Thunder Go Up 3-2, and the Knicks Are in the Finals | Game Over

Summary

Game Over Podcast: "Thunder Go Up 3-2, and the Knicks Are in the Finals"

Hosts: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul
Date: May 27, 2026
Presented by: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This lively episode centers on the NBA Conference Finals, dissecting the Oklahoma City Thunder's pivotal Game 5 win over the San Antonio Spurs, which puts them up 3-2 in the series, and the New York Knicks clinching a Finals berth. Kellerman and Paul offer an insider's lens on playoff fatigue, coaching strategy, the evolution of front offices (and the Knicks’ nontraditional rise), and dive into a mailbag featuring hypotheticals on Ja Morant, the Portland Trail Blazers, and the NBA postseason’s value. The dialogue is rich with sharp banter, basketball history, and front-office insight.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Thunder vs. Spurs: Game 5 Analysis

• Fatigue and Scheduling

  • Both hosts highlight the grueling playoff schedule, especially the lack of travel days:
    • Max: “These playoffs, they give 'em one day when they're switching cities. ... I think fatigue hurt the Spurs tonight.” (05:27)
    • Rich: “Everyone's tired, man… Game five of the Western Conference finals, so I can't talk about being tired.” (03:04)
  • Specific focus on Victor Wembanyama’s minutes and wear:
    • Max: “Wemby… Now all of a sudden they're making him play… much more than he's played. ... He tried, but he just lacked the coordination. He looked tired.” (02:07)

• On the Thunder’s Role Players and Shooting

  • The Thunder's depth and shot-making swing the game:
    • Rich: “OKC made shots tonight they didn't make in Game Four in San Antonio.” (03:45)
    • Max: “The Spurs couldn't throw it in the ocean.” (03:48)
  • Adjustments are at the heart of playoff series:
    • Rich: "That's why you make adjustments. Dagenault made an adjustment... This is what heavyweight bouts are about." (03:51)

• Officiating and Game-Changing Moments

  • Discussion of missed calls and momentum-shifting plays:
    • Max: “Clear goaltend... They don’t call it. That’s a two-point swing.” (07:38)
    • Rich: “Those three possessions… It was like a six-point swing.” (07:59)
  • Despite frustration: “You're down 10 to start the fourth quarter... if we can be down 6 with 5 minutes to go... you're in reach. It just didn't go their way tonight.” (08:18)

• Thunder’s X-Factor: Chet Holmgren

  • Max: “When Chet is himself, the OKC Thunder... are a formidable team. Without him... just a typical powerhouse. But when he's playing well, very, very tough to beat.” (08:41)

• Spurs’ Achilles Heel: Shooting

  • The Spurs’ reliance on young, non-shooter core:
    • Max: “The Achilles heel is two players... especially high-leverage minutes, and our foundational pieces are not good shooters. Harper and Castle. Right?” (09:59)
    • Rich: “Yet… I think they will develop.” (10:00)
    • Max: "If the Spurs lose, it will be because of the shooting." (11:25)
    • Rich: "It's a make or miss league... Thunder knows that and we know that." (11:25)

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The Knicks’ Nontraditional Journey to the Finals

• Building Outside the Box

  • Rich goes deep on the “nontraditional” methods that brought the Knicks to the Finals:
    • “The Knicks decided to take a nontraditional route… Like trade five first round picks for Mikal Bridges that you have been going crazy about.” (19:30)
    • “Going to get Jalen Brunson was nontraditional. Not trading for Donovan Mitchell was nontraditional.” (19:34)
    • “Firing Tibbs after hiring Tibbs and bringing in Mike Brown. All these things… no one said to them, 'Oh, that was the right move.'” (19:51)
  • Front Office Synergy
    • Rich applauds the blend of former agent (Leon Rose), a relationship specialist (Worldwide Wes), analytics (Brock), and owner Dolan not interfering (21:08-21:40)
    • “Their owners... Did not get in their way. Yes, yes. So that matters.” (21:39)
  • Max admits: “If the Knicks win the whole thing, I have to take that all back. ... It would do it for a chip.” (19:30)

• On Evaluating Front-Office Backgrounds

  • Max: “Is the claim... an agent running a front office... is an advantage?” (22:48)
  • Rich: “No, I'm not going to go that far... What I'm going to say is different understanding. You don't take the traditional process route.” (23:05)
  • Relates Rich’s own path—learning outsider lessons and applying to sports business— to the agent-turned-exec route.

• Trade Philosophy

  • Knicks’ willingness to make nontraditional, bold trades and not hang onto homegrown picks if it means advancing:
    • Rich: “Normally you would think, 'Oh, we have to see this through.' They moved him (Quickley).” (27:31)

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Coaching, Strategy, and Team Culture

• Mike Brown’s Coaching Mastery
  • Max: “Mike Brown has unlocked this offense... Knicks have the best playoff point differential in the history of basketball.” (32:12)
  • “He has taken them over the top... they’re much better” (32:52)
  • Both hosts: Regular season vs. playoff awards are dumb; postseason should count for awards. (32:28-32:41)
• Karl-Anthony Towns’ Evolution
  • Max: “Karl Anthony Towns... He is running the Knicks offense at least as much as Brunson is and making great decisions... he is justifying the draft pick.” (34:00-35:23)
  • Rich on Towns’ IQ: “You don't get to this point of the season without being... having a high IQ. The game gods aren't blessing stupidity to win a Finals.” (41:22)
• Importance of High-IQ Bigs
  • Rich: “Your big man... when you look at the Bulls... Lakers... Pistons... Spurs... Rockets... in order to run the triangle offense, your bigs have to have high iq.” (39:55)
  • “You don't get to this point of the season without having a high iq.” (41:22)

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Talent Evaluation, Analytics, and the Business of Basketball

• Analytics in Team Building and In-Game Decision Making

  • Max: “To be a slave to analytics is a bad thing... We will never have perfect knowledge. Analytics will always fail to capture some value; they should be used as an important tool but not the final say.” (43:29)
  • Rich: “Analytics is like condiments or like salt and pepper. It's not the meal.” (43:40)
  • Both: Scouting and relationships still reign supreme.

• Historical Talent Evaluation

  • Ginobili (2nd round), Parker (#29), Jokic (2nd round); greatest teams are built by great talent evaluators (46:45)

• Cavs Discussion: How to Move Forward?

  • Max: “Do you build around Donovan Mitchell and the two bigs? Do you move Allen or Mobley? Do you move Mitchell?” (47:08)
  • Rich: “What the Cavs should do is not be satisfied with the season… have an open mind… They were in the Eastern Conference finals, but so far away.” (47:45)

• Draft Pick Strategy

  • Max: “If I'm moving one of those guys, I want a high pick back.” (49:06)
  • Rich: “I like proven players. Draft picks are great... but it's a swing just like anything else.” (49:32)

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Engaging Mailbag: Notable Listener Questions

Ja Morant Hypothetical (Sacramento or Bust)

• Q: If the Memphis Grizzlies move Ja Morant, who should be first in line?
  • Rich: “Sacramento. ... I think Scott Perry has an ability to really, I think he can connect with Ja Morant because I think a guy like Ja Morant, he needs to feel you're real.” (53:38)
  • Max: “When Ja was at his best... Most reminding me of Michael Jordan. The way he floated in the Air.” (54:00)
  • Discussion over whether Sacramento would be a graveyard for players and the unique pressure of big vs. small market fanbases. (55:09)

Portland Trail Blazers: Quick Contender Path?

• Rich: “Portland is about a piece and a half away. ... Four or five spot is upgrade. And probably would try to add some more shooting.” (64:55–67:33)
• Max suggests: “Kawhi Leonard could be available... exactly what they need” (65:04)
  • Rich pushes back: “I’m a big Kawhi fan. I don’t know if I want to mess with that [chemistry].” (65:30)

The Value of the NBA Regular Season

• Listener raises whether it’s time to shorten the NBA's regular season, given TV money dominance.
  • Rich: “The owners do not get most of their money from the TV deal. ... They get most of their money from the businesses that they built.” (68:15)
  • Max/Listener argue that the NBA has the most meaningless regular season and the most exciting postseason (67:55)
  • Both agree the baseball playoff experience is unique, but NBA/football have broader national postseason appeal. (70:08)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

On Wembanyama’s Fatigue and Motivation

• Max: “I saw a shot of Wemby... Like all athletes, he's looking for motivation wherever he can find it. He hates Chet, right? And I'm like, ooh, he's about to give him the business. And he tried, but he just lacked the coordination. He looked tired.” (02:07)

On Coaching & Front Office Evolution

• Rich: “Sometimes it's okay to be nontraditional because it causes you not to overthink the situation.” (26:41)
• Max: “If the Knicks win the whole thing... the Bridges trade... it's proof of concept.” (27:03)

On Accountability and Coaching

• Rich: “There's one word: accountability. Mike Brown gets the best out of the players. I don't know how he does it, but he does it.” (37:09)

NBA Lore & Knicks Fans

• Max: “Knicks fans... the Knicks owe their fans about 18 championships.” (57:34)

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Notable Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:19-04:55| Playoff fatigue, travel, and impact on player performance | | 07:20-14:39| Key Spurs-Thunder moments, shooting woes, home court significance | | 19:30-23:54| Knicks’ nontraditional path: front office, trades, process | | 32:12-41:22| Mike Brown’s impact, playoff awards, Karl-Anthony Towns’ role | | 43:29-45:11| Analytics: useful tool or overrated? Talent evaluation in the NBA | | 47:08-49:32| Cavs’ situation: trade assets, what’s next? | | 53:30-55:09| Ja Morant trade hypothetical, impact of market and crowd | | 64:55-67:33| Portland’s offseason prospects | | 67:46-72:15| Listener voicemails: Season shortening, postseason vs. regular season value |

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Tone & Style

A mix of serious basketball insight and good-natured, often hilarious banter. Both hosts are candid, respectful of basketball tradition but grounded in reality and forward-thinking. Frequent references to history, front-office dynamics, and the lived realities of players, agents, and execs.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for anyone invested in how NBA teams are built—on the court and in the conference room. You get a raw, smart breakdown of the Conference Finals, real talk about what separates champion organizations, and strong opinions on everything from Wemby’s usage to Knicks fans’ birthright to expect (many more) championships. If you want to understand why the NBA looks the way it does in 2026—on and off the court—this is your window in.

Transcript

[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

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[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

infection, flu like symptoms or need a vaccine.

[Max Kellerman]

Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about tremphya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremphyaradio.com. So you know, I was thinking about scheduling because these playoffs, they don't give them, they give them one day when they're switching cities. You get one day. They don't really have a travel day. And I think it shows up. Yeah, I think showed up tonight, I

[Rich Paul]

thought, yeah, scheduling matters, I think. Look, I've been a lot of, I've been a part of a lot of playoff series. It's a series, it's a seven game series for a reason. You punching, you get punched back. You get punched, you have to punch back. I thought in tonight's game there were moments of frustration by the Spurs. I thought there were times where they turned the ball over carelessly and you know, you can't do that type of stuff on the road. Obviously you don't shoot as well on the road as you do at home sometimes.

[Max Kellerman]

Was it fatigue related to.

[Rich Paul]

Look, everyone's tired, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but everyone's tired for someone like Wemby. They put him on a minutes restriction all year. He averaged under 30 minutes a game.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Now all of a sudden they're making him play. Of course you have to much more than he's played. And I saw him in the fourth quarter tonight and I thought he was getting ready to take over the game when the ball went out of on Chet's foot and then they huddled up. It looked like the refs might review the call, but then they didn't. And then they didn't give the spurs the challenge. Yes, I saw a shot of Wemby at one second and you know, like all athletes he's looking for motivation wherever he can find it. He hates Chet, right? And. And I'm like, ooh, he's about to give him the business. And he tried, but he just lacked the coordination. He looked tired.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And so. So that guy. So on top of everything else, it's just wa. You know, everyone has to travel. You're right. But I think it is. It's especially bad for Wemby given the, like, where he is in his career, what his minutes have been, how much he's playing right now, all that.

[Rich Paul]

Look, no one's going to give any sympathy for that. And tired. Tired.

[Max Kellerman]

They don't deserve it, and he doesn't want that.

[Rich Paul]

Tired, doesn't tire, doesn't make an excuse. It's game five of the Western Conference finals, so I can't talk about being tired. Everyone's tired. This is where you dig down deep, you know? This is why you do the training in the summertime. This is why he went to see the monks, to mentally get over that. You know, that. That fatigue. If the body is telling you one thing, your mind is telling you something different. That's part of the process.

[Max Kellerman]

You go see those monks. We grew up on the same kung fu flicks. He. He should be able to walk straight up a wall by now.

[Rich Paul]

No, no.

[Max Kellerman]

You know, that's what happens. You go see those monks again, and then, you know, you're hanging upside down,

[Rich Paul]

watch the floor, that game, and you're

[Max Kellerman]

climbing up those walls.

[Rich Paul]

OKC made shots tonight they didn't make in game four in San Antonio.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, you're right. And also, the spurs couldn't throw it in the ocean.

[Rich Paul]

And I also think, look, that's why you make adjustments. Dagenaut made an adjustment. I imagine Mitch comes back and make an adjustment. This is what heavyweight bouts are about.

[Max Kellerman]

But, you know, like, okay, so you and I are traveling back from San Antonio.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I was traveling back from San Antonio. You decided to take an American flight that got canceled.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, fine, fine.

[Rich Paul]

And then you had to get on my Delta flight.

[Max Kellerman]

I should have known to get back

[Rich Paul]

home when I told you to fly Delta to begin with. Go ahead.

[Max Kellerman]

This is a true story. You told me, hey, get on this Delta flight. But I'd already had the ticket booked through my manager's office. So I'm like. So I'm like, okay. Through Michael's. So I'm like, okay, I already got the ticket. Whatever. It'll be fine.

[Rich Paul]

I get.

[Max Kellerman]

I get a text from American. Like, it must have been midnight or so. It Was like, you know, late night. The flights taking off in a few hours canceled. So luckily there was a seat left on Delta.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

So I grabbed that.

[Rich Paul]

It's canceled for weather.

[Max Kellerman]

What weather? Same weather. Delta they're flying in. Delta has its own weather, which was great. Pretty good, Ed. Yeah, pretty good. I got Delta.

[Rich Paul]

Fantastic. Got your own clouds to fly in.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Own everything. Pretty cool. Yeah, I knew that already, but I know just from. In terms of travel and everything. Okay. I know it's different for NBA players. They have their own chartered flights and the whole thing. But, you know, you're not getting much sleep on that on that day. You know, I'm going on two hours sleep. I, you know, but it's not like you.

[Rich Paul]

It's not like you traveling from some west coast Western Conference games. Could be.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, it's not the same.

[Rich Paul]

Could be Portland to Memphis. That's a long way.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, I made that flight without, you know, and okay, fine. I didn't have to. He has to play a game the day after. But still. Anyway, I thought that. I think, I think fatigue hurt the spurs tonight.

[Rich Paul]

I think you could be tired, but also.

[Max Kellerman]

And the Thunder's depth, the role players. Well, you know what? Let's get into this.

[Rich Paul]

Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. This is called the cold open, but we're ready to start the actual show. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul. Game over at Spotify.com 424-240-8341. Leave a voicemail. We're actually going to play. Someone finally left an intelligible voicemail. We can actually hear the voicemail. So we're going to play at least one voicemail today. Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

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[Rich Paul]

When we're talking about this series again, I've been a part of a lot of series. When I think about tonight's game, sometimes there's moments within the game that are deflating, very deflating. And I feel like in this game tonight they just started compounding for the Spurs.

[Max Kellerman]

You come out in the third quarter

[Rich Paul]

just overall the entire game not making the shots that you normally would make.

[Max Kellerman]

Lot of mid ranges. Were they were bricking them? Yes.

[Rich Paul]

Then the ball goes off of Chet's foot. Mitch calls for the challenge. The refs don't see it.

[Max Kellerman]

Hold on. Go before that. Clear goaltend. You could see goaltending, by the way. Everyone could see that in real time.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And they don't call it. That's a two point swing.

[Rich Paul]

Well, two series before that. De' Aaron gets fouled on the drive. They don't call it. And then goes on the other end and files McCain on the floor. They call it a shot and the. And one.

[Max Kellerman]

And those three possessions that we just spoke about. It was like a six point swing where it was. I think it was like 11. It should have been like 5 and instead it was, you know.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but.

[Max Kellerman]

Or maybe it was eight and it

[Rich Paul]

should have been still in all of that. You're on the road. You down 10 to start the fourth quarter.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Given how they were playing, they're actually right where they want to be. You're down 10 to start the fourth quarter. So now if we can be down 6 with 5 minutes to go. With 6 minutes to go, you're in reach. And it just didn't go their way tonight. But you regroup, you readjust. Gotta remember that's still the OKC Thunder.

[Max Kellerman]

And you know why? It was defending champs the OKC Thunder tonight. I know McCain and other guys had what the reason. When I think of OKC last year, I was like, how's anyone going to beat this team? Because they were rolling the league and Chet wasn't even playing. They were going to get Chet back. I was like, oh my God, you're going to parachute this dude onto this team. Who's going to beat them? But these playoffs, especially in this series, where's Chet been tonight? He showed up right when Chet is himself, the OKC Thunder, they are a formidable team. Without him, they're just a kind of typical powerhouse Western Conference team. But when he's really playing well, they're very, very tough to beat.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, yeah, listen, it's not going to be easy to beat the OKC Thunder.

[Max Kellerman]

And you're going to have to shoot it like, listen, you got to beat him.

[Rich Paul]

You have to beat him.

[Max Kellerman]

Champagne and Kelden.

[Rich Paul]

And Kelden actually played better, but he

[Max Kellerman]

didn't shoot it well. And de' Aaron, they. And then. Because the problem is Castle and this is the structural problem the spurs have and they're going to have it going forward. The Achilles heel is two players who are going to see a lot of minutes and especially high leverage minutes. And our foundational pieces are not good shooters. Harper and Castle. Right.

[Rich Paul]

Yet.

[Max Kellerman]

Yet, Right. And you're thinking they will develop the shooters.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

But they're going to have to have nights where they shoot it better than they shot it tonight.

[Rich Paul]

Well, that's. Listen, at the beginning of the series, we talked about each conference. There was one word for each conference. What was the word in the Western Conference? I said.

[Max Kellerman]

See, if I would have said it, I would remember exactly.

[Rich Paul]

You would. It was shooting.

[Max Kellerman]

Bullshit. Bullshit. My line.

[Rich Paul]

Bullshit. Bullshit. It was shooting.

[Max Kellerman]

Shooting.

[Rich Paul]

Because I. Because I thought that's the one advantage that OKC did have.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, 100%. And it showed up tonight.

[Rich Paul]

And Pressy double shooting piece by going to get a McCain.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

He doubled down on it. And so. But we've seen the best shooting team in the world go cold in the fourth quarter in 2016. So you just have to beat. You just have to beat them.

[Max Kellerman]

I was listening to like Reggie Miller made the point and I think a lot of basketball heads make the point that this very sloppy game. And. And it's like you don't normally blame teams when they're missing shots because you figure that was a good look, it was a smart shot to take. It just didn't go in. Yeah, it's like that. But sloppy play, you should have more control over. But Rich, sometimes I feel like that's true. And when. And you can criticize the sloppy play because it's. But also you got to hit shots. No, like you can't. You can't. Like if. If the spurs lose, it will be because of the shooting.

[Rich Paul]

It's a make or miss league. Yeah, they know that. Thunder knows that and we know that.

[Max Kellerman]

Even when. Yeah, well.

[Rich Paul]

Right, let's move on to Game 6.

[Max Kellerman]

Also, Wemby, the way they were using them early in the game by this change in the second half. But he won't get any touches.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, he.

[Max Kellerman]

Why wouldn't he get Wemby some touches? He's eight feet tall.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, you want to get off to a better flow. I think it was just how the game started. It was only down 2 to go into the second quarter. So.

[Max Kellerman]

Believe it or not, Rich, you know, I feel like Wemby. I know it's not. I know it's not what I'm about to say, but it gives me a similar feeling. When LeBron first got to Miami and he was deferring to D. Wade, you could see it wasn't right. Yet. Wemby is at the point of his career as a very team oriented player. He's. It's not that he's afraid to impose himself. Like when check gets under his skin, he wants to make a point. He has taken over a couple of games at home, right. I wish he was a little more selfish in this series like Wemby. There are times where I feel like his get a little closer to the basket, you know, on offense, I know that's not always the way, but like, you know, get a little closer to the basket and impose yourself a little more.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I don't, I don't think you're saying anything that, that they don't think. I think they think the same thing. Be a little bit more selfish. Even his teammates, they would love to see him probably be a little bit more selfish, right? They would love to probably have him get cleaner looks. Right. And I think that comes with being able to, you know, have them positioned in different spots on the floor to where he's simplifying the workload and things like that. But yeah, I think Wimby has to have at least 20 field goal attempts.

[Max Kellerman]

And how many you have in the first half?

[Rich Paul]

It wasn't many. I think it was like maybe a couple. Yeah, five maybe. I don't know.

[Max Kellerman]

I don't even think so. Like, I was, I was in the first quarter, I was like, what's going on?

[Rich Paul]

But you go back, you look at the film and you come back ready to go. If you okc, you're like, you know what? We don't want a Game seven. We don't want a Game seven. When you're in this type of situation, you do not want a Game seven because a Game seven for jump shooting team as good as okc. It just takes a cold night, man. You don't want a Game seven.

[Max Kellerman]

I was talking to Jacoby before the, before the show and he raised a kind of a simple and an obvious but I think correct question, which is considering role players, the old saying goes, play better at home in these kind of games, right? Did if the, if. If everyone holds serve and the Thunder wind up winning because they defend home court, did they win this series in the regular season?

[Rich Paul]

Did who?

[Max Kellerman]

The Thunder? Because if, if everyone's just going to win at home, if no one's going to win a Road game Thunder going to win the series.

[Rich Paul]

Well, the regular season that they had won in the series. Just right. Yeah. Because they didn't win home court. They didn't win the regular season against the Spurs.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no. But I'm saying because the record in that they have home court.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, that's the importance of it.

[Max Kellerman]

I think maybe. I think maybe that's right.

[Rich Paul]

Could be.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Chet. I mean, Chet finally had a good game. He's not a role player, but guys like McCain and you know, Jalen Williams played better tonight.

[Rich Paul]

I told you he wouldn't miss the shots that he missed in San Antonio.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, yeah, you did say that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

You think it's going seven?

[Rich Paul]

I do, Yeah. I think it's going seven.

[Max Kellerman]

I know what this sounds like because I picked the spurs in the series and I. Let me just say. I'll preface it by saying shooting is by far. If the spurs lose, it's because they don't shoot it well enough. The refs, to me, are calling it straight up and down in San Antonio. Meaning San Antonio's not getting friendly whistles at home, but they're getting straight up and down in okc. Maybe it's coincidence, but, man, like, early in the series, there was a lot of missed calls. Shay was getting a lot. And tonight there were a lot of missed calls.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, there were a lot of missed calls. There was a lot of missed calls tonight. But I know it was a big game. It's a big series. You know how I know? Because I saw my guy Ted Kirby tonight at the Gang. And you know when you. When you have signature athletes, like signature shoe guys playing the big dogs come out. So Ted was there tonight. I saw him there tonight. I was talking to him after the game. That normally don't happen. If it would. If you don't have a lot on the line for this series, it's a lot on the line for this series.

[Max Kellerman]

You know what's, what's great about the NBA right now? The. One of the strengths of the NBA is that the best team almost always wins the championship because it's a best of seven series. Right. So the best team almost. Not every year. Some years you might be like, I think this team was better. It was an injury, it was this, it was that. Most years you're like, best team.

[Rich Paul]

You don't feel the same way in college.

[Max Kellerman]

No.

[Rich Paul]

Because one and done. One and done.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Anything could happen. That's why. That's why. But.

[Rich Paul]

Or like a cold shooting night, a

[Max Kellerman]

lot of times the best team doesn't win the super bowl, they got hot at the right time. They were, you know, and it's because it's also like college. It's one and done.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

The nature of football, you can't have a series.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you got weather. There's a lot of.

[Max Kellerman]

Baseball is too random. Baseball, baseball. A lot of times the best team's not going to win. It's the way it goes. It's the nature of the game. But the nature of basketball.

[Rich Paul]

My Indians didn't win in 95 or 97. Yeah, they were best team.

[Max Kellerman]

But the nature. They could have pitched it a little better. They could hit it. But the nature of basketball and the number of games you play means the. But. But the flip of that is it kind of ruins the playoffs a little bit or has in the past because you have a very strong sense heading in who's going to win it or what. Two, maybe three teams will be there at the end. That has changed in recent years, like going into these playoffs. If you would have told me that I think the Knicks should be favored in the Finals no matter who comes out of the West, I'd be. Come on, man. No, favored. But at this point, I think that's the. And that's happened in recent years where it's been difficult to predict or more than it used to be, who's going to win the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

Well, I think in recent years, so many different things happened during the course of the playoffs that it was hard to predict one thing.

[Max Kellerman]

What? Injuries.

[Rich Paul]

You mean injuries?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, there have been a lot of injuries in the playoffs.

[Rich Paul]

Injuries. Again, the journey that you take, the seedings that you get, which sides you get matched up on, that matters.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. But in the Knicks, OKC case, if they meet, I might like the Knicks. But partly that is because partly it's because the way the Knicks are playing, partly it's because OKC is something less than 100%. And the Knicks, knock wood, have been healthy. They've been healthy and that's a big thing.

[Rich Paul]

They play.

[Max Kellerman]

But the spurs are healthy. Like. And if the Knicks play the Spurs, I think I would still maybe take the Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

Spurs are somewhat healthy. They're not fully healthy.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, the Knicks are healthier.

[Rich Paul]

Knicks are healthier. But this leads me, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes.

[Rich Paul]

To a get rich quick about the Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, I'm all ears.

[Rich Paul]

Because let me tell you something. The Knicks have been knocking on the door for the last couple years. They had some unfortunate injuries and then

[Max Kellerman]

after decades of not even being near the door.

[Rich Paul]

That's okay. Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. They were down. They had to hop the train to take the bus, to take a cab, to get up the block, to get to the door.

[Rich Paul]

But let me tell you why they're here, all right? The Knicks decided to take a non traditional route to get to the promised land, to put them in a position to win a championship. And it was looking a little murky, it was looking a little bleak, but they decided to stay the course. And when you take a non traditional route, you do non traditional Things like trade 5 first round picks from Mikal Bridges that you have been going crazy about.

[Max Kellerman]

If the Knicks win the whole thing, I have to take that all back. Yes, but it would do it for a chip.

[Rich Paul]

But it was non traditional, actually. Going to get Jalen Brunson was non traditional. Not trading for Donovan Mitchell was non traditional because everyone would chase the normal name, the bigger name in that case.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Going to get a guy like an

[Max Kellerman]

Oompa Loompa backcourt with those two, though.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm saying they didn't do it. Going to get a guy like OG training for Carl Anthony Towns firing Tibbs after hiring Tibbs and bringing in Mike Brown. All these things that you cannot say. No one said to them, oh, that was the right move. Oh, that was perfect. Or that was. That should have happened that way or you shouldn't. You should have went and got Josh Hart, who people have forgot about down in New Orleans.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, going the new, the Nova Knicks putting that team back.

[Rich Paul]

Let me tell you why it was non traditional and why it made a lot of sense. Because they're not focused on process. They're not focused on trying to extend a certain thing. And, and this is how it normally goes. They did what they felt, what the gut told them to do. And they align a situation in a guy like Leon, who was a former agent. When you are a former agent, you know the player, you know what you're looking for. You know the player better than analytics. Analytics can't tell you about a player that you represented and you know that guy, that's number one. The next thing is they take a guy like Wes, who's a relationship guy worldwide.

[Max Kellerman]

Wes, right.

[Rich Paul]

He's a relationship guy. Then you add a guy like Brock, who is the mathematician. So collectively they're saying, we're going to do this, we're going to huddle up and do this. We're going to focus on these things. We're going to be true to ourselves despite what anybody thinks. And then a guy you don't give enough credit to, which is what you actually need. Didn't get in their way. Their owners.

[Max Kellerman]

I, I credit Dolan for this.

[Rich Paul]

Did not get in there.

[Max Kellerman]

Got out of the way.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, yes. So that matters.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

Once, once you found something, he was

[Max Kellerman]

too busy following kids around with surveillance videos and SWAT teams around the Madison Square Garden.

[Rich Paul]

But once you found something that works, and again, that's one aspect of it, the next thing that matters is the journey they fell on. Some bad luck. Guy gets injured, you go up against a Boston team that was fully healthy and rolling, you wasn't going to beat them. But now we're here. Last year, what was it? Halliburton? What was it? Game one? No, but game one, remember he hit the turnaround shot on Mitchell Robinson. So now they still won at home. It's on the road rather. Again, this is.

[Max Kellerman]

What is the point about non traditional.

[Rich Paul]

The non traditional mean you don't have a traditional mindset to say we're going to do these things within a process. Because the analytics say this or no, you're not doing that.

[Max Kellerman]

Is the claim that you're making that as an. As agents. And by the way, famously, they only dealt with like mainly dealt with CAA clients and you know, the whole thing.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but that's their prerogative.

[Max Kellerman]

But the idea that an agent running a front office as Pelinka does for the, for the Lakers, Well, Bob Myers was really on Rose. Right. Is an advantage because they have a better understanding of the players than a traditional GM or president.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm not going to go that far and say a better understanding. What I'm going to say is different understanding. You don't, you don't take the traditional process route.

[Max Kellerman]

You're not a slave to tradition.

[Rich Paul]

Well, you're just not. It'll be like, it'll be like a higher education. You're coming from a, you know, a higher education institution that teaches you to do this this way is. It's just I'm going off of what I think is right in my field. It may not be ideal. Like if you were raised to be a general manager, ideally you're not trading first five. Five first round picks for Mikhail Bridges.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

You will never do it. Just like you may never. Just like you may never say this happens a lot in the draft. I can't take that guy at number five, even if you need him.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But you say you can take him.

[Max Kellerman]

It's not value at 5.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Is it the guy or not?

[Rich Paul]

But that becomes. And there's a lot.

[Max Kellerman]

Do you relate to this because we've talked on this show about the life lessons you learned where you are from and applied them to an industry where traditionally, I mean, they tried to make the rich Paul rule, which is you have to have X, Y and Z degrees in order to be zero sense. Right. Because well, they were, I mean you should be very flattered they were targeting you. Obviously that's your competition thinking, let's take them out some other way. Right. But so, so you come as an outsider to that business going in a non traditional way and taking lessons you learned really in the street and in your neighborhood. Right. And applying them to, to an area where that's not normally applied and that. Now is there a parallel between that or do you relate to this now that we're talking about? Because the agent is coming from a point of view that is not traditionally where front offices come from.

[Rich Paul]

Absolutely. And there's, there's, don't get me wrong, there's very, very, very high level next

[Max Kellerman]

agent who could run a team where, where you never know where you could find that guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, well, there's very, very high level general managers and presidents. What I'm saying is in this case what helped them was the non traditional. Now we've seen some of the best executives in, in the business. Right. But some was ex players like a Pat Riley or Jerry West.

[Max Kellerman]

Some also a non traditional route. He went from a player to a broadcaster.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

To a coach.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. So you start non traditional.

[Max Kellerman]

I guess that's not that non traditional, but.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no, but, but, but also you're ending again non traditional, which has helped them in this case. Because sometimes the point I'm making is sometimes it's okay to be non traditional because it causes you not to overthink the situation. Because now if we sit back and we analyze and we second guess and we question and we know, we pose. We need this guy, Mikal Bridges. Who cares what anybody has to say about the picks. We need this guy. He fits exactly what we're talking about. He fits the three and D guy, he fits our locker room. He went to Villanova with our best. He's gonna have chemistry, gonna have chemistry, et cetera. We know this guy, Carl Anthony Towns. I've known him since he was a freshman in high school. You know, I'm just saying for this, I'm, I'm, I'm actually, I'm actually pleased to see the success because sometimes people try to hinder you not having experience in certain situations and they're, they gatekeep these type of situations when the reality of it is, no, every situation is different. You have to evaluate every situation differently. So that's all. I was just making the point.

[Max Kellerman]

I got a five minute max for you off now. Go ahead for this.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah.

[Max Kellerman]

I want to talk about.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, I left something. Oh, no, I didn't leave it. Go, go, go, go, go.

[Max Kellerman]

No, no, I want to hear it.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying the non traditional moves that was made is now getting what you would think would be the perfect processing results.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

So.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

Kudos to them.

[Max Kellerman]

I mean, and it's proof of like if they win the championship. The bridges trade, it's proof of concept. Right. If they win the championship. Hey, everyone. Hey, Kellerman. You're talking about, oh, we're idiots for trading five first. We got a chip out of it.

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the other thing. You draft R.J. barrett at three.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Another first round draft pick at 29 was Emmanuel Quickley.

[Max Kellerman]

Yep.

[Rich Paul]

You pay him and normally you would think, oh, we have to see this through. They moved him.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. I'm just saying, I mean the two trades that I couldn't believe they, they pulled off and I did not think Randle was great for the Knicks, but I know like he's a double double machine and he's. And he's playing like he's in a good spot for him. But I didn't feel like he made the Knicks better when he was playing just the way the team was constructed. So moving him for Carl Anthony Towns, the fact that they had to throw in, the fact that they had to put DiVincenzo in that broke my heart because I'm like, oh my God. However, you have to get Towns. And I honestly couldn't believe that they could land Towns for Randle and Divincenzo. I thought that was a steal. And then the other thing was the OG trade. Barrett and Quickley for og like when they made those deals, in both cases, which you, you never in the NBA want to turn a dollar into four quarters, but if you got four quarters, you can go get a dollar. Do it. And in both those trades, the Knicks traded four quarters for a dollar and they put OG and Cat together. Game over is brought to you by FanDuel. NBA playoffs are here. Everything's on the line. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings. The game tonight is your shot to boost your bet. That's right. All customers get a profit boost tonight. So when the moment hits, your win hits bigger. And FanDuel is giving you better payouts on same game parlays all NBA playoffs. Long. Lock in your bets, boost your odds and make the playoffs. Payoff with FanDuel, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. FanDuel play your game 21 and over in select states or 18 and over in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in required bonus issued as non withdrawable profit boost tokens gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them. Right? You're going to do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it [e-mail] gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com gameover that's ZipRecruiter.com gameOver meet your match on ZipRecruiter but okay, so here's my five minute max. There are two play. I mean OG gets credit and he deserves it. The two people I want to single out on the Knicks or the coach and when they have their best lineup on the floor, they're center Mike Brown. The fact that the Coach of the Year is given out just like all the other awards are idiotically given out after the regular season, but they don't count the playoffs. It's ridiculous. Mike Brown should absolutely be at the very least a finalist for Coach of the Year. He look what he's done when it mattered most. Look what he did.

[Rich Paul]

Coach of the Year has already been given out.

[Max Kellerman]

Look, Missoula got it. Go look at Go look at the Celtic Sixers series. One team advanced, one didn't. Arguably the better team did not advance was and I'm not arguing Missoula is not an excellent coach. Come on, who did a better job so far this year in its entirety? Mike Brown or Missoula? Which one?

[Rich Paul]

Well, given. I understand Mike because Tatum got hurt, given where the Celtics were supposed to be Missoula.

[Max Kellerman]

Mike Brown has unlocked this offense to the point where the Knicks have the best playoff point differential in the history of basketball.

[Rich Paul]

This is why, Max, you always say there should be regular season awards and playoff.

[Max Kellerman]

No, I think it should all be one award.

[Rich Paul]

No, you don't think that.

[Max Kellerman]

I absolutely do. Regular season awards, meaningless. You don't know.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, you saying you have to wait

[Max Kellerman]

to give out the awards till the whole thing is done.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, you saying just one award, so

[Max Kellerman]

the whole thing is done.

[Rich Paul]

But at the end of season.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, And. Or if you wanted to do. If you want to do regular season and then postseason awards, fine. But not just regular season. Nothing for the playoffs and finals.

[Rich Paul]

That's ridiculous.

[Max Kellerman]

But Mike Brown came into a situation where Tibbs had gotten them to a certain level. And sometimes a manager or a coach gets you to a certain point, builds respectability and changes the culture and all that stuff, but that is not the guy to take you over the top. Mike Brown came and he has taken them over the top in the sense that they're much better than. Look, when Tibbs came in, he got them there, right? And then they lost to a team they were better than because they were hurt. Yeah, but two years ago, by the

[Rich Paul]

way, that's okay, but.

[Max Kellerman]

But they lost to a team they're better than because they were hurt. But a lot of that is the. Is the intensity and the minutes that those guys were playing the following season. Here's the problem, Rich. The following season, the Knicks were healthy and they lost to the Pacers because the Pacers improved. And the Knicks had been backslid a little. Basically the same roster. They got a little worse.

[Rich Paul]

How'd they get worse?

[Max Kellerman]

They were better than the Pacers the year that. Two years ago. Right. They were better than them when they lost the first time they played the Pacers, but they were simply hurt the following season. Last year they lost to the Pacers and the Pacers were the better team.

[Rich Paul]

But the bigger, the big. The Pacers were also the Pacers. Remember, Halliburton didn't even make the all star team. The Pacers had a surgeons late. They were doing exactly what the Knicks are doing now.

[Max Kellerman]

They were running the team. They were running the offense through Brunson entirely. That is not the winning way to play. That is not Mike Brown Came in. Okay, so now I want to talk about the other guy who deserves credit. I don't think he's getting enough right now for one specific thing. Carl Anthony Towns has the reputation of being too soft a player. Right? Even I have been on this show saying, hey, he can't be cat. He's got to be dog, right? He's got to be dog. Anthony Towns, right? I know it's not a perfect parallel because it's cat. Carl Anthony Townes dog. I know, I know. Cut me some slack. The point is, a lot of times very high IQ players or finesse players are considered not rough enough, not hard enough. They're too soft. Karl Anthony Towns, what he's showing right now is a sky high basketball iq. Well, he's always had that, but he is showing it. He is like he is running the Knicks offense at least as much as Brunson is and making great decisions. And it has unlocked this team to the point where over the last however many games, it is now a dozen games, they're stomping out teams worse than any playoff ever stomped out.

[Rich Paul]

Mike just convinced him. Look, normally you don't win the championship with your best player being your smallest guy.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

You don't. And I know Becky's getting a lot of flack for what she said. I agree with her 100%, but that's a fact. Me and you talked about it. The only person, the only two people that has ever, ever, ever done it, Isaiah has been Isaiah Thomas of the Pistons and Steph Curry in 63.

[Max Kellerman]

63 doesn't count. That's too tall.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, you're saying Steph Curry don't count. Bullshit. Steph Curry does.

[Max Kellerman]

Six, three.

[Rich Paul]

No, Steph Curry counts because you try to act as if he did it one time.

[Max Kellerman]

Steph. Steph did it one time in 2020. Okay, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, but. Right, so. But what? What? Jalen Brunson is still the best player. But. But what Mike Brown did in adding to that offense was not just playing through Jalen. We're going to play through Catsum. We're going to get the ball moving. We're going to get guys, you know, just, just moving. That's why guys like Landry Shammit is getting these wide open threes, because you just added a different element. Let's not forget in 2016, after going to the Finals in 2015, the Cavaliers fired David Blatt.

[Max Kellerman]

Right?

[Rich Paul]

They fired David Blatt.

[Max Kellerman]

They brought in. They brought.

[Rich Paul]

They didn't break in. He was Sitting right next to the man.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. But Ty took him to the guys like Steve Kerr and Ty Lue. And if he gets it done, Mike Brown deserve. Yes, Mark Jackson and, and. And David Blatt and, and. And Thibodeau also deserve credit for getting them to a certain level. But when you bring in the coach, that puts them over the top. Mike Brown is going to elevate his standing in basketball.

[Rich Paul]

But why? What's the difference maker in these guys? I know what it is.

[Max Kellerman]

I think in all. In all those cases, they unlock the offense. No, what is it?

[Rich Paul]

It's not that they unlock the offense. That's part of it. Because T. Lou came up with hunting the guy and getting the mismatch, et cetera.

[Max Kellerman]

And Steve Kerr totally changed that offense and Mike Brown changed this offense.

[Rich Paul]

There's one word, accountability.

[Max Kellerman]

But Tibbs holds him accountable in a different way.

[Rich Paul]

Mike Brown, I've been around this man forever. Mike Brown gets the best out of the players. I don't know how he does it, but he does it. And I think that the difference between. They all got different coaching styles. T. Lew's thing was he keeps it so real with you that, come on, man, you can't fake it. Let's just call it what it is. He don't mind calling out whether it was LeBron or anybody else in the film session. And I'm sure Mike Brown is the same way. So now you get to the end of the year and we've went. They went through their ups and downs. They were calling for the man's job during.

[Max Kellerman]

And they were saying there's locker room

[Rich Paul]

problems, all these different things. It wasn't any of that. What it was, was it was taking these bad habits and getting you comfortable with conforming to play the style and to do all the things.

[Max Kellerman]

But in order to do that, to win games, in order to do that cat from the nail, and we like,

[Rich Paul]

his name should be DAT if you want it, dog. Anthony Towns. Yes. You missed that.

[Max Kellerman]

Absolutely. Yeah, but I'm your teammate. I thank you. I appreciate that. Throughout the history of the NBA, like whether it's Bill Walton or more recently, Jokic, or if it's, you know, whoever is that second point guard, the point sent the point big, you know, whether it's from the pinch post, nail, the low post, whatever it is that guy, when he's a high IQ player, it makes everything work. That is Karl Anthony Towns and the promise that he showed when he was first drafted. And it was like, Okafor is a center from the Previous era, Cat looked like he could defend out in space because he was more athletic. Didn't turn out that way exactly, but that was the thought. But he can and he could shoot and everything. He is justifying the draft pick. He is elevating his status in the current NBA and in history because you can't just entrust anyone to that job. But Max, okay, Pau Gasol did that for the Lakers with Kobe.

[Rich Paul]

But I talked to you about this during the earlier series and I said to you, your big man. When you look at the Bulls, say what you want about Dennis Rodman. Dennis Rodman had what, a high iq for sure. So did Will Perdue. So did Bill Winnington. So did Bill.

[Max Kellerman]

But they didn't play through those guys.

[Rich Paul]

No, but that's not the point. In order to run the triangle offense, your bigs have to have a high iq. Okay? Now let's go to the Lakers if you want to go to the Pistons, if you want to go to the spurs, if you want to go to the Rockets.

[Max Kellerman]

By the way, the problem with the Lakers right now, if hate. I hate to say it, I'm not like they need. If they, if they had, if they had a high IQ big. I'm not saying their bigs are not or stupid or anything, but I'm talking about a high IQ big. They would be a much.

[Rich Paul]

You don't think they send the same thing? By the way, when you talk about. If you look at the spurs right now, if you look at the Thunder right now, Hardenstein, Jalen Williams, Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Hated to see him go, of course, but.

[Rich Paul]

But what I'm saying is these guys. High iq.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

When you think about the Knicks, Jalen Brunson, high iq. Josh, just to say whoever went to Villanova, high iq. Jay Wright. You can't play for Jay Wright without a high IQ.

[Max Kellerman]

And Anobi.

[Rich Paul]

least not, not multiple years.

[Max Kellerman]

Mitch Robinson. Mitch Robinson just can't hit a free throw. But that dude is a. Is a stud under pressure.

[Rich Paul]

But Mitch Robinson brings something different. Yeah, right. So.

[Max Kellerman]

But he's also a smart player.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. Cat, high iq you. When you get. When you. You don't.

[Max Kellerman]

And by the way, Cat is also maybe the best shooting big ever. Like he's up there with like Dirk Navitz in terms of the way he's just taller.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you don't get to this point of the season without being. Having a high iq. Yeah, you just can't. You can't. The, the game of basketball isn't made like that. The game gods aren't blessing stupidity to win a Finals. It just does not work.

[Max Kellerman]

Kenny Atkinson staying with the Cavs Cavs fans, I feel your pain because the Giants extended Joe Shane and all of a sudden Jackson darts in the wrong place saying the wrong stuff, and then Abdul Carter has to say something like a domino effect. The Cavs. This really started, I think, with the Harden trade. You traded a good young point guard for an old guy who hasn't good been good in the playoffs throughout his career. He was again not good in the playoffs. Then you extend the coach who came out. Now I want to defend Atkinson. For one thing, when he said they're down, I made fun of him on Twitter. I said analytically.

[Rich Paul]

You tweet it.

[Max Kellerman]

The first tweet I sent in forever.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, I'm not going to call it that. They'll call it Twitter.

[Rich Paul]

Well, the bird is no longer there, but it's Twitter.

[Max Kellerman]

It's Twitter no matter what.

[Rich Paul]

Okay, the

[Max Kellerman]

and I mean, they're now 2 and 2 analytically or whatever it is. But when Kenny Atkinson says they're 2 and 1 analytically, when they were down.03 and everyone got mad at him. Rich I just want to just clarify that a little bit for people when he says they're down to they should be up to one analytically. Really what he's saying, and maybe he doesn't know it, is the analytics have failed to capture value. He is pointing out the fact, whether he knows it or not, that the analytics are imperfect. And for people who use that as just a blanket thing. Oh, that analytics bad. No. To be a slave to analytics is a bad thing because we will never have perfect knowledge. It's never going to get to the point. And I don't think we would want it to get to the point where analytics tell you everything you need to know and you just, you know, throw it in the computer and you're done. Because then what's the point in playing the games? We will never have perfect knowledge. The analytics will always fail to capture some value, and they should be used as an important tool in analysis, but not as the final say analytics is

[Rich Paul]

like condiments or like salt and pepper. It's not the meal like this. And this is why I don't understand how you rest on analytics.

[Max Kellerman]

It's it's more like it's a measuring tool. It's just not the only one. Like if you wanted to know the size of an object, you could take a tape measure, but you don't know the mass. You need a scale. You Know, like so. So analytics are one tool, along with scouts, along with all kinds of stuff.

[Rich Paul]

I'm not the biggest analytic guy. You know that already.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, but you. Look, if you ran a team, you'd have an analytics department.

[Rich Paul]

Of course you have to. But. But if I ran a team and I had an analytics department, yes, that's one thing. Give me the analytics, et cetera. But I'm making a decision based upon what I see, what I know, what I'm evaluating the analyst conversation.

[Max Kellerman]

What you. Yeah, yeah. Or if they. But. But if they contradict it, then you have to look at it again and go, But I also know the analytics

[Rich Paul]

is not going to tell me in, in its entirety how much somebody cares, how much somebody's willing to prep, how much their approach, how much somebody, you know, when, when the game is on the line, what's. What's going on in their mind coming out of a timeout, can they execute the way the coach drew the play up? Like, there's so many different things that analytics don't tell as it pertains to the athlete. Now, I'm not saying I'm ignoring analytics the entire way, but I can't. I can't base everything on analytics.

[Max Kellerman]

One way to do analytics, like in baseball, for example, and this, they do this in all sports now, is win shares. And what they did is they reverse engineered. They said, okay, this team has the same baseball. They win 90 games. Then they figure out, so this team, everyone on this team who played any at all for this team is worth 90 wins. Now let's figure out how much, what percentage of a win each one is worth. Right? They tried to reverse engineer it. If Kenny Atkinson, if he understood really what he was saying. What he was saying is that, like, the analytics didn't get the win shares right. You know, we missed it because the best analytics would have them down.03.

[Rich Paul]

You know what I would want to know how much did R.C. buford. Pat Riley, Danny Ainge, Red Auerbach. Red Auerbach. Now, Brad Stevens, Sam Presti, Greg Popovich. Yeah, no, I'm saying I said R.C. buford.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, yeah, right. Sure. It counts.

[Rich Paul]

Jerry West, Tex.

[Max Kellerman]

Someone like that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. Well, Jerry Krause.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay, Krause.

[Rich Paul]

In that case, I want to know how much. There's a common denominator to these guys that I'm naming.

[Max Kellerman]

Jerry West.

[Rich Paul]

I named Jerry West. Yes. Do you know what the common denominator is?

[Max Kellerman]

What?

[Rich Paul]

They all were great talent evaluators, and they won. Ginobili was drafted in the second round. Tony Parker was 29.

[Max Kellerman]

Jokic was in the second round.

[Rich Paul]

I'm just saying. I wonder what. I wonder what. How much they.

[Max Kellerman]

All right, well, evaluate the talent then. Rich.

[Rich Paul]

No, I want to ask him. I'm going to. I'm going to ask.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm asking you. You're a talent evaluator. That why I am like, this is why Clutch is doing well, because you're a good talent evaluator. What is one of the reasons. What do the Cavs do now? You traded what should have been a foundational piece for a guy you should have been able to get for spare parts. Now, do you keep hard? Like, if I'm the Cavs, I am moving on from James Harden. I got to move on from that. So now what tradable assets do you have to get better? Do you build around Donovan Mitchell and the two bigs? Do you move Allen or Mobley? Do you move Mitchell?

[Rich Paul]

Well, here's the thing. I can't say certain things that you can say, but here's what I will say. What the Cavs should do is not be satisfied with the season. And that will allow them to go into the off season with an open mind to understand that, yes, we were in the Eastern Conference finals, but we were so far away. And if you have that mentality going in, I think it allows you to have an open mind and strategize on what needs to be done next. That's the best way I can do it.

[Max Kellerman]

One thing I'm not doing, if I'm the Cavs, I would consider moving any of those guys. I don't think any of those guys are unmovable. I think Mobley, at this moment, it looks to me like his ceiling is not what I thought it was. Still a very good player.

[Rich Paul]

Allen's better player.

[Max Kellerman]

Glasses Allen's. In other words, I thought his ceiling was mvp. I don't see Mobley as an MVP in the future, but maybe I'm wrong. Allen's very good player. Donovan Mitchell's a very good player. None of those guys would be untouchable to me, but I would not want to break them into spare parts. If I move one of those guys, I want a single asset, at least that I consider at least as valuable as that player, whether that's a draft pick or another player who does exactly what I want from that.

[Rich Paul]

Well, a draft pick. What do you mean, a draft pick?

[Max Kellerman]

If I'm moving one of those guys, I want a high pick back.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but you're talking about moving guys that are proven players for A guy that might have potential. Yeah, I don't know about that.

[Max Kellerman]

Depends how good the pick is.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, no.

[Max Kellerman]

First of all, you're not going to have to pay the pick for a while. Secondly, if it's high up enough and you're a talent evaluator, you should be able to get some pretty good talent. Especially if you take the approach you do which is forget value, let me get my guy.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, I would definitely do that. But I don't know about. Listen, I like proven players. How about that? I mean draft picks are great, don't get me wrong. But it's a swing just like anything else. These guys were once swings. Now they've been in the league for a long time. You know they can play you name all star players.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me ask you something.

[Rich Paul]

All defensive team players you name.

[Max Kellerman]

Maxey is in the draft.

[Rich Paul]

Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

And you know you're going to be able to pick him up with whatever. But you have the seventh pick in the draft.

[Rich Paul]

I would have took him seven, no question about it.

[Max Kellerman]

So you mean to tell me there's not some dude like that in every single draft?

[Rich Paul]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not saying.

[Max Kellerman]

But you turn Donovan Mitchell, but that don't into that guy.

[Rich Paul]

But that don't make the pick that you're getting back that pick for that moment and that guy's. There's a lot of things that have to go right when. That's where the fantasy basketball comes at. I don't play fantasy basketball well, that's

[Max Kellerman]

the only thing I do play. We are getting down to it with the spurs in OKC and I've got you covered with my picks on FanDuel and all playoffs long. Fanduel has the best same game parlay pricing in the game. So if you're riding with your favorite players, make sure to head to FanDuel. And here it goes. San Antonio's -3 and a half at home in game six. They have to win that game to stay alive. What they win their last home game by 75.0 literally in the 20s. They. They're going to cover the three and a half. It's a must win game. They're going to cover the three and a half total points. I'm going to take the under on two, 18 and a half. If you look at the last game in San Antonio, they didn't even have a combined 190 points. And I think this is going to be a defensive game. I think the spurs especially are really going to get it out after it on defense, Keldon Johnson look this guy is usually really good off the bench. Had an off night shooting in game four on sorry game five on the road. I expect that to turn around at home. The over under is seven and a half points. I'm taking the over and Chet Holmgren I feel like finally showed up and found something in game five and where role players usually play better at home. I don't think Chet's a role player. All NBA right? What is third team so 13 and a half points. I like the over on Chet. The bet will be live in the FanDuel app. And don't forget to check out the great offers. They'll have all playoffs as well. FanDuel play your game. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Winter gets all the credit for being messy. But here's the thing. Summer might be worse. Sand from the beach, grass from the park, melted snacks, sunscreen everywhere, drinks spilling on long drives. It adds up. WeatherTech keeps you covered. A cargo liner, floor liners and seat protectors help handle whatever summer throws your way. They're tough, easy to clean and made to last. If summer means getting out and doing more, WeatherTech helps make sure your car isn't slacking on Defense. Visit weathertech.com today.

[Rich Paul]

This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. Spring is here, so celebrate it with fresh, juicy seasonal produce and some very tasty limited time flavors. New Whole Foods Market Peach Apricot Rose Italian soda. Perfect for a picnic or brunch. As is their trending Mango Yuzu Chantilly cake. But if you're on the go, new 365 Strawberry Pretzels make a great sweet snack. That sounds delicious. Get savings with yellow sale signs storewide and everyday low prices on 365 brand items. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring. Save at Whole Foods Market.

[Max Kellerman]

Ready for emails?

[Rich Paul]

Sure. Let's do it.

[Max Kellerman]

Michael from Lorton, Virginia with one question. If the Memphis Grizzlies are willing to part ways with Ja Morant, who should be the first team calling? Thank you for taking my question. Love the show. Go Army.

[Rich Paul]

Beat Navy Sacramento.

[Max Kellerman]

Cause he's a star and he can get some people to show up.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, and I think that, I think Scott Perry has an ability to really, I think he can connect with John Morant because I think a guy like John Morant, he needs to feel you're real.

[Max Kellerman]

When Ja was at his best and everyone said Iverson, who he reminded me of most, just aesthetically, when he was playing in the air was Michael Jordan. The way he floated in the Air. Ja had hops and did things in the air.

[Rich Paul]

Michael Jordan.

[Max Kellerman]

Yup. He had hops.

[Rich Paul]

That's a new one.

[Max Kellerman]

He had hops.

[Rich Paul]

What's in those glasses?

[Max Kellerman]

And he did things in the air. That reminded me. It was so spectacular.

[Rich Paul]

Do you have Lobos in those glasses?

[Max Kellerman]

Is he still as athletic as he was several years ago or is that gone forever?

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not gone. That's not gone. But I say Sacramento for all the reasons, because I think when you look at all the teams, most of them already have point. I mean, he could jock and play on any team. I'm not saying that they asked the question, so I'm saying for all things where it's at, I think that crowd up there, the excitement, you want them

[Max Kellerman]

on ball like that?

[Rich Paul]

I do, yeah. I do.

[Max Kellerman]

You think he makes good enough decisions with the ball?

[Rich Paul]

I do, yeah. No, I'm not saying that.

[Max Kellerman]

What Dean just said is. He said Sacramento is a graveyard for players. There is this sense that like once upon a time, someone would say the Knicks. There's a sense that the worst run teams are the best place, especially if they're small markets for once great players who have felt fallen out of favor or are somehow distressed assets to go because it's kind of like damning them both. He ain't that good anymore and this team would take a player like that.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. But I think there's ways you can turn places around. And we've seen an example of Sacramento when they were a good team that you. You cannot find a better crowd of fans than Sacramento when they're good. We've seen it.

[Max Kellerman]

How about Knicks fans?

[Rich Paul]

Them too.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm gonna say the Knicks fans are a better crowd than the Sacramento fans.

[Rich Paul]

Well, listen, I have nothing against the Knick fans because the Knick fans are. Are the. Nick, The Knick fans make you want to go to a Knick game, not even go to the game. The Knick fans make you want to hang out then outside of pin four, which is great. That's to me. And you have to tip your hat to the Knicks fans. You know why? Because normally in the big market, everyone is too cool for school. As it pertains to just really showing your fandom. You got guys like Chalamet and Ben Stiller and Tracy Morgan and Spike Lee and. What's my girl from?

[Max Kellerman]

Rosie. Rosie Perez?

[Rich Paul]

No, her too. But my. The. The. I love this lady from.

[Max Kellerman]

Is it a lot of ladies in the world? Rich, you got to narrow it down.

[Rich Paul]

No Law and order.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh. Oh, Hargitay.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, she's amazing. Like, I'm just saying, the, the crowd, the. There you can feel the authenticness, the, the authenticity there in the crowd. And these are high level celebrities, et cetera. And it's just fun to watch. Like, the NBA is great when the Knicks are good.

[Max Kellerman]

As a reformed Knicks fan, when I was a kid, I was obsessed with the Knicks, like everyone in New York, the way I feel about it now, if they win the whole thing in a way like Knicks fans should, you gotta enjoy the moment. But like one championship in 53 years, like, you gotta start with one. But the Knicks owe their fans about 18 championships.

[Rich Paul]

Yo, man.

[Max Kellerman]

Yes. If you root for the number one team in New York City. No, it's hardly in basketball, which is the most. Basketball is by far the most popular sport in New York City by far.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but Matt, if you.

[Max Kellerman]

And it's the only team of the three major sports that plays in Manhattan in the middle of the city, if you root for the New York franchise, the heritage franchise, you can't win the championship every year. You have a birthright to expect to win the championship more than any other team, and they have won it less than any other team. So fine, you got one. It's like you're a sucker for waiting 53 years to get one and then be thankful for the one.

[Rich Paul]

Now this is typical New York of you.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

This is why, you know, you, you, you really just, you, you can't do that. I mean, you just did it. You did just do it. You did just do it. But, but, but the fact of the

[Max Kellerman]

matter is, oh, they waited so long. Isn't it even better that you waited so long and now you know it? No, it's not better. It's worse, you know, waiting for that. I remember as a kid, I remember thinking this, where The Celtics had 13 and the Lakers had six and the Knicks had two. And I was like, okay, first the Knicks got to catch. But I forgot what I was like eight years old, nine years old. Okay, first the Knicks got to catch the Lakers. That's four chips. Then they got to get to catch the Celtics. Maybe by the time I'm 50, they could catch the Celtics. And in that time, the lakers have won 11 more chips. The Knicks have won on.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah, but here's. You can know, I went back and I watched a lot ofGames on YouTube over the last couple days. Older games. Yeah, Knicks. Older playoff games. This Knicks team would have beat any Knicks team in the last 30 years.

[Max Kellerman]

When you say every modern team in every Sport would be.

[Rich Paul]

It doesn't matter.

[Max Kellerman]

The old teams, of course.

[Rich Paul]

No, it doesn't matter what you say. Because when you get people saying oh what we would have did. No this Knicks team, would it beat the every team in the last 30 years?

[Max Kellerman]

Every. I'm saying every single.

[Rich Paul]

So be thankful.

[Max Kellerman]

Every single team in every sport would be from 30 years ago. That's not necessarily built on what those other damn lies.

[Rich Paul]

That's not necessarily true. Of course that's not necessarily true. No.

[Max Kellerman]

All the football teams today would destroy all the football teams. The guys are bigger, stronger, faster and they know all the stuff that they did, but they don't know all the stuff.

[Rich Paul]

That is not true.

[Max Kellerman]

But that's the why better is a ridiculous thing. It's greater it. Because you assume if those guys played today they'd shoot the three a lot better. Right. Because they would have to press it all.

[Rich Paul]

So you're telling me this Cavaliers team would have beat the 2016 Cavaliers team?

[Max Kellerman]

I didn't. I said 30 years ago.

[Rich Paul]

What about the 2007 Cavaliers team?

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, probably. They shoot it much better.

[Rich Paul]

You're damn lie.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. Anyway, where I was, I had such a great thought. It was just an earth shattering thoughts.

[Rich Paul]

You haven't had a great thought all night.

[Max Kellerman]

It was about to change everything and I lost it. Yeah, yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Something. No, enough.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, I said way back when we started this show that this was the best starting five the Knicks had in my lifetime. That's the best starting five.

[Rich Paul]

I gave you that because.

[Max Kellerman]

Because those Ewing teams, Patrick Ewing, they

[Rich Paul]

didn't have a three man.

[Max Kellerman]

Starks, they didn't really have. They didn't have another all star.

[Rich Paul]

No. But they didn't have a three.

[Max Kellerman]

Which, which team didn't have a three? Johnny. Johnny Newman was the three.

[Rich Paul]

No, was not.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he was. Johnny Newman was the three back then.

[Rich Paul]

No, he was not.

[Max Kellerman]

The team, the Mark Jackson Knicks. That's before.

[Rich Paul]

No, I'm talking about the Rick Patino Knicks.

[Max Kellerman]

Then it was the Pat Riley Knicks. The Pat Riley Knicks.

[Rich Paul]

That team did not have a three man.

[Max Kellerman]

And so Starks Mason was the three. Oakley. And then Mason turned into Larry Johnson. Mason was the 4. Marcus Camby, which was actually a good trade given where they were in their careers. And they brought in Sprewell and Houston.

[Rich Paul]

The reason why the Knicks didn't win in the 90s is because they didn't have a three man. I watched it, I studied it.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm like, which team are you talking about? It was Mason. Larry. It was, it was first. It was Mason Then it was Larry Johnson.

[Rich Paul]

Before that, before this, it was Johnny Newman, basically. No, it was not. Max. You use from New York. You don't know your own damn team.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm telling you. Go back and look at the bomb squad.

[Rich Paul]

It was Ewing, Charles Smith and Charles Oak.

[Max Kellerman]

Now you're going to. Now you're going to the Charles Smith day.

[Rich Paul]

You're not going to Charles me. I just said the 90s. Well, 1992, 93, when they were playing.

[Max Kellerman]

They weren't in the finals in those years because they didn't have a three. Charles Smith. Yeah, but Smith was like the three.

[Rich Paul]

He was not. He couldn't face up. What are you talking about?

[Max Kellerman]

But that's when he played with Oakley and Ewing. That's basically the three.

[Rich Paul]

No, that's not.

[Max Kellerman]

Matter of fact, they traded Mark Jackson for. They traded Mark Jackson for Charles.

[Rich Paul]

All I'm saying is the biggest piece for that, that specific team was they did not have a three.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm telling you, it was not an issue of a 3. It was an issue of neither at the 2 nor the 3 3. Did you ever have an all star scorer until they brought in Houston and Sprewell who were both really twos but played the 23 together. By then, Ewing was already in decline.

[Rich Paul]

I'm trying to.

[Max Kellerman]

Still didn't have the point card they needed team.

[Rich Paul]

They just did not have a three. I'm telling you, I'm sitting there watching it, right? I'm trying to think if they. If they would have took.

[Max Kellerman]

They didn't really have a two either. Rich Starks was really a six man. Ideally he was a six man. So it's not. And then when they find. That's what I'm saying.

[Rich Paul]

But they still.

[Max Kellerman]

When they finally got the 23 that you're talking about Sprewell and Houston. And you know what they did, Ewing was no longer as good. No, they didn't have a top point.

[Rich Paul]

They had dog, they had toughness, they had fight.

[Max Kellerman]

So just Van Gundy. They also had three really good coaches. They went to Chino, to Pat Riley, to Jeff Van Gundy.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, they did.

[Max Kellerman]

They were really good coaches. All right, let's get to the next question here. Ridiculous.

[Rich Paul]

Yeah. This guy don't know his own team.

[Max Kellerman]

Hey, Max and Rich love the show and the unique perspectives and analytical insight you both bring to the game. Is there a realistic move, by the way, Charles Smith with the injury, otherwise that would have been a good trade. The Mark Jackson for Charles. He also, before we move on, gets blamed unnecessarily.

[Rich Paul]

For the layup.

[Max Kellerman]

Let me tell you something.

[Rich Paul]

The mislay up.

[Max Kellerman]

I'm not blaming them on the tabloids. At the back page of the tabloids may have been to the front page the next day. You saw Scottie Pippen's hand here and Horace Grant's hand here and they didn't call it. Yes, but in the newspapers, your two forwards on the other team literally had a hand on either side of his arm and it was not called.

[Rich Paul]

Listen, I'm not Charles Smith. No one's getting on Charles Smith. All I'm saying is they did not have a three man. A little bit. That's all I'm saying.

[Max Kellerman]

Love the show and unique perspectives and analytical insight you both bring to the game. Is there a realistic move you think Portland could make this offseason that would elevate them into the top six in the loaded Western Conference? I'm realistic enough to know they probably aren't surpassing OKC or San Antonio long term. Thanks in advance if you happen to read an answer on the show. I truly appreciate all the work you both put in. Max's fellow member of the tribe, Ryan Rich. You know what that means, Member of the tribe.

[Rich Paul]

No, no, I know what that.

[Max Kellerman]

Rich is an honorary member. That's why he knows.

[Rich Paul]

I know what that means. I think. I think I told you before. Portland is about a piece and a half away.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

It depends on how they come back this summer.

[Max Kellerman]

Who's available.

[Rich Paul]

Obviously, Dame's coming back.

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, you know who might be available?

[Rich Paul]

No.

[Max Kellerman]

Kawhi Leonard. Kawhi Leonard could be available.

[Rich Paul]

He's already there. He was just injured.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah, he's got. But. But Kawhi Leonard would be a nice fit on that team. Rich, it's kind of what. It's kind of exactly what they need. I mean, the way that as an advisor, when you. When you. When you run a front office, you could hire me as a. I don't know.

[Rich Paul]

The way that Avia is playing, I don't know if I want to. I don't know if I want to mess with that. And I'm a big Kawhi fan. I don't know if I want to mess with that.

[Max Kellerman]

Down the best player on the other side and you don't. And. And Kawhi doesn't need to take over the game on ball and stuff, but you just gotta.

[Rich Paul]

But you have to move somebody and that means you have to move Denny and I don't know if you want to do that.

[Max Kellerman]

You don't have to move.

[Rich Paul]

You don't have to. Yes, you do. Why? Well, you don't have to move Denny, but I'm saying you're just gonna be

[Max Kellerman]

able to sign them. They're gonna void us down, probably.

[Rich Paul]

Are you crazy? Where do you come up with this stuff?

[Max Kellerman]

They're going to have to punish the Clippers.

[Rich Paul]

You think they about to void this man's. What is wrong with you?

[Max Kellerman]

Oh, they might. They might make him a free agent. Why not? They got to punish the Clippers.

[Rich Paul]

So now I don't even think there's Lobos in those glasses. I think there's.

[Max Kellerman]

So how are they going to punish the Clippers?

[Rich Paul]

I'm not talking about how somebody's going to get. That's not my.

[Max Kellerman]

I would say that Kawhi could. The idea that they could. That they could cut Kawhi loose because. Because if they find or have. Or have enough, like, reasonable suspicion or

[Rich Paul]

enough evidence, you know, there's a players association.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Come on, Max. That type of stuff is made for tv.

[Max Kellerman]

You're saying I want Iguodala.

[Rich Paul]

This is a Netflix show. We talk about real things here.

[Max Kellerman]

All right.

[Rich Paul]

But to answer this question, I don't know specifically one person. I will say they are probably. If I had to take a guess.

[Max Kellerman]

Ooh, I got another one.

[Rich Paul]

Four man. A four man or five. Not a wing addition there. I don't think they need the wing spot, man. I think you got. I mean, you got sharp. You got Denny, you know, you got.

[Max Kellerman]

Is Denny a wing?

[Rich Paul]

Denny's a wing. Yeah. I like the kid that got. I can't pronounce his last name, but tough on defensive end.

[Max Kellerman]

So you think they need a five.

[Rich Paul]

Four. Five spot is upgrade. Four or five spots. Upgrade. And I probably. Would. Probably would try to add another.

[Max Kellerman]

A Draymond Green.

[Rich Paul]

Some more shooting. I don't have the name Max, but.

[Max Kellerman]

Okay. You want to hear a voicemail?

[Rich Paul]

Sure.

[Max Kellerman]

Let's hit this.

[Rich Paul]

Hey, guys.

[Max Kellerman]

So I was listening to the most

[Rich Paul]

recent episode, and I heard Max say

[Max Kellerman]

that the NBA has, I think he

[Rich Paul]

said, the most meaningless regular season, but

[Max Kellerman]

they have the most exciting postseason.

[Rich Paul]

That kind of caught my attention because I actually feel like baseball can hold a candle to that. I think they have probably the best

[Max Kellerman]

postseason out of all the major schools.

[Rich Paul]

I agree with him. And it's kind of ironic because they

[Max Kellerman]

have a 162 game season. So that kind of leads it to

[Rich Paul]

my question, which is if the NBA

[Max Kellerman]

seems to be getting most of their money from.

[Rich Paul]

Or I should say owners are getting most of their money from media deals,

[Max Kellerman]

they're getting billions of dollars from Amazon, NBC.

[Rich Paul]

I guess my question is, would it really hurt to cut 10, 12 regular season games? Yes. Yes. First of all, the owners does not get most of their money from the TV deal. They get most of their money from the businesses that they built that provided the money to buy the team in the first place.

[Max Kellerman]

Basketball.

[Rich Paul]

Oh, well, he said that could. For the listeners, that could be very misleading because these high. These guys have unbelievable portfolios that allow them to have the, the net worth they have and could purchase these teams. Not just one team, multiple teams.

[Max Kellerman]

Know how many subprime loans these guys had to.

[Rich Paul]

I wouldn't.

[Max Kellerman]

You know how many houses had to be foreclosed on for these guys to get these billions of dollars?

[Rich Paul]

That's fine, but do you know how many multiples of value that is now have in place when you paid $250 million for a team and it's now worth 9 billion?

[Max Kellerman]

No question. Who cares how many people are homeless now after all the, all the foreclosures?

[Rich Paul]

Now wait a minute.

[Max Kellerman]

What does that mean?

[Rich Paul]

But I agree with. I don't watch baseball into the postseason. I love the baseball postseason. Love it.

[Max Kellerman]

Here's the thing about baseball. He's right. If it's your team in the postseason, I do like if the. And here's the thing about the regular season. Baseball's a way too long regular season. But you could throw on a baseball game like wallpaper. So I like all those regular season games because I could just put it on in the house. I'm watching the Yankees. I don't have to pay attention to everything. You know, I can live my life and they're the Yankees on. Any room I walk into, they're the Yankees on. I'm good. When they're in the playoffs. Baseball, postseason. Yankees are in. I'm so happy.

[Rich Paul]

Me too.

[Max Kellerman]

If the Yankees aren't in the playoffs, you don't care. Never happens. I couldn't care less. I don't care about. Baseball is such a local sport. Basketball and football, you're still watching the postseason and you care about their national.

[Rich Paul]

So you didn't watch the Dodgers and, and the Blue Jays last year?

[Max Kellerman]

I did watch that.

[Rich Paul]

Yes, you did. I know you did. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

So you just lied to the viewers.

[Max Kellerman]

Well, I watched that series. First of all. I'm here. I'm here in la. I could see Dodger Stadium from my house, you know. So like, I don't know. It's still.

[Rich Paul]

No, but it was an exciting season. Yeah, I'm the same Way with the Yankees, if my guardians isn't in the game. Or the Yankees.

[Max Kellerman]

Right.

[Rich Paul]

But now it's. Or the Dodgers, too, for me.

[Max Kellerman]

Now I see what you mean.

[Rich Paul]

And. Or the Red Sox, because there's.

[Max Kellerman]

If the Padres are playing all over the place. If the Padres are playing the White Sox in the World Series, let me know who wins.

[Rich Paul]

Fair point.

[Max Kellerman]

Right. And by the way, it's. It's not exactly true because I work in sports, so I like to know what's going on. Anyway, my point is I'm not. I'm not. It's not. It's a very different. So of course I'm going to watch the World Series, but it's a very different feeling for me.

[Rich Paul]

Yes. That's. As a fan. Now I have to watch the baseball. If, if we have a client in the World Series, I'm definitely going to watch it.

[Max Kellerman]

So, you know, but as a fan, Chiefs can play, you know, Patriots or

[Rich Paul]

in the Super Bowl. Yes.

[Max Kellerman]

Like I'm, of course, in the AFC championship or one of the championship games,

[Rich Paul]

or even an early Pittsburgh or a Monday night game.

[Max Kellerman]

If the Steelers are playing the Ravens in the playoffs, I'm there.

[Rich Paul]

Speaking of that.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Football's coming up, Max.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah.

[Rich Paul]

Who are we going to get to join us?

[Max Kellerman]

That's a good question.

[Rich Paul]

For the whole season. We need.

[Max Kellerman]

We need.

[Rich Paul]

We need an NFL player or coach. Yeah. To join us.

[Max Kellerman]

Correct.

[Rich Paul]

For the entire.

[Max Kellerman]

College football, too.

[Rich Paul]

And college football.

[Max Kellerman]

Yeah. We need to think about that. I have some ideas.

[Rich Paul]

You know, send some voicemails to give us some ideas, some names of some guys who should.

[Max Kellerman]

Or join.

[Rich Paul]

You an actual guy or you're an actual guy. Hey, we would love to have you. Come on.

[Max Kellerman]

You got one of our numbers.

[Rich Paul]

My number's been the same for 25 years.

[Max Kellerman]

Everyone has my number. All right. I don't.

[Rich Paul]

All right, Max, I think.

[Max Kellerman]

I think that's enough. I think that's enough. 21 and over in select states for Kansas, an affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over and present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatincut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org In Maryland, Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-78-HOPE NY or text HOPE NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-7707.