What It Takes to Make a Trade

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Game Over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul
Episode: What It Takes to Make a Trade
Date: January 7, 2026
Host: The Ringer
Guests: Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

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Overview

This episode delves deeply into the art and psychology behind making a trade in professional sports, focusing most specifically on NBA scenarios. Max Kellerman (sports media veteran) and Rich Paul (NBA super-agent) blend their distinct perspectives—media and agent/insider—to break down the complexities of modern sports trades, player value, team-building philosophies, and the shifting landscape of sports coverage. They illuminate how narratives are shaped around stars like LeBron James, Trae Young, Anthony Davis, and Luka Doncic, and discuss the impact of athlete-driven content, player psychology, and the broader culture of comparison in sports.

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Main Discussion Topics & Insights

1. Sports Media’s Negative Focus & Narrative Building

• Why Stars Receive So Much Critique
  • Max questions why athletes like LeBron or Durant feel 50/50 coverage when 99% of their career is positive.

    "Why does it feel like it's 50, 50 positive, negative coverage of me when it should be 99:1?" – Max [01:01]

  • Rich: It's about what sells. Negativity draws attention, especially on social media.

    "People have to pay bills. Bills have to get paid... It's just harder for people to be positive towards anything. That's not what sells." – Rich [01:39]

  • Discussion of DC vs. Marvel storytelling, using comic book characters as metaphors for public perception of athletes and negativity making for more compelling stories.

2. Peer Recognition, Insecurities, and Comparisons in Sports

• Athlete Peers Struggle to Compliment Each Other
  • Rich notes that comparison is "the thief of joy," pointing to athlete egos and competitiveness as reasons praise is rare. Larry Bird's respect for Jordan is cited as a rare example of security in greatness.

    "Comparisons are the thief of joy. That's why we see these dumb takes..." – Rich [06:07]

3. John Harbaugh and the Search for the Right Coaching Fit

(Starts at [08:39])

• Debate: Giants vs. Browns for Harbaugh
  • Rich wants Harbaugh for the Browns, sees a path to transform the franchise.

    "He is the perfect fit for my Cleveland Browns." – Rich [09:13]

  • Max discusses the pitfalls the Giants face but wants Harbaugh for their consistent competitiveness.
  • Both agree Harbaugh (and Tomlin) are rare culture-builders—any team hiring them competes immediately.
  • Discussion of franchise fit for coaches, quarterback choices, and organizational alignments.
  • Notable back-and-forth about negotiating with Harbaugh and appealing to him with partial ownership (suggested by Rich [13:09]).

4. Behind the Curtain: The Trae Young Trade Example

(Main segment begins [18:44])

• Rich Paul’s “Put You on Game” Segment:

  • The mental state of the player is critical; hearing your name in trade rumors is always a challenge.

    "Our game is 90% minimum, no player likes to hear their name in the public in a negative light." – Rich [20:28]

  • Managing (not merely controlling) the narrative for the player’s value, career, and public perception.
  • Max asks if narrative-management gets blowback or is misunderstood; Rich responds it’s about balance and representation, not just positive spin. [22:25]
  • Rich breaks down the mechanics for both sides:
    • For the Selling Team (GM 1): Asset management with salary cap, maintaining value, often getting an expiring contract and a draft asset.
    • For the Buying Team (GM 2):
      • Hope to acquire value without overpaying (rarely “pennies on the dollar” for star guards but less than when player’s rep was at peak).
      • Must assess if the incoming player fits their timeline and culture.
  • Trade market for "distressed assets" (a term Rich strongly dislikes): Even talented stars like Trae Young have limited buyers when narrative and timing shift.
  • Example of player adaptation: de’Aaron Fox’s move and the importance of role acceptance and foresight for player and agent.

• Notable Quotes:

  • "There's the basketball side and the business side of an organization." – Rich [39:22]
  • "The mental piece for the player matters more than anything because you still gotta go in that locker room... be cordial with your teammates. It's not an easy thing to do." – Rich [40:44]

5. Anthony Davis and “Distressed Assets” in Star Trades

• Discussing AD’s Value and the Risk Calculation
  • Max: AD, while elite when healthy, is viewed as a trade risk because of injuries—compared to the Luka-AD trade as an example of a downward trajectory in perceived trade value.
  • Rich refuses to use “distressed” for players out of respect.
  • Young assets with smaller deals (e.g., Cooper Flagg) are now incredibly valuable for building contenders due to salary/production disparities.

6. LeBron James, Luka Doncic, and the Legacy/Leadership Influence

(Main segment resumes [47:53], deep dive at [51:02], and leadership culture at [62:11])

• LeBron’s Evolution & Role

  • LeBron, at 41, posts a 38–8–8 game. Rich discusses his capacity to be the “Karl Malone” (pick and pop, pick and roll) to Luka’s “Stockton.”
  • Max suggests LeBron’s leadership and adaptability extends his career, especially if he dials back workload.

• Championship Pedigree and Cultural Transmission

  • Rich on LeBron:

    “When the game has given you so much, I think it's so important for you to spend these years creating moments and memories for young players… Give them everything you have, because you don't know how much longer you're going to be in those locker rooms." [52:41]

  • Both discuss how invaluable it is for young stars like Luka to share a locker room with LeBron for habits, discipline, preparation, and professionalism.
  • Max: LeBron’s championship habits could be the missing “secret sauce” for Luka to break through.
  • Rich underscores that you must never “throw away a year” in the NBA era of strengthened numbers—even seasons where a ring is unlikely can build future champions.
  • Max: “LeBron has his championships...[but] Luka doesn't. He has the talent, but he hasn't won a championship yet.” [62:11]
  • Culture building as a strategic asset, with the Spurs providing an example (retired stars have lockers in the facility).

• Luka Doncic’s Defensive Issues and Harden Comparison:

  • Max dubs Luka’s lack of defense “James Harden 2.0”, cautioning that offensive brilliance alone rarely gets you to a ring.
  • Rich rebuts that Harden never had a LeBron or a comparable star beside him; points out team construction plays a role.

7. Smaller Guards and Championship Probability

(Starts at [75:46])

• The Challenge for Teams Built Around Smaller Guards
  • Rich: The NBA is unkind to teams whose best player is an undersized guard; Isaiah Thomas and Steph Curry are rare exceptions.
  • Max: “If your best player is not at least 6:3, you could have a problem…”

8. Career Longevity Advice for Players Like Trae Young

(Wrap-up message at [79:11])

• Agent’s Advice for Distressed/Transitional Stars
  • Rich closes with advice for Trae Young and similar stars: ignore distractions, focus on professionalism and adaptability, and treat “career earnings” as the only true gauge of NBA success.

    "Whatever's going to happen is going to happen. You know, you have value on, you know, what you were born to do. Play basketball. Can't be distracted by things. But more importantly, when you're in this position, it's called career earnings for a reason. Add it all up at the end." – Rich [79:17]

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Memorable Quotes & Banter

• On peer insecurity:
  "[Larry Bird] looks at MJ and goes, that's better than me. What can I tell you? He's better than I am. Because he felt secure enough in himself to see it and recognize it." – Max [07:12]
• On negativity in media:
  “You know how hard it is for somebody to walk up to you and say, max, that is a very nice sweater you have on today.” – Rich [01:44]
• On team-building through trades:
  "There's the basketball side and the business side of an organization." – Rich [39:22]
• On accepting new roles:
  “Whatever's going to happen is going to happen... you were born to do [this]. Play basketball. Can't be distracted by things.” – Rich [79:17]

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Key Timestamps

• 01:01 – Discussion: Why negative coverage outweighs positive for stars.
• 06:07–07:24 – Rich on why peer praise is hard, Larry Bird’s attitude.
• 08:39–16:21 – Max and Rich debate John Harbaugh’s ideal new team; franchise culture.
• 18:44–47:18 – Deep dive, “Put You on Game” segment: Actual process of trading stars; Trae Young situation breakdown.
• 51:02–54:35 – LeBron’s leadership, adapting to age, role alongside Luka.
• 62:11–68:03 – How LeBron can help Luka mature & importance of mentorship for young superstars.
• 75:46–78:32 – Discussion of why undersized star guards rarely are centerpieces for champion teams.
• 79:11–80:09 – Rich’s closing advice to players in transition—career earnings, adaptability.

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Closing Thoughts

Overall tone: Engaged, candid, and informed, with a playful and at times combative rapport—particularly when it comes to their personal teams, trade rumors, and Max’s media-style hypotheticals.

The episode shines by bringing together Rich Paul’s rarely-heard inside perspective with Max Kellerman’s sharp, critical media voice. It demystifies behind-the-scenes negotiation, framing of player narratives, the psychological burden of trades, and the ongoing evolution of NBA team-building. The discussion is a must-listen for sports fans eager to understand the machinery, strategy, and personality dynamics that drive high-stakes transactions in professional sports.

Transcript

[A]

Max Kellerman, Rich Paul. Game over.

[B]

Please subscribe.

[A]

Please subscribe.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Stop begging people to subscribe.

[B]

I'm not begging.

[A]

I'm asking if they like the show.

[B]

There's a difference between begging and asking nicely.

[A]

I probably shouldn't argue with you about how to conduct business, actually. But you know what I was thinking? You know what I was thinking listening to LeBron James last night?

[B]

Why are we talking about LeBron James?

[A]

Hardball38.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. We're not doing this. We're not doing this. We got big news.

[A]

Yeah, but. Yes, but we're in the cold open still, Rich. We haven't even started the show yet. We're going to start with Harbaugh, of course.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm just saying I don't want it.

[B]

I mean, so he goes.

[A]

So LeBron drops. Goes 38 and eight in a win. He's 41 years old. He comes out after the game, says a thing that's completely reasonable, right? Hey, TBD. I'm 41. We're gonna get into that in the show. But you know what occurred to me?

[B]

What?

[A]

I'm gonna have to bring up something in the show that's not even my opinion, but reflects a negative reaction to what LeBron said. And if you're LeBron James or Kevin Durant or any number of incredible and great athletes who 99% of what they do is positive in their life, in their career, and 1% is like. Is worthy of real critique, they have to be sitting there going, why does it feel like it's 50, 50 positive, negative coverage of me when it should be 99:1?

[B]

Because people have to pay bills. Bills have to get paid.

[A]

You mean. It's more interesting this way.

[B]

You know how hard it is for somebody to walk up to you and say, max, that is a very nice sweater you have on today.

[A]

Well, thank you, Rich. It's a nice jacket.

[B]

Thank you. How often do you get that?

[A]

I mean, you mean it's harder for people to show love than.

[B]

It's just harder for people to be positive towards anything. That's not what sells. That's not what people. Even when you look on. If you look at comments on social media, most of them are negative in a lot of ways because that's what fuels those people. Like, you have to. And it's okay.

[A]

I think that's right about social media. I think in more traditional media, it's a little different. I think that we explain the world through storytelling, and stories have to have characters and, like, so, you know, the difference between, like, DC comic books and Marvel comic books, like DC is Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Marvel's all the interesting comic book characters. Right.

[B]

Well, I would look at it different. I would say D.C. was more of the foundational comic characters.

[A]

And then I once spoke to someone at Marvel about this, and they're like, D.C. is your mom, your dad. And the identity of the superhero is really who they are. That's really Superman. That's who he is. And he dresses up as Clark Kent, whereas in Marvel, it's you. So the real person is Peter Parker. He dresses up as Spider Man.

[B]

But you also have to look at the landscape today. If you look at today's landscape and you. And by the way, you've been in this space how many years?

[A]

27. Professionally.

[B]

Okay. And you've seen it grow over time.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You've seen it change, you've seen it grow, you've seen it evolve. Today you have more voices than ever before.

[A]

Yes. Social media, everyone has a platform.

[B]

But also there's more. And there's more athletes on these plat. When I was growing up, there was the great Tom Jackson.

[A]

Right. Chris Brown. Now every athlete has.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

But the point I was making about DC and Marvel is that Marvel was more interesting, not only because the kid reading the comic book is identifying with a superhero. That's not something I aspire to be. That's really me. Okay. But because as a kid, as a less mature character, they felt more real because they had flaws. They were more interesting because they had flaws. And storytelling is not as interesting if the hero is perfect and the only weakness is this one. Kryptonite. Right. Is the Achilles heel much more interesting when there's humanity is there. There are plenty of weaknesses and flaws, even if they're hidden from people sometimes. And that extends to sports storytelling. It's less Interesting if LeBron's always great and da, da, da, da. And more interesting and easier to sell if he has flaws and weaknesses.

[B]

But here's the thing. But this is. There's nothing wrong with that. It's nothing. No one's perfect. That's just.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah, right. It's nothing wrong with criticizing someone when the action causes for the criticism. Where I think being in my seat now I'm on the other side for this hour and 10, 20, 30, however long we go. Sometimes is when you start to cross the line and you see a lot of different agendas. And I know it because I was there. I was actually there when it doesn't feel good to be in A club with your people and everybody hanging and kicking it, and you're the center of attention. And then one guy walks in and everybody in your section wants a picture with that one person.

[A]

And that's LeBron, you're saying. So there's.

[B]

It has been him. It's been. It's been, you know, the top guys. It takes a special kind of person to be okay with that and to embrace that. And so now when you put a microphone in front of that person.

[A]

Oh, you're saying the proliferation of athletes with pods adds to the negative voices.

[B]

Of course it does. Because peers don't normally show their peers.

[A]

Get this guy out of here.

[B]

Now. We need a fly swatter.

[A]

We do little. I don't care if it's a fly.

[B]

That wasn't even a Flyers. It's very difficult for your peers to embrace you because.

[A]

Because they're competitive.

[B]

But not only that, but they were. But they always were comparing. That's why I always say comparisons are the thief of joy. That's why we see these dumb takes on Jayson Tatum. If he comes back to the Celtics, he's going to hurt the team. What?

[A]

Not hurt the team, but call me the joy thief, because I absolutely. When you are like, don't do that. Tatum and Brown, they're both great. That's what's interesting. But who's better? It's a hard question to answer and it's a little uncomfortable, but that's what makes it fun.

[B]

But here's the thing. This is the problem we have. I was there, right? These things matter to people. They haven't corrected these things yet. The peers do not give you. Very few. It takes a special kind of person to be able to compliment you, by the way. That's why being in the same space.

[A]

When MJ came into the league, who was the first guy to be like, he's the best. You know who it was? Larry Bird, who was the reigning mvp, who was winning championships, who's the best.

[B]

Player ever, who wasn't his peer and.

[A]

But Larry Bird just looks at this dude because he's secure. Everyone else. Larry Bird knows who he is. He looks at MJ and goes, that's better than me. What can I tell you? He's better than I am. Because he felt secure enough in himself to see it and recognize it.

[B]

He was a champion.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

He had beat MJ already.

[A]

Right?

[B]

All of that. All right, listen, I'm just saying it's a very hard thing for people to just a simple things to perspective. That's a nice sweater.

[A]

Nice jacket.

[B]

It's hard.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

It's hard like the hat, too, when you add the other elements to it. I'm not surprised by anything that happens today.

[A]

You ready to do the show?

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Game over is presented by fanduel. Fanduel's got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you can build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL playoffs all month long. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com gameover to get started. Twitter 21 and over and present in select states or 18 and over in present in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChatInElectric. John Harbaugh yes, now you and I are both fans, respectively, of, well, we're.

[B]

About to be enemies.

[A]

Bad franchises right now.

[B]

I'm not using the word bad as it pertains to my franchises.

[A]

Browns suck and the Giants suck.

[B]

We're trending in the right direction. I'm positive for 20, 26. I don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

Browns every year. I think the Giants are trending in the right direction and they suck the next year again. Now this is why Harbaugh is so interesting. Like, you want Harbaugh as a coach of the Browns, right? Duh.

[B]

Damn right.

[A]

And I want him as the coach of the Giants. And every single fan of every franchise that needs a coach and some that have a decent coach are going to want John Harbaugh.

[B]

But I don't just want John Harbaugh as a coach. He is the perfect fit for my Cleveland Browns. He is the perfect fit next to Andrew Berry and owners Jim Haslam. And because that just all three of those guys are compatible, it makes perfect sense. This is a big opportunity for us and our our culture moving forward. We have some great pieces. This could be the turnaround moment. And you know what? The Ravens took our team in 99 and they won a Super Bowl. This is an opportunity for us to get the coach that was once there, build a team and go and win a Super Bowl.

[A]

I was thinking about your Browns. Let's talk about the Giants. Here's the thing. We know they're not compatible because Stefanski was available. It's like, oh, he's this great offensive coach. The thing about Harbaugh and we'll see what happens with Tomlin is Tomlin literally has never had a losing season as a head coach, no matter what the circumstances. But Harbaugh, even in a down year, is competitive all through the season. Harbaugh builds a franchise. Builds. Everyone's calling it a program fine. That competes all the time, where you are never out of any season, where you go into every season thinking you have a fighting chance. And that is what a bad franchise needs more than anything else. More than Welsh. Stefanski has a better offensive mind, although Harbaugh's been very adaptable offensively. You know, I saw a stat on ESPN today. It must have been Hembo who did this. He always comes up with these. But Harbaugh, the two longest streaks of the highest winning percentage with no super bowl, like you won all these regular season games but you didn't want, are both by Harbaugh. I think they're eight years apiece. Something like that. And so like that. He has won a Super Bowl. He's won a ton of games. It's not his fault that a couple of early Lamar Jackson years, he wasn't ready yet. He was very young. And it's also not his fault that, you know, Superman's in the division, in the conference in the form of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid. I'm not saying Harbaugh is the best coach in the NFL, but he's one of the best coaches in the NFL. And any team who gets him will get the kind of thing that the Broncos got with Sean Payton. You will within a year or two. You will compete all the time. I want him for the Giants.

[B]

Of course you do. But he doesn't fit. The Giants fits the judges. Listen, this is bigger than just coaching. When you get in hardball, especially for an organization like the Browns. You mentioned Andy Reid. Remember Andy Reid left Philadelphia and went to Kansas City. This is one of those moments. This is one of those moments for us. And Jim Haslam is a very smart business guy. He's looking at this. There's no question about it. We picked great draft picks last year. We got a pretty solid defense. We have some pretty solid offensive pieces. Harbaugh comes in there, adds to our culture.

[A]

If you're a head coach, the number one thing. Well, maybe it's not number one, but it's a huge thing, is who's the quarterback. Shedor Sanders or Jackson Dart? If I'm Harbaugh, I want Jackson Dart. No, it might wind up being okay. We'll see.

[B]

But here's the thing.

[A]

Jackson Dart has through the roof talent.

[B]

It is not just the quarterback. It is not just the quarterback. And I also think for someone who Deion knows, Harbaugh would be exceptionally great for Shedeur and his development. It's just a perfect fit all the way around. And someone who can make, if I was, listen, negotiate the deal with Harbaugh. Let's give him a little small piece of ownership.

[A]

I mean, the best argument to go to the Browns is you compete against the team that got rid of you.

[B]

No, that's surface level stuff.

[A]

But if you're talking about. You gotta think bigger than. If you're looking at the teams. The Giants have excellent talent up front defensively. Their offensive line is completely turned around. They have a franchise left tackle and an otherwise much improved offensive line. They have a through the roof talented quarterback. They got a running back. They got an elite wideout when he's healthy. They have draft capital.

[B]

Did you see in 2017, 2018, he said he grew up, him and his brother, fans of the Cleveland Browns. Did you see that?

[A]

The hardball, the hard bowl in. What was that?

[B]

It just makes sense. It makes sense. He's a Cleveland type of guy. Cause if that's the case, if you're going to play that game, then hardball, then Jerry Jones should call Harbaugh. He should go to Dallas. He should go be the Dallas Cowboys coach.

[A]

I mean, well, you know, you heard the report was 17. No, no, wait. How many vacancies there are? Seven vacancies. Yeah, he got eight calls. I mean, listen, who knows if that's true, but it sounds credible, doesn't it, if Harbaugh's available?

[B]

Yes. But the perfect.

[A]

You think the Eagles might want Harbaugh? You know, Eagles fans might want Harbaugh.

[B]

I think the perfect fit is the Browns, I'm telling you.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure you do.

[B]

Perfect fit. I'm not even just saying.

[A]

I don't even know if the perfect fit is the Giants. I just want them.

[B]

Yes. I'm not just saying it because I'm a Browns fan. I'm saying it for all things align. The perfect fit is the Browns.

[A]

Is he the. Now, if you are a team looking for a coach, Tomlin still has a job in Pittsburgh. And by the way, of course the Ravens should have kept Harbaugh. Of course the Steelers should keep Tomlin. But if they get rolled by the Texans, which could happen, I mean, I think the Steelers are going to be very competitive no matter what. But the Texans defense, you know me about the Texans, I love that defense. Especially the front if they get ruled by the Texans. And Tomlin is not the Pittsburgh coach, next year, he'll get calls from an.

[B]

Expansion team, and I don't even think that's in the works.

[A]

If it comes down to Tomlin or Harbaugh. Who'd you rather have.

[B]

Me for my Browns? Yeah. First of all, I think it's harder for Tomlin to go from Pittsburgh to Cleveland than it is from Harbaugh to go from Baltimore to Cleveland. I think it's a little bit because. Just because Brown stillers the rivalry, they have more years of history and rivalry.

[A]

Yeah, the Ravens are in the division.

[B]

Yeah, but the Ravens aren't that old. The Ravens came in 1999.

[A]

But you do have the connection, as you point out.

[B]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. So there's still a little. It's almost like.

[A]

All right, fine. So if you get Harbaugh, I want Tomlin.

[B]

Great. Listen, I have one.

[A]

But as of right now, the guy who's available is Harbaugh. And the problem with the Giants, honestly, like to be real about it, the problem with the Giants is Mar has already said he's keeping Joe Shane. So if you're Harbaugh, you want to come in and play for a GM who has a short leash, you would think at this point, and a lot of people have made the point, is going to be GMing for his job.

[B]

Come into Cleveland, Harbaugh. Have a great dinner with Jim and Andrew. Talk it out. As a matter of fact, invite Myles Garrett. He'll show up. He's a professional, so he'll be early. He won't be late to the dinner. And really talk about the Browns, its culture, its history, the opportunity, the legacy, what's there. And by the way, call Mayor Bibb. He'll show up, too. There's a lot of promising things happening in the city of Cleveland. You could be a part of New York redeveloping Cleveland. All these things are there. There's a lot more opportunity there.

[A]

I mean, look, Mara. John, do me a favor. Can. Can I call you John?

[B]

I'm just telling you, Just.

[A]

Just give Harbaugh what he wants.

[B]

Cleveland it is.

[A]

Forget about what you said about. Okay, Just give Harbaugh what he wants, whatever he says. You do that now.

[B]

Now you want to beg, huh? Yeah, you tell me.

[A]

You beg. What you need to beg for?

[B]

You know, you tell me. I'm begging to have something. Subscribers subscribe to our show.

[A]

Well, this is more important. It's the Giants.

[B]

More important are subscribers don't forget, I'm a fan. You gotta be crazy.

[A]

I'm here. I'm a professional.

[B]

Fans say but about the Giants.

[A]

I'm a fan.

[B]

No. What?

[A]

A fan is short for Rich.

[B]

I don't know if you're a fanatic. Let's move on.

[A]

All right, Rich, this kind of worked out well. The other day, you had certain things to say about a topic, and through the magic of editing, we could just snap our fingers, and there it was.

[B]

You need my whiteboard again?

[A]

I think we need the whiteboard. I think we need to brand the segment Free game.

[B]

Mm. I don't like free game.

[A]

What do you like?

[B]

I don't like anything free. That bothers me.

[A]

Right. I'm a businessman. Yep. So what is it?

[B]

I can put you on game.

[A]

Put you on game.

[B]

But. But, yeah, I can always put you on game. I mean, we talked about wardrobe the other day. We talked about Jordan brand.

[A]

So you want to call those. You want to call the segment put you on game?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Better than free game.

[B]

I just don't like the word free.

[A]

All right, leader in the clubhouse has put you on game.

[B]

Yeah. And let the viewers decide.

[A]

Okay. You want to clap twice or something?

[B]

We can start it there.

[A]

Now, whiteboard, appear.

[B]

But wait a minute. What are we talking about?

[A]

Well, Trae Young is. Yes. Trae Young is what I would call a distressed commodity right now. And the reports are such harsh words that he will be traded. You want to do this on Trey Young? I mean, we could also do this on LeBron James and his comments last night.

[B]

No, we can't. Listen, what do you want to do? Enough with the LeBron stuff. Let's focus on.

[A]

So what do you want to know about Dray today?

[B]

But what do you want to know about Trey? You want to. About the situation?

[A]

The whole situation? Take us behind the curtain. You are privy, if not to the details of this particular deal, although, you know, you understand how this process works. So people watching and listening right now are all they hear is the reports, oh, Trey Young might get traded. I want you to take us behind the curtain the way you did about Jordan brand and how the branding of sneakers works, the different colorways. And when you get to the second kind of contract, the way you do the same thing behind the scenes, Trey Young, right now. Can you do that?

[B]

I could, yeah. I had a feeling that you were going to ask me about this.

[A]

Yeah. All right. Well, I mean, like, I don't necessarily.

[B]

Need to make it specifically. Well, I can make it.

[A]

Yes. Make it specific on Trey Young.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. You want me to snap or you?

[B]

I got it. Okay, Max, look at that.

[A]

The magic of editing.

[B]

Yes. It's called preparation. All right, So I put you on the game a little bit. Take you behind, behind the scenes. So in this case, we're talking about the player, Trey Young. Right? So as you can see here, got the point player. The first thing you want to focus on is the mental state of the player.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Because as you know, as tough as these guys are, our game is 90% minimum, no player.

[A]

Well, that's what toughness is.

[B]

I know, but there's also build that comes with it. Physique. But no player likes to hear their name in the public in a negative light.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And for some strange reason, although it's a part of our business, guys get traded. It's just part of the business. No player also likes to be traded unless it's on their terms.

[A]

Not for some strange reason. You would never trade Michael Jordan. You would never trade LeBron James. You would never trade Kobe Bryant.

[B]

I think you would.

[A]

You would never trade Larry Bird, Magic Johnson. If you're like that, you don't get traded.

[B]

But those are franchise players. Yeah, you can't. But that's not fair.

[A]

You never trade Steph Curry. And Trae Young was trying to be like Steph Curry, and he was another franchise player.

[B]

But you've been unfair in this situation. The second thing is narrative. Now you have to focus on controlling the narrative. Right. As a player, he would want his representation, I imagine, to control the narrative. No, it's not that I'm not wanted. There's a mutual agreement that the time is up. I understand that, and they understand that, and we're agreeing together on that.

[A]

Can I stop you and ask you a question here?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

This is kind of a meta question about. So a lot of haters will right now, as soon as you say that, they'll be, like, controlling the narrative. See, Rich Paul controls the narrative. That's what LeBron likes to do. That's what Rich likes to do, control the narrative. Are you worried at all when you say that? Or even as you're trying to control the narrative in a process like this, that you get blowback about the fact that you're trying to control it? Or does that not matter?

[B]

No, but that's part of it. See, people take controlling the narrative as you only wanting good things out there about you. That's not what it is. Controlling the narrative or just not even control. Just managing the narrative. Because if you let it just Be one sided.

[A]

I see.

[B]

As an agent, you have to tell.

[A]

Your side of the story.

[B]

Also you have a client, your client is calling you and saying, hey man, this is not how it's supposed to go. This is. And so you have to do something about that. As the player, you also want to do whatever you can to try to maintain your value, whatever that could be. Right. Because some, some guys get traded with equal value, some guys get traded with lesser value, Some guys get traded with a little bit more value given the team on the other side and what they, how they value.

[A]

All right, I have another question there. Okay.

[B]

They may give up more, right. But so if you're got five picks.

[A]

If you're the agent of a player, if you're Trae Young's agent in this.

[B]

Case.

[A]

To maintain the value means whoever you get traded to is more weakened as a franchise if they trade more for you.

[B]

On the other hand, not necessarily.

[A]

Even if it's draft picks, you're weakened in the future. The point is the point. Don't you want them to trade less for you or is that saying it diminishes your client if they trade less for you?

[B]

No. Well, it's two things. In this particular case, there's probably only going to be maybe one or two teams maybe. Right. So. But, but let me get through it. I'll answer your question. The other thing is the play, right. So this is tough because you still have to go out and play. Now we saw the team do well. Not so well. Then do well again. I think it's unfair to blame one person on that. But optics are optics, right? You have to manage the optics in that case. Now the GM one is the GM for his current team. That GM has to do one thing mainly, and that's okay. If we are moving this player, I have to do a really good job of managing assets because with his player option, and I know the contract very.

[A]

Well in Trae Young's case. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Who did that contract? Mm.

[B]

Well, Omar Wilkes and myself did the contract when he was once a client. But he has a big number. So that number to go out, like you're saying, getting to your question. Yes. Normally you would have to deplete the team that you're going to, to add.

[A]

But because they're adding that number to their payroll, they're giving up less.

[B]

Well, because they're adding that number to a team that probably isn't trying to win. That team can trade back an expiring contract that is close to that number, but it will not Come without an asset being given up by the team that's sending them out. That's where it gets a little conflicting. Because yes, the team that's taking you in, they want. They'll take you in. We've seen it happen. We've seen Charlotte do it this year, we've seen the Brooklyn Nets do it. You saw Sam Presti did it several years, but that's how they were accumulating draft capital.

[A]

So this is my question going back to before, is it okay, like am I interrupting the flow or can I say.

[B]

No, no, no, go ahead. Because I think it's good for people to know.

[A]

Yeah, so this is my question. If Nikola Jokic was traded, he has a huge number. Everyone would not only match if they had to an expiring contract to match the number, they would give up a ton of stuff for him cuz it's Jokic. So as his agent.

[B]

But that's unfair. You're confusing the people with that comparison because you're comparing a franchise player.

[A]

Yes, but that's what I'm saying. So as his agent, if you're Trae Young's agent, do you want the franchise who's acquiring him to give up more for him because it suggests your client is on a certain level, or do you want them to give up less for him because then he goes into more of a winning because they didn't have to give up as much.

[B]

Naturally you want them to give up. Both things could be right. Naturally you want them to give up more because that will position you stronger with that team because they gave up a lot to get you so on and so forth. But this, all that is not in play here because again, going to the agent, what they probably are trying to figure out or to maintain is one, the narrative, right? Gotta manage the narrative. But the other thing, that's why I have this here. You want one team because often what you're trying to do in this situation is you trying to move, but you want to extend on the move. So what that means is get him to a place to where he can opt into his last year of his contract. Because I doubt if he opts out unless you have some money, tear it.

[A]

Up because you're going to do a long deal, right?

[B]

Yeah. But you still wouldn't tear. You opt in and then extend, probably for lesser money. So you only need to find one team in this case because here's the thing.

[A]

Wait, Rich, they wouldn't tear. They wouldn't tear up the deal to do a longer deal because it Gives him the extension and factors that in. You know what I mean?

[B]

You could opt out. Yes. To get a surplus of 50 million. Right, right. So now I have 90 million over the next four years. I added a 50 million.

[A]

Yeah. Just dollars in. You're just adding up the dollars. Yeah.

[B]

You can do that? Yes, if that's on the table. But you can also do the opp. If you go into a team that's not necessarily in contending form and they can. They're not in the apron, they're not in a tax, and they can have your salary on the books for this year and then extend you for a lesser number going out for maybe two more years, I imagine, then, yes, you can do that. But in this case, it's not like there's teams clamoring. Right.

[A]

He's a distressed asset.

[B]

Yeah, I would never use that word for a player. But I'm just being honest. It's not like it's teams clamoring, but it don't matter if it's teams clamoring in our profession. It don't matter. Most players aren't going to get five, six, seven teams. Most players don't have the entire market. There's some guys who make the market and there's some guys who have to fit within the market.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

In this case, you gotta identify a market. You really probably have to build a market for that. And you use your relationships. Trae Young has value. Trae Young is a really good basketball player.

[A]

Just know this gives you an advantage over a lot of agents, I imagine, because you do know what you're looking at in with basketball. So you are able to construct an argument to a team that may not be on. The first thing on their mind is Trae Young. But if you represent Trae Young, you may be able to construct a persuasive argument to a team why he would be good for them. And you might be able to construct that argument better than another agent because you know the basketball better.

[B]

Well, listen, I'm not the type of person that will say, oh, I'm the best and everybody else suck. I don't do that. And I don't do that in meetings. I don't. Negative recruit. I would never do.

[A]

It's my observation what they do to me.

[B]

But what I will say is.

[A]

What they do to you, huh?

[B]

Yeah, but what I will say is this again in this situation. That's why I have GM number two. Okay, so if this is the team that you're trying to place them with, what they're Going to focus on more than anything. Sure, we'll take the contract, but what's coming with it? What's our asset gain? Is it a first round pick? Is it two first? Which probably won't happen, but we have to have some type of asset gain. It could be two seconds, depending on what they need. Right. I'm just giving you the team to.

[A]

Whom he is getting traded to. Not just. Doesn't just want Trae Young. You have to. He wants some kind of asset back.

[B]

Yes. Assets going up where he's at now. You have to incentivize. It's not like the phone is ringing the other way and saying we want them. It's a different dynamic. That's why the narrative has to be balanced out a little bit. Because you have to create some type of market. Then they're gonna focus on the production, which we know Trae Young, every night, most nights he's gonna be 25 and 10 that you don't have to worry about.

[A]

And it'll be exciting that you don't.

[B]

Have to worry about. The third thing is, does he fit our culture? Right? Because you have a guy who was once the top player on his team coming into a culture. We didn't draft him. Now, the good thing is the teams that's out there that they're talking about, normally when those teams are out there, someone somewhere once had some type of relationship with the player and they have some familiarity and they're able to talk to their ownership group, talk to the head coach, talk to the gm and smooth it out if it's. But this gm, he didn't draft a player, so it's not his responsibility. So at that point, when the GM doesn't draft you, everything has to be here in order because he's not going to jeopardize his job for someone he didn't draft. Right. So he has no ownership there. But it's. And in this case, it's the opposite way. And then the fourth thing is timeline. What I mean timeline is are we trending in a direction where we plug this person? It fits our timeline in terms of play. Also age in the locker room. We gotta look at some of our other players and what their age is and figure out if this makes sense, you know, from a leadership perspective. All these different things. When you're bringing somebody else into the locker room of a team that is probably a little on the young side and not really has really evolved or matured yet in terms of what their roster looks like. And so you have to consider all these things. But I say all that to say I see a lot of takes on shows today, and I see a lot of crazy takes like Trey Reed shepherd and Jabari Smith for, like, those things are really fantasy basketball, and it doesn't work like that. But I'm not going to get up here and act as if Trae Young does not have value. I think that's a little misleading.

[A]

That's the issue for me with Trae Young. Let me give you two sides of it. From a fan's point of view, thinking, like, if I was the gm, if I was gm, too, what I'd be thinking, okay, on the one hand.

[B]

I.

[A]

Have now seen him. Well, first of all, let me ask your basketball opinion. Is Trey Young as good as he ever was?

[B]

Is Trey Young as good as he ever was?

[A]

He still in his prime?

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[A]

Okay, so as a gm, if that's what my people are telling me, right. The scouts and everything are like, no, he's physically, we watching him closely. He's what he ever was. On the one hand, I'm thinking he has now been through stretches, two stretches of injury with this crew in Atlanta where they clearly functioned better without him, and that is very damning. So I'm not trying to give up real assets to get him. On the other hand, you know, a good player and a bad player. He's a good player.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can get him for pennies on the dollar. Him and John Morant.

[B]

Well, it's not really. It's not really pennies on the dollar.

[A]

Compared to what it would have been three years ago.

[B]

I'm not sure what it would have been three years ago.

[A]

Not higher than it is now, my man.

[B]

Actually, I am sure what it would have been three years ago.

[A]

Higher than today, right?

[B]

Yeah. Yes. What's higher is not so much as the assets coming back. If there was any, it's the perception is higher.

[A]

And therefore there, because the perception was higher, then there had been more buyers. And if there are more buyers, there's more demand, the price goes up.

[B]

See, I always see, I always thought, what was a good landing spot for him two and a half years ago? Because sometimes you have to get ahead of these things. Right?

[A]

That's interesting.

[B]

Like in a situation with de'. Aaron.

[A]

Right. I love the fact that you bring up de' Aaron Fox. I'm watching him last night and I texted you. I'm like, he's kind of the secret weapon on the Spurs. They were talking about how clutch he is. And as I'm Texting you this. He gets his shot blocked. It would have been the game winner. But okay, whatever. You're not gonna win them all. But, like, de' Aaron Fox is in such a good situation now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And he went from starring on a bad franchise, on a bad team, to playing a complimentary role on a team that has a chance to eventually win a championship.

[B]

But let me tell you, by the.

[A]

Way, that could happen. I don't think it'll happen this year, but it's not out of the question.

[B]

But here's the thing. He never wanted to leave that team.

[A]

Never wanted to leave Sacramento.

[B]

He did not. No. And when I first signed him, one of the biggest things was because, you know, I get the reputation that, oh, if you sign up, then he's gonna try to move you to a better market or a bigger team, whatever the case may be. That was one of the things. He's like, rich, you know, I really wanna see this thing through here in Sacramento because they drafted me and he liked the ownership group, et cetera. And even if I forget about seeing.

[A]

It through it, I can see through it. Get out.

[B]

But that wasn't the case. It took a little time, but it took some time. But with that being said, he trusted me to be able to present to him places that I thought made a lot of sense for him going forward in the future.

[A]

So at a certain point in Sacramento, you're like, look, did he come to you, or did you go to him and like, look, this ain't working.

[B]

I mean, the writing was on the wall.

[A]

There's no future in it.

[B]

But we handled it very professionally, as professionally as you can, and you see the disgruntle and things like that, but you still have to go out and play. And every situation is different. But in this case, then now you have to have foresight. So my. The foresight was, let's look at these teams. Orlando, San Antonio. Teams that really needed a point guard, but also had some other key pieces that he would fit right into and be able to catapult. So ultimately, we landed on San Antonio, and San Antonio saw it as well. But again, when you talk about they still looking at culture, timeline. Hey, you coming in here next to Wemby, Wemby's going to be our franchise guy.

[A]

But not only that, like, he's coming. Fox gets kind of in terms of the press that they get or in the imagination of the fans, when people talk about the Spurs, Wemby. And then after Wemby, it's kind of.

[B]

Like Harper and Castle and that's okay.

[A]

And he becomes. No, I'm saying it's really good placement by you and him because he becomes the victim, veteran leader who can take over in crunch time. And that's why I say in a weird way, he's kind of their secret weapon.

[B]

But again, what you're saying goes into why they acquire him. Because I'm not worried about that. I can have nine points like last night. I can have 30 points. At the end of the day, I'm coming in here because I want to win. I want to, you know, I want to play every role. And also, I know my place.

[A]

Hard to explain to a guy I imagine. Imagine I don't know Trae Young, but like, you know, I've interviewed him. But hard to imagine talking to a guy like Trae Young and explaining three years ago, yes, the perception of you as a guy who got traded. No, you may not have the exact same role somewhere else, but in the long run, if you do this, it's going to be better for you.

[B]

Okay, so that is the hardest thing for any player. I'm not going to pick on Trae Young, I'm going to say any player, especially when you're drafted high in the draft, right? But one thing about being a lottery pick or a high draft pick, it doesn't entitle you to be in that one place forever. Right? You have to mainstay that. So in this case, you know, what I foresaw back then was Toronto. And the reason why I foresaw Toronto is because I'm looking at it holistically, right? Basketball wise. I thought about Ice Tray. It's fucking ice cold up there. The kids, the style of play. I thought there was a.

[A]

You thought you always beat me in the head with Toronto as a market for these guys. You have a whole country behind you, all of that.

[B]

But no, but seriously, because Mighty Mouse 2.0 between. You know, I think about things that when you go into the organization and you having these conversations with them, because what people don't understand is there's a basketball side of an organization, but there's also a business side of the organization. And if you can give that insight and it's a holistic approach, then it makes sense because, no, Toronto's a great.

[A]

Call from both points. They've won a championship. And you do have a whole market.

[B]

But this was before the RJ and Quickley trade. That obviously changes things. It changes things. But again, I think that it's the toughest part and the toughest part about Our league is. Everything is public. These guys salaries is public. How somebody feel about you is public. How you feel about them could be public. And so in this position, so we can move on. The mental piece for the player matters more than anything because you still gotta go in that locker room. You still have to go to practice and you still have to be able to maintain a sense of professionalism, a smile, be cordial with your teammates and things like that. It's not an easy thing to do.

[A]

It's even harder in this case, I think. And let's be specific about Trae Young. Cause if you're the Hawks, you look at what you have and you go, we're actually really good and we're better without him.

[B]

Well, the Hawks are led by Jaden Johnson now.

[A]

Right. However maybe you want, you want a guy in the backcourt in the playoffs who's really a point guard. I mean, you could. But my point is about the Hawks in this case, the asset that you get back. If I'm the Hawks, I don't want it just to be an expiring contract.

[B]

No, you're not.

[A]

I want, I need, I need someone to add to the team a little bit right now because they could go on a little run right now.

[B]

But this is where media and expertise differentiate your media. Sure, I'm expertise. That's not happening.

[A]

You're not gonna get anything. You can't, you can't add even if it's a role player, something that makes you improve your team.

[B]

Yeah, you can get an expiring contract back. That may be an older guy.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah, you can get that.

[A]

Who can help you right now in addition to a little draft gap?

[B]

You can get that. You can get C.J. mcCollum.

[A]

Yes, that's what I mean.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, but you were saying in a different way.

[A]

No, no, no. What I'm saying is it's already addition by subtraction. If I'm front office, I'm thinking we're going to get rid of him and we're going to be better as a result. But can we also get a little better than that by who we acquire?

[B]

You can do that. Yeah.

[A]

In other words, not just in the.

[B]

Future with draft capital, in a sense, you hope you're able to get an expiring contract and someone who's coming to your locker room that can still play a little bit and that you may can keep around in that case too, if you.

[A]

And you might want stuff that you can re flip into another deal. To bring someone else in.

[B]

You could do that, too.

[A]

Yes, because their secrets out there right now.

[B]

But you've got to do those three things. Yes, but you got two teams that's in different positions.

[A]

I want to talk about. I didn't even realize I was going to do this. I want to talk about another one of your clients, not just LeBron. Anthony Davis, when he is on the floor, is there has not been any diminishment of his play. No. Since any part of his career when he's on the floor, he is an elite player when he's on the floor. But given his age, his contract and his injury history, he's also going to be seen as a distressed asset.

[B]

No, no, he.

[A]

Again, I don't want to put it this way. He just got traded for Luka Doncic. If he gets moved again, you are not going to have to give up a Luka Doncic to get him.

[B]

No. Well, they didn't. Well, they didn't have to do that. I'm not getting into that. Here's what I'll say. I don't like to use the word distress for no player, whether I represent them or not. So I won't be.

[A]

You don't have to. It's useful for me, though.

[B]

Yeah. I'll be respectful to the player in that regard. What I will say is, if you're looking to trade for a player of the magnitude of Anthony Davis, again, going back to timeline, what you're saying is this player gives us a shot to either get to or get over.

[A]

Oh, my God. If you. If a team that is poised already adds Anthony freaking Davis right now, especially if that fills a need. But even some. There are even some teams that kind of have someone in that role doing okay. But if you turn that person into AD and AD Stays healthy, that's always the caveat with him because he's going to miss 20 to 25 games a year or 20 games a year or something like that. If he could be healthy in the playoffs, you could make a run this year. Like, you could win the whole thing. He was outstanding last night. He changed everything for that team.

[B]

Well, that's the. That's the difference. And you say he was outstanding last night. I was at the game last night. I guarantee you if you ask him was he outstanding last night, he'll say, man, I missed so many shots.

[A]

Yeah, but defensively he changed everything.

[B]

Of course. But I could sit there and say he probably. If I asked him, which he would probably say, what do you have? 19 and 15 or I don't remember.

[A]

This, I don't remember this, whatever it was.

[B]

But he probably could have had or should have had not to make every shot but maybe 28 and see if.

[A]

I'm the Mavs and I think Kyrie's ever going to get healthy. I'm just saying, like I know the Luka AD trade, that was the worst trade ever, blah blah blah. Luka could be a dead end player if he, if he refuses to ever move his feet on defense. You will never win a championship with Luka and eight and like the Mavericks if they could just stay healthy. Like Cooper Flag is already a problem. Yeah, but given Cooper Flag's timeline, it's his. He has a steep learning curve. Like I know that's a veteran team, but a young guy.

[B]

But Cooper, no. One thing about Cooper the best I was on the record at Frank isola's I think SiriusXM show during the draft. The best thing about Cooper is he knows how to play. So in that case it's actually you're getting a very young player that can produce and knows how to play. Obviously he gonna hit his.

[A]

But the point is as a rookie you would think maybe he's a number three. He is not a number three option as a rookie. He could be your one or two options.

[B]

But that's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is his salary compared to his production.

[A]

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[B]

Is different. It is actually an asset. It's a plus in that regard. Normally that player, his salary, where he is today, his production would probably be a 30 to 35 million player on your books.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

So that's a luxury. But with that being said, there's some other things that, you know, all teams have to look at.

[A]

And this again I know, like when you start talking like that, I know there are things you can't talk about because you are. Because you have clients and this and not even about some of them, but.

[B]

It'S not even about the clients.

[A]

There's things that, I mean the masks look. Masks look pretty good when they're healthy.

[B]

There's things that you want to be respectful to and I will. But there's also things, I mean I would answer any question that you want me to ask that you want to.

[A]

Ask, but I'm not gonna. I wouldn't put you in that situation.

[B]

But again, you know, AD makes any team bad. I said that last, on the last show. He makes any team better.

[A]

You are not lying. All right, let's move on. Cause we should pay some bills and move the whiteboard. Yeah, the magic, you know, like you want to clap again.

[B]

Wait.

[C]

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[A]

38 and 8 at the age of 41. It's unbelievable. No wonder he's the second greatest player who ever played.

[B]

I'm kind of jaded, to be honest with you. I'm a little jaded.

[A]

You're jaded? Why?

[B]

Yeah, because.

[A]

Windmill dunks and stuff.

[B]

I made a comment before. I said that obviously the ceiling is who he is or who he has been for his career. But the floor was Karl malone. Like if LeBron just. Yes, if LeBron just decided to set screens. Pop set. If you set like last night. Right.

[A]

Pick and pop, pick and roll.

[B]

But remember I said they're gonna have to. If deandre Ayton sets the screen, they're gonna blitz luka and make Deandre Ayton make a decision.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If LeBron sets the screen, you pretty much have to switch it.

[A]

You're on one of the greatest decision makers who ever lived.

[B]

Because if you blitz him now, he's short, rolling as a decision maker and.

[A]

Impossible.

[B]

So now, and by the way, now.

[A]

If Austin Reaves is healthy, you know, I always think they should move Austin Reaves. But when you put it like that, if Luka and LeBron are in the pick and roll.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Austin Reaves is on the floor, you're gonna score.

[B]

But here's the thing. People say they should move Austin Reaves. And again, I want to make sure people understand. Most people say they should move Austin Reaves because they think that it's crowded, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then there's another case of, well, contract.

[A]

You'Re gonna have to pay him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the defense, given how LeBron at his age and Luka don't play defense. Austin Reaves is a willing defender, but not a talented defender. And so now your three best players, you need a lot of defense that.

[B]

With the money, there's no doubt Austin Reaves has to be paid, Right. I don't know how much.

[A]

A lot. You're gonna be paid a lot.

[B]

A lot. Right. So if you are. If you can maintain that while still being able to build is one thing. If you get humstrung by it and that's your money is tied up in those two guys, it's another thing. But yeah, to your point, in terms of just from a basketball premise perspective, yes. If you now have Rui or Austin and LeBron spraying and whomever it is in the dunker spot, that's more of a. From a lob perspective, you're actually pretty good. If those guys can make sense.

[A]

So why wouldn't. I mean, I totally agree. If LeBron is Karl Malone, he can play several more years. Why not?

[B]

Well, listen, listen.

[A]

There's less for him to do. And so because of that, he can also play a little more defense.

[B]

Everyone's like, you know, do the farewell last year, this and that. Like, I don't know what it is, but I hope it's not his last year.

[A]

The fact that you're talking about this on game over now, I hope it's.

[B]

Not his last year. I'm not.

[A]

That means that you talked to him about it. You have not discussed this with LeBron.

[B]

No.

[A]

You never went to LeBron and said, why don't you be Karl Malone?

[B]

Oh, yes. No, no, no. And what's he saying? Not beat Karl Malone? No. What you mean we talked? I just told you that the other night. That's what we were talking about. I liked him.

[A]

No, but that's for this game. And then he made. That was for the Memphis game, by the way. Okay. All right, all right. This opens up a whole can of worms. People are focusing on him, saying, I can't. I'm TBD. I'm back to backs. I'm 41. I played the most minutes in NBA history. That's a given, obviously, like, obvious smart. It would be stupid for him to be that level. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I want to focus on something else, actually. His comment about bending to Luca. He says everyone's gotta bend to Luca. Is that starting to hint at what you're talking about him as Carl Malone to Luca's John Stockton. Right. Is he talking about. Although Luca would do more of the scoring, but is he talking about or hinting at doing the thing that you're talking about?

[B]

You know what? That's actually a very astute, self aware, admirable comment to make because it is excellent. It is totally different from what the narrative was when the trade happened all through the summer. Right. What was being exuded? And that's one of those things where it's like when someone does something, two wrongs don't make a right. That's one of those two wrongs don't make a right comment.

[A]

Okay. Why?

[B]

Because I think two things could be true. I think that when you have someone that's been around the game at the level that he's been around it, and with the production that he has, right. The resume that he has and the experience that he has, you appreciate that and you try to exude or distract as much as that possible and bottle it for your organization. So to show that appreciation and then be extremely excited for the new right in terms of, like he said, a 26 year old player coming in. And I think that in LeBron's case, however many more years he has to play and we have had this conversation, I think it's always important for when the game has given you so much, I think it's so important for you to spend these years creating moments and memories for young players in your locker room, sharing that locker room with you. Give them everything. Give them everything you have, because you don't know how much longer you're going to be in those locker rooms. You're not going to get that back. Which is why I felt like when I went to the spurs facility and their legacy players had lockers, that means a lot. That is a culture thing. That's a building block type of thing, foundational thing. And so in this case, what LeBron did last night is not so much as what he said. You know, we got the band. I think the word Ben could be taken out of context.

[A]

No, I think it was good. I think people take that the right way. Hey, we, whoever, we need to fit in, he's the sun and we need to orbit him.

[B]

Yes, right. But when the takes was, oh, when he comes back, he has to fit. That's what I mean by that. It's not so much as fit in because again, you're talking about a guy who arguably was the smartest player to ever play the game in terms of, I mean, this is not me saying it.

[A]

He's right there with magic.

[B]

This is, coach, you got this on tape. You got coaches saying it, you got GM saying it, you got teammates saying it, you got opposing players saying it. You watch Jeff Tieg, you watch DeMar DeRozan, guys who's played against him in the playoffs for several years. That is all nourishment. That is. I'm not in a rush for that to go anywhere. Right? And so to me, I think that what he did last night was exactly what I said. And what you're starting to see between he and Luca and also when AR get back is contradiction from what the media spins and the water cooler conversations were. And that's what it's supposed to be. The players leading by example.

[A]

Yeah, LeBron's a championship player and he said the right thing last night. To me, that's the news. Not the second of back to backs. But we need to bend around Luka because if the gravitational force on offense on the team is Luka, he's the.

[B]

Son, he's going to be the guy.

[A]

And they're the planets that he's the number one option. And by the way, why is that.

[B]

A bad thing for Luka? It's not a bad thing if when.

[A]

David Robinson did that for Tim Duncan, he got praised. Now the reason he got praised, of course, is because they won a championship together. And here is where I get on Luka. If you are the son, son, you gotta play some defense. Like, you gotta move your feet. You can't be. It creates a structural problem.

[B]

No, no, that's what happens. That's what happens when you keep going back to the same thing. Max, we get it, we understand, but it's not.

[A]

But the structural problem is LeBron being 41 has to be very selective about defense. AR is not a defender. He's a willing defender, but he's not a great one. Yes, but Max, that's three guys.

[B]

But Max, Max, you're putting all the eggs in the basket of Luka playing defense. I wouldn't give a damn.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

If Luka turned into Tony Allen, if Luka can turn into Tony Allen right.

[A]

Now, if Luka turn into Tony Allen, they'd have a chance to win a championship.

[B]

No, that's not true.

[A]

If LeBron is doing what you're not true. Hold on, wait.

[B]

That is not.

[A]

Ron is doing what you're saying. If he plays Carl Malone, Luka's playing defense. Like he can't. But if he was defensively, Tony Allen, AR gets healthy. You, you still have DeAndre, Ayton, Ruy.

[B]

You have some guys you can compete.

[A]

For a championship, you might win one.

[B]

Listen, you have a puncher's chance with the talent, period. When you have that level of talent. But when you, you keep focusing on.

[A]

But they don't have a puncher's chance. Now is my point. Not with, not with Luca playing like you are.

[B]

You always have a puncher's chance. When you. A puncher's chance Is exactly what it is. It's a puncher's chance.

[A]

They got no chance. I'm saying they got no chance.

[B]

Okay, fair. But I would say you have a puncher's chance. You see guys get injured, you see stuff happen, whatever. Well, okay, you have a puncher's chance.

[A]

Everyone gets hurt, but that's what a puncher's chance is. Everyone's gotta get everyone on, every other team's gotta get punched and knocked out.

[B]

That's what a puncher's chance is. Whatever you want to call it. The point I'm making is if you. This is the point I made the other day. If you, if you can do some surface level things, I'm not saying go out here and pigeonhole your future, right? I'm not saying that. But I'm also not saying play this game of wait on the biggest name. Because that to me, and this is me speaking as media, not an agent, this is me speaking as media. That to me is fantasy basketball. Because the reality of it is every year is different. Every year is different. So you can't just throw a year away. Now, I'm not saying again, no, but.

[A]

You can look for. If you have Luka, he's 26, you don't think you're going to win the title this year. You have ar, who's going to. You're going to lose for nothing if you don't move him or resign him. Or resign him, right? LeBron is in the last year. Who knows if he's back next year. What if a team like the Knicks wants to say, hey, could we fit you in over here? And you know, who knows, right? Or Cleveland or whoever on a vet minimum just to try to win a title, who knows, right? So if there is another foundational piece that is in the same peer group as Luka in terms of his age, you might want to pull the trigger now while you have an asset like AR to do it.

[B]

Not answer his question, but not even okay, yes.

[A]

And not lose him for nothing.

[B]

There could be an opportunity to do that, but that has to come from strictly basketball decision making right there. But what I'm saying to you is if you're looking at what you have and you looking at the landscape of the league, it used to be that a championship team had at least two or more players that was head and shoulders above the opponents.

[A]

Things are changing, right? Yeah, things are changing. No doubt about it.

[B]

So now this is more of a. No pun on the warriors, but this is a more of a strengthened numbers.

[A]

Era yeah, because the role player, the three and D guy who's now a three and D plus guy because he can make decisions, he could put the ball on the floor a little bit. His level is closer to all star than it used to be.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So really, a lot of that is opportunity. Does he get to star in that role or not? And a perfect example of Mikhail Bridges, it turns out. No, he's not actually the star in that role, but he can do it for a little while. 3 and D plus guys are closer to all stars than they used to be. And as a result, you don't need two super duper max players or three max contracts. You. You need one superstar and like other guys who can really play.

[B]

Because here's the thing. When you have these super duper max players, right, you have to manage a lot. You're sitting here talking to me about Tatum and Brown and how, you know, this shouldn't work and who's better.

[A]

This and the Phoenix Suns don't have that problem right now.

[B]

Why do you want to? I don't think the Boston Celtics have the problem. I think the people outside of the Boston Celtics try to put a problem on it.

[A]

I'm not trying to put a problem. I'm asking a question to fans.

[B]

Just as a fan, I understand that.

[A]

When Brown gets back, who's better? Not saying that one has to go, one has to. I'm just saying who's better?

[B]

When you're inside the culture, you don't want to hear that. But what I'm saying to you is, in this case, I'm not even making this about LeBron. This is LeBron.

[A]

You're saying inside the sports culture itself.

[B]

No, I'm talking about inside the culture of an organization.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm just saying, by the way, inside the culture of an organization, agents, ancillary people, GMs, players, everything is several thousand people. Fans who want to do what I said or millions of people.

[B]

The fans is what makes our game. I get it. No question about it. But what I'm saying to you is I'm not even making this about LeBron. Put LeBron off to the side. You know why? LeBron has his championships, he has his accolades. He's a first ballot hall of Famer. He has all these things. Luka doesn't.

[A]

No, he does not.

[B]

He has the talent, but he hasn't won a championship yet. Right.

[A]

And if this continues, he never will. This has to change.

[B]

But there also hasn't been talk of. Let's help you understand what it's like. Or how to win a championship.

[A]

Oh, you mean the influence that LeBron can have on Luke? Of course. Yes.

[B]

That is the money.

[A]

Now you're talking.

[B]

That is the money. That is what everything should be about. How are we putting people around this young man in the locker room? Attitudes, work ethics, professionalism, play iq, all these things. Because I can tell you something. When LeBron was 26 years old, there was no LeBron next to him in the locker room.

[A]

Right. That's why he went to Miami.

[B]

The comments that he made yesterday when he came to Cleveland, there's tape of players saying, oh, he's going to have to just ride our bandwagon. And he's. You see the difference? What are you talking about? Ride your bandwagon? Now, again, I know it could probably be taken out of context, but I'm just saying don't take no years for granted. Don't pigeonhole the future. But if we're talking about a strength in numbers type of thing, and we're talking about strictly the focus on Luca, not nobody else.

[A]

So to understand what you're saying, let me make sure I understand this. You don't throw a year away.

[B]

No.

[A]

Even if you think that you're not going to win a championship with this crew, even if AR is there, if he's not there, whatever. The value at this moment is that LeBron can impart to Luka the part of the journey that he has been on that Luka has not been on. And that has real value, not only in terms of the kind of run you could make this year, whatever that may be, but going forward for the franchise. It's a great point. Let me ask you a question. And I hesitate to ask because, I mean, part of the intrigue of doing this show with you, for me, is that we have the kind of person who the public normally doesn't have access to to peek behind the curtain, but on the other hand, I wanna be a little sensitive to your actual business. So I'm gonna ask you the question, but you obviously don't have to answer it.

[B]

I'll decide. Depending on what you're saying.

[A]

In your experience, has one, LeBron James approached Luca with that attitude behind the scenes, like, hey, let me give you this. And two, and this might even be more important. Has Luka been receptive to it if LeBron has.

[B]

I don't know the answer to that per se, because, honestly, I have not been in the weeds, so I don't know the answer to that per se. What I will say is, from My experience, when you have a guy that's the ultimate professional in terms of habits, discipline, promptness, preparation, all those things, it's one thing to say something, it's another thing to lead by example, right? And Luka has always said the one player that he admired and LeBron was him.

[A]

So LeBron's trying to give him the. What was it? Habits, discipline, promptness. And what was the other one?

[B]

Preparation.

[A]

Preparation. He's trying to get. Yeah, but Luca, let me give you the hidden.

[B]

But what I'm saying is, is not so much as, you know, everyone has pride, right? And we also live in a world where I did it myself. No one does anything by themselves, Right. No one has a DIY to you.

[A]

But you just said it. This is your guy. You were the most precocious player to come around since LeBron. You were the best 21 year old since LeBron. The best 22 year old, or so it seems.

[B]

You keep dropping the papers, man.

[A]

Yeah, this is the only one I need.

[B]

Let's throw the papers away. But here's what I'm saying.

[A]

But we have a lot of times.

[B]

Here's what I'm saying, for a guy with the eyes in the back of their head, see everything. Vision on the court, you don't have to. You see everything, right? And we're seeing a jail. We're seeing a jail. But what I'm saying is when you're talking about building blocks, there's building blocks to get you to where? To the promised land. Even if someone is no longer there, the experience that you have during that time carries throughout for the younger person. That's why when you go to granny's house, right. And when you spend at your grandmother's house, there's no getting up at 12 o', clock, 1 o', clock, 2 o'.

[A]

Clock.

[B]

No, you're not doing any of that. You're getting up at a decent hour. You have to do whatever, the chores, whatever. It's a very disciplinary type of thing. As you grow older, some of those things that was instilled in you, that you huffed and puffed and blew the house down about, that you didn't want to do. When you get your own place, you find yourself doing what, those exact things.

[A]

Habits you're talking about. Yeah.

[B]

When you have resources in the soil of your organization present right there, you don't extract those things or you don't, you know, put something over them so it don't shine as much, or they're not visible. You actually water that and seed it. You Try to get as much as that around this young man as you possibly can.

[A]

Well, I got something to say about Luka. If I know he's not the athlete LeBron is. Very few people have been, but he's achieved kind of on the surface, similar offensive results at similar ages to LeBron. LeBron went to Miami and learned what it took to win championships. And primarily he became an all time great defender. Under Spoelstra and Pat Riley, he became an all time. I forgot if it was 2012 or.

[B]

2013, he should have won defensive player of the year.

[A]

Yes, he reminded me, I've said this before, of Dennis Rodman, almost. Not quite as intense, but like he could guard every position. He was everywhere, all at once. He was. And to me, that's LeBron's actual prime that year where he was both sides of the floor, best player in the world.

[B]

Well, he's had like four primes, but that's okay.

[A]

Yeah, but I think that was, that was the LeBron that I would take the defense's effort. Okay, look, I'm not asking Luka to be the best defensive player in the world. He shouldn't be the worst. Luka right now is arguably the worst defensive player in the world. Can't happen. It's never going to happen. I don't care what, like he's going to have to do more than this. He's going to have to show a willingness, an effort.

[B]

But here's what I'm saying. You don't have to dwell on that. We hear you.

[A]

I think we do.

[B]

We hear you loud and clear on that part. All I'm saying is.

[A]

I'll tell you. No, wait, I'll tell you why we do. Because when you say it's effort, it's not just the kind of specific point of playing defense to win and da, da, da, da. It's that what it reflects. Cause we've seen this with James Harden and by the time he started putting effort into defense, it was already too late, actually. Yes, but we've seen a guy dribble the ball to death, do all these incredible things, score, take his team on some runs, but never get to the finals, never win a championship. And this is James Harden 2.0. It's the same thing.

[B]

But everyone keeps saying that. Everyone keeps saying that.

[A]

But I mean, I said all this about Harden at the time and then that came to pass. It's a shame. You don't want that for the player. You want the player to shine.

[B]

So let me ask you this question. If you're saying this is James Harden 2.0. You know what I would do? I would go back and I would look at how a team was constructed around James Harden and I would look at my current team. I can almost guarantee you there was no LeBron James on that team with James Harden. Cause if it was, he would have three rings.

[A]

Yeah, could be.

[B]

I can guarantee you that. That's number one. Number two.

[A]

Or if he had LeBron in his prime, they'd win every year.

[B]

Well, number two, I don't know if there was a point player as good as Austin Reeves has become also with James Harden.

[A]

CP3.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. CP was great. Yeah. Okay. Fair. Yeah. Okay. So you. So you two.

[A]

I'm saying he had plenty of bites at the apple. He was on plenty of good teams.

[B]

You have two of the three. He had a lob threat and. And Clinton Capella.

[A]

Good team, man.

[B]

He had. Trevor at that time, was still strong. Yeah. But then Pat Bev.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Pat Bev. Yes. He.

[A]

Dude, he had a lot. And by the way, he went far. And if not for the worst shooting performance ever. Not just by him, by the whole team. They get to a finals and probably win. But they didn't.

[B]

The only thing he didn't have was a bonafide franchise guy that was on an equal playing field as he was. Right. But he probably had.

[A]

Once he left the Thunder.

[B]

You said he had a better. You said he had a better. A just as good.

[A]

It was a well constructed cast. It was a way which you would put up.

[B]

But he also ran up against.

[A]

But when you're that dude, they run up against you, not vice versa. You know, everyone can cry. Well, oh, this one would have won a championship if not for Jordan. Yeah, you know who doesn't have to say that? Jordan. Because he's that dude. So if James Harden is like that, then they would have won championship.

[B]

Yeah, but he ran against some dudes too. And. And here's another thing. I.

[A]

Not really.

[B]

Here's another thing. What? Who you mean not really? Bird.

[A]

Mj. As soon as he had one other. And Isaiah Thomas, as soon as MJ had a single other all star, he smoked the league. Every time he smoked the league. There was no. There was no one in his way.

[B]

So in 1989, he had no all star. Oh, oh.

[A]

When they played the Pistons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pippen had a migraine. Game seven, he was pre prime. He was on the way up. He made an all star team. But pre prime, he had a migraine, scored two points. In other words, Pippen wasn't an all star in Game 7. So they lost to the back to back champs.

[B]

So what you're saying.

[A]

And otherwise smoke the league and not.

[B]

We spent too much time on Michael Jordan. So I don't want to make this about Michael Jordan, but being named an all Star and having all star play is two different things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, so you can't say that people don't have all star play just because they wasn't named the All Star.

[A]

Yeah, but he didn't have All Stars.

[B]

Because we're looking at.

[A]

But Drew. But MJ didn't have All Star.

[B]

Might not be a name to All Star this year. Whoop dee doo.

[A]

But just for the record, MJ had no one. You would look and say, oh, that's an all Star or All Star fans.

[B]

I don't want to do any more. MJ Harden did.

[A]

Harden did. And the reason he didn't win championships is because of what we're seeing in Luca. The offensive style of play does not get everyone involved. But you can live with it because he's an offensive juggernaut. But when you combine that with no effort on defense. And by the way, I got to say this, Harden put more effort on defense than Luka.

[B]

We have to move on because that's just an unfair take.

[A]

What?

[B]

That's just an unfair take.

[A]

What's unfair?

[B]

You just said he. It was so unfair. I don't even remember what you said.

[A]

Yeah, let's just move on. Miami Ole Miss, you asking me to pick tomorrow night, who you got?

[B]

Well, I want. In this case. I mean, they beat my Buckeyes. I got to roll with Miami.

[A]

You know what's crazy about this game for me? Bill Simmons was talking about, he had a really interesting take on Tommy Hearns, the fighter, all time great fighter who lost in his two biggest fights to Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler, but two of the greatest fights, literally of all time. And then he drew with Leonard in a rematch. He should have won it, but he got a draw. Simmons said Tommy Hearns is the other guy in the movie. He's like the best other guy in the movie of all time. And to me, what that means is the other guy. The story is only as interesting as the characters are interesting. And the hero, who in this case, let's say is Sugar Ray Leonard, is more interesting when the obstacle in front of him is bigger. So the other guy has to be, like, impossible. Right? What's LeBron James Greatest Story 2016? Because the other guy was the biggest juggernaut ever. The 73 win Warriors. So when the hero overcomes that, oh my God, what a story. And that's what made Tommy Hearns like the greatest other guy ever. Because, oh my God, how do you beat that guy? Miami and Ole Miss is not like the hero versus the other guy. It's like two other guys. No, two heroes. They're both the team of destiny. Miami, the way they played Ohio State looked like a team of destiny to me.

[B]

I agree with that.

[A]

And Ole Miss, the way they played Georgia looked like a team of destiny.

[B]

The thing that impresses me most about Ole Miss is they're not letting the distraction of losing their head coach be an excuse.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They're stepping up, no doubt. And they're playing even better. So I think they're using that as fuel. One thing I wanted to make when we were talking about the Trae Young piece, also something I left out also, you got to keep in mind, small guards today we're at this space where, you know, you have to be really. And Kevin Durant said this this summer, but it's always been true. There's never been a time really that you ever won with the smallest player being your best player outside of Steph. Well, that just happened.

[A]

But also Steph, I'll put it another.

[B]

Way, but before that it was Isaiah Thomas. Well, you could argue, and he's on a planet of his own as a.

[A]

Yeah, you could argue Jerry west back in the day, considering where Wilt was in his career and all that.

[B]

But what do you mean? How tall is Jerry West?

[A]

But I'm saying his the best player.

[B]

Oh, oh.

[A]

He's not the smallest, but he's the smallest among the stars.

[B]

No, I'm talking about height.

[A]

Okay. The smallest. Right. Jalen Brunson should not be your best player if you want to win a championship.

[B]

It's very different.

[A]

I would put it a different way. I would say there's a cutoff of around 6:3. At which point if your best player is not at least 6:3, you could have a problem if you're 6. The only guy who ever did it is Isaiah. Isaiah's the only one and he did it twice.

[B]

But what I'm saying, even if you are 6 2ish, then there's a lot. You have to be special. And, and, and when I say special is special in a lot of different ways. Special in getting guys involved, especially when in timely shots, you know. Cause those guys are going to get put in every ball screen today. Today, those guys are going to get put in every ball screen. So you know, that's coming, which is fine. And no one's saying that you have to be able to just be a lockdown defender at that size. But what we're asking you to do is you got to fight through screens. You just got to make. You're not stopping nobody in the NBA anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But you just got to make it.

[A]

Especially if you get the gather step. Two more steps, you jump back a hop, a jump.

[B]

The other thing is, normally you go from getting very few guys, get rookie deal, max, max, max, max. Right. Getting two, three, four max deals. That is a very, very, very tough thing to do. But what I will say is, when you're landing, when you're coming from a max and you still have production value, you land at 35, 40.

[A]

Yeah. It's a good neighborhood.

[B]

Unbelievable neighborhood. So if we can help. And this matters because our industry, the environment around these players, we have to help them help themselves. Because entitlement and ego sometimes stunts your growth, and a lot of times, it starts to stunt your ability to, you know, to your earning potential. Like you.

[A]

You're speaking of Trae Young now.

[B]

Well, yeah, I'm speaking of Trey on the. Trey.

[A]

Using him as an example of this theme. Yeah.

[B]

Like, my thing with Trey is, man, look, put blinders on, bro. Whatever's gonna happen's gonna happen.

[A]

So you needed to end the show with this message to. To Trey.

[B]

Yeah. Put blinders on. Whatever's going to happen is going to happen. You know, you have value on, you know, what you were born to do. Play basketball. Can't be distracted by things. But more importantly, when you're in this position, it's called career earnings for a reason. Add it all up at the end. That's how I look at it.

[A]

Saying he'll extend his career as a money maker if he accepts a role as something less than the engine of a team.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

The way de' Aaron Fox did and De' Aon got ahead of it.

[B]

De' Aaron happened to get a max again. But what I'm saying is, going forward.

[A]

Everyone will figure it out, and they'll have a. If everyone stays healthy, they'll have a great time. And at the end of the day, he'll play forever and make a. Make tons of money.

[B]

Yes. That should be the holistic focus. Absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

I think Miami. I didn't make a pick.

[B]

Sound like you were going with Ole Miss.

[A]

I'll take Ole Miss.

[B]

Just to be different.

[A]

I just want to say the name Trinidad Chambliss a little more. One of the. I Think that's the most fun name to say in sports right now?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It combines Felix Trinidad and Chris Chambliss. If you're a Yankees and a boxing fan, you'll love it.

[B]

Trinidad Church. Oh, by the way, Kiff sent me the Yankee Wallabies. Oh, oh, oh, my man Ronnie Fee.

[A]

Send him the Yankees wallabies.

[B]

They're tough like the Yankees. They're tough.

[A]

Yeah, I can imagine they're tough.

[B]

Yeah. I'm gonna put them together for you. Oh, don't worry.

[A]

Much obliged.

[B]

Nice sweater, though, Max. Thank you.

[A]

Nice sweater.

[B]

Look good today, guys.

[A]

Game over. Max Kellerman. Rich Paul.

[B]

Please subscribe and please give us some insight. Do you like the whiteboard? Do you not like the whiteboard? I know you don't like Max. Keep talking about the Giants. But I'm stuck with that. We're stuck with that.

[A]

There's nothing I can help you there.

[B]

It's okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we will see, by the way, the whole college football coming up on Friday. We gotta. We're gonna have to go over Ole Miss and Miami and we got the NFL playoffs, the playoff start a lot coming up on Friday's show.

[B]

There's no playoff game on Friday though, right? Cause I want to be able to do our picks. Yeah, okay, good.

[A]

Well, no, not before Friday. It's not going to be before Friday. That's what I'm saying.

[B]

I mean, I see the game on Monday. It's a playoff game on Monday.

[A]

I know.

[B]

You don't know what the NFL is going to do. They own every week of the week. I don't know what they're going to do.

[A]

Okay, little bonus topic at the very end. I can't take the way to watch a game. I have 11 subscriptions, 15 passwords, different devices.

[B]

I can't take it anymore. It's better for you now because I think all these games are on martial.

[A]

Like to get the Lakers. Impossible to get Lakers games in la. You need Spectrum because if it's out of market and you have YouTube TV and this and that and. But you need Spectrum TV. I can't take it.

[B]

Max. I think you're fine.

[A]

Game over. Max Kellerman, Rich Poll. See you on Friday.

[B]

See you on Friday, guys.

[A]

Must be 21 and over in present and select states for Kansas, an affiliation with the Kansas Stark Casino or 18 and over in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com call 1-888-7897-777 or visit ccpg.org chat in Connecticut or visit mdg.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New.