Thriller in Pittsburgh, Coaching Decisions, and Around the NBA

Summary

Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Thriller in Pittsburgh, Coaching Decisions, and Around the NBA

The Ringer, January 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, Max Kellerman and Rich Paul dive deep into the wild Steelers-Ravens regular season classic, coaching philosophies around the NFL, and key narrative arcs across the NBA. Rich shares candid moments from the Lakers’ locker room, the duo debates the proper valuation of NFL head coaches versus top assistants, and they discuss how legacy and branding intersect for sports icons. Basketball debates heat up as Brown vs. Tatum sparks fireworks, while the pair reflect on what makes a truly transcendent athlete brand.

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Pittsburgh Steelers vs. Baltimore Ravens: An Instant Classic

[02:00-12:00]

• Max claims the recent Steelers-Ravens showdown was "one of the greatest regular season games in the history of football," setting the tone for a conversation on rivalry, legacy, and playoff stakes.
• The duo compares legendary American sports rivalries, ultimately agreeing that Steelers-Ravens is currently the NFL’s premier grudge match.
  • Max: “When you think about the biggest rivalries... What's the biggest rivalry in the NFL? It's Ravens-Steelers, really.” [02:11]
• Discussion of the playoff implications and the narrative tension: loser goes home, winner moves on.
• Rich and Max spar over Lamar Jackson’s postseason reputation, noting the pressure he faces due to team sport dynamics and historical biases toward Black quarterbacks:
  • Rich: “People want him to look a certain way. They want him to look like a quarterback… that’s the real issue he had coming in.” [08:35]
  • Max: “This is like the plight of the Black quarterback for decades and decades and decades.” [08:57]
• The two dissect how every play mattered in a low-scoring, defense-dominated affair—à la old-school football—contrasting it with current high-scoring trends that "devalue each score."
  • Max: “Every play was magnified because of how much each play meant, because of how precious each point was.” [06:22]
• Heartbreak for field goal kickers: sympathy for the Baltimore kicker who missed at the end. Rich invokes Ray Finkel and historic moments of missed kicks [07:38].

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Coaches, Culture, and Consistency: Lessons from NFL Sidelines

[12:00-18:30]

• Max and Rich delve into why certain NFL franchises—specifically the Steelers and Ravens—set a standard for culture and consistency, often owed to the stability of their head coaches.
  • Rich: “What is the Steelers and Ravens’ common denominator? Culture.” [12:44]
  • Max: “The head coach’s job primarily is to make sure your team is competitive all the time.” [12:22]
• The duo critiques the frequent firing of head coaches, especially noting the Browns’ firing of Kevin Stefanski, and debate the merits of stability vs. the need for a difference-maker at head coach.
• A fascinating tangent on why positional coaches and coordinators should sometimes be paid head coach money to retain greatness:
  • Max: “If you have a defensive or offensive coordinator you think is excellent, pay him triple salary if you have to.” [15:50]
  • Rich: “If you pay me not to be a head coach—if you pay me head coach money…” [16:29]

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NBA Check-In: Coaching, Strategy, and Honest Appraisal

[21:10–34:00]

• Rich recounts an in-game conversation with LeBron James about offensive adjustments, referencing recent commentary from coach JJ Redick. He details how LeBron and Luka Doncic can maximize roles in late-game situations:
  • Rich: “I like you and Luka in the pick and roll… You and 77 in the pick and roll.” [24:00]
  • Max: “If one dude is dribbling the ball to death… that’s not going to work.” [25:40]
• The Lakers’ prospects and limitations are openly debated. Rich (not as LeBron's agent, he insists) and Max agree the Lakers are not true contenders despite their star power.
  • Max: “This is Rich’s honest opinion about the Lakers... there are some teams better than them in their own conference.” [29:32]
  • Rich: “I still don’t think the Lakers are contenders.” [29:05]
• Both hosts praise Jalen Brunson, Tyrese Maxey, and Joel Embiid for their play, highlight the growing Knicks-Sixers rivalry, and question the Cavs’ developmental trajectory—especially regarding Evan Mobley. The ongoing challenge: patience versus rising expectations for young stars.

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Team Building: Depth, Duos, and NBA Parity

[36:30–42:00]

• Rich maintains that franchise building is cyclical and influenced by chemistry, health, and momentum, pushing back against Max’s impatience:
  • Rich: “Yesterday’s scores don’t tell today’s game.” [37:03]
• Parity in the NBA is celebrated; multiple teams are described as "one or one-and-a-half moves away" from contention, using the Suns’ recent success as a case study for the power of the right coaching and the “4 E’s”: energy, effort, execution, and consistency.
  • Rich: “If you just do that, you’re going to be competitive and win some games.” [42:55]

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NFL Draft Drama & AFC Quarterback Legacies

[44:10–51:12]

• Max puts the Giants’ ongoing dysfunction under the microscope, lamenting their perennial habit of sabotaging draft position via meaningless late-season wins:
  • Max: “The system is set up to punish the Giants. It reveals their incompetence.” [44:13]
• Lookup at the AFC playoff landscape: for the first time in years, Patrick Mahomes is absent from the postseason. Aaron Rodgers faces a gauntlet of young, legacy-hungry QBs; the hosts contemplate the narrative swings if any of them reaches the Super Bowl.
  • Max: “Our entire perception of football is about a change in this AFC playoff run right now.” [51:12]

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The Brown-Tatum Debate: Duo Dynamics and NBA History

[52:29–61:59]

• Jaylen Brown’s 50-point outburst triggers a spirited segment about the fluid pecking order among Celtics stars and more generally the evolving nature of NBA duos.
  • Max: “Are we sure Tatum is better than Jaylen Brown right now?” [54:33]
  • Rich: “Comparisons are the thief of joy... I like them both.” [54:46]
• Max plays “joy thief,” ultimately making the case for Brown due to postseason reliability.
  • Max: “I’ve seen too many playoff games from Tatum… I didn’t feel like he was still Jayson Tatum... I’m taking Jaylen Brown.” [58:20]
  • Rich: “Don’t let ego or entitlement... stunts the growth of players all the time.” [58:52]
• Both stress the historical uniqueness of a pair this close in ability and warn against media-driven narratives that could split them before their era runs its course.

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Athlete Brands: The Michael Jordan Effect

[62:10–83:57+]

• Responding to public reactions, Rich gives a passionate, visual whiteboard-led masterclass on why Michael Jordan’s athlete brand is peerless.
  • Rich: “No one has built the brand of Michael’s… Michael Jordan didn’t share the market. He controlled the market.” [67:13, 73:33]
  • Key factors: Nike Air, Gatorade’s “Be Like Mike,” hip-hop and pop-culture influence, the timing of marketing during the crack epidemic era, and cultural product seeding before social media.
  • Rich: “The first influencers were guys like Fresh Prince of Bel-Air. What shoes did he wear?” [71:02]
• Rich shares personal stories about the cultural cache of Jordans (“the i95 Gold Coast” for footwear), the lengths kids went to get them, and what made this athlete-product synergy indelible and generational.
  • Rich: “There’s been two mythological people. Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan.” [81:09]
• Rich takes a moment to advise young athletes on focusing on “the right partners” in branding, not simply chasing volume.
• They pivot to LeBron James, discussing how transcendent talent is the only real catalyst for such enduring, lucrative athletic brands.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Lamar Jackson and QB Criticism:
  “I think Lamar gets a lot of flack because people want him to look a certain way. They want him to look like a quarterback... and that's the real issue he had coming in.” — Rich [08:35]

• On Head Coach Value:
  “The head coach’s job primarily is to make sure your team is competitive all the time. The Steelers and Ravens are always competitive.” — Max [12:22]

• On Assistant Coach Salaries:
  “If you have a D or an offensive coordinator you think is excellent, pay him triple salary. If you have to pay him to stay in that role.” — Max [15:50]

• On Lakers’ True Ceiling:
  “I still don’t think that, that, that Lakers are contenders... when you have the names like a LeBron and Luka, there’s gonna be a championship expectation.” — Rich [29:05]

• On NBA Duos Not Splitting:
  “Oftentimes we allow our athletes...to say it got to be you... and that stunts the growth of players all the time... We've lost the ability to watch them play for several months.” — Rich [58:41]

• On Michael Jordan’s Brand:
  “Michael Jordan didn’t share the market, he controlled the market.” — Rich [73:33]

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Key Timestamps

• [02:11] Steelers-Ravens rivalry and NFL’s biggest grudge matches
• [05:58] Max on scarcity and value in low-scoring, high-drama NFL games
• [08:35] Rich on the real reasons for Lamar Jackson skepticism
• [12:22] Max on what makes Harbaugh and Tomlin elite head coaches
• [15:50] Max on why top assistants should be paid like head coaches
• [24:00] Rich on Lakers’ late-game offense with LeBron and Luka
• [29:05] Rich flatly states the Lakers are not true contenders
• [44:13] Max’s epic Giants dysfunction/draft rant
• [51:12] The "changing of the guard" in AFC playoff quarterbacks
• [54:33] Max: “Are we sure Tatum is better than Jaylen Brown right now?”
• [67:13] Rich launches mega Jordan-brand explanation
• [73:33] "Michael Jordan didn’t share... he controlled the market."
• [81:09] “There’s been two mythological people. Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan.”

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Takeaways

• Pittsburgh’s win over Baltimore exemplifies football at its dramatic, gritty best, and the NFL’s competitive culture starts with stable, elite leadership—as epitomized by Harbaugh and Tomlin.
• Rich Paul and Max Kellerman’s coaching philosophy: keep the best minds at any cost—even if not at the top. Don’t underestimate organizational culture.
• NBA depth and duo strength are at a premium. Patient team-building can pay off, while fans and media must resist quick judgements about young stars.
• Branding for athletes is about much more than statistics or even on-court greatness: timing, culture, product synergy, and influencer networks all matter. But talent is the true “moat.”
• The Brown vs. Tatum debate is a luxury not a problem—unique in recent NBA history.

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Game Over continues to blend sharp sports insight with culture, history, and the business behind the scenes. The mix of candor, humor, and inside access makes it a must-listen for serious fans and armchair GMs alike.

Transcript

[A]

You got the. You got the double breast today. Look at you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What is this about?

[B]

You know, listen, we talked about it last week. What wardrobe? I have a wardrobe, man. I get it.

[A]

But, you know, like, you know, now. Now I feel underdressed.

[B]

You're not underdressed. What is.

[A]

You got a tie on. What is this about?

[B]

Tie? What. What you mean?

[A]

I'm saying this is a statement, though.

[B]

I'm standing on business today. Why? This is me standing on business today. But I'm gonna give you a different look, Max. Like you have a boxing show, right?

[A]

Yep. What?

[B]

Boxers come out with the same. You have to be able to make different styles to make different.

[A]

I like the knit tie, the whole thing. But when you say you're standing on business today, why is today a stand on business day, especially?

[B]

Well, the weekend was great.

[A]

Oh, what a weekend. What a weekend.

[B]

I was one for. We were one for one with each our picks.

[A]

I picked the Seahawks.

[B]

You picked the Steelers. Yeah, those two.

[A]

You almost went two and.

[B]

Oh, I almost went two and. Oh, you almost went two and. So if I was two zero, I was already prepared, so.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then.

[A]

Oh, you picked this out when you thought you went.

[B]

I thought I was gonna be two and. Oh, yeah.

[A]

But.

[B]

But, but no, you know, I just want to give a different look. I felt good today.

[A]

See that? Good weekend. Otherwise, you go golf and all that.

[B]

You know what I reminded myself, Rich, you're just a kid. Cause I was in the window singing, rain, rain, go away. I was like, what is going on?

[A]

By the way, Noah, I think we're good now. We're supposed to get. We're here in sunny la. It's been raining nonstop, basically, for, like, three weeks.

[B]

I was. But I will tell you, I was back on the simulator.

[A]

Okay. And at LeBron's house.

[B]

Yeah, I beat him.

[A]

You beat LeBron on the simulator?

[B]

I fear both. Don't say anything to them. But I beat them both. Yeah, it's not looking good.

[A]

You think maybe now that you said it might get back to him?

[B]

Yeah, but I don't think this part. They won't watch this. It don't matter. Yeah.

[A]

You ready to do this?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. Twitter 21 and over in present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800- GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org Chattinconenetic. Ravens, Steelers. Last night r one of the greatest regular season games in the history of football. In the history of. I'll tell you why it is a play in game. First of all, loser goes home. It is when you think about the biggest rivalries in American sports. Right. Yankees, Red Sox, Lakers, Celtics, Duke in Carolina, Ohio State, Michigan. Right. Like these are the biggest rivalries in American sports. What's the biggest rivalry in the NFL? It's Ravens, Steelers. Really? I mean you can go back to the 80s and 90s. Talk about cowboys, 90s brown Steelers.

[B]

But that's okay because the Ravens took our team. The Ravens are the Browns 1.0.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Nevertheless, it's still in the NFL. I don't see like Cowboys and who really is the natural rivalry? Plus they're not in the playoffs a lot.

[B]

Cowboys and no, it would be Cowboys.

[A]

And it used to be Cowboys and it used to be Cowboys. And what the commanders were because it's like, hey, we're playing Cowboys and Indians. Right. But like. And neither one of those teams are good most of the time now. Right. So who is it in the NFL? When I think about. I think it's okay, packers and Bears.

[B]

But the Bears haven't won a Super bowl since 85. Yeah. But they're back.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm looking at that rivalry. And then you think about all the storylines in that game playing to see who goes to the playoffs. The losing coach may be out.

[B]

I never thought that. But you did.

[A]

Yeah, maybe I'm not. I don't think either. If I was either franchise, I wouldn't get rid of those guys. But that's like there's a possibility that, that that happens now. Like we'll see. Like you have the young ish quarterback in Lamar Jackson with who's coming off injury, who hasn't looked the same, who has not really been the same guy. More and more he has been the same guy in the playoffs as he is in the regular season. Right. The whole thing is dare Lamar to beat you in the playoffs. He can't do it. Can he do it this time? Especially now that he's hurt. Right. Aaron Rodgers, the old guy, does he have one last something in him? Plus he's only Sitting on one super.

[B]

Bowl win, he hasn't lost his fire, that's for sure. Dude.

[A]

When you think about Aaron Rodgers level of talent, he should not have the same number of super bowl wins as like Drew Brees, who's excellent, but not Aaron Rodgers in terms of talent. Right.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

Roger, like, he really kind of needs. It would really enhance his legacy and.

[B]

At least any underachieved.

[A]

He didn't have the same defenses that some of the guys like year in and year out that some of the guys who won more, they didn't draft high up at receiver. But yeah, Rogers should have done more in the playoffs given how long he's played and how great he's been. So there's that. There's all this stuff at stake, all these storylines and then Rich. You think of like what a dollar meant. 100 years ago it was valuable. Right. Nowadays a dollar, it's cheapened because of inflation. That's the same thing with scoring in sports. When you're in an environment where there's more and more scoring, each score means less. Right. Even as a fan, you're watching it. When we were kids.

[B]

That's a pretty good take on that. Yeah. When that's true. Yeah. Cause normally we'll be sitting here with a 136 AFC for all the marbles. Frigid cold defense.

[A]

Do you remember how every play meant.

[B]

Something when we were kids? Absolutely right.

[A]

But this had that too because it was low scoring. So every play. And it was smash mouth. Every play.

[B]

Low earth scoring.

[A]

Yeah. Well, at the end they started scoring. But for most of the game, game, every play was magnified because of how much each play meant, because of how precious each point was. And then at the end you got a flurry of scoring. So like it, it crescendoed. It was like it was a. It was perfect. And then the end of that game where Rogers leads him down the field and scores, and then the kicker misses the, the, the Pat.

[B]

Well, this is. Yeah.

[A]

And then Lamar is plays the hero brings him back and then the kicker misses the field goal.

[B]

But this is my thing about Lamar Jackson. You give Lamar a hard time, in my opinion.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because you like he has to do more. He has to do more. That's two years in a row he put his team in position to win.

[A]

He did.

[B]

And because it's a team sport, when you play a team sport, you have to depend on others. And I'm not going to be too hard on Andrews or even the kicker because look, the people in Baltimore, that guy did not want to miss that. He wanted to.

[A]

Is there anyone, more than anything, is there anyone in sports you feel worse for than the field goal kicker?

[B]

No.

[A]

Who misses the field goal?

[B]

No.

[A]

I felt so bad for that.

[B]

Ray Finkel. Ray Finkel. This is what I'm saying. You know, remember Ray Finkel? And it's like it takes me back to the Bills, Norwood.

[A]

I mean, like there's. You remember the name of the characters.

[B]

Yeah, but then when you. Okay, but when you think about it on the other end, Brady, who is the all time greatest. Right. Look what he had, though. Vinatieri.

[A]

Yeah, it's true.

[B]

So just get me to the 50.

[A]

And I'm going to make Josh McDaniels. He had the right. He had the right head coach. He had the right offensive offensive coordinator. He had defenses. He had.

[B]

Those things matter. Those guys don't get all the credit for sure. But. But you need to come through.

[A]

There's no doubt what you're saying about Lamar is true. Last two years, you can't fault him for not. He did what he was supposed to do.

[B]

I think Lamar gets a lot of. I think he gets a lot of flack.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because people want him to look a certain way. They want him to look like a quarterback.

[A]

And I think he looked like a quarterback last night.

[B]

Yeah, but I'm talking about. I think people want him to look, have the quarterback silhouette. And that's the real issue he had coming in because that talent should not have been sitting there.

[A]

Well, I mean, like, this is like the plight of the black quarterback for decades and decades and decades. And he should be receiver, he should be this, he should be that. And you know, so like, yes, there is that. But in this case for Lamar, last two years, you're right to identify. That's not on Lamar, however. And this goes for Josh Allen, too. Lamar's been in the league longer than Josh Allen. This is his eighth season. Josh Allen's in his sixth season, I believe. No. 6. Yeah, he came out.

[B]

That's only two years.

[A]

But when you have, when you haven't brought your team on a run, Right. And in Lamar's case, he was bad early in the playoffs. Now, he was extremely young, 21 years old, starting at quarterback in the NFL. So he was precocious. Joe Burrow was like 23, 24 when he started, but he, he wasn't good early. And when you're in the league eight years and you're on some good teams and you've had a lot of bites at the apple there's less of a margin for error. Even when it's not your fault at the end. People say, okay, but you've been in the league eight years, you've never been on a run.

[B]

Yeah, but he wasn't, by the way.

[A]

That goes for Josh Allen too in these playoffs.

[B]

But he wasn't even supposed to be. That's why he was sitting there at that table with his mom. Because no one ever thought he can even be who he is today.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's a multiple time mvp. He's great.

[B]

I'm just saying.

[A]

But then the standard changes when you get to that level. And I want to talk about Josh Allen too. Like Lamar, Josh Allen. They're guys like that. So good in the regular season. They've been on enough good teams even if. Yes, but what are their offensive weapons or their defense wasn't great this year. At a certain number of years you start going, make a run.

[B]

I'm saying once he gains the credibility that yes, he is an NFL quarterback, which nobody thought he would be or.

[A]

Could be coming a great NFL quarterback.

[B]

Once you gain that, then it changes.

[A]

Yeah. No one cares about dudes who are mediocre.

[B]

Okay, Right. But, but incredible game.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Incredible game.

[A]

Incredible game.

[B]

Mike Tomlin, man. Mike Tomlin. Yeah.

[A]

By the way, I wouldn't get rid of Harbaugh either. Mike'd up, you know.

[B]

No, I wouldn't. I told you that there's no way.

[A]

Because they got rid. Your guys got rid of Stefanski.

[B]

Well, now I wish they would get rid of one of those guys because maybe one of those guys would come to my franchise.

[A]

But, but like Stefanski, who's a coach of the two time coach of the.

[B]

Year and I like Stefanski.

[A]

You like the firing or no?

[B]

I mean, I can't tell Jimmy what to do. It's his team. And I think that when you don't, you know, look, I never like for anybody to get fired. But when you do see a firing, and I've been fired before, it happens. When you do see a firing, it does say to you, hey, we're not just selling for. We're not complacent. We're not. We, you know, we have this drive to want to do better and be better. You're not. And the tough part about this is it's business. Right? So I don't think they're firing the person of Kevin Stefanski. They fired the coach of and Morten Stefanski.

[A]

I think it leads to a job. He was in a bigger kind of conversation about whatever you want to say about Harbaugh or Tomlin, their teams compete every year. That's a head coach.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's not.

[B]

It's not the.

[A]

Oh, they're brilliant offensive. They're head coaches. Because the head coach's job primarily is to make sure your team is competitive all the time. The Steelers and the Ravens are always competitive.

[B]

So what is. What does the Steelers and Ravens have in common? What's their common denominator?

[A]

You tell me.

[B]

Culture.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Right. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a lot of that starts with right. So whether that's the kind of organization that hires that type of head coach so that you get that kind of culture.

[B]

Well, I think it's everything. And I think that, you know, it's something that we've been trying to find. Right. Yeah, it's a holistic thing. Ozzie Newsom, Harbaugh, Ray Lewis.

[A]

Yeah, you went.

[B]

You know, they've had guys like Shannon Sharpe. They've had guys like Deion. They had Ed Reed.

[A]

In my lifetime, the Steelers have had how many coaches? Like three.

[B]

This is what I'm saying. One of them went to my high school, by the way. Chuck Noe. Oh, yeah.

[A]

You told me that.

[B]

But what I'm saying to you is when you think about it, from any and even that. Just that having three coaches in the last hundred years or whatever, I've been owed. Right. That matters because there's a consistency there.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. So is it. So Stefanski may be one of these guys who is like a brilliant offensive mind, but not always the right head coach. Whereas that's okay. Tomlin and Harbaugh are maybe not as brilliant, but are head coaches.

[B]

Yes, but that. But again, every coach wants to become a head coach. Sometimes I believe organizations should be able to see the value in that coach. Exactly where. Where they're at. The reason why head coaches. The reason why really good coaches and positional. And position. Position coaches want to become head coaches is because.

[A]

More money.

[B]

Exactly. So now if I recognize the genius in you in that role, your title doesn't mean I can't pay you.

[A]

I totally. Dude, I totally agree with this.

[B]

I understand why you wouldn't.

[A]

I never understood. It doesn't count. To get this. I think about this all the time and I think I've brought this up on the pod. I think about the 90s in baseball. There's a pitching coach, Leo Mazzone, and he were the Braves. Not only did they have a great staff, every time they took a reclamation project, the dude went 18 and 6 with a great Jared Wright or whoever it was. And I used to think a baseball team back then will spend 5, 8 million dollars on some mid level veteran type dude. And it doesn't really work out. You could get a dude like Leo Mazzone, just put a zero on the end of his salary, lure him away, and he turns your whole pitching staff into a top notch. Like I don't understand. Especially in football and basketball where there are salary caps and with the aprons now, it's almost like a hard cap. And football has a hard cap. It's a way to funnel the money from TV into the competitive product. That doesn't hurt your cap and that makes you much better. You're right. If you have a D or an offensive coordinator you think is excellent, pay him triple salary. If you have to pay him to.

[B]

Stay in that role. Jimmy Clemens and Tex Winters was next to Phil Jackson.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Now they should have been the highest paid assistant coaches ever, right? Because that duo or that trio, it worked.

[A]

It worked.

[B]

So I think that team should look at that. And therefore you wouldn't have so many people trying to jump because you're trying to every. You know, just like you dream of being the franchise player. If I'm a coach, why would I never want to be a head coach? But if you pay me not to be a head coach, if you pay me head coach money.

[A]

You know what Keyshawn Johnson used to say when we did radio together? Key used to say, I want my D coordinator. An old dude with the dandruff on his shoulders. Right? Because he's not trying to be a head coach anymore. He knows this is his job and he's like, great at it. So the question for you, some coaches.

[B]

Do become head coaches and be great at it, of course. But. Yeah, but in most cases you're right, they should remain.

[A]

But I mean, instead of having some young up and coming D coordinator who wants to be a head coach, you're gonna wind up losing them.

[B]

Pay that guy. Pay the guy who has shown his genius in that role.

[A]

So the question before we move on, because I want to get into a lot of NBA stuff, okay? And then we get back to the NFL. But so a franchise like the Steelers never changes coaches and they get the guy they choose. They measure twice, cut once. Right? Measure twice, cut once. When you got that tailored, they measured twice and they only had to cut it once. That's what the Steelers do. So they got it right. If you're a franchise like the Browns or bad franchises Basically. Who cycled through? Come on, man. Who cycled through? Look, I'm a Giants fan right now. It's a bad franchise. Jets are a bad franchise. Everyone can agree on that. They cycle through coaches. They cycle. They're in a tough spot because on the one hand, they, like. You know, if you're the jets, you're dumb, so you make bad choices. And now you have a bad coach, so you want to change it, you want to get better. On the other hand, you know, but there's no consistency. Maybe I should just stay with this guy. Well, if you do, you have a bad coach. So the firing of Stefanski is interesting to me. He's shown he's a good coach in the past. Yes, you want consistency if you're an organization like the Browns, but on the other hand, if you feel like he's not a guy like Tomlin or Harbaugh who will make you compete every year, even if you only win six or seven games that year, but you were in every game, what do you do?

[B]

I know. I think this was an extremely difficult choice for us to make.

[A]

And you with that team, boy.

[B]

Yeah, I'm with the Browns. And look, we have what. We have great ownership. They don't mind spending the money. That's not the case. I think we drafted pretty well. We've drafted pretty well.

[A]

Yeah. A lot of this is just. You can't recover from that Deshaun Watson contract.

[B]

That's a lot of it. But again, sometimes those type of decisions happen, and it can go either way because we're sitting here and we would be. We like the aggressiveness at the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then things took a swing, but then you take a swing, but that comes with risk. So those things kind of set you back. But we have a lot there. And so this coaching thing. The only thing I would say. The last thing I would say to that is.

[A]

You said coaching thing. I haven't thought about something.

[B]

When you have. When you make this type of decision, hopefully we have someone that.

[A]

Yeah. Someone in mind. It's like, yeah, we're gonna get rid of Tomlin or Harbaugh. Really?

[B]

Bringing in the Martin.

[A]

You got Vince Lombardi.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

[A]

By the way, once upon a time, this is talking about, like, the assistants. You know who the Giants assistants were?

[B]

I do know who they were.

[A]

The offensive head coach, the offensive coordinator and the defensive coordinator.

[B]

Belichick was.

[A]

I'm going before Belichick. Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry. The Giants had them as the offensive and defensive coordinators. Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry.

[B]

Well, that's way back. I mean, I wasn't even like, no doubt.

[A]

But I'm just saying, that is like the Giant. This happens to my franchise all the time.

[B]

Belichick.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

With Parcells, they had Belichick.

[A]

Well, Belichick was the. Was the defensive coordinator for parcels.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes, that's. It's happened with the G. But, like, later on, too. But imagine having Lombardi and Landry and then the packers and the Cowboys wind up winning all the championships because you didn't retain them. Because you didn't.

[B]

But you have to. And again, it just. It's a lot that goes into that, too, because you have to recognize it. People see, people think strategy, their strategy is execution. But before that, there's vision. And you have to have the vision.

[A]

To pay the guys.

[B]

You're saying no. To identify. You have to have the vision to be able to recognize the genius in somebody. Like, prime example, when Sam Presti hired the coach for. Okay, he was with the Blue Coats.

[A]

Right.

[B]

He made him the head coach.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This guy became a champion in Phoenix.

[A]

Brings in. What's his name, Jordan. Odd ot, man, has those guys playing. All right, look, you brought it up. Coaching. I saw you on TV last night where. Talking to LeBron James.

[B]

Yeah, I went to the game.

[A]

I went to the game Yesterday talking to LeBron James.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. What were you telling.

[B]

What was I telling him?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, normally I wouldn't say what I was telling him, but because it was a basketball thing, I can tell you. We were just talking about. I told you before, like, I'm not. I'm watching a different game than most people. And as of late, I've been loving to watch more games at home because I get to see things and talk to my guys about different things. But I went to the game. It was Sunday. I went to the game. And there was a moment in the game where I was saying to him, JJ's comments made me think about something.

[A]

What were what comments?

[B]

JJ made the comment that he felt like the organization, that the players were having a hard time executing some of the plays. Right.

[A]

Clearly.

[B]

And I think that for someone like jj, who went to Duke, was a very high IQ ballplayer when he played, his way of thinking is going to be different than most players.

[A]

And he's been a hell of a coach so far.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, the results are the results.

[B]

I tell guys as they're coming into the league again, this game is mental. And when you're evaluating talent, one of the biggest things one of the biggest question marks is fans see a guy able to run, jump, shoot, handle all of that. What they don't see is if I draw this play up in a timeout, can you come out of this timeout and execute this play exactly how I drew it up?

[A]

I mean, a lot of games are won and lost, especially in the playoffs with that stuff.

[B]

Again, that matters. That matters. So when JJ shows that frustration, I'm sitting there watching, I'm saying, okay, so in the game, I saw some stuff, and when I catch eye contact with my guys, if they have an opportunity, they'll come over. So Brian came over and I was talking to him about what I saw, and I was like, do you see the same thing? And I was like, you catching the ball here with a live dribble, being able to bring over two, because they're going to bring over two. It takes Luka off the ball for a second, but what it does is it gets him. Because Luka's shot, he likes to be in his rhythm on the step back, but he also has the ability to really catch and shoot where he's square. And it's just. It's doing two things. It's getting him a better shot. Luca and is also simplifying the offense for everyone else.

[A]

And by the way, his shooting percentage, especially from outside, would be much better if he didn't always have to create his own shot.

[B]

Yeah, but. But again, my thing is, because it happened last night, you get him a couple of those now when he. Because he hit a big catch and shoot three, but then he came down. Wasn't as the next possession was the possession after that. And he hit the step back three on the right wing because he's already in rhythm. And Luke is a rhythm. Yeah, when he's doing that, he's a rhythm guy. And then we talked about. I said with four minutes ago, I like you and Luca in the pick and roll. And he was like, you talking about. Because he could. He. I was saying, I like y' all in the pick and roll. And he was like, you like who?

[A]

Five?

[B]

Talking about eight? And I was like, no, I like 77. He was 77 to pick a roll. So if you watch the end of that game on the left side, they were really running a ball screen. And. And LeBron was setting it, but he was kind of like he was setting it, but he was really only setting it just enough to be able to get the switch with Jaylen Wells. And then once he gets that, now it. Now the. The defense has to Shift. So we were talking about.

[A]

I like the idea of LeBron kind of initiating the offense for a couple reasons, Rich. One, Luka so far has been James Harden 2.0. He's an incredible offensive machine.

[B]

Are you saying he's been a Hall of Fame, all NBA star dude consistently?

[A]

Yeah, he's an all NBA.

[B]

I didn't say stat dude. I said hall of Fame.

[A]

I'm saying stat dude. Now, we've seen him also take a team deep into the playoffs. So he has done that, but so did Harden. But it doesn't result in a championship. And one of the reasons I believe that's the case is because if one dude is dribbling the ball to death and no one else is touching the ball until there's no time left on the shot clock, and then sometimes if he can't, like, then sometimes you'll touch it, that's not going to work. I don't care how great that player is at doing, at scoring in those situations, Harden and Luka, because it's hard to get better than that at that stuff. But you want other guys to touch it. Even feeding deandre Ayton early in the game yesterday, last night was smart because you gotta feed the big. I mean, it's like an old adage in basketball. It's true. By the way, if you wanted to play defense, you should feed him on offense, let alone if you want to get him going. So if LeBron is kind of initiating the offense sometimes, then at least a couple of people are touching the ball.

[B]

Yeah, but I think you can do both. And I think you have to pick your spots. I thought they did a much better job. Now, obviously they're playing the Memphis Grizzlies, who know ja, but that team played really hard last night and they made shots and flying around, athletic, et cetera. But I'm just. I think people get confused with initiating the offense, meaning you take the shot. There's just certain. No, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But sometimes people feel that way. I think there's. The point I was making was for that particular game, that night, you know, every night is different matchups.

[A]

In other words, there are some nights you want Harden and Luka doing their thing.

[B]

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think in the regular season, when I look at regular seasons, it depends on what my roster looks like. I think for certain guys, especially if you're trying to help guys become better at their role, develop, build confidence, all those things, that's regular season stuff. Because once you get to the playoffs, and this is going to be big for The Lakers, if they get to the playoffs, they're going to have to depend on deandre Ayton being able to make a very high IQ basketball play because they're going to blitz Luka, they're going to bring a late double on LeBron. Right?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so now you got to make those other guys beat you. So. But last night I felt like after JJ's comments, they came back, it was a much better effort and much better energy, but that's what we were talking about.

[A]

Listen, the good news for the Lakers is in the playoffs, if everyone's healthy, deandre Ayton's your fourth best player. That's not too bad. He's not your third best player. He's your fourth best player if everyone's healthy. And that's not too bad. You don't love their roster against the Rockets or OKC or the Nuggets, but it's still a pretty good team. Give me three more NBA reactions, Rich, because a lot of stuff happened.

[B]

I did watch the. I watched the. I still think, but I'm not changing my, my take. I still don't think that, that, that Lakers are contenders.

[A]

Just say that loud or say it with your chest.

[B]

No, no. But again, I know people look at it. I'm not saying it in a. With a negative connotation. What I'm saying is there's a, There's. When you have the names like a LeBron and Luka, there's gonna be a championship expectation.

[A]

Let me stop you for a second. People hearing this will think Rich Paul is being a mouthpiece for LeBron James.

[B]

That's not true, Rich.

[A]

Just to let everybody know, we hang out, we talk all the time and have for a long time. And this is Rich's honest opinion about the Lakers. And by the way, it is also my opinion about the Lakers and it's most smart basketball people's opinion about the Lakers. This is not a positioning of a certain message. Let's be honest, they're better than most teams, but there are some teams better than them in their own conference, which means they're not probably going to make the Western Conference finals. That's not an unreasonable thing to say or a politically motivated thing to say.

[B]

Thank you. And no, it's not. And I think that fans also. They're fans. So you could be a fanatic about things. That's not necessarily realistic. And I think that in this seat, doing this show, I'm starring in this role. This is my role to embrace. I don't have an Asian Hat on or anything like that, usually.

[A]

And it's just when you do, I'll let people know.

[B]

Yeah, I'll be Mr. Biden when I need to be. But it's basketball, and it's no different than the conversation I would have. If you talk to any front office, they will say one thing Rich is going to be is honest.

[A]

Straight up. That looks honest. It's so funny about how perception and reality are so sometimes the public gets it just right. They can see a situation, and they can basically see what's happening behind the scenes. And sometimes they're just off base.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in a way, it's a compliment to you because they figure you're being slick. Right. Like, oh, he's an agent. He's supposed to be slick for his clients. But it's really like, in this case, look, the Lakers just beat a team with a losing record twice, and they.

[B]

Have eight more games with teams under.500.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I say all that to say this, though, but that don't mean that you take. When you have a LeBron and a Luka and Austin's hurt now, that's a pretty good talent pool to start. Right. And being respectful to the rest of the roster. Not focusing on names, but really just focusing on how are we looking at this season and how do we really want to evaluate it? Because this is the choice you're making. Right. As you can see, LeBron still has a lot left in the tank.

[A]

I would say he does, but my opinion is less than I thought before the year started. Before the year started, I thought he was underrating himself sometimes. He'd be like, I think I'm still better than 95% of the league. I'm like, lebron, you're still better than 99% of the league. But I do think now he has reached the point in terms of his age where he has to conserve so much energy on defense. I'm not saying he shouldn't. He should. He should. Right. Just like I said about by the way, which you didn't let me get through on Friday, Aaron Rodgers, the reason I was making that parallel is, like, LeBron, I didn't think he liked getting hit anymore, but it's not that I didn't think he couldn't do it. It's not like I felt like the football was gone. I felt like he was being smart at his age, preserving himself for when he needed to get it done, which he did last night. Right. So I think LeBron's doing the same thing for when high leverage Moments come, he can turn it on. But I'm just saying on a night to night basis, that means he's not what he was even last year. To me.

[B]

Yeah, I think you'd have that opinion. And again, I think that the late start, being able to get in the, using the game to get in shape.

[A]

That'S a good point.

[B]

I think you'll see it better as it goes. I will say this, last night was a better team effort across the board on both sides of the ball. But what I was going to say was this. In my opinion, when you have that level of talent, you still have a puncher's chance. Now as an organization, you have to decide what is this year going to be. That has to be. Or it should be communicated to the, you know, I'm not going to say the entire team, but it should be communicated to definitely your star guys in terms of, hey, we're probably not going to be extremely active at the trade deadline for these reasons. Obviously we got star players signed back. Most people think, oh well, we would be a lot better if LeBron wasn't making 54 million. Well, that's not necessarily true. They probably would have had like 37 million of space if he wasn't at the, at the number. And anything under that would or would have just been like getting the mid level. So some of these things, people don't know the entire business.

[A]

When you have a player who's already on your team and you have the opportunity to overpay, let's say in terms of like what you do it because that's the only way to get extra value in a cap league, if there's a salary cap.

[B]

Well, this was already in the contract.

[A]

So I get it. But I'm saying generally if there's a salary cap and you can allow certain salaries to balloon past the cap, you do that because you will not be able to acquire that into the cap at the same level.

[B]

That's you having the players bird rights. And so that's if you can find that talent and you have their bird rights and then you have other areas to fill, you can feel that, yeah, that's the incentive for having the bird rights. But the point I'm making is you still have a puncher's chance. And when I look at the league, right. I watched the Knicks and the Sixers, which was a great game, great game. And I think that's becoming a thing. The Knicks Sixers is becoming a thing. They probably see each other every year in the playoffs.

[A]

You got Edgecomb Maxey, they got guys on the back court.

[B]

The Brunson and Tyrese was. And this is not being Mr. Bias was special.

[A]

Yeah, agreed.

[B]

Special. And I also thought Embiid played better. Played with a better match.

[A]

Embiid's back.

[B]

Yeah. Now, you know the Knicks are the Knicks. They're gonna be hard fought. It's gonna be tough to beat a Mike Brown team. And I know they lost a few games, but there's still really good in Jalen Brunson's. If the game is close, he can bring you home. I watched the Pistons Cavs. That's shaping up to be another, you know, for many years. Given that it's wild though, it looks like if you teams together, those two.

[A]

Teams feel like they're going in the opposite direction. Even though they're young.

[B]

No, they're not. What are you talking about?

[A]

Even though the Cavs are young. It look. Okay, you have on the Cavs a big who was supposed to be much better than this by now. Who on the Cavs.

[B]

Which big.

[A]

Who could I be talking about? I'm not talking about Alan. I'm not talking about Allen.

[B]

You talking about. Are you crazy?

[A]

He's supposed to be better by now.

[B]

How many years has Evan Mobley been in the league?

[A]

How many years now? 4.

[B]

And he's supposed to be better. How many years did Evan Mobley spend in. In college?

[A]

I'm not talking about if you start from four years ago. I'm talking about if you start from how he looked early last season. He looked like he was a superstar.

[B]

Do you realize yesterday's scores don't tell today's game? Okay, last year I looked better last year, too.

[A]

Neither one of their guards look as good as they did last year. Neither one of their. Like last year, they had two playmakers in the back, four of them and two bigs in the front.

[B]

Every year is different. Max, you have to understand, the point.

[A]

Was last year they always had, because of the way they were using their guys, at least one kind of elitish backcourt playmaking player and one elitish front court defensive player.

[B]

Darius didn't even start the season.

[A]

I understand, but they have not been what you thought could happen from that group. I'm not saying it could never happen. Felt like it was going in the wrong direction.

[B]

Here's what I'll say to that. Schedules are different, momentum changes. You know, when you start off like they did last year, they got off to a great start. You rolling, you coming in confidence. Shots are falling, the ball is spraying different things. You had a full training camp. You came back how they lost to the Celtics the year before coming back how they lost last year when what was the season they had? I think they had three All Stars. Probably should have had four All Stars.

[A]

You had everything middle of last year, Rich. It looked like the two teams that had separated themselves from the rest of the pack were the Thunder in the west and the Cavs in the East. Yes, but they have not separated themselves. They fell back to the pack.

[B]

But there's no two years are the same. And for you to sit here and say that he should be a lot better.

[A]

He's gotten a lot better since last year.

[B]

Just in general.

[A]

No, this is every year that young.

[B]

Man has come back better.

[A]

I would not say Mobley's better this year than last year. Now, if you want to say he's better than he was three years ago. Yes, but that's the point. When you are a Mobley or. And we discussed Lamar earlier in the show, Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen or whatever, you come in with certain expectations. He has potential, whatever. Once you start fulfilling those expectations, you're on a certain trajectory.

[B]

Yeah, but there's a lot.

[A]

The expectations change now. It's readjust now. It's not just getting to this level, it's getting to the next level.

[B]

Max. Not even. Let me ask you this question. Let me explain something to you.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

There's a lot of factors that go into that. A lot of factors that go into that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So again, in the regular season, when you are as good as those teams are, Thunder, Cavs, Thunder came off a championship. Okay. At the end of the day, you're trying to do a couple things. Number one, most important thing, finish the regular season healthy. That's number one. Number two, you're trying to make sure that you're getting the kinks. You know, Coach Atkinson, he one minute this player is out of rhythm, the next minute this player's out of rhythm. You're trying to play your bench and have guys. Sam Merrill's been hurt. Max Struz hasn't even been there. Right. DeAndre Hunter is just now starting a year. Jordan Tyson's coming on right. They changed the starting lineup.

[A]

Four best players, for various reasons, I agree, are not playing to the standard they set last year.

[B]

That's okay.

[A]

And this is at a point in their career where they're supposed to be getting better year over year.

[B]

But here's what I'm saying. You're the type of person that goes crazy on a Tuesday night about one Game.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

I'm the type of person that's saying, okay, what is the. Even though you lost that game last night, what was the positive?

[A]

I'll table this.

[B]

How do you build on that?

[A]

I wanna bring this back to something I wanna talk about later on. So I'll table it.

[B]

And then I watched the Suns. Obviously sons OKC sons won. But what I'm excited about in the NBA is it's just, it's a tremendous amount of parity and I think guys are.

[A]

Look at like you just said, Suns beat the okc.

[B]

I think team, I think there's several teams that are one to one and a half moves away of putting their team in a real position to win. And I just, you know, I'm just.

[A]

I mean, Listen, the job OTs done in Phoenix, he's done a great job. He came from Cleveland, by the way. They're playing like a great college team plays. They're playing together, they're playing defense. They only have one real superstar on the team, but they have other guys who play who two way players who get after it. And you know, like that's the fact that they could win that game against okc and just their record overall and the way they've been playing all year, fast and with intensity, they're like, he's just done an unbelievable job. They don't have the roster to win the championship this year. Yeah, but they, you're right, they're like one or two pieces away.

[B]

Well, two things happen. Matt Ishbia hires a coach and realizes it in real time and say, you know what? That's not the right hire. Let me get a different coach. That's number one. That takes some, you know what's to do that he did it. Now he goes and get Jordan out. Any coach in the league will tell you this. I want my team to have the four E's consistent energy, effort, execution every night out.

[A]

They do that all day.

[B]

But this is what I'm saying, if.

[A]

You just do that, you're going to be competitive.

[B]

You're going to be competitive and you're going to win some games.

[A]

This is Tomlin and Harbaugh. This is the guys we're talking about all the time.

[B]

So that's half the battle now.

[A]

Energy, effort, execution every day, every day, every night.

[B]

Now if you have the other things on top of that star guys, guys that can bring it home, et cetera, then that puts you in a whole other stratosphere.

[A]

Dillon Brooks gets that shot a little better, A little better, A little More consistent with the shot. And he's all world, man.

[B]

As good as OKC was. I guarantee if you watch every game OKC played last year, they had those four E's every night. And then they had Shay. So you have that and then you.

[A]

Have Shay and the Suns got Book.

[B]

Yeah, listen, if you put. We saw when Book had a really good team. He went to the finals.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I got three things I want to get off my chest. Okay. First of all, the Giants are going to pick fifth in the NFL draft. Had they lost, as it turns out, they'd have picked first. Unless the Raiders then would have made sure to lose and they'd pick second. But they're gonna pick first.

[B]

Tell them why you mad, son?

[A]

Here's my problem with the Giants, Rich. It's core incompetence. It's core incompetence. The system is set up to punish the Giants. It is set because it reveals their incompetence. Because any team that is. This happens every year to the Giants. Every year they have an awful season. They are one of the first teams to be eliminated from playoff contention. So now the rest of the season is meaningless. Right. So the fans have nothing. And then right at the end of the season when it's like, at least we'll get the best draft pick right at the end of the season because the winning teams are now resting players for the playoffs. And the bad teams who are responding to the incentives of the draft will tank or play players they know do a version of tanking. The Giants then start winning at the very end and ruin their draft position because the team is to the core incompetent. That's why they're being punished. It happens every single year. Every single year. I saw a tweet yesterday. I'm forgetting who tweeted it, but it was. There's not a team ever that could beat the Giants last two weeks of the season. Right. Like the Giants last two weeks of the season are a tough team to beat because that they stay competitive.

[B]

Like the 85 dolphins.

[A]

It's idiotic. It's idiotic. They stay competitives. Right. When no one else is competitive for various reasons.

[B]

Why do you want the number one pick? Not to.

[A]

Not to draft the number one pick. I love Jackson Dart. Do you understand?

[B]

I just wanted to make sure that's.

[A]

What I was like Kate and Reese and all these guys.

[B]

Yeah, but you wanted to be able to use it to do other things.

[A]

Trade out of it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Back hungry teams. They could. Look, look. It's not impossible that they could wind up with Tate and Reese if they had the number one pick and they trade out of it and they package other stuff together or they can get exactly what they want. That's not going to be the case now. And it happens every single year. Again, I'm not. I don't think Mara is a bad guy. The Mara family's been one of the best in the history of football. He loves football. He knows a lot about it. I don't doubt. But Marin knows enough football to be dangerous to the Giants. Right? Like someone.

[B]

But their guys didn't even play.

[A]

He needs to. Mara needs to recuse himself from like, he needs to stop. But he's not doing that. He is making decisions that affect the. They get rid of the coach. They keep the gm. So now the GM who has not done an outstanding job, by the way. I mean, like, you're paying receivers who you're looking to get rid of later that year, basically because of the lack of production. Literally without neighbors, not a single guy on the team can catch the football. It's like. It's bad. It's bad. They need a secondary. They need a lot. The fact that you are still making decisions like, hey, we're going to keep the GM who made the previous decisions, but get rid of the coach. So now when we get the draft capital. Not as much as we should have had because of. Because we won at the end of the season, as always, he's going to be doing the choosing. Everything about. It's bad. Everything's bad.

[B]

So you had the fifth pick in the draft.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who do you want to take research? Tate.

[A]

That's what I wanted to get to all that other rants you're screaming want both of them. Damn it.

[B]

Yeah. It's like a. You like a. A rock and roll singers. Like, you scream, I'm get you a guitar. It's like with Giants on it.

[A]

They can use you a great linebacker or. Or a great receiver. Either one. I'd be happy with either one, but I wanted more.

[B]

Maybe you get your wish.

[A]

AFC playoff picture. That's one two AFC playoff quarterbacks. No Patrick Mahomes. Now, remember when I told you my late, great brother Sam said when Michael Jordan left the NBA, we're gonna see the parallel universe in the NBA. Like who's the best player in the league? The answer was Hakeem Olajuwon. He's the best player with that team. And in that parallel universe, the Rockets won championships. Then Jordan's best player after that, Scottie Pippen, I thought.

[B]

I thought so, too.

[A]

You did? I thought it was Hakeem and then Pippen. Yeah, but at any rate, those no Mahomes and the Chiefs weren't great this year anyway. What's going to happen? Aaron Rodgers gets into the playoffs over Lamar Jackson. He's competing with the following six quarterbacks. Okay. Josh Allen, Bo Nix, Justin Herbert, Trevor Lawrence, C.J. stroud, Drake May. These are all young, ascending, really good players not yet made their legacy quarterbacks. Now, I know he faces the Texans defense. Rogers does not. CJ Stroud. Really? But for Rodgers at this age to be in this position and have to run that gauntlet.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

No, I mean, like, it's an incredible.

[B]

Situation, but isn't that what's supposed to happen when you play as long as Aaron Rodgers has played? Of course it's going to happen, I guess.

[A]

But the fact that there's no Mahomes, there's no prohibitive favorite now, and that all six of the other quarterbacks are looking to make their legacy and Rodgers.

[B]

Is 42 years old. He's like standing there in front of the doorway.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I mean, look, I think that's how sports is drawn up. I think in.

[A]

In a perfect year. Yeah.

[B]

That's why we love sports. For what you just named and for those guys. For those guys. Even for Lamar last night, if he goes and wins that game.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

He beat Aaron Rodgers.

[A]

Then it would be.

[B]

Then it would be all young and the Pittsburgh Steelers.

[A]

Listen, think about this for a second. One of these guys. Think about the way you perceive one of these players. If Bo Nix wins the super bowl this year, even gets to the Super Bowl.

[B]

I like Bo Nix.

[A]

Now you're not worried about the Broncos anymore. You're like, they got the coach, they got the defensive quarterback.

[B]

By the way, the Broncos uniforms they had on yesterday, those are the ones I love.

[A]

Tough, tough. Steve Atwater, Justin Herbert gets to the Super Bowl. All that stuff is gone with, oh, he can't lead. He's not vocal enough. I want Josh Allen or someone more rah rah than. Than Justin Herbert. If Josh Allen makes the super bowl, it's like finally the anointed one. Because let's be honest, Drake May's been great. And Matt.

[B]

Drake May's been really good.

[A]

He's been great. And Matthew Stafford has been great. The best quarterback in the league this year has been Josh Allen. Like, if we're just being fair, it's been Josh Allen and he's the anointed one. Anyway, everyone sees that he's not a wild take.

[B]

Josh Allen's been great.

[A]

If Trevor Lawrence makes the super bowl.

[B]

He got a grill.

[A]

Trevor Lawrence makes the Super Bowl. Like, he was the biggest quarterback prospect since Andrew Luck, and it was not panning out for him. If he makes the.

[B]

C.J.

[A]

Stroud makes the super bowl with that Texans defense, Drake may. Obviously, it makes the legacy that someone. And if Aaron Rodgers somehow makes the super bowl this year, our entire perception of football is about a change in this AFC playoff run right now.

[B]

Yeah. Well, that's what happens with no Mahomes. And that's great. I love it. Did you see Trevor Lawrence got a grill?

[A]

I didn't.

[B]

The team bought him grills for.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I don't know if he'll wear him, but he got him.

[A]

If Trevor Lawrence come out with gold fronts, no diamonds. Oh, diamonds. Yeah.

[B]

A grill is like.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes. Excuse me.

[B]

Excuse me. Gold fronts is like.

[A]

Yeah. Different.

[B]

Yeah. These are.

[A]

You're talking about like a grill. Grill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like what Lamar wears.

[A]

Yeah. I was thinking about old Dirty Bass. I was thinking, like, Trevor Lawrence coming out with a. With a. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

He may win a Super bowl with a grill. That could be the new thing.

[A]

Like, instead of you joining, like, Disney.

[B]

World, you get a grill.

[A]

Joe Burrow would do it.

[B]

Joe Burrow would definitely do it. With a mink to the floor or chinchilla.

[A]

When he came in with the mink to the. But that was not to the Super Bowl. That was the AFC Championship game against Mahomes. But he won.

[B]

You gotta love him. He's from Ohio.

[A]

Finally. Here's the last thing I wanna talk about. Jaylen Brown dropped 50. Jaylen Brown dropped 50.

[B]

Rich. At the end of a road trip.

[A]

At the end of a road trip.

[B]

Don't forget that.

[A]

Playing defense, the whole. Like this brings who. Okay, so I'm looking at great duos throughout NBA history. And remember when I told you to table the point about the Cavs and the young players and the way they improve? And basically you're saying, max, don't be impatient. There are bumps in the road. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's what I was preaching about Brown and Tatum three or four years ago. Like I was saying at the time, and they've won a championship since then. But I was saying at the time, even if they never win a championship for the next three or four years, like, let's say it hadn't happened, but they continue to make Eastern Conference finals, maybe a final or two, they'll only be 28, 29 years old. @ the end of that, they still might win three or four championships together. My point was I was preaching patience with those.

[B]

Two. Right. I would never break those. If you could stand it.

[A]

Financially.

[B]

Right. I'm not. Because people get.

[A]

Impatient. They're like, oh, they can't get over the.

[B]

Top. And I'm like, what I'm trying to tell.

[A]

You. That's why I said, let's table that. Because I see the wisdom in what you're saying. Okay. But at the moment, it looks like the Cavs to me are going. But in terms of Brown and Tatum, usually in a duo, especially a championship duo, you know who the top guy is? The number one guy. Kareem and Magic. Maybe you could say it flipped as Kareem got older, but that's natural. Right? But in the beginning, it's Kareem, Magic, Jordan, pippen, obviously. Bird, McHale. Right. Even though, like, when. When it flipped in Miami, LeBron, Wade, that's when it started really working. Right? Because LeBron was better. It was. It's been Tatum Brown so far. Tatum Brown. And it can sometimes flip like it was Shaq, Kobe, and then Kobe was ascending as Shaq was getting older. And then by the time it was going to flip, Shaq was out of there. When Tatum gets back, are we sure he's better than Jaylen Brown right.

[B]

Now? Here we go. I'm not. Comparisons are the thief of joy. You know what I'm saying? When Tatum gets back, I like.

[A]

Being a joy thief.

[B]

Sometimes. If he comes back this year, it's not about who's better. It's about, wait a minute. Jaylen Brown has kept this team afloat. He has not been distracted. You guys can talk about the Beijing and all that all you want. You can talk about his streaming. You can talk about all that. That guy understands the assignment. He's had a chip on his shoulder. He showed up. I watch him. He's playing both ends of the floor, and he's making shot after shot. He took on the challenge. It was the end of a road trip. He wanted the team to finish strong. If Jayson Tatum comes back, this is why you don't take seasons for granted. This is why. Because the Boston Celtics could have easily been like, you know what? We're going to play you every eight games, and we're going to do, blah, blah, blah. When I look at you have.

[A]

To build your roster, who's better, Brown or.

[B]

Tatum? Who's better? I like them.

[A]

Both. Me.

[B]

Too. I like them.

[A]

Both. But let me Be the joy thief. You can better Brown or.

[B]

Thief. You can be thief all you want. I'm not getting into that. I like them both. I tell you one.

[A]

Thing. The reason I'm asking is not because I necessarily have an opinion about that yet. I don't know the answer to that.

[B]

Question. Yeah, you need.

[A]

Both. But my point is, Rich, three years ago, I knew the answer to that question. Tatum Brown was excellent. Tatum was your number one. I don't know the answer to that question.

[B]

Anymore. And guess.

[A]

What? That's a good thing for the.

[B]

South. You're not knowing the answer to that question. You know who's smiling? Two people. And their names start with B. Brad Stevens and Bill Simmons. Those two guys. Are you not knowing the answer to that.

[A]

Question? Hey, you're starting a team or you have a team. Right now you're taking Tatum or.

[B]

Brown. I want them to be in consecutive drafts like they were. But here's what I want to say to you. When you get two wings like Tatum and Brown, I look at that almost like. It's almost like when you're picking out an outfit. Jacket, shoes, plush. Now I don't really have to go crazy with my undershirt.

[A]

Or. You like a big two better than a big three.

[B]

Anyway. I always said this, by the way. I like a big two in.

[A]

Depth. Now, you know what? I think I might have an answer to Tatum.

[B]

Brown. But here's what I'm saying. It depends on where those guys are positioned, because sometimes your point guard and your five are the guys. But when you're three and four.

[A]

Or two and three or two, and depending on how you want to call.

[B]

It, or 6, 7, but whatever you want to call it.

[A]

Right? When you have that, yeah, man.

[B]

That'S just a luxury now. It don't matter who's better. You know what matters? How we put pieces around them. And I'll say to Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown, do not fall for the banana in the tailpipe. Don't get into who's better with this media.

[A]

Bs. Yeah, I agree. Don't listen to the media. However. However, I have an answer to it. I have an answer to it. It's a tough one. I can't believe I'm saying it. I'll take Jalen Brown. And the reason I'll take Jaylen Brown is I've seen too many playoff games from Tatum where I didn't feel like he was still the Jayson Tatum that I'm used to.

[B]

Seeing. You got to be out your.

[A]

Mind. He's had too many of those.

[B]

Games. I'll take either.

[A]

One. I'm taking Jalen Brown, by the way. Give me both Tatum's group. Of course, Tatum's. Listen, they already have a championship together. I get it. They have a championship together. I get.

[B]

It. Don't be distracted by who wins final mvp. Don't do any of that. Hey, man, come in here in the.

[A]

Comments. Tatum or Brown? You have number.

[B]

One. Yeah, in the comments. Great. Let them do that. If it's me, some nights it's going to be me. Some nights it's going to be you. But at the end it's going to be us holding up that trophy. Either you're going to have the finals MVP and I'm going to be holding up the championship trophy, or I'm going to be holding up the finals MVP and you're going to be holding up the trophy. The championship trophy. But guess what? We're going to be seeing a banner go up and we're going to be wearing another piece of jewelry is all I would be thinking about. Because I think oftentimes we allow our athletes allow ego and entitlement and their surroundings of people to say it got to be you and it got to be the. And that stunts the growth of players all the time. And so I'm sitting on a different side. And we've lost so many great duos. We've lost the ability to watch them play for several.

[A]

Months. So many great.

[B]

Duos. What you.

[A]

Mean? So many great duos. Kobe and Shaq should have lasted longer. They got three championships, four.

[B]

Finals. They should have lasted longer trips.

[A]

But they should have lasted longer. So many great duos. I don't know. That's one. What else did we lose? However many you go through them, there haven't been that many that broke up because of that. That's what makes this unique.

[B]

Rich. That is not.

[A]

True. Championship duos. There have seldom, if they have.

[B]

Been the top two that close to.

[A]

The match in terms of they just.

[B]

Happen to win a championship. But before they won a championship, people were trying to get them to break up. I'm talking about before guys won a.

[A]

Championship. They didn't get a chance to play, to actually win. So you're talking about. You're talking about maybe Shaq and Penny or it could have been okc, KD and Westbrook or Harden.

[B]

Or. I guarantee, if you go.

[A]

Back. I'm not. Let's talk about guys who've won a championship.

[B]

Though. I get that part. That's why I'm saying, do not be.

[A]

Distracted. But do you see how historically unique this is? It's almost never like this, where a dynamic duo is that close to each other in terms of level that you can't pick a one that you have to say, like one in one A. And I'm not sure what they.

[B]

Should. You know why they won't be distracted? Because Missoula, who I watched play in the Elite Eight at Syracuse and they beat Kentucky with. They beat the John Wall and DeMarcus and Bledsoe team, who's a great coach, Brad. They have a great culture there with my guy Zarin and those guys and Brad. And the key to the Celtics is my guy Sully. And I'm praying for Sully. But that's the key. That's the key. So no Jayden Brown, he deserve his flowers. He deserves to be all NBA, all Star. And I'll tell you another thing, and I know it didn't go the way he wanted. He's also going to deserve to be on that 20, 28 Olympic.

[A]

Team. I think so. I think. And this like, you know, Tatum, when you're watching him, it's hard to think that there's a better guy on his own team than him. But overall, if I were to pick one, I have a different team. I could take one of those guys. I think I'm taking Jaylen.

[B]

Brown. Well, guess what? You don't have to pick one.

[A]

So you got a big reaction to that MJ thing that you brought up about the branding and.

[B]

Everything. I did. But what did you see? Cause I saw different.

[A]

Things. I saw a lot of reactions. This is what I saw. I saw. It was 50 50. And what I see a lot, and I mentioned it earlier in the show, is Rich is the mouthpiece for LeBron. Anytime you say anything about MJ, the perception among a large group is you are doing it to somehow down MJ and pump LeBron up. And you and I, Rich and I argue about MJ, LeBron, who's the greatest all the time, by the way, I think it's MJ decisively. I don't think it's like, this is a tough one. I think LeBron, Kareem and a bunch of other guys, you can talk about who's.

[B]

Next. But I think I told you what I did.

[A]

Before. But my point is we can still talk about it. It's not like he's beating me in the head with LeBron propaganda all the time or something. It's just our opinions. So every time you say something about mj, that's how it's perceived. And I have experienced this in my own career a little where when you say or do something like with me, it may be something politically like people thought that, oh, his politics are left center or left of center, right. And so they have a certain perception. And then I may say something that is perceived as right of center. And so people will somehow twist their brains to think how I'm actually doing this because I'm trying to position something instead of just taking new information and kind of changing a little bit their perception. They try to force what they already think, the narrative they've already constructed. They try to force the evidence into that. And I think that happened to you here, where you said something and people couldn't see what you're actually saying because they're trying to force what you're saying into this. Mitch is just a pro LeBron.

[B]

Narrative. And you know who doesn't think that?

[A]

MJ.

[B]

Right. Because I just played his golf course, Grove 23, which is.

[A]

Insane. So you do the simulator at LeBron's house and then you play MJ's golf.

[B]

Course. I was with him, playing golf, watching him play golf somewhere else. We had a good conversation. I've always had a great relationship with MJ for the last 20 plus years. You know.

[A]

We. Yeah, you're a big Michael Jordan.

[B]

Fan. No, huge. Huge. Every shoe, every colorway, every. Everything. Right, Huge. But in addition to that, I think that's part of it. I think people, when they look at your relationship with somebody and they look at the person next to the athlete and they say, oh, he wouldn't be nothing without that guy. They have that mentality. And I'm overly gracious for not only the opportunity that LeBron has given me, but all my guys have given me. Right. But starting there. But then they equate that with, oh, you can't have your own opinion on things, and so on and so forth, which is just crazy. But in this case, I was actually making a different point and I was actually saying how great of a brand was built and why it was built that way. And I couldn't necessarily articulate certain things with certain words because I was. I saw a guy online and he said like, well, Rich is using the code because what he really wants to say is this. And, you know, we have an elevated platform. And I'm, you know, I'm trying to not be so blunt. Matter of fact. So what I did was, you.

[A]

Could deny that with a double breasted.

[B]

Jacket, but I will say all that is good I think all of that is a good thing because you need people back and forth. But what I did and what I understand is some people are visual.

[A]

Learners.

[B]

Okay. Okay. So I want to bring out my.

[A]

Whiteboard. The return of the whiteboard. You brought this.

[B]

Up. Yes, I want to bring out my whiteboard, and I'm going to take just five minutes to break down why, because we were talking about the brands of athletes. What were the actual brands of athletes? The best brands of athletes, whatever the question was. And I want to bring out my whiteboard to show why I believe that Michael Jordan has the greatest athlete brand ever. And it will never be touched, because Tiger made a lot of money, obviously.

[A]

LeBron. Tiger is a guy we didn't mention. That's.

[B]

Right. Yeah. They built massive brands, but no one has built the brand of Michaels. And.

[A]

There'S. And you're gonna do this visually and there's. All right, so we don't need to. We don't need you to write the whole.

[B]

Thing. No, no, no.

[A]

No. We'll just. We'll just do the magic of editing.

[B]

Yeah. And I got it.

[A]

Baked. All.

[B]

Right. But. But. But there's several different components to why. And that's all I was trying to explain because you said that it was 80% or 90% basketball. Yeah. And I'm saying. Wait a minute, Max, you're missing a lot here. And it may be a little bit deeper than what people.

[A]

Think. Muhammad Ali had the biggest sports brand in the world, and that was he. And his advertising stuff was a mess. His endorsement deals were a mess. He did it because he knocked out, you know, he beat Sonny Liston. Joe Frazier knocked out George Foreman. Michael Jordan's brand is what it is because he's the.

[B]

Best. But what did Muhammad Ali wear that actually translated to culture.

[A]

Right? No, it's not that kind of.

[B]

Party. You go out wearing boxing shorts or shoes to church or to skating or to dinner or to the movies. Nothing. Yeah. And it's the same way in football. For as big as Deion was, and Deion had some of the best shoes, he actually was a football player that built a brand. When he didn't play in his diamond turfs, he played in cleats, but they took the cleat that he wore from a actual sneaker. That is.

[A]

Insane. All right, so you want to do this on the.

[B]

Whiteboard? I want to do something on the.

[A]

Whiteboard. So let's do the magic of.

[B]

Editing. Bring the whiteboard.

[A]

Out. All right.

[B]

Whiteboard. That was.

[A]

Fast. That was.

[B]

Fast. Yeah. Okay. So.

[A]

Max.

[B]

Yeah. Are you a visual learner or did you understand what I was.

[A]

Saying? I understand what you're.

[B]

Saying. Okay, fine. So for the visual learners, we have Brand Jordan or Michael Jordan. At this time, Michael Jordan had two really, really, really great partners. One in Nike of many. But these are two I chose and the other one in.

[A]

Gatorade.

[B]

Okay. Now, from a marketing perspective, they told two of the greatest stories. Nike Air. I believe I can fly if you put these shoes on. They had people jumping off garages, jumping.

[A]

Rich. I had a pair of Jordans, like the Jordan Threes. You never saw someone with less hops than especially me at 13 or whatever, getting this high off the ground with my tongue out of my.

[B]

Mouth. But did you feel like you can.

[A]

Fly?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Great. Yes, I.

[B]

Did. From a Gatorade perspective, it was the field to win. And it was Gatorade that created the lullaby. Like Mike. If I could be like Mike. Exactly.

[A]

Right. Had the whole world trying to be like.

[B]

Mike. So what's the importance in those two things? Not only is it the product of hydration, the product of footwear, et cetera, it's also the media spin to really push these campaigns. They're pushing it. And at a time where we didn't have social media, people didn't have computers in their house in abundance, there wasn't much. You had sports. And he was at the forefront of it. Right then you have the NBA, like all eyes on me. All eyes on Mike. It was clear it was him and it was everybody.

[A]

Else.

[B]

Yeah. There was no if, ands or buts about that. Right. That's the other thing. This is one that it's a.

[A]

Little touching, the timing crack epidemic. What does that.

[B]

Mean? Yes, because the timing, not just the crack epidemic, but also hip hop. When you think about the first influencers, the first influencers were guys like the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. What shoes did he.

[A]

Wear? This is getting back to what you said. And you used me as an example because I was sitting in front of you. But you said, it's not that Michael Jordan did this, it's that the influencer who had the BMW or whatever you said, like Max with the fly girl and the BMW. So you're saying what I was.

[B]

Saying was the influencer in the.

[A]

Neighborhood. In the.

[B]

Neighborhood. Especially in the black.

[A]

Community. In the neighborhood. The crack epidemic wound up concentrating wealth in a few people who could floss in front of the.

[B]

Neighborhood. Yeah. Because these people had basically not even careers or high paying jobs. They just had hustles. So now when you bring forth the crack epidemic, it created a revenue stream amongst a group of consumers that, number one, would have never had that dollar to spend, and they damn sure wouldn't have had it to spend excessively. So when you add. When.

[A]

You. And you're saying because crack was more accessible, cheaper, et cetera, it had a different effect than, say, heroin, which, because it's not like the drug trade.

[B]

Wasn'T always there, but that was a different time. In the 70s, people wore shoes.

[A]

And suits and pants, not jeans and.

[B]

Sneakers. In the late 80s and 90s, people wore sneakers. So now you're. When I'm talking about the timing of it, not just the actual being able to. The excessiveness from a dollar. Right. Because you're creating this dollar. But at the same time, it's also the thing of choice. The actual thing of.

[A]

Choice. Because the idea of, like social media.

[B]

Influencer.

[A]

Yes. Is that what you're saying is pre social media influencer. There were still social influencers. They just weren't. There just wasn't any social.

[B]

Media. And then when you talk about what they call product seeding or product placement, what they did extremely well was every guy who was somebody on a show, they placed the product. So we didn't. You couldn't see it on Instagram. So where'd you see it? Tv. Oh, I saw on this episode of the Fresh Prince or this episode of. Of Martin. And then you heard it in the music. Oh, and then on my way to school, I not only saw. Because many people wasn't seeing the games the Bulls played on wgn, by the way. And it wasn't like I could.

[A]

Watch the Bulls if it was nationally televised or if they played the.

[B]

Knicks. That was.

[A]

It. That's.

[B]

It. Because your local feed. Right. But I did get to see, in my case, my Uncle Lance or, you know, Bernard Sawyer, just different people that. In my neighborhood that had. So now I'm influenced by that. And I love Michael Jordan. So now I want. Not only because Mike is wearing them, but I also want them because these guys are wearing them too. And when you. When you created that, that's how you. He created the greatest athlete brand ever. Because Michael Jordan didn't share the market, he controlled the market. There's a difference between the two. Most athletes have a market share. He controlled the market so much. So when people had children, they bought. My little cousin came home in the booties. Right. This has been things for generations. And what happens is the i95 is what they call the Gold coast of footwear. When you do shoe deals, and this doesn't exist anymore because some one person busted the market. It didn't matter about small business anymore. New York, New York, Philly, the DMV area, all the way up to Boston. That's the Gold Coast. So when we used to do shoe deals, I personally used.

[A]

To. Not down to Atlanta and.

[B]

Down. Not really. No, not down to Atlanta. It stops right at the dmv. But I used to. I used to put a higher premium on if I had a guy landing those markets. It's changed today. But I knew that thing that influenced everything. So what happened was, why you think they went east to those mom and pop stores to be able to, you know, position the product and then that spread it back west. Fashion goes from east to west. We're influenced by Europe, and it comes across. Right. It's the same way. So that's all I was trying to help people understand, but I know some people are visual learners, so I wanted to bring.

[A]

This. Super interesting, by the way, but. So I love it. But I think people are reacting to something else Rich. Well, first of all, they have a certain idea about you, so they think, oh, he's just trying to diminish Jordan.

[B]

Somehow. And Pump up the rock. Never.

[A]

Diminish. But this is how I would articulate it. Jordan gets Nike Air. I believe I can fly. Because when you watch Jordan and I know I'm in the minority, the best dunker ever is Vince Carter or it's Gerald or Gerald Wilkins or it's Dominique Wilkins or whoever. Back in the day, Jordan looked different when he jumped in the air. Of course, Kobe didn't look the same. No one looked like Jordan. To the point where I remember SI did an article, and I think it was a cover story, but they talked to physicists to see if it's possible that some people can hang in the air longer than others. And they were like, no, it's just your vertical leap. Like how that's. But the point is, it's the silhouette. The way he looked when he went was different because. Because he could shoot the ball on the way down. So his hang time.

[B]

Looked. But it's also a proportionate from a body perspective. Shoulder width, arm length, arm, you know, chest depth, all those.

[A]

Things. It looked right balance. But that's. That's not the first.

[B]

Thing. That's not fuel to.

[A]

Win. Like Mike, he was the most competitive athlete ever. Ever. Stephen A. Once told me a story about Jordan, which is like. I would describe it as competition porn. Okay. In the sense that, well, Jordan Used to do certain things. I won't mention what but to antagonize opposing players before. Before the biggest games. And my initial reaction to that was, of course you're trying to get under their skin because you know a mad athlete is not going to be at their best. It gives you an advantage. That's what Ali used to do. Muhammad Ali would get under Sonny Liston skin or George Foreman. Make them make tactical mistakes, make them angry, whatever. That's the idea. Unnerve them. That's not what Jordan did that for. Jordan did it because he wanted to make the dude mad so that dude could be at his best. So that dude could be as motivated as possible to beat mj. So that when MJ beat him, he knew the other guy knew. And MJ knew I beat your best. That's like soul snatching. I've never heard of something that competitive. Never fuel to win like Mike. I believe I can fly. Those things are not being manufactured by their partners in the and a narrative and now mapping it onto Jordan. They're coming organically from what's real. The reason Jordan dominated the marketplace, you said he controlled it. No one was even close to him. He put the. The only basketball player I've seen respect to everyone who's come since then, including Kobe and everyone who put that distance between himself and the rest of the league was LeBron. And I don't think LeBron put the same amount of distance, but he put. It was.

[B]

Like. Well, it.

[A]

Wasn'T. I thought like he. He was clearly better than everybody else. Yeah, but Jordan was so much better than everybody.

[B]

Else. Max, for this particular board, this is about branding and the footwear aspect of it. There's never been an athlete who you had to change the date that the shoes came out because kids were skipping.

[A]

School.

[B]

Yeah. By the way, I had to walk past a guy named Will Parker's house at 6:30 at night with my. And there was a side door on Tusker on 123rd. And I'd known Will since I was a kid. But you never know what he might have been on that day.

[A]

Right. Not to mention he wanted to keep those.

[B]

Jordans. Not to mention every car that rode down the street you had to be suspicious of because I may have to hit this cut. I may have to. So I'm walking from where I lived from Scottwood with the kicks, with my shoes on. I'm walking. It's the wintertime. So it's, you know, like you gotta walk in the path where it's no Snow. You know, the storefront owners, they're not shoveling the entire front way. They're shoveling just enough for you to get in their store and get out. So you can't sue them if you fall. And I have to walk in that. And I'm trying to get from Scottwood to 125th in Arlington. This is a very dangerous walk with these on at this time. Because the other thing I have to hope is somebody recognized as actually me. So all these things come into play lines down the street. I used to go to the mall when it closed before the release date, so I could then go when everyone was lined up to get theirs. I would walk in with mines already. This is things I thought about as a kid. And I paid extra for this type of stuff. So what I'm saying is that impact, that effect. There's been two mythological people. Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan. Right. So the point I was making was exactly that. That's not a slight to.

[A]

Anybody. Do you know how I used to get new Jordans? Cause my mother was like, you know, that's whatever $100 sneaker or whatever it was at the time. Boy, I had to wear those until they fell apart. One pair of sneakers, not like a bunch of.

[B]

Them.

[A]

Yeah. So I would pretend.

[B]

That. But.

[A]

That'S. So I would pretend that my foot was growing even though it wasn't. I'm like, ma, these things. And I would wind up with a sneaker a size and a half too.

[B]

Big. Every kid did that. But here's the thing. When I also talk about timing.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. If you think about how hard that is today, timing, the basketball shoe is no longer the lifestyle.

[A]

Shoe. Which is why it was back then.

[B]

Though. It was back then. Today I'm wearing new barrels. There's no if, ands, or buts about.

[A]

It. All that.

[B]

Is. That's my.

[A]

Take. This is free game. Everybody is free.

[B]

Game. Free.

[A]

Game. And by the way, all you gotta do is subscribe. And by the way, game over. Max Kellerman. Rich. Paul Rich is putting you on.

[B]

Game. I had a little bit of this conversation last night with John Morant, and I'll tell him again. Stay locked in. Because right now, currently, today, he has the best signature shoe on the.

[A]

Market. So if the right thing happens.

[B]

With him, well, it's just like. That's just your focus. Most people don't get. I tell athletes all the time, when you get a great business partner, I don't care what brand it's from. When you get a great business partner, that's willing to. Because there's one thing about the dollar that they pay you. Right. It's another thing about the dollar that they're going to spend to continue to tell your story and continue to create brand awareness for all you athletes out there that have great brand partners, be a great pro, embrace them, lean into that. Because it don't. The other. The other stuff don't matter. Right. You need. You need. Maybe if you just get two, one, if they're do. If they're big enough. Two, three. You don't need 40. If you got 40 different partners, you don't. It's.

[A]

Impossible. It's like having no.

[B]

Partnership. You don't need.

[A]

That. You need the right ones. That's all super interesting. And I mean that. I think what people are reacting to with you and doing that is what is. And I talk about this in boxing. In boxing, you can't promote a genuine super fight into existence. Oh, these are two really good fighters. Let's put a lot of marketing dollars behind it and make the way it works is the dust settles in an era. There's Ali, there's Frazier, there's Mayweather, there's Pacquiao. Right. That's how it works. The two top guys at the end of the. There's Sugar Ray Leonard, there's Marvin Hagler. Those are the super fights. And that's the. No matter what story you tell or how you market or who your partners are, those are the super.

[B]

Fights.

[A]

Yeah. And I think what people were reacting to is it sounds as though you were saying this. You're really describing what happened and why. It was like the perfect storm. Yes, but what's underneath it all? Cause, like, this didn't happen for Muhammad Ali. Right. Muhammad Ali is the biggest athlete on earth and this didn't happen for.

[B]

Him. But it.

[A]

Couldn'T. Because boxing is not. I get it. But still, like the.

[B]

Advertising. What happened for George.

[A]

Foreman. Yeah. Years later with the grill. But the point is, I think that this all happens only when people understand, man, we're looking at something we might never see again. This is so elevated. Right. Vision, then everything. Then you get the best partners. Because everyone wants to be in business with you now. You still gotta make a lot of good.

[B]

Decisions. Well, that's the other.

[A]

Thing. Which he.

[B]

Did. But that's the other thing. Also, team matters. Because if you're taking somebody and expecting them to do this just because you've known them for a long time, that's also not true. That's not true. So what I'd Be trying to. Because I lived by the way I lived.

[A]

It.

[B]

Right. I'm telling you right now, Max, the rooms that I was allowed in, the rooms that I worked in, the experience I gained. I don't care what Ivy League scholarship you have or diploma you have, it don't matter. You're not getting.

[A]

This. And actually, you're part of the team of the next biggest brand since.

[B]

Jordan.

[A]

Yeah. And LeBron had the.

[B]

Big. I know what we did right, and I also know what we did.

[A]

Wrong. And I think that it would be fair to say that the reason that's. You can mess it up.

[B]

Too.

[A]

Yes. But the reason it's that big is because LeBron is that good. Right. Like, what it has to start with is the quality of the player. 100% has to be the quality of the.

[B]

Player. There's no doubt about that. It starts.

[A]

There. So Ja can do things like maybe you're hoping, oh, he could be like Iverson or something like that, but Josh, Brandon. Never going to be Jordan or LeBron because he's not on that.

[B]

Level. But by the way, we had that conversation, and I said, you may not get to a billion, but you can get to five, six, hundred.

[A]

Million. That's not a bad.

[B]

Neighborhood. No. And that's the thing. We have to quit trying to always. Oh, if he didn't do this at the same way, then. No, that's not the case. Because if you walk into a grocery store, there's Coca Cola, there's Pepsi, there's Dr. Pepper, there's Mr. Pibb, there's Faygo, Go and do. By the way, there's Poppy, which.

[A]

I'm a Poppy fan, but with the digestive stuff and everything. Just give me your. No, no.

[B]

No. Poppy's great. No, no.

[A]

No. I.

[B]

Know. I've had.

[A]

It. I've had it. I don't need everything with the. With the.

[B]

Probiotics. No. Yes, you.

[A]

Do. Come on.

[B]

Already. I'll get you some. But what I'm saying is all of those brands have a different value.

[A]

And. But more brand value. Tatum or.

[B]

Brown? Here you.

[A]

Go. Well, I tell you, Kellerman.

[B]

Rich. More brand value. Giants or Browns.

[A]

Oof. Less brand.

[B]

Value. No, I'm with my.

[A]

Browns. I'm with my Brown.

[B]

Value.

[A]

Yeah. You were in a race for the.

[B]

Bottom. We're going to have a good.

[A]

Max. What's.

[B]

That? There's a lot to be. I told you. Positivity in.

[A]

2026.

[B]

Positivity. We're going to have good drafts.

[A]

Yeah. I'd like us to have Reese and Tate, and now it's going to be Reese and.

[B]

Tate. Now you can't have.

[A]

Both. Well, now we can't have both because we. All right, listen, you ready to do this on.

[B]

Wednesday? Yeah, let's do.

[A]

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