Podcast Summary

Podcast: Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
Episode: What It Takes to Make a Trade
Date: January 7, 2026
Host: The Ringer
Guests: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Overview

This episode delves deeply into the art and psychology behind making a trade in professional sports, focusing most specifically on NBA scenarios. Max Kellerman (sports media veteran) and Rich Paul (NBA super-agent) blend their distinct perspectives—media and agent/insider—to break down the complexities of modern sports trades, player value, team-building philosophies, and the shifting landscape of sports coverage. They illuminate how narratives are shaped around stars like LeBron James, Trae Young, Anthony Davis, and Luka Doncic, and discuss the impact of athlete-driven content, player psychology, and the broader culture of comparison in sports.

Main Discussion Topics & Insights

1. Sports Media’s Negative Focus & Narrative Building

• Why Stars Receive So Much Critique
  • Max questions why athletes like LeBron or Durant feel 50/50 coverage when 99% of their career is positive.

    "Why does it feel like it's 50, 50 positive, negative coverage of me when it should be 99:1?" – Max [01:01]

  • Rich: It's about what sells. Negativity draws attention, especially on social media.

    "People have to pay bills. Bills have to get paid... It's just harder for people to be positive towards anything. That's not what sells." – Rich [01:39]

  • Discussion of DC vs. Marvel storytelling, using comic book characters as metaphors for public perception of athletes and negativity making for more compelling stories.

2. Peer Recognition, Insecurities, and Comparisons in Sports

• Athlete Peers Struggle to Compliment Each Other
  • Rich notes that comparison is "the thief of joy," pointing to athlete egos and competitiveness as reasons praise is rare. Larry Bird's respect for Jordan is cited as a rare example of security in greatness.

    "Comparisons are the thief of joy. That's why we see these dumb takes..." – Rich [06:07]

3. John Harbaugh and the Search for the Right Coaching Fit

(Starts at [08:39])

• Debate: Giants vs. Browns for Harbaugh
  • Rich wants Harbaugh for the Browns, sees a path to transform the franchise.

    "He is the perfect fit for my Cleveland Browns." – Rich [09:13]

  • Max discusses the pitfalls the Giants face but wants Harbaugh for their consistent competitiveness.
  • Both agree Harbaugh (and Tomlin) are rare culture-builders—any team hiring them competes immediately.
  • Discussion of franchise fit for coaches, quarterback choices, and organizational alignments.
  • Notable back-and-forth about negotiating with Harbaugh and appealing to him with partial ownership (suggested by Rich [13:09]).

4. Behind the Curtain: The Trae Young Trade Example

(Main segment begins [18:44])

• Rich Paul’s “Put You on Game” Segment:

  • The mental state of the player is critical; hearing your name in trade rumors is always a challenge.

    "Our game is 90% minimum, no player likes to hear their name in the public in a negative light." – Rich [20:28]

  • Managing (not merely controlling) the narrative for the player’s value, career, and public perception.
  • Max asks if narrative-management gets blowback or is misunderstood; Rich responds it’s about balance and representation, not just positive spin. [22:25]
  • Rich breaks down the mechanics for both sides:
    • For the Selling Team (GM 1): Asset management with salary cap, maintaining value, often getting an expiring contract and a draft asset.
    • For the Buying Team (GM 2):
      • Hope to acquire value without overpaying (rarely “pennies on the dollar” for star guards but less than when player’s rep was at peak).
      • Must assess if the incoming player fits their timeline and culture.
  • Trade market for "distressed assets" (a term Rich strongly dislikes): Even talented stars like Trae Young have limited buyers when narrative and timing shift.
  • Example of player adaptation: de’Aaron Fox’s move and the importance of role acceptance and foresight for player and agent.

• Notable Quotes:

  • "There's the basketball side and the business side of an organization." – Rich [39:22]
  • "The mental piece for the player matters more than anything because you still gotta go in that locker room... be cordial with your teammates. It's not an easy thing to do." – Rich [40:44]

5. Anthony Davis and “Distressed Assets” in Star Trades

• Discussing AD’s Value and the Risk Calculation
  • Max: AD, while elite when healthy, is viewed as a trade risk because of injuries—compared to the Luka-AD trade as an example of a downward trajectory in perceived trade value.
  • Rich refuses to use “distressed” for players out of respect.
  • Young assets with smaller deals (e.g., Cooper Flagg) are now incredibly valuable for building contenders due to salary/production disparities.

6. LeBron James, Luka Doncic, and the Legacy/Leadership Influence

(Main segment resumes [47:53], deep dive at [51:02], and leadership culture at [62:11])

• LeBron’s Evolution & Role

  • LeBron, at 41, posts a 38–8–8 game. Rich discusses his capacity to be the “Karl Malone” (pick and pop, pick and roll) to Luka’s “Stockton.”
  • Max suggests LeBron’s leadership and adaptability extends his career, especially if he dials back workload.

• Championship Pedigree and Cultural Transmission

  • Rich on LeBron:

    “When the game has given you so much, I think it's so important for you to spend these years creating moments and memories for young players… Give them everything you have, because you don't know how much longer you're going to be in those locker rooms." [52:41]

  • Both discuss how invaluable it is for young stars like Luka to share a locker room with LeBron for habits, discipline, preparation, and professionalism.
  • Max: LeBron’s championship habits could be the missing “secret sauce” for Luka to break through.
  • Rich underscores that you must never “throw away a year” in the NBA era of strengthened numbers—even seasons where a ring is unlikely can build future champions.
  • Max: “LeBron has his championships...[but] Luka doesn't. He has the talent, but he hasn't won a championship yet.” [62:11]
  • Culture building as a strategic asset, with the Spurs providing an example (retired stars have lockers in the facility).

• Luka Doncic’s Defensive Issues and Harden Comparison:

  • Max dubs Luka’s lack of defense “James Harden 2.0”, cautioning that offensive brilliance alone rarely gets you to a ring.
  • Rich rebuts that Harden never had a LeBron or a comparable star beside him; points out team construction plays a role.

7. Smaller Guards and Championship Probability

(Starts at [75:46])

• The Challenge for Teams Built Around Smaller Guards
  • Rich: The NBA is unkind to teams whose best player is an undersized guard; Isaiah Thomas and Steph Curry are rare exceptions.
  • Max: “If your best player is not at least 6:3, you could have a problem…”

8. Career Longevity Advice for Players Like Trae Young

(Wrap-up message at [79:11])

• Agent’s Advice for Distressed/Transitional Stars
  • Rich closes with advice for Trae Young and similar stars: ignore distractions, focus on professionalism and adaptability, and treat “career earnings” as the only true gauge of NBA success.

    "Whatever's going to happen is going to happen. You know, you have value on, you know, what you were born to do. Play basketball. Can't be distracted by things. But more importantly, when you're in this position, it's called career earnings for a reason. Add it all up at the end." – Rich [79:17]

Memorable Quotes & Banter

• On peer insecurity:
  "[Larry Bird] looks at MJ and goes, that's better than me. What can I tell you? He's better than I am. Because he felt secure enough in himself to see it and recognize it." – Max [07:12]
• On negativity in media:
  “You know how hard it is for somebody to walk up to you and say, max, that is a very nice sweater you have on today.” – Rich [01:44]
• On team-building through trades:
  "There's the basketball side and the business side of an organization." – Rich [39:22]
• On accepting new roles:
  “Whatever's going to happen is going to happen... you were born to do [this]. Play basketball. Can't be distracted by things.” – Rich [79:17]

Key Timestamps

• 01:01 – Discussion: Why negative coverage outweighs positive for stars.
• 06:07–07:24 – Rich on why peer praise is hard, Larry Bird’s attitude.
• 08:39–16:21 – Max and Rich debate John Harbaugh’s ideal new team; franchise culture.
• 18:44–47:18 – Deep dive, “Put You on Game” segment: Actual process of trading stars; Trae Young situation breakdown.
• 51:02–54:35 – LeBron’s leadership, adapting to age, role alongside Luka.
• 62:11–68:03 – How LeBron can help Luka mature & importance of mentorship for young superstars.
• 75:46–78:32 – Discussion of why undersized star guards rarely are centerpieces for champion teams.
• 79:11–80:09 – Rich’s closing advice to players in transition—career earnings, adaptability.

Closing Thoughts

Overall tone: Engaged, candid, and informed, with a playful and at times combative rapport—particularly when it comes to their personal teams, trade rumors, and Max’s media-style hypotheticals.

The episode shines by bringing together Rich Paul’s rarely-heard inside perspective with Max Kellerman’s sharp, critical media voice. It demystifies behind-the-scenes negotiation, framing of player narratives, the psychological burden of trades, and the ongoing evolution of NBA team-building. The discussion is a must-listen for sports fans eager to understand the machinery, strategy, and personality dynamics that drive high-stakes transactions in professional sports.