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Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
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Max Kellerman
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Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
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Max Kellerman
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Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
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Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
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Max Kellerman
Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about tremphya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremphyaradio.com. So you know, I was thinking about scheduling because these playoffs, they don't give them, they give them one day when they're switching cities. You get one day. They don't really have a travel day. And I think it shows up. Yeah, I think showed up tonight, I
Rich Paul
thought, yeah, scheduling matters, I think. Look, I've been a lot of, I've been a part of a lot of playoff series. It's a series, it's a seven game series for a reason. You punching, you get punched back. You get punched, you have to punch back. I thought in tonight's game there were moments of frustration by the Spurs. I thought there were times where they turned the ball over carelessly and you know, you can't do that type of stuff on the road. Obviously you don't shoot as well on the road as you do at home sometimes.
Max Kellerman
Was it fatigue related to.
Rich Paul
Look, everyone's tired, man.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, but everyone's tired for someone like Wemby. They put him on a minutes restriction all year. He averaged under 30 minutes a game.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
Now all of a sudden they're making him play. Of course you have to much more than he's played. And I saw him in the fourth quarter tonight and I thought he was getting ready to take over the game when the ball went out of on Chet's foot and then they huddled up. It looked like the refs might review the call, but then they didn't. And then they didn't give the spurs the challenge. Yes, I saw a shot of Wemby at one second and you know, like all athletes he's looking for motivation wherever he can find it. He hates Chet, right? And. And I'm like, ooh, he's about to give him the business. And he tried, but he just lacked the coordination. He looked tired.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
And so. So that guy. So on top of everything else, it's just wa. You know, everyone has to travel. You're right. But I think it is. It's especially bad for Wemby given the, like, where he is in his career, what his minutes have been, how much he's playing right now, all that.
Rich Paul
Look, no one's going to give any sympathy for that. And tired. Tired.
Max Kellerman
They don't deserve it, and he doesn't want that.
Rich Paul
Tired, doesn't tire, doesn't make an excuse. It's game five of the Western Conference finals, so I can't talk about being tired. Everyone's tired. This is where you dig down deep, you know? This is why you do the training in the summertime. This is why he went to see the monks, to mentally get over that. You know, that. That fatigue. If the body is telling you one thing, your mind is telling you something different. That's part of the process.
Max Kellerman
You go see those monks. We grew up on the same kung fu flicks. He. He should be able to walk straight up a wall by now.
Rich Paul
No, no.
Max Kellerman
You know, that's what happens. You go see those monks again, and then, you know, you're hanging upside down,
Rich Paul
watch the floor, that game, and you're
Max Kellerman
climbing up those walls.
Rich Paul
OKC made shots tonight they didn't make in game four in San Antonio.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, you're right. And also, the spurs couldn't throw it in the ocean.
Rich Paul
And I also think, look, that's why you make adjustments. Dagenaut made an adjustment. I imagine Mitch comes back and make an adjustment. This is what heavyweight bouts are about.
Max Kellerman
But, you know, like, okay, so you and I are traveling back from San Antonio.
Rich Paul
Well, I was traveling back from San Antonio. You decided to take an American flight that got canceled.
Max Kellerman
Okay, fine, fine.
Rich Paul
And then you had to get on my Delta flight.
Max Kellerman
I should have known to get back
Rich Paul
home when I told you to fly Delta to begin with. Go ahead.
Max Kellerman
This is a true story. You told me, hey, get on this Delta flight. But I'd already had the ticket booked through my manager's office. So I'm like. So I'm like, okay. Through Michael's. So I'm like, okay, I already got the ticket. Whatever. It'll be fine.
Rich Paul
I get.
Max Kellerman
I get a text from American. Like, it must have been midnight or so. It Was like, you know, late night. The flights taking off in a few hours canceled. So luckily there was a seat left on Delta.
Rich Paul
Yeah.
Max Kellerman
So I grabbed that.
Rich Paul
It's canceled for weather.
Max Kellerman
What weather? Same weather. Delta they're flying in. Delta has its own weather, which was great. Pretty good, Ed. Yeah, pretty good. I got Delta.
Rich Paul
Fantastic. Got your own clouds to fly in.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. Own everything. Pretty cool. Yeah, I knew that already, but I know just from. In terms of travel and everything. Okay. I know it's different for NBA players. They have their own chartered flights and the whole thing. But, you know, you're not getting much sleep on that on that day. You know, I'm going on two hours sleep. I, you know, but it's not like you.
Rich Paul
It's not like you traveling from some west coast Western Conference games. Could be.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, it's not the same.
Rich Paul
Could be Portland to Memphis. That's a long way.
Max Kellerman
I mean, I made that flight without, you know, and okay, fine. I didn't have to. He has to play a game the day after. But still. Anyway, I thought that. I think, I think fatigue hurt the spurs tonight.
Rich Paul
I think you could be tired, but also.
Max Kellerman
And the Thunder's depth, the role players. Well, you know what? Let's get into this.
Rich Paul
Let's do it.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. This is called the cold open, but we're ready to start the actual show. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. Game over at Spotify.com 424-240-8341. Leave a voicemail. We're actually going to play. Someone finally left an intelligible voicemail. We can actually hear the voicemail. So we're going to play at least one voicemail today. Yeah.
Rich Paul
Let's do it.
Max Kellerman
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Rich Paul
When we're talking about this series again, I've been a part of a lot of series. When I think about tonight's game, sometimes there's moments within the game that are deflating, very deflating. And I feel like in this game tonight they just started compounding for the Spurs.
Max Kellerman
You come out in the third quarter
Rich Paul
just overall the entire game not making the shots that you normally would make.
Max Kellerman
Lot of mid ranges. Were they were bricking them? Yes.
Rich Paul
Then the ball goes off of Chet's foot. Mitch calls for the challenge. The refs don't see it.
Max Kellerman
Hold on. Go before that. Clear goaltend. You could see goaltending, by the way. Everyone could see that in real time.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
And they don't call it. That's a two point swing.
Rich Paul
Well, two series before that. De' Aaron gets fouled on the drive. They don't call it. And then goes on the other end and files McCain on the floor. They call it a shot and the. And one.
Max Kellerman
And those three possessions that we just spoke about. It was like a six point swing where it was. I think it was like 11. It should have been like 5 and instead it was, you know.
Rich Paul
Yeah, but.
Max Kellerman
Or maybe it was eight and it
Rich Paul
should have been still in all of that. You're on the road. You down 10 to start the fourth quarter.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
Given how they were playing, they're actually right where they want to be. You're down 10 to start the fourth quarter. So now if we can be down 6 with 5 minutes to go. With 6 minutes to go, you're in reach. And it just didn't go their way tonight. But you regroup, you readjust. Gotta remember that's still the OKC Thunder.
Max Kellerman
And you know why? It was defending champs the OKC Thunder tonight. I know McCain and other guys had what the reason. When I think of OKC last year, I was like, how's anyone going to beat this team? Because they were rolling the league and Chet wasn't even playing. They were going to get Chet back. I was like, oh my God, you're going to parachute this dude onto this team. Who's going to beat them? But these playoffs, especially in this series, where's Chet been tonight? He showed up right when Chet is himself, the OKC Thunder, they are a formidable team. Without him, they're just a kind of typical powerhouse Western Conference team. But when he's really playing well, they're very, very tough to beat.
Rich Paul
Yeah, yeah, listen, it's not going to be easy to beat the OKC Thunder.
Max Kellerman
And you're going to have to shoot it like, listen, you got to beat him.
Rich Paul
You have to beat him.
Max Kellerman
Champagne and Kelden.
Rich Paul
And Kelden actually played better, but he
Max Kellerman
didn't shoot it well. And de' Aaron, they. And then. Because the problem is Castle and this is the structural problem the spurs have and they're going to have it going forward. The Achilles heel is two players who are going to see a lot of minutes and especially high leverage minutes. And our foundational pieces are not good shooters. Harper and Castle. Right.
Rich Paul
Yet.
Max Kellerman
Yet, Right. And you're thinking they will develop the shooters.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
But they're going to have to have nights where they shoot it better than they shot it tonight.
Rich Paul
Well, that's. Listen, at the beginning of the series, we talked about each conference. There was one word for each conference. What was the word in the Western Conference? I said.
Max Kellerman
See, if I would have said it, I would remember exactly.
Rich Paul
You would. It was shooting.
Max Kellerman
Bullshit. Bullshit. My line.
Rich Paul
Bullshit. Bullshit. It was shooting.
Max Kellerman
Shooting.
Rich Paul
Because I. Because I thought that's the one advantage that OKC did have.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, 100%. And it showed up tonight.
Rich Paul
And Pressy double shooting piece by going to get a McCain.
Max Kellerman
Yep.
Rich Paul
He doubled down on it. And so. But we've seen the best shooting team in the world go cold in the fourth quarter in 2016. So you just have to beat. You just have to beat them.
Max Kellerman
I was listening to like Reggie Miller made the point and I think a lot of basketball heads make the point that this very sloppy game. And. And it's like you don't normally blame teams when they're missing shots because you figure that was a good look, it was a smart shot to take. It just didn't go in. Yeah, it's like that. But sloppy play, you should have more control over. But Rich, sometimes I feel like that's true. And when. And you can criticize the sloppy play because it's. But also you got to hit shots. No, like you can't. You can't. Like if. If the spurs lose, it will be because of the shooting.
Rich Paul
It's a make or miss league. Yeah, they know that. Thunder knows that and we know that.
Max Kellerman
Even when. Yeah, well.
Rich Paul
Right, let's move on to Game 6.
Max Kellerman
Also, Wemby, the way they were using them early in the game by this change in the second half. But he won't get any touches.
Rich Paul
Yeah, he.
Max Kellerman
Why wouldn't he get Wemby some touches? He's eight feet tall.
Rich Paul
Yeah, you want to get off to a better flow. I think it was just how the game started. It was only down 2 to go into the second quarter. So.
Max Kellerman
Believe it or not, Rich, you know, I feel like Wemby. I know it's not. I know it's not what I'm about to say, but it gives me a similar feeling. When LeBron first got to Miami and he was deferring to D. Wade, you could see it wasn't right. Yet. Wemby is at the point of his career as a very team oriented player. He's. It's not that he's afraid to impose himself. Like when check gets under his skin, he wants to make a point. He has taken over a couple of games at home, right. I wish he was a little more selfish in this series like Wemby. There are times where I feel like his get a little closer to the basket, you know, on offense, I know that's not always the way, but like, you know, get a little closer to the basket and impose yourself a little more.
Rich Paul
Yeah, I don't, I don't think you're saying anything that, that they don't think. I think they think the same thing. Be a little bit more selfish. Even his teammates, they would love to see him probably be a little bit more selfish, right? They would love to probably have him get cleaner looks. Right. And I think that comes with being able to, you know, have them positioned in different spots on the floor to where he's simplifying the workload and things like that. But yeah, I think Wimby has to have at least 20 field goal attempts.
Max Kellerman
And how many you have in the first half?
Rich Paul
It wasn't many. I think it was like maybe a couple. Yeah, five maybe. I don't know.
Max Kellerman
I don't even think so. Like, I was, I was in the first quarter, I was like, what's going on?
Rich Paul
But you go back, you look at the film and you come back ready to go. If you okc, you're like, you know what? We don't want a Game seven. We don't want a Game seven. When you're in this type of situation, you do not want a Game seven because a Game seven for jump shooting team as good as okc. It just takes a cold night, man. You don't want a Game seven.
Max Kellerman
I was talking to Jacoby before the, before the show and he raised a kind of a simple and an obvious but I think correct question, which is considering role players, the old saying goes, play better at home in these kind of games, right? Did if the, if. If everyone holds serve and the Thunder wind up winning because they defend home court, did they win this series in the regular season?
Rich Paul
Did who?
Max Kellerman
The Thunder? Because if, if everyone's just going to win at home, if no one's going to win a Road game Thunder going to win the series.
Rich Paul
Well, the regular season that they had won in the series. Just right. Yeah. Because they didn't win home court. They didn't win the regular season against the Spurs.
Max Kellerman
No, no. But I'm saying because the record in that they have home court.
Rich Paul
Yeah, that's the importance of it.
Max Kellerman
I think maybe. I think maybe that's right.
Rich Paul
Could be.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. Chet. I mean, Chet finally had a good game. He's not a role player, but guys like McCain and you know, Jalen Williams played better tonight.
Rich Paul
I told you he wouldn't miss the shots that he missed in San Antonio.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, yeah, you did say that.
Rich Paul
Yeah.
Max Kellerman
You think it's going seven?
Rich Paul
I do, Yeah. I think it's going seven.
Max Kellerman
I know what this sounds like because I picked the spurs in the series and I. Let me just say. I'll preface it by saying shooting is by far. If the spurs lose, it's because they don't shoot it well enough. The refs, to me, are calling it straight up and down in San Antonio. Meaning San Antonio's not getting friendly whistles at home, but they're getting straight up and down in okc. Maybe it's coincidence, but, man, like, early in the series, there was a lot of missed calls. Shay was getting a lot. And tonight there were a lot of missed calls.
Rich Paul
Yeah, there were a lot of missed calls. There was a lot of missed calls tonight. But I know it was a big game. It's a big series. You know how I know? Because I saw my guy Ted Kirby tonight at the Gang. And you know when you. When you have signature athletes, like signature shoe guys playing the big dogs come out. So Ted was there tonight. I saw him there tonight. I was talking to him after the game. That normally don't happen. If it would. If you don't have a lot on the line for this series, it's a lot on the line for this series.
Max Kellerman
You know what's, what's great about the NBA right now? The. One of the strengths of the NBA is that the best team almost always wins the championship because it's a best of seven series. Right. So the best team almost. Not every year. Some years you might be like, I think this team was better. It was an injury, it was this, it was that. Most years you're like, best team.
Rich Paul
You don't feel the same way in college.
Max Kellerman
No.
Rich Paul
Because one and done. One and done.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. Anything could happen. That's why. That's why. But.
Rich Paul
Or like a cold shooting night, a
Max Kellerman
lot of times the best team doesn't win the super bowl, they got hot at the right time. They were, you know, and it's because it's also like college. It's one and done.
Rich Paul
Yeah.
Max Kellerman
The nature of football, you can't have a series.
Rich Paul
Well, you got weather. There's a lot of.
Max Kellerman
Baseball is too random. Baseball, baseball. A lot of times the best team's not going to win. It's the way it goes. It's the nature of the game. But the nature of basketball.
Rich Paul
My Indians didn't win in 95 or 97. Yeah, they were best team.
Max Kellerman
But the nature. They could have pitched it a little better. They could hit it. But the nature of basketball and the number of games you play means the. But. But the flip of that is it kind of ruins the playoffs a little bit or has in the past because you have a very strong sense heading in who's going to win it or what. Two, maybe three teams will be there at the end. That has changed in recent years, like going into these playoffs. If you would have told me that I think the Knicks should be favored in the Finals no matter who comes out of the West, I'd be. Come on, man. No, favored. But at this point, I think that's the. And that's happened in recent years where it's been difficult to predict or more than it used to be, who's going to win the whole thing.
Rich Paul
Well, I think in recent years, so many different things happened during the course of the playoffs that it was hard to predict one thing.
Max Kellerman
What? Injuries.
Rich Paul
You mean injuries?
Max Kellerman
Yeah, there have been a lot of injuries in the playoffs.
Rich Paul
Injuries. Again, the journey that you take, the seedings that you get, which sides you get matched up on, that matters.
Max Kellerman
Okay. But in the Knicks, OKC case, if they meet, I might like the Knicks. But partly that is because partly it's because the way the Knicks are playing, partly it's because OKC is something less than 100%. And the Knicks, knock wood, have been healthy. They've been healthy and that's a big thing.
Rich Paul
They play.
Max Kellerman
But the spurs are healthy. Like. And if the Knicks play the Spurs, I think I would still maybe take the Knicks.
Rich Paul
Spurs are somewhat healthy. They're not fully healthy.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, the Knicks are healthier.
Rich Paul
Knicks are healthier. But this leads me, Max.
Max Kellerman
Yes.
Rich Paul
To a get rich quick about the Knicks.
Max Kellerman
All right, I'm all ears.
Rich Paul
Because let me tell you something. The Knicks have been knocking on the door for the last couple years. They had some unfortunate injuries and then
Max Kellerman
after decades of not even being near the door.
Rich Paul
That's okay. Yeah.
Max Kellerman
Right. They were down. They had to hop the train to take the bus, to take a cab, to get up the block, to get to the door.
Rich Paul
But let me tell you why they're here, all right? The Knicks decided to take a non traditional route to get to the promised land, to put them in a position to win a championship. And it was looking a little murky, it was looking a little bleak, but they decided to stay the course. And when you take a non traditional route, you do non traditional Things like trade 5 first round picks from Mikal Bridges that you have been going crazy about.
Max Kellerman
If the Knicks win the whole thing, I have to take that all back. Yes, but it would do it for a chip.
Rich Paul
But it was non traditional, actually. Going to get Jalen Brunson was non traditional. Not trading for Donovan Mitchell was non traditional because everyone would chase the normal name, the bigger name in that case.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
Going to get a guy like an
Max Kellerman
Oompa Loompa backcourt with those two, though.
Rich Paul
No, I'm saying they didn't do it. Going to get a guy like OG training for Carl Anthony Towns firing Tibbs after hiring Tibbs and bringing in Mike Brown. All these things that you cannot say. No one said to them, oh, that was the right move. Oh, that was perfect. Or that was. That should have happened that way or you shouldn't. You should have went and got Josh Hart, who people have forgot about down in New Orleans.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, going the new, the Nova Knicks putting that team back.
Rich Paul
Let me tell you why it was non traditional and why it made a lot of sense. Because they're not focused on process. They're not focused on trying to extend a certain thing. And, and this is how it normally goes. They did what they felt, what the gut told them to do. And they align a situation in a guy like Leon, who was a former agent. When you are a former agent, you know the player, you know what you're looking for. You know the player better than analytics. Analytics can't tell you about a player that you represented and you know that guy, that's number one. The next thing is they take a guy like Wes, who's a relationship guy worldwide.
Max Kellerman
Wes, right.
Rich Paul
He's a relationship guy. Then you add a guy like Brock, who is the mathematician. So collectively they're saying, we're going to do this, we're going to huddle up and do this. We're going to focus on these things. We're going to be true to ourselves despite what anybody thinks. And then a guy you don't give enough credit to, which is what you actually need. Didn't get in their way. Their owners.
Max Kellerman
I, I credit Dolan for this.
Rich Paul
Did not get in there.
Max Kellerman
Got out of the way.
Rich Paul
Yes, yes. So that matters.
Max Kellerman
Right?
Rich Paul
Once, once you found something, he was
Max Kellerman
too busy following kids around with surveillance videos and SWAT teams around the Madison Square Garden.
Rich Paul
But once you found something that works, and again, that's one aspect of it, the next thing that matters is the journey they fell on. Some bad luck. Guy gets injured, you go up against a Boston team that was fully healthy and rolling, you wasn't going to beat them. But now we're here. Last year, what was it? Halliburton? What was it? Game one? No, but game one, remember he hit the turnaround shot on Mitchell Robinson. So now they still won at home. It's on the road rather. Again, this is.
Max Kellerman
What is the point about non traditional.
Rich Paul
The non traditional mean you don't have a traditional mindset to say we're going to do these things within a process. Because the analytics say this or no, you're not doing that.
Max Kellerman
Is the claim that you're making that as an. As agents. And by the way, famously, they only dealt with like mainly dealt with CAA clients and you know, the whole thing.
Rich Paul
Yeah, but that's their prerogative.
Max Kellerman
But the idea that an agent running a front office as Pelinka does for the, for the Lakers, Well, Bob Myers was really on Rose. Right. Is an advantage because they have a better understanding of the players than a traditional GM or president.
Rich Paul
No, I'm not going to go that far and say a better understanding. What I'm going to say is different understanding. You don't, you don't take the traditional process route.
Max Kellerman
You're not a slave to tradition.
Rich Paul
Well, you're just not. It'll be like, it'll be like a higher education. You're coming from a, you know, a higher education institution that teaches you to do this this way is. It's just I'm going off of what I think is right in my field. It may not be ideal. Like if you were raised to be a general manager, ideally you're not trading first five. Five first round picks for Mikhail Bridges.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
You will never do it. Just like you may never. Just like you may never say this happens a lot in the draft. I can't take that guy at number five, even if you need him.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
But you say you can take him.
Max Kellerman
It's not value at 5.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
Is it the guy or not?
Rich Paul
But that becomes. And there's a lot.
Max Kellerman
Do you relate to this because we've talked on this show about the life lessons you learned where you are from and applied them to an industry where traditionally, I mean, they tried to make the rich Paul rule, which is you have to have X, Y and Z degrees in order to be zero sense. Right. Because well, they were, I mean you should be very flattered they were targeting you. Obviously that's your competition thinking, let's take them out some other way. Right. But so, so you come as an outsider to that business going in a non traditional way and taking lessons you learned really in the street and in your neighborhood. Right. And applying them to, to an area where that's not normally applied and that. Now is there a parallel between that or do you relate to this now that we're talking about? Because the agent is coming from a point of view that is not traditionally where front offices come from.
Rich Paul
Absolutely. And there's, there's, don't get me wrong, there's very, very, very high level next
Max Kellerman
agent who could run a team where, where you never know where you could find that guy.
Rich Paul
Yeah, well, there's very, very high level general managers and presidents. What I'm saying is in this case what helped them was the non traditional. Now we've seen some of the best executives in, in the business. Right. But some was ex players like a Pat Riley or Jerry West.
Max Kellerman
Some also a non traditional route. He went from a player to a broadcaster.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
To a coach.
Rich Paul
Yes. So you start non traditional.
Max Kellerman
I guess that's not that non traditional, but.
Rich Paul
Yeah, no, but, but, but also you're ending again non traditional, which has helped them in this case. Because sometimes the point I'm making is sometimes it's okay to be non traditional because it causes you not to overthink the situation. Because now if we sit back and we analyze and we second guess and we question and we know, we pose. We need this guy, Mikal Bridges. Who cares what anybody has to say about the picks. We need this guy. He fits exactly what we're talking about. He fits the three and D guy, he fits our locker room. He went to Villanova with our best. He's gonna have chemistry, gonna have chemistry, et cetera. We know this guy, Carl Anthony Towns. I've known him since he was a freshman in high school. You know, I'm just saying for this, I'm, I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually pleased to see the success because sometimes people try to hinder you not having experience in certain situations and they're, they gatekeep these type of situations when the reality of it is, no, every situation is different. You have to evaluate every situation differently. So that's all. I was just making the point.
Max Kellerman
I got a five minute max for you off now. Go ahead for this.
Rich Paul
Yeah.
Max Kellerman
I want to talk about.
Rich Paul
Oh, I left something. Oh, no, I didn't leave it. Go, go, go, go, go.
Max Kellerman
No, no, I want to hear it.
Rich Paul
I'm just saying the non traditional moves that was made is now getting what you would think would be the perfect processing results.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
So.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
Kudos to them.
Max Kellerman
I mean, and it's proof of like if they win the championship. The bridges trade, it's proof of concept. Right. If they win the championship. Hey, everyone. Hey, Kellerman. You're talking about, oh, we're idiots for trading five first. We got a chip out of it.
Rich Paul
Well, here's the other thing. You draft R.J. barrett at three.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
Another first round draft pick at 29 was Emmanuel Quickley.
Max Kellerman
Yep.
Rich Paul
You pay him and normally you would think, oh, we have to see this through. They moved him.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. I'm just saying, I mean the two trades that I couldn't believe they, they pulled off and I did not think Randle was great for the Knicks, but I know like he's a double double machine and he's. And he's playing like he's in a good spot for him. But I didn't feel like he made the Knicks better when he was playing just the way the team was constructed. So moving him for Carl Anthony Towns, the fact that they had to throw in, the fact that they had to put DiVincenzo in that broke my heart because I'm like, oh my God. However, you have to get Towns. And I honestly couldn't believe that they could land Towns for Randle and Divincenzo. I thought that was a steal. And then the other thing was the OG trade. Barrett and Quickley for og like when they made those deals, in both cases, which you, you never in the NBA want to turn a dollar into four quarters, but if you got four quarters, you can go get a dollar. Do it. And in both those trades, the Knicks traded four quarters for a dollar and they put OG and Cat together. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA playoffs are here. Everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings. The game tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right. All customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your win hits bigger. And FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs. Long. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Payoff with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 and over in select states or 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them. Right? You're going to do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it free@ziprecruiter.com gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com gameover that's ZipRecruiter.com gameOver meet your match on ZipRecruiter but okay, so here's my five minute max. There are two play. I mean OG gets credit and he deserves it. The two people I want to single out on the Knicks or the coach and when they have their best lineup on the floor, they're center Mike Brown. The fact that the Coach of the Year is given out just like all the other awards are idiotically given out after the regular season, but they don't count the playoffs. It's ridiculous. Mike Brown should absolutely be at the very least a finalist for Coach of the Year. He look what he's done when it mattered most. Look what he did.
Rich Paul
Coach of the Year has already been given out.
Max Kellerman
Look, Missoula got it. Go look at Go look at the Celtic Sixers series. One team advanced, one didn't. Arguably the better team did not advance was and I'm not arguing Missoula is not an excellent coach. Come on, who did a better job so far this year in its entirety? Mike Brown or Missoula? Which one?
Rich Paul
Well, given. I understand Mike because Tatum got hurt, given where the Celtics were supposed to be Missoula.
Max Kellerman
Mike Brown has unlocked this offense to the point where the Knicks have the best playoff point differential in the history of basketball.
Rich Paul
This is why, Max, you always say there should be regular season awards and playoff.
Max Kellerman
No, I think it should all be one award.
Rich Paul
No, you don't think that.
Max Kellerman
I absolutely do. Regular season awards, meaningless. You don't know.
Rich Paul
Oh, you saying you have to wait
Max Kellerman
to give out the awards till the whole thing is done.
Rich Paul
Oh, you saying just one award, so
Max Kellerman
the whole thing is done.
Rich Paul
But at the end of season.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, And. Or if you wanted to do. If you want to do regular season and then postseason awards, fine. But not just regular season. Nothing for the playoffs and finals.
Rich Paul
That's ridiculous.
Max Kellerman
But Mike Brown came into a situation where Tibbs had gotten them to a certain level. And sometimes a manager or a coach gets you to a certain point, builds respectability and changes the culture and all that stuff, but that is not the guy to take you over the top. Mike Brown came and he has taken them over the top in the sense that they're much better than. Look, when Tibbs came in, he got them there, right? And then they lost to a team they were better than because they were hurt. Yeah, but two years ago, by the
Rich Paul
way, that's okay, but.
Max Kellerman
But they lost to a team they're better than because they were hurt. But a lot of that is the. Is the intensity and the minutes that those guys were playing the following season. Here's the problem, Rich. The following season, the Knicks were healthy and they lost to the Pacers because the Pacers improved. And the Knicks had been backslid a little. Basically the same roster. They got a little worse.
Rich Paul
How'd they get worse?
Max Kellerman
They were better than the Pacers the year that. Two years ago. Right. They were better than them when they lost the first time they played the Pacers, but they were simply hurt the following season. Last year they lost to the Pacers and the Pacers were the better team.
Rich Paul
But the bigger, the big. The Pacers were also the Pacers. Remember, Halliburton didn't even make the all star team. The Pacers had a surgeons late. They were doing exactly what the Knicks are doing now.
Max Kellerman
They were running the team. They were running the offense through Brunson entirely. That is not the winning way to play. That is not Mike Brown Came in. Okay, so now I want to talk about the other guy who deserves credit. I don't think he's getting enough right now for one specific thing. Carl Anthony Towns has the reputation of being too soft a player. Right? Even I have been on this show saying, hey, he can't be cat. He's got to be dog, right? He's got to be dog. Anthony Towns, right? I know it's not a perfect parallel because it's cat. Carl Anthony Townes dog. I know, I know. Cut me some slack. The point is, a lot of times very high IQ players or finesse players are considered not rough enough, not hard enough. They're too soft. Karl Anthony Towns, what he's showing right now is a sky high basketball iq. Well, he's always had that, but he is showing it. He is like he is running the Knicks offense at least as much as Brunson is and making great decisions. And it has unlocked this team to the point where over the last however many games, it is now a dozen games, they're stomping out teams worse than any playoff ever stomped out.
Rich Paul
Mike just convinced him. Look, normally you don't win the championship with your best player being your smallest guy.
Max Kellerman
Right?
Rich Paul
You don't. And I know Becky's getting a lot of flack for what she said. I agree with her 100%, but that's a fact. Me and you talked about it. The only person, the only two people that has ever, ever, ever done it, Isaiah has been Isaiah Thomas of the Pistons and Steph Curry in 63.
Max Kellerman
63 doesn't count. That's too tall.
Rich Paul
Okay, you're saying Steph Curry don't count. Bullshit. Steph Curry does.
Max Kellerman
Six, three.
Rich Paul
No, Steph Curry counts because you try to act as if he did it one time.
Max Kellerman
Steph. Steph did it one time in 2020. Okay, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule.
Rich Paul
Yes, but. Right, so. But what? What? Jalen Brunson is still the best player. But. But what Mike Brown did in adding to that offense was not just playing through Jalen. We're going to play through Catsum. We're going to get the ball moving. We're going to get guys, you know, just, just moving. That's why guys like Landry Shammit is getting these wide open threes, because you just added a different element. Let's not forget in 2016, after going to the Finals in 2015, the Cavaliers fired David Blatt.
Max Kellerman
Right?
Rich Paul
They fired David Blatt.
Max Kellerman
They brought in. They brought.
Rich Paul
They didn't break in. He was Sitting right next to the man.
Max Kellerman
Right. But Ty took him to the guys like Steve Kerr and Ty Lue. And if he gets it done, Mike Brown deserve. Yes, Mark Jackson and, and. And David Blatt and, and. And Thibodeau also deserve credit for getting them to a certain level. But when you bring in the coach, that puts them over the top. Mike Brown is going to elevate his standing in basketball.
Rich Paul
But why? What's the difference maker in these guys? I know what it is.
Max Kellerman
I think in all. In all those cases, they unlock the offense. No, what is it?
Rich Paul
It's not that they unlock the offense. That's part of it. Because T. Lou came up with hunting the guy and getting the mismatch, et cetera.
Max Kellerman
And Steve Kerr totally changed that offense and Mike Brown changed this offense.
Rich Paul
There's one word, accountability.
Max Kellerman
But Tibbs holds him accountable in a different way.
Rich Paul
Mike Brown, I've been around this man forever. Mike Brown gets the best out of the players. I don't know how he does it, but he does it. And I think that the difference between. They all got different coaching styles. T. Lew's thing was he keeps it so real with you that, come on, man, you can't fake it. Let's just call it what it is. He don't mind calling out whether it was LeBron or anybody else in the film session. And I'm sure Mike Brown is the same way. So now you get to the end of the year and we've went. They went through their ups and downs. They were calling for the man's job during.
Max Kellerman
And they were saying there's locker room
Rich Paul
problems, all these different things. It wasn't any of that. What it was, was it was taking these bad habits and getting you comfortable with conforming to play the style and to do all the things.
Max Kellerman
But in order to do that, to win games, in order to do that cat from the nail, and we like,
Rich Paul
his name should be DAT if you want it, dog. Anthony Towns. Yes. You missed that.
Max Kellerman
Absolutely. Yeah, but I'm your teammate. I thank you. I appreciate that. Throughout the history of the NBA, like whether it's Bill Walton or more recently, Jokic, or if it's, you know, whoever is that second point guard, the point sent the point big, you know, whether it's from the pinch post, nail, the low post, whatever it is that guy, when he's a high IQ player, it makes everything work. That is Karl Anthony Towns and the promise that he showed when he was first drafted. And it was like, Okafor is a center from the Previous era, Cat looked like he could defend out in space because he was more athletic. Didn't turn out that way exactly, but that was the thought. But he can and he could shoot and everything. He is justifying the draft pick. He is elevating his status in the current NBA and in history because you can't just entrust anyone to that job. But Max, okay, Pau Gasol did that for the Lakers with Kobe.
Rich Paul
But I talked to you about this during the earlier series and I said to you, your big man. When you look at the Bulls, say what you want about Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman had what, a high iq for sure. So did Will Perdue. So did Bill Winnington. So did Bill.
Max Kellerman
But they didn't play through those guys.
Rich Paul
No, but that's not the point. In order to run the triangle offense, your bigs have to have a high iq. Okay? Now let's go to the Lakers if you want to go to the Pistons, if you want to go to the spurs, if you want to go to the Rockets.
Max Kellerman
By the way, the problem with the Lakers right now, if hate. I hate to say it, I'm not like they need. If they, if they had, if they had a high IQ big. I'm not saying their bigs are not or stupid or anything, but I'm talking about a high IQ big. They would be a much.
Rich Paul
You don't think they send the same thing? By the way, when you talk about. If you look at the spurs right now, if you look at the Thunder right now, Hardenstein, Jalen Williams, Knicks.
Max Kellerman
Hated to see him go, of course, but.
Rich Paul
But what I'm saying is these guys. High iq.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
When you think about the Knicks, Jalen Brunson, high iq. Josh, just to say whoever went to Villanova, high iq. Jay Wright. You can't play for Jay Wright without a high IQ.
Max Kellerman
And Anobi.
Rich Paul
least not, not multiple years.
Max Kellerman
Mitch Robinson. Mitch Robinson just can't hit a free throw. But that dude is a. Is a stud under pressure.
Rich Paul
But Mitch Robinson brings something different. Yeah, right. So.
Max Kellerman
But he's also a smart player.
Rich Paul
Yes. Cat, high iq you. When you get. When you. You don't.
Max Kellerman
And by the way, Cat is also maybe the best shooting big ever. Like he's up there with like Dirk Navitz in terms of the way he's just taller.
Rich Paul
Yeah, but you don't get to this point of the season without being. Having a high iq. Yeah, you just can't. You can't. The, the game of basketball isn't made like that. The game gods aren't blessing stupidity to win a Finals. It just does not work.
Max Kellerman
Kenny Atkinson staying with the Cavs Cavs fans, I feel your pain because the Giants extended Joe Shane and all of a sudden Jackson darts in the wrong place saying the wrong stuff, and then Abdul Carter has to say something like a domino effect. The Cavs. This really started, I think, with the Harden trade. You traded a good young point guard for an old guy who hasn't good been good in the playoffs throughout his career. He was again not good in the playoffs. Then you extend the coach who came out. Now I want to defend Atkinson. For one thing, when he said they're down, I made fun of him on Twitter. I said analytically.
Rich Paul
You tweet it.
Max Kellerman
The first tweet I sent in forever.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, I'm not going to call it that. They'll call it Twitter.
Rich Paul
Well, the bird is no longer there, but it's Twitter.
Max Kellerman
It's Twitter no matter what.
Rich Paul
Okay, the
Max Kellerman
and I mean, they're now 2 and 2 analytically or whatever it is. But when Kenny Atkinson says they're 2 and 1 analytically, when they were down.03 and everyone got mad at him. Rich I just want to just clarify that a little bit for people when he says they're down to they should be up to one analytically. Really what he's saying, and maybe he doesn't know it, is the analytics have failed to capture value. He is pointing out the fact, whether he knows it or not, that the analytics are imperfect. And for people who use that as just a blanket thing. Oh, that analytics bad. No. To be a slave to analytics is a bad thing because we will never have perfect knowledge. It's never going to get to the point. And I don't think we would want it to get to the point where analytics tell you everything you need to know and you just, you know, throw it in the computer and you're done. Because then what's the point in playing the games? We will never have perfect knowledge. The analytics will always fail to capture some value, and they should be used as an important tool in analysis, but not as the final say analytics is
Rich Paul
like condiments or like salt and pepper. It's not the meal like this. And this is why I don't understand how you rest on analytics.
Max Kellerman
It's it's more like it's a measuring tool. It's just not the only one. Like if you wanted to know the size of an object, you could take a tape measure, but you don't know the mass. You need a scale. You Know, like so. So analytics are one tool, along with scouts, along with all kinds of stuff.
Rich Paul
I'm not the biggest analytic guy. You know that already.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, but you. Look, if you ran a team, you'd have an analytics department.
Rich Paul
Of course you have to. But. But if I ran a team and I had an analytics department, yes, that's one thing. Give me the analytics, et cetera. But I'm making a decision based upon what I see, what I know, what I'm evaluating the analyst conversation.
Max Kellerman
What you. Yeah, yeah. Or if they. But. But if they contradict it, then you have to look at it again and go, But I also know the analytics
Rich Paul
is not going to tell me in, in its entirety how much somebody cares, how much somebody's willing to prep, how much their approach, how much somebody, you know, when, when the game is on the line, what's. What's going on in their mind coming out of a timeout, can they execute the way the coach drew the play up? Like, there's so many different things that analytics don't tell as it pertains to the athlete. Now, I'm not saying I'm ignoring analytics the entire way, but I can't. I can't base everything on analytics.
Max Kellerman
One way to do analytics, like in baseball, for example, and this, they do this in all sports now, is win shares. And what they did is they reverse engineered. They said, okay, this team has the same baseball. They win 90 games. Then they figure out, so this team, everyone on this team who played any at all for this team is worth 90 wins. Now let's figure out how much, what percentage of a win each one is worth. Right? They tried to reverse engineer it. If Kenny Atkinson, if he understood really what he was saying. What he was saying is that, like, the analytics didn't get the win shares right. You know, we missed it because the best analytics would have them down.03.
Rich Paul
You know what I would want to know how much did R.C. buford. Pat Riley, Danny Ainge, Red Auerbach. Red Auerbach. Now, Brad Stevens, Sam Presti, Greg Popovich. Yeah, no, I'm saying I said R.C. buford.
Max Kellerman
Oh, yeah, right. Sure. It counts.
Rich Paul
Jerry West, Tex.
Max Kellerman
Someone like that.
Rich Paul
Yeah. Well, Jerry Krause.
Max Kellerman
Okay, Krause.
Rich Paul
In that case, I want to know how much. There's a common denominator to these guys that I'm naming.
Max Kellerman
Jerry West.
Rich Paul
I named Jerry West. Yes. Do you know what the common denominator is?
Max Kellerman
What?
Rich Paul
They all were great talent evaluators, and they won. Ginobili was drafted in the second round. Tony Parker was 29.
Max Kellerman
Jokic was in the second round.
Rich Paul
I'm just saying. I wonder what. I wonder what. How much they.
Max Kellerman
All right, well, evaluate the talent then. Rich.
Rich Paul
No, I want to ask him. I'm going to. I'm going to ask.
Max Kellerman
I'm asking you. You're a talent evaluator. That why I am like, this is why Clutch is doing well, because you're a good talent evaluator. What is one of the reasons. What do the Cavs do now? You traded what should have been a foundational piece for a guy you should have been able to get for spare parts. Now, do you keep hard? Like, if I'm the Cavs, I am moving on from James Harden. I got to move on from that. So now what tradable assets do you have to get better? Do you build around Donovan Mitchell and the two bigs? Do you move Allen or Mobley? Do you move Mitchell?
Rich Paul
Well, here's the thing. I can't say certain things that you can say, but here's what I will say. What the Cavs should do is not be satisfied with the season. And that will allow them to go into the off season with an open mind to understand that, yes, we were in the Eastern Conference finals, but we were so far away. And if you have that mentality going in, I think it allows you to have an open mind and strategize on what needs to be done next. That's the best way I can do it.
Max Kellerman
One thing I'm not doing, if I'm the Cavs, I would consider moving any of those guys. I don't think any of those guys are unmovable. I think Mobley, at this moment, it looks to me like his ceiling is not what I thought it was. Still a very good player.
Rich Paul
Allen's better player.
Max Kellerman
Glasses Allen's. In other words, I thought his ceiling was mvp. I don't see Mobley as an MVP in the future, but maybe I'm wrong. Allen's very good player. Donovan Mitchell's a very good player. None of those guys would be untouchable to me, but I would not want to break them into spare parts. If I move one of those guys, I want a single asset, at least that I consider at least as valuable as that player, whether that's a draft pick or another player who does exactly what I want from that.
Rich Paul
Well, a draft pick. What do you mean, a draft pick?
Max Kellerman
If I'm moving one of those guys, I want a high pick back.
Rich Paul
Yeah, but you're talking about moving guys that are proven players for A guy that might have potential. Yeah, I don't know about that.
Max Kellerman
Depends how good the pick is.
Rich Paul
Yeah, no.
Max Kellerman
First of all, you're not going to have to pay the pick for a while. Secondly, if it's high up enough and you're a talent evaluator, you should be able to get some pretty good talent. Especially if you take the approach you do which is forget value, let me get my guy.
Rich Paul
Yeah, I would definitely do that. But I don't know about. Listen, I like proven players. How about that? I mean draft picks are great, don't get me wrong. But it's a swing just like anything else. These guys were once swings. Now they've been in the league for a long time. You know they can play you name all star players.
Max Kellerman
Let me ask you something.
Rich Paul
All defensive team players you name.
Max Kellerman
Maxey is in the draft.
Rich Paul
Yes.
Max Kellerman
And you know you're going to be able to pick him up with whatever. But you have the seventh pick in the draft.
Rich Paul
I would have took him seven, no question about it.
Max Kellerman
So you mean to tell me there's not some dude like that in every single draft?
Rich Paul
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not saying.
Max Kellerman
But you turn Donovan Mitchell, but that don't into that guy.
Rich Paul
But that don't make the pick that you're getting back that pick for that moment and that guy's. There's a lot of things that have to go right when. That's where the fantasy basketball comes at. I don't play fantasy basketball well, that's
Max Kellerman
the only thing I do play. We are getting down to it with the spurs in OKC and I've got you covered with my picks on FanDuel and all playoffs long. Fanduel has the best same game parlay pricing in the game. So if you're riding with your favorite players, make sure to head to FanDuel. And here it goes. San Antonio's -3 and a half at home in game six. They have to win that game to stay alive. What they win their last home game by 75.0 literally in the 20s. They. They're going to cover the three and a half. It's a must win game. They're going to cover the three and a half total points. I'm going to take the under on two, 18 and a half. If you look at the last game in San Antonio, they didn't even have a combined 190 points. And I think this is going to be a defensive game. I think the spurs especially are really going to get it out after it on defense, Keldon Johnson look this guy is usually really good off the bench. Had an off night shooting in game four on sorry game five on the road. I expect that to turn around at home. The over under is seven and a half points. I'm taking the over and Chet Holmgren I feel like finally showed up and found something in game five and where role players usually play better at home. I don't think Chet's a role player. All NBA right? What is third team so 13 and a half points. I like the over on Chet. The bet will be live in the FanDuel app. And don't forget to check out the great offers. They'll have all playoffs as well. FanDuel play your game. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Winter gets all the credit for being messy. But here's the thing. Summer might be worse. Sand from the beach, grass from the park, melted snacks, sunscreen everywhere, drinks spilling on long drives. It adds up. WeatherTech keeps you covered. A cargo liner, floor liners and seat protectors help handle whatever summer throws your way. They're tough, easy to clean and made to last. If summer means getting out and doing more, WeatherTech helps make sure your car isn't slacking on Defense. Visit weathertech.com today.
Rich Paul
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Max Kellerman
Ready for emails?
Rich Paul
Sure. Let's do it.
Max Kellerman
Michael from Lorton, Virginia with one question. If the Memphis Grizzlies are willing to part ways with Ja Morant, who should be the first team calling? Thank you for taking my question. Love the show. Go Army.
Rich Paul
Beat Navy Sacramento.
Max Kellerman
Cause he's a star and he can get some people to show up.
Rich Paul
Yeah, and I think that, I think Scott Perry has an ability to really, I think he can connect with John Morant because I think a guy like John Morant, he needs to feel you're real.
Max Kellerman
When Ja was at his best and everyone said Iverson, who he reminded me of most, just aesthetically, when he was playing in the air was Michael Jordan. The way he floated in the Air. Ja had hops and did things in the air.
Rich Paul
Michael Jordan.
Max Kellerman
Yup. He had hops.
Rich Paul
That's a new one.
Max Kellerman
He had hops.
Rich Paul
What's in those glasses?
Max Kellerman
And he did things in the air. That reminded me. It was so spectacular.
Rich Paul
Do you have Lobos in those glasses?
Max Kellerman
Is he still as athletic as he was several years ago or is that gone forever?
Rich Paul
No, that's not gone. That's not gone. But I say Sacramento for all the reasons, because I think when you look at all the teams, most of them already have point. I mean, he could jock and play on any team. I'm not saying that they asked the question, so I'm saying for all things where it's at, I think that crowd up there, the excitement, you want them
Max Kellerman
on ball like that?
Rich Paul
I do, yeah. I do.
Max Kellerman
You think he makes good enough decisions with the ball?
Rich Paul
I do, yeah. No, I'm not saying that.
Max Kellerman
What Dean just said is. He said Sacramento is a graveyard for players. There is this sense that like once upon a time, someone would say the Knicks. There's a sense that the worst run teams are the best place, especially if they're small markets for once great players who have felt fallen out of favor or are somehow distressed assets to go because it's kind of like damning them both. He ain't that good anymore and this team would take a player like that.
Rich Paul
Yeah. But I think there's ways you can turn places around. And we've seen an example of Sacramento when they were a good team that you. You cannot find a better crowd of fans than Sacramento when they're good. We've seen it.
Max Kellerman
How about Knicks fans?
Rich Paul
Them too.
Max Kellerman
I'm gonna say the Knicks fans are a better crowd than the Sacramento fans.
Rich Paul
Well, listen, I have nothing against the Knick fans because the Knick fans are. Are the. Nick, The Knick fans make you want to go to a Knick game, not even go to the game. The Knick fans make you want to hang out then outside of pin four, which is great. That's to me. And you have to tip your hat to the Knicks fans. You know why? Because normally in the big market, everyone is too cool for school. As it pertains to just really showing your fandom. You got guys like Chalamet and Ben Stiller and Tracy Morgan and Spike Lee and. What's my girl from?
Max Kellerman
Rosie. Rosie Perez?
Rich Paul
No, her too. But my. The. The. I love this lady from.
Max Kellerman
Is it a lot of ladies in the world? Rich, you got to narrow it down.
Rich Paul
No Law and order.
Max Kellerman
Oh. Oh, Hargitay.
Rich Paul
Yeah, she's amazing. Like, I'm just saying, the, the crowd, the. There you can feel the authenticness, the, the authenticity there in the crowd. And these are high level celebrities, et cetera. And it's just fun to watch. Like, the NBA is great when the Knicks are good.
Max Kellerman
As a reformed Knicks fan, when I was a kid, I was obsessed with the Knicks, like everyone in New York, the way I feel about it now, if they win the whole thing in a way like Knicks fans should, you gotta enjoy the moment. But like one championship in 53 years, like, you gotta start with one. But the Knicks owe their fans about 18 championships.
Rich Paul
Yo, man.
Max Kellerman
Yes. If you root for the number one team in New York City. No, it's hardly in basketball, which is the most. Basketball is by far the most popular sport in New York City by far.
Rich Paul
Yeah, but Matt, if you.
Max Kellerman
And it's the only team of the three major sports that plays in Manhattan in the middle of the city, if you root for the New York franchise, the heritage franchise, you can't win the championship every year. You have a birthright to expect to win the championship more than any other team, and they have won it less than any other team. So fine, you got one. It's like you're a sucker for waiting 53 years to get one and then be thankful for the one.
Rich Paul
Now this is typical New York of you.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
This is why, you know, you, you, you really just, you, you can't do that. I mean, you just did it. You did just do it. You did just do it. But, but, but the fact of the
Max Kellerman
matter is, oh, they waited so long. Isn't it even better that you waited so long and now you know it? No, it's not better. It's worse, you know, waiting for that. I remember as a kid, I remember thinking this, where The Celtics had 13 and the Lakers had six and the Knicks had two. And I was like, okay, first the Knicks got to catch. But I forgot what I was like eight years old, nine years old. Okay, first the Knicks got to catch the Lakers. That's four chips. Then they got to get to catch the Celtics. Maybe by the time I'm 50, they could catch the Celtics. And in that time, the lakers have won 11 more chips. The Knicks have won on.
Rich Paul
Yeah, but here's. You can know, I went back and I watched a lot ofGames on YouTube over the last couple days. Older games. Yeah, Knicks. Older playoff games. This Knicks team would have beat any Knicks team in the last 30 years.
Max Kellerman
When you say every modern team in every Sport would be.
Rich Paul
It doesn't matter.
Max Kellerman
The old teams, of course.
Rich Paul
No, it doesn't matter what you say. Because when you get people saying oh what we would have did. No this Knicks team, would it beat the every team in the last 30 years?
Max Kellerman
Every. I'm saying every single.
Rich Paul
So be thankful.
Max Kellerman
Every single team in every sport would be from 30 years ago. That's not necessarily built on what those other damn lies.
Rich Paul
That's not necessarily true. Of course that's not necessarily true. No.
Max Kellerman
All the football teams today would destroy all the football teams. The guys are bigger, stronger, faster and they know all the stuff that they did, but they don't know all the stuff.
Rich Paul
That is not true.
Max Kellerman
But that's the why better is a ridiculous thing. It's greater it. Because you assume if those guys played today they'd shoot the three a lot better. Right. Because they would have to press it all.
Rich Paul
So you're telling me this Cavaliers team would have beat the 2016 Cavaliers team?
Max Kellerman
I didn't. I said 30 years ago.
Rich Paul
What about the 2007 Cavaliers team?
Max Kellerman
Yeah, probably. They shoot it much better.
Rich Paul
You're damn lie.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. Anyway, where I was, I had such a great thought. It was just an earth shattering thoughts.
Rich Paul
You haven't had a great thought all night.
Max Kellerman
It was about to change everything and I lost it. Yeah, yeah.
Rich Paul
Something. No, enough.
Max Kellerman
Oh, I said way back when we started this show that this was the best starting five the Knicks had in my lifetime. That's the best starting five.
Rich Paul
I gave you that because.
Max Kellerman
Because those Ewing teams, Patrick Ewing, they
Rich Paul
didn't have a three man.
Max Kellerman
Starks, they didn't really have. They didn't have another all star.
Rich Paul
No. But they didn't have a three.
Max Kellerman
Which, which team didn't have a three? Johnny. Johnny Newman was the three.
Rich Paul
No, was not.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, he was. Johnny Newman was the three back then.
Rich Paul
No, he was not.
Max Kellerman
The team, the Mark Jackson Knicks. That's before.
Rich Paul
No, I'm talking about the Rick Patino Knicks.
Max Kellerman
Then it was the Pat Riley Knicks. The Pat Riley Knicks.
Rich Paul
That team did not have a three man.
Max Kellerman
And so Starks Mason was the three. Oakley. And then Mason turned into Larry Johnson. Mason was the 4. Marcus Camby, which was actually a good trade given where they were in their careers. And they brought in Sprewell and Houston.
Rich Paul
The reason why the Knicks didn't win in the 90s is because they didn't have a three man. I watched it, I studied it.
Max Kellerman
I'm like, which team are you talking about? It was Mason. Larry. It was, it was first. It was Mason Then it was Larry Johnson.
Rich Paul
Before that, before this, it was Johnny Newman, basically. No, it was not. Max. You use from New York. You don't know your own damn team.
Max Kellerman
I'm telling you. Go back and look at the bomb squad.
Rich Paul
It was Ewing, Charles Smith and Charles Oak.
Max Kellerman
Now you're going to. Now you're going to the Charles Smith day.
Rich Paul
You're not going to Charles me. I just said the 90s. Well, 1992, 93, when they were playing.
Max Kellerman
They weren't in the finals in those years because they didn't have a three. Charles Smith. Yeah, but Smith was like the three.
Rich Paul
He was not. He couldn't face up. What are you talking about?
Max Kellerman
But that's when he played with Oakley and Ewing. That's basically the three.
Rich Paul
No, that's not.
Max Kellerman
Matter of fact, they traded Mark Jackson for. They traded Mark Jackson for Charles.
Rich Paul
All I'm saying is the biggest piece for that, that specific team was they did not have a three.
Max Kellerman
I'm telling you, it was not an issue of a 3. It was an issue of neither at the 2 nor the 3 3. Did you ever have an all star scorer until they brought in Houston and Sprewell who were both really twos but played the 23 together. By then, Ewing was already in decline.
Rich Paul
I'm trying to.
Max Kellerman
Still didn't have the point card they needed team.
Rich Paul
They just did not have a three. I'm telling you, I'm sitting there watching it, right? I'm trying to think if they. If they would have took.
Max Kellerman
They didn't really have a two either. Rich Starks was really a six man. Ideally he was a six man. So it's not. And then when they find. That's what I'm saying.
Rich Paul
But they still.
Max Kellerman
When they finally got the 23 that you're talking about Sprewell and Houston. And you know what they did, Ewing was no longer as good. No, they didn't have a top point.
Rich Paul
They had dog, they had toughness, they had fight.
Max Kellerman
So just Van Gundy. They also had three really good coaches. They went to Chino, to Pat Riley, to Jeff Van Gundy.
Rich Paul
Yes, they did.
Max Kellerman
They were really good coaches. All right, let's get to the next question here. Ridiculous.
Rich Paul
Yeah. This guy don't know his own team.
Max Kellerman
Hey, Max and Rich love the show and the unique perspectives and analytical insight you both bring to the game. Is there a realistic move, by the way, Charles Smith with the injury, otherwise that would have been a good trade. The Mark Jackson for Charles. He also, before we move on, gets blamed unnecessarily.
Rich Paul
For the layup.
Max Kellerman
Let me tell you something.
Rich Paul
The mislay up.
Max Kellerman
I'm not blaming them on the tabloids. At the back page of the tabloids may have been to the front page the next day. You saw Scottie Pippen's hand here and Horace Grant's hand here and they didn't call it. Yes, but in the newspapers, your two forwards on the other team literally had a hand on either side of his arm and it was not called.
Rich Paul
Listen, I'm not Charles Smith. No one's getting on Charles Smith. All I'm saying is they did not have a three man. A little bit. That's all I'm saying.
Max Kellerman
Love the show and unique perspectives and analytical insight you both bring to the game. Is there a realistic move you think Portland could make this offseason that would elevate them into the top six in the loaded Western Conference? I'm realistic enough to know they probably aren't surpassing OKC or San Antonio long term. Thanks in advance if you happen to read an answer on the show. I truly appreciate all the work you both put in. Max's fellow member of the tribe, Ryan Rich. You know what that means, Member of the tribe.
Rich Paul
No, no, I know what that.
Max Kellerman
Rich is an honorary member. That's why he knows.
Rich Paul
I know what that means. I think. I think I told you before. Portland is about a piece and a half away.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
It depends on how they come back this summer.
Max Kellerman
Who's available.
Rich Paul
Obviously, Dame's coming back.
Max Kellerman
Oh, you know who might be available?
Rich Paul
No.
Max Kellerman
Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi Leonard could be available.
Rich Paul
He's already there. He was just injured.
Max Kellerman
Yeah, he's got. But. But Kawhi Leonard would be a nice fit on that team. Rich, it's kind of what. It's kind of exactly what they need. I mean, the way that as an advisor, when you. When you. When you run a front office, you could hire me as a. I don't know.
Rich Paul
The way that Avia is playing, I don't know if I want to. I don't know if I want to mess with that. And I'm a big Kawhi fan. I don't know if I want to mess with that.
Max Kellerman
Down the best player on the other side and you don't. And. And Kawhi doesn't need to take over the game on ball and stuff, but you just gotta.
Rich Paul
But you have to move somebody and that means you have to move Denny and I don't know if you want to do that.
Max Kellerman
You don't have to move.
Rich Paul
You don't have to. Yes, you do. Why? Well, you don't have to move Denny, but I'm saying you're just gonna be
Max Kellerman
able to sign them. They're gonna void us down, probably.
Rich Paul
Are you crazy? Where do you come up with this stuff?
Max Kellerman
They're going to have to punish the Clippers.
Rich Paul
You think they about to void this man's. What is wrong with you?
Max Kellerman
Oh, they might. They might make him a free agent. Why not? They got to punish the Clippers.
Rich Paul
So now I don't even think there's Lobos in those glasses. I think there's.
Max Kellerman
So how are they going to punish the Clippers?
Rich Paul
I'm not talking about how somebody's going to get. That's not my.
Max Kellerman
I would say that Kawhi could. The idea that they could. That they could cut Kawhi loose because. Because if they find or have. Or have enough, like, reasonable suspicion or
Rich Paul
enough evidence, you know, there's a players association.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
Come on, Max. That type of stuff is made for tv.
Max Kellerman
You're saying I want Iguodala.
Rich Paul
This is a Netflix show. We talk about real things here.
Max Kellerman
All right.
Rich Paul
But to answer this question, I don't know specifically one person. I will say they are probably. If I had to take a guess.
Max Kellerman
Ooh, I got another one.
Rich Paul
Four man. A four man or five. Not a wing addition there. I don't think they need the wing spot, man. I think you got. I mean, you got sharp. You got Denny, you know, you got.
Max Kellerman
Is Denny a wing?
Rich Paul
Denny's a wing. Yeah. I like the kid that got. I can't pronounce his last name, but tough on defensive end.
Max Kellerman
So you think they need a five.
Rich Paul
Four. Five spot is upgrade. Four or five spots. Upgrade. And I probably. Would. Probably would try to add another.
Max Kellerman
A Draymond Green.
Rich Paul
Some more shooting. I don't have the name Max, but.
Max Kellerman
Okay. You want to hear a voicemail?
Rich Paul
Sure.
Max Kellerman
Let's hit this.
Rich Paul
Hey, guys.
Max Kellerman
So I was listening to the most
Rich Paul
recent episode, and I heard Max say
Max Kellerman
that the NBA has, I think he
Rich Paul
said, the most meaningless regular season, but
Max Kellerman
they have the most exciting postseason.
Rich Paul
That kind of caught my attention because I actually feel like baseball can hold a candle to that. I think they have probably the best
Max Kellerman
postseason out of all the major schools.
Rich Paul
I agree with him. And it's kind of ironic because they
Max Kellerman
have a 162 game season. So that kind of leads it to
Rich Paul
my question, which is if the NBA
Max Kellerman
seems to be getting most of their money from.
Rich Paul
Or I should say owners are getting most of their money from media deals,
Max Kellerman
they're getting billions of dollars from Amazon, NBC.
Rich Paul
I guess my question is, would it really hurt to cut 10, 12 regular season games? Yes. Yes. First of all, the owners does not get most of their money from the TV deal. They get most of their money from the businesses that they built that provided the money to buy the team in the first place.
Max Kellerman
Basketball.
Rich Paul
Oh, well, he said that could. For the listeners, that could be very misleading because these high. These guys have unbelievable portfolios that allow them to have the, the net worth they have and could purchase these teams. Not just one team, multiple teams.
Max Kellerman
Know how many subprime loans these guys had to.
Rich Paul
I wouldn't.
Max Kellerman
You know how many houses had to be foreclosed on for these guys to get these billions of dollars?
Rich Paul
That's fine, but do you know how many multiples of value that is now have in place when you paid $250 million for a team and it's now worth 9 billion?
Max Kellerman
No question. Who cares how many people are homeless now after all the, all the foreclosures?
Rich Paul
Now wait a minute.
Max Kellerman
What does that mean?
Rich Paul
But I agree with. I don't watch baseball into the postseason. I love the baseball postseason. Love it.
Max Kellerman
Here's the thing about baseball. He's right. If it's your team in the postseason, I do like if the. And here's the thing about the regular season. Baseball's a way too long regular season. But you could throw on a baseball game like wallpaper. So I like all those regular season games because I could just put it on in the house. I'm watching the Yankees. I don't have to pay attention to everything. You know, I can live my life and they're the Yankees on. Any room I walk into, they're the Yankees on. I'm good. When they're in the playoffs. Baseball, postseason. Yankees are in. I'm so happy.
Rich Paul
Me too.
Max Kellerman
If the Yankees aren't in the playoffs, you don't care. Never happens. I couldn't care less. I don't care about. Baseball is such a local sport. Basketball and football, you're still watching the postseason and you care about their national.
Rich Paul
So you didn't watch the Dodgers and, and the Blue Jays last year?
Max Kellerman
I did watch that.
Rich Paul
Yes, you did. I know you did. Yes.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
So you just lied to the viewers.
Max Kellerman
Well, I watched that series. First of all. I'm here. I'm here in la. I could see Dodger Stadium from my house, you know. So like, I don't know. It's still.
Rich Paul
No, but it was an exciting season. Yeah, I'm the same Way with the Yankees, if my guardians isn't in the game. Or the Yankees.
Max Kellerman
Right.
Rich Paul
But now it's. Or the Dodgers, too, for me.
Max Kellerman
Now I see what you mean.
Rich Paul
And. Or the Red Sox, because there's.
Max Kellerman
If the Padres are playing all over the place. If the Padres are playing the White Sox in the World Series, let me know who wins.
Rich Paul
Fair point.
Max Kellerman
Right. And by the way, it's. It's not exactly true because I work in sports, so I like to know what's going on. Anyway, my point is I'm not. I'm not. It's not. It's a very different. So of course I'm going to watch the World Series, but it's a very different feeling for me.
Rich Paul
Yes. That's. As a fan. Now I have to watch the baseball. If, if we have a client in the World Series, I'm definitely going to watch it.
Max Kellerman
So, you know, but as a fan, Chiefs can play, you know, Patriots or
Rich Paul
in the Super Bowl. Yes.
Max Kellerman
Like I'm, of course, in the AFC championship or one of the championship games,
Rich Paul
or even an early Pittsburgh or a Monday night game.
Max Kellerman
If the Steelers are playing the Ravens in the playoffs, I'm there.
Rich Paul
Speaking of that.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
Football's coming up, Max.
Max Kellerman
Yeah.
Rich Paul
Who are we going to get to join us?
Max Kellerman
That's a good question.
Rich Paul
For the whole season. We need.
Max Kellerman
We need.
Rich Paul
We need an NFL player or coach. Yeah. To join us.
Max Kellerman
Correct.
Rich Paul
For the entire.
Max Kellerman
College football, too.
Rich Paul
And college football.
Max Kellerman
Yeah. We need to think about that. I have some ideas.
Rich Paul
You know, send some voicemails to give us some ideas, some names of some guys who should.
Max Kellerman
Or join.
Rich Paul
You an actual guy or you're an actual guy. Hey, we would love to have you. Come on.
Max Kellerman
You got one of our numbers.
Rich Paul
My number's been the same for 25 years.
Max Kellerman
Everyone has my number. All right. I don't.
Rich Paul
All right, Max, I think.
Max Kellerman
I think that's enough. I think that's enough. 21 and over in select states for Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-78-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-7707.
Hosts: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul
Date: May 27, 2026
Presented by: The Ringer
This lively episode centers on the NBA Conference Finals, dissecting the Oklahoma City Thunder's pivotal Game 5 win over the San Antonio Spurs, which puts them up 3-2 in the series, and the New York Knicks clinching a Finals berth. Kellerman and Paul offer an insider's lens on playoff fatigue, coaching strategy, the evolution of front offices (and the Knicks’ nontraditional rise), and dive into a mailbag featuring hypotheticals on Ja Morant, the Portland Trail Blazers, and the NBA postseason’s value. The dialogue is rich with sharp banter, basketball history, and front-office insight.
Fatigue and Scheduling
On the Thunder’s Role Players and Shooting
Officiating and Game-Changing Moments
Thunder’s X-Factor: Chet Holmgren
Spurs’ Achilles Heel: Shooting
Building Outside the Box
On Evaluating Front-Office Backgrounds
Trade Philosophy
Analytics in Team Building and In-Game Decision Making
Historical Talent Evaluation
Cavs Discussion: How to Move Forward?
Draft Pick Strategy
| Time | Segment | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:19-04:55| Playoff fatigue, travel, and impact on player performance | | 07:20-14:39| Key Spurs-Thunder moments, shooting woes, home court significance | | 19:30-23:54| Knicks’ nontraditional path: front office, trades, process | | 32:12-41:22| Mike Brown’s impact, playoff awards, Karl-Anthony Towns’ role | | 43:29-45:11| Analytics: useful tool or overrated? Talent evaluation in the NBA | | 47:08-49:32| Cavs’ situation: trade assets, what’s next? | | 53:30-55:09| Ja Morant trade hypothetical, impact of market and crowd | | 64:55-67:33| Portland’s offseason prospects | | 67:46-72:15| Listener voicemails: Season shortening, postseason vs. regular season value |
A mix of serious basketball insight and good-natured, often hilarious banter. Both hosts are candid, respectful of basketball tradition but grounded in reality and forward-thinking. Frequent references to history, front-office dynamics, and the lived realities of players, agents, and execs.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone invested in how NBA teams are built—on the court and in the conference room. You get a raw, smart breakdown of the Conference Finals, real talk about what separates champion organizations, and strong opinions on everything from Wemby’s usage to Knicks fans’ birthright to expect (many more) championships. If you want to understand why the NBA looks the way it does in 2026—on and off the court—this is your window in.