Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: The Nuggets’ Future Without Jokic, Loving the Game, and a LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade?

Date: December 31, 2025
Host: The Ringer
Podcast Hosts: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging and candid episode, sports media veteran Max Kellerman and NBA super-agent Rich Paul dig deep into several of the biggest storylines shaping basketball today. Key topics include the Denver Nuggets’ future after Nikola Jokic’s injury, what it really means to “love the game,” the psychology of player success and burnout, the underrated value of character/role players, and an extended debate about the idea of a LeBron James–Jimmy Butler trade (initially floated by Bill Simmons). The episode is packed with hard-earned insights, sharp banter, reflections on NBA culture, and generous helpings of “barbershop talk” about GOAT debates and team building.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Takes the Last Shot: MJ or LeBron?

[00:38–05:32]

• Rich Paul: Triples down on preferring Michael Jordan to take the last shot, but wants LeBron James to initiate the play and make the decision.
  • “Who do I want to take the last shot? It's Michael Jeffrey Jordan, born February 17, 1963... now who do I want to make the play? It's LeBron Ramon James, born December 30, 1984.” (Rich Paul, 01:47)
• Max and Rich stress authenticity and not being “yes men” in their convos.
• Max Kellerman: Agrees LeBron is the best “point guard” for his all-time team, but would have MJ with the ball in crunch time.
  • “On my all time team, I'll take LeBron James at the point, MJ at the two...” (Max Kellerman, 03:52)
• They discuss how “barbershop talk” and GOAT debates risk disrespecting the pioneers of the game and remind listeners of the difference between “better” (today’s athletes) and “greater” (historic achievement).

2. Jokic’s Injury & Nuggets Future (Draft Implications)

[06:55–13:51]

• Jokic’s Knee Injury: Initially feared catastrophic, but now determined to sideline him only 4 weeks.
• Rich Paul: Discusses potential silver lining—if Jokic were out longer, Nuggets could assess the rest of the roster more deeply and possibly get a strong draft pick in a loaded class.
  • “When things happen, like someone at the level of Jokic gets injured, you have to start to see what your other guys can do. It allows you to evaluate... ” (Rich Paul, 08:40)
• Draft talk: High-character, low-ego, high-IQ role players (e.g., Isaiah Harwell) are priority to fit around stars like Jokic and Murray.

3. The Underrated Value of Sacrifice & Role Players

[11:05–15:46]

• Aaron Gordon’s journey: From “franchise guy” in Orlando to thriving as a role player in Denver.
• Max Kellerman: Parallels with Andre Iguodala accepting a smaller role on Golden State and Michael Thompson backing up Kareem for the Lakers.
  • “That kind of move is so underrated. That’s the difference between a good team for a year or two and a real dynasty.” (Max Kellerman, 13:27)
• Rich Paul: Emphasizes that embracing a role is crucial for NBA career longevity.

4. “Loving the Game” vs. “What the Game Brings You”

[23:03–35:17]

• Extended discussion on why some talented players like Cam Reddish and Ben Simmons don’t reach their potential.
  • “Either you love what the game brings you, or you love the game.” (Rich Paul, 23:03)
• Max Kellerman: Argues that for the greats (Jeter, LeBron, Lillard), the “mountain” is always the next championship, not just reaching the league.
  • “Derek Jeter...the one thing he didn’t have? A sixth ring.” (Max Kellerman, 29:44)
• The pair debate whose perspective should matter most: teams/fans wanting hunger for greatness, or respecting athletes’ own definitions of success.

5. Burnout, Circumstance, and NBA Careers

[22:34–32:25]

• Cam Reddish and Ben Simmons serve as case studies for how mental fatigue, confidence, and “circumstance” (fit, opportunity, team changes) can derail promising careers.
• For Simmons: achieving all milestones quickly can lead to a lack of further “hunger.”
• Rich Paul: “Some guys get there and be like, okay, good, I got up here. Now I’m gonna go back down. Some guys get there and ... now I want to go higher. And that’s the difference.” (Rich Paul, 23:39)
• Also delves into the pressures of high draft picks and varying definitions of legacy.

6. Building Culture: Superstar Example & Role Clarity

[14:40–19:01, 35:36–44:49]

• Discuss how even franchise stars must “embrace their role,” play defense, set examples (e.g., LeBron when AD challenged him on defense).

• Luka Doncic Discussion: Criticized for not playing defense or buying all the way in; Max expresses frustration at "James Harden 2.0" aspects.

• International players have fewer “baggage” layers—less home pressure than U.S. stars.

• Rich Paul: Advises against superstars playing in their hometowns—too many distractions and pressures.

  • “If you a role guy, you could play at home, fine, play at home. If you a marquee guy, don't play at home.” (Rich Paul, 40:21)
  • “...everything is brought with me. My high school stuff, my muni league stuff. It's a mess. It's just so much. This is why international players actually have it better.” (Rich Paul, 43:30)

7. LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade Debate (“Fantasy Basketball”)

[46:38–54:09]

• Bill Simmons’ Idea: Proposes a LeBron-for-Butler swap (potentially to see LeBron with Steph in Golden State).
  • Max Kellerman: Initially dismissive, but then becomes convinced it makes basketball and narrative sense for both Lakers and Warriors.
    • “...the more I think about it, the more sense it makes.” (Max Kellerman, 50:39)
  • Rich Paul: Stays coy and slightly exasperated, reminding Max this is “fantasy” and not realistic, but admits any team would fit LeBron, any team would want Jimmy.
    • “I think Jimmy Butler plays basketball the right way to where Jimmy Butler fits on any team. Right now, I like him on the Golden State warriors.” (Rich Paul, 54:27)
• Playful back-and-forth about “fan perspective” vs. real NBA decision-making.
• Max on Lakers’ direction: “Lakers have to understand they’re not going anywhere...they’ve clearly given the franchise to Luka.” (Max Kellerman, 52:58)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On star player mindset:
  • “Everything that Ben wanted to happen for Ben happened for Ben. He was the number one pick...He got the max contract. In Cam's case, one...” – Rich Paul (22:34)
• On loving the game:
  • “Not everyone loves the game. They love the money.” – Rich Paul (34:05)
• On NBA role acceptance:
  • “The sooner you learn the want to embrace a role, that's the very beginning of your long term career. Guys that come in and don't embrace a role, short career.” – Rich Paul (14:19)
• On burnout and expectations:
  • “If you’re a lottery pick, two things could happen...the GM that drafted you—they’re going to want to invest in you. Some guy's talent and production outlasts the gm.” – Rich Paul (26:55)
• On LeBron & Steph trade fantasy:
  • “Explain to me why that should be fantasy.” – Max Kellerman (49:17)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Debating MJ vs LeBron as Closer: [00:38–05:32]
• Jokic Injury & Denver’s Future: [06:55–13:51]
• Role Players: Gordon and Iguodala: [13:05–15:46]
• The Love of the Game, Simmons/Reddish: [23:03–35:17]
• The Pressure of Playing at Home: [39:01–44:49]
• LeBron–Jimmy Butler Trade Fantasy Debate: [46:38–54:09]
• College Football & New Year’s Resolutions: [55:26–61:49]

Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode is unmistakably candid, thoughtful, and at times, playful—balancing deep basketball wisdom with the easy chemistry of two insiders who don’t pull punches. Rich Paul consistently grounds the conversation in the day-to-day realities of NBA life, while Max Kellerman presses for fan- and team-centric viewpoints, especially around legacy, hunger, and “what if” scenarios.

New Year’s takeaway:
Rich Paul emphasizes pursuing genuine happiness, thoughtfulness, and self-improvement—skills as relevant to podcast listeners as they are to rising NBA stars.

This summary covers all critical content while maintaining the episode’s conversational, insightful, and sometimes irreverent tone. All quoted attributions and timestamps are verified from the transcript.