I would. I'm going to take. That's a good one. That might have. No, I'll take Darnold. I think Darnold will win the game and it'll be a huge redemption.
- [46:37]
A
That's one and the same because.
- [46:38]
C
Yeah, right. Because it's going to be. Right. Yeah. They got. They got it. The. Seattle's just had the best team all year. Really.
- [46:44]
A
When you look at the state guys.
- [46:47]
C
Yeah.
- [46:47]
A
Oh.
- [46:48]
C
Oh, I gotcha. Yeah, I gotcha. But anyway, the Patriots have a lot of check boxes, including. They got a good rookie left tackle. Really good rookie left tackle. But Seattle basically checks every box.
- [47:01]
A
We have a lot of guys.
- [47:01]
C
The question is going to be the quarterback.
- [47:03]
A
The cool thing is we have a lot of guys playing. We have another Glenville guy and Ohio State guy, not to mention clutch.
- [47:11]
C
Clutch represents some Seattle Seahawks.
- [47:12]
A
I'm just telling you. Kobe Bryant, Charles Cross.
- [47:16]
C
Right.
- [47:16]
A
Jalen Milroe. And we have on the Patriots Side, too. Barmore's a beast, you know, So I think we have six guys. Six guys playing total.
- [47:31]
C
Six or seven, by the way, Robert Kraft not making the hall of Fame.
- [47:35]
A
Forget about it. It's getting ridiculous, man.
- [47:38]
C
It's getting ridiculous.
- [47:39]
A
We have to stop this.
- [47:41]
C
Also stop using your hall of Fame vote to register a complaint about, like, maybe they don't like that he has a young girlfriend. It's nobody's business. It's nobody's business. This is the problem. What could it be about? Like, he apparently didn't know about Spygate, right? So, like, what could it be about Kraft, that if he's not. If Robert Kraft is not a first ballot hall of Fame, if six owner.
- [48:07]
A
Bowls don't get you a first ballot hall of Fame.
- [48:10]
C
But not just that. Wait a minute, Wait a minute. Like, so I'll look at the Knicks, for example, and I'll say, hold on, Dolan. For years and years and years and years and years. It can't be every head coach. Cause there's no consistency. There can't be every GM because they come and go. Can't be every star player because they come and go. There's only one consistent you that's on the negative side. And I think he's gotten much better because obviously he finally found the right team. And so they're not a lasting stock.
- [48:39]
A
He's doing a great job.
- [48:40]
C
My point is the opposite is true, too. Kraft bought the team. Not only did they win a ton of Super Bowls, but this is a whole new regime now. Of course, it's a new coach. It's a new same OC but new coach, new quarterback, new team, and they're back in the Super Bowl.
- [48:58]
A
But you're basing off of one year. I'm saying forget this year. He's a First Battle hall of Famer.
- [49:03]
C
I know, but what I'm saying is it's beyond even one, what he's already accomplished. He runs an organization or owns an organization where there is enough health there. Right? We've all been in bad work environments. Good work environments. There's enough good stuff there that they're able to get back to the super bowl not that long after the last regime is gone. That's a Hall of Fame coach.
- [49:26]
A
He's a Hall of Fame coach. If you cut off half the years that he's owned the team.
- [49:31]
C
All right. Another thing we haven't talked about yet, which I actually think is relevant to this super bowl, is Clint Kubiak's. Clint Kubiak's hiring by The Raiders. He's the next head coach of the Raiders.
- [49:43]
A
That's tough.
- [49:44]
C
I think that's a big deal for this super bowl if your coordinator and who's done a great job is suddenly gone or not gone, but like distracted. Right.
- [49:56]
A
Because he has to. That's always an issue in college, too, when the coach, before going into the bowl game, they get hired by. It's just.
- [50:03]
C
That's just a but in the Super Bowl.
- [50:05]
A
I know, but it's what. You don't want the man to take advantage of his opportunities.
- [50:09]
C
Absolutely not. He should absolutely take the job, especially if he likes. That's what you really call quarterback coming.
- [50:14]
A
In a hard place.
- [50:16]
C
Yeah, but. But do you think it affects the odds of the Super Bowl? Like, not the actual odds, but in your mind, the odds?
- [50:22]
A
No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. Not. I mean, no.
- [50:29]
C
I was thinking this is related to why I think if the star that can emerge as Darnold. The reason is. And what I said in the NFC Championship game, the key play to me was like, with 12 minutes left in the game, third and long.
- [50:44]
A
But wait, are they letting throws it.
- [50:45]
C
Away instead of throwing an interception?
- [50:47]
A
Are they letting him coach the game?
- [50:49]
C
Yeah.
- [50:49]
A
Okay, so long as he's still coaching, then.
- [50:51]
C
No, no, but this. The reason it's related to me is Darnold is facing a very good defense, is playing very well in the playoffs. Right. And Drake may, even though he's turned the ball over a bunch in the playoffs, I trust Jake May under pressure. Drake May, there's something about him, not just with his legs, but when it matters most. I think he gives me the feeling he's going to come through. We'll see. As I said, like, I felt that way about C.J.
- [51:14]
A
Stroud.
- [51:14]
C
I was obviously wrong. But Darnold has to really thread the needle here where he's going to have to make some big plays potentially with the game on the line, but can't be reckless against this defense. That's why I think if he comes through, he is the star. But, man, if your OC is not 100%.
- [51:34]
A
No, I think he's been around a long time. He's a professional. You can focus. It's one game left in the season. It's the biggest game of. Of the year. I think he'll be fine.
- [51:53]
C
Giannis could be traded before tomorrow's deadline.
- [51:55]
A
Max, this guy's crazy.
- [52:02]
C
I hope so.
- [52:03]
A
Or.
- [52:03]
C
Yeah, I hope so. I don't want. There's nothing Going on in Milwaukee. Get him out of there, Rich. Let me see. Just show me a few texts.
- [52:11]
A
You wanna see a few texts?
- [52:12]
C
Yeah, let me see a few texts.
- [52:14]
A
What text you wanna see? Let me see. Actually, I'd rather not. I can't trust you. I can't trust you to. I can't trust you to not. Because here's the thing.
- [52:30]
C
Yes.
- [52:31]
A
You're such a linear guy.
- [52:34]
C
Yeah.
- [52:34]
A
That you can't even. Just, like, now.
- [52:37]
C
Yeah.
- [52:38]
A
Why are you asking me about these guys? We had a conversation. You know, I'm not giving you any. I said omerta. I'm not giving you any information about anything. About anything.
- [52:47]
C
You can. You can exercise your constitutional rights.
- [52:50]
A
No, I will not. I will not do that.
- [52:52]
C
There's so many amendments in the Constitution. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
- [52:55]
A
After we get to this deadline.
- [52:56]
C
Yeah.
- [52:58]
A
Then. Then you'll really get my basketball prowess in full throttle.
- [53:03]
C
Okay. Deal.
- [53:03]
A
But I'm not. No.
- [53:05]
C
Deal.
- [53:06]
A
Deal. Deal. Okay.
- [53:08]
C
See you on Friday.
- [53:08]
A
See you on Friday.
- [53:09]
C
See you on Friday. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul. Game over.
- [53:13]
A
Did they get. Are you following the comments? Distracted.
- [53:15]
C
He forgot to say, please subscribe. What comments?
- [53:18]
A
They know I've said, please subscribe. I've been saying the whole time, consistently, what comments? Are we getting constructive criticism? Are we getting comments? Well, I'm gonna check them.
- [53:27]
C
I'm check them. Now that you bring it up, where. Where should I go for comments? Like Spotify?
- [53:32]
A
Yes, we're on Spotify. Right. This is what you have to go.
- [53:35]
C
For in the comments.
- [53:36]
A
Why not? Okay. Good. Yeah. Good.
- [53:38]
C
All right. So do you. Do you want anything in the comments? You want them to.
- [53:41]
A
No, I just. I'm just, you know, seeing if we're getting better. It's important to know if we're getting better.
- [53:45]
C
You should do what a lot of these guys do with, like, a burner account and start putting stuff in the Spotify comments. Little Easter eggs for people to try and figure out what's going on.
- [53:54]
A
My name would be Mr. Rant.
- [53:57]
C
All right, Rich, I'll see you on Friday.
- [53:58]
A
All right, Max. See you Friday.
- [54:01]
C
Must be 21 and over and present in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-7710, 7867.