The Truth About the Youth, MLB Spending, and CFP Reaction

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul

Episode: The Truth About the Youth, MLB Spending, and CFP Reaction
Date: January 21, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

In this lively, wide-ranging episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul tackle “the truth about the youth” in sports, break down Major League Baseball’s spending controversies, and give their reactions to recent developments in college football. The conversation moves from personal anecdotes and sports industry insights to deeper discussions on player development, financial incentives, and the evolving nature of collegiate and professional sports. Both hosts bring humor, candor, and passion to major themes shaping athletic culture.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. “The Truth About the Youth” – Issues in Youth Sports

[06:54–29:49]

• Rich Paul’s concern for youth in sports:

  • Rich reflects on his personal experiences in youth basketball, describing the excitement and visibility of AAU tournaments in his era versus what he sees today. He emphasizes his desire to "impact the youth in a major way" as part of his legacy.

    “I really think this is my legacy. This is gonna be my give back. I have to figure out how to impact the youth in a major way. Because our game is being affected by things that are happening in youth sports.” – Rich Paul [07:10]

• Development vs. Monetization:

  • Max and Rich discuss how many talented athletes bypass strong foundational coaching for personal gain or the influence of handlers, leading to a lack of long-term development and difficulties adapting to team roles later (in college or NBA).

    “People choose fiscal over fundamental.” – Rich Paul [15:25]
    “You're talking about how talented young players get to be disappointing NBA players... once you get there, you’re not equipped to play a role because you’ve always been the star.” – Max Kellerman [13:27]

• Advisors’ Motivations & Structural Issues:

  • The hosts dissect the growing influence of handlers (“advisors”) whose own interests may not align with those of the athlete, creating trust and incentive dilemmas.

    “The kid himself has to look at that advisor and wonder what their motivation really is.” – Max Kellerman [17:28]

• Short-term vs. Long-term Incentives:

  • Max introduces the “tragedy of the commons” thought experiment to explain how short-term gains are prioritized over long-term development, connecting this idea to many youth sports pitfalls.
  • Rich uses Tyrese Maxey as an example of patience and long-term value:

    “Tyrese Maxey is one of the best examples of this... you wait and you do a redraft. If you had to do a redraft today, I imagine he’s probably top three.” – Rich Paul [24:13]

• The importance of "fit" over draft position:

  • Both discuss how being in the right situation (“fit over pick”) far outweighs being picked as high as possible, referencing historic NBA draft outcomes.

Notable Quotes & Moments:

• “People choose fiscal over fundamental... There's a hoarding of that talent. Now, it's a coin toss, because I know some guys that are mentors... they do a hell of a job. But a lot of times, it's about, ‘Where is the money?’” – Rich Paul [15:25]
• “The green room celebration gets you nothing. Tomorrow, you become one of 450.” – Rich Paul [21:12]
• “Usually people will act in their short-term interest.” – Max Kellerman [21:03]

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2. NBA Trades, Player Development, & the Jonathan Kuminga Situation

[28:49–32:51]

• Discussion on why some young, talented NBA players lack trade value despite raw ability, using Jonathan Kuminga as a case study.
• Rich explains how trade markets function and emphasizes that “if you can think the game, you can play the game anywhere.”
• The hosts agree that patience, intelligence, and adaptability matter more than just skills for both team construction and individual success.

Notable Quote:

“There’s a difference between a must-have guy and a guy I would take.” – Rich Paul [28:49]

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3. Major League Baseball Spending & The Push for a Salary Cap

[34:06–46:05]

• Dodgers’ Big Spending and Salary Cap Backlash:

  • Max dissects MLB owners' “rage” over the Dodgers–Kyle Tucker deal, contending that the clamor for a salary cap is about keeping profits high for small-market owners, not competitive balance.

    “A salary cap equals small market owners telling the big market owners, ‘We need money to compete with you’... Both of them go to the players. That’s what a cap is.” – Max Kellerman [34:26]

  • Rich and Max elaborate on how sports franchises have become “the vanity toy of the uber wealthy,” with team valuation appreciating wildly regardless of salary spending.

• Revenue Sharing vs. Hard Cap:

  • Max argues in favor of revenue sharing to ensure both competition and owner profitability without restricting player pay.

• Players’ Stake in Franchise Value:

  • Both lament that players do not participate in the value appreciation of the teams, highlighting the outsized profits and rising team valuations (e.g., the Clippers sale, Bulls’ historical growth).

    “Players don’t participate in the rise in equity of the team.” – Rich Paul [43:39]

Notable Quotes & Exchange:

• “If you need not only for the equity in your team to increase every year... you are not rich enough to own a baseball team.” – Max Kellerman [36:55]
• “They only say [‘players make enough money’] about athletes.” – Rich Paul [44:32]

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4. College Football Playoff Reaction & Changing Power Dynamics

[46:06–51:05]

• Indiana beats Miami—Conference Power Shifts:

  • Max notes the rise of the Big Ten and the possible end of SEC dominance.
  • Rich highlights the cultural significance of Miami (“the U”) and the importance of Florida programs in college football’s appeal.

• Appreciation for Legends:

  • A tangent on respecting legends like Michael Irvin and Charles Barkley, as Rich laments a lack of appreciation for sports greats.

    “We are too disrespectful to our legends. We have to stop that.” – Rich Paul [49:12]

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5. NIL, Player Transfers, and Calls for Contractual Reform in College Sports

[51:05–56:24]

• Duke Suing QB Darian Mensah:
  • The hosts analyze Duke’s lawsuit against their quarterback, opening a debate on enforceability of player commitments in the NIL era.
  • Rich argues for actual contracts for student-athletes: durations, guarantees, and even potential buyouts if a player wishes to transfer.

    “Now it should be called a professional student athlete because they're being paid.” – Rich Paul [55:15]

  • Max raises legal and logistical difficulties (“Can you really rope a kid into attending a university for X number of years?”), but both agree the current system is unsustainable.

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6. Lakers, Front Office Dynamics, and Media Narratives

[56:24–65:03]

• Buss Family, Lakers Sale, and “Too Much Power” Narratives:

  • The duo discusses Baxter Holmes’ article on the Buss family’s infighting and the accusation that Klutch Sports or LeBron had “too much power” in Lakers operations.
  • Rich dismisses media speculation and champions the positive partnership and championship results:

    “I’m appreciative of, you know, what I would say was the last seven, eight years or whatever it was. You know, it was great and you won.” – Rich Paul [63:16]

• KCP and LeBron’s Move to LA:

  • Max recalls observing Klutch’s growing influence in LA, but both ultimately credit the collaboration for delivering a championship to the Lakers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Fit over pick... There’s this thing called a redraft.” – Rich Paul [24:26]
• “The Dodgers are also smarter than the other teams. And the other teams are saying, ‘Not fair. You're smarter than us and you have a bigger bankroll.’ And my answer... would be, get smarter.” – Max Kellerman [45:01]
• “They only say [‘athletes make enough’] about athletes. You don’t say that about the owners.” – Rich Paul [44:32]
• “We are too disrespectful to our legends. We have to stop that.” – Rich Paul [49:12]
• “Appreciate things. Why does that have to be such a hard thing to do? Just appreciate it.” – Rich Paul [65:03]

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Important Timestamps

• 06:54 – Conversation turns to youth sports and player development.
• 15:25 – "Fiscal over fundamental" and monetization of youth athletes.
• 21:12 – Draft “green room” celebrations and real career outcomes.
• 24:13–26:28 – Tyrese Maxey and playing the long game.
• 28:49–32:51 – NBA trade value case study (Kuminga) and development.
• 34:06 – MLB salary cap debate and franchise economics.
• 43:39 – Players and the lack of participation in team equity growth.
• 46:06 – College football – Big Ten vs. SEC narratives.
• 49:12 – Respecting sports legends.
• 51:05–56:24 – NIL deals, player transfers, and contractual reform in college sports.
• 56:24–65:03 – Lakers, Buss family dynamics, and the real story behind player/agent power.

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Original Tone and Language

Rich and Max keep the conversation authentic, conversational, occasionally sarcastic, and always deeply entrenched in the realities of sports and business. Their mutual respect shines through, as do their playfulness and willingness to challenge each other and the status quo.

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Conclusion

The episode blends insightful analysis with industry anecdotes, calling out uncomfortable truths about sports money, power, and development – while also delivering joy and celebration for the history-makers in the professions they love.

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For listeners and non-listeners alike, this summary provides a thorough snapshot of the episode’s rich, candid, and timely discussions.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

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[Rich Paul]

Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You look very lax today. What's going on?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I'm traveling right after this, so I go right from here to the airport.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, your boxing stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Zufa Boxing is launching.

[Rich Paul]

Are you doing the. Are you doing the fight in New York?

[Max Kellerman]

No, no. I'm hosting, though, the Ring Magazine awards in New York for like 2025 fighter of the Year. You know, the year end awards for. For Ring magazine. I'm hosting those. I mean, we're in January, but we're looking back at 2025.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

In New York the following week. Oh, and then going back to Vegas because our second show in Zoo for boxing is that same. Is that same weekend.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, for some reason, I thought she was gonna be at the fight.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I thought so too. But the schedule.

[Rich Paul]

I may go thinking about it.

[Max Kellerman]

To Te' O and Shakur.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. You think it'd be a good fight.

[Max Kellerman]

To go to Te' O and Shakur is the kind of fight, like at the end of an era, those two dudes usually fight when they're past their prime because those two guys beat everyone else. It's that type of fight. Oh, it's just happening in their 20s like it used to in the old days.

[Rich Paul]

Got it. So that's a good thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Real good. But it's not a slugfest. It's a chess match.

[Rich Paul]

Got it.

[Max Kellerman]

Super fast, great defense, sharp shooting, that type of stuff.

[Rich Paul]

You ever been to last night? Me and Dean went to Matu last night. You ever been there before?

[Podcast Host]

No.

[Rich Paul]

It's pretty good.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Two locations. One in Brentwood and one in Beverly Hills. It's actually. But they have this thing where you have to sit if you want this Philly steak. You have to set the bar. You can only get it at the bar.

[Max Kellerman]

They did this. There's a spot in New York like that too, that has a crazy, like, it's au poivre sauce on a burger, though.

[Rich Paul]

What is that?

[Max Kellerman]

Au poivre. Like peppercorn on a burger. But you can only get it if you sit at the bar. So, like, people get. They make reservations, they go and they're sitting there, they want the burger they heard about. Can't get it. You gotta sit at the bar. What is that?

[Rich Paul]

Are you a restaurant guy?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, this is the thing I love. Like, on Instagram or wherever. I'm a foodie who's not a foodie, who doesn't like. Who don't want to eat food.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I'm a.

[Max Kellerman]

What you're saying is you're rich and you can. You can eat whatever you want. Not you're rich. I mean, you have money and can eat what you want.

[Rich Paul]

Here's how I become. I become a foodie, right? I was not a foodie because I didn't really eat a lot. Now as I've gotten older, I definitely eat more.

[Max Kellerman]

I eat so much, I try to just have to control it.

[Rich Paul]

But I also am like a creature of habit. I eat at the same spots sometimes, too. I go where the service is best. Like South Beverly Grill on a bar. Service through the roof off the church.

[Max Kellerman]

Just want to be comfortable.

[Rich Paul]

Leora service off the charts. You know, Like, I go to where the service is great. You ever been to Mother Wolf?

[Max Kellerman]

I don't think so.

[Rich Paul]

I have to take you there.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

I'm in playlist.

[Max Kellerman]

You would love the I'm in.

[Rich Paul]

That'd be a great place to go.

[Max Kellerman]

My daughter and I, since we've been back in la, when we first got here, we're gonna try a different spot every time. And then we tried probably 20, 25 spots. Got our little collection of spots we go to. And now. Yeah. Creature of habit.

[Rich Paul]

Who makes those sweatpants?

[Max Kellerman]

You wanna know? You wanna know?

[Rich Paul]

No, seriously.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, these are Gap sweatpants. But why are we giving them free pub?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not giving them free pub. I was just asking because you said you were traveling. Yeah, I think there's a thing where you can travel in style but comfortable.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But not overly priced, Right? Right.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that's.

[Rich Paul]

So when you travel, it's like, I have on a very me. I'm in clutch athletics when I travel. Especially the new zip up we made. It's so comfortable.

[Max Kellerman]

So where's mine?

[Rich Paul]

You don't have it.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I got. I had one. You sent me one, like, about a year ago. Is that the same one?

[Rich Paul]

That's a big Issue. You should have it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

A year ago. No, this is the new stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

That's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

This is January, but the travel part is like, I want to be comfortable, but then have a nice carry on.

[Max Kellerman]

Uh huh. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Well, look, do you put any emphasis on the bag?

[Max Kellerman]

No, I want the bag. I want. Cause I never check bags. Right. Ever.

[Rich Paul]

I don't either, but I hate to check bags.

[Max Kellerman]

At any rate, I don't want like, I want a bag that doesn't look like anything. I don't want people looking at my bag. I got stuff in there. I don't. So I just carry a very nondescript bag.

[Rich Paul]

But you're Max Kellerman.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, that's the Gap sweatpants, but the Tom Ford shirt.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm just saying you're not getting away with an indiscreet bag as Max Kellerman.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Rich Paul]

It's like on White Men can't jump. When he robbed a store, it's like he knew exactly who it was. You can't. No. Right. But that's funny. No, I like to carry a decent bag. I don't like to check bags. I don't even like to check bags internationally.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't check bags ever.

[Rich Paul]

No. No. Did you catch any games last night? Anything?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah. Little Lakers. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Oh yeah. I watched that game. What else? I don't know. I watched the Lakers, I watched the Kings, I watched the Sixers.

[Max Kellerman]

I've been so busy with the boxing stuff.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

My kids. The whole thing, like the last has just been boom, boom, boom, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Non stop and the moving stuff.

[Max Kellerman]

And. And yeah. Still I'm almost. I'm almost done back.

[Rich Paul]

You're almost out of boxes.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm out of boxes. And now I got to put every. Now the house has to absorb everything, you know?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. All right.

[Rich Paul]

Wanna pay some bills?

[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

What's caught your eye lately?

[Max Kellerman]

Listen, you tell me because what you were telling me before the show, we got to call the top of the show the Truth about the Youth.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's something that I've been really.

[Max Kellerman]

I got something on my mind. I'll tell you after you tell me yours.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, but so when I told you about the Truth about the Youth, I just been seeing several things, but it's also been something that's been on my mind. I know it. And I really think this is my legacy. This is gonna be my give back. I have to figure out how to impact the youth in a major way. Because our game is being affected by things that are happening in youth sports. And when I grew up playing the game that I loved.

[Max Kellerman]

Basketball, we're talking about.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, basketball. Although I wasn't that great at it, at least as I got older, I thought I was better than what I actually was. But I still love to play. I still love the team camaraderie of it. I still love the coaching aspect of it. I still love the fact that I thought I could get better. Right. And so there were small wins within it. And funny story, I played against Damian Wilkins. Gerald Wilkins was playing on the Cavs. And my AAU team, I got this little AAU team and we were solid and we planned the Soul and Cage Classic. And the Soul and Cage Classic back then was the tournament of AAU. It was the tournament, right? So in 95, this is. I saw Kevin Garnett there on the Michigan All Stars. Lewis Bullock, you know, Dane Fife, they had Mo Taylor and Tractor Trailer. They had all these guys on one AAU team. And then you had the Ohio Stars that had Earl Boykins and all those guys, right? They were loaded. But anyway, my eighth grade team, we played at the middle school, and I think we won our first game. And the second game we had to play this other school. I forgot where they were from. I think they were like black and red. And there's this big kid on the team, and, man, he is going crazy. Well, it happened to be Damian Wilkins, right?

[Max Kellerman]

The Wilkins brothers, Gerald. Dominique. Seriously, right? Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

And when I see Dame, we talk about this all the time. He literally was like 6, 4, 13, but a guard, right? And I'm like, damn. Well, our tournament is over.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, the original Wemby for them, for those.

[Rich Paul]

My coaches wanted to protest. I'm like, man, I'm not with no protest. And we lost. We can't beat the guys, right? It is what it is, because I really wanted to Go see the other guys play. But anyway, what I remember about this is all of the university coaches, the biggest coaches in America, was at this tournament. I mean, I'm in the bathroom. There's Tarkanian, there's Boeheim, there's. I mean, every coach that was in America was there, obviously, Kevin Garnett, he got all these other teams.

[Max Kellerman]

So you head into that thinking you're gonna get noticed in all this?

[Rich Paul]

Well, no, I just was like, you know, I'm a fanatic. At the same time. I'm a historian of the game. I loved it, loved the coaches, but I just was like, wow, this is. This is the stage. And that's what I wanted to actually aspire to get to. I wanted to get to that level where you're being recruited by that level of coach. And when I look at youth sports today, I'm like, damn, even in high school, right? I don't know, man. It's like, I think, like, I see kids go around the great high school coaches.

[Max Kellerman]

Why do you think?

[Rich Paul]

Because they don't allow you to do what you want to do. They teach the game until, you know, Right? And they teach the game. And what happens is, like, I look at just when I was young, there was Coach Watson at Shaker, there was Cappelletti at Cleveland Heights, there was Quozniak at St. Joe's teachers, yeah, Eric Flannery, who was on the USA team, but the coach at St. Ed's, he was a young coach at St. Ed's when I was playing, and now he's still there. And then there's guys like Coach Drew also, who's at St. V. I know for a fact any one of those coaches, you're going to learn the game. They don't care about how talented you are. And I think in moments where you're skipping these steps and you're going around these coaches because you want to be able to do what you want to do what? Or the person that is handling you want to be able to manipulate the situation. And it could backfire on you. Now, it may not backfire on you during the high school years. Why?

[Max Kellerman]

Because you're talented.

[Rich Paul]

You have to be bigger, you're faster. And what happens is you get the accolades still. You still make the All American team. You still make. Maybe you make the Hoop Summit, Maybe you still get invited to the top 100 camp, or you still get invited to Colorado Springs to try out for the USA team. And so you still feel like, oh, I'm doing this the right way. And the worst part about all this is you're also still ranked. So in your mind, you're looking like shit. I'm ranked. Like, what is going to change? Like, what am I? I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm ranked. Until you get all the way to.

[Max Kellerman]

The NBA, Then shit hits the fan.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Or until you get to college. And that's. Cause here's the thing, you can go to college, right? And you still be on your same trajectory. And you just so happen to luck up and get to a school that actually allows you to play the same style of ball you've been playing. But if, for example, you get to a school and that changes now, that hurts your path. And I think it gives a shock value to the player. And now you start. And now, because you went on this path of no accountability, no development, no willingness to be coached and all these different things, and now you get here and what do you do? The first thing you do is you blame somebody else. You blame somebody else.

[Max Kellerman]

You're talking about how talented young players get to be disappointing NBA players. On the one hand, you make the NBA. That's amazing. On the other hand, once you get there, you're not equipped to play a role because you've always been the star. Because Steve Nash and David west both in the last couple days have come out like David west posted something on social media and Steve. Steve Nash had a quote about how essentially youth sports are broken. And Steve Nash pointed out that there's a kind of monetization of these kids. There's financial incentives that push them in the wrong direction as opposed to in Europe, where there isn't the same kind of thing. Players can develop better. Are they in the neighborhood of what you're talking about?

[Rich Paul]

Yes. I saw Steve's take and I saw David's take, and I thought they were too different takes, but obviously in the same room. What Steve was saying is somewhat quite right, or at least it used to be. But there's always some aspect of monetization, even internationally. But I understand what he's saying. He's saying, for the most part, these kids are playing and they have clubs and they're being developed and there is no university for them to go to. There really is kind of no ranking per se. You just. Over there, you find the diamond in the rough and they. And when you're playing on these teams, the coaches are allowed to coach you harder. Because culture doesn't say this is about money or this is about getting this fly car or, you know, you get What I'm saying, like, culture doesn't say that. So they're allowed to really play the game, and they're taught to play the game the right way. And you have to earn your way. You can't really skip the steps.

[Max Kellerman]

So what is it in this. So you're saying in this country, the financial incentives are such that the kid winds up, what, not being guided the right way?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think people choose fiscal over fundamental. And a lot of times, don't get me wrong, there's a physical component to everything that we do. It depends on how you're prioritizing it. Right. But there's also the fundamentals of. It all matters, whether it's basketball and the fundamentals of the habits that you need that you develop these. These habits in life. Right. There's discipline, there's habits, there's, you know, coachability and all these different things. What happens in America and what I've seen, obviously sitting in the seat that I sit in, is you identify the talent, and they're extremely talented. And then there's a hoarding of that talent. Now, it's a coin toss, because I know some guys that are. Some mentors that are managers and things like that, and they do a hell of a job.

[Max Kellerman]

When you say hoarding of the talent, you mean like. Like a guy, a handler or whatever you want to call him, identifies talent. And now he wants to hold onto that talent, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, because he's making an investment.

[Max Kellerman]

He's making an investment in this kid. He wants it to pay off. So he directs him to where the money is. The kid obviously needs money almost all the time. Right. Family needs money. So he directs him to where the money is. But in so doing, where the money is is not always the best developmental situation for the kid.

[Rich Paul]

That's where you have to be able to. To decipher. Right. Differentiate. Okay. Is this best for me and I'm getting the nourishment, or is this being painted as best for me, but really is best for them?

[Max Kellerman]

Who's them?

[Rich Paul]

Whoever is the handler. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. So the kid needs. Oh, okay. So what you're saying is the very person who is. Who should be looking out for the interests of the kid because he's advising the kid. He's basically an advisor.

[Rich Paul]

Advisor. Advisor, yes. Handling the Roman advice.

[Max Kellerman]

The problem is that the kid himself has to look at that advisor and wonder what their motivation really is.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Whereas ideally, the advisor. The kid wouldn't have to wonder about that. Cause the advisor is giving him advice based on the kid's. Best interest.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But instead he's giving advice based on the advisor's best interest.

[Rich Paul]

Again, it's a 50, 50 chance of that.

[Max Kellerman]

So he might or might not be. But the point is, the kid always has to wonder that.

[Rich Paul]

You always have to wonder that. But.

[Max Kellerman]

And the kid has an advisor. Cause what the hell does a kid know? Right?

[Rich Paul]

But sometimes the path can tell you that too. Like if you're going down the path and it's like that checks. That checks. Like basically you're not taking the easy way out. You're not routing or rerouting. You can tell like, okay, this kid's from D.C. out of all these schools over here, he goes to a school all the way over here that is in, I don't know, Iowa. Right. But you passed up all these, what we know as to be very high level legacy schools because you can't manipulate or control that situation. It comes with history, Right? Right. And there's been plenty of players that come through here. Now, where we tie it back into the NBA perspective is this is why when you look at a mock draft, and this is why I don't like mock drafts, because this is why I always say it's better to be to get the right fit than be the high pick. Because sometimes you could be the high pick and if you don't get the right fit, it could be detrimental to you.

[Max Kellerman]

What you're really talking about to me is like a larger issue of short term versus long term incentives, right? Like people are always gonna play the game. However the game is set up, the incentives will shape behavior. So, for example, so there's a famous thought experiment called the tragedy of the commons, right. In fact, I think the movie War Games with Matthew Broderick back in the day probably was based on this, but I don't remember. But the idea is there are these common grounds, right? And if you, me and 98 other people are around these common grounds and I'm not getting it exactly right. But this is the idea that you can harvest from these grounds wherever you need to eat, and it can go on if you just take your fair share, we all take our fair share. It's a utopia. It'll go on forever. Right? The problem is the way things are set up. I know, okay, if I take two times my share, I've doubled my lot, right? I've gotten 100% more than what I'm entitled to. I've only hurt my neighbor rich by 1% because instead of 99 things there and he gets one there's 98 and he gets one. It's almost the same thing. Not quite, but almost. The problem is you know the same thing that I know, that you can double your lot by taking one extra. And everyone knows the same thing. So because of the way the game is set up, everyone grabs as much as they can, as fast as they can, so they're not the odd man out. So the whole thing collapses. So what should be a utopia and go on forever where everyone gets what they need collapses immediately because of the way the incentives are set up. It's set up in such a way that you're. Or it demonstrates that short term incentive will almost always trump your long term incentive. It'll like. So, so yeah, if the money is there now, usually people reach for it, right?

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

So even if that situation is better in the long run. But this is the bird in the hand. This I got right now usually people will act in their short term interest.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but this goes back to. Again, this is why I never celebrate in the green room. Right, because the green room celebration gets you nothing. Because you know what happens tomorrow? You become one of 450. And the pick you were doesn't guarantee you anything. Like I was the number two pick. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm getting the max deal. You get what I'm saying?

[Max Kellerman]

You get a little more money up front.

[Rich Paul]

Usually that's it.

[Max Kellerman]

And now you're in a situation that puts you behind the eight ball.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but if I get a little more money up front in year one, two, three and four, whatever. But then I'm either out of the league by year 6 or 7 and. Or I'm getting 4% of a salary cap versus getting 25% of a salary cap in years 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, whatever it is, Those dreams and aspirations that you had, that want of having the fly flashy material things, all that goes out the window. And you know what hurts even more than anything? The people around you also had this expectation and aspiration and they've also went out and bought the big house or picked it out, et cetera. That letdown is more detrimental than anything.

[Max Kellerman]

What you're talking about requires a special kind of person, usually. So incentive shaped behavior. And usually people are incentivized by their short term interest. Some people have the patience or the wisdom or the common sense to say no, no, no, let me just wait and be patient and put myself in a better situation. That's not most people. It requires a certain kind of courage.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. The best example I have.

[Max Kellerman]

Because you got to give up what's right in your hands.

[Rich Paul]

Tyrese Maxey is one of the best examples of this. Tyrese Maxey was the 21st pick in his draft, right? And I remember I recruited him. They committed to us. It was Covid. We worked out. He worked out for five, maybe. I think the draft that year was in November, I want to say. And you know, he was very upset that these players was going in front of him and he had worked his ass off. I mean, five, six straight months, you know, two a days, not late, not complaining, nothing. And coming out, people were talking to me about, oh, it was three point percentage and things like that. And I'm watching, I watched the games and they didn't get to play the tournament. And so because of that, if he had been able to play the tournament, he would have went a lot higher. Which these are why these type of things happen. There's just fate. But anyway, so he goes and he's 21 and there's people that went in front of him that he thought he was better than. And it really bothered him. Not. Not from an entitled perspective.

[Max Kellerman]

He's competitive.

[Rich Paul]

More of a competitive perspective, right? And I was sitting there and I'm talking to him. I'm saying, listen, fit over pick. There's this thing called a redraft. And you wait and you do a redraft.

[Max Kellerman]

You had to.

[Rich Paul]

And if you had to do a redraft today, I imagine he's probably top three, two or three on the board.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I used to. You want to talk about being competitive and fit? J. Will, who I did a radio show with, with Keyshawn Johnson, competitive guy. It bothers him to this day that Yao Ming went one and he went two. He couldn't say because we did the show with Key, who was the number one overall draft pick. And Key used to give him shit all the time.

[Rich Paul]

Right, because he was number two. Right.

[Max Kellerman]

He's number two. But he's like, it's my luck that a seven foot five Chinese center came out in the same draft. But in addition to not going first, he went to a place that wasn't a fit. Chicago. And the triangle. That's not. That's not Jay Will's.

[Rich Paul]

No, he needs to boogie. J Will needs to boogie.

[Max Kellerman]

J. Will demonstrates both your points.

[Rich Paul]

Exactly. But in Tyrese's case, when you talk about the long game. Yesterday we just announced New Balance announced that he's getting a signature shoe. Now, I remember coming out, right, it was Covid. So shoe Companies were saying they don't have the money. Like, people wasn't buying shoes in Covid. They were. They were buying everything. But anyway, they were saying they don't have the budget. So he basically played for free, for nothing. And then he had the wherewithal to say, you know what, man? I want to do something different. And he decided to go with a different company. And at that company, he didn't make it about the money. He made about what the opportunity was going to be for him, how he would be treated. Right. And his pay was probably a lot smaller than what it probably could have been. And the company probably felt like it was favorable for where he was at right now, but he didn't complain. And then he worked and he worked and he performed. He performed. And yesterday a signature shoe deal is being announced. When you think about the long and you think about coming in and all those things, as well as all star starter, but all those things, that's the.

[Max Kellerman]

Long game, the tortoise and the hare.

[Rich Paul]

Right? Even from a max deal standpoint, this.

[Max Kellerman]

Actually leads to something I wanted to bring up because it leads into it perfectly. Mike Dunleavey had a quote on Jonathan Kaminga.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, I saw that. That was a. That was a bar.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm aware of that in terms of some of the trade demand that Kaminga has. I'm aware of that in terms of demands. When you make a demand, there needs to be a demand. I mean, Dunleavy is saying, here's our player. We'd love to get something for him if we could. If he's not working out, yeah, we can't get anything good for him. That's a very talented guy who went high up in the draft on a great team that's had a ton of success and has not been panned out for him. Maybe because of some of the stuff you just said. If you are developed in a way where you are the primary ball handler or the star, the scorer, and everything has to fit around you instead of you fitting into. And part of it is just how good you are. Right. Like LeBron was always gonna revolve around LeBron because of Magic Johnson. It was gonna revolve because they're that good. Jonathan Kaminga is not LeBron or Magic and was never gonna be LeBron or Magic no matter how he developed, because they're just better than him. But he is really talented. And maybe had he been developed the right way, like, even if LeBron or Magic wasn't good enough to become the primary ball handler, they developed properly in basketball, in terms of the iq, in terms of the. That they would have been able to fit in somewhere, whereas Jonathan Kaminga can't.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. I mean, look, not touching on the actual individual, but let's touch on the situation. When you think about trades, I think trades people don't understand there's two sides to trades. It really takes two to tangle. Right. Despite how you feel about the talent, it takes two to tangle. And then you have all the other things, the salaries and if, you know, like when a team is trading for a player, if they don't really need that player, they're going to ask you to attach. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Value. Take them. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe that's a draft pick, but the.

[Max Kellerman]

Player'S supposed to be the asset. You know, even if you have a player on a supermax deal, if he's Jokic, you're going to have to. If you're trading for Jokic, doesn't matter how big his contract is, you're going to throw more and more because he is the asset.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but here's the thing. There's two different types of players in trades. There's the player that you want or must have and there's the player that you would take. There's a difference between a must have guy and a guy I would take.

[Max Kellerman]

Basically what you're saying is the difference between the centerpiece of the trade and a throw in. And Kaminga right now is a. He's the dude. You want me to take him. I might need some more stuff if you want this thing that I have to make it work. Whereas if Kamingo were better, if he had a higher basketball IQ or however you want to say it, if there, there would be demand. If OG Anunoby was on the trade block right now, you wouldn't have to throw in anything. OG is kind of is also a talented young player who developed the right way and now there would be a thriving market for him if he was on the trade block. That is not Jonathan Kaminga.

[Rich Paul]

What I would say about trade markets and trade blocks is markets change. Markets change overnight. Right. And right now you have a lot of teams that are being extremely patient. They're being extremely patient. They're not being pressured by their owners to do anything per se. And when you're looking at, when you're looking at how to improve your team, again, we talked about this before. You're looking at timeline, right. You're looking at culture. Does this guy fit? You're looking at character. You're looking at, okay, the skill set and their Capabilities. And then I think the last thing is iq. And I tell all guys whether I represent them or not. If you can think the game, you can play the game anywhere. If you can think the game and you're highly skilled, that's a whole nother world.

[Max Kellerman]

And Kaminga, that's a whole other world. Kaminga has the raw stuff. He has the talent to be a major asset to a team. The fact that there's not a trade market for him, at least according to Mike Dunleavy, we'll see. Because, you know, but. But the fact, if that's a fact, it's not cause of the talent. So you have to look at other things. Why isn't. Why is it. And maybe the league looks at him and says he's not going to play the right way. That's why I'm saying. And maybe it ties into what you were saying.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. The other thing I would say is, again, in terms of. Just as you're evaluating a player, right, if you can think the game and your skill. Cause some players are skilled and they can think the game, but that don't mean they're ultra uber talented. Right. They don't have.

[Max Kellerman]

But if you got that too, and.

[Rich Paul]

You'Re skilled and you're uber talented, well, that becomes a whole nother stratosphere of things. And so again, I don't know enough about that situation. I haven't really inquired about it, but I just know about what's happening right now in our landscape and how teams are looking at these trades and how the public perception of what a trade looks like and how internally understanding what a team is looking for. And when you think of teams nowadays, hey, if I can make the play in, if I can make the play in, it gives us a shot, right? And then there's other components to it as well. You say the top four teams versus the actual, the eight that's set for the playoffs. That's one aspect. If we just need to make the play in, that's another aspect. Can we get one more home game for our gate? That's another aspect. There's so many different aspects to a team. Their positioning, what they're willing to do, what they're not willing to do. Are we going to look further out, two years out to see what free agents are there? There's. There's so many different things to think about, Max, when you're thinking about trades. And so that affects any market.

[Podcast Host]

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[Max Kellerman]

[e-mail] all right, I got a pet point I want to make on Major League Baseball. It was reported today that the owners in Major League Baseball are apparently enraged by the Kyle Tucker Dodgers deal. Just the Dodger and they're gonna push for a salary.

[Rich Paul]

We all knew that was coming.

[Max Kellerman]

They're push for a salary cap.

[Rich Paul]

We all knew that was coming.

[Max Kellerman]

Now I want to explain to everyone what a salary cap is. This is the only thing anytime you see salary cap in a sport, the owners will always dress it up. Competitive balance. I just want to be very clear. A salary cap has nothing to do with competitive balance. Nothing. Competitive balance can be achieved through a luxury tax. Right? This that the big market owners subsidize the small market owners. If the big market owners want to continue to spend lacob with the warriors, then at a certain point he's going to have to give so much money to subsidize the small market owners that he might think twice about spending more and you get competitive balance or else if he continues to spend and it pays the money. Now the small markets also have money to compete, okay and to remain profitable. That's not what a salary cap is. A salary cap is this. A salary cap equals the Small market owners, just remember this salary cap equals small market owners. Telling the big market owners, we need money to compete with you. The big market owners, like, the truth is, hold on. The equity in the team is going up because it's also a real estate deal. Your team is worth more and more every year, and you're in the black. You're making money. What is it you need? No, we need to be competitive with you. And we want to make a giant profit. Okay, don't look at us. We're done giving you money. Let's go get it from the players. So this is what a salary cap is. Small market owners go to the big market owners say, we want more money to compete with you. Big market owners look at the small market owners say, don't look at us. Both of them go to the players. That's what a cap is. And what they tell the players is, you will now subsidize the small market owners. That's the definition of a salary cap. So really, what's happening in baseball is small market owners are looking at the Dodgers and even a lot of big market owners and saying, the way you're playing this game doesn't leave us enough profit. And maybe small markets like, and we can't compete. Okay, I have two things to say about that rich One, the profit thing, okay? If you need not only for the equity in your team to increase every year, so much so that your investment's worth more and more, but you also want it to throw off dividends. You are not rich enough to own a baseball team or a major sports team, because we all know they're not just investments in a traditional sense. Major sports franchises and have become the vanity toy of the uber. Uber wealthy. That's what they are, let's face it, right? Like, if you had $100 billion, what would you do? Everyone listening to this, you're listening to a sports podcast would be like, well, first thing I do is I go buy my favorite team. Right?

[Rich Paul]

I go buy a team.

[Max Kellerman]

Of course, that's, like, better than any toy that any rich person could have playing a. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

But also, when you buy a team, your entire portfolio. Portfolio becomes enhanced by, you know, because.

[Max Kellerman]

It'S an appreciating asset.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

The business keeps growing.

[Rich Paul]

Not only that, and it's also everything else. It's the biggest red carpet you can roll out.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. In other words, it has all this.

[Rich Paul]

Who doesn't want to go to this? Who doesn't want to do that?

[Max Kellerman]

This extra value that you're talking about in Addition to that, the owners are like. And we want it to throw off an enormous dividend every year. Well, maybe the dividend won't be as big. No, no, no. We must have a salary cap. You are not rich enough to own a major franchise if that is your position. That's 1, 2. The idea of competitive balance, that every team should be have the exact same chance to compete every year is absurd on its face. It's absurd. If you live in New York City versus Kansas City and you want to go out to the theater in New York, you know you're going to Broadway, you can, you have that option in Kansas. You might go see dinner theater. There is a difference. On the other hand, if you want fresh air and wide open spaces, you might be able to afford a backyard in Kansas. You will not be able to do that in New York. There are trade offs wherever you live.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I tell you one thing. Yeah, I'm living in New York, I'm not living in Kansas.

[Max Kellerman]

Right, but that's your choice. But the point is that the idea.

[Rich Paul]

No offense to Kansas, I'm just saying I'm choosing to live in New York.

[Max Kellerman]

Me too. But the idea is that if your claim is every team should have the exact same chance to compete every year and there are 20 million, let's say Yankees fans and 2 million Royals fans, let's just to make the numbers round, what you're really saying is those 2 million Royals fans are entitled to the same product that the 20 million Yankees fans are entitled to. In other words, each Royals fan is worth 10 Yankees fans in terms of their experiences following their team. Their fandom is worth ten times as much. Ridiculous. Now the reason the revenue share model is good is because there should be some competitive balance. Kansas City teams should be able to compete if they have to be run smarter than the big market team. But if they're run smartly, they should be able to compete. They should have a dynasty. Even if they can swing it right. And be able to retain most of their players, that's a good thing. That can all be achieved with revenue sharing and super rich owners. Right? That is not a hard cap. So when I hear hard cap, and this isn't even favoring the Yankees now because Hal Steinbrenner is frankly not rich enough to own the Yankees, my opinion, he doesn't put as much of the revenue back into the team as other teams do. He's not even in the top 10 in terms of reinvesting revenue in the team. So this really favors the Dodgers right now. But I get kind of incensed when I hear these. Finally, let me say this, because I know I've been holding the mic for a while. A lot of it is also where you place your bet. So when the Seattle. I think it was the Pilots at the time that became the Mariners, if I'm getting that right. But Bud Selig's family, who became the commissioner of baseball, eventually his family bought the Seattle franchise, like a year or two before George Steinbrenner bought the Yankees. Okay. Because at the time, they're betting New York was a dying city. It was going to go bankrupt. It was horrible. No one wanted to live there. Seattle's up and coming. His family placed a bet on the city of Seattle. Steinbrenner placed a bet on the city of New York. Steinbrenner won that bet by a lot. So what did Bud Selig do when he became commissioner? He turned around and started crying with, like, the Monopoly man with his pockets turned inside out. Oh, we can't compete with the Yankees. We need a cap. Well, you just guessed wrong. You placed a bet. You were wrong. Steinbrenner was right. So he wins, you lose, and now you want him to subsidize you.

[Rich Paul]

So what happens to. First of all, do you think it actually goes through? And how does this affect. I think because I don't think. I don't think the Dodgers. I don't think the Dodgers. It's about money with the Dodgers. I think it's about. It's about mindset first. Yeah. And then the willingness to spend the money. But there. It's not like they're spending a bunch of money frivolously, you know?

[Max Kellerman]

Frivolously. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Did I say that right?

[Max Kellerman]

Frivolously. We're just talking fast.

[Rich Paul]

Frivolously. Yes. Fine. It's not like they're doing that. That they're picking the guy. That guy is. Is. Is performing on the biggest stage. And when you perform on the biggest stage, they're paying them now. They just happen to be paying them prior to them performing on the biggest stage. So they're making the bet, but the bet is actually made good based upon. Yeah. So I don't. I mean, look, salary cap, no salary cap. Here's what I do know, so we can move on. Yeah, here's what I do know. I do know that these are appreciating assets.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

In 1998, the Bulls were worth $250 million, I think, and Michael was making 36 or 38 million.

[Max Kellerman]

Was that 98 when he finally got paid. Was that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he got paid. He got paid. 96, 97. 98. Right. The last three years, last three, he made $100 million a little bit more.

[Max Kellerman]

Because he was making like 3 million before that.

[Rich Paul]

Now, in 2018, if you look at what the starting salary for a max player was, depending on your years of.

[Max Kellerman]

Service, 38 years ago, if you got.

[Rich Paul]

25 or 30 or 35% of the cap, depending on your years of service, I imagine that number was somewhere starting at 38. Right. But if you look at. If you look at the. And I could be a year or two off, but for the sake of. I don't have nothing in front of me. But if you look at the value of the team at that time, then it probably was 10x.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

If not more.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

And the point. But, but the point I'm making is the players don't participate in that, in.

[Max Kellerman]

The rise in equity of the team.

[Rich Paul]

So when situation happened with Donald Sterling, that happened. He benefited. He sold the team for X. I mean, he bought the team for X.

[Max Kellerman]

He sold it for 2 billion.

[Rich Paul]

He sold the team for Y. And at that time, people thought, oh, my God, two billion. We thought that was a crazy, crazy, crazy number.

[Max Kellerman]

And the Dodgers, then the lakers sell for 10.

[Rich Paul]

So there you go. So at the end of the day, you know, there's a lot of things that I think are beautiful about professional sports. That is obviously depreciation of teams is. Anytime something appreciates, that's always beautiful. But I do think there's a world where our players, people will say, well, they already make enough money. They only say that about athletes.

[Max Kellerman]

They don't say that about the owners.

[Rich Paul]

You don't say that about an experience.

[Max Kellerman]

Playing a child's game. He should be happy with what he gets.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you don't say that about. We see all these numbers come out where people are getting 60 and 70 and $80 million bonuses, not salaries. Your bonus is 80 million. So imagine if I'm in position, if I just hold this spot for five years and my average bonus is $50 million.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. You got a quarter billion. By the way, what you said about the Dodgers, it's both. It's the brains and the money. But what really people are reacting to, the other owners, whether they realize it or not, is not just the money that the. If the Dodgers were spending all this money and not being as successful. That's not the issue. The issue is the Dodgers are also smarter than the other teams. And the other teams are saying, not fair. You're smarter than us and you have a bigger bankroll. And my answer to the other owners would be, get smarter. You know, push. Like anyone could have hired Andrew Friedman. When Walters Group bought the Dodgers, the Dodgers hired Andrew Friedman. The Yankees could have hired him. The Red Sox could. Anyone could have hired him. Yes, the Dodgers went and found the smartest guy, and he put in position staff that were better than the other teams. And in addition to that, they're working with more banks, many teams.

[Rich Paul]

But see, and here's the thing.

[Max Kellerman]

The spurs are not a big glamorous organization. They're frequently competitive. Yes, they're smart.

[Rich Paul]

But the teams, I'm telling you, the teams that don't cut corners with their decision makers are successful.

[Max Kellerman]

Man, that's just deep front offices. You talk about that all the time.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, so?

[Max Kellerman]

So college football, we never got to react to the big game. You know what I think about Indiana beating Miami Rich. I'm reminded of my fourth favorite song. My playlist in my car is I drive the kids to school. Whatever. It's not my playlist of my favorite songs. Right. If we're not listening to what's out right now. Because I've heard those songs a billion times. It's all like my fourth favorite song that year off that album. Cause I haven't heard it as much, so it's not as played out to me. Right. So we could sit here and talk about Indiana and Signetti and the kind of turnaround and. Oh, my God. And we could do that.

[Rich Paul]

Everyone's done that.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. Where my mind goes is different places. Number one, Miami is a powerhouse again.

[Rich Paul]

Maybe.

[Max Kellerman]

I think college football is better when, you know the U is a thing.

[Rich Paul]

I agree. I think college football is better when all three Florida things are a thing.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes, all three.

[Rich Paul]

Florida State, Florida State and Miami. But the you happens to be the university of connectivity. Right. You connect with the youth. They were cool. They were always hip. They were always just, it's Miami. Everything about it is great. So I agree. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, that's a lot. And the other thing I'm thinking is, you know me, I'm like really interested in this idea that when public perception changes, but no one really talks about it. Right. The SEC was the conference. Like, they won the national title every year and were favored to do so. And a lot of that is Alabama and Saban. But the SEC was the conference. What's the conference now? Cause it's not the SEC anymore.

[Rich Paul]

It's the Big Ten. It's the Big Ten. You absolutely can.

[Max Kellerman]

Did that just happen. Can we now say that they won it again? Right. It's not Michigan or Ohio State. It's someone else. That we are now in the Big Ten era? I think so.

[Rich Paul]

Are we now in the Big Ten era? Yeah, I think the big.

[Max Kellerman]

Did it just happen, though?

[Rich Paul]

Was it.

[Max Kellerman]

Were we already in the Big Ten era or now it's.

[Rich Paul]

Big Ten has always been a very strong conference.

[Max Kellerman]

No doubt. But it's replaced the SEC as number one.

[Rich Paul]

Back to Miami right quick. Just. I'll miss this point. We got to leave Michael Irvin alone. Cause I've seen this thing about him wearing a thing on the sideline. Man, that is the playmaker. The man went to University of Miami. He's a legend. He's a Hall of Famer. If it was any other arena or environment. Okay, you make it have a point.

[Max Kellerman]

Because it appears biased.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, no. They're saying, I think it was parents or somebody saying that he shouldn't be able to be mic'd up on the sideline with the guy. But when you talking about Michael Irving even aware of this, on the sideline of a football game, there is no detriment to Michael Irving being on the sideline of a football game.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone stopped. I didn't even realize that that was an issue. Everyone stopped.

[Rich Paul]

But I just wanted to make that point because this is the problem. The problem is we are too disrespectful to our legends. We have to stop that.

[Max Kellerman]

And also, some guys just got it like that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And he's one of those guys.

[Max Kellerman]

Charles Barkley got it like that.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, it don't matter.

[Max Kellerman]

Marshawn lynch got it like that. There's some guys that could get away with stuff because it's who they are.

[Rich Paul]

But this is what we have to get back to. Let me explain something to you. If on my street On Edmonton, if Ms. Johnson, Ms. Marshall, Ms. Woody, Ms. Thompson, Aunt Cammie, if any of them ask me to do something, you're doing it, I'm doing it right. Period. That is what they earn.

[Podcast Host]

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[Max Kellerman]

[e-mail] I want to ask you about Duke suing Darian Mensah, their quarterback.

[Rich Paul]

Right, I saw that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Because this comes the kid out of the quarterback out of Washington who's now back in Seattle. I understand Duke's point here, at least on the surface, which is if someone signs a contract, it should be enforceable. It's a two way commitment. I get, I understand why a quarterback might want to leave for greener pastures, make more money, position themselves better, whatever it is. But I do also understand the point of view of the school saying we make plans based on commitments that we would be responsible for even if some circumstance changed. And so should you.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I think that we just gotta get serious. Okay. We have to get serious. We gotta go to contracts. You don't get the money.

[Max Kellerman]

But don't they have a contract?

[Rich Paul]

No, you don't have a contract. Because if we had a contract then players wouldn't be able to transfer the way they do. But what I'm saying is, in other.

[Max Kellerman]

Words, they're trying to interpret what they have with him as an enforceable contract.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. If you sign that nil deal, that seems to be.

[Max Kellerman]

They're asking the courts to interpret it.

[Rich Paul]

As those there needs to be. If you're being paid, there needs to be a contract. So if it's two years, if it's three years, you know, in basketball we have a team option versus a player option. They don't really have that in football. They just have a non guaranteed year, I guess or whatever the case may be. But we need because. Because here's why I say that what.

[Max Kellerman]

You'Re saying is you what they're asking the courts to enforce, they're probably wrong about it doesn't exist. But you're saying, correct me if I'm wrong, what should exist is the thing that Duke is trying to enforce or pretend to exist.

[Rich Paul]

If you're gonna sign here, if you're signing to Ohio State, we're signing you to X. Now you can go over this amount, right? This is the max amount you can sign for. So if you're a top, top player, this is a max amount you assign for. Well, I think every, I mean, you're gonna have to put a max because it could just get out of control. Okay, you don't want to make more money, fine, whatever. But again, you know, a max without it being a max, you know, a threshold you're not gonna go over. But you're signing a three year deal. So let's just say you sign a three year deal at 5 million a year, that's 15 million. Okay? So that's the deal you made.

[Max Kellerman]

You're here for three years.

[Rich Paul]

You're here for three years.

[Max Kellerman]

We owe you 15 million. We can't get out of it. And you're here for three years. You can't get out of it.

[Rich Paul]

If that contract, if you don't want to be here and another school wants you and they're willing to pay you, they got to buy stuff or trade us.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's going to be hard to enforce in the sense that you're saying, not that the player can void the contract and decide to not take the money, but they are obligated to attend university where they choose. You have to like, can you really rope a kid into attending university for X number of years if they choose not to.

[Rich Paul]

But here's the problem with that. You're basing off of academics versus sports, right? Okay, academically, that's one thing. We don't have anything to do with that. Because what's happening is once you put the money in play, the academics part of it kind of goes out the window because don't you have to be.

[Max Kellerman]

Enrolled in class and stuff?

[Rich Paul]

I know what the eligibles are of university. Actually, I don't because I didn't. I went to college for like two days. So I really don't know what the rules are from a university perspective. Nevertheless, I know what these rules are and I know what the business looks like. And if, because what happens is you can't play any other sport and do this, you can't get drafted by the Pittsburgh Steelers. They sign you to a three year deal and then after your first year you say, I want to go to the sports.

[Max Kellerman]

But this is the issue with amateurism or college, that don't exist. I agree, but they don't exist. The issue is to be enrolled in the college. Yeah, but take is the prerequisite. So you're saying divorce that from the. From the gang, from. Yes, if you said student.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, Student athlete. That was a thing. That's what the college thing was for. Student athletes. Now it should be called a professional student athlete because they're being paid.

[Max Kellerman]

Still a student, though. How are you going to force them to go where they don't want to go?

[Rich Paul]

But you're not a student in play. Okay, take your classes somewhere else then. This is.

[Max Kellerman]

But you still have to play for this team.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I don't care if you play for Ohio State and you took your classes at Akron. Ohio State.

[Max Kellerman]

So everyone's were on the ringer. But. So everyone's a ringer. Basically. I'm just. You want to legalize ringers?

[Rich Paul]

No, what I'm saying is we're teaching things the wrong way. You cannot do that. It's the biggest. We're causing ourselves their own detriment. You're causing yourself.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I hear what you're saying. It makes a lot of sense. I'm just saying it's tricky.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not saying it's politically political. Politically correct. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying in theory, we have to go to contract. If not, this is going to continue to be a problem. And when these guys get to the pros, you can't do this stuff. No other business. Okay, we got five minutes.

[Max Kellerman]

So Lakers beat the Nuggets. But actually what I want to talk about is this article Baxter Holmes had on the bus. Infighting. Did you see this?

[Rich Paul]

I saw some of it, of course.

[Max Kellerman]

I think I just saw the sale of the Lakers. How that. But let me give you my take on it because I was doing afternoon drive here in LA for years and all over the Lakers situation. It's sad to me in the sense that Dr. Jerry Buss, who, by the way, to me, the greatest owner by far, history of American team sports. Right. Ten titles under his watch. Ten, you know, and also trying to do it a certain way hard enough to win a championship. He did. Showtime. He blew. I think his dying wish was to use the Lakers to keep his family together. Right? That's what it seems to me. Because why give it to your family and put them all the kids and put them in charge of different things. Why not just sell the team and let everyone enjoy the money? Right? And the great irony to me about the Lakers is that Jeannie was in charge of basketball Operations and. Or, sorry. Mitch and Jim were in charge of basketball operations and Jeannie is running the business. Right. Think about when they made the deal for Chris Paul. Mitch and Jim did a great job and they traded Powell and Lamar for Chris Paul.

[Rich Paul]

And at the time, was it both of those guys?

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. And at the time I was like, that's a lot to give up for a six foot point guard. 14 foot of front court in Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom for Chris Paul. Wow. But they had the guts to look at that deal. And in the long run, they'd have been right. That would have been a good deal to have.

[Rich Paul]

Did you still have Bynum? They had to have a big steel. Yeah, okay.

[Max Kellerman]

They did.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, keep going.

[Max Kellerman]

So I remember thinking, it's a gutsy move. And then in retrospect, damn, that would have been great for the Lakers. And what happened was Jerry Bus's Dr. Buss, the father, the patriarch who had passed his wish to keep the Lakers, to keep his kids communicating. And together the opposite happened. The irony is the reason the Chris Paul trade fell apart was because when Mitch and Jim made the move, they were not in close enough contact with Jeannie, who was in New York with the owners, because had they been, they would have known, guys, the temperature in this room, don't do this right now. The. These guys would come gunning for us. Right. Let me finesse this first and then consummate the deal later. But instead, because there wasn't that communication between the siblings, the owners got infuriated in New York and undid the Chris Paul deal. They put pressure on the commissioner to undo the Chris Paul deal, which is what happened. Right?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

And so the whole idea of the bus infighting kind of helping the sale of the Lakers, my mind goes right back to the Chris Paul deal where like the great irony of it all, save my family, keep them together. And because they couldn't communicate, it fell apart.

[Rich Paul]

My good friend Cheney called me and she said, well, actually I called her, but we were talking and she said something that I missed on her show and she said, you know, boomique. Yeah, yeah. She said, you know, Rich, great power comes with great responsibility. And so. And she was.

[Max Kellerman]

She's right, Uncle Ben, Spider man always. Good quote.

[Rich Paul]

She's right. And for this situation, look, there's an article written every day. Who gives a shit? I don't. Right. And you don't know what's true, what's not true. But there's. Where, there's. Where there's smoke, there's fire, right but what I will say is I seen some of the stuff that came out about it and obviously, you know, they talked about different scenarios in terms of the power that we may have and whatever. Here's all I know. All I know is this. There's an appreciation for guys like Michael Irvin. There should be or legends, and there damn sure should be appreciation for a guy like Michael. And I think that oftentimes people decide what not to do for reasons that don't really have substance to it. It's just like a.

[Max Kellerman]

Is this relating to the bus infighting?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you didn't read the article. The article talked about there's issue, or there was some issue with LeBron and clutch having too much power and all these type of things. And the point I'm making, you're discussing.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, so let's be clear. You're discussing the idea that Clutch had too much power with the Lakers.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not. That's what this guy wrote.

[Max Kellerman]

The idea that. Not that it actually did.

[Rich Paul]

What I'm discussing is. That's what the guy wrote. But these type of things happen all the time. And people don't know your relationship. Right. And so I'm just saying that you don't know if any of this stuff is true. You only know your relationship with other people. And what I know is from the time we've gotten to la, we've been treated great. There was a championship won, you know, we played Rummy Cube in the bubble, had a great time, lunch, everybody, every day. And I think when people see things are going well, they try their best to poke holes and try to manipulate relationships and things like that. And in any relationship, no matter who it is, no matter how long you've been with somebody, there's gonna be some type of annoyance at some point. That's part of it. Right. We're all human people, but I like to focus on the things that were done and were done well and were done great. Right. And every year you're fighting to try to reach a common goal. And when you're in the. And when you have the level of players that I've had, that relationship becomes a lot of times a partnership. And there's people that are very envious of that partnership. And so every day they try to put forth things and put out things.

[Max Kellerman]

And for what it's worth, when I.

[Rich Paul]

Was on the radio, so on and so forth. But before you start. But so I want to say, like, we're not falling for that. Nobody's falling for that. I'm not falling for that. I'm appreciative of, you know, what was. What I would say was the last seven, eight years or whatever it was. You know, it was great and you won. So there's.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, we gotta chip at it.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. And so there's nothing to talk about there. When these type of articles come out, people wanna take the clickbait. You'll see stuff floating around and floating around and floating around, and it's going back to the shoe. This is why I created the whole thing about being unbothered. You gotta be unbothered by this type of stuff. I am. I mean, it's like, whatever.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, to me, the interesting thing is the bus. Lack of, like, the Jerry bus, but.

[Rich Paul]

The clutch angle of it.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, I was doing the radio show when KCP came to the Lakers. You got KCP to the Lakers. 17 million or 18 million?

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, 18.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, 18 million one year. And I remember what I would say on the air at the time is, give Klutch whatever they want. They're gonna wind up sending LeBron here. Like, what are you doing? It's an inside job. You remember the Lufthansa heist? Security? You're looking at them. So I was very much in favor at the time of that franchise giving you guys the keys because it would get LeBron to LA. Now you're saying that's not what happened. I understand. And looking back at it, it's not what happened. Like, AD Was traded in the middle of the night for Luka. Right? Like, that's a clutch client.

[Rich Paul]

So I'm not saying it's business, but.

[Max Kellerman]

What I am saying is, in retrospect, the Lakers, who were not going to sniff a championship, and even though it happened in the bubble and everything, they got a championship out of the LeBron situation.

[Rich Paul]

And guess what?

[Max Kellerman]

It's great.

[Rich Paul]

You can stop there.

[Max Kellerman]

Right? I agree.

[Rich Paul]

Let's. Let's appreciate that. And I know who appreciated that because I was there, right? So let's just gratification which bus child appreciated it.

[Max Kellerman]

Put you on the spot right now.

[Rich Paul]

Why is it so hard for people to. To just appreciate things? So? Why does that have to be such a hard thing to do? Just appreciate it.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, Look, I appreciate you, Rich.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, great. And I appreciate you.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, thank you very much.

[Rich Paul]

We can end it right there.

[Max Kellerman]

I will see you on Friday.

[Rich Paul]

See you on Friday. I can't believe you. I just want you to know you're paying for my travel.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

You have to, man. You're coming to Vegas you coming to my.

[Max Kellerman]

We're doing the show on Friday in Vegas. Cause I gotta fight that night. Yeah, Yeah. I gotta call a fight.

[Rich Paul]

And it's a good thing I'm flying.

[Max Kellerman]

Private Callum Walsh Ocampo. Could be a good scrap.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not flying private.

[Max Kellerman]

No, you're not? Really?

[Rich Paul]

No. I would for you to pay for it, but if I had to pay.

[Max Kellerman]

For it, I got a spring for it.

[Rich Paul]

Hell, no, I'm not flying private.

[Max Kellerman]

Game over.

[Rich Paul]

I fly private like that.

[Max Kellerman]

You want to tell him the thing?

[Rich Paul]

I'll fly Delta 360.

[Max Kellerman]

You want to tell them the thing? Game over. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. And I. What I.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't want to say? Please subscribe. That's usually what you say.

[Rich Paul]

I'm gonna switch it up this time.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. What are you gonna tell him?

[Rich Paul]

Subscribe, please. All right, I did it the other way, but also give insight like we. So today, just so you guys know, we were trying to get the show to under an hour, right?

[Max Kellerman]

Did we? Did we?

[Rich Paul]

I think we got close. Yes. It's 9:35.

[Max Kellerman]

We're gonna have a clock pretty soon.

[Rich Paul]

If we go to overtime, it's 9:35. No, you went too long on the baseball thing, man. I told you that was.

[Max Kellerman]

You wanna do a clock on how long that took versus the youth sports?

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not saying yes. You took longer. I guarantee you took longer. All of your takes is longer. You want to make a bet?

[Max Kellerman]

Time it. I'll bet you.

[Rich Paul]

Okay. Bet.

[Max Kellerman]

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