CRABBY: MN Whistleblower: Forensic investigator says 10s of Billions in Fraud dates back to 2009

Summary

Garage Logic (Gamut Podcast Network)
Episode: CRABBY: MN Whistleblower: Forensic investigator says 10s of Billions in Fraud dates back to 2009
Date: February 19, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, hosts Jay and Kenny delve into the longstanding issue of large-scale fraud in Minnesota's Child Care Assistance Program (CCAP) and related social services. The episode is headlined by an extended interview with "Agent X," an anonymous forensic investigator hired by Ramsey County in 2013 to investigate daycare fraud. Agent X outlines how fraud involving tens of billions of dollars has plagued Minnesota social programs since at least 2009, implicating a lax oversight culture and significant institutional failures. Later, Representative Kristen Robbins joins the show to discuss legislative and oversight responses, further outlining the scope and persistence of the issue and the challenges in enacting real reform.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Scale of CCAP Fraud

Guest: Agent X, Forensic Investigator

• Entry into the Investigation (05:40–06:30)
  Agent X recounts being recruited in 2013 by Ramsey County, after his forensic work impressed an attorney's office contact. He was tasked with analyzing seized evidence from daycare fraud investigations.
  Quote:
  "I sat in an evidence room with about 80 bankers boxes and 17 computer backup files with DHS." (06:00, Agent X)

• Nature of the Fraud (07:00–08:39)
  The fraud revolved around the Child Care Assistance Program for low-income families. Entire daycare operations, some Somali-run, were fraudulent on multiple levels, including using unrelated businesses (like food service) to siphon money. Agent X refers to these as RICO-type operations, but notes there were no legitimate businesses, just layered scams.

• Cash Handling & Banking System Manipulation (10:21–11:44)
  Large sums ($7M/month in some reports) were moved without triggering federal currency transaction reports (FinCEN reports), indicating collusion at the teller level within the bank.
  Quote:
  "The main banks that they went through was overriding the teller, was overriding the FinCEN report. And we found that they went to the same teller every time, and they were also Somali." (11:32, Agent X)

• Internal Collusion Across Agencies (13:04–13:46)
  Individuals involved placed accomplices within county DHS offices and banks to ensure smooth processing and insulation from scrutiny.
  Agent X: "They had someone at the bank, they had someone at DHS. They made sure this was...an inside job as well." (13:35)

• Scope and Diversion of Funds Overseas (14:42–15:47)
  Wire transfers and bulk cash (in briefcases) were used to move stolen funds overseas, especially to Somalia and Kenya, sometimes financing large real estate purchases.

• Quantifying the Fraud (16:09–17:32)
  For just three centers, Agent X estimated $12M fraud from 2009–2012, though only $4M was charged due to the case's complexity. Surveillance confirmed virtually no children attended these "daycares"—the business operations were mostly fictional, with fake payrolls and fraudulent food claims.

• Estimate of Systemic Fraud (19:10–21:16)
  Expanding the investigation, Agent X and colleagues identified 62 questionable centers, estimating $100M/year in fraud by 2013. Extrapolating back to 2009, the true total is “in the billions.”
  Quote:
  "To say it was 50% fraud is not an unfair or not a bad estimate...that's $1.5 billion just in CCAP." (21:16, Agent X)

2. Institutional and Legislative Failure

Key Moments:

• Investigative Roadblocks and Ignored Whistleblowers (22:26–24:11)
  Despite evidence and whistleblowing, prosecutions were limited. Although DHS added an eight-person fraud unit, “the politics started kicking in and they started the prosecutions and investigations stopped.” (23:21, Agent X)

• Covering Up and Deflecting (26:20–27:25)
  Auditing processes were flawed and easily gamed; criminal investigation units were eventually shut down, shifting focus to overbilling, which lacks teeth.
  Quote:
  "None...that collateral damage is heartbreaking...they are not collecting their due money. They're suffering and other people are living high on the hog and not paying any taxes on it." (27:16–27:25, Agent X)

• Partisanship and Lack of Oversight (46:14–50:23)
  While public debate often frames this as a problem of a particular administration or party, both hosts and guests emphasize the issue spans Republican and Democratic tenures, accelerated but not originated by COVID-era changes.

3. Legislative and Oversight Challenges

Guest: Representative Kristen Robbins (32:20–45:02)

• The Covid-Era 'Meals Act' and Fraud Expansion (32:32–33:48)
  Robbins explains how swift relaxation of eligibility and distribution guidelines (via a bill originally authored by Rep. Ilhan Omar) enabled rapid and large-scale fraud to spread from CCAP to food programs such as Feeding Our Future.

• Ignored Whistleblowers and Systemic Inertia (35:50–38:21)
  Despite internal estimates and whistleblower reports pegging fraud at $100M+/year, the Office of the Legislative Auditor (OLA) and DHS downplayed these numbers, referencing only what was proven in court.

• Collapse of Real Investigative Capacity (37:27–39:11)
  Legislators ordered DHS's criminal investigation unit to cease all criminal inquiries, shifting focus solely to overbilling. Robbins argues for an independent, statewide Office of Inspector General (OIG) with real law enforcement and subpoena authority—currently opposed at the leadership level.

• Ongoing Political Obstruction (41:05–42:12)
  There is ongoing resistance to establishing an empowered, independent OIG; instead, bureaucrats prefer an internal, in-house council with little actual investigative teeth.
  Quote:
  "They are in real time, still trying to stop us from figuring this out." (41:15, Representative Robbins)

• Connection to Ongoing and Future Fraud (43:38–44:21)
  Robbins receives ongoing whistleblower tips on new fraud schemes, some in programs not previously in public view. The problem is far from resolved.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Agent X:

• "Everything that you look at is dirty. And that’s the challenge..." (07:35)
• "I was actually told to keep it out of the Fed's hands, to be perfectly honest." (12:08)
• "From a pure forensic accounting point of view, it’s a nightmare...over 45 bank accounts between all the entities." (13:48)
• "That fraud’s about 100 million dollars a year ... not one time." (20:04)
• "If you’re stealing the money and there’s no kids there, how hard is it to make a surprise visit?" (24:22)

Representative Kristen Robbins:

• "After those initial few cases... they shut it down. No more criminal investigations were allowed... [only] overbilling..." (37:27)
• "Anyone who's directly responsible to the governor does not have the independence needed to really clean up this mess." (39:11)
• "They are in real time, still trying to stop us from figuring this out." (41:15)
• "There are people suffering, people that really, really need the help are not getting it due to this." (27:16, echoing Agent X's sentiment)

Jay & Kenny (Hosts):

• "You have to at least raise the question." (46:14, Jay, about Rep. Omar’s motives)
• "This is something we should all be concerned [about]." (50:23, Kenny)

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Important Timestamps

• [05:37] - Agent X describes origin of investigation & massive document review
• [10:21] - Discovery of banks overriding FinCEN reporting requirements
• [14:42] - Wire transfers traced from Minnesota to overseas accounts
• [16:09] - Agent X estimates $12M in fraud for just three daycares
• [19:10] - Scale widens: $100M annual fraud from about 62 centers
• [22:26] - Prosecution/investigation throttled by politics and agency inaction
• [32:32] - Representative Robbins outlines COVID-era policy changes
• [37:27] - Robbins details shutdown of real criminal investigations at DHS
• [41:05] - Speculation on continuing efforts to obstruct serious oversight
• [43:38] - Robbins still receiving ongoing whistleblower reports on new frauds
• [46:14] - Discussion on partisanship, legislative inertia, and root causes
• [50:14] - Bipartisan call for oversight, with both parties represented in reform support

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Tone and Style

The show maintains a mix of down-to-earth, skeptical, and at times sarcastic discussion ("I'm looking for somebody to blame," 45:13, Kenny; "You bring in the great guests," 50:37, Kenny). Both hosts emphasize commonsense outrage at failures of oversight and the human cost of fraud.

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Summary

This investigative episode reveals a vast, systemic, and largely unaddressed fraud problem stretching back to at least 2009 within Minnesota’s public assistance programs. Firsthand testimony from Agent X and legislative insight from Rep. Robbins expose how structural weaknesses, politically motivated decisions, and lack of real oversight allowed at least $100M per year (totalling in the tens of billions) to be stolen—often through well-coordinated, multi-layered scams that were effectively ignored or minimally prosecuted by state authorities. The guests and hosts agree on the bipartisan origins and persistence of the problem, the pressing need for an empowered and independent inspector general, and the continuing risk that major fraud remains undetected and unaddressed. The episode also underlines the real-world harm for vulnerable citizens, as fraudsters profit and needy families lose access to critical services.

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Transcript

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[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

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[Kenny (Co-host)]

Coles we need to set some boundaries.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Okay?

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Between the two of us, I like it. There's too much J. Coles in my life right now.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

You know what?

[Kenny (Co-host)]

We should here's here's the new boundaries. We do not speak to each other Wednesday night through Sunday night.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Okay, I can live with that because.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

We have been on the phone with each other too much, a lot lately. And this week, this piece by David Schultz, not in the Minneapolis Times. It's now been, I think, a couple of weeks and it really opened my eyes to how fraud started in this state. I encourage everybody to go read this. You'll Find it. It's a website called the Minneapolis Times. The headline for the story is the Long Road to How Minnesota's Bipartisan Retreat From Oversight Created Today's Fraud Problems. It's really a wonderful piece. It's by David Schultz. So you knowing my obsession with this, on how it started and how we're gonna get out of it, you found a guy that you talked to last summer with this fella. We're gonna call him Agent X. He's gonna go unnamed because he's still working. I'm calling him a forensic investigator who's been working with the BCA to uncover fraud. And you sent me a piece that you did with Agent X last October. We're gonna have a link to that on our show page. I guess somewhere, maybe on the YouTube page, there'll be a link to that piece so you can watch it yourself. And it's really good, Jay. I mean, I hate to say this to your face, but you really do a hell of a good job.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I wish you were my boss or my agent. One of the two.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Well, they're in the business of telling you how horrible you are so they don't have to pay.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Fair play.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

We know how that works. What I learned in that little three to five minute piece was astounding.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Right.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

So we have with us today, Agent X. Agent X. Kenny, how we doing?

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

It is astounding. Hey, Agent X, you with us?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

I am, sir.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Awesome. Nice to chat with you again. Thanks for taking the time.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Absolutely.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Good to be here.

[Will (IQ Bar Advertiser)]

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[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I thought I told Kenny. So he watched the piece, which is great. And what I'll do to set this up, bit for the listeners and the viewers is this. I did a story back in January, well, a series of stories in January of 2025 on daycare centers and questionable oversight, possible fraud, so on and so forth. You reached out to me and said, hey, I can tell you this, it goes back all the way to 2009. I was hired as a forensic investigator by Ramsey county. And you work side by side with the BCA to investigate daycare fraud here in the Twin Cities. And so naturally, when you reached out to me, I thought, gotta get Agent X on the air. And we did. And what I love about this for Kenny and I, is we can now take, what, half hour if we want, however long we want to get into this and how far back the daycare fraud goes, how much you tried to be the whistleblower and tell people and nobody listened to you. So if you could start at the beginning, tell us how you got involved in this and what you found and.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

What year, if you may.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah, what year? Yeah, what year?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes, absolutely. So I was, I had my own tax practice for a number of years and I had a client who worked at Ramsey county as an investigator in his. In the attorney's office at the time.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Excuse me, the Ramsey county attorney's office.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

The county attorney's office, yeah. And he, he reached out to me. I actually had. Was working. Well, I wasn't working. I had another fraud issue with another client which got me into this. He said, well, whatever you did, you did a good job. I heard back from people. Anyway, he brought me in and said, hey, we have this daycare fraud going on. Wondering if you could dive into the seized documents and everything. And I sat in an evidence room with about 80 bankers boxes and 17 computer backup files with DHS.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

The.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

One of the investigators that was there at the time, who's actually, he's been out, he's testified in front of the legislature numerous times and he got skewered, which is interesting because that tells me that there's other people involved in the COVID up that may not be so, so popular or what would people want to see or.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And I gotta interrupt you because when we say dhs, since there's been so much dhs, references to the Department of Homeland Security lately, you're talking about the Minnesota Department of Human Services.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes. Correct. I'm sorry. Yes. And this is all related to the CCAP fraud, which is the child care.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Which we should explain also child care assistance program, which funds child daycare centers.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes, yes. For low income, low. That they have to make so much money and have so many hours and they get a bunch of their, A large portion if not all of their daycare costs provided. And so I'm sitting in this room with all these boxes and I start going through all the paper that was seized in their search warrants and whatnot. And the how is it. It was put to me and said everything that you look at is dirty. And that's the challenge because at the time they were trying to hang a RICO charge, RICO charges on this operation. And one of the things with RICO is you actually have to have a legitimate business. And there was no legitimate business. It's. I had written on my board, what is the fraud? To keep circling back to that because you go down all these rabbit holes and there were many frauds within the daycare operations, which I thought was interesting in the Nick Shirley stories that have come out and how the transportation is factored in though that wasn't really a factor in my case or the businesses I worked with. But what was interesting was the person who was in charge of this fraudulent or these fraudulent daycares, her brother was doing the food service and was running a food service scam. This was back before Feed Our Future.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And what year was this?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yeah, so I was hired in 2013 and we were investigating years 2009 and 12. We when they finished the tax year in October 15, then we could go after 2012. And it turned out they didn't file their taxes in 2012, so.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So. And you were also sitting in there with the beat with the bca, correct?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes, I had. I sat with numerous three letter agencies at various times. These three daycare. This was the deco daycare fraud case.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yep, I remember them.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

There was one in Apple Valley, so one in Dakota county, one in Minneapolis in Hennepin, and one in Paul and Ramsey. So that made it a little complicated as well. So I went around to the various county people that were hand, you know, that were in charge of doling out the money and approving the receipts and all this and that and the payments, and we started finding out that, well, this person's daughter has this daycare over here and this one over there, and they're all related. And the woman's brother who was running the daycare or the food scam, he got indicted by the FBI for lying to the FBI that he was at the airport bringing Somali men to go over back to Somalia and fight for Al Shabaab. That was the only thing they were able to hang on him.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And I think important to point out these were daycare. There were four daycare centers and they were run by Somalis, correct? Yes, important to point out. And. And you found the fraud going all the way back to 2009.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

2009 was the furthest we could go back because of statute of limitations, just with taxes and whatnot. We requested bank statements upon bank statements from the bank. What was really interesting was, okay, so there's the latest reports have shown what, $7 million a month going out of NSP in cash. Well, how do you make all those cash transactions without generating a FinCEN report at the IRS, which is anytime there's a $10,000 or more cash transaction or a series of transactions totaling that over time, which that time is vague on purpose. There's supposed to be a FinCEN report generated by the bank or financial institution or even the retailer for that matter, at the irs. And the BCA agent went and looked and he goes, there isn't one FinCEN record here.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

None.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

And I'm looking at the transactions now that I fly. I still have my files. And there were tens of thousands of dollars in cash withdrawals, dozens of transactions at that time, and not one FinCEN report. And what we found out was the main banks that they went through was overriding the teller, was overriding the FinCEN report. And we found that they went to the same teller every time, and they were also Somali.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Oh, so you. So the bc. So let's. Let's set this.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Holy crap.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

It's incredible. We should set it up. So here you are. You're hired by Ramsey county as a forensic investigator. You have the Minnesota Department of Human Services with their investigator. You have the BCA with their investigator. Did you have an IRS investigator too, or what was the other.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

No, no, I was actually told to keep it out of the Fed's hands, to be perfectly honest.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Who told you that?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

I was told it'll muck up our investigation. Don't get the feds involved.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Wow.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

You know how they swagger in, Jay.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Wow.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

They swagger in and get their dirty fingers on everything and screw up investigations.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Well, yep.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

But, you know, I watch a lot of tv, buddy.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yes. But I'm sitting here going, wait, if there's a federal offense committed.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Agent X, you gotta tell the Feds, don't you?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

As a licensed professional, I have an ethical responsibility to do that.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

And I was told to stand down and not go to the Feds. Another interesting thing is to go with the teller that was in at the bank. I'll leave the bank's name out.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Sure. Yeah.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Please do.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

There was a person of interest who was on our list that happened to be a daughter of our suspect of this case. And she went. And she was a personal care assistant, nurse. And then she went to work for Hennepin county within their Department of Human Services, which we figured she was there to help make sure that the payments kept getting processed. So this had this in the banks in the counties. They had all angles covered.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So they had someone at the bank, they had someone at dhs. They made sure this was an in, partly an inside job as well.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Contained.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

They knew what they were doing. Yes. And from a pure forensic accounting point of view, it's a nightmare they had between the four entities. They had over 45 bank accounts between all the entities. Now, I've worked at a lot of big businesses as an employee and as a contractor, and nobody has that big of a. From that many bank accounts and that much transfers going in and out of all these accounts, it was. It was a nightmare. We still, we never did find out who the owners were of some of the accounts. And then all of a sudden we start seeing these wire transfers. And we traced them from the bank in town to a bank in the Upper Great Lakes to New York City, to overseas.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Somalia. Pardon? Was it Somalia?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes, Somalia and Kenya primarily.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Okay.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

There were large real estate purchases made in Kenya. And when we saw that coupled with. And Wired doesn't necessarily generate a FinCEN report because it's not cash. But with those two things, we went and got all the accounts that we had, we got wire transfers shut down from those. And this was only one or one operation, three daycares. We'll get to that in a second.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Right.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

But we were actually able to get the wire transfer shut down statewide, if there was any. I don't know how it was done behind the scenes administratively with the accounts that we had. That was easy. That's when they started running the cash and briefcases. When they, when they discovered that, well, if you declare it, it's legal, so why not do it go that way instead of have a. Leave a paper trail?

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Interesting.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

And that's when the briefcases started going.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

You're talking about the briefcases at the airport going over to.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Full of money.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah, full of money, yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So how many were you able to determine with the three daycare centers a grand total amount of what was suspected to have been fraud from 09 to 2012?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yeah. So the number I came up with was $12 million.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Wow.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

The number that they were actually charged with was $4 million. The case was so complicated and they wanted to get it charged and convicted as soon as possible. So that all of the money, how they ended up catching them and how. What their, their crux of their evidence was they put a security camera on a light pole and counting kids coming in and out 24 hours a day. So I was lucky enough that I wasn't sitting in front of that screen for weeks on end because one of the things they claimed was, and they still claim it, while our operating hours aren't 6am to 6pm or whatever.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah. Jay discovered that in his story.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Correct?

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

So that was the thing. They were using that excus back then. And so they had a camera, they went up there and put it on the utility pole and watched the front door, watch the back door and counting kids. And there were no kids there. But sure enough, we get a copy of their, their payroll Records and reports. And there's 177 employees on payroll at over a million dollars for three daycare centers. For one. For one year. For one, for one year.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

What year? Name the year again.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

2010.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

2010.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

I have their W3 and W2s, and there's 17 W2s for over a million dollars, and their revenue is claimed at a million four.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

And I think it's important because the blame game that goes on on social media started during the Pawlenty administration, continued into the Dayton administration, and then really exploded with the Walls administration. I think that's important for the social media people.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, when I first got the payroll reports, they just didn't look right. They were a half an inch thick. And I'm like, okay, even if you have a hundred kids here, and even if you have a lot of turnover that daycares typically do, there is no way there's. These payroll reports are legit. Well, they were getting the kickbacks. It was the moms that were watching their own kids that you need to make a minimum amount of money in a minimum amount of hours. Well, we'll put that into the system. Well, here's the thing, too. They didn't. The person who said they were receiving the check never got the check or direct deposit. They were. It was just a paper scam was all it was.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So everything looked good on paper, but it didn't exist.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Didn't exist. And I would say it didn't even look good on paper because 177 employees, 100 kids, daycare. No way.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I guess what I meant by that is they're trying to at least submit the paperwork to say we're legit. So you're right. It didn't look good on paper, but they were trying to say.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yeah, yes, exactly. The food service billings to this woman's brother, they were billing five times at USDA rates. There was hundreds of thousands of dollars in food payments that should have been tens of thousands of dollars. So the whole operation was just a scam. And that was. Well, so we started digging that, okay, what else is there? What other daycares are out there? And we identified 62 in 2013 that were suspicious. And based on the average of what we had, which was about $2 million a year, just shy. We said, okay, that fraud's about $100 million a year.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So 13 years ago. 13 years ago, you estimated 100 million.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes. Per year. Not one time.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Right. Per year.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Per year, yes. Because I've seen a lot of, like, things on social media that, well, here's the, here's the fraud tracker. And they say CCAP fraud's 100 million. No, it is 100 million per year. And when they started having legislative hearings in 2018, and the DHS employee who went, why? He sat over my shoulder, I sat on the keyboard and drove the computer going through a lot of this stuff, not everything. He goes in front of the legislature and says that and he just gets skewered and he's, oh, no, it can't be that big. That's over half the program. And that's what's wrong with extrapolation. And, well, if you've ever been through a Department of Revenue audit, they love to use extrapolation. So they play both sides of that coin. And now a 50% program fraud, that is nothing right now. This housing stabilization, 90%, autism, 80, 90%, like so. To say it was 50% fraud is not an unfair or not a bad estimate. And the fact that it's been going in 2009, when we started that, that's 15 years. That's $1.5 billion just in CCAP.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So you, the Department of Human Services investigator and the VCA uncover what you believe to be at the time, hundreds of millions of dollars in daycare fraud each year, and then you blow the whistle because they were prosecuted for less than the 12 million, right? It was less than that. So you blow the whistle and say, hey, even though these three daycare centers are prosecuted for X number of million, we believe if you look at these 62 other questionable daycares, this could be hundreds of millions of dollars a year totaling, you know, at some point, getting into the billions and nothing happened. Is that fair to say?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yeah, they would go in and maybe shut down one daycare per quarter. And granted, these investigations take time. So I'll give them that. And they gotta, they have to get the data, watch the video, get the numbers, blah, blah, blah, build the case and build a solid case. But I think in the year they actually ended, the DHS actually ended up creating a department at that time within oig, they added about an eight person team where I was the sole person doing one thing, and that's the team that started getting squashed, basically. And they started with about one a quarter, and it went on for maybe six or eight quarters. And then the politics started kicking in and they started the prosecutions and investigations stopped.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So if it was $100 million a year for however many years, 12, 13 years, is that fair to say? Would it be?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

I'd say even up to 15, maybe longer before we investigated. Yeah.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So this was in the billions. The fraud was in the billions long before we started hearing billions in the last year or two.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And you blew the whistle along with others and essentially were turned away. Even though they created this eight person team in the Office of Inspector General at dhs, nothing really came of it. This is, you could. Is it fair to say fraud in the billions in the daycare center have been happening since 2009?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Wow, that's staggering.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

How did it start? Who or what were smart enough to start this up?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

That's a really good question and that's something that I haven't been able to uncover. I don't know who's leading the charge. There was some speculation that there were, that some of the accountants and tax preparers that they had were, were in on it, but it never really went anywhere. Yeah, I, yeah. How it's grown and how it spiraled out of control is beyond me. But what, what bothers me is, okay, now we know the fraud is going on. What is truly being done to stop it? There's been a lot of committee hearings. Well, I've yet to see an investigation come out of any of these committee meetings. Now I know you have to build the framework and you got to jump through the legislative groups, they have tried to pass and pass some laws to tighten it up. But I'm sorry, fraud is fraud. If you're stealing the money and there's no kids there, how hard is it to make a surprise visit? The problem is they aren't truly surprise visits. Even though they're saying there are, they are. Somebody's tipping them off and making sure that there's kids there at that.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Right.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

That, that is, I mean, you know, being an accountant and writing an audit report and I'm not slamming the legislative auditor's report at all because it's a vast wealth of information. But an audit report is different than a criminal investigation. Proof is different. Know there's a lot of accountant speak in that legislative auditor's report. Like we can't prove that the money went to Al Shabaab. Well, that's a true statement. But if you connect the dots and you know that this woman's brother is running people to trade over there, there's probably a strong likelihood. You know, it's a lot of terminology and semantics that's going on and nothing smells right. Nothing smells right.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Is it the Audi auditing process itself? If you read David Schultz's piece, he says it's the combination of us getting rid of the state treasurer and then the change in the auditing process without naming names or blaming anybody, could it just be the process is highly flawed?

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

That's definitely possible. And then people take it, figured it out, and took advantage of it. I think it could be that simple. But with all these other programs. And honestly, it's the same fraud in all the programs, whether it's the housing stability, whether it's. Whether it's the autism, there's no patience or service or it's. There's nobody there collecting the service. It's all just smoke and mirrors. And I have a really close friend that they have an autistic son. They've been waiting for funds for a long time since this program became available, you know, and they keep being told there's nothing there.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

I'm glad you brought that up, because there are people suffering, people that really, really need the help are not getting it due to this. None.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yeah, that collateral damage is heartbreaking. Whether it's daycare, autism people, adult special needs, whatever it is. That is the heartbreaking piece that they are not collecting their. Their fair share or their due money. They're suffering and other people are living high on the hog and not paying any taxes on it. And I mean, it's. It is. It's such a terrible situation because these programs are good programs. They're just being abused. Very much so abused. The fact that it. Now that we know that there's this fraud and, I mean, it's starting to, you know, there's more and more talk. The session just opened. I listened to your podcast last week with. With the committee and.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Oh, Senator. Senator Gustafson. Yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yes, yes. I mean, her bill is stellar, and why would you prevent it? And I have my own theories. Yeah, it's exactly what you guys said last week, to be perfectly honest.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Right. Well, we're gonna get into that next. We've got the chair of the House Fraud Committee, Kristen Robbins, is gonna join us after you to talk about that. What I find staggering here, Agent X, which I love to call you Kenny, came up with that nom de plume. Nom de plume. It's awesome. What's staggering, what we can end this on is you can say as a forensic Auditor Working with DHS, working with the BCA, you can confidently say from 2009 on, there were billions in fraud in the daycare program. Long before we heard about billions.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Just within the last year, most definitely, without a doubt.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

All right, we're going to end it there.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

All right.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

That sums it up. Thanks for joining us.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

I have a feeling this won't be the last time we talk.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

No, probably not.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah, I've got. We have all sorts of unanswered questions, but thank you so much for joining us today.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Anytime, Jay, you reach out to me, I'd be more than happy to. It's kind of in a weird spot that I was brought in kind of on this random thing to do this and now it's just blown out of control.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

And I'm sitting there going, I told you so.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Well, thanks for. Thanks for getting in touch with me after I did my stories. Otherwise I would not have known about any of this. So thank you. We'll talk again.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Absolutely.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

All right, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with Representative Kristen Robbins.

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[Kenny (Co-host)]

So this morning, Jay, getting ready for the show. I'm bopping around the websites and reading everything I can about it and I come across An Alpha news piece. In the headline, Representative Kristen Robbins, how Relaxed Covid era Rules Fueled Minnesota's Biggest Scam. And I'll just put it bluntly in Kennyspeak. I sent you a text saying, what's the deal with Kristen Robbins? And you said, oh, my God, great guest.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

I'm gonna call her.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I know her. I fortunately got to know her last year.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

You know everybody, Cole.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Not everybody, but I happen to know Kristen. And I thought, well, on short notice, maybe she would help us. And she did, of course.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

So she's right here. Thank you for joining us, Ro.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yep. Thank you, Kristen.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Thanks for having me.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So let's start with what Kenny talks about. The latest where you talk about the COVID era relaxation of things. What? In a nutshell, what is that all about?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

So I was trying to show in the Senate testimony, the timeline and the major fraud in Minnesota seemed to start with the child care fraud that I know you were just discussing with your last guest and people involved in the child care fraud. Then in Covid, Representative Ilhan Omar passed a bill called the Meals act that relaxed all of the guidelines around the child nutrition program so that people could get food out of restaurants and get it as takeout. And there was no more eligibility requirements. And several of the normal guidelines in the school nutrition program were gone. And then those people who had been involved in the child care fraud learned about that, and they morphed into the Feeding Our Future groups. And Feeding Our Future is one group that everyone knows about. But there were two other site sponsors. One was called Gargar Family Services, and one was called Partners in Quality Care. And those were also probably $250 million scams as well. But those aren't as well known, and those haven't been prosecuted. But it was. It was multiple site sponsors, and they all seemed to know about the relaxation of the guardrails from the Ilhan Omar bill.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

You know, I did two stories on partners in Quality Care simultaneous with Feeding Our Future. And I gotta be honest with you, did two stories on it. I was the first one on it. Cause I got a tip on it, and it really never went anywhere. Representative. It just kind of laid there, which I always thought was kind of interesting. So now to hear you.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

I always found it interesting, too. No charges were brought. They were required to dissolve. But that's all that happened. And I would love to know more about why charges weren't brought there.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah, this whole thing, as Kenny and I started talking about it today, how far back it goes is really astounding. Right and you're talking Covid era. We just had on a Ramsey County. He was hired by Ramsey county as a forensic investigator. He worked with DHS, he worked with the BCA from 2009 to 2012. They uncovered $12 million in fraud with three daycares. Then they took it a step further and they dug a little deeper and found 62 questionable daycare centers 13, 14 years ago that they estimated when they extrapolated the numbers out to be about $100 million a year in fraudulent activity for daycare centers. So I said to him at the very end of the interview, I said, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying $100 million a year in CCAP childcare assistance program funding, 100 million extrapolated out of your investigation a year. That would mean, if it goes back to 2009, we were in the billion dollar plus range of fraud long before the Minnesota U.S. attorney's office said a billion dollars or more. So if you go back to 2009, you could easily say, correct me if I'm wrong, tens of billions since 2009 without exaggeration, based on the testimony of this guy.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Yes. And it's crazy. The OLA report that came out on the child care fraud in March and April of 2019, so early in the Wahls administration at that time, there was a whistleblower in that report that said the estimate of $100 million of fraud a year. And the OLA, Jim Nobles at the time kind of said, well, we can't prove that. And the only number they went with was what had already been proven in court when there was credible whistleblower testimony at that point saying the $100 million a year.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And you know what's interesting about that?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Everyone kind of backpedaled and said, well, it's only 5 to 6 million, but they knew they had credible whistleblowers inside the agency. And from your guy in Ramsey county at the time, guessing it was 100 million at least.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And you know what's interesting about that? So the guy we just interviewed now who we had to protect his identity because he still does this work, he worked with that guy at DHS who came up with the hundred million per year. He worked side by side with him. He said, we sat there and watched each other's work. So the guy you're referencing in that OLA report is the guy he worked with. So if you go with that representative, they have no reason to lie about it. They're professionals, they have ethics. They gotta live up to they have an oath they take like it's easily in the billions, long before we got to the first person to say over a billion, which was the U.S. attorney's office. So it's been a systemic problem for at least 17 years.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Exactly. And what's worse is that after those OLA reports in March and April of 2019, that criminal investigation unit for childcare at DHS that you're Agent X was proudly working with, they were told they had to stop. So no more criminal investigations were allowed out of the Child Care Fraud Investigation unit. Now they had to stop all criminal investigations, all partnership with bca, and instead focus on over billing. And so now they were only allowed to look into over billing. And if they found over billing, they had to refer it to an internal DHS committee called the overbilling committee, which still exists, and they would decide if they were going to try and recoup payments. So there was no more criminal investigation. After those initial few cases where they got five or six million dollars and a few convictions, they shut it down.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So this kind of speaks to what Kenny and I talked about last week with Senator Gustafson, the need for this very critical position of an independent statewide office of Inspector General. That's a really big deal. And to what you're talking about, they shut down the investigations at dhs. If you had this independent office of Inspector General that would not be allowed to be shut down. The OIG would be handling it with subpoena power, with law enforcement power. And I know you saw or heard or saw the podcast with Gustafson last week. Did you see what's happening with this coordinating council where they're discussing something other than the Gustafson bill. I just was curious, after you saw that, what's your reaction to that?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

It's unbelievable. They have been looking for ways to shut down an independent investigation of the executive branch all along. And when it passed the Senate, then they tanked it in the House on purpose. The acting Commissioner of DHS is the one who testified against it, saying we didn't need it. There was no vote in the House. And now instead of passing the bill bill that passed the Democrat led Senate 60 to 7 this session. They're looking for alternatives without real teeth. And that's what happened when the governor rolled out his so called fraud prevention plan last fall. He appointed his own Inspector general, a retired judge. But anyone who's directly responsible to the governor does not have the independence needed to really clean up this mess. And the group that we had doing these criminal investigations in the child care agency that got shut down, they had law enforcement power. They were subpoenaing documents, they were doing surveillance, they were getting cell phones and computers and doing forensic analysis, and all of that got shut down. That was already happening in dhs, and it's no longer happening.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

That makes me. That makes me think somebody trying to cover something up, doesn't it?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

I would think so. It sounds like.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Certainly hints at it.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

At the very least, I smell a rat.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Right? Because once you start shutting down criminal investigations, what could be the possible motive, right? I don't know the answer to that.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

But we. We all go there right away. That's the first thing.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

First thing think is why would you shut it down? And why would you ignore this DHS investigator who worked with our guy that we just talked to, who testified to $100 million a year over a decade? Well, he testified more recent than that, but he said it was happening more than a decade ago. Why would you ignore that? Why would you ignore that?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

And why are you still trying to shut down the independent Office of Inspector General all these years later by creating an alternative that doesn't have any law enforcement power?

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And I looked up.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

They are in real time, still trying to stop us from figuring this out.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And here's another thing interesting. In those minutes that I couldn't get into with the podcast last week or the time we had in the television news story, in those minutes, Representative Robbins, they talk about codifying, putting into statute, making it law, this Office of Inspector General coordinating counsel. All right, making it become state law. Why would you want to do that? The only thing I can think of would be you would rather have that than the independent statewide oig. Because if you codify this council, it stays in house, if you will. Am I interpreting that correctly, do you think, or.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Yes. And then they can say, oh, we passed an Inspector general bill, even though it won't have any teeth and won't do anything. There's no way it's something that's not. Not fully independent is passing the house.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Don't they realize, don't they understand this makes us jump to conclusions right away? I mean, this. This is a red flag to me. And the other area where I've jumped to a conclusion is this Meals Act. I have been told, or I read somewhere a couple of weeks ago that Representative Omar tried to get this passed a number of times and it was shut down. But then when Covid kicked in, it was rushed right through. Is that true?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

You know, I haven't heard that, but I Certainly can look at the legislative history in Congress and try to figure it out. But that would be very interesting if that was true.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

And if, if in fact that's true, that makes me look askance at her and her motives. Were they peer or not?

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Fair question.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

I won't speak to anyone's motives. I just look at the facts. And the facts are that that Meals act opened the door for the larger Covid fraud scandal in the country and we are still paying the price for it. We've had to date, I think 78 indictments and 61 convictions and there's so many more to go. And from the COVID fraud, that's what morphed into the autism centers and the sober homes and the non emergency medical. Like it's all a web. Which I showed in my last committee hearing and I'll show again next week in a new web. But it's all very interrelated.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Are you worried that there's more fraud that we don't even know about yet?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

I'm sure there is. I get whistleblower reports every week. Some of them are in the same lanes, but some are new. Like the hearing we did in December was new material on adult day services and assisted living facilities that really hadn't been talked about publicly before this.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

This bill, the Gustafson bill for the statewide office of inspector General already through the Senate. So it's now up to the House. There's gonna be an interesting hearing tomorrow I think in the House. Government ops tomorrow morning. I believe the bill's gonna come up. Do you? I mean it's hard to predict. I know, but do you see that it will come out of the House or do you think it's going to die in the House Again?

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

I hope it comes out. I really don't think fraud is a partisan issue. I think there are people in both parties who want to stop the fraud and clean this mess up. So I hope my colleagues on the other side of the aisle will join us. It passed the Democrat led Senate with strong bipartisan support 60 to 7. So I don't know why it can't have strong bipartisan support in the House. I'm hoping we get it through.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I talked to a source today up there who said they expect it to not even get out of that committee tomorrow.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Wow.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

So we'll see. It's 8:15 tomorrow morning. I'm gonna pay close attention and see what they do with it. But hey, thanks. On short notice. I know you gotta run. You got other stuff to do. Thanks. For joining us on short notice. I really appreciate it. Representative.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Yeah, well, thanks for all you're doing to uncover the fraud and expose these problems with us. We really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

We'll chat again, I'm sure. All right.

[Representative Kristen Robbins]

Sure.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Let's take a quick break and we'll come back again. Jake.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Okay.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

I'm looking for somebody to blame. Seriously.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

I'm looking for how to create a program.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

The only reason I'm here is we've gotta find somebody to blame. We've gotta put somebody in the public stocks or tar and feather them and run them out of town.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

You know, when you think about it, Kenny, if it goes all the way back to at least 2009.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Well, that's why I'm glad you brought that up. That's why I brought that up. Because in the socials, it's a partisan issue and it's Democratic policies that got us to this point. And I would love to agree with that. But the trut of the matter is it's bipartisan policies that got us here. It was Ilhan's meals program that I'm pretty sure she tried to get through a few times. And then when Covid hit the gates, you know, the floodgates opened up. Now, my question has always been, and I've brought this up before on gl, what did she know? Were her intentions pure or. You know, and it's hard not to make that comparison with Ilhan being Somali, you had to.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

You have to at least raise the question.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah, at least. And she. She defends it, and she said she would. The many articles I've read, that she would not go back and change anything.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And I. I guess that's the position she would almost have to take right now.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah. Explain the governor's actions. I don't understand that.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I. I don't either. It's hard.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

And he says in statements that he's trying to deal with this and this is the only thing on his plate. But from my standpoint, it seems like he's trying to sweep it under the rug.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Well, I think what he's trying to do now is it's become. Once the U.S. attorney's office put a dollar figure at nine, well, first it was a billion, then it grew to 9 billion. I think he, you know, is his legacy now, as he's done right. As he's trying to move on, I think it's part of his legacy. I think I talked to a couple of people in the last couple of days who seem to think he now does want to fix it. Because he doesn't want his legacy to be the governor who did nothing with fraud. Right.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

You know, but you can play it careful. But I think this is his legacy, frankly.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

It could end up being all the.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Things we learned when he was the VP candidate combined with this.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I mean, when you look at 2018 and 19 with Office of Legislative Auditors reports. Kenny. That's right. That's right at the beginning of his. His tenure. And you can't escape that part of it. To me today, to hear that forensic investigator say hundreds of millions each year for the last 10, 12 years is even more staggering than what we've been hearing about for the last few years. That is staggering. It puts it into the tens of billions of dollars, which is really, really incredible when you think about it. And all the red flags that were there. And here we are with nothing. Nothing resolved yet.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Well, we've got, what, 82 convictions.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

82 convictions. But in terms of small players and to put up the guardrails that need to happen so it doesn't continue. When you asked Representative Robbins, it was a great question. Do you think there's more we don't know about? And she just said, yeah, yeah. Because I'm hearing from whistleblowers all the time and I can tell you I've received a new tip about a new type of fraud that I'm not ready to talk about yet. I told you about it last night.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yeah, it's nonstop. I think they're not only what you discovered, there's probably more. So, you know, and I should mention, I should amend what I just said. Amy Bach is in jail. She ran Feeding our future.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Feeding our future.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Correct.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I mean, there have been convictions, Some things have happened. But remember that took the federal government to do that. That was the U.S. attorney's office. Where was the Attorney General for Minnesota on some of these? That's a fair question.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

In hiding, Avoiding the topic.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

I don't know. But.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

So where do we go from here with the show? Do we keep chasing this? Should we get a hold of the U.S. attorney's office now that Joe is gone and try to get find out what they're doing? Are they going to keep pursuing this?

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

We certainly can. They're in such disarray right now, if you will, with 14 people leaving and a new U.S. attorney? We can certainly try, but I think this issue, at least through the session. Right. The next few months, is going to be the issue that we should. Yeah, we should definitely try to find the latest information, new sources of what might be another avenue of fraud, which, as I told you last night, I got a pretty good tip about something because it's. Unfortunately, I don't think it's close to even being over, to be honest with you.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

You know, when. Representative Kristen Robbins, Republican, Maple Grove.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yep.

[Agent X (Forensic Investigator)]

Yep.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Running for governor, by the way.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Representative Heather Gustafson, Democrat.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Democrat.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Yep. On the same page, this is a nonpartis.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah. Correct.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

This is something we should all be concerned.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

And when it's 60 to 7 passed out of the Senate, that's as strong a bipartisan, especially in this day and age. So. Yeah, I don't know, Kenny. We'll just keep watching it, man. We'll keep following, see where it takes us. All right.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Wonderful job, Jay.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

You bring in the great guests.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah, that was good today. Good stuff.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

And just, I just want to thank everybody for listening and watching news from the Kirby Coffee Shop.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah. We broke some news again today. And what's my. What? Am I not supposed to talk to you again from tonight till Sunday?

[Kenny (Co-host)]

We're not going to speak till Sunday night.

[Jay (Host/Interviewer)]

Fantastic. It'll be bliss.

[Kenny (Co-host)]

Call me after I've gone to bed, okay?