CRABBY: Former US Attorney Rachel Paulose speaks out on ICE, court rulings and fraud

Summary

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Garage Logic: CRABBY — Former US Attorney Rachel Paulose Speaks Out on ICE, Court Rulings, and Fraud

January 29, 2026 | Gamut Podcast Network

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Episode Overview

This episode features former U.S. Attorney Rachel Paulose in a detailed, candid conversation about recent federal and state legal battles in Minnesota—particularly those involving ICE actions, federal court rulings, strained relations between state and federal agencies, and Minnesota’s sprawling, multi-billion-dollar fraud investigations. Hosts Jay and Kenny use their trademark “garage logic” lens: pragmatic, irreverent, and direct. Rachel Paulose delivers expert legal insight and personal reflection on these historic developments, contextualizing why the current climate is unprecedented and urging a return to cooperation and common values.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Federal Court Crisis: ICE and Habeas Petitions

• Context: Minnesota sued the federal government over Operation Metro Surge and sought a temporary restraining order.

• Chief Judge Assignment:

  • Chief Judge Patrick Schultz, Harvard and Scalia pedigree, is presiding, considered the best possible judge for fairness and rigor ([05:08]; Rachel Paulose).
  • “If life were fair, he would have been on the U.S. Supreme Court.”
    — Rachel Paulose [05:10]

• ICE’s Overwhelming Caseload:

  • Minnesota’s federal courts are flooded with hundreds, possibly thousands, of habeas petitions from detainees ([06:27]; Paulose).
  • Unfortunately, the U.S. Attorney’s office, already stressed by internal turmoil, is too small (approx. 100 staff) to keep pace.
  • Chief Judge Schultz, fed up with government delays, ordered ICE’s local head to appear in court. ICE’s last-minute release of the detainee avoided that showdown but sent a strong message:
    • “The court’s patience is at an end.” — Judge Schultz, paraphrased by Kenny [08:34]
    • Sets an expectation ICE must be able to handle the legal burden, despite the surge.

• Unanswered Questions:

  • Will mass releases occur?
  • Will DOJ send reinforcements?
  • What recourse do possibly misidentified detainees have?
    • 42 USC §1983 permits civil lawsuits for deprivation of constitutional rights ([13:32]; Paulose), but these are expensive, slow, and rare for indigent detainees.

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2. Judicial Rulings and Clashes Between State & Feds

• Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) Attempts:

  • Minnesota AG Ellison filed for a TRO to halt Operation Metro Surge.
  • District Judge Kathryn Menendez ruled protestors’ First Amendment rights must be honored and law enforcement must “play by the rules” ([15:31]; Paulose).
    • “The ruling was, essentially, everybody play by the rules.” — Rachel Paulose [15:40]
  • 8th Circuit Court of Appeals reversed Menendez’s order ([16:25]; Paulose).

• Preservation of Evidence:

  • State sued to prevent destruction of evidence in a controversial civilian death.
  • Judge Tostrud issued an order:
    • "Freeze. You're not allowed to destroy any of the evidence..." ([17:12]; Paulose)
  • Hosts found it astounding a judge even needed to say this, highlighting the collapse of trust among agencies ([17:33]).

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3. Breakdown of State-Federal Law Enforcement Cooperation

• Personal and Historic Reflections:
  • Rachel Paulose, with 15+ years as a federal prosecutor, expresses sadness over the deterioration:
    • “I experienced professionalism and cooperation and trust. And so that makes me sad.” ([21:07]; Paulose)
  • Sanctuary city policies (Minnesota, specifically Minneapolis/St. Paul) are part of the friction: state refusal to aid federal immigration enforcement is cited as a fundamental issue ([21:41]; Paulose).
    • “Can we at least agree that people who have violated the criminal law, who are in this country illegally, should be turned over to ICE...” ([21:41]; Paulose)

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4. Arrival of Tom Homan and Hope for Reconciliation

• Importance of Tom Homan’s Visit:
  • Homan, the “border czar” and veteran of service under six presidents, sent as a trusted ambassador to mediate and reset relationships ([25:52]; Paulose).
    • “It tells me that there is hope for reconciliation and both sides are moving, which is what needs to happen.” ([26:48]; Paulose)
  • Both sides (Trump and Walz administrations, Minneapolis city officials) need to “swallow a little pride” and engage in real talks ([25:08]; Jay).

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5. Mass Departure in Fraud Division & Focus on $9 Billion Minnesota Fraud

• Key Personnel Exit:

  • Recent loss of six top fraud prosecutors, notably Joe Thompson; Paulose laments the loss as “wonderful prosecutors who did enormous good” ([29:32]; Paulose).
  • While not unusual for prosecutors to move on, six leaving at once is stunning, and “some of the momentum is going to be lost” in fraud investigations ([31:49]; Paulose).

• Scope and Impact:

  • Feeding Our Future and related fraud cases now estimate $9 billion in fraud; some programs like housing stabilization may be 90% fraudulent ([38:10]; Jay & Paulose).
    • “When Joe first said a billion dollars...and then to up it, double down and go nine billion, was incredibly courageous of him.” — Jay [36:43]
  • Public hopes for Joe Thompson to return to public service, even rumors of a run for governor, but his passion lies in prosecution ([38:49]; Jay & Paulose).
    • "He is a straight shooter...if he gives you a number, it’s because he has facts.” ([37:05]; Paulose)

• Homan’s Role in Fraud Oversight:

  • Homan to “oversee” federal fraud response—a sign the administration takes it seriously and may send additional resources ([32:35]; Paulose).

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6. Media, Journalism, and The Role of the Press

• Host Segment (Post-interview):
  • Kenny and Jay discuss the evolution of journalism, the frustrations of “influencers” or non-traditional reporters being held up as journalists without following ethical guidelines ([50:09] onward).
  • They comment on the hazards and expectations of journalism during civil unrest and protests, agreeing that journalists accept the risks and shouldn’t make themselves the story ([56:10] and following).

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7. Calls for Humanity and Reflection Amid Political Polarization

• Mutual Respect and Dignity:
  • Rachel Paulose closes with an appeal for recognizing the “image of the Almighty” in all people, upholding the principles of dignity, rights—even for those we disagree with, or who have committed crimes ([44:45]; Paulose).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

“If life were fair, he would have been on the U.S. Supreme Court...He does not suffer fools gladly.”
— Rachel Paulose on Chief Judge Patrick Schultz [05:08]

“The court’s patience is at an end.”
— Paraphrased, Judge Schultz (via Kenny) [08:34]

“Can we at least agree that people who have violated the criminal law, who are in this country illegally, should be turned over to ICE?”
— Rachel Paulose [21:41]

“This tribe mentality is really hurting the country.”
— Kenny [45:45]

“Being an AUSA is such a unique honor...to do good every day, to know that you’re fighting for the right thing and to put dangerous people away, to protect the public.”
— Rachel Paulose [41:06]

“If he gives you a number, it’s because he has facts, evidence, documents to back it up.”
— Rachel Paulose on Joe Thompson [37:05]

“I hope we can get to a place where we see in even our opponents the image of God...We believe strongly in this country in the sanctity of human life, and we defend it ferociously...that again makes us unique.”
— Rachel Paulose [44:45]

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• Introductions, ICE and Federal Case Background — [03:00–06:15]
• Chief Judge Patrick Schultz Profile — [05:08–06:00]
• ICE Habeas Crisis & Court Showdowns — [06:27–09:27]
• Legal Rights of Detainees, Litigation Options — [12:32–14:57]
• Temporary Restraining Orders/Court Rulings — [15:07–17:12]
• Federal-State Evidence Conflict — [17:13–18:49]
• Breakdown of State-Federal Cooperation — [19:26–21:07]
• Sanctuary Cities’ Role — [21:07–23:21]
• Tom Homan’s Arrival & Hopes for Resolution — [25:52–28:44]
• Personnel Loss in Fraud Prosecution, $9 Billion Fraud Scope — [29:32–31:49]
• Impact on Fraud Case Momentum & Homan’s Oversight Role — [32:35–33:08]
• Professionalism and Character in Law Enforcement — [36:43–41:47]
• Paulose’s Call for Human Dignity and Cooperation — [44:45–46:06]
• Host Reflections on Journalism & Coverage Challenges — [49:21–56:44]

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Tone & Language

The episode blends authority and pragmatism with frank, relatable humor. Paulose is composed yet passionate; Jay and Kenny infuse every exchange with self-deprecating asides, skeptical curiosity, and genuine Midwestern concern for the state of public life and trust.

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Summary

This episode offers a rare, insider’s breakdown of high-stakes legal and political drama in Minnesota, with Rachel Paulose providing (in plain language) both the technical details and the ethical context missing from most coverage. Listeners come away with a nuanced understanding of the federal/state legal stand-off, the ICE court crisis, the extraordinary scale and challenge of fraud prosecutions, and, above all, the urgent need for renewed trust, competence, and human decency in American public life.

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Transcript

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[Kenny]

J. Coles.

[Jay]

Kenny, we get the big hitters in here, don't we?

[Kenny]

To the name of today's program is Please Help Me Understand. And I, I think we're setting some sort of record for having former US Attorneys for the state of Minnesota.

[Jay]

Yeah. Now we're on a roll as I the big hitters. And we've got another one lucky enough to take time out of her busy day.

[Rachel Paulos]

Joining us today you have Your favorite former U.S. attorney.

[Jay]

My favorite former U.S. attorney. I'm glad you threw that in there, Rachel. With us is Rachel Paulos, former U.S. attorney for Minnesota back in 2007. Right. Appointed by George W. Bush. President Bush 2007.

[Rachel Paulos]

2006 to 2008.

[Jay]

There you go. So 2006 under President Bush. Correct?

[Rachel Paulos]

Correct.

[Jay]

And thanks for joining us, Kenny. And I, like Kenny said, it's more of as we stay on top of everything that's going on day with ICE and the Border Patrol, we thought we'd bring you in because we had significant federal stuff going on.

[Kenny]

First, let's talk about our street creds here, Jay. Let's big up ourselves. We had Luger on.

[Jay]

Yes, we did.

[Kenny]

We were supposed to have Heffelfinger on. Yeah, he blew us off, but he blew us off. And we consider that somewhat of an honor. You know, if you're gonna get blown off by somebody, it may as well be somebody big like a US attorney. So we're really happy to see it at InterRachel.

[Rachel Paulos]

I'm delighted to be here. I've been working with KSTP for over a decade now, long time. And you are trusted partners. And I'm very happy to help break down the legal issues and just have a conversation.

[Kenny]

I don't even know where to start. Just pick a spot, throw a dart, Jay, and pick a spot to start.

[Jay]

I think, you know, like I said to you when we talked about this yesterday and moving into today, today's big news is what's happening in federal court. Right. So the state of Minnesota, Rachel, as you know, has sued the federal government trying to get a temporary restraining order. There's all kinds of things going on to halt the surge or at least get a temporary restraining order, maybe to slow it down or stop it temporarily. And today, I think today is the deadline for the feds, for the federal government to respond to that lawsuit. And what's really key, Kenny, and what's really interesting is the chief federal judge. Right. The chief judge of the federal district court System is overseeing this, which makes it a big deal, Rachel. And could you explain why is it a big deal? Who is the chief judge, and why is that a big deal that he's now involved with this?

[Rachel Paulos]

The Chief Judge of the District of Minnesota is Patrick Schultz, who is a brilliant man. I think if life were fair, he would have been on the U.S. supreme Court. He's a graduate of Harvard Law School. He clerked for Justice Antonin Scalia on the United States Supreme Court. Had earlier clerked for Justice Scalia when he was on the D.C. circuit Court of Appeals. Really just blow your mind. Brilliant. If you appear in his courtroom, as I have a number of times, you had better well be prepared. He does not suffer fools gladly. Yes.

[Jay]

So if this case is gonna go before anybody to have confidence for the people of Minnesota, he's your guy.

[Rachel Paulos]

He's a man of impeccable credentials and just unquestionable integrity. He's also a devoted family man and serious Catholic who helped found the University of St. Thomas School of Law.

[Jay]

Oh, wow.

[Rachel Paulos]

Okay. Over 20 years ago, to my record.

[Jay]

I can tell you this. I've sat in federal courtrooms, and they can be intimidating as hell. Intimidating as hell. So if he's all that and more and he's in charge, even as a reporter sitting in, I'd be nervous. Just a little bit nervous.

[Rachel Paulos]

He's all that.

[Jay]

What is the issue? Explain. What is the issue? What will the chief judge be presiding over? And why is it so significant to what's happening with Metro Operation Metro Surge?

[Rachel Paulos]

So the specific issue before Chief Judge Schultz, who was randomly assigned this case, he did not pluck it out of the case list. But that's how the cases are assigned. They're randomly assigned by the Clerk of court. Has to do with the ICE retention of people in custody. And those people are now bringing what are called habeas petitions to be released from custody for various reasons. There was a particular individual, and we won't get down into the details for the benefit of your listeners or viewers who had filed this petition to be released from custody, and the judge had ordered him release. The government had not responded. The judge had ordered a response, had ordered a response, had ordered some kind of response from the government. I think it's fair to say that ICE is overwhelmed right now. There are hundreds, if not thousands of these petitions being filed in Minnesota alone. And so they are just being deluged. You have to remember that a large part of the responsibility for responding to these petitions falls on the U.S. attorney's office. For the District of Minnesota, which has seen its own share of troubles, a little bit of turmoil in the last six weeks. And so. And even at top capability, it's not an office of more than about 100 people, about half of whom are attorneys.

[Jay]

So if they're not. I'm sorry to interrupt you. If they're not responding to a court order, how do you think Judge Schultz is going to respond to that? I know they don't like when you don't respond.

[Rachel Paulos]

Well, in his words, he said he had lost patience with the failure to respond, and so he had ordered the local head of ICE to appear to answer for this.

[Jay]

That's a big deal.

[Rachel Paulos]

That was a big deal, and he's a serious judge. And ICE responded by releasing said prisoner in custody. And so now he doesn't have to appear in Judge Schultz's court.

[Kenny]

Yeah, right. So that's gone by the wayside. His quote, the court's patience is at an end.

[Jay]

You don't want a federal judge to ever utter those words.

[Kenny]

And he's ordered Todd Lyons to come face him.

[Jay]

Come face him. So with the release, the issue is moot. The issue is moot. Does it set a precedent of any kind or. Not really, because there's no. What happens now?

[Rachel Paulos]

Well, I think in terms of precedent, we're dealing with one individual. But I think it sends a message that the judge expects ICE to be on top of these petitions, despite the overwhelming flood that they're dealing with, in part because of their own actions in bringing over 3,000 agents here and trying to process many. Process as many people as they are in a short amount of time. But he expects them to have the resources to be able to deal with that.

[Jay]

Yeah. So do you suspect. What do you think will happen next? Will there be a flood of these into the federal court system? I mean, I know they're already there, but how is this gonna play out? Could we see a whole bunch getting released? Is it hard to know? What does it mean?

[Rachel Paulos]

I think that's a very good question. I think the government going to need help, and I think that they're probably going to ask for help from Main justice and from attorneys in D.C. there are many, many more, thousands who could assist the ground operation in Minnesota if needed to respond to these. Because if the argument is releasing these people back into society is dangerous, which is the administration's mantra, then failing to respond or just releasing them without kind of response is not going to be considered an acceptable resolution. I think from the administration's perspective, I don't speak for the Trump administration, obviously, but my assumption is that they're not going to view that as favorable.

[Kenny]

Where are they being held? I got to imagine they're spread out all over the United States, Right.

[Rachel Paulos]

Well, they can be held in state and local prisons and jails, depending on what they've been picked up for. But they can also be held in federal facilities, which is why you're seeing protests at a certain facility. A certain.

[Jay]

At Whipple. Yeah.

[Kenny]

Down by. Yeah, by Fort Snell.

[Jay]

So they hold them at Whipple, Kenny. But I guess they could go to county jails, too, if the county. Yeah.

[Kenny]

In my mind, I'm seeing them getting shipped off to Maurer county because they've got an extra couple of slots and I have no idea if that's.

[Jay]

I don't either. Well, some go to Texas. Right.

[Kenny]

We keep hearing Texas over and over.

[Rachel Paulos]

We're aware of people who have been sent to facilities in other parts of the country, including Texas. Yes.

[Jay]

So let me ask you this. There's also been complaints filed by attorneys in federal court claiming not only are their clients not criminals, but they're not even here illegally. Right. How does it work if you send someone to Texas, how do they get a hearing here in federal court where they were detained originally? Do they come back here? Do you know how this would work, Rachel?

[Rachel Paulos]

I haven't personally overseen any of these, but I think post Covid zoom hearings are not uncommon in federal court, so that's certainly a possibility. I'm not saying that's exactly what happens, but that is one way of resolving the issue. I know that. I've certainly heard of people being sent to Texas and the government not providing a way for them to get back. And so that doesn't seem right.

[Jay]

Is that something?

[Kenny]

Or do they all have represented. Are they represented by lawyers? And how do you find a lawyer in this situation?

[Rachel Paulos]

You have a constitutional right to a lawyer if you are accused of a federal crime. So that's Supreme Court precedent. But if you are an illegal alien that hasn't been charged with a federal crime, I mean, I suppose you could be charged with the federal crime of being here illegally. But if you're going through the civil process, you don't necessarily. You don't have a right to a criminal lawyer. So it really depends on the process that you're going through.

[Jay]

I'm learning a lot.

[Kenny]

And in Jay, you had a scenario where the person might actually be a citizen and might be not guilty. What if that person has been detained for five days, they discover the Truth, they set him free. Does he have any repercussions? I mean, can he.

[Jay]

His recourse sounds limited, right? Is that what you're saying?

[Kenny]

Is it just. Sorry, pal, you're, you know, see you later.

[Jay]

Exactly.

[Kenny]

Whoopsies.

[Jay]

Sorry. We'll dump you on the corner and good luck. That's what it feels like. Right.

[Rachel Paulos]

So you can always. There are always lawyers who will sue for almost anything. And there is a federal Statute codified at 42 USC Section 1983 for deprivation of constitutional rights.

[Kenny]

Check that, Jay.

[Jay]

You know, have you ever noticed when we had Luger on, we've got Rachel on. Even the former ICE guy, they're throwing out these code numbers.

[Kenny]

If you see our eyes glaze over and we're nodding, no, it's okay.

[Jay]

Because that kind of specific is what you do. Yeah, right.

[Kenny]

No, and we need that. Don't worry if we don't understand.

[Jay]

And trust me, actually, viewers and listeners appreciate it because it doesn't sound like you're just talking out of.

[Kenny]

And we will have viewers and listeners that will actually look that up and they'll know.

[Jay]

Yeah. Yeah. So you're fine with it? Because I like the precision of. You're like, I'll cite you the code, Jay.

[Rachel Paulos]

Right, Right. And so basically, you can bring a civil lawsuit claiming that your constitutional rights. Denied. And usually it's due process or some other deprivation of protection under the Bill of rights, the first 10amendments to the US Constitution, and you claim that you've been treated unfairly. And if you can find a lawyer to represent you to bring that suit, and the officer, or whoever the agent was that mistreated you and that person was acting under color of law, then you can bring that against a government agent.

[Jay]

In other words, Kenny, if you got some money, you could get an attorney.

[Kenny]

To fight that keyword money. And then a lot of time this would take forever, wouldn't it?

[Rachel Paulos]

Sounds like lawsuits do not move with the speed of lightning.

[Kenny]

Right?

[Jay]

Whatever happened to the issue of the state seeking a temporary restraining order that was filed by Ellison? I don't even know what you mean. So Ellison in the state of Minnesota said to the federal court system, hey, we're filing for a temporary restraining order against Operation Metro.

[Kenny]

Actually, I do know what you mean. I read about it yesterday.

[Jay]

I don't think there's been a ruling on. Has there or did I miss it?

[Rachel Paulos]

There was a ruling by the district court judge, Kathryn Menendez, another brilliant judge.

[Jay]

Federal judge.

[Rachel Paulos]

Federal judge, who ruled that essentially that protesters have First Amendment rights and their rights Must be honored agents must abide by the constitution when observing these protesters. And. And the ruling was, essentially, everybody play by the rules. That's how I would summarize.

[Jay]

Is that the one that got kicked up to the Court of Court of Appeals.

[Rachel Paulos]

Correct. And so that went up to the United States Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit, which covers every state.

[Jay]

St. Louis and.

[Rachel Paulos]

Correct. Minnesota to Arkansas and every state in between.

[Jay]

So that was the case I read about.

[Rachel Paulos]

Correct.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Jay]

All right, then. I actually did know what happened with that, but there was nothing about Temporary restraining order.

[Kenny]

They tossed it last Wednesday.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

I think it was reversed.

[Rachel Paulos]

They reversed it? Yeah.

[Jay]

Like. Well, no, they reversed it. Yeah. See, this is why you're here. This is why you're here.

[Rachel Paulos]

I wasn't correcting. I was just.

[Kenny]

That's fine.

[Jay]

The Court of appeals kind of said the opposite, which I find interesting. And then there was also a federal. Another. The state also filed another lawsuit saying. I think it was the bca along with Ellison. Right. Saying, don't touch any of the evidence.

[Rachel Paulos]

Right, right.

[Jay]

Have they ruled on not touching any of the evidence? Has a federal judge ruled on that?

[Rachel Paulos]

And so Judge Tostrud, who's also a United States federal judge, issued, again, a temporary order that I think it's now going through the process that basically said, freeze.

[Jay]

Freeze it. Yeah.

[Rachel Paulos]

And you're not allowed to destroy federal authorities. You're not allowed to destroy any of the evidence that's relevant to the death of the latest civilian who.

[Jay]

Doesn't that seem extraordinary, that you would need a federal court judge to tell law enforcement, don't destroy evidence?

[Rachel Paulos]

Well, it really points to the deterioration in the relationship between the federal government right there.

[Jay]

Because that should just be a given.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

I mean, that points to how bad this has gotten. At least I can say that. I don't know if you can, but.

[Rachel Paulos]

It'S not a good relationship at this point. And so I'm very sad for that, because Drew Evans, who's the head of the bca, is a longtime friend and former colleague of mine.

[Kenny]

Drew.

[Jay]

For long, long, long time. And he's a straight shooter, man.

[Rachel Paulos]

He is a straight shooter.

[Jay]

I trust Drew.

[Rachel Paulos]

He's a professional, and he knows what he's doing.

[Jay]

I could tell by the look on Drew's face at that last news conference.

[Rachel Paulos]

That he was not happy.

[Jay]

Yep. I could tell by the look on his face when he got the question, you know, have you ever seen this before? Don't the feds always cooperate with state police when they're doing an investigation? And you could just tell. I could tell by the way Drew was glancing, looking down, kind of half smirking. I'm like, oh, Drew's pissed. Drew's pissed.

[Rachel Paulos]

He's a good man. And I. I think that, you know, I have had the pleasure of working with many great BCA agents over the years.

[Jay]

He's right up there, though.

[Rachel Paulos]

And. But. But he's.

[Jay]

Drew's right up there.

[Rachel Paulos]

Drew is running the show.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Rachel Paulos]

So I hope so.

[Jay]

Drew's angry. It tells me something.

[Rachel Paulos]

Well, I hope that relationship can be repaired. And I'm sure there are many things that we don't know that are not being revealed to the public. And I found that difficult when I was U.S. attorney as well, that so many things the public didn't know or things that they were being told that were not true.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And you would never tell me. And it always upset me.

[Rachel Paulos]

No, I'm kidding. No, you were always kind to me, Jay. Just kidding. But there's so many things that you're prohibited from. From disclosing to the public by federal rules, criminal procedure and so. Or other constitutional prohibitions or statutory prohibitions, and the government has to play by the rules. And so your hands are tied.

[Jay]

And so you've been around a long time, like me. Have you ever.

[Rachel Paulos]

What are you saying, Jay?

[Jay]

No, we've seen a lot over 20 plus years. That leads to my next question. Have you ever seen anything quite like this?

[Rachel Paulos]

No.

[Jay]

Yeah, that's what I thought the answer would be. Did you think it would come to this, where you've got the state and the feds going to court over constitutional issues, gathering of evidence, protection of evidence, not answering court orders? I mean, it just almost seems unfathomable. I would have never, ever guessed I'd see this in my career, to be quite honest with you.

[Rachel Paulos]

So I have three answers to that question.

[Jay]

Okay, good.

[Rachel Paulos]

And the first, most direct answer is no, I didn't think it could come to this.

[Jay]

Right.

[Rachel Paulos]

The second. Second answer to your question is it makes me really sad as someone who had the privilege of serving The United States 15 years as. As a civil servant, even before I was a U.S. attorney, as a federal prosecutor and someone who worked at the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission and almost a professional, that things have gotten to this point. I really enjoyed working with people, with our partners from the state and the local authorities. I learned so much from them because.

[Jay]

We should let the listeners and viewers know. Before you were appointed U.S. attorney for Minnesota, the District of Minnesota, you were a federal prosecutor too, correct? You were in the courtroom Prosecuting cases.

[Rachel Paulos]

I was trying cases. Exactly.

[Jay]

So you probably never experienced anything like this where there was not cooperation. Right.

[Rachel Paulos]

I experienced professionalism and cooperation and trust. And so that makes me sad. The third thing I'll say is let's be clear about part of why this is happening is because Minnesota, for decades, and particularly Minneapolis and St. Paul, are sanctuary cities, and they have refused, the political leadership has refused to help the federal government enforce federal immigration laws. Now, we reasonable people can disagree on what federal immigration policy can be, and I'm not here to debate that, and I know you're not either.

[Jay]

Right.

[Rachel Paulos]

But if there is to be a policy change at the federal level, that's an issue for Congress to determine. And the fact that there are dangerous criminals sitting in Minnesota prisons and jails who have not been turned over to ice, you know, I think that's something for people to consider. Can we start there? Can we at least agree that people who have violated the criminal law, who are in this country illegally, should be turned over to ice? And then we can talk about other categories of people that we might have disagreements about and, you know, let that work itself out in the political process. But I think that is part of what Attorney General Pam Bondi's letter to the state was about, that she wrote late last week or early this week.

[Jay]

It was late last week.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes. Asking. And which I think the president, essentially.

[Jay]

She was asking for cooperation to that point.

[Rachel Paulos]

To that point. And so we're not seeing this kind of meltdown in relationships and protests on the streets and near riots in other cities, even though there are other cities that have these sanctuary policies. So something unique is happening here. And I think it's worth asking the question of how did this happen and how can we get this back on track? I do think to go back to something that we talked about before we went on air, you know, the president sending Mr. Holman here in person is part of a reset which is badly needed.

[Jay]

Tom Holman, we're talking about.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes, the border czar is part of a reset that is badly needed to try to get the relationship back on track. Because let's. But let's be real here. The U.S. attorney's office, and in particular the prosecutors cannot bring cases on their own. I never went out and collected evidence on my own. I did not interview witnesses on my own. I did not.

[Kenny]

I never wondered about that.

[Rachel Paulos]

No, I did not.

[Jay]

She relies on the investigators at the state and federal level.

[Rachel Paulos]

Exactly. And so everything from our cases on human trafficking, which I initiated when I was U.S. attorney, to your. Your gang, gun and drug cases all rely heavily on those agents, and particularly the local agents who know the people who are committing these kinds of crimes. And so.

[Jay]

Well, the Minnesota U.S. attorney's office just put away over 90 gang bangers on RICO stuff.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

You couldn't do that without the local. Absolutely right.

[Kenny]

So a lot of people are saying the Hennepin County, Minneapolis, not cooperating with the feds is what's led to these violent protests. Protests. How are you with that notion?

[Rachel Paulos]

I think that the rhetoric has not been helpful. The lack of cooperation has not been helpful. And again, if we could just agree on at least one category of criminal illegal aliens who've committed violent acts that we could turn over, I think we could go a long way.

[Jay]

So you're saying let's get a starting point.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

Where do we agree now? Kenny and I are geniuses because last week we touched on it a little bit. We didn't go into detail. As I said, at some point they gotta sit down and talk.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

At some point, the feds, the Trump administration, and the Walls administration are gonna have to swallow a little pride. And Mayor Fry, maybe two. Right?

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

And start talking.

[Kenny]

How fun would it have been to listen in on that phone conversation between the president and the governor?

[Jay]

The governor and then Holman and Frye and o'. Hara. Yeah, right.

[Kenny]

Yeah. It'd be fun just to overhear.

[Jay]

Oh, it had to be, I don't know.

[Kenny]

Very tense.

[Jay]

Very tense.

[Kenny]

Very tense.

[Jay]

Gotta be awkward at some moment.

[Rachel Paulos]

How fun to listen in on any conversation involving President Trump.

[Jay]

Exactly. Well, let me ask you about Homan coming. Right. Kenny and I would sit here at the end of the bar having a beer, going, well, why is Homan here if he's. The borders are. But why should we care? Well, as you said to me, he's a big deal.

[Kenny]

What's the other guy's name? I've already forgotten. He went from the penthouse to the outhouse.

[Jay]

Bovino. Mr. Bovino, head of the border patrol. Go. There's a reason for that, too, but we may never know the whole reason. But Holman coming is a big deal.

[Rachel Paulos]

Why Mr. Holman coming is a big deal? Because he is clearly a trusted ambassador of the Trump administration and a close confidant of the president himself. And so the fact that the president had been saying for weeks, if not longer that he was not budging on what he expected from the state of Minnesota and the city, and then he picked up the phone and said, said, can we try to talk here? And then sent Somebody new to address the situation tells me that there is hope for reconciliation and both sides are moving, which is what needs to happen.

[Jay]

I took it as a positive sign.

[Rachel Paulos]

I think it is a positive sign, and I think that the citizens of Minnesota should be happy. I don't think anyone wants to see more bloodshed, more violence, more anger, especially breaking out into our streets. I think we can all agree on that, too.

[Kenny]

Yeah, it's been awful, awful.

[Jay]

And the tension is palpable, terrible. So it's a real deal. And yet another thing people should know about Homan, correct me if I'm wrong, I think he's under six presidents that he served now. Five, six presidents.

[Rachel Paulos]

So you talk about a career servant. This is a man who has served the US Government for a very long time and his father and grandfather before him.

[Kenny]

Yeah, but he's not bellied up to the pay window. I mean, he's actually done a lot of really good things.

[Rachel Paulos]

That's right.

[Jay]

Well, in fact, I didn't even realize this until I saw something on the Internet a week ago where President Obama gave him a medal of some sort for his service on the border.

[Kenny]

He sold that on Marketplace.

[Jay]

Probably got a good. Why can't you and I get a medal? We can sell on the marketplace. We don't ask for much. I get cashews from the sales.

[Kenny]

I wouldn't even be to the airport and I'd have that thing listed. That's how much I need.

[Jay]

Well, I think, you know, I think it's so hard. Important, though we joke a little bit. But to say this Hohman guy, the fact that he's showing up, I thought to myself, and I'll be honest, I thought, okay, we're gonna get a resolution now.

[Kenny]

Both sides, political sides of the aisle, should be happy.

[Jay]

That's because, like I said, he served under six presidents.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes. The temperature needs to come way down. And I think sending Mr. Hohman was a big part of dialing the temperature down, dialing the rhetoric down.

[Jay]

And my immediate thought, if I just. It's gonna get resolved now. Holman's here. It's going to get fixed.

[Rachel Paulos]

He's a deal maker.

[Jay]

Maybe not right away, but it's going to get fixed.

[Rachel Paulos]

He's a deal maker.

[Jay]

He is a deal maker. And the other thing that I found interesting, Kenny and I brought this up to you when we're walking down the hallway. Oh, and almost as a sidebar to this story, Holman's going to be overseeing the fraud stuff in Minnesota.

[Kenny]

Okay. Now we're changing you're going where I want to go. My personal hero, Joe Thompson. Yeah, gone.

[Jay]

Yeah, gone with five others. And now Holman's gonna oversee it all.

[Rachel Paulos]

Why?

[Kenny]

I mean, who's the new guy that got appointed?

[Jay]

Daniel Rosen.

[Kenny]

So Daniel appointed him, said fraud is your deal. Stay on the case. You're the man. He did so much good. A lot of good. So much.

[Jay]

He really did.

[Kenny]

And when he left, the day he left, our hearts just sunk.

[Jay]

Yeah. Good guy. I've known him for a while. I've always liked Joe. Straight up guy, great shooter, nice guy. He always treated me nicely.

[Rachel Paulos]

I think the world of Joe Thompson, and I also thought the world of Harry Jacobs and Melinda Williams.

[Jay]

Melinda Williams. I also love Melinda Williams.

[Kenny]

What do you make of Joe and the crew leaving?

[Jay]

Yeah, good question.

[Rachel Paulos]

I'm sad for the office because they were wonderful prosecutors who did enormous good for the state of Minnesota. 78 people indicted for. And more to come, probably based on what they've told us, $9 billion fraud and counting, and incredible professionals. And on a personal level, just really wonderful human beings who counted friends, whom I count friends. And so I'm sad. It's also true that most people don't go to the U.S. attorney's office and stay a career.

[Jay]

Right. It's not 20, 30 years usually.

[Rachel Paulos]

And maybe it was that way long before I started.

[Jay]

Maybe in the 90s, it might have been, but not for many years.

[Rachel Paulos]

And so it is not uncommon for people to leave the office. It is certainly unusual for six to leave at once.

[Jay]

And what does it mean for the fraud investigation? Sorry to interrupt you, but can you. Can you. What happens? Kenny and I were talking one time, like, how do you pick up if you have 70 fraud cases already and you're gonna get to the level of 110 or 126 walk out? Can they continue those fraud investigations or are they kind of put on hold until they get new people in there? What happens with the fraud? Or is it hard to tell?

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes, it can continue, but not at the same pace. There is gonna be a learning curve. And I think, again, this is gonna be a moment where re are going to be needed, whether they come from the state of Minnesota or from what we call the mothership in Washington, D.C. main justice. We already knew that the scope of the fraud was beyond the capability of a squad of less than 10 people.

[Jay]

I was gonna say there's only, what, 70 or 80 total in the Minnesota U.S. attorney's office. Right. Is there 80, 85?

[Rachel Paulos]

I think it's less than that. When I was U.S. attorney. We had less than 40 criminal AUSAs.

[Jay]

So if you only have 40, assistant U.S. attorneys are now maybe up to 70. But you have in fraud alone, which is what be under white collar crime? Assuming.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that's what Joe.

[Jay]

So how in the world. How in the world can you get. It sounds to me it's a heavy lift. It sounds like if you lose six, you're gonna lose some fraud cases.

[Rachel Paulos]

I don't think we're gonna lose the cases. I think that some of the momentum is going to be lost. But I think that everyone understands, including the U.S. attorney's office, that fighting fraud, white collar fraud has got to be the number one law enforcement priority in Minnesota. That is what makes sense for this state. And that has got to be the number one issue for law enforcement to be focused on right now. And I think we've lost a little bit of focus over the last couple weeks, but we need to turn back to that and that's gotta be front and center.

[Jay]

What does it mean for Homan though? When they started saying Homan was gonna oversee the fraud, I thought, what does that mean? He's not Daniel Rosen. He's the U.S. attorney for Minnesota.

[Rachel Paulos]

Right, Right.

[Jay]

What does it mean Homan's gonna oversee it? Can you answer that?

[Rachel Paulos]

It means he's incredibly trusted. But I also think, again, it's a reiteration of the sign that one, the administration recognizes that that needs to be the number one federal law enforcement priority. And some of that attention has been been lost and the focus has been, I think, a little bit misplaced. But two, that they're going to provide the resources necessary to.

[Jay]

To get after it.

[Rachel Paulos]

Correct? That is my assumption. That's how I read it.

[Kenny]

This drama with ICE has really taken attention away from the whole fraud issue for now. And I was shocked when the governor weighed in when Joe was still in office working. I was shocked at what the governor said about him. I don't know if you want to comment on that.

[Jay]

I just said it was directed at Daniel Rosen, the current U.S. attorney. And he tried to. Walz tried to say it was in reference to something Rosen said on a CBS interview and not Joe Thompson.

[Kenny]

It just seems like an ill advised approach for the governor.

[Jay]

Yeah, it was surprising to me.

[Rachel Paulos]

It was outrageous and totally unprofessional and Joe Thompson did not deserve that.

[Kenny]

Thank you. I didn't think you were going to go there, but that's the way I felt with foul language thrown in there.

[Rachel Paulos]

Right. I don't know any foul language because I'M a pastor's kid, so we can.

[Kenny]

Teach you some, But I wouldn't hang around. Don't get addicted to using it.

[Jay]

We're the worst influence anybody could have.

[Rachel Paulos]

Rachel, I think you just follow the facts and follow the evidentiary trail in Minnesota. And I think the good folks of Minnesota know exactly what has been happening in this state for years now. And it's not about one prosecutor or even just one man. It's about schemes that have gone on undetected. And, you know, certainly Joe Thompson was front and center in being the spokesperson for sharing the details of that, but there was a massive team behind him.

[Jay]

Oh, incredible guys from MIT and Yale.

[Rachel Paulos]

And you'd have to claim that every one of them was corrupt.

[Jay]

I met some of them because I would go into sit down and do interviews with the sitting U.S. attorney. And I met a couple of these guys off camera. And, you know, you're like, oh, so where'd you go to? Where'd you go? Oh, I went to mit. Oh, I went to Stanford Law. And I'm like, what are you doing in Minnesota?

[Kenny]

I went to Brown, and I learned how to say get and not get.

[Jay]

I still say crick. I'm sitting in a room with these people, Kenny, and I'm going, how'd I get? How did I get.

[Kenny]

Keep your mouth closed.

[Jay]

Keep your mouth.

[Kenny]

Don't say anything.

[Jay]

There's all kinds of geniuses in here. And then there's me. Yeah, I'll never forget. I interviewed Joe Thompson, did a sit down with him, and Melinda was sitting in the room, and Joe. This was when Joe first said a billion dollars, not 9 billion. Now you can imagine, Rachel, I'm sitting like this across from him as he says the billion dollars. And I'm like, now we're taping the interview. And I was like, okay, he just said a billion dollars. My thought bubble's going. Thought bubble's going. I get done with the interview. And I turned to Melinda, who was sitting where Kenny's sitting, and I turned to Joe and the camera was off. And I said, joe, I'm gonna play it back. I said, but did you just say, this is gonna be more than a billion dollars when you're done? He goes, yeah. I go, okay, I'm gonna report that. And that will probably be my headline. Are you okay with that?

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

He looked down. He goes, yeah, that's okay. And I was like, that's when I knew. I always knew Joe was a straight shooter, but for him to take that step, to sound the alarm and go, A billion, and then to up it, double down and go 9 billion, was incredibly courageous of him. It really was. And then to have the governor say what he said. So I'm glad you said that was incredulous, because Joe might be conservative on the 9 billion.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes. And.

[Jay]

And he didn't really deserve to say. He was speaking without fact was outrageous. Joe's involved in the cases. He. How would he mean. He's not talking from fact.

[Rachel Paulos]

So the word. The phrase you used is exactly how I would describe Joe Thompson as someone who's been, you know, his friend and on the other side of the courtroom from him. He is a straight shooter.

[Jay]

Yeah, I agree.

[Rachel Paulos]

And if he gives you a number, it's because he has facts, evidence, documents to back it up.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Rachel Paulos]

And he is not someone who recklessly throws out something as important as a number, particularly a number that he knows people are going to latch onto.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Well, that's why when we stopped the interview I made, I wanted to ask. You said a billion.

[Kenny]

I'm going to go hyperbole.

[Jay]

I'm going to go with a billion. Are you comfortable with that? I even gave him a second opportunity to say, you know, on second thought, maybe not say a billion. And I would probably would have honored that. You know, as a reporter, that's tricky, but I probably would have honored it. But once he said, no, I have seen the cases.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

And he also said to me, and then he later said this publicly, I couldn't report it at the time, but now, since he said it publicly, he said in that housing stabilization program, which had just kind of started to be unearthed, he goes, jay, I'm looking at that. And he goes, that alone is over $100 million, could approach $200 million. And I can tell you right now, I think that's 90% fraud.

[Rachel Paulos]

Wow.

[Jay]

And I couldn't report it at the time. Wow. But think about that one program. 90% fraud, coming from Joe.

[Rachel Paulos]

Right.

[Kenny]

Where do you suppose Joe will land?

[Rachel Paulos]

He's gonna land on his feet.

[Kenny]

Private, though, right? Private practice.

[Jay]

Well, could he go somewhere in doj, Department of Justice in Washington or something?

[Rachel Paulos]

I hope that he returns to public service at some point in some capacity. But he's got street smarts. He graduated from Stanford, so he's got the paper credentials. He's got.

[Kenny]

Does he have the patience? On the day he walked, people close to me said, oh, my God, he's got to run for governor. Does he have the patience to do that? You guys both know how politically is he?

[Jay]

I would say no. Joe would rather do the people's work. As a prosecutor, you know him better than I do.

[Rachel Paulos]

I admire Joe very much, and I think he would succeed at anything he.

[Jay]

Puts his hand to do you think he would, though?

[Rachel Paulos]

Let me tell you this.

[Jay]

What has he told you at dinner?

[Kenny]

This is the report he's trying to get. He's trying to get a headline out of you, is what he's doing.

[Jay]

Rachel, I will tell you what I'm saying.

[Kenny]

Dinner.

[Rachel Paulos]

A lot of people are very impressed by him, whether or not he wants to run. People want him to run for public office. And isn't this what you want to see in your public service? You want to see intellectual ability. You want to see honesty, honesty, credibility, history and honesty, experience and dedication. But for me, the number one thing is character, and that really shines through.

[Jay]

You know, I couldn't even tell you, too, as a reporter, whether he's a Democrat or a Republican, because he's never been the U.S. attorney for Minnesota. He's never been appointed by a president. He's one of the civilian hires.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

He's an assistant attorney.

[Kenny]

He could run as the Joe Thompson party. That's what he could run out.

[Jay]

He really could. Yeah, but that's a credit to him that as a reporter, as an Assistant U.S. attorney, I could never tell where Joe leaned politically.

[Rachel Paulos]

And that's the way it should be when you're in AUSA, correct? Absolutely the way it should be.

[Jay]

Yeah. AUSA, meaning Assistant Assistant U.S. attorney, which is a big difference from what the U.S. attorney does. When you were appointed, you were a political appointee. That's a different animal.

[Rachel Paulos]

At that point, I was a member of the administration. Right.

[Jay]

If you're appointed by him, you're part of the administration. That's how. But Joe wasn't. And so who knows? But to Kenny's point, I'd love to see him. I'd love to see. As a reporter, I think it'd be great to see him run for something. But the little bit I know Joe compared to how you know him, he seems. You know what he told me? He said the greatest honor an attorney could have is to work in the U.S. attorney's office as a prosecutor.

[Rachel Paulos]

So many people say that that's what.

[Jay]

Joe said, which leads me to believe he dropped. If he thinks that's the biggest honor you could have in serving your country as a federal prosecutor, as an attorney, that leads me to believe that's where his heart and passion lies. And again, what has he told you?

[Rachel Paulos]

At dinner, I'll say this about Being a kid.

[Jay]

Hangston. She knows I'm kidding.

[Rachel Paulos]

I think that being in AUSA is such a unique honor to be able to represent your country, to be able to do good every day, to know that you're fighting for the right thing and to put dangerous people away, to protect the public. I mean, really, there's just so much about the mission. Yes.

[Jay]

And, yeah, he. I mean, he's done incredible work long before feeding our future. Long before that I knew him before feeding our future.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes. Yeah. And I'll just say, I mean, every time you stand up in court and say, I represent the United States of America, that's a U.S. attitude. It was hard for me to do that with. Without choking up. There was never a time where that got old.

[Jay]

Well, and I'm telling you, I'm telling you, federal courtrooms, I've been in all kinds of courtrooms.

[Rachel Paulos]

There's something special.

[Jay]

Oh, yeah.

[Rachel Paulos]

You feel it.

[Jay]

You just go in there and go, man, they are not messing around in here. I would never, ever, ever want to be on the other side of that railing as a witness, defendant, anything. It's intimidating as hell in a federal courtroom.

[Rachel Paulos]

It should be. And it should be because, I mean, and I strongly believe this. We are the greatest nation on earth, and we have an amazing justice system. And even when we make mistakes, we try to own up to them as a country. Right. And we try to constantly make ourselves better, in the words of Lincoln, to form a more perfect union. Right. And so it's a beautiful thing, this American experiment. And I think the ability to serve this country is just. Is a great privilege.

[Jay]

And you think about, like the chief Judge Shultz, right. She said he could be. He's as brilliant as he could be a U.S. supreme Court justice. Right? So when you go into federal court, those are the type of people you're dealing with. People like you from Yale Law School, Joe from Stanford. These are heavy, heavy hitters, really smart guys and women. And then the judges themselves are on another level. That's why it's so intimidating. These people know what they're doing, and they're sharp. Man.

[Rachel Paulos]

We're so privileged that there's so many good people who do choose public service in this country. Not every nation has that.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Could you imagine the coin Joe could make in a private firm to do.

[Rachel Paulos]

Very well wherever he lands? Yes.

[Kenny]

I guess, you know, now that you've been here, I'm going to brag about you being a friend of mine. I'm saying, oh, yeah, I know her very well.

[Rachel Paulos]

Please Do. And actually, you know, it's funny because my. My father still keeps a baby book on me, and it's a. It's a video baby book now. And so they save every. Every appearance he does.

[Jay]

So we're gonna be. We're gonna be part of the baby book.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Yeah, Kenny and I.

[Rachel Paulos]

You're gonna be. You're gonna be fanned by my.

[Kenny]

Nice.

[Rachel Paulos]

By my family.

[Jay]

Nice. Tell dad we love him because nobody. Me. So.

[Kenny]

Ain't that the truth.

[Jay]

Really nice of you to take all this time. I know you were super busy, so.

[Rachel Paulos]

Happy to do this.

[Kenny]

You've been very helpful.

[Rachel Paulos]

Is there anything else that we can.

[Jay]

Talk about that would be your cookies you didn't bring.

[Rachel Paulos]

Next time I will bring. You give me a little bit more notice.

[Jay]

I'll give you more.

[Kenny]

There is going to be a next time, too. I know that already.

[Jay]

I just felt. I told Kenny, I go, you know, we. You know, and I told this to Kenny and others. And if you're in the world of media like us, if you're a reporter or a host like us, like Kenny, and you're doing this day in and day out covering this stuff, just like with George Floyd, you get fatigue from it. Yeah, you do. And it's hard. There's a million other things I'd like to talk with Kenny about and have a good time sometimes on the air, but there's such an appetite right now because this is such a. It's a historical moment.

[Rachel Paulos]

It really is.

[Jay]

It is. And people are really thirsty for the latest information. What do the court rulings mean? Even though that may sound kind of a little bit in the weeds and.

[Kenny]

A little boring, I look forward to the day, Jay, where Minnesota is not in the national head.

[Rachel Paulos]

And if I could just say this, I mean, I'm happy to talk to you as a lawyer, as a professional, as a former public servant, but, you know, I also think about this from my perspective as a person of faith. And I hope we can get to a place where we see in even our opponents the image of God or the Supreme Being, you know, the image of the Almighty and the other person, that person behind the mask, the person behind the placard, the person, even the person screaming at you or blowing the whistle or yelling is somebody with equal dignity. And we believe strongly in this country in the sanctity of human life, and we defend it ferociously, even when we think people have erred, which is why we fight for the rights of even people that we say have committed criminal wrongdoing. We Fight for those rights. And that, again, makes us unique in this country. So I just hope we can go back to seeing the humanity of our fellow Americans.

[Kenny]

This tribe mentality is really hurting the country 100%. You know, I lived up until a few years ago, I lived in south Minneapolis, and none of the politics of my neighbors mattered. We were all there helping each other out. Blowing snow, jumping cars, taking care of the lawn, watching out for you in the middle of the night, you know, and politics didn't matter at all. Not at all.

[Jay]

Didn't care.

[Rachel Paulos]

No, it shouldn't matter. And I like to get back to a place where we just care about each other.

[Jay]

That's why it's so important for you to come on and explain all these court rulings, what they mean. I think it's important for the viewer and the listener to have a grasp of the significance of what's going on in the federal court system right now, because that is the latest thing today.

[Rachel Paulos]

Sure.

[Jay]

Is Homan arriving and what these federal court cases are saying.

[Rachel Paulos]

Yes.

[Jay]

So thank you so much.

[Rachel Paulos]

It is my pleasure.

[Kenny]

Thank you, Rachel. We're gonna take a quick time out and we'll be right back. Jay?

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

I gotta say what we just said off the air. We took a break so you could walk Rachel out.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

She's so awesome.

[Jay]

She's really.

[Kenny]

She has no business. She shouldn't be talking to people like me. That's only gonna hurt her credibility. Seriously. You know, and I told this to Kathy. Kathy Werzer.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

A dear friend. She shouldn't. I've told her, you should not be a friend of mine. It can only hurt you.

[Jay]

This is why I love you. Nothing can be farther from the truth.

[Kenny]

Oh. You know how I live my life.

[Jay]

I know, but that's why you're a perfect host and a perfect questioner. You're asking the questions that guys like you and me have. We're just regular guys going, what the hell's going on here?

[Kenny]

It took me 30 minutes to figure out how to ask that question to her about the governor.

[Jay]

It was perfect.

[Kenny]

And I didn't expect her to hit a home run.

[Jay]

They'll. You know, generally speaking, if it's not a case that's being adjudicated right now, like something before a judge, they might shy away, but something like that, I wasn't too surprised. She's said what the governor did was wrong.

[Kenny]

She was so good and so good at explaining it to dumb dumbs like me.

[Jay]

You and me both, brother. I mean, that's why I told Her, I think I talked to her. Yeah, I talked to her for two days, one day at length. We talked on the phone because she wanted to get an idea what we were after. Right, right. So it took a little while to explain it to her. And I just told her, I said, you know, Kenny and I and Reivers and the rest of us, basically, you know, we're like probably 90% of the people sitting out there listening. You're hearing all these conflicting things. Somebody sounds like an authority on one thing, on, whoa, we can have warrants or not have warrants. And I said, rachel, we need somebody like you, who's a former US Attorney, for crying out loud, to sit down as the expert and tell us what's.

[Kenny]

What and giving us background on all those names we threw at him and.

[Jay]

The chief federal judge overhearing the cases. I just think, you know, even though when you're talking about courtroom stuff, in this particular instance, I mean, you know, this is national, international news. What's happening in the courtrooms today is the latest and the most important. What a perfect guest like Rachel to take time and come sit with. And then she's promising cookies the next time she shows up. She's invited back next week, next week for the cookies.

[Kenny]

She could be a permanent member of this show.

[Jay]

Yes, she could.

[Kenny]

Just should be a co host, you.

[Jay]

Know, she'd be really good at it. But it doesn't surprise me. I've met so many of these people, Kenny, when I interview them and get to know them, like Joe Thompson, Melinda Williams, her Heffelfinger album, they're really smart. I mean, really, really smart. It's intimidating. But yet when you get to know them, they're pretty down to earth, a lot of them.

[Kenny]

And they more normal than what I expect.

[Jay]

More normal than you would expect. Yeah.

[Kenny]

So I want to change gears here because I've been wanting to talk to you about this for, I don't know, a month now.

[Jay]

Yeah, we brought it up a couple times and got to it.

[Kenny]

How do you feel as an award winning journalist who really put in the years and the struggles and dug up the stor, followed through on him and how do you feel about doing all the legwork and all the background stuff for a guy named Nick Shirley, who the only thing he's got going for him is he has a shit ton of followers?

[Jay]

That's exactly right. It's a really good question. I kind of thought about it over the weeks. I'll say this, Kenny. Yeah, he calls himself a journalist. Anybody can really. You can Call yourself that. But the practice of what we consider journalism is it's not as simple as just turning on a microphone and expressing your opinion.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Jay]

And that's kind of what Nick surely did. I don't fault him for that. I would never say he can't do that if he wants to call himself a journalist. I think the viewers and the people that watch him and the people that listen to him need to understand the true definition of journalism is the society of professional journalists has a code of conduct and a code of ethics. Right. Among them, mitigate harm whenever possible. Seek truth and fairness as accurately as possible. There's a whole list of things you do and you're trained to do and give both sides of the story interview everybody involved in the story, not just one side of the story.

[Kenny]

And more than one source.

[Jay]

And more than one source. And what guys like Nick Shirley do when they say they're journalists and independent journalists, when you watch what he did on the daycare centers here, Kenny, he didn't do what I would say is journalism. By that I mean he didn't offer to sit down with the owners of the daycares one on one to get their side of it. He just showed up at their doorstep with a microphone. We would never do that. We would give them opportunity, then we would show up if they don't answer. He never sought to get an interview with dhs that I could tell. So. So it's a little frustrating because it's not true journalism, if you will, but it probably has its place in terms of free speech.

[Kenny]

I've always been on the outside of this looking in and especially with you, it's irritated me to no end what you've had to suffer through because the news watching public, they're just a bunch of dumb shit.

[Jay]

They can be really brutal.

[Kenny]

And so you bring up to the. The fact that Nick Shirley has covered something that 5 Eyewitness News and Carol Levin and all these other places did well one year, two year, five year, ten years ago. And then the viewers, the news consumers blame 5 Eyewitness News Care 11 and everybody else for not promoting it enough.

[Jay]

Right? There you go. We did.

[Kenny]

So you not only do you do all the work, all way the legwork, then when somebody else takes credit for it, you get blamed for not doing it.

[Jay]

Yes, it's so back ass word. And it was interesting. I know at least two of the daycare centers that he featured were featured in my stories a year ago. And it's not by accident that he went to the same places it's not by accident, and it's okay, I guess, in the end, whoever gets the credit gets the credit. But to me, to call him before Congress and hold him up as if. If he would do what I would consider, it wasn't journalism. It was a straight up opinion piece. He just showed up at their door, said, there are no kids here, so therefore there must be fraud. I gotta be honest with you. I haven't seen in any of his reporting, Kenny, any evidence of fraud yet, nor have any of those daycare centers or their operators been charged with any fraud.

[Kenny]

Okay, so you bring up a really good point. If a talk show host or an influencer would have shown up and done that, I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as they don't call themselves a journalist.

[Jay]

Journalist, Corre, you're operating on a higher.

[Kenny]

Plane if you're a journalist.

[Jay]

In my mind, it's a whole different animal in a different role.

[Kenny]

So I asked such about this, expecting to, you know, I like to poke at Joe and get him all riled up. He's usually pretty easy to rile up and such. Just. He's resigned to it. He just said, that's where we're at now.

[Jay]

He's right. That's where we are now. But we shouldn't be resigned to it. We should still try to let the public know this is what comprises what makes up good, fair journalism, and that is researching it. Both sides, facts to back up the claims. You just can't show up at a place say, oh, no kids here, so therefore there's fraud. I kept saying to everybody in the newsroom, because they were looking at me in the newsroom at Channel 5 saying, why is he. They said, you couldn't say there was fraud because you didn't find fraud. I said, exactly. That's why we focused on the lax oversight, because we couldn't prove fraud. So for him to stand out there and say it was fraud. I was really surprised by that, to be honest with you, because there was no evidence of fraud, Kenny, if we're being honest, right, where was the evidence? There wasn't. Now there's questions. He raised questions, but he didn't. In my opinion, he didn't present any facts. That's where it's problematic.

[Kenny]

There's a gal who calls herself an independent photojournalist, and she was pretty strong on Twitter. A few years ago. She disappeared and now she's back. Her name is Rebecca Brannon. Oh, yes, yes. And she just goes around with her camera and shoot what's going on. I buy into what she's doing.

[Jay]

Correct. That's a little different.

[Kenny]

She's not trying to push you one way or the other with her words and what she writes. She just shows you what's happening.

[Jay]

And that is. I'm in agreement with you 100% in my mind, that would be an independent photojournalist, that she's independently doing this on her own, not affiliated with any news organization. But I also like the way she approached it. She was there with the camera. The lens was her. That was her eyes and ears. Right. And she could present it to the public. And there is a place for independent journalism. It's been happening forever. The thing with Nick Shirley was, was it really journalism? It was, go out there with a camera and a microphone and say, there are no kids here. There must be fraud. And he kept referencing, look, this place got 2.3 million last year. Well, okay, it's not illegal for them to get the money. Right.

[Kenny]

I hadn't even considered that.

[Jay]

Yeah, so what if it's 2.3 million? Now, if you told me they got 2.3 million fraudulently, and then here's why. I've got evidence to X, evidence to Y, evidence to Z. If they got 2.3 million. Now, as a news consumer, I get it. I'm like, oh, that's fraud. He kept saying, look, we're here and there's no children here, and they got $3 million. Well, so what? It wasn't journalism.

[Kenny]

I have one more thing, and I think you and I might part company on this. It happened during the George Floyd riots, and now it's been happening again where journalists, reporters, et cetera. They're right there in the mix of the rioting. And they get hurt and they get really pissed off, and in some cases they sue. I am of the opinion that you put yourself in that position. How can you expect to hold anybody accountable for what you were doing there?

[Jay]

Yeah, you won't find any argument for me.

[Kenny]

Really?

[Jay]

No, really.

[Kenny]

Unless I usually get in a fight over this.

[Jay]

No, here's why I'm in agreement with you. We chose to do this. We know the risks when we go out there. I've been in plenty of riots where there's tear gas and the smoke bombs going off and the projectiles going off. A good friend of mine, Joe Caffrey, died there. Just got a projectile on the leg, and Joe did. Joe.

[Kenny]

Joe, one of the best. Joe is awesome. He's been here since the 1800s. Yes, at the very beginning. He still looks like he's 30 years old.

[Jay]

Yeah. Played hockey at Boston College.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

He'll still go into the corner and get a shot.

[Kenny]

Well, I, I, I like the fact that Joe got nicked.

[Jay]

He got nicked. Well, the previous.

[Kenny]

He's got a story.

[Jay]

The previous riots. He got a brick to the back of the head.

[Kenny]

Oh, now, that's no fun.

[Jay]

No, but he, but he came out okay on all of them. But point being, Joe's not suing anybody. You want to know why? He's old school. We know if we go out there and we're trying to document this because that's what we chose to do, there's a chance that could happen. Kenny. Now you got to be a little bit smart, too. I question. I'm going to tell you this. There are a couple of reporters in the market who, when they start posting things on social media.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Kenny]

Are you going to give us names here? You probably shouldn't. No, let's not make enemies.

[Jay]

No, I don't want to make enemies. Enemies. And they, and they. They're overly dramatic about what just happened to him with tear gas or with whatever.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

You didn't see my buddy Joe Caffrey doing any social media posts about getting a projectile. And he sent me a picture of the projectile. And the market's left on his. Almost on his ass end.

[Kenny]

Ouch.

[Jay]

Oh, it's a big hole like that. Oh, yeah. And. But Joe's not. When, when the reporter starts to inject themselves that way, Kenny. And they start talking about how they've been tear gassed.

[Kenny]

Oh, it's the gonzo journalism gone too far. It's Hunter Thompson taken too far.

[Jay]

Yeah, it is.

[Kenny]

Making him the story.

[Jay]

You're not the story, Mr. And Mrs. Reporter. You're not the story. And what's funny is they often duck someplace where it's safe to make this video about their traumatic event with the tear gas. You know, so we're all in the newsroom. Let me tell you something, brother. We're in the newsroom laughing at those people. All right? Making fun of them. Because we all know the risk involved, and it could happen to you. The only time I would disagree with you, Kenny, is if I'm legitimately covering. I'm marked as press. If I inadvertently get tear gassed or shot with a projectile. I get it.

[Kenny]

Have you been gassed?

[Jay]

Smoke bomb only.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Jay]

And then one time during the George Floyd. Floyd riots, Sheriff Hutchinson pushed me and my photographer into a foyer, into a building. It was Haskell's wine in downtown Minneapolis With. With the owner, Eddie. Eddie, yeah, right.

[Kenny]

It's Eddie, isn't it?

[Jay]

Ed? Bald headed. I think it's Ed. Is it Ed? Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred. Fred was in there cleaning up glass. And they did push us in there because gunshots were coming at the cops, toward us. So they felt there were gunshots coming at us and they pushed us into Haskell's. And I got a little bit of a smoke bomb once. No tear gas. And that's it. I got pretty lucky. I didn't get hit by anything.

[Kenny]

My only story along those lines is such made me go down to that Republican convention in downtown St. Paul 2006.

[Rachel Paulos]

Was that.

[Kenny]

God, I fought him tooth and nail. He and I ended up down there.

[Jay]

There was some stuff that went down there too.

[Kenny]

We were a few blocks away from the action and there was a guy in a dark suit and sunglasses talking into his sleeve. And he comes up to me and he says, you guys should move about three blocks to the west.

[Jay]

He's probably right.

[Kenny]

And we did. And sure enough, a few minutes later. And so then I'm standing overlooking Shepherd Road and the park down there, and they started gassing him right below me. And I just stood there like, wow, this is cool. Not realizing all that gas was wafting. Next thing I know.

[Jay]

So you got hit with it a little bit, did you?

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah, I got a little bit.

[Jay]

And you're not gonna go sue anybody, are you?

[Kenny]

No, no, no. It was a great experience.

[Jay]

It is interesting. And if you are smart about it and stay out of the way. And I would always keep the cops near me or I'd try to be behind the cops. I was never in front of the protesters in between the cops.

[Kenny]

That's all.

[Jay]

That's when a little bit of common sense comes into play.

[Kenny]

I wanted to bring that up with you because the morning that they were protesting at the wh, had we five Eyewitness News had Kelsey down there.

[Jay]

Kelsey Christensen.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And they would go to her for long stretches and one of the. I don't know if it was an ice guy or a fed, was really nice to her and said, go stand back here because it's getting. And she obeyed them.

[Jay]

Damn straight you did.

[Kenny]

She went, you know, 30 yards back.

[Jay]

Yep. You listened to them?

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah. And they were very helpful.

[Jay]

Yes. And then. And that's what I would do and most of us would do. We often talk to the cops. They're saying, what's best? Where do you want. Want us? Not that they were going to dictate, but it was helpful to know where's the real threat coming from.

[Kenny]

And it's nice having somebody in your corner.

[Jay]

Yes. And just listen to them and be smart about it. So these reporters that are making these videos about getting tear gassed and everything else. I don't know. I mean, it's okay, I guess, but you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I would never do that in a million years. Yeah, well, you're not the story. You're not the story, but some just, you know, got to get the. To the attention.

[Kenny]

Good show today.

[Jay]

Terrific. Yeah, yeah, Rachel was really good.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

I mean, cuz again, you know, do I want to sit around with you and talk about court proceedings? Not usually. But today a big freaking deal. It's a big freaking.

[Kenny]

From now on, I think she should be our expert. I think anytime we have. Even on the phone or.

[Jay]

Yeah, I'm with you, brother. Good show.

[Kenny]

Thank you everybody for listening. You go once again to news from the Krabby Coffee shop.

[Jay]

See you later.