Wild NBA Conference Finals Game 1s, and Three Future Stars of the League | Game Over

Summary

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Game Over with Max Kellerman & Rich Paul

Episode: Wild NBA Conference Finals Game 1s, and Three Future Stars of the League
Date: May 20, 2026
Host: The Ringer

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Episode Overview

This episode features Max Kellerman and Rich Paul in the wake of dramatic NBA Conference Finals Game 1s—highlighting the Knicks’ historic comeback against the Cavs and a high-level showdown between the Spurs and Thunder. The duo dives deep into the impact of rest versus rhythm in the playoffs, the meteoric rise of Victor Wembanyama, and the mentalities that set today's winning teams (and players) apart.
In the second half, three top NBA draft prospects—Braden Burries, Caleb Wilson, and Koa Peat—join the show to discuss their journeys, NIL experiences, high-character recruitment, and what truly matters as they approach the next stage of their careers. The show is packed with high-level basketball analysis, candid player reflections, and engaging discussion about the evolving culture of the NBA.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

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Knicks Historic Comeback vs. Cavs: Rest vs. Rhythm

[04:32–13:08]

• Max’s Emotional Ride: Max shares the real-time disbelief in watching the Knicks storm back from a 22-point deficit late in the 4th, ultimately outscoring the Cavs by 33 over the last 7 minutes plus overtime.

  • “By the time I take the elevator up here, Dean’s in the room... he cut the TV off. I'm like, hold on. Let's turn the game on. And...they're going to overtime.... By the time you blinked, the Knicks win by 11. They had a 33 point turnaround.” — Max [05:55]

• Rest vs. Rhythm: Rich argues that the downside of a playoff sweep is the loss of rhythm, even as it offers rest for injured players.

  • “The curse about sweeping a team is... you got so many games off, you lag time.” — Rich [06:14]

• Critical Takeaways:

  • Knicks were "2 for 19 from three at one point," yet came back.
  • Cavs’ lack of a defensive answer for Jalen Brunson highlighted.
  • Morale impact for Cavs is potentially devastating; Rich insists, “You gotta have a short memory in the NBA.” [12:18]

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James Harden, Team Building, and Playoff Pressure

[13:08–17:06]

• Harden Trade Skepticism: Max critiques the Cavs for trading a young star (analogous to Darius Garland) for Harden—questioning if a late-career Harden truly lifts a playoff team.

  • “Bringing James Harden in to try to help you win a championship... It’s like electing Donald Trump to fix your country.” — Max [14:12]

• Rich reminds Max that Harden’s history includes proving doubters wrong after criticism:

  • “Every time you do this, it’s like the player actually hears you.” — Rich [14:57]

• Playoff Psychology:

  • The need for resilience after soul-crushing losses:
    • “This is a great test because the playoffs isn't easy... you can either be deflated or have a resilient mindset and come back from it.” — Rich [17:06]

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Spurs vs. Thunder: Generational Talent and "The Wemby Era"

[19:14–38:59]

• “Best Basketball of My Lifetime”

  • Rich calls the Spurs-Thunder Game 1 “some of the best basketball, period, that I've seen in my lifetime, ever.” [19:14]
  • Both marvel at OKC’s resilience without their starting point guard and closer, and that heavy turnovers didn’t stop them from competing.

• Victor Wembanyama Praise:

  • Both hosts repeatedly anoint Wemby as the best player in basketball, at age 22, and the potential GOAT if he stays healthy.

    • “If Wemby stays healthy, there’s no chance he’s not the GOAT.” — Max [29:59]
    • “He needs to win at the highest level and loves to play.” — Max [22:12]

  • Wemby's performance (e.g., 42 points and 23 rebounds, deep 3s in the clutch) is compared to iconic playoff moments.

    • “That should not be legal...no way you supposed to be that tall with that touch.” — Rich [24:51]

• The Perfect Storm for San Antonio:

  • Spurs have a stacked young core, high organizational stability, and the NBA’s latest transcendent superstar, drawing comparisons to how MJ, LeBron, and Shaq entered the league [31:15].

  • “Wemby is born into a world where he is like MJ, LeBron...It's a perfect storm. If he stays healthy, [he's] going to win a million championships.” — Max [32:13]

• On Wemby's Impact Off the Court:

  • Noted for his media presence, competitiveness, and charisma; “He’s hitting every single [note] for the American sports consumer.” — Max [35:43]

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The Evolution of the Modern Team: Positional Flexibility

[28:00–29:58]

• Spurs and Thunder show modern positional basketball—big wings guarding guards, flexible defenders like Carter Bryant on SGA, and the value of high-IQ, versatile "stars in your role."
• Rich:
  • “When you're building a team today, there’s no more positions.” [28:00]

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Interviews: Three Future Stars — Burries, Wilson, and Peat

[43:10–76:28]

Introductions & Positions

[43:10–44:45]

• Braden Burries: “lead guard,” runs offense, impacts winning beyond scoring.
• Koa Peat: “point forward,” versatile like Draymond/Anunoby.
• Caleb Wilson: “3/4,” does what it takes to win; missed the NCAA tournament due to injury.

Mentality, Sacrifice, and Character

[44:48–54:37]

• On Handling NBA Pressure During College:

  • Braden shared initial anxiety over draft stock before settling into a team-first approach: “I'm trying to get out of here. I'm trying to be one and done...My dad was like, 'You gonna make it to the NBA regardless.'” [45:22]

• Sacrifices for Greatness:

  • All emphasize giving up social life, trusting family guidance, and focusing on development over everything.

    • “If you're not working on the game, you probably sleeping or eating.” — Rich [48:07]

  • Caleb on relationships: “Most relationships that you have are not mutually beneficial when you get to a higher level...you have to really figure out what’s good for you.” [50:16]

  • Drives to outwork competition echo Kobe’s and Ali’s legendary work ethics:

    • “My dad always told me...you sleeping in, somebody’s working.” — Caleb [51:23]

• Navigating Adversity:

  • Wilson on injury: “I just always thought somebody out there was working...I never compare myself to anyone. Comparison is a thief of joy.” [53:04]

NIL and New Pathways to the League

[54:37–56:40]

• NIL opportunities have shifted priorities—some players now see NBA as a “pay cut.”
• Peat: “For me...I wasn’t really focused on whoever was giving me the biggest bag...Some kids need it, some want money, but it’s different for everyone.” [55:43]
• “Your dream isn’t to make it to be a great NIL player. Your dream is to make it to the NBA.” — Rich [54:57]

Clutch Sports Philosophy: High Character > Hype

[61:15–64:10]

• The group discusses choosing Clutch Sports and what makes the relationship special: honesty, accountability, fit, and prioritizing character.

  • “There’s accountability that comes with all of us...There’s an expectation. It was a genuine thing.” — Rich [61:19]

• The prospects emphasize the “family” feel and mutual support—no jealousy over draft spots, just rooting for each other and pushing each other.

  • “It's like a real-life family, you know, being around these guys...” — Koa [63:54]

The Fit Over the Pick

[65:30–71:16]

• All three agree that landing with the right organization is vastly more important than where they are drafted.

  • Quotes:
    • Braden: “For me, it’s the fit. Like, no matter where I go, as long as like the coach trusts me...” [66:19]
    • Caleb: “I’d go 50th if the team fit me, man, that’s really all I care about.” [66:29]

• Wilson: “Playing basketball is...the easiest stuff for me...But I want to go to a team that has great vets, a progressive coach that lets me play and make mistakes, gives me good coaching, and good guys on the team.” [70:25]

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Draft, Series Picks, and Playoff Culture

[72:06–76:28]

• The prospects weigh in on who wins the Conference Finals and the NBA title.
  • General consensus: Spurs favored in the West due to Wemby and depth; Knicks-Cavs seen as likely Knicks’ series, though with diverging picks.
• Caleb on Spurs: “They send their defenders in waves...Spurs have such a deep team.” [74:54]
• Braden picks the Cavs in a surprise but acknowledges the peril of blowing Game 1.

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NBA, Money, and Motivation

[75:35–76:28]

• Discussion of money vs. drive: The guests agree that “if your why is money, you’re done,” and that high-level players have been exposed to money (via NIL or otherwise) and are motivated by greatness, not greed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Rich, On Rest vs. Rhythm:
  “The curse about sweeping a team is... you got so many games off, you lag time.” [06:14]

• Max, On Harden Trade:
  “Bringing James Harden in...is like electing Donald Trump to fix your country.” [14:12]

• On Wembanyama:
  “If Wemby stays healthy, there’s no chance he’s not the GOAT.” — Max [29:59]

• Wemby’s Disposition:
  “He needs to win at the highest level and loves to play at the highest level.” — Max [22:12]

• Player Mentality:
  “Comparison is a thief of joy.” — Caleb Wilson [53:04]
  “Most relationships that you have are not mutually beneficial.” — Caleb Wilson [50:16]

• Draft Priorities:
  “I’d go 50th if the team fits me, man, that’s all I care about.” — Caleb Wilson [66:29]

• On Harden's Place in History:
  “Shooting guard—top 10 shooting guard.” — Rich [78:41]

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Key Timestamps

• [04:32] – Max recounts Knicks’ epic comeback vs. Cavs
• [06:14] – Rich on dangers of playoff sweep-induced rust
• [13:08] – Max’s extended Harden metaphor
• [22:12] – The “need to win v. love to play” Wemby axiom
• [29:59] – Max, “If Wemby stays healthy, he’s the GOAT”
• [43:10] – Intro of Braden Burries, Caleb Wilson, Koa Peat (draft prospects)
• [50:16] – “Most relationships… not mutually beneficial” (Wilson on sacrifices)
• [53:04] – “Comparison is a thief of joy”
• [66:19] – “For me, it’s the fit…” (draft philosophy)
• [72:06] – Prospects give their playoff and Finals picks
• [78:41] – Harden as a top-10 all-time shooting guard

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Tone & Style

• Dynamic, direct, and humorous exchanges—Max’s metaphors, Rich’s measured realism.
• Insider perspective on NBA culture, but always accessible to fans.
• Candid and introspective interviews with draft prospects, mixing insightful basketball talk with conversations about life, character, and values.

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Summary Takeaways

• The Knicks’ and Spurs’ Game 1 wins set new benchmarks in playoff resilience and generational talent.
• The playoffs hinge as much on momentum, team chemistry, and mentality as on talent.
• Wemby is widely heralded as a once-in-a-generation talent, possibly an all-time great if he stays healthy—his presence is reshaping the league’s hierarchy and discussion about greatness.
• The NBA’s next wave of stars (Burries, Wilson, Peat) combine talent with high character, shaped by the demands and opportunities of the NIL era – all emphasize finding the right team culture over draft position, and all have internalized the habits and mindset that lead to lasting success.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode delivers expert basketball insight and future-facing dialogue, combining detailed playoff breakdowns, bold predictions, and an intimate look at what separates mere talent from future greatness. The guest prospects’ openness about sacrifice and priorities, paired with Max and Rich’s seasoned perspective on league trends, makes this a must-listen for fans eager to understand both the present and future of elite basketball.

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Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Look, I love what I do. I highly recommend it. If you can get into this business, it beats working for a living. You watch sports, you talk about them, you debate about them, you give everyone your opinion about them. Right? You're gonna do that anyway, but you get paid for it. It's a good deal. People driven by passion are good for business. It's finding them that's the problem. Luckily, ZipRecruiter can help with that. Try it [e-mail] gameover ZipRecruiter is consistently on it. They have powerful matching tech, and they're frequently rated the number one hiring site based on G2 Plus. They added a new feature that pushes qualified candidates who are most interested in your job to the top of your list. Find candidates who really want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for [e-mail] gameover that's ziprecruiter.com gameover meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Rich, we got a lot to do right now. We got a lot. I am.

[B]

I'm Max. I'm hot, man.

[A]

All right, listen, listen. What the Knicks just did, we're gonna get to that. We gotta react to what. What happened with the spurs and the Cavs yesterday.

[B]

Spurs and Thunder.

[A]

Sorry, spurs and Thunder. Knicks. Yes, spurs and Thunder. And. And. And we have some special guests today.

[B]

Yes, we do. We have special guests.

[A]

We have some of the best college players in the world. They're in the draft. They are. They have a very capable agent.

[B]

Agents. Yes.

[A]

I'm personally associated with the people who represent them.

[B]

Yes, you are.

[A]

So I arranged the whole thing. Did.

[B]

If you want to take the credit, Max, take it. Fine. Let's go.

[A]

I called you up and I said, rich, can you get Caleb Wilson on the show?

[B]

Yes, I can.

[A]

What about co op?

[B]

Yes, I can.

[A]

What about buries? Can you get buries?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

All right, so we have all. So we got to talk to all three of those guys. So we have a lot to do right now. And. And. Okay, game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[B]

Game [e-mail].

[A]

you want to leave an email? We're not going to do emails today or voicemails today, but we are going

[B]

to have a voicemail for.

[A]

For what? What I miss.

[B]

What do you mean? What do you miss? You said you Wanted to have a voicemail for having.

[A]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Oh, hold on, hold on. Not. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You jumped the gun. We have to introduce that later. Okay, we're going to introduce that in a second. Okay. Okay. Okay. 4242-4083-4124-8341. That's the voicemail number.

[B]

You can email us at game [e-mail].

[A]

see, when I say when I do that, it's a very obvious layup. When you do it. I don't know what you're talking about.

[B]

Yeah, just because I'm a genius, I

[A]

see I got to get my game up.

[B]

Get your game up. Next, it's the playoffs. You still in a regular season?

[A]

I'm just. I can't believe what just happened. All right, we're starting the show.

[B]

Yeah. Let's start the show.

[A]

Game over is brought to you by FanDuel Conference Finals are here. Thinking of how it's going to go down. Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. Fanduel is the best place to bet the teams, players and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game 21 and over in select states, 18 and over in D.C. kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-Gambler, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org chatinconnecticut. Rich, I'm watching the game at home. The knicks are down 22 points. I want to say there was like seven minutes and change left in the game. We have to come here tonight and do the show. I'm like, I'm not watching the end of this. I'm gonna drive over.

[B]

I left the office.

[A]

I'm gonna drive over. So I get in the car, walk right outside, get in the car. And my baby daughter calls me facetimes me from New York. And so I'm like, hey, mira, what's going on? We're talking. I'm taking my mind off of it right off the game. Then I'm like, hey, Mira, what's the score and what's the time in the game? She says, there's five, 36 left. Remember, I left at seven minutes. Something. We're talking for a few minutes. She said, there's five minutes, 36 seconds left. It's 93.80. Wait a minute. They cut it from 22 to 13. Okay, Mira, I'm gonna have to call you back.

[B]

Had the game she wanted to talk to.

[A]

Had the game on the radio, but she's also watching it. So she had the game on the radio. By the time I got here, it's 15 minutes later as I'm pulling into the lot, as I'm parking my car into the garage, they're going to overtime. By the time I take the elevator up here, Dean's in the room. He has the. He's so mad that the Knicks were playing bad. He cut the TV off. I'm like, hold on.

[B]

You know how crazy you sound?

[A]

But he's a Knicks fan over here. He's from Cleveland. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

He doesn't.

[A]

He's not a Cavs fan, though. So I'm like, come on, what do we do? Let's turn the game on.

[B]

Actually, he's from Cleveland Heights. They don't have a team.

[A]

So he turned the game on and they'd started overtime. By the time you blinked, the Knicks win. By 11, they were down 22. They had a 33 point turnaround. Seven and change of regulation and overtime.

[B]

You have to win that game that we said it. The thing about sweeping a team, the gift of sweeping a team is you get it over with, no one gets hurt. You out of that series, you can move on to the next series. The curse about sweeping a team is you're dependent of the other series. And if that series goes seven, you got so many games off, you lag time. And we talked about it. Well, you know, OG was injured. Maybe that'll help him get time back. Yes, that's true. So he heals, but you also are like, you need to play rhythm, using a great rhythm, et cetera. So we figured the Knicks would be a little cold, a little off rhythm, a little stale. It's expected. So if you're the Cavs, you're just coming off a seven game series. You go on the road.

[A]

You.

[B]

You beat Detroit on the road after losing a game six that you should have won. And closed at home, you beat Detroit. You feeling good? Excuse me. You roll up into the garden. You up 22.

[A]

Silence. The garden, Silence.

[B]

The Garden.

[A]

It was like a funeral in there.

[B]

You're rolling and as you can see. Look, I don't have a dog in the fight, whichever way, but I am from Cleveland, so it does mean something to. At least no one's picked them in a series. At least you win the game and. And you know, like the whole Goal is to go on the road. And if you win the first game,

[A]

if you're, if you.

[B]

Now you get greedy.

[A]

So, so there's.

[B]

The goal is to split on the

[A]

road, but if you just said win

[B]

the first game, you get greedy.

[A]

What you just said is exactly right. The Knicks. First of all, the Knicks were a team that, starting in, halfway through that Atlanta series, started playing easily the best basketball in the Eastern Conference.

[B]

Yes, they did.

[A]

They and the Oklahoma City Thunder are the two teams playing the most like cohesive teams. The Knicks on both sides of the ball are top two or three on offense and defense. Right. And it's not because of any one player, even though obviously the engine is Brunson. And Cat is playing like Jokic all of a sudden. Right. Like in terms of the passing and everything. And he, and he's an even better shooter. But they're doing it because of real team play and team chemistry. And they had a rhythm starting in that Atlanta series. So halfway through the Atlanta series, they're setting records for, on both ends of the floor. They're beating Atlanta by like 60 points. You know, it's crazy. And, and they keep that momentum and they keep crushing Atlanta. And then through the Philly series, they start to catch fire again. It's like, oh my God, this team is a juggernaut. But it's. A lot of. It's based on rhythm and timing and cohesive play on both sides of the floor. The worst thing that could happen for

[B]

that team is to get a break,

[A]

is to get a nine day break.

[B]

You need like a nine minute break, right?

[A]

It's good because of O.G. you're right, because he could heal up. But in terms, But I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the long run, but for game one at home, if you're the Cavs, who are exhausted after a long series and a close series and you have a 22 point lead, you must win that game. They might get swept.

[B]

Now, Rich, The Knicks were 2 for 19 from the three point line. I don't know what they ended with stat wise, right? But I know at one point in the game, maybe halftime, they were 2 for 19. You have to win that game.

[A]

Then you know what happened and you

[B]

know what, you know who can't beat you?

[A]

Jalen Brunson. But this is the thing, we talked about it before the series. So, so Detroit, game one. In order for this to be a series, I mean, Detroit, Cleveland has to get game one if they have a lead because they immediately get a split on the road, we have a series. The fact that the Knicks came back like that against an exhausted team who then had to play in overtime, Right. The Cleveland is toast in this series right now. They're toast in this series. They have no one to guard. Brunson, we said it before the series started. They need a Mikhail Bridges at least. They need at least a perimeter defender type, a guy who can, like. At least you can throw it. Brunson. They don't have anybody.

[B]

You have to double. I don't care. You have to double. You have to double. Brunson. Get the ball out of his hands. Deny it back. Yes, they got the switch. And you really can't switch everything in that situation.

[C]

Right?

[B]

But as much as it was about him down the stretch, you also gotta execute and score. You up 22, man. 22, man.

[A]

They were fouling Mitch Robinson all game. He was missing free throws.

[B]

Everything was working.

[A]

Everything was working for him. Donovan Mitchell was getting downhill.

[B]

And look, you know, they want to win the game, so. But it's just. I don't know, man. I'm speaking from a place of. I know how much it means to

[A]

the city of Cleveland.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Not as much as to the city of New York. Cleveland, that is one recently. I'll be 53 in August. I was born in 73. Yes, the Knicks won in 73, but in January. I've lived over a half a century. I've not been alive for the Knicks championship.

[B]

Well, let me be clear. The Knicks in the finals is so great for the NBA. I mean, it is fantastic for the NBA. But with that being said, the Cavs have to win this game. That's just the bottom line. They have to win.

[A]

It's not only so. It's strategically, it's bad for the Cavs because they're exhausted now. They just played in overtime and they didn't get the win. And the Knicks are rested and OG is going to right the whole thing. But then in terms of like the morale.

[B]

Well, that's the key. Devastating series not over, Max.

[A]

Yeah, but they're losing game two. Cavs losing game two.

[B]

Series is not over. From.

[A]

If the Cavs take this six games, it'll be a miracle.

[B]

Listen, from a morale perspective, if you can climb back up that morale mountain and tie this series going back to Cleveland, what that means for this series, if you can show that resilience and you know, because you just have to. Short memory in the NBA. Short memory.

[A]

Well, luckily they have James Harden, so here we go.

[B]

It ha. It happened. It's over with Rich.

[A]

I like James Harden. I want him like, I don't know James Harden, but I mean, I've talked to him once or twice, probably on an interview or something, on radio or something. But I don't know him. I know people who know him and really like him.

[B]

I know him very well.

[A]

And you're one of those people I know who know him and like him. So I don't want this to be the case. Trading a young point guard who is a pick and roll stud for James Harden, who's 10 years older and does the same sort of thing in that way. Right. To bring James Harden in. If you're. Because you're trying to win a championship, this is what we get. 424-240-8341 what's the email? Gameoverspotify.com Send us a voicemail or email. Here's the question. Bringing James Harden in to try to help you win a championship, right? Like you're already a playoff team. You're bringing them in because you need to get over the top in the playoffs is like what it's like. It's like, it's like.

[B]

Now, wait a minute.

[A]

Max. New Edition. Replacing Bobby Brown with Mike Tyson.

[B]

Max, It's. Max.

[A]

It's like, it's like electing Donald Trump to fix your country.

[B]

You can't. You can't.

[A]

What's it like?

[B]

Max, Max, that's. You know what? I'm not, I'm not even participating.

[A]

What's it like? No, but explain what voicemail or email bringing James Harden in. You make the trade, you're like, okay, we're a playoff team and we might make a run. What is it? We need to get over the top in the moment of truth. I got it. James Harden and everyone around the table's like, I love it. How can we get him? Do we have any good young asset? Well, we have this Darius Garland.

[B]

He.

[A]

He's really good. He's 10 years younger and he's exactly what you need for a guy like Evan Mobley to keep developing. It's worth it. Let's go get Harden. He'll get us over the top in the playoffs. Come on.

[B]

You know what's going to happen?

[A]

Huh?

[B]

You'll have 50 next game. Because every time you do this, it's like the player actually hears you. It's like you picked up the phone and called their number.

[A]

I hope he does. You know why? It's not like it's growing up a Knicks fan. Whatever. I don't want James Harden's career to end and he. And, and people are telling jokes like that. I really don't. I mean, I got to tell the joke because right now that's where we are. But I hope it doesn't end up like that. I hope so.

[D]

I hope.

[B]

But why are you blaming James Harden?

[A]

Was he.

[B]

The team was up 22.

[A]

Was he good tonight with the game on the line like he's.

[B]

But listen, can the Cavs win game two? I think they can.

[A]

I don't know if they're going to get a game in this series. You think it's a sweep there?

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's.

[B]

They're winning one at home.

[A]

Come on. I would. I said, I said it's like a six game series before the five or six. Nixon, five or six figure six. The way they lost that Rich.

[B]

It is demoral.

[A]

If they get a win in this series, I'll be like, look at that.

[B]

You know what? As much as I want to sit here, and then also what you said before, I can't lie.

[A]

We were talking, we were emphasizing it before the series started. They don't have an answer for. Who are they going to throw at Harden? Who are you going to throw at him?

[B]

I thought Dean Wade. I mean that's, that's a big body to.

[A]

What you need is D. Wade right now. Forget about Dean Wade.

[B]

Yeah, well, yeah, no, you need flash.

[A]

You need flash. Yeah. I mean. And by the way, Donovan Mitchell is showing me stuff offensively.

[B]

Donovan Mitchell played well. Donovan Mitchell played really well.

[A]

He's showing me stuff offensively.

[B]

But see, that's what hurts the most because as a team, they were playing really well.

[A]

They were. They were playing really well moving the ball and.

[B]

But you know what?

[A]

Playing defense. You know what?

[B]

Cavs. And again, I don't have a dog in the fight, but I am from Cleveland and you cannot get deflated. I've been a part of a lot of playoff series.

[A]

Well, again, luckily they have James Harden, so they'll.

[B]

You're close to it, but you just can't. Things like this, Max, just gotta put it behind you. This. You know what? This is a great test. This is a great test because the playoffs isn't easy. Things happen in the playoff series where you can either go home and just totally be deflated or you can have a resilient mindset and come back from it.

[A]

But this, but also, this is why

[B]

the games are played.

[A]

Let's also keep in mind the Knicks are winning. Like if the Knicks even put up a really good fight in the Finals. Because they're getting to the finals. If they put up, people will remember this team, this playoff run, because they're not just beating teams, they're beating the brakes off of teams. Starting in the middle of the Atlanta Series, they started setting records for both ends of the breaks.

[B]

Today. It was not beating breaks, but actually

[A]

the last seven minutes of regulation and overtime, they were plus 33.

[B]

They're capable of just a bad time to go cold.

[A]

But. But also, they only were. They only weren't playing well because they were rust. Like, we know that. Like this. This Knicks team is a juggernaut.

[B]

It took them. It took them three and a half quarters to really.

[A]

Yeah. To shake the rust. And then they were plus 33 in, like, 12 minutes of game time.

[B]

But if you. The Cavs, do you feel like we should have won that game? We can beat this team. Do you still feel that way?

[A]

I think the Cavs might consider not playing basketball anymore. Do you know John McKay? His team was on some historic losing.

[D]

26 losses in a row.

[A]

26 losses in a row.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And they asked him at a press conference, what do you think about your team's execution? And he said, I'm in favor of it.

[B]

They. They showed on the black quarterback, Doc.

[A]

Yes, that's a famous line. Yes, I'm in favor of it.

[B]

Max.

[A]

That's the Cavs, right?

[B]

Max, can we move on, please?

[A]

Yes, yes. Because by the way, as. As hype as this game was,

[B]

that was rich. No, no, no, Max. That was some of the best basketball, period, that I've seen in my lifetime, ever.

[A]

Both teams, ever in my life. OkC. And you know what I said? San Antonio.

[B]

And you know what I said last night? It's okay. I hope the rest of the league is watching this. And I hope this attitude of, you know what, we can just wait till next year. No, you cannot. No, you cannot.

[A]

It's too late now.

[B]

No, you cannot.

[A]

By the way. It's too late now. You could do whatever you want. You ain't these guys.

[B]

When I saw those young guys, I mean, we talked about Jalen Williams. He came back from a hamstring and was at a ham sandwich. He was like Caruso turned into. I mean, what was going on?

[A]

Thunder, at times in that game against the spurs were playing as well as a team could play as well. No fans of the floor. They were playing so well, and it was like they would take a little lead, and the spurs weren't going anywhere. And this is what's scary, but we're gonna get to Wemby in a second. Cause that's really the headline. This is what's scary. Because they didn't have Fox.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Castle and Harper don't even know what they're doing yet. They're this can't shoot yet. And they don't even know what they're doing yet. They're turning the ball over and they're still killing you.

[B]

Castle had 11 turnovers. 11 turnovers and it didn't matter.

[A]

You didn't have your starting point guard and your closer.

[B]

I'm just saying it didn't matter.

[A]

And you're playing the best team. You're playing the defending champions who couldn't be playing any better.

[B]

You know What? He had 11 turnovers. And if I was Rich Johnson instead of Mitch Johnson, I would have said nothing to him about those turnovers.

[A]

What could you do?

[B]

Guess what? I don't care.

[A]

Also, he couldn't hit a shot. And neither could Harper hit a shot. And it didn't matter.

[B]

Effort and the resilience that they played with down the stretch. Both teams. Because Shady didn't have the best game.

[A]

Well, okay, so he had the best game.

[B]

But down the stretch, he made play after play. The left hand layup, the right hand layup.

[A]

He had a couple of good plays. At the end of the day.

[B]

Yes. Jalen Williams, Caruso had 27.

[A]

Caruso was an animal.

[B]

He was 6 for 10 at one point. Right? 6 for 10. Then you talk about Harper. Hold on.

[A]

We gotta hold on, hold on. Rich, Rich, let's stop beating around the bush.

[B]

No, no, no. Because I want to tee Wemby up. We know Wemby is world.

[A]

No, Wemby. Wemby, as I said since the middle of the season. You said it is the best.

[B]

I hate to say you said it.

[A]

Max is the best player in basketball. He is. When we have the. When we. When we're starting to bring up, does this player want to win or love to play? Wemby is.

[B]

No, no, no, no. You're saying it wrong. Max, get it wrong.

[A]

Need to win.

[B]

Yes. Love to play it one more time for me.

[A]

Does this player need to win or love to play? Okay, okay. Wemby needs to win at the highest level and loves to play at the highest level.

[B]

Yes, he does.

[A]

It's both. I. First of all, I want to start with the non basketball stuff. He's asked at the press conference after the game if the SGA ceremony where he gets the mvp, if it pissed him off, basically, if it motivated. Yes. And he said instead, you're thinking. You're saying, well, I don't really think about that. He looked at the reporter and said everything you just said. He kept it a buck. How about the pose? He did some in front of his own bench after the game.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And. And. And the bench is looking at him. The whole spurs team, which is loaded, is looking at him in awe and wonder.

[B]

I want to go to Wemby's neighborhood. This dude I need to see. I need to go to his neighborhood.

[A]

But can we.

[B]

Because what. Something is. I need to go and see Rich.

[A]

Rich. Here's what's scary about Wemby. This is what's scary about him. There's so much to talk about there. You know what he doesn't do? He can't post up Caruso yet. Wemby is a baby. He's 22. He. He's seven foot five and can't post up a guy who's not even six and a half feet tall.

[B]

Guess what? Hell with posting that when you can pull up from 28.

[A]

My point is. My point is, when he gets that, it's. If he stays healthy. Pack it up, everybody. The time to win the championship was try to load up this year and do something. If Wemby stays healthy, no one is winning anything forever.

[B]

Max, it's a long series.

[A]

Stop playing basketball. The NBA is over. No, Max, you got to the final level. This is the final boss. You won the game. Game over. He's Bruce Lee at the head of the dragon. He's at the top level.

[B]

You know what?

[D]

He should.

[B]

His uniform should be.

[A]

And he's cream. He's going to kick you down the stairs.

[B]

His uniform should be yellow. Yeah, like Bruce Lee's.

[A]

Like Bruce Lee.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Here's the thing. When this man pulled up from 28, it's 33 seconds to go on the game clock, right?

[A]

What was the score? They were down three. They were down three.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he adjusts and he's at 40 and 20.

[B]

Well, Shay went early for the two for one, right? Wemby comes back and pulls up and Jamal Crawford said it last night from the same place that Steph pulled up at 7 5. That should not be legal.

[A]

Longest shot he's ever made in his career, by the way.

[B]

In that moment, I don't care what anybody says. And I talk to my man Dave Telleb about this all the time. And Brian Wright, who leads the spurs front office. There's no way you supposed to be that tall with that touch. It just doesn't make sense.

[A]

Rich, in these playoffs, he's had a game with 11 blocks.

[B]

No, he has.

[A]

The man had 11.

[B]

Two and 23.

[A]

He had four. He. And by the way, he dominated that game. He had a Jackie Robinson to the floor. He had a Jackie Levinson. In the moment of truth.

[B]

He had a Jackie Jordan. A Jackie LeBron. Yeah. 42 and 23.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

If you would have told me, I would have said, max.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You lying. 42 and 23.

[A]

Yeah. Mariano Rivera, Michael Jordan, Jackie James. Listen, but here's what's crazy. That's good.

[B]

Jackie James,

[A]

by the way, you know what? That. Yeah, that's the Jackie James.

[B]

That's the Jackie James game.

[A]

That shot is like. It's. So when. Let's talk about iconic shots in the NBA. What's the first one that comes to mind ever?

[B]

The first one ever?

[A]

Yeah. Like. Like, what's the top shot that comes to mind?

[B]

Iconic, probably Jordan against elo.

[A]

Jordan against elo. Jordan. By the way, Jordan in North Carolina.

[B]

Jordan against North Carolina.

[A]

Steph pulled up from the same spot. You mentioned it. Yeah. Magic Johnson. Sky hook or baby hook? The baby hook. I'm talking about Magic. Magic in the Finals. This isn't the finals. But hold on. This is the Finals. I've been talking about how the Knicks would have a puncher's chance against the spurs because of the way they match up, but this is like when the Rams played the Seahawks. That's really the super bowl, because the Patriots, Broncos, they're not going to win. That's the Western Conference.

[B]

Be careful. Max, you said it before, and they crushed you when you said that. You said that about the Patriots.

[A]

And what happened, though.

[B]

Yeah, they lost.

[A]

They could crush me all they want. In the end. They got crushed. Right. Like, I mean, but so it's not the Finals. Technically, it's the Finals. And this dude has a shot like that. What are the most iconic shots in the history of basketball? Rich. This is already one of them. This is already. The kid is 22 years old.

[B]

Max, I know you didn't notice this because you're not really a basketball genius like I am. You did not notice this. They brought in Carter Bryant to play defense on Shay. Think about the versatility. And we got these young guys coming on, and all three of these guys could be in this position because they have the size.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

When you're.

[A]

By the way, we have. Stay tuned. KOA Pete, Caleb Wilson, Brady Burry.

[B]

Yes, they will be on the show.

[A]

They're going to be with us in a minute.

[B]

Max, when you're building a team today. There is no more positions.

[A]

Right? Because the ask co op. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You wouldn't even think to think that Carter Bryant, who doesn't. I mean, he's played spot here and there, whatever, he's a rookie, et cetera. But they throw him in the game to guard Shay. And when you talk about the effort that he was making guarding, he's 6, 9, 6, 10. There's no like, who cares if you can shoot, if you can give an effort to play. And you can play that star. Justin, I just want you to. For this movie. We want you to play that cowboy in this movie. That's it. Those are the type of guys.

[A]

Well, this is the other thing about the Spurs. It's a perfect storm. Wemb. So MJ's career happens after MJ. Kobe showed up. Can he be greater than MJ Hard because it's the same style and he got close. Not quite the next guy to show up. Like, can he be. Is LeBron? We can debate that another time. I feel like he got also close, closer even than Kobe. Wemby is the. And I got to say this, Shaq too. Shaq was like, could he be the greatest of all time? Shaq was not as dedicated to the game. Shaq loved to play, but didn't need to win on the level Kobe did. Right. Shaq loved to play, but his need to win was not as strong as Kobe's. Kobe's needed to win. A Shaq could probably tell you that. So those are the players that have come along, really, Shaq and LeBron. Because Kobe was too similar to MJ. You could see Shaq and LeBron were like, could they be the goat? Could they supplant MJ as the goat? Now it's Wemby. And I gotta say this. He is on a trajectory like Wemby might wind up like, if Wemby. Okay, let me say, put it another way. If Wemby stays healthy, there's no chance he's not the go.

[B]

5,000 points.

[A]

There's no chance he's not to go. If he stays, he's going to be the greatest player of all time.

[B]

Max, do you put Wemby in front of Jokic already?

[A]

Of course. I did it in the middle of

[B]

the season, but Jokic has a ring.

[A]

Okay, you're right. If Wemby, like, if Wemby collapses now and an mvp. If Wemby collapses now, then I. Then we're wrong. I just don't see that happening. By the way, Jokic doesn't need to win, doesn't even love to play. He's just a genius. Jokic is a basketball super genius, but he doesn't need to win and doesn't love to play. Right. Neither one. Wemby is Kevin Durant. Doesn't need to win, but loves to play. Take Kevin Durant, same skill set, make him a half a foot taller and make him love to play just as much. But need to win. That's Victor Wembon. Wembon. If he stays healthy, there's not a chance he's going to wind up being the Goat. He's going to wind up being the Goat and it's going to happen fast. Okay? So the reason I bring that up, look at. So we could say, oh, MJ was born into this NBA world. He didn't play with another all Star till Pippen got there. And Doug Collins wasn't Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson was a better coach for MJ. LeBron was born into this NBA world with the Cavs. Come on. They wouldn't even trade JJ Hickson for Amar' E Stoudemire. They weren't giving him a chance. He dragged a team that had no business making a playoff run to the Finals. Right. Wemby is born into a world where he is like MJ LeBron. He's the next one.

[B]

He.

[A]

He's 7 foot 5. He doesn't even know how to play inside yet, which is going to be his strength eventually. And he's on the spurs. And they already have Castle and Harper, and Castle and Harper are like embryos. They don't even. They're not even fetuses yet in the NBA. They're not even born as NBA players yet. They're already this good. And they have all this. And look at the supporting cast. Look at the organization. He is in a. It's a perfect storm. If he stays healthy, going to win a million championships.

[B]

They made Kelvin Johnson made big shots for sale.

[A]

Made. They got the sixth man. They got everything. They got the eighth man.

[B]

De' Aaron didn't play.

[A]

That's what's crazy. Fox is their closer. Fox is their DE.

[B]

They had 20 turnovers.

[A]

Their starting point guard, the guy who's playing, who's on ball instead of Fox, had 11 turnovers.

[B]

You haven't even thought about this.

[A]

They're playing the defending champs.

[B]

This is year two for Rich Johnson

[A]

on the road, like, it's unbelievable.

[B]

This is year two.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For the coach.

[A]

For the coach. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know, Max.

[A]

We let put it this way. We are going to be spending just. Just like a lot of time in San Antonio.

[B]

In San Antonio, the last.

[A]

The last 10 years I was in Cleveland and Golden State a lot.

[B]

We're going to San Antonio a lot.

[A]

We're going to be in San Antonio. I need you to pay for me

[B]

to join a country club in San Antonio.

[A]

If Wemby stays healthy, I will legitimate. My oldest daughter is 17. If Wemby stays healthy, there's no question I will still be going to San Antonio when I have grandchildren. If he stays healthy, he's gonna. There's gonna be a reign of terror in the NBA for 15, 20 years right now. Rich, he is going to evolve. If he stays. That's the big thing with him. He falls too much. Like, that's a long fall on the hard.

[B]

Sounds like the hook on a song.

[A]

If he stays healthy. Yeah, if that happens, Rich, he's going to evolve into a player eventually who gets down low in the post and there's nothing you can do.

[B]

Now here's the thing.

[A]

He can't post up Caruso now.

[B]

It's actually easier to guard him facing up. It's impossible to guard him. If he's ever get to a.

[A]

It's going to be a. It's going to be. He doesn't. He doesn't know what he's doing yet. Bring back neither Harper or Castle. They don't even know what they're doing yet.

[B]

What if he developed the jump hook?

[A]

That's what I'm saying. That's going to be when he. That's 20 years from now. The jump hook is the last thing he's going to develop.

[B]

Not a jump hook. That's a jump. That's a. I don't even know what that is.

[A]

They're going to have to change the rules. They're going to have to change the rules.

[B]

You ain't a 25 point basket like on MTV Jam.

[A]

His jump hook is going to be. It's down. It's going down.

[B]

The rock jock game. This is.

[A]

I mean, listen, it's unbelievable.

[B]

But that basketball last night, Max, I

[A]

must say, next level.

[B]

That is why the NBA is fantastic. Say what you want about the regular season. I don't care what you say about the regular season. When the playoffs get here and you have that type of basketball that we watched last night, everybody's on the edge of their seat. And, man, he also.

[A]

Membi is French, but he speaks English. Almost like his accent's just kind of like a little interesting. It makes what he's saying like A little exotic, but he's not. It's not like you have a hard time understanding him. No, not at all. He has full command of the English language, which is a big thing. Right. It's not like he's one of these Eastern European players. They can barely speak the language. It's not. They're not gonna communicate with the media. As Wemby's media friendly. He's funny. He has a good personality. He's extremely competitive. He does all the things that we want. Like this. This. The. The banana boat crowd that people criticize. LeBron and Carmelo and Wade and all, and Chris Paul and all those guys. Oh, they're too friendly and the like. That's not. Wemby.

[B]

Sounds like you describe in the New Face of the NBA.

[A]

Like, I think Wemby might have, like, a deep dark, like a secret. He's. He's really a super villain behind the scenes. Because no one could be this perfect. Right. There's gotta be some stuff to get something there. There's some, you know, the media. This is what we do. This is a South park about this. We build them up and then we tear them down. Right. Because Wemby is hitting every single for the American sports consumer. He's hitting every single thing. He. He's competitive the way you want. The way he goes at Chet, the way he wants to let Chet know that he owns it.

[B]

Max, they play tomorrow.

[A]

It's unbelievable.

[B]

I'm just saying they play tomorrow. We have young guests coming on that

[A]

we have to get to. You're right. There's a lot of good NBA guys.

[B]

Your Knicks came back from 22 tonight. I am.

[A]

We just witnessed the highest level of basketball that can be played two nights ago.

[B]

I still can't believe the Cavs lost that game. I still can't believe it. I still can't believe what we just watched so much. So we're both driving to the studio. I. I think I'm coming here to talk about the cavs going up 1 0.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I really thought that I'd be here.

[A]

I left the fourth quarter's halfway over there. Down 22. The Knicks are. I'm like, all right, I'm going to drive to the studio. I don't need to see the rest of this.

[B]

Okay. So we got the young men coming on.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Which. Which would be great. Probably funny. It'd be interesting to see your takes. I know you're going to talk about some old basket baseball analogy from 1914.

[A]

Oscar Charleston.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was perhaps the greatest Negro League player that no one knows.

[B]

Players only wore stirrups and whatever the case may be. And then we have. The good thing about the playoffs though, Max, is it's every day.

[A]

It's so good. Especially this time of year. Especially the stakes are so good.

[B]

The conference finals is everyday.

[A]

The level of play, it doesn't make you wait.

[B]

Like a good Netflix series where it's like you can't binge watch it.

[A]

You're binge watching.

[B]

Yeah, we're binge watching.

[A]

Binge watching.

[B]

So tomorrow my schedule is clear. I sit in front of the TV exactly at 2pm the game come on at 5.

[A]

Got to go to San Antonio.

[B]

Yes, we do.

[A]

We gotta go. And by the way, we should.

[B]

And you have to wear a roadrunner outfit.

[A]

And we gotta go to New York and to Cleveland. It's our hometowns, Rich.

[C]

We should go.

[B]

Do you believe that the Cavs can tie the series?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think they're.

[B]

Do you believe that the Thunder could tie the series?

[A]

They could. They could get one at home.

[B]

But will they? Who wins tomorrow?

[A]

I'm gonna save. The Thunder gutted out.

[B]

Or later on today rather, the Thunder gutted out.

[A]

But this series, okay, they. They walked into your house and your guy got mvp and the real MVP of the league. This is, by the way, last thing. The idea that you hand out the MVP before the playoffs are over. See what I mean? Does anyone think that is the best player in basketball?

[B]

They are making a case for your argument. But so we don't go.

[A]

You know what, from now on we need to do is give out awards. The non Wembys. This is the not like. Because no one else going to get. Here's the non Wemby mvp. Here's the non Wemby defensive player of the year. Just give out non Wemby's because this is. We're living in Wemby's world. All these cats are living in Wemby's world. This is Wemby's World.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, that's a good ad for Nike.

[A]

Women's World.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. Okay, so you want to introduce the guests?

[A]

We have a man who Rich Paul has been telling me whenever I bring up Peterson or Debancer or Debonsa or I bring it up Acuff. You're like, Caleb Wilson's the best player in the country. We have Caleb Wilson.

[B]

Stand by that message.

[A]

We have Caleb Wilson. I don't know how Arizona, I mean Michigan was an all time great team actually, but I thought. So was Arizona. I can't Believe the way they lost because co opied buries Pete and they had three other starters on that level. I mean and they had a bench

[B]

one bad game during the. In the.

[A]

In.

[B]

In the tournament.

[A]

Yep. But they were really. And what you have been telling me and I'm very interested in talking to these guys is because behind the scenes Rich and I talk about this stuff and. And you always emphasize high character guys.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That you're interested in at clutch. So I'm interested in talking to these guys.

[B]

Yeah, I think it'll be a great conversation. Obviously you know we're lucky to have them as a company. You know Lucas and team did an unbelievable job and you know they've been in our, our wheelhouse for the last three years. It was the beginning of nil for us. And look, I think when you look at these two series what does it display? It displays that you're going to be called to play a role regardless of what your ranking or what pick you were. And we expect you to play that role. And you know that could lead to you being a star player but it can also lead to you just being a supporting guy any given night and having the willingness and the want and the openness to do those things that lead to team wins are the type of guys that these teams are going to be looking for repeatedly because as you know it's a copycat league. They start to build the teams like the other teams that's having the most success. These guys can fit on any team. I'll just tell you that. So we'll talk to them. You can see for yourself after the interview. You let me know what you think.

[A]

We're getting down to it with the spurs at Thunder and I've got you covered with my picks on FanDuel and all playoffs long. FanDuel has the best same game parlay pricing in the game. So if you're riding with your favorite players, make sure to head to FanDuel. So here's the four leg parlay. Okay. OKC minus six and a half points. They're going to defend home. At least get a split at home SGA to score 30 plus. You know he's going to come back with a vengeance. He's consistent on that 30 points and Wemby's going to score 25 plus Caruso two threes. I'll take the over. That's plus 837. I just got you to the bet will be live in the FanDuel app. Don't forget to check out the great offers they'll have all playoffs as well. FanDuel, play your game. Game over with Max Kellerman and Rich Paul.

[B]

Game [e-mail].

[A]

as you can see, we have three max. Yeah.

[B]

When people want to know why I have a show.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're looking at it.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

Okay. Just so we clear.

[A]

Okay. What? Why Explain.

[B]

I mean, how could you. Look what we have. We have three.

[A]

Three high draft picks. Yes.

[B]

And happen to be our clients. And, you know, we've been knowing these young men for three years now. So I'm just saying, when you think about all the things we talked about. Why do a show? And all the things it meant for me to. Why do a show?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is part of why I do a show.

[A]

Mess around. These guys are gonna start asking you questions. What's going on, guys? First of all, let's introduce everybody.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Go ahead.

[B]

We have Braden Burries, Caleb Wilson, point guard, and Koa Pete perimeter.

[A]

And what would you say? What would you say? What is. How would you describe. What position do you play?

[D]

I feel like I play a lot of positions on the court. I feel like if you had to say something, like, I'd probably say, like a point forward, almost. Like, I feel like I do a lot of things.

[A]

Right. Like a Draymond Anunoby or something like that.

[D]

Yeah, you say that.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

For sure.

[A]

Some playmaking.

[D]

He's a basketball player.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great way to describe it.

[A]

What about you? What position? Because this is like kind of positionless ball. Right. Combo guard, point guard. Like, what would you say?

[C]

I'll say like a lead guard. Somebody who can just like, run the offense, you know, and play off somebody. I also like, bring the ball up the floor.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Kind of just impact winning outside of scoring in so many different ways.

[A]

Right. Because back in the day, they call you a point guard and you.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe a power forward.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And you be a three, probably. Right. Like, was that.

[C]

What.

[A]

What position do you play, Caleb, would you say.

[E]

I'd probably say 3, 4. Honestly, I just feel like I had ability to do so many things on the court, so, you know, I just do what it requires to win. If it's rebounding, if it's scoring, if it's assisting, I just do what it takes.

[A]

Had to kill you to miss this tournament.

[D]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

What was that like?

[E]

It was heartbreaking, honestly. You know, crazy injury, but, you know, I feel like it was good for me, like, looking back on it, you know, I feel like if I would have got injured, I wouldn't have the outlook on basketball and just laughed. What I do today, you know, every day, I'm kind of grateful for the opportunity to play. And I really just wake up every day smiling because I know how fast it could be taken away from you.

[B]

So I'm curious to know, like, obviously all you guys were highly touted, you know, by Arizona and unc. I don't think it gets any bigger in basket, college basketball for sure. But as you go into a college season with the NBA on the back of your. It's always in the back of your head, right? Like, how often after a game did you think about or did it affect you in any way in terms of, damn, did I do something that helped me or hurt me?

[C]

I'll say at the beginning of the year, for me, it was more so, like, yeah, I'm trying to get out of here. I'm trying to be one and done, just putting the pressure on myself. And then, like, I just had to talk to my dad, and he did a great job with me, just knowing that he'd, like, talk to me. He's just like, yo, you gonna make it to the NBA? Regardless whether it take one year, two years, three years, or four years. So, like, don't stress over it. And, like, just. Only time can tell and just let all the cards fall where they go.

[A]

Especially you work on any team. Like, your style of play, you know, just go, right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, given last night, I mean, when you think about the way the game was played last night, all these guys could be on that floor last night because everything was interchangeable. You're switching everything. You have to take the bump on defense. They can't. One thing for sure, they can't hunt Koa.

[A]

No.

[B]

Can't hunt Caleb, and they can't hunt Braylon. Right, Braden? But as you know, it happened like we're watching it. You watched the last two playoff games, was overtime. Games were very physical, as you can see. How much NBA did you guys get to watch in college?

[E]

I mean, for me, personally, I really only watched the playoffs when I watched NBA.

[B]

Only the playoffs? Yeah.

[A]

You and the rest of the country.

[B]

No, but it's a different season.

[C]

Focus on. I was focused on, like, people I was gonna play against. So in college, just focus on college teams, though.

[D]

Okay?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Did you. Okay, wait.

[D]

Let's.

[B]

Let's.

[A]

I got to address this with you two, because I know it must have killed. I think it killed him worse that. That you weren't in the tournament, that maybe he was sick about it, because he. He will not. I Can't say a word about a college player without him saying, Caleb Wilson's the best player in the cut. Like it it. He does not stop right between two. We're on the team. That Arizona team.

[B]

I also picked Arizona to win.

[A]

Listen, one through five, you guys were killing it. That starting five. There was no weakness in the starting five. And you had a seven foot two center who could play right, and you had a bench. What happened against Michigan?

[D]

Tough night, bro.

[C]

Honestly, you go ahead, you got it.

[D]

It came out just blazing hot. You know, I think just their early start, like them hitting all those threes, them getting to the paint and just making shots early hurt us, especially because we was missing a lot of bunnies early. Like, I was 6 for 18. I think Brady was 4 for 16. So, like, when your two best players don't have their best night, it's tough. And our point guard got in foul trouble. So it was just a lot of things that didn't go our way.

[A]

But, you know, especially in the tournament, that can't happen.

[D]

You can't have one bad shooting night. It's not like the playoffs where you could play seven games and the best team's probably gonna win. In college basketball, there's only one game and you gotta come every game ready to play.

[A]

Right? Best team does not. I think in retrospect, Michigan was the best, but a lot of times the tournament best team doesn't. NBA best team always wins, right? Best of seven.

[C]

Yeah. Most of the time I say I kind of learned it. Coach wins you a game, superstars win you a game, and then the role players win you two games. So I think with us was just. We came out flat as a team and in halftime we kind of been more aggressive, but it was kind of too late. And they just couldn't miss transitioning.

[B]

As you guys are now entering the NBA draft, everyone will see you on draft night, right? Get your name called and get drafted. What they won't see is all the sacrifices you had to make prior to, you know, being a young man. Your friends going out. I can't go summers. You don't have a summer. Your summer is committed to basketball. Whether it was a. You travel basketball. If you're not playing the game, you're working on the game. If you're not working on the game, you probably sleeping or eating. So talk about the family dynamic of. I mean, I've seen all you guys and all your families involved. They have great families, by the way, but just the sacrifice that it takes in order to now get to this point, we was in Chicago for the combine, and we talked to those young men from the Swish Foundation. They had, you know, a ton of questions asking you guys about just how to handle it. I want to know, how did you handle just that. That uphill battle of. I had this dream of going to the NBA. I know the work that's ahead of me, I gotta be committed to that work. And then once I started getting ranked, how hard is it to not slack off and not just be complacent with that?

[E]

I mean, I feel like it's. It's definitely a grind, honestly. You know, you have to make sacrifices in so many aspects of your life, like you said, with friends. And then you just have to be more cognizant of what you're. Who you're talking to and who you're around. Honestly. I mean, most relationships that you have are not mutually beneficial when you get to a higher level. So you just kind of have to really figure out, like, what's good for you. And I feel like that's a big thing that, you know, elite athletes have to go through, is just figuring out what's good for them.

[A]

What do you mean by not mutually beneficial?

[E]

I mean, I feel like some relationships, like, people don't have anything to offer. Like a relationship with a friend. If they're going out or if they're doing something, it's not beneficial for you, but it's beneficial for them because their goals aren't kind of in line with yours.

[A]

It's beneficial for them. Meaning. Meaning that's just what they're into, or because they're now attached to you, it opens doors for them and stuff like that.

[E]

I feel like it's a mixture of both, honestly. I mean, of course, being with us, walking into a party or something like that is going to bring you attention, but at the same time, like, sometimes people are really, like, excited to do things that are beneficial for us. Like, I'm sure all of us have friends throughout our life who are like, let's go. Let's go to a house party or something like that. And we got to wake up in the morning to work out. So, like, that's not beneficial for us. So, I mean, I think it's really hard to navigate relationships. I feel like that's the hardest thing to do in order to, like, stay on this path that we're on. And then also, I mean, you can never really get complacent. For me, I just always thought somebody out there was working. I mean, that's what My dad always told me when I was younger, like, you sleeping in, somebody's working.

[A]

It's like that Kobe mentality. Matter of fact, Muhammad Ali used to say that he would get up at 5.

[B]

They don't know who Muhammad Ali is.

[A]

You guys ever heard the name Muhammad Ali? He would, yeah. I mean, but he would get up in the morning and do road work because he thought, frazier's getting up at 6, I'm getting up at 5. Right? Like, you think Kobe talked about that? Like, if I work out three times a day over, you know, five years, catch up, that no one's doing. That's how. That's how you feel?

[E]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's a grind, honestly. I mean, you got to take a lot of sacrifices, and I mean, sacrifice with everything and. But, you know, I feel like it's all worth it in the end. I mean, to have the lifestyle that we have and have the ability to do the things and see the things we're able to see. Like, I definitely wouldn't change it for anything.

[A]

I want to ask you, when you see, like, Wemby the other night, right? Wemby had this attitude, like, chet's on the court. He wants to let him know, you're not on my level. Like, you could see it's on his mind right after the game, he's asked at the press conference, hey, SGA got the mvp. And then you did this. Basically asking him, is that connected somehow, right? And he didn't front. Like, usually a guy like, no, I'm just. He was like, yeah, Everything you just said, right? When you see Peterson, Debance and these other guys. Acuff was getting, like, a lot of press, and you're sidelined, cause of injury. Do you. Does your competitive nature does that? Like, what's that like? Is that something that motivates you, that you want to.

[E]

I mean, I definitely never compare myself to anyone. I feel like comparison is a thief of joy. So, I mean, hanging out with you, me being. Me being injured, it really hurt me. But I was really focused on myself. But, I mean, I have the opportunity to play against everybody that I have the opportunity to play against. So, I mean, for me, it's only maximizing my opportunity when I get the chance to. I mean, I always have the chance to play elite guys, whether it's personal or not. And in all honesty, like, most of my times I'm playing, I really kind of find a reason to be frustrated when I play. Cause it makes me better. But, I mean, I never compare myself to other people, I just really go out there and just want to win. And I mean, for me personally, like, to win, I have to have something that really gets me going. So I always find something.

[A]

So what is that?

[E]

I believe that. I mean, what'd you say?

[C]

I said I believe that.

[E]

For me, I mean, it could be small things. I mean, it could be like something someone said to me or a person said to me a long time ago. It could be like how something made me feel.

[B]

Well, being cut from USA team, that motivated you for sure.

[E]

Yeah, I remember that. I remember that feeling after I got cut from usa. Like I really didn't know. It was a tough feeling because I didn't really know like what it meant to like get cut. Like, it was just an interesting feeling. But all things, I feel like adversity really just brings the best out of you. So, you know, that was, that was great adversity for me to go through because it caused me to work harder. Well, I get so many things that I've gone through in my life that kind of make me have a mindset of like when I get my chance to prove this person wrong or when I have a chance to go get a win or show what I can do, I'm just gonna go do it.

[B]

Now you guys had to the experience of nil at the highest level. All you guys are very high level nil guys. Now you're going into the NBA. Before there was no nil, people rushed to get to the NBA because they needed the money.

[A]

Now it's a pay cut.

[B]

Now in some cases it could be a pay cut, but you know, you have for you guys, your dream isn't to make it to be a great nil player. Your dream is to make it to the NBA. But how much do you think having that opportunity to be a highly paid, I can't even say amateur athlete, I would say semi pro athlete, playing at a high major university. Now having the experience of, you know, going into the NBA. Does it feel like it kind of gave you some type of foundation to understanding, okay, I'm have this money now, but I don't have to focus on that. Still keep my, you know, keep my focus. But at the same time, I also don't have to worry about where my next meal is coming from.

[D]

I think it's different for everyone's situation. Like for me coming into college, like, I wasn't really focused on whoever was giving me the biggest bag, you know what I'm saying? I'm picking based on like where I Can go and develop and, you know, win games, you know, and have a coach that trusts me.

[B]

You won four state championships, so you was always focused on winning.

[D]

But to have a coach and teammates and people around me coming in that, you know, you're gonna get better each and every day. So that was my focus on that. But I feel like it's different for everyone's situation. Cause, like, some kids need it, some kids are gonna come into college and, like, they want that money. You know what I mean? But I think it's different for everyone's situation. But I think it's definitely a good thing, especially for these young athletes now that.

[B]

Well, definitely for people that's not going to be pros, if you can make nil money for free four or five years, that gives you a great head start in life for sure.

[D]

100.

[B]

As long as you're paying your taxes and not buying chrome hearts all the time, like, you could buy it, but don't. Not excessive.

[A]

Caleb said. Comparisons a thief of joy. This is Rich saying that when I brought up, like, OG or Draymond, you didn't shy away from that. And you definitely watching you remind me of those guys, is that it doesn't seem like it's a thief of joy for you to be compared to those guys. Is that what is. Are there? Is that who you're modeling your game after?

[D]

I mean, there's a lot of guys I model my game after and try to take little bits of, like, the bigger, physical players, like you mentioned, you know, OG really like Paulo's game. Just like the bigger, bigger guys that could, you know, handle the ball, get downhill, make their teammates better. But always watching basketball. I'm a basketball head, like Caleb was talking about earlier. Just like, what rich ass he was talking about just like, the sacrifice and all that. And I feel like, obviously it's a lot of sacrifices, but, like, if you really love the game, like, you're gonna enjoy, like, going to those early morning workouts, going to those, you know, late night workouts, and just enjoying the grind. And I know all three of us could attest to that, you know, because you just love the game and just love to play every day. Try to be around as much basketball as you can. You know what I mean?

[B]

How was the combine process for you? Did you feel like going in? One, you were prepared. Two, Once you got there, was it everything you imagined it to be?

[C]

Yeah, I feel like it was great. It was a great experience, you know, once in a lifetime. Like, you guys and Clutch did a great Job with us, Preparing us, you know, Chris, with the workouts and everything, shooting drills and then main thing was the interviews. You know, I feel like I was really prepared. Prepared for, like, when they asked me a question, I was like, I already had the answer. And it was just like, wasn't stressful at all either.

[B]

When you got that. Hold on.

[A]

Why did you guys choose Clutch? Hold on one second. Hold on one second.

[B]

This is not a.

[A]

This is not a. I know, I know. It's not an infomercial, but he brought it up. Yeah, I'm gonna be accused of being. Oh, you're showing the payroll. I'm not on the Clutch payroll, by the way. I should be. Matter of fact, we'll talk about that later. Talk to. But you can ask because you have to choose. Choosing it, you know, is this big thing.

[C]

For me, it was. It was pretty easy. I played with strive for greatness. So LeBron was with clutch, so he kind of, like, steered me in that direction. And then it just all just kind of happened. And then met Lucas. He was a great guy. And then, like, he was real genuine, and he was like a family guy, and I'm a family guy, so it all just kind of, like, worked out.

[A]

Does it mean anything? This is. Now I'm gonna embarrass you a little bit, but whatever. Does it like, Rich is a famous agent, right? There aren't that many famous agents. Actually, you're probably the most famous. I'm trying to think like the first agent I think of in sports. Even if you and I weren't friends, right? If someone were like, the first. Okay, name a sports agent. Scott Boris. I mean, who are we talking about? Probably Rich Paul.

[D]

Yeah. Rich are worldwide, bro. You be in the song. You get a shout outs in every song.

[C]

The thing is, like, with Rich is like, you wouldn't even know he's famous if you didn't know him. Like, he's real humble. He's real, like, down to earth type of guy. So, like, that's what I really appreciate him for.

[A]

But is that a law? Is that something that, like. Yeah, you know, like, does that help him with guys like you? Right? Like, did you think. Let me. Let me ask you, did you think like, oh, Rich Paul wants to sign with me. Oh, shit, I made it kind of thing, you know, does that feel like, you know, am I not being clear what I'm asking or.

[E]

No, I feel you. I mean, for me, I just never feel like I made it, no matter what. I mean, it's cool. Opportunity for sure. But I feel like, like Asian signing you or winning the state championship or anything like that is never like a feeling of satisfaction for me.

[A]

Me personally, I'll tell you my, I'll

[B]

tell you my side.

[A]

Let me tell you something about the way Caleb's answering question questions. There is like sometimes you get athletes who, when they answer questions and you can tell from an early age they have to think about the answer that you might want to hear. And they're, you could see they're uncomfortable in their own skin. And sometimes athletes drank the Kool Aid a long time ago since they're a kid. And they really believe all the things that the fans want to hear from them, but they've internalized it. Like, if you ever hear Kobe talk about winning or they once asked Derek Jeter, what's the one thing that you don't have that you wish you had? And people figured he never won MVP because he already won championships. He said a fifth championship, a fifth. Like that's all he. Because he internalized it. Those are the answers you're giving, right? Like you're giving all the right answers. And it's like you don't even have to think about it because it's coming from you.

[B]

It's authentic.

[A]

Yeah, it's authentic.

[B]

That's. That's how he always. He's been like that forever.

[A]

I'm not saying you guys are not. You are. I just. That answer me.

[B]

I'll give you, I'll give you our side. As you know, Max, like this business is not an easy business, first of all, and especially recruiting these type of guys. But like, you know, Brade mentioned Lucas. Lucas and I been together forever, right? And he's done an unbelievable job. This is our first nil class. It's like literally our first nil class that we really invested in. And I'm talking about the time, right? And I think the one thing that we all have in common, number one, is they know bullshit when they see it. Their families know that when they see it. This was all a genuine thing. It wasn't like it was fabricated. The other thing is we're not going to be for everybody. Like, there's accountability that comes with all of us. There's an expectation that comes with all of us. And there's a. I would say, like he said, it's just a genuine thing. You know it, you feel it, you see it. And I think it was important to all their families that it wasn't a fly by night thing. They were actually being prioritized, right? And so it was a really easy choice for us. And in our situation, they have to choose you. But it's nothing that we ever take for granted, for sure.

[A]

One thing I notice about just talking to you through the years about clients of yours is you are one of the like, some. And teams are like this to focus on high character guys. Yes. You always seem to be interested in the high character.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we talked about it. I mean, you know, Luke and I and the rest and the rest of the basketball group, like, we really talk about these things and how important it is. And these guys come in.

[A]

Did he talk about that with you, Koa? Did he talk about that with you?

[D]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you could tell by like all the people in clutch, like, they only recruit high character guys and guys that are gonna work hard and obviously good Hoopers, but like, I think just, you know, like the type of person you are, I think that is definitely, like, how they're recruiting these kids.

[E]

And I feel like it just makes it so much easier for us to like, we're doing a pre draft process for us in this class. There's only four of us, but every day we come to the gym, we're all smiling, like, we all talk to each other and enjoy spending time with each other. So it just makes it like much more of a family atmosphere instead of like, I don't like this guy or he's not a good person, so I don't feel like I can really communicate and like, enjoy my time with him. But like, every day I walk in the gym and I see these two and I'm like, excited to be there because, like, I know it's gonna be fun. And the gym is always loud and everybody's always talking, so it's nice.

[D]

And it's like a real life family, you know, being around these guys and being around Luke, Rich and like Caleb said, coming in and seeing each other, like, it. It pushes me to be in workouts with Caleb. It pushes me to be in workouts with Braden. Like. Cause they're high level kids and high level character kids. So like playing with them, it helps me.

[B]

You know what? I've never heard one time. Sorry, Koa. I never heard one time there be any type of, you know, like, judgment or competitive, like trying to outdo one another. None of that.

[A]

Wait till they meet each other in the playoffs. That's different.

[B]

That's different.

[A]

But I'm saying you're supposed to do that.

[B]

Yeah, you're supposed to do that. Like, they compete on the court. But what I'm saying is sometimes you have these situations where they're so focused on being the highest pick and I want to be a higher pick than you. No, they're rooting for each other. And I think when you have that in the gym every day you come in, that's important. Like I got there the other day, 7 o' clock in the morning, 7:30 in the morning, they ready to go. It's not like a game, nobody, they have to, they can't even walk. If they walk, they're doing push ups, right? So these things in a pre draft process for us, all we're trying to do is prepare them for where they're going. We're not changing their game. We're not, we're not trying to, you know, make them.

[A]

But you're working on their shooting. Yeah, but these two could work on their shooting a little bit. They're already good. But when the shooting gets good, it's gonna be a problem.

[B]

Everybody needs that, right? Everybody needs shooting, everybody needs development. All these guys here are under construction and that's what they know, that's what makes them so good.

[A]

Does it? When you see the spurs, right, and they have those two guys in the backcourt who are, who like one of the crazy things about that team is those guys are still young. They're just screwed. Scratching the surf. Like they don't even really know what they're doing yet. They're going to be so much better than this. And they're already excellent. Like speaking of shooting, Harper and Castle don't shoot it well yet. And they're still very valuable players.

[B]

Here's the thing. If the last thing you got to work on is that in the NBA, yeah, you're fine. You have all the other, the most important tangible to have is to be coachable. That's number one. Cause once you go wherever you go, you become one of 450. So I asked these guys, what's important to you, the pick or the fit? You go like, what's important for you guys?

[C]

For me it's the fit. Like no matter where I go, as long as like the coach trusts me, he's gonna give me the. Let me go out there and just try to just be me and play hard.

[E]

Caleb, for me it's all fit. I mean I go 50th if the team fit me, man, that's really all I care about.

[D]

Yeah, I think it's fit for sure. And knowing your role, like you're not. You're gonna pick these teams. You Know, they probably already have their best player. You know what I mean? Trying to.

[B]

Bingo Max.

[D]

I'm trying to go into it and, you know, make. Make the better. Make the best player better. And always also had a coach like you. I feel like those are two that you need to like to be able to, like, you don't need the whole, you know, staff to like you. But I'm saying, like, when you're having the best player like you and you're helping them be better on the floor, and then having the coach trust you and like you, that's super important.

[A]

How do you get and co you're that kind of player.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But how do you get that support? By starring your role. Right, right. Because I always. We always talk about this, the idea of starring your role. And again, everybody evolves differently. Year one, you may become that guy for the team, but like you just said, having people block and tackle for you, meaning they say it in corporate America, but having people support you in those rooms, in those coaches meetings that you're not in, comes from a place of you having a willingness to do whatever it takes for the team to win. I don't have to have 30 tonight. I may have 13, but I took that key block or that charge, or I had that key steal or I dived on the four for that 50.

[A]

50 ball winning player.

[B]

Yeah, that don't matter what pick. I was right. And I've seen all you guys sacrifice in that manner. Hell, I know for sure we saw half of what he was capable of doing at North Carolina. Half. Maybe not even half, but yet. And still you saw him when he wasn't playing, cheering his teammates on, changed the whole culture. There wasn't popping. He got it back. Popping. We went to their game, San Diego. You and I went together. I mean, they beat up on my guy, Rod Strickland. That wasn't. I mean, y' all didn't have to do my man Rod like that, but. But nevertheless, you know, we watched and went and watched him play. And Max was like, I don't need to see anymore. Like these guys are.

[A]

Yeah, Arizona was already. Already like, it was you guys in Michigan the whole year when you say the right fit. So I'm not obviously not asking you to name any teams, obviously. But what could you describe what a team that would be? The right fit, Cole, for you would be like, what. What would that team be?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like I fit in with a lot of teams. I mean, I'm not Going to give you any teams, obviously, but, I mean, I feel like you put me out there and I'm always going to impact the game, whether that's rebounding, whether that's, you know, cutting out, whether that's playing defense, you know, just trying to do anything to get me on the floor early and trying to win.

[A]

But if you say the right fit, it means this team, man, if this team had this, that we would be good for each other, right? What is the thing that, that, that you like? Do they need a perimeter defender? Do they need a playmaker? Do they need, you know, what is it that would be the right fit for you?

[D]

I think you just named it. I feel like coming into the league especially early, you know, knowing my game, I feel like I'm going to go out there, I feel like guard one through five, and then also I feel like I can make plays for my teammates. Either if that's scoring or if I see someone else in that gap, I'm gonna kick it out. Like to Braden, like how we played this year, just simple stuff like that. And especially this year, I feel like I really found my role. I mean, I came out early, blazing like 30, 20, 25, 15. And then I started not scoring as much, and I wasn't tripping because we're still winning and I'm still having good games, doing other things to affect the game.

[A]

But you weren't scoring as much because you had a lot of teammates who could also do that. If they needed you to score, you scored.

[D]

I'm saying. Yeah. I think one of my best games this year, though, was against Iowa State Conference Championship. I have four points, but I guarded the best player, Jefferson. I think he was like 2 for 18. And just little things like that, going at him on offense, making them pick up fouls. But that self awareness, that's the difference of winning and just having a good iq.

[A]

Yeah. High IQ players know that. About what's the, what's the fit for you? Like, what is a team looking for to be the right fit for you?

[E]

I mean, for me, I definitely want to go to a team of good vets. I feel like that's really important. I feel like the stuff on the court is the easiest stuff for me. I mean, playing basketball is. I mean, I've been doing it my whole life, so I'm going to definitely figure that out. But I want to go to a team that has great vets, people that I can listen to, and people that give me good advice. I want to go to a team that has A coach that is really progressive in the way that they think, let me go out there, play, make my mistakes, and also, you know, give me good coaching, so. And good constructive criticism so I can be a better player. Then also, I want to go to a team of good guys on the team. I mean, in the NBA. I mean, we're all making a whole bunch of money. So I feel like most people are susceptible to do bad things or do things that were beneficial to being a great player and a great person. So I want to go to a team with a group of good guys so I can kind of have, like, a family atmosphere with the team and also just have fun.

[A]

Do you feel like those answers are perfect?

[B]

Go ahead, Braden. We'll let Braden answer.

[E]

Go ahead.

[C]

He kind of had hit it on the spot. I want to go to a team that, you know, needs a guard, but I want to go to a team where it's a family atmosphere. You know, go in there like you, like. I want to have a mindset where I can't wait to go in the gym, wait to go to practice, to go see the guys. But I also do want to get a great vet. Not saying, like, Timberwood, like, somebody like Mike Conley, who's, like, been there in the league a long time.

[A]

You mean a guy like that on the team?

[C]

Yeah, who can just, like, he's not tripping if he plays or not. He just. He's there to see you do better and stuff like that. And then.

[B]

Done his time already.

[C]

Yeah, he's not tripping about playing minutes. He's the one. He just wants to see the team succeed and see you succeed. And then, obviously, it's just a family atmosphere, you know, somewhere where, like, everybody, like, wants to see each other win just as bad as they want to see you win. So. So that's the main thing.

[B]

We're going to let them get out of here. Max, before you guys go. Before you go. The Western Conference is. Is San Antonio's up one to nothing. They do this every. Every day before before they work out. Anyway, the Knicks just came back on the Cavs. Cavs was up 22. Don't even get me started.

[A]

22.

[B]

But the Knicks just came back. How does the series end for both sides? And who wins the championship? Braden?

[C]

I got the spurs winning, and let's say six. And then I got.

[B]

The Cavs get the Cavs winning.

[C]

I feel like it's gonna be a

[B]

good series after they lost tonight.

[D]

Why'd you say it like that?

[B]

I'm just asking they gonna figure it out. I mean normally when a team.

[C]

I think they gonna figure it out

[B]

normally when a team is up. He did pick him to beat Detroit. But normally when a team is up 22 after a team has been off for as long as the Knicks was,

[A]

they did, you gotta steal that game because they're gonna be rusty.

[B]

If there's a game to steal, that's the game to steal. And you got the game in control of your hands. You and then. But you know what? Hey, I'm from Cleveland, so I appreciate you more power to you.

[C]

They don't get mad.

[B]

Okay, listen, I'm with you, bro.

[A]

He's got a high basketball iq, so I'll take your word for it.

[B]

He does. Oh, you rooting for the Knicks?

[A]

Stop it, man. It's not that. It's that what you said. It is that if you're off, if you're off nine days, you got all that rest. OG is like everyone's healing up. And then on the other hand, you have seven game two, seven game series. They're going to be tired, but if you can catch them back on their heels because they're rusty on the road, you got to steal that game. And then the way they collapsed, I

[B]

don't see them want to be up 14 with five minutes to go. You have to win the game.

[A]

Went to 2 with 7 and change to go in the game and they lost by 11. That's a 33 point swing.

[C]

I do got a question though. If Donovan Mitchell wins a ring for Cleveland, like does that put him up there with Braun for Cleveland?

[B]

No chance. But, but, but what I will say is if he did win a ring for Cleveland, I mean he goes somewhere.

[A]

He like top three.

[B]

Yeah, he don't go up there with LeBron. Obviously that's unfair to Donovan Mitchell, but he goes up there somewhere because that

[A]

team hasn't start comparing him to Dwyane Wade.

[B]

Yeah, he goes somewhere and he deserves it. I mean, look, I, you know, Donovan's a really good player and if he can do that for Cleveland. Absolutely. He doesn't go up there with LeBron, but he definitely goes up there somewhere. Caleb.

[E]

I mean, I feel like on the Western Conference finals, I feel like the spurs got it. I probably.

[B]

Why? What makes you say the spurs, they just match up so well.

[A]

The nine foot alien who play, you

[E]

know, not only that, I mean it's wimby. But also, I mean it's hard. It's hard for Shai playing in a situation like he's playing in. I Mean, they're. I mean, watching the game, they were trapping a half, and then they would switch to zone mid possession. I mean, I feel like the Spurs. I mean, the Thunder probably get two games, but I feel like it's spurs in six in all honesty. I mean, also, I mean, the spurs have such a deep team. Like, they just send their defenders in waves.

[D]

I got some dogs, too, bro. D Hart be playing like he broke. Like, literally.

[E]

I mean, Alex Caruso had 32.

[A]

I mean, at one point, the OKC was playing. They're playing as well as they can, and they couldn't pull away.

[B]

He said that D. Harp is playing like he's broke. Do you guys feel like once guys get in the league, they start to, like, just relax a little bit and, you know, because now you have the money. Like, how hard is that to still have that hunger and that desire to

[A]

play at that level once they get the money? I mean, that's true. They already got money.

[B]

They ain't broke.

[A]

Trust me.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that's why in all the interviews that you'll do and the people that like you, they always ask you, what's your why? I mean, if your why is for money, you're done.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

There's always more money you can get, though. Like, the money they trying. They hand down now, compared to what you got now is like.

[D]

Oh, way bigger.

[B]

Yeah. Telling me. I mean, you know how much Kareem Abdul Jabbar got for going to ucla? Nothing a stands donut, if you believe that. Well, not compared to what they got.

[A]

I mean, Michael Thompson, Clay's daddy, was. Who, by the way, was the number one overall draft pick and was averaging 20 and 12, where he got traded to the Lakers, backed up Kareem one two chips. He wound up in the University of Minnesota.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

He's from the Bahamas. How did he wind up at the University of Minnesota?

[B]

I know how. But it wasn't. It wasn't what's happening today, that's for sure.

[A]

I mean, by a long shot. No, but back in the 70s, man, I wonder what that bag was and

[B]

what these guys was born in. 2007.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You talking about the 70s, that kiss.

[A]

I'm just. No, I'm saying the fact is that Nil's been around and just in a different way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Used to get in trouble for it and now you don't.

[B]

Yeah. Koa.

[D]

It's tough, bro. I mean, I think they both go to seven. I really like the Cavs. I like Harden. I don't Know the OG coming back is different. Like I feel like, I feel like he's going to be the X factor in that series just because his physicality and the way he's been hooping in the playoffs and then the other series is tough too. I like, I'm going to go Thunder though. My boy J Dub, that's my guy. I might have to go Thunder.

[B]

Before you say anything about him saying

[A]

I'm going to wait all the hardened stuff for the, for.

[B]

He's from Arizona, Max, relax, because I saw your hair.

[A]

But. Well, here's the thing. I know, but he's a hard hater too. If you're under 20 years old, like, you don't remember a world where Harden wasn't in the NBA, do you? No. Harden's been around as long as you could remember.

[D]

Change the game, though.

[A]

What's that?

[D]

He changed the game.

[B]

Please.

[A]

He was averaging 40 step backs. I would advise you they was guarding him backwards, bro. Just wait till you leave foul hunting back looking.

[E]

He changed. He did change the game. You probably just don't like. That's what I'm saying. You probably just don't like how he changed the game.

[A]

Yeah, he was one of the people who changed it. He changed the game the way they used him. The, you know, just so you guys know, he hates. No, no, I, I, no, honestly, I, I, I really root for Harden, but this is getting ridiculous at this point.

[C]

So if he gets a ring, like

[A]

I'm rooting for it just. You think he's going to get a ring? I'm just saying, like if he does, he's kind of like he could listen guard.

[B]

I said on this show.

[A]

Yeah, shooting guard.

[B]

Yeah, top 10 shooting guard.

[D]

Of course.

[A]

I think he already. Top 10 shooting guard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I want to make sure. Yeah, but I said if he's really a shooting guard, he's kind of a point guard. Kind of, you know.

[D]

Yeah, I feel like he changed to a point guard.

[E]

That's what I'm saying. That's what's interesting about Harden. I feel like he changed his game depending on who he played with and I feel like that's really hard to do.

[A]

Yeah, he was a six man originally. Really a six man.

[B]

The toughest six years.

[A]

But he was always kind of a point guard. Even though he was called a two

[B]

guard on that team. Yeah, he was.

[D]

He is the system though.

[A]

Yeah, he is. But that system and players like Kobe and guys like that knew it. Right. That system is a dead end. It can get you close, it can get You. It's almost like. It's like a. Sometimes someone can be so good at something that it's actually, like, dangerous because you can get seduced by it and think that that could take you where you want to go, but in the end, not quite over the top. That style of play.

[B]

I mean, Max, we're going to get

[A]

these guys out of here. Let's get to bed.

[B]

I'm gonna tell you something.

[A]

Kids gotta get to bed.

[B]

No, get to bed. If you saw the way they eat. These guys got to eat. It's nine o'. Clock. You told them an hour. They didn't got here at 8. They out of here at 9 having pizza.

[A]

When I got here, they're going to eat again.

[B]

You don't understand what I'm trying to tell you. Go ahead.

[C]

What's like your all time starting five?

[B]

My all time starting five. I think I went through this already.

[A]

I got mine.

[C]

Including a six.

[A]

I'm waiting for you.

[C]

Including a six man and a coach.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Ooh, that's a good. No one ever says that. Six man and a coach.

[B]

Six man and a coach.

[A]

No one ever says that. I know my six.

[B]

I could put anybody at the sixth man. Or it had to be a six man.

[A]

No, that could be anybody.

[C]

It could be anybody.

[D]

Anybody.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Ooh.

[A]

I got the whole.

[B]

I'm going LeBron at the one.

[A]

Correct.

[C]

LeBron at the one.

[D]

That's a good pool.

[B]

Mike at the two.

[A]

No doubt.

[B]

I'm going Kobe at the three. Well, I don't know if I could put Kobe and Mike together, but Kobe's

[A]

a six man dude.

[B]

Kobe's not my sixth man. I'm going. I'm going LeBron, one, Mike two, Kobe three. And then this gets very interesting. I'm not going to use the current, current, current players, but I really want to go Tim Duncan, 4. Just because with Mike and Kobe, I'm going to need somebody to. I got to really balance those guys out, but I want both of them. But I got to balance those guys out.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Be able to talk to him.

[B]

Plus, you gotta. I want him to be able to initiate the offense from the. From the elbow to get those guys off the ball a little bit. And then my center. Oh, this is tough, man.

[A]

Taking Hakeem,

[C]

you go, Victor Wemby.

[D]

I mean, that's what I'm.

[B]

I can go Wimby.

[D]

That's what I was gonna say. I would say Wimby.

[A]

He's kind of a three.

[B]

No, really not a three. With that. I'm going. I'm going prime. Shaq, I was about to say. Yeah, no, I'm going. I'm going prime.

[A]

I have enough shooting. You're damn not enough shooting on that team. Let me. I'm going to beat you with my team. Now. LeBron is.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I take that back. I'm putting KD on my team, right? I'm replacing Duncan with KD because LeBron can guard fours. I'm replacing Duncan with Katie. I'm putting Katie on the threes, plus Shaq, Kobe and Mike guard the guard, the guards. And then my sixth man is going to be Steph. Steph Curry is going to be my sixth man and my coach. I'm going with T. Lewis, my coach.

[A]

Okay, Can I just beat your team now?

[E]

Phil Jackson, man, we got the Phil Jackson with it.

[A]

KD is not the four, okay? It's LeBron.

[B]

That's your team.

[A]

I know what I'm feeding your kids. What are you talking about? LeBron is the point.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

MJ is the two, okay? KD is the three. And watch this. I'm going to have shooting so I could play in any era. Bird is playing the four. And now at the. KD is not better than Bird.

[B]

Not bad. I'm not.

[A]

Listen, but I'm having both because we

[B]

are going to cook Bird.

[A]

Just know that because everyone could shoot.

[B]

You talking about these guys don't know between Larry Bird or Tweety Bird, man. What are you talking about?

[A]

KD gonna shoot till his arms fall off, though. Listen, no, on that team, KD's just gonna play in the flow. And at the five is gonna be either Duncan or Hakeem.

[D]

Correct.

[A]

Kobe's my sixth man because he can come in at the 1 2.

[B]

No, you lose with my team. With my team, you lose.

[E]

I just don't feel like Larry Bird can guard.

[B]

We put Larry Bird every ball screen.

[A]

Larry Bird was a. Was a back for that era.

[B]

We're putting him in every ball screen with them Converse weapons on. For sure. We're putting him in every ball. And I'm a Larry Bird fan. But you talk about all time team.

[A]

Listen, your Guy is betting LeBron is better than Bird by a little bit. LeBron is better than Bird. But it's, it's close. It's not a wipeout. LeBron's. Listen, Berg was like that. He was like that.

[E]

He was like that.

[C]

What about your coach, though?

[A]

Pat Riley?

[B]

It's not good, T. Look, can I have one? Can I have one more guy?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Seven, man.

[B]

I got to put My. I got. Because I just need. I need Isaiah Thomas on this team.

[D]

Which one though?

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Pistons or like. No, no, you can't even ask. Come on, stop, stop. We should interview.

[B]

Wait a minute.

[F]

Listen.

[A]

Which Low grind Isaiah. Slow grinding.

[B]

No disrespect to my man. It slow groan, but come on, somehow.

[C]

Pistons Isaiah.

[B]

Yes, Pistons.

[A]

Pistons Isaiah. I mean like Celtics.

[C]

Isaiah was good too, though.

[A]

But see, you guys are thinking about who's better the recent players. If you just pluck these dudes out of their prime, of course Larry would get cooked today, but if he grew up today, his game would be a little.

[B]

That's a fair point. That's a fair assessment.

[A]

And if you threw KD back then his game would have been different. You wouldn't have been allowed to face the basket. You know you can't do it.

[E]

By the way.

[B]

That's such a loaded question, Brandon, Because I got like six or seven different ways I can go. I'm sticking with my team. I know which Isaiah is wild.

[A]

Wild.

[B]

But nevertheless, we clip that. No, it's not bad because it's my man. But even he would say no, wait,

[C]

so when you say. When somebody says mellow, who do you think of?

[A]

Carmelo Anthony as opposed to Lamelo Ball.

[D]

So you think if you like put kd, if you put Max.

[B]

We are really. Yeah, we're getting to like 35 cent coffee on McDonald's stage now. This is crazy.

[A]

KD. KD would never be the goat because his mentality is not that.

[D]

But if you put him back in the day.

[A]

Back in the day, average 50, he

[B]

would have been KD Iceman Girving with a three point.

[A]

Yeah, sort of.

[E]

But.

[A]

But at KD's height, he probably wouldn't be allowed back then to play the way he plays now. He wouldn't come up playing that way.

[B]

That's fair.

[A]

Like Shaq could have. Shaq could have handled much more than he.

[B]

They might have said KD back then was a. Was too small of a center.

[A]

Too small. Right. Too light. Too light to be a center.

[B]

Which is why it's such a blessing that Wimby's allowed to be Wimby. Because if Wimby played back in the day, they wouldn't allow him to play. There's been a lot of gatekeeping and like, you know, we should have been out of that, by the way, like stuck on. You have to play this way because just how I.

[A]

This is what's crazy about Wemby, by the way. It's the reverse. He's 7 foot 5, doesn't know how to post up yet he comes off with flares. He's 7 foot 5 in the last part of his game. Like if he's, if he lasts 20 years from now, if he's still healthy, he'll be back to the basketball. Is he's gonna be a totally different game.

[B]

Yeah, he might score 75,000.

[A]

Yeah, he put on a 40, 50 pounds.

[E]

And you know, he's not, he can't, he can't put on £4,050. My opinion. And stay healthy though.

[A]

No, I'm saying when he gets, when you get older, you just put on the weight.

[F]

Anyway, this episode is brought to you by Weathertech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need Weathertech floor liners in the summer. Unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or a road trip goes sideways. Ketchup goes rogue, ice cream drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those Weathertech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably gonna step into the summer. You don't need Weathertech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit weathertech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable Internet means everything for your business and even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with Internet, advanced Wi Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24. 7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum business. So visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. Restrictions apply. Services not available in all areas.

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[B]

How great was that?

[A]

Okay, look, we're on the. We're on, we're doing the show. I know. No matter what I Say people clutch this and that. Those guys are very. They're kids. They're very impressive. They're very impressive, Rich, because they have internalized all the stuff that you want to hear. Like, who do you want on your team, right? Whoever your team's about to draft someone, you want someone on your team who's internalized all the stuff that leads to winning, right? Because you want your team to win. Those three kids, all of them have totally internalized all the stuff that a fan wants to hear because it means they don't need to think about the answer or anything. It comes right from the heart.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And so they're just, all three of them, very impressive.

[B]

You were surprised. You weren't surprised. You hear me talk about them all the time. But I always said to the group, it's one thing to play, right? They're young players. They're going to continue to develop, you know, but the mentality. The mentality that they have allows you to have this foundation to build on. See, that's the key guys can come in. You can be so talented, so. So skilled and ranked, et cetera. But if your foundation is shaky or off in some capacity, it's hard for you to. Even if you. Even if you build the biggest house in the moment, the foundation is still shaky. So at any given time, it could collapse. That could. In the NBA, that could be. It could be too much money. It could be this, it could be that. Whatever the case may be. Focus, loss of focus. I knew going into the combine, when they got. Because you get interviewed, you get going to the combine, each team, like, sends in their list of guys they want to interview, and then they get. They get their print out early. They're scheduled. And I said to myself, I said, whatever they thought of these guys prior

[A]

to, they like them more now.

[B]

When you come out of that interview, forget about it.

[A]

You want that. You want them on your team?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You want them on your team. All three of those guys, Even if you didn't. Even if you already had a player that does things that Burry's does or that Pete does, I mean, obviously. Or that Caleb does, even if you already had that, you would still want them on your ticket. 21 and over in select states. For Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 and over and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY RESET. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org ChattinConnecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24. 7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-871-78-HOPE NY or text Hopeny in New York. For Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867.

[B]

Some Follow the noise Bloomberg follows the money.

[A]

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[F]

Subscribe [e-mail].