The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?

Date: December 31, 2025
Host: The Ringer
Podcast Hosts: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging and candid episode, sports media veteran Max Kellerman and NBA super-agent Rich Paul dig deep into several of the biggest storylines shaping basketball today. Key topics include the Denver Nuggets’ future after Nikola Jokic’s injury, what it really means to “love the game,” the psychology of player success and burnout, the underrated value of character/role players, and an extended debate about the idea of a LeBron James–Jimmy Butler trade (initially floated by Bill Simmons). The episode is packed with hard-earned insights, sharp banter, reflections on NBA culture, and generous helpings of “barbershop talk” about GOAT debates and team building.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Takes the Last Shot: MJ or LeBron?

[00:38–05:32]

• Rich Paul: Triples down on preferring Michael Jordan to take the last shot, but wants LeBron James to initiate the play and make the decision.
  • “Who do I want to take the last shot? It's Michael Jeffrey Jordan, born February 17, 1963... now who do I want to make the play? It's LeBron Ramon James, born December 30, 1984.” (Rich Paul, 01:47)
• Max and Rich stress authenticity and not being “yes men” in their convos.
• Max Kellerman: Agrees LeBron is the best “point guard” for his all-time team, but would have MJ with the ball in crunch time.
  • “On my all time team, I'll take LeBron James at the point, MJ at the two...” (Max Kellerman, 03:52)
• They discuss how “barbershop talk” and GOAT debates risk disrespecting the pioneers of the game and remind listeners of the difference between “better” (today’s athletes) and “greater” (historic achievement).

2. Jokic’s Injury & Nuggets Future (Draft Implications)

[06:55–13:51]

• Jokic’s Knee Injury: Initially feared catastrophic, but now determined to sideline him only 4 weeks.
• Rich Paul: Discusses potential silver lining—if Jokic were out longer, Nuggets could assess the rest of the roster more deeply and possibly get a strong draft pick in a loaded class.
  • “When things happen, like someone at the level of Jokic gets injured, you have to start to see what your other guys can do. It allows you to evaluate... ” (Rich Paul, 08:40)
• Draft talk: High-character, low-ego, high-IQ role players (e.g., Isaiah Harwell) are priority to fit around stars like Jokic and Murray.

3. The Underrated Value of Sacrifice & Role Players

[11:05–15:46]

• Aaron Gordon’s journey: From “franchise guy” in Orlando to thriving as a role player in Denver.
• Max Kellerman: Parallels with Andre Iguodala accepting a smaller role on Golden State and Michael Thompson backing up Kareem for the Lakers.
  • “That kind of move is so underrated. That’s the difference between a good team for a year or two and a real dynasty.” (Max Kellerman, 13:27)
• Rich Paul: Emphasizes that embracing a role is crucial for NBA career longevity.

4. “Loving the Game” vs. “What the Game Brings You”

[23:03–35:17]

• Extended discussion on why some talented players like Cam Reddish and Ben Simmons don’t reach their potential.
  • “Either you love what the game brings you, or you love the game.” (Rich Paul, 23:03)
• Max Kellerman: Argues that for the greats (Jeter, LeBron, Lillard), the “mountain” is always the next championship, not just reaching the league.
  • “Derek Jeter...the one thing he didn’t have? A sixth ring.” (Max Kellerman, 29:44)
• The pair debate whose perspective should matter most: teams/fans wanting hunger for greatness, or respecting athletes’ own definitions of success.

5. Burnout, Circumstance, and NBA Careers

[22:34–32:25]

• Cam Reddish and Ben Simmons serve as case studies for how mental fatigue, confidence, and “circumstance” (fit, opportunity, team changes) can derail promising careers.
• For Simmons: achieving all milestones quickly can lead to a lack of further “hunger.”
• Rich Paul: “Some guys get there and be like, okay, good, I got up here. Now I’m gonna go back down. Some guys get there and ... now I want to go higher. And that’s the difference.” (Rich Paul, 23:39)
• Also delves into the pressures of high draft picks and varying definitions of legacy.

6. Building Culture: Superstar Example & Role Clarity

[14:40–19:01, 35:36–44:49]

• Discuss how even franchise stars must “embrace their role,” play defense, set examples (e.g., LeBron when AD challenged him on defense).

• Luka Doncic Discussion: Criticized for not playing defense or buying all the way in; Max expresses frustration at "James Harden 2.0" aspects.

• International players have fewer “baggage” layers—less home pressure than U.S. stars.

• Rich Paul: Advises against superstars playing in their hometowns—too many distractions and pressures.

  • “If you a role guy, you could play at home, fine, play at home. If you a marquee guy, don't play at home.” (Rich Paul, 40:21)
  • “...everything is brought with me. My high school stuff, my muni league stuff. It's a mess. It's just so much. This is why international players actually have it better.” (Rich Paul, 43:30)

7. LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade Debate (“Fantasy Basketball”)

[46:38–54:09]

• Bill Simmons’ Idea: Proposes a LeBron-for-Butler swap (potentially to see LeBron with Steph in Golden State).
  • Max Kellerman: Initially dismissive, but then becomes convinced it makes basketball and narrative sense for both Lakers and Warriors.
    • “...the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.” (Max Kellerman, 50:39)
  • Rich Paul: Stays coy and slightly exasperated, reminding Max this is “fantasy” and not realistic, but admits any team would fit LeBron, any team would want Jimmy.
    • “I think Jimmy Butler plays basketball the right way to where Jimmy Butler fits on any team. Right now, I like him on the Golden State warriors.” (Rich Paul, 54:27)
• Playful back-and-forth about “fan perspective” vs. real NBA decision-making.
• Max on Lakers’ direction: “Lakers have to understand they’re not going anywhere...they’ve clearly given the franchise to Luka.” (Max Kellerman, 52:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On star player mindset:
  • “Everything that Ben wanted to happen for Ben happened for Ben. He was the number one pick...He got the max contract. In Cam's case, one...” – Rich Paul (22:34)
• On loving the game:
  • “Not everyone loves the game. They love the money.” – Rich Paul (34:05)
• On NBA role acceptance:
  • “The sooner you learn the want to embrace a role, that's the very beginning of your long term career. Guys that come in and don't embrace a role, short career.” – Rich Paul (14:19)
• On burnout and expectations:
  • “If you’re a lottery pick, two things could happen...the GM that drafted you—they’re going to want to invest in you. Some guy's talent and production outlasts the gm.” – Rich Paul (26:55)
• On LeBron & Steph trade fantasy:
  • “Explain to me why that should be fantasy.” – Max Kellerman (49:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Debating MJ vs LeBron as Closer: [00:38–05:32]
• Jokic Injury & Denver’s Future: [06:55–13:51]
• Role Players: Gordon and Iguodala: [13:05–15:46]
• The Love of the Game, Simmons/Reddish: [23:03–35:17]
• The Pressure of Playing at Home: [39:01–44:49]
• LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade Fantasy Debate: [46:38–54:09]
• College Football & New Year’s Resolutions: [55:26–61:49]

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Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode is unmistakably candid, thoughtful, and at times, playful—balancing deep basketball wisdom with the easy chemistry of two insiders who don’t pull punches. Rich Paul consistently grounds the conversation in the day-to-day realities of NBA life, while Max Kellerman presses for fan- and team-centric viewpoints, especially around legacy, hunger, and “what if” scenarios.

New Year’s takeaway:
Rich Paul emphasizes pursuing genuine happiness, thoughtfulness, and self-improvement—skills as relevant to podcast listeners as they are to rising NBA stars.

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This summary covers all critical content while maintaining the episode’s conversational, insightful, and sometimes irreverent tone. All quoted attributions and timestamps are verified from the transcript.

Transcript

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[Max Kellerman]

I got some shit for you on LeBron. And. But, but we're gonna get into that a little bit.

[Rich Paul]

But before, here's the thing. Yeah, I doubled down already on this and I'm tripling down on this already.

[Producer/Host]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not changing my mind about. I want Michael Jordan to take the last shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. Oh, oh, people are giving you stuff.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, I'm just saying because you starts this stuff and then you get to me and then you get people all round up when you ask these questions. Yeah, I'm tripling down. All right, so it's clear. And I saw somebody say, oh, it's kind of weird. What's weird?

[Max Kellerman]

Like, you think from afar people make assumptions about you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I think people think we sit in a room and it's just like, oh, let me sit back and just agree with everything somebody says. Because of what? Because like, that's not how we ever lived our lives ever.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

I wouldn't even, by the way, I wouldn't even be in the position I'm in. I would have never gotten the opportunity I got without being authentic and genuine. It does not work.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, and you don't want yes men around you either, because.

[Rich Paul]

And I've never been one and won't ever be one.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But with that being said, you asked me, who do I want to take the last shot? It's Michael Jeffrey Jordan, born February 17, 1963 in Brooklyn, New York. Okay, now who do I want to make the play? It's LeBron Ramon James, born December 30, 1984.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, you had to get that right, cuz his birthday was yesterday. I was right.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I'm just telling you. So when people say, oh, it's weird, there's nothing weird. Everyone has their own opinion, and I definitely have mine, by the way.

[Max Kellerman]

I want Michael Jordan and the ability, doing everything at the end of the game, make the decision with the ball, score.

[Rich Paul]

That's not true.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

[Rich Paul]

LeBron is the best decision maker to ever play the game. Just note that Michael Jordan went 6.

[Max Kellerman]

For 6, never went to his seventh game, gave the ball up when he needed to, hit the shot when he needed to.

[Rich Paul]

I think Michael Jordan would say, I want LeBron initiating the play. Oh, yeah, and making the right place.

[Max Kellerman]

Would I like LeBron to be on ball as the point guard and Michael be off ball?

[Rich Paul]

Sure, if you ask any.

[Max Kellerman]

But now I want Michael to have the ball.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I want LeBron. I want that ball in his hands. And I want things to be executed to get guys in spots and play their strengths. That's it. And if Michael can get to that 18 footer where he's square with that beautiful follow through, and LeBron's going to deliver it on time and on target. And guess what? We not I are going to win.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, well, look, we are going. Look, how's this one? And then we can get into the.

[Rich Paul]

Yokes, just being clear. But I don't, like, I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

On my all time team, you know, everyone puts their all time team together. And nowadays a lot of the kids like Steph over Magic, which not me, but okay. LeBron is actually my point guard. On my all time team, I'm playing with my point.

[Rich Paul]

You're making my point.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. On my all time team, I'll take LeBron James at the point, MJ at the two, and then you can talk about the three being Bird or Duncan.

[Rich Paul]

Here's the thing, like I always said, and I want to end this please, so we can get on with our show.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. Get bogged down in MJ LeBron thing.

[Rich Paul]

It's hard to not disrespect the pioneers of our game. So when you have these type of conversations, barbershop talk, type of conversations, they just go like all over the place.

[Max Kellerman]

Because people confuse better with greater. Of course, the athletes today are better. They build on what came before them.

[Rich Paul]

But you also don't have to necessarily make it about one thing or one person or tear somebody down. You know, people get crazy, but that's part of being a fanatic, a fan. I understand that. But if you listen when you talk about the last shot versus best player or you want the ball in this person's hands, we are a team. I think people think these guys just play by themselves on the court. That's not true.

[Max Kellerman]

Did LeBron give you shit about the thing? Did he hear anything about it? No. Has he commented to you about anything you said on this show?

[Rich Paul]

No, not at all. Not at all. We don't. That's the thing. Like we don't Nobody's tripping on that.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, Right.

[Rich Paul]

And do you. If you sat at a card table with us, you would say, did these guys spend 24 years together? They're going at each other. We don't play that. We don't do that.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're not going at each other, you don't really have a relationship.

[Rich Paul]

And there's accountability every which way. Right. Period. That's from all of us, by the way. That's how we got here. So.

[Max Kellerman]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.

[Rich Paul]

Please subscribe. You see, I added the please. I don't.

[Max Kellerman]

I can't do it.

[Rich Paul]

Well, it's a new year, Max. I need you to have a different mindset.

[Max Kellerman]

New Year Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com/gameover to get started 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut. Monday against the Heat. I can't believe this happened the day before yesterday. We if someone would have said offhand, when did Jokic hurt himself? I'd have said five or six days ago. I'd have said like almost a week ago. I was like, it happened on Monday.

[Rich Paul]

It did. Yeah. I saw the play.

[Max Kellerman]

He hyperextends his knee and you know, like there's the. What it means Jokic is now not going to be eligible to win the MVP. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Sucks.

[Max Kellerman]

He is one of only I looked this up. Look, LeBron deserved so many MVPs he didn't get. MJ deserved 10 MVPs. It's ridiculous that he didn't get 10. And LeBron's probably should have gotten seven.

[Rich Paul]

At least he should have got seven.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, right.

[Rich Paul]

You'll get you one of and one defensive player to the year.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. What was that?2013.

[Rich Paul]

And he never would have got unanimous because he did things his way. And people don't like when you do things your way, especially in sports.

[Max Kellerman]

I looked it up. There are only two players to ever be top five finish. Sorry finish one or two in the MVP voting for five consecutive years. And the same two for six consecutive years. So the only two until Jokic came around were Bill Russell and Larry Bird. And then Jokic joined that group, and he was about to join them in the six consecutive years of either first or second place finishes in mvp. I felt terrible for him. But the good thing was it looked like a catastrophic injury. It looked like, my God, what, is this gonna change his career? And it turns out, even as early as yesterday, we thought it could be 12 weeks, right? It turns out it's only gonna be four. What do you think this means for the Nuggets?

[Rich Paul]

Well, what I thought it meant when I thought it was gonna be 12 weeks, I was like, wow, this could be. I know they might not want to hear this, but this could be a blessing disguise given the fact that if. If it was longer. Now I'm glad it's not longer. But if it was longer, how is it.

[Max Kellerman]

How would it have been a blessing in discussion?

[Rich Paul]

Well, now you. Because now a couple things happen. When things happen, like someone at the level of Jokic gets injured, you have to start to see what your other guys can do. It allows you to evaluate, even in more of a depth perspective. Right. Of guys that's already there now. They would have to change the offense because the offense goes through. Through Jokic at the nail. And he does a lot of different things in ball screens and things like that. He's just so dynamic. But then secondly, I'm thinking about. Now, wait a minute. This team is already who they are. This current draft coming up is loaded.

[Max Kellerman]

So if Jokic would have missed 12 weeks. No Aaron Gordon, who's been tremendous for them. No Christian Braun, maybe they fall out of the play in even. And they. And so who's in the draft that you were looking at?

[Rich Paul]

I mean, this draft is loaded to the point. And again, you're not gonna get up to the point to where you get. Well, you just never know because, yeah, it's the NBA. It's the NBA. In the event you get lucky and you get up there and you able to get a Peterson or a Caleb Wilson or even AJ or just, you know, another six, five Braden buries.

[Max Kellerman]

But let's say you're 15 to 20.

[Rich Paul]

Something like that, then you're looking at somebody like Isaiah Harwell. It's a name you probably don't jump off the right. Sure. But when you talk about what he would bring to the tape. 6, 6, 6 defender that can hit a shot, like you need high IQ guy, low ego guy like you need those type of guys around your star players. People always think about, okay, let me go in and get these names. Well, you have to think about a couple things. When I have a guy like Jokic and I have Murray, I have two pillars right now, all I'm trying to. I'm trying to figure out, okay, if we bring this guy in our locker room, one, does he fit in with the team? Right. Two, are they able to buy into how we want to play the game? Three, are they gonna embrace the role, be coachable?

[Max Kellerman]

That's why when they got Aaron Gordon, it was so, like, the first thing Aaron Gordon does. This dude, he buys a gym and lives in, like, he builds an apartment. He lives in a gym that he bought. Soon as I saw that, I was like, this dude.

[Rich Paul]

Well, think about Aaron Gordon, and you gotta tip your hat to him. And this is not Mr. Baez. You got to tip your hat to him. He was the fourth pick in the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

When you are the fourth pick in the draft, and this is why.

[Max Kellerman]

This is why I've brought up Gordon, because you're saying the ego. You have to fit in and buy in, this dude gets, winds up on the Nuggets, buys a gym, lives in the gym, and then plays his role.

[Rich Paul]

Well, coming from Orlando, where he had.

[Max Kellerman]

To play a different role, just like Iguodala on gold.

[Rich Paul]

So now when he comes to the Nuggets, he figures it out. And when you got a guy like Aaron Gordon, you got a guy like Aaron Gordon in the dunker spot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It's crazy, but you have your best player. That not only is your best player from a talent perspective, the way Jokic thinks the game. Yeah. He's gonna make the right basketball play at that size. Things be. And then now. Okay, Aaron got better with the jump shot.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

With the three ball. He's defensively. You. You start building on things.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's what I mean. You bring in guys like when Golden State acquires Iguodala, who was the number one option in Philly, also a very high draft pick, who's a little miscast. What's that?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he did.

[Max Kellerman]

But. But. But in Philly, he was a little miscast as a number one option. Right. That's not going to be a championship team. But. But Iggy winds up in a place where he accepts what he has to do and was hugely important. You know, maybe I'll wind up saying, I want Aaron Gordon or something instead of Iguodala, I'll be a meme again.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you do want Aaron Gordon. I Think anybody wants a healthy Aaron Gordon?

[Max Kellerman]

No question.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Because the kind of guy is in the draft. You're saying you can find a high character, helpful guy in the draft at 15 or 20.

[Rich Paul]

And I guarantee you with those type of guys, we've seen them all. We've seen Iguodalas. You've now seen the Aaron Gordons. If you think back to some of the championship teams, when you think about the guys that sacrifice, so to speak, came in high, but really embraced a certain role, the teammates love them, right? Love them, love them.

[Max Kellerman]

That's like the Iguodala or Aaron Gordon move. That kind of move is so underrated. And that's the difference between a team that maybe is good for a year or two, like at the top level, and a team that can make a dynasty like the Iguodala. Aaron Gordon acquisition is the most under the radar, dynasty building acquisition. I think in sports, when you have.

[Rich Paul]

A guy that was top talent, that comes into your culture and that guy is willing to say, I'm going to do whatever it takes to help the team win, I'll give you another one.

[Max Kellerman]

Michael Thompson, Klay's dad, Michael Thompson was the number one overall pick. He was giving him 20 and 12. He gets traded to the Lakers, knows he's obviously going to back up Kareem and he'll tell you like it was the happiest day of his sports life.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I tell guys coming in the draft all the time, the sooner you learn the want to embrace a role, that's the very beginning of your long term career. Guys that come in and don't understand how to embrace a role, they're going to have a short career.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I'll extend that. A guy like Luka also has to play a role because even though the role he cast is as a star, right. He's cast as the star, the leading man. But there's still things that he has not embraced yet that come along with that role, that if he were to do that, the Lakers would be much better off. Including, as Reggie Miller pointed out last night, guys running by, move your feet on defense, like move a foot, do something, show you gotta. You know. When LeBron has been great with the Lakers, it's when like AD challenged him to play defense and all of a sudden the Lakers looked completely different. Even though LeBron's an old man, was he was playing defense when that guy will lead by example. And that's something that. So what I'm saying is no matter what role you have, including as the star. You have to fully embrace what comes with that. And it's like, you know, it's not just the Iguodalas or Aaron Gordons giving up being the primary scorer on a team or something like that. It's also the star giving up the idea that they can just play their way. Right. Like they have to make some sacrifices.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Normally it's not the superstar guy that's going to be the all defensive guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Doesn't have to be all defense.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying.

[Max Kellerman]

How about some defense?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just saying. And even, even.

[Max Kellerman]

Even in LeBron's case, he's none defense, not all defense.

[Rich Paul]

People get on him about the defense today. Yeah, but we've seen it. We've seen that. Yeah, we've seen it.

[Max Kellerman]

He's 41 years old.

[Rich Paul]

I understand. If you had to depend on the 41 year old, we're in trouble anyway. Hold on.

[Max Kellerman]

Luke was 26.

[Rich Paul]

I'm saying prior to that. Prior to that. Anytime you have a guy like that who can switch one through five, you saw in the finals Garden, Duncan to Kawhi to Tony, Parker to Janobi.

[Max Kellerman]

Dude, you don't have to tell me in, what was it, 12 or 13 when LeBron went crazy defensively, that was the best defensive player I've ever seen in my life in basketball. Is Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman was the best defensive player I've ever seen. He could legit guard one through five, and it was a problem for that player. He had the best defensive and rebounding instincts I've ever seen.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that was a conversation yester.

[Max Kellerman]

What's that?

[Rich Paul]

I sent you the clip.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, Draymond.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But not to go off on that.

[Max Kellerman]

Not to go off. Draymond offensively could do more, and Draymond changed the game.

[Rich Paul]

That was a good defensive topic, no question.

[Max Kellerman]

We could do it if you want. But defensively, my point is the closest thing I've ever seen to Dennis Rodman. Defensively. It's going to sound funny. Was LeBron James that year. It was the LeBron James when he could switch onto Derrick Rose and like, there wasn't anything he couldn't do.

[Rich Paul]

But the point I'm saying is I don't want to be too harsh on Luka because I do think Luka will play defense. And I also think those are conversations to be had. But again, during the regular season, guys, you know, if we really broke down everybody's film in terms of the star players that you're asking to score 30 every night, very few of them gonna score 30 every night and play defense. This is what makes ant so really.

[Max Kellerman]

The greatest of all time. Dude, though Rich, like every time there's a white player who's over 6 foot 6 and he can play an overall game, he gets compared to Larry Bird. Right? Larry Bird could play defense. I mean for that era.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But you didn't see every game I'm talking about. I'm talking about.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes you did. You saw. You might not see him be on ball shutting a guy down.

[Rich Paul]

This is what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

He played smart defense every game.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is when you are in a playoff setting right now, defense just takes effort, effort and energy. Want I get all that. But there is something to be said that if you're asking me to score 35 a night on one end, I'm not saying just be a matador. I'm not saying that. But I am saying we have to look at everyone's film. Cause it's easy to have revisionist history. And I know a lot of people get on these shows and they talk about certain things. Now I'm never going to go against a Hall of Famer. They know what they see, et cetera. All I'm saying is that's just a conversation, right?

[Max Kellerman]

And then you have to push that. If luka instead of 35 a night, scored 28 a night, 27 a night. Play some. At least play heads up defense, team defense.

[Rich Paul]

And I think he will.

[Max Kellerman]

Austin Reaves is not a good defender. But Austin Reaves is a willing team defender.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, I think he will.

[Max Kellerman]

Steph Curry's not a good defender, but he's a willing team defender. At least he was when he was younger, right? Luka? That's disgusting. What I saw last night. Let's be honest.

[Rich Paul]

I think let's just call it off night then. If you want to say that there.

[Max Kellerman]

Have been too many of those, man.

[Producer/Host]

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[Max Kellerman]

Into something that touches on something, but I wanted to ask you real quick first because you like you brought up guys in the draft who could help the Nuggets if they're standing falls because Jokic is out. Let's say it's more than four weeks or something happens. Christian Braun also out.

[Rich Paul]

They're missing guys and you could get. Cause there's so many 6, 7, 6, 8, 6, 9, 6, 10 guys. You could get a kid and just develop them.

[Max Kellerman]

Develop. Look, Scottie Pippen was developed. I mean he wasn't a sure fighter. Oh my God.

[Rich Paul]

So there's a lot of kids like that.

[Max Kellerman]

So let me ask you about that though. Cause that's the upside. The guys who develop, you know, a lower draft pick, he's not a starter. Then there's the flip of that. And this comes off a news story that Cam Reddish, who signed with a Lithuanian team, didn't stick with a Lithuanian team. Now I don't know if that means he left because he wanted to leave or I mean I can't imagine he's not good enough to stick in Lithuania. But he's an example of a guy who was a stud in the draft. Right.

[Rich Paul]

And before the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, it didn't work out. Like why is it that some guys work out and a guy like Cam Reddish who passes the eyeball test doesn't.

[Rich Paul]

This is a tough one for me because I recruited Cam Reddish. I sat on his parents couch, great family. He was always somebody that was just uber, uber talented. I think sometimes, man, sometimes these young guys, they just get burnt out. It's a mental fatigue.

[Max Kellerman]

So Cam is not an example of like you also represented Ben Simmons, who for a minute looked like the. I thought at one point, I think I came out on first take. Back then it was like he's the best show in sports, right? Like he's 6 foot 10 with a handle and like great passer and he couldn't shoot at all. But that looked like the only thing that was missing from him. And all of a sudden it's like he fell off A cliff. So you're not so.

[Rich Paul]

And it was like, those are two different scenarios. Because the difference is everything that Ben wanted to happen for Ben happened for Ben. He was the number one pick in the draft.

[Max Kellerman]

Check.

[Rich Paul]

That he was the rookie of the year.

[Max Kellerman]

Check.

[Rich Paul]

He was a perennial all star.

[Max Kellerman]

Check.

[Rich Paul]

He was all NBA.

[Max Kellerman]

Check.

[Rich Paul]

And. And he got the max contract.

[Max Kellerman]

He got the second contract.

[Rich Paul]

He got the max contract. In Cam's case, one.

[Max Kellerman]

So he got full. You're saying by the time he got the second deal.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Well, you gotta think there's two ways to go about this. Either you love what the game brings you, or you love the game. And when you play this game for so long as a kid, and most kids don't say, oh, I want to get to the NBA and I want to be great in the NBA for 15 years. No, they dream of making it to the NBA. And so you're going up that mountain. You're going up that mountain. Some guys get up that mountain and say, well, I think it depends.

[Max Kellerman]

I think it depends. You're talking about what is your mountain, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But here's what I'm saying. I want to finish my point. The point I'm trying to make is some guys get there and be like, okay, good, I got up here. Now I'm going to go back down. Some guys get there and like, okay, now I want to go higher. And that's the difference. Like in Cam's case, I just think. I truly believe this. And I think Cam, again, I watched his kid score 50 of the easiest points. I mean, me and Mav was together, and Mav was like, damn, that looked easy.

[Max Kellerman]

I was sure he was going to be a great NBA scorer.

[Rich Paul]

I was sure he was going to be. It did six, nine, fluid. But, you know, when he got to college, he. He got there and he was there with rj and he was there with Zion. Yep. So he was kind of like the third guy that could do something mentally to you. Just mentally. Right. Confidence. Our game is 90% mental. When you get to the NBA, everyone's uber talented.

[Max Kellerman]

So wait, you're not. So you're saying that Cam. It's not an issue of, like, he, like, he didn't love the game?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. No, I don't think it's an issue of that. I don't know what the issue is. What I. I'm just giving you what I suspect. Being in it and being around all of these kids since they're. Since they've been young. I'm Just giving you the journey. That part happens. Then you go to the draft, right. And you, you know, all this whole time. This is why I don't really love mock drafts. You're looking and you're supposed to be a top five pick where you go 10. And not only do you go 10, you go 10 to a team that just took a player that is from your city or from your area that you were supposed to be ranked better than the whole time in front of you at four. DeAndre Hunter went four. So now you got two guys that play the same position on the same team, and then you get traded.

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying it's circumstance.

[Rich Paul]

Is circumstance.

[Max Kellerman]

How much of it is circumstance and how much of it is. This happens to me, evaluating college quarterbacks all the time. I'm horrible at it. Because I look at him in college, I'm like, that he's going to be. It doesn't turn out that way. Sometimes it's that what you can do at a certain level of competition, like you can hit AAA pitching, but in the majors, you just can't do it the same way. I suspect that there's something about Cam Reddish's game that just didn't translate on the same level that it looked like it was gonna translate when he was in college. You know, because if you're saying it's not an issue of the love of the game.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Then I think it's the other thing. Then you would rise above the circumstance.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. But sometimes you need. Some guys need, along with the opportunity, a little tlc. They need a little tlc. And the problem with the NBA is, or any league for that matter, but especially in the NBA, there's a draft every year. The higher you go in the draft, the higher the expectation. And right away, right now, again, and.

[Max Kellerman]

These kids are coming with very little college or no college.

[Rich Paul]

Now, if I'm a lottery pick. If I'm a lottery pick, two things could happen. When you lottery pick, you either lottery pick and your team. You know, if you go to a bad team, let's just say call it. When I say bad team, a team that's not vying for contending in any way, you're there. The GM that drafted you, they're there too, right? So they picked you. They picked you. And they're going to want to see you develop. They're going to want to invest in you.

[Max Kellerman]

Sure.

[Rich Paul]

Some guy's talent and production outlasts the gm. The GM could change that player still there.

[Max Kellerman]

But if the GM goes and you're Stuck there. Right.

[Rich Paul]

And. Or if you get traded to another team, well, that GM didn't draft you. They're taking you back into trade. They're taking what they call. They're taking a flyer on you. But then you have to.

[Max Kellerman]

I want to get back to the mountain. Right. Cause I think that metaphor of, you know. So Ben Simmons checks all his. And then he's full. He's not hungry anymore because he ate everything like he ate.

[Rich Paul]

He got it all quick.

[Max Kellerman]

First round pick or number one overall pick, rookie of the year. Da, da, da, da, da.

[Rich Paul]

Don't forget the $49 million Nike contract.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. The shoe deal. And then also the second deal, which you get to. Which is a max deal. It depends what your mountain is. If your mountain. So he's on top of the mountain now. He's good. If your mountain. Other guys. The mountain's the championship. Let me give you. So here's something that really stands out to me when you talk about the greatest to ever do it, because there are levels. I remember reading an article. It was like an interview with Derek Jeter in one of the New York tabloids. And he'd already won five World Series. He won a World Series mvp. He'd never been MVP of a regular season. He won a batting crown, the whole thing. And they said, what's the one thing that you want that you don't have in your career? So your brain. Oh, that's an interesting question. He's done it already. He's got ripped off of one mvp. Went to Justin Morneau one year. I think that was like 07.

[Rich Paul]

Justin Morneau won the MVP over Derek Jeter. Yeah, Derek Jeter.

[Max Kellerman]

And. Or was it Maurer? And he was one of those Minnesota guys. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

And then. And there was another year. So I'm thinking he might say, oh, win an mvp. Or, like, what is he gonna say? Know what he said? The one thing he didn't have that he wanted a sixth ring. Because Derek Jeter. What his mountain is, is winning the championship. So a normal person would think he's already got. But championships, he's like, yeah, those are five. I want the next championship. His mountain is different than Ben Simmons.

[Rich Paul]

That's okay. But that don't make. Here's what I'm saying. That does not make Ben Simmons. See, what we do in sports is we say, oh, Ben Simmons need to be like this person. No, Ben Simmons need to be like Ben Simmons.

[Max Kellerman]

No, actually, Ben Simmons needed to be like someone else, because it's a waste of Talent.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. That's not necessarily true, Max. Because if you look at what he was able to do in a short span. Right. We just checked every box. Rookie of the Year, perennial All Star Rich.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're Ben Simmons or if you're his family or if you're in business with him.

[Rich Paul]

What do you mean? I represented the guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. I get it.

[Rich Paul]

You don't think I wanted him to play longer and more. And his career's not over. Let's see.

[Max Kellerman]

What if it's over? The team that drafted him or the team that acquired him. You don't want him to be like Ben Simmons. That's the whole point. You want him to be like LeBron James. Why couldn't he have been like LeBron?

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Taller than LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'm saying. That's you as a fan. Yeah. Wanting more for you. We don't know what he wanted for him.

[Max Kellerman]

But you're seeing it purely from the athlete's point of view. And the athlete. The pool of athletes is several thousand. In sports, the pool of fans is tens of millions.

[Rich Paul]

Right. I just want to be clear about something, including myself. Yes. If it was up to me, I would have wanted him to have a 20 year career. He was that good. But you can't necessarily ignore some of the things that took place. You're talking purely from a talent perspective.

[Max Kellerman]

No, like a team perspective. If you're figuring out who you want to draft, if you're figuring out they.

[Rich Paul]

Pick them number one.

[Max Kellerman]

If you're figuring out who you want to acquire, you don't want Ben Simmons. Cause it's a dead end. You're not going to get a championship.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I'm saying. You're not saying that on draft day. You're saying that now.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, I have more information now.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you're playing the cards face up.

[Max Kellerman]

At that point, Ben Simmons career at a certain point died. And what I'm saying is the reason it died, I think based on our conversation, which I find illuminating, the reason it died is because his mountain was. Was not the mountain you want your best player to have. Derek Jeter's mountain goes up infinitely if you have five chips. The thing you want, you're not thinking about. It's the Damian Lillard line. I love this line. Lillard's a good rapper. Don't believe that. Time is money. Money is time. You stay focused. You look up and your money is fine. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Like 100%.

[Max Kellerman]

And Damian Lillard even though he didn't win a championship, has that championship mentality. You want a dude like that.

[Rich Paul]

I'm going to tell you this. I remember having a conversation, me and Ben talking, and I had the conversation. I said, ben, you got so much left in the tank, bro. So much left in the tank. And by the way, if you just become a pick and roll five at the end of games, because you're able to, your playmaking ability makes you a different rolling big. Like, we see so many, we see so many rolling bigs with low iq, you actually have a high iq. So at worst case scenario, if you just become. We know what the defense was kind.

[Max Kellerman]

Of Bill Walton on wheels, you know.

[Rich Paul]

You know, it was all first team, all defense.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. He could guard all five positions.

[Rich Paul]

So if you just become that. Were you rolling down the lane, dunk, the man rotates over, kick to the.

[Max Kellerman]

If you hit the right speed and.

[Rich Paul]

Perfect pass, you're $30 million player. Just become that dude.

[Max Kellerman]

No question.

[Rich Paul]

So what I'm saying is we don't know. And until the book is still open, right. Maybe he comes back.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I don't think the book is open.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I don't know. I like to give all athletes the benefit of the doubt.

[Max Kellerman]

But, man, so many fans feel like they've been burnt by Ben Simmons. Oh, my God. If you're a fan of any team he played for, you feel so burnt by this dude.

[Rich Paul]

I think again, we can. There's been injuries that's come to that. There's been a lot of different things that comes to that.

[Max Kellerman]

You told me when we were talking yesterday, not everyone loves the game.

[Rich Paul]

Not everyone loves the game.

[Max Kellerman]

They love the money. Right. You want players on your team as a fan or as a franchise that love the game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you want.

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, I watched Andrew Bynum here in la and Embiid gets hung with this rap. And Embiid's a better version of Bynum, obviously, but it was especially true of Bynum. I thought he was a big, actual classically big center. Even bigger than a lot of the centers. He had good feet, he had soft hands, he had skills. And I didn't blame him. Because if you don't love basketball, you don't love basketball. I don't want to talk for him, but. And if people are going to pay you tens of millions of dollars to do something, you'd be a fool not to do it. But I always felt like if Andrew Bynum loved basketball the way Derek Jeter loved baseball, he'd have been on the hall of Fame.

[Rich Paul]

Well, guess what? We could say that for everybody, Max. You could say that for everybody. People always ask me, why does this guy keep playing? What do you mean? He's in love with the game, right? Kd in love with the game. Steph in love with the game. The great ones are in love with the game.

[Max Kellerman]

Why would you ever stop playing in the NBA if you didn't have.

[Rich Paul]

If there's great, there's good, there's super talented, there's just. Okay, like, you know, in that case, you want all those guys to play as many years as they possibly can.

[Max Kellerman]

But let me ask you, AD in love with the game.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Love the game.

[Max Kellerman]

This is the reason I bring it up, okay? Everyone's talking Giannis right now because, oh, if he gets moved. Now, if Giannis were to be moved, the amount of resources it would take for the team acquiring him to get him would be astronomical.

[Rich Paul]

You're saying resources? What do you mean, resources?

[Max Kellerman]

You mean assets, layers, draft picks, you know, then what you have to pay.

[Rich Paul]

What they would want.

[Max Kellerman]

So whatever team he moves to, some of the improvement is offset by what they had to give up. And also, they're hamstrung going forward a bit because they had a certain amount of.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's what makes it so tricky for Giannis.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, but what I'm saying is they are putting, and I think Giannis loves basketball. They are putting. They are putting that number on Giannis. Like, maybe we're willing to do this because he's perceived as being in the middle of his prime. In fact, Giannis may only have a year or two left of his prime. Who knows? AD on the other hand, your client, when I watch him, he looks. When he's healthy, he looks as good as he ever.

[Rich Paul]

Like, he looks great, of course. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And, oh, but he's only going to play 60 or 65 games. That's been his whole career. 60 or 65 games. So in my mind, and I know a lot of times this doesn't work out, like, don't take the discount on the player who's a little past it or who's more injury prone, just spend on the blue chip guy. The Dodgers don't mess around in the bargain bin. They go after Freddie Freeman, they go after Mookie Betts, and the Yankees mess around in the bargain bin and they wind up not as good as the Dodgers. So I understand that argument, but in this case, you would be paying pennies on the dollar for what you'd have to pay to get Giannis in terms of draft picks and what resources you have to get AD to me, if I'm a lot of teams, I'm looking at AD before I'm looking at Giannis for that reason. And it brings to. It brings up Chicago, right, Because he's from Chicago. Does it make sense for AD to go home, to go to play where he's from? Does it ever make sense for a player to go and play in the market where he's from?

[Rich Paul]

Well, two things, just so I can educate you on this.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay.

[Rich Paul]

When you're a team looking to add a player at the level of Anthony Davis, or even a Giannis for that matter, what you're saying to yourself is this guy puts us over the top, Right? Right now you're looking at whatever it takes to get that player where they fit, et cetera, but you're definitely saying this guy puts us over the top. So any team out there that's looking to trade for AD and who's to say Dallas wants to trade him? You hear all the media, there's conversations. But again, if you're looking to move a person, it's all based upon timeline, age, you want to go younger, etc. So it's not a knock necessarily to the player. I think sometimes we look at it as like you hear your name in trades or people look at guys in trades.

[Max Kellerman]

You know who could use ad? It's the Lakers. The Lakers could use AD Come on, Max.

[Rich Paul]

Max. See, this is what I'm saying. You don't. I'mma start charging you for some of the stuff that you do on the show because it reflects on me when you do these things.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not speaking for you. I'm speaking for me.

[Rich Paul]

Okay? Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I can't run a calculation in my mind about you use ad.

[Rich Paul]

Any team that wants to win a championship to use ad. Okay, so ask your second question about wanting to play at home. I don't think any player should ever want to play at home.

[Max Kellerman]

Ever.

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron seemed to do pretty good in Cleveland.

[Rich Paul]

When he went there, he did extremely well. But I'm telling you, I had a front row seat, obviously. And it's tough, man, it is tough to play at home for so many reasons that has went to the finals.

[Max Kellerman]

Every year, had the greatest comeback in the history of the NBA against the unbeatable team.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you something, he handled it like a champ. But you know who handled it even better than he did? Who is Randy Mims. See, people don't talk about that. Randy Mims handled it like a champ, no question about it. Because everything was on him, right? And he handled it like a champion. This is why I talk about the ecosystem of an athlete. Somebody has to wanna play that role. And that role is not the glamorous role, but somebody. It's an important role. Nevertheless. The reason why I say this is because, man, the NBA season is a rollercoaster. Being a guy, especially if you. If you a role guy, you could play at home, fine, play at home. If you a marquee guy, don't play at home. Because every night, it's tickets. Depending on how many family members you got. And for every one family member you got, they got three friends, right? Right.

[Max Kellerman]

It's just a whole other job.

[Rich Paul]

These tickets aren't free. Then when you come. When you. When you leave out that locker room, man, you just may want to go home to your family. You may not want to see nobody, not even your agent, for that matter. I just had this conversation. Me, Draymond, d' Anthony Melton, and Jimmy Butler were talking, and this was an opportunity for me to ask them. And I did. And I said, you know, obviously, I represent Draymond. I do not represent Jimmy. I do not represent.

[Max Kellerman]

You just said a magic word that reminded me of something, but go ahead.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but I asked him a question. I said, hey, man, take me through the course of your day. And if it's a game day, you know, when do you want to see your representation? Do you want to see the representation before the game, after the game, et cetera? And they all had different answers. The reason why I asked that is because the league has totally changed. When I first came in the league 24 years ago, it was simple. You go to the game after the game, you go to a steakhouse, you. And that was it. Now they don't want to go eat. Guys have chefs. It's a different dynamic. So where are you spending the time? I see a lot of people, especially agents with the. I mean, I don't know how many of those earbuds Apple has sold, but everybody got them in. And I talked to so many people a day. You can't be talking that much. And it's like, when do you want to see, you know, anybody for that matter? I was just putting myself in that position to better myself. But I'm saying, in terms of, you.

[Max Kellerman]

Know, why everyone has chefs now, right? And they used to Steakhouse. Because 24 years ago, you were dealing with one level of player. 24 years later, you're dealing with Everyone.

[Rich Paul]

Having chefs, I think it's been educated. Because here's the thing, guys may come out and you like and you. And as a rookie, and it's like, oh, man. Chef costs 75,100 grand. Depending on what city you live in, somebody may say to you, that's too much money. There's never. That's not. If I'm investing in myself.

[Max Kellerman]

Especially since you're going to spend that in the restaurants anyway.

[Rich Paul]

Exactly. And you know, that cook at the restaurant or the chef at the restaurant, he hasn't met with your nutritionist on your team to understand what. What you're allergic to all those type of things. So, anyway, the other part about playing at home, that whether you play at home or not, that you don't necessarily get to see is now I have to live up. Not just so much as live up. Everything is brought with me. Right. Everything is brought with me. My high school stuff, my muni league stuff. It's a mess. It's just so much. This is why international players actually have.

[Max Kellerman]

It better, because all that stuff is left behind.

[Rich Paul]

They don't have American players come into the NBA weighing more than they actually.

[Max Kellerman]

Weigh, carrying a lot of weight.

[Rich Paul]

It's a lot, man. It's a.

[Max Kellerman]

Not to mention, oftentimes they have to bring a generation out of poverty, too.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I'm not talking about family. I'm talking about. It's just a lot of weight, period. And there's no metric for that. There's no metric for that. And you cannot. If you had a broke arm, you got a cast on, leg, you got a cast on. If you had whiplash, you got a neck brace on, et cetera. But when your brain is fractured a little bit, or even if it's a hairline fracture, we can't see that. And the average person is saying, I'm good. And from an athlete perspective, just taught to be macho and you know this and that. Playing at home adds a whole nother layer to that. We haven't gotten to winning the Chicago.

[Max Kellerman]

So you wouldn't want AD to go to Chicago.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not getting into any of that.

[Max Kellerman]

We're not having that because what you just said. What you just said was, if you're a role player, go home. AD Is not a role player.

[Rich Paul]

I don't want any marquee player. I wouldn't. I can't control it. Because obviously, if they got the money and they want to pay and the guy chooses want to go there, then great. What I'm saying is, I would rather a marquee player not play in his hometown unless. Unless they could handle everything that comes with it because there are some benefits to it's all based upon how you manage it.

[Producer/Host]

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[Max Kellerman]

[e-mail] youm said a name that reminded me of this topic. I want to get into it. Bill Simmons. Not Ben Simmons. Bill Simmons.

[Rich Paul]

What did Bill Simmons do now?

[Max Kellerman]

Said a couple days ago and at first and I saw it and I was like, yeah, that's fun, but let's get back to reality.

[Rich Paul]

I know what this is.

[Max Kellerman]

And he even couched it this way. He wasn't like, this is realistic. But he said, look, the numbers work. LeBron and Steph have always said that they wanted to play together. What about Jimmy Butler for LeBron James? So at first I like, oh yeah, this fun. Did I fancy. But you know what? I knew you were gonna say that. I woke up this morning thinking about that after watching the game last night. I slept on it. That trade makes a lot of sense, Rich. Talk me out of this one. First of all, LeBron and Luka are a bit redundant, I think. Less so. Jimmy Butler, though, he's a very high IQ player who can handle the ball and play the point and all that stuff. But less so with Luka, particularly because Jimmy Butler plays defense and LeBron and Steph would compliment each other very well. I mean, we've seen that already. They complement each other very well. And Jimmy Butler would bring to the Lakers. Not only would they get a little younger there. I mean, Jimmy's 36, but he's not 41. But he would bring the ruckus to the Lakers that they need. Like someone needs to cause a problem with Luka. Luka can't just be. If the Lakers gave him the keys to the franchise. He can't just do whatever he wants. If he dribbles the ball to death and doesn't get his teammates involved and plays hero ball. And It's James Harden 2.0 and doesn't move his feet on defense, doesn't even make an effort.

[Rich Paul]

What's gotten into you? Did you wait? What.

[Max Kellerman]

Did Luca do to you? I was disgusted last night. I was disgusted.

[Rich Paul]

I was disgusting. It feels like it. What did Luka do? How did you wake up on the wrong side of bed?

[Max Kellerman]

Luka Doncic. Luka should be the best player in the NBA. He should be. But he's not. He's not. He was precocious. Like, look where he was when he was 22. He should be farther along. And I know he's a great offensive player. So was James Harden. We see that style doesn't win championships. And you gotta have at least pretend to care about defense. Right. Jimmy Butler's New Year Max would confront Luka in the right way in that locker room.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna need you to be a little more positive in the new year.

[Max Kellerman]

This is positive.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I would say to you.

[Max Kellerman]

I think it would positively affect everyone.

[Rich Paul]

Here's what I would say to you. Because first of all, I'm going on Bill's show. He has to quit with his fantasy basketball. Why? I don't play fantasy. I know. We have FanDuel.

[Max Kellerman]

Explain to me why that should be Fantasy.

[Rich Paul]

Fantasy.

[Max Kellerman]

Why should it be? The numbers work. LeBron said he wants to play with Steph. Steph. He said he wants to play with LeBron.

[Rich Paul]

They just played together in France.

[Max Kellerman]

Would they not like to play together in the NBA before they're both born?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. They were born in the same hospital. I do know that. Did you know that?

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't know that.

[Rich Paul]

It's unbelievable. First of all, whoever I think this is true. I'm like 90% sure that this was true. Because if you do the timeline, I want to say Dale was on the Cavs. The Cavs were playing in Richfield at that time. And most players lived in, like, the Fairlawn you know, area. Bath. Fairlawn type of area. So that could be true, but we got to fact check that.

[Max Kellerman]

Are you avoiding talking about why LeBron and Steph wouldn't work in Golden State?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not avoiding it. Here's what I'm saying. I just want to be clear.

[Max Kellerman]

Call LeBron. Ask him if he'll go to Golden State.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not calling LeBron, Axon.

[Producer/Host]

That's.

[Rich Paul]

He's at practice. But what I will say is this, you know, Joe Lake is my guy. Yeah, Joe Lake is my guy. The Warriors. Unbelievable organization.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

Right. I have a great relationship and partnership with the Lakers organization. Okay. Now, if you and Bill Simmons want to play fantasy basketball, well, Bill started.

[Max Kellerman]

It, but he's right. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, but here's what I'm saying. Let's take both of those teams out of it, okay? And let's just talk about what it actually takes, okay? It don't take one player for anything. It don't matter. It don't take one player. Based upon what you have from a roster perspective, you have to evaluate that roster, and you have to build that both on and off the floor. Rich, talent and character, everything fits all.

[Max Kellerman]

The pieces, but you still fit. The only thing I could think of. I could think of one reason why it wouldn't happen. Like, who says no? Maybe Golden State says Jimmy Butler has more left in the tank than LeBron, so we don't want to give that piece up. On the other hand, rich, he's 36 years old. They're not doing anything this year. Putting LeBron and Steph together would be amazing for the fans, amazing for the league, and I actually think they would complement each other better.

[Rich Paul]

First of all, Draymond wrongfully accused me. I believe wrongfully accused me of stopping something before, which I never did anything like that.

[Max Kellerman]

What was it.

[Rich Paul]

When it was the whole. The trade talks before? About between whom? Between the people you're talking about right now.

[Max Kellerman]

LeBron and Stan Draymond, maybe. You're saying accused you.

[Rich Paul]

It went in the media couple years back. Yeah, I don't get into that. I don't play anything fan. If you ask any of my friends, does Rich do anything fantasy, they'll tell you no.

[Max Kellerman]

I was, you know, I wasn't thinking about Draymond. Watching two point forwards play on the same team with a point guard who's off ball a lot.

[Rich Paul]

This is wild.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, my God. The more I think about it, the more I need to see It. And the more I think about it, the more I think it actually makes basketball sense for both teams.

[Rich Paul]

Why don't we just play Duck Duck Goose?

[Max Kellerman]

Rich, you have not explained why it's not realistic.

[Rich Paul]

Because I don't like to get into that. It's like it's not going to happen. So why are we talking about things that's not going to happen?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't see why not. Okay, well, because, by the way, that was my. When I first saw Bill Simmons bring it up, I'm like, yeah, yeah. Ha, ha. It's fun. Yeah, it's fantasy basketball. After watching the game last night with the Lakers, the Lakers have to understand they're not going anywhere. Lakers aren't going anywhere. Sorry, Lakers fans, they're not going anywhere.

[Rich Paul]

And it's because you got me in trouble there, too.

[Max Kellerman]

They have clearly given the franchise to Luka. This is a guy who refuses to pay to play defense. It is so LeBron and Luka aren't winning.

[Rich Paul]

Gave the franchise to anybody. They acquired a. They acquired a very young, talented player. No question that they can build a team around. So build the future.

[Max Kellerman]

Great. So build one. Start by adding Jimmy Butler to the mix. Jimmy Butler?

[Rich Paul]

Luka, how you know Jimmy Butler wants to go somewhere?

[Max Kellerman]

That's the case.

[Rich Paul]

You can't just make Jimmy Butler wants to go somewhere call Jimmy Butler. I don't know if I have Jimmy Butler's correct number.

[Max Kellerman]

Maybe I do. I don't know. I have to check.

[Rich Paul]

But I'm sure he's. I mean, they play Charlotte tonight. Listen, I'm not doing any of that. You and Bill can play fantasy basketball.

[Max Kellerman]

Bill, let's play fantasy basketball. In this case, it happens to be a great idea. Would you admit it's a great idea?

[Rich Paul]

We can. You can do that about.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, let me ask. Does it make basketball sense for both teams?

[Rich Paul]

I believe anytime you're placing LeBron James on any team, it makes basketball sense.

[Max Kellerman]

And does it make basketball sense for Jimmy Butler instead of LeBron to play on the Lakers since he brings defense?

[Rich Paul]

I think Jimmy Butler plays basketball the right way to where Jimmy Butler fits on any team. Right now, I like him on the.

[Max Kellerman]

Golden State warriors, but particularly well on a team that needs defensive help on the perimeter.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not starting my 2026 off in a fantasy world. I wrote down.

[Max Kellerman]

I'll take that as a check. That's two checks. Like you said with Ben Simmons, I.

[Rich Paul]

Wrote down what I want my 2026 to be directed towards. And it's not anything fantasy.

[Max Kellerman]

Who says no to that trade. Golden State or la.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. I don't own either team.

[Max Kellerman]

I would say Golden State says. If either says no, I think it would be Golden State, but. Because Butler's five years younger, but. All right, listen real quick, because we've been going today, college football tonight, and it happens to feature a team that you're fairly interested in.

[Rich Paul]

I'm interested in both teams.

[Max Kellerman]

Are you?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but one is my team.

[Max Kellerman]

One is your team. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Ohio State. Ohio. The Ohio State University wins tonight, right?

[Rich Paul]

The Ohio State Buckeyes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Number one. They win tonight.

[Rich Paul]

We don't go. Listen, you don't go into any game underestimating anybody. First of all, Miami has a great defense and you saw what happened to Texas A and M. Ohio State has.

[Max Kellerman]

A lot of talent, man. They got a lot of talent.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, Ohio State has a great defense, too. But yet. And still, if I'm.

[Max Kellerman]

Ohio State's got guys coming out at the draft, in the draft, at linebacker and at wideout who are going to go high up, who are in, who may not be the best player at their position.

[Rich Paul]

And you would have them at quarterback if he was eligible to come out.

[Max Kellerman]

They got a lot.

[Rich Paul]

But here's what I'm saying on the team.

[Max Kellerman]

Might not be the best player on the team.

[Rich Paul]

If I'm the University of Miami. I'm putting that tape on from 2002.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

That they all felt like that should have been theirs.

[Max Kellerman]

I took Ohio State to win that year.

[Rich Paul]

So did I. But I'm putting that tape for extra. Extra. You know, just. I think they gonna come out well coached. I think it's gonna be a good game. But I do think we win from the Buckeyes. Don't punish me. Everybody know I'm a Buckeye fan.

[Max Kellerman]

But I do like Ohio State, Winston.

[Rich Paul]

I do like Miami's defense, though, man. I do like Miami's defense. It's not gonna be. It's not gonna be a cakewalk for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

I think Ohio State wins, too.

[Rich Paul]

Okay.

[Max Kellerman]

And then, I mean, like, listen, we've been going at it. You have any New Year's resolutions?

[Rich Paul]

I don't know about resolutions, but again, yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, you resolved to be more positive and. Well, I don't resolve that, by the way, happiness. And you're gonna get tarred by what I say. Apparently, they're all gonna associate what I say.

[Rich Paul]

They always do. You got me in the first ever show. We did. You asked me a question. I answered it. I thought I answered it very truthfully. I hope People don't want me to get up here and be just.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, you gotta be honest.

[Rich Paul]

I don't know. Yeah, I gotta be honest.

[Max Kellerman]

Gotta keep it. People say keep it. I keep it 90. 100 is a little much. You gotta give yourself a little wiggle room. You keep it 90.

[Rich Paul]

As you know, there's certain things I'm gonna say, and in most cases, I'm gonna give 90. I'm giving 90.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm giving 90.

[Rich Paul]

But there's gonna be some.

[Max Kellerman]

Keep in mind.

[Rich Paul]

I can't give kids.

[Max Kellerman]

Keep it 90, don't keep it a buck, it's too much.

[Rich Paul]

I want to, you know, happiness, true happiness. Got to keep that in the forefront. I'm working on my leadership skills, thoughtfulness. I wrote them down.

[Max Kellerman]

You? More than one? How many? Just do one.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, no, I'm just saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Can I tell you my new.

[Rich Paul]

I do want to try to travel more for me this year.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not gonna have time to do that.

[Rich Paul]

I know. I mean, I do wanna go to. At least. I wanna take two trips if I can. I don't travel that much. Contrary to what people may think. I don't travel that much. Cause I just love to work. I don't really, but I need to.

[Max Kellerman]

Which I figured out I've broken the code of New Year's resolutions. I, like, figured it out this year, finally.

[Rich Paul]

What is it?

[Max Kellerman]

Well, you know how like, people be like, oh, I'm gonna lose weight this year. And then at the end of the year, they didn't do it. And then you feel bad.

[Rich Paul]

You told me this already.

[Max Kellerman]

So what am I doing?

[Rich Paul]

You're telling me I'm not gonna lose weight?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I wanna add to my gut. I'm gonna add to my gut.

[Rich Paul]

So that way, if you see your gut there at the end of the year.

[Max Kellerman]

So at the end of the year, if I'm a little fatter.

[Rich Paul]

But what happens if you lose a little bit of your gut?

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so I didn't get my New Year's resolution, but I'm in shape. It's win, win, man. It's hedging a bet. It's smart.

[Rich Paul]

I think you're still sick.

[Max Kellerman]

This is what I. This is what I suggest to everybody listening.

[Rich Paul]

You need to get some beekeeper's naturals.

[Max Kellerman]

Hedge your bet with the New Year's resolution fair.

[Rich Paul]

See, what are you gonna eat?

[Max Kellerman]

What am I gonna eat?

[Rich Paul]

Would you like to come over for New Year's? Yeah. I mean, Ohio State's planned. Get a little Mr. Chow. Yeah, maybe I Put some games on tonight.

[Max Kellerman]

I was gonna lay low tonight anyway. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You drink champagne?

[Max Kellerman]

I do.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I have some.

[Max Kellerman]

There it is.

[Rich Paul]

Look at that. Yeah. Could do that. Easy.

[Max Kellerman]

Little game over. Game over after game over.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, a little game. You know what we should do? We should play golf together.

[Max Kellerman]

I've never played golf in my life.

[Rich Paul]

I tell you one thing, that's a game I love. And I'm getting better.

[Max Kellerman]

Teddy Atlas has a great line about golf. He said where he's from, they swung the golf clubs overhead.

[Rich Paul]

I'll tell you this. If you ever. Not that you ever want to.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

If you ever want to buy me anything.

[Max Kellerman]

Golf.

[Rich Paul]

Don't make it fancy. Golf balls, a club cover, towel. It could be. Just keep it very simple.

[Max Kellerman]

Done. Done. It is so hard to get gifts for people who've gotten to the top because they get everything they want themselves. Perfect. Rich ghost.

[Rich Paul]

Don't put me in that, please.

[Max Kellerman]

Remember. Remember to the top. Remind me of that.

[Rich Paul]

I got a long way to go, brother. I'm not at no top. I got a long way to go, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Derek Jeter. Derek Jeter. Hey, what do you want, Rich, that you don't already have? You want your sixth ring? You're focused on the next ring.

[Rich Paul]

I want my tenth ring.

[Max Kellerman]

Tenth? Don't believe that. Time is money. Money is time. You stay focused, you look up and your money is fine. That's why I quote Damian Lynn sometimes.

[Rich Paul]

I send Dame is. I send Dame bars.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Cause I respect his craft.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Does he use it? No, he don't need to use. I'm just.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you're just like.

[Rich Paul]

I can't put it. You know, I just, you know. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Big fight fan. Dame Lillard, too.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

I like Dame Lillard for sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul, please.

[Rich Paul]

Happy New Year's.

[Max Kellerman]

Happy New Year.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Happy New Year.

[Rich Paul]

See you guys on Friday.

[Max Kellerman]

You want to ask him please to subscribe? I said please. Oh, you did? Yeah, just now.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, you said please that time.

[Max Kellerman]

I said please. I was about to say subscribe.

[Rich Paul]

I'm proud of you, Max. Already. 2026 is going to be a great day. Look at that.

[Max Kellerman]

We don't coachable. All right, so I'll see you later on.

[Rich Paul]

See you later on. Yeah. Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

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