CRABBY: No Peace for the PEACE Act: Ryan Callaghan on Conservation, Mining, Wilderness & Wildlife

Summary

---

Garage Logic – "No Peace for the PEACE Act: Ryan Callaghan on Conservation, Mining, Wilderness & Wildlife"

Date: June 24, 2026
Host: Gamut Podcast Network (Garage Logic/The Krabby Coffee Shop)
Guest: Ryan Callaghan (MeatEater Podcast, President of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers)

---

Main Theme

This episode delves into modern conservation tensions—specifically the proposed “PEACE Act” in Oregon (a ballot initiative aimed at banning hunting, fishing, trapping, and livestock farming)—and the broader debates over government regulation, wildlife management, the role of activist groups, public lands, and resource extraction (notably the Boundary Waters mining controversy in Minnesota). Ryan Callaghan joins to offer pragmatic analysis, share stories, and champion coalition-building and engagement in conservation policy.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The PEACE Act in Oregon: Background and Dangers

• Overview:
  The “PEACE Act” is a proposed Oregon ballot measure seeking to designate all hunting, fishing, trapping, and animal agriculture as animal abuse, thus criminalizing them. Even tribal and scientific exemptions are not granted.
• Petition Drive as Warning Signal:
  • Over 126,000 signatures collected, indicative of significant support—even if ballot initiatives often fail the first time.

    "It's a signal that here's, you know, a hundred thousand people that say agricultural practices as we know it shouldn't exist, and neither should hunting, fishing, trapping, even commercial fishing." — Ryan Callaghan [06:07]

• Signature-Gathering Tactics:
  • Deceptive sales pitches oversimplify or emotionally charge the issue (e.g., “if you love animals, sign here”; invoking words like ‘torture’ or ‘suffering’).
  • Many people sign without understanding full implications, some even being license-holders.
• Potential Consequences:
  • "If you can't farm, how are we going to eat? Is this a movement to get us to be vegetarians? I don't quite understand what's going on here..." — Jay [09:07]
  • Huge economic impacts: billions of dollars from hunting, fishing, and agriculture in Oregon alone.
  • Loss of state income from licensing.

2. Wildlife Management: Why Regulation Matters

• Human vs. Natural Management:
  • Government involvement is a necessary evil; "nothing screws up a good thing more than government involvement. But then, on the other side... absolutely needed... because truth be told, some of the humans... are just scoundrels." — Cal [02:01]
• Animal Rights Groups' Shortcomings:
  • Activist groups like PETA spend more on billboards than habitat; they often don’t fund tangible wildlife improvement.

    "If you were to give... just the billboard money that PETA spends, you'd be looking at a significant increase in wildlife producing habitat in North America." — Ryan Callaghan [14:09]

• Unmanaged Populations = Ecological Imbalance:
  • Removing legal hunting/trapping likely increases disease, starvation, and loss in ground-nesting birds due to surplus predators.

    "If you take the management of these animals out of the mix, it's going to be bad for those animals, number one. And it's going to be bad for the birds that nest on the ground." — Cal [16:18]

3. The Role of Ballot Initiatives and Policy Risks

• Power of Citizen Initiatives:
  • Ballot measures can bypass state government checks, especially when enacting constitutional amendments.

    "If this were in Minnesota... and it passed, then it goes into law, there would be nothing the governor and the legislature could do to reverse that." — Jay [12:20]

• Repeating Pattern:
  • These initiatives often re-appear on ballots; failure once does not mean disappearance.

4. Public Participation and Complacency

• The Need for Engagement:
  • Excessive public apathy ("we get old and angry, we know that the finger points both ways") is a real obstacle.
  • State agencies often struggle with outreach to hunters/anglers for input; only "10 responses back to the whole state" for Idaho Sage Grouse management.

    "Oftentimes... we know that the finger points both ways... providing feedback and accountability too..." — Ryan Callaghan [32:25]

• Citizen Science Encouraged:
  • Participation in surveys, feedback, volunteering, and stewardship is critical.

5. Conservation Is a Balancing Act: Regulation Is American

• Deep History of Overuse:
  • All modern conservation efforts trace back to near-disasters (bison, beaver, birds).

    "Every good conservation win that we have in this country has come from the precipice of the biggest conservation mistake, the lack of conservation." — Ryan Callaghan [28:12]

• Adapting with Technology and Demography:
  • Regulations, bag limits, seasons: "Regulations... are truly American. Even though... we landed on this continent, that was... no longer the king's game... And then... we quickly realize, like, boy, if somebody doesn't say the unpopular thing here, we're gonna have to find new jobs." — Ryan Callaghan [29:17]

6. Minnesota’s Boundary Waters Mining Controversy (38:12)

• Copper Mining Near Pristine Waters:
  • Congressional action rolled back a mining moratorium.
  • Risks: Sulfide mines interact with water, risking sulfuric acid creation and leaching of contaminants.

    "What we stand to lose on this project is a third of the fresh water in the entire US Forest Service system." — Ryan Callaghan [52:44]

  • Economic arguments vs. irreplaceable natural assets.
• Uncertain Outcomes:
  • Mining projects may seem distant but have persisted since the 1970s.

7. The Value of Public Land & Access (58:20)

• Personal Stories:
  • Host contrasts being “spoiled” with private hunting land vs. crowded, “combat hunting” on Minnesota public lands.
  • Ryan emphasizes the unequaled value of large western public lands, where “the only time... I have felt truly free... unencumbered” was snowmobiling far from crowds. [59:25]
• Threats to Public Land:
  • Privatization/commercialization efforts arise every 10 years; organizations like Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (BHA) act as watchdogs.

    "The idea of public lands about every 10 years comes under great threat because people out there who want to see it privatized and commercialized try their hand at making that happen..." — Ryan Callaghan [62:15]

8. Backcountry Hunters and Anglers: Boots on the Ground

• Volunteer-Led, Policy-Focused:
  • BHA focuses on policy engagement and grassroots stewardship—trail maintenance, fence removal, replanting, and habitat improvements.

    "We need equal representation for our plumbers, as our teachers, as our rocket scientists, hunters, anglers, farmers, ranchers... these places are stewarded in perpetuity." — Ryan Callaghan [63:06]

• “Front country to back country” concept:
  • Loss of close-in “easy” public land ramps up pressure on remote public land.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the PEACE Act’s signature campaign:
  "There's probably folks who have hunting and fishing licenses because... they weren't paying attention." — Ryan Callaghan [07:55]

• On animal activists’ real-world impact:
  "They don't advocate for animals and build habitat or... sanctuary type preserves... you give... just the billboard money that PETA spends, you'd be looking at a significant increase in wildlife producing... habitat..." — Ryan Callaghan [13:59]

• On unintended consequences:
  "Imagine turning your house cat, who's never been outside, into the wild. That thing's going to get devoured within hours. And that's what happens with the mink that get freed." — Cal [19:37]

• On regulatory history:
  "Every good conservation win... has come from the precipice of the biggest conservation mistake..." — Ryan Callaghan [28:12]

• On watershed risk in mining:
  "...a third of all the fresh water in that whole U. S. Forest Service system." — Ryan Callaghan [53:22]

• On the need for participation:
  "States... are not good marketers... rarely... get those programs out there." — Ryan Callaghan [32:25]

• On public land access:
  "Anyone... that steps out onto public water or a public beach understands... big chunks of National Forest... It’s exactly what we're dealing with." — Ryan Callaghan [64:23]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• PEACE Act Introduction and Stakes [03:21–07:23]
• Signature tactics and social science of ballot initiatives [05:01–07:44]
• Economic & Legal implications of a ban [06:29–13:24]
• Activist spending vs. conservation outcomes [13:47–14:34]
• Predator regulation and ecosystem health [15:23–17:27]
• Wolves, management, and historical overkill [21:22–23:40]
• Conservation as an American tradition [28:10–29:17]
• Sportsmen's relationship to wildlife agency data [31:45–33:37]
• Boundary Waters Mining Debate (scope, risks, returned value) [38:12–56:42]
• Public Land Access, Perceptions, and BHA’s work [58:20–71:33]

---

Tone

Conversational, sometimes irreverent but passionate and informed, deeply rooted in practical experience and regional identity (“seat of Gumption County”). The hosts are candid with criticism—especially toward government agencies—but equally self-effacing, emphasizing their love for public lands and common sense.

---

Further Resources

• Backcountry Hunters and Anglers
• MeatEater Podcast: "Cal’s Week in Review"

---

Summary prepared for listeners who missed the episode—covering all central topics, insights, and the heart of the lively conservation debate, with Cal and Jay probing, debating, and sharing stories alongside Ryan Callaghan’s pragmatic conservation wisdom.

Transcript

[Ryan Callahan]

Support for this podcast comes from Progressive, America's 1 motorcycle insurer. Did you know? Writers who switch and save with Progressive save nearly $200 per year. That's a whole new pair of riding gloves and more.

[Jay]

Quote Today, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and

[Ryan Callahan]

Affiliates national averaged 12 month savings of $197 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between October 2024 and September 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[Jay]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Cal]

Garagelogic isn't just another podcast. It's a trusted voice with a loyal audience.

[Ryan Callahan]

Every day, listeners tune in and pay attention.

[Cal]

Pay attention to the businesses we feature. When you advertise with garagelogic, you're putting

[Ryan Callahan]

your brand in front of people who listen and act. We're number one in Anguilla and we'll

[Cal]

make your business number one with G. Ellers. Here's what one of our clients had to say. Hey, it's Pete Arnold from Hire It Pro. And I've used garagelogic to promote my business for years and I have seen great results and new clients for my services from the GL audience. I recommend it to any business looking for new customers.

[Ryan Callahan]

GL ers are pretty awesome.

[Cal]

You just gotta ask for an introduction. You just heard how garagelogic delivers results for our advertising partners. Now it's your turn.

[Ryan Callahan]

Reach our engaged audience of G allers

[Cal]

and grow your business by contacting account executive mark [e-mail] that's mark.ellisbi.com Put your message where it belongs, right in the

[Ryan Callahan]

ears of listeners who trust garagelogic.

[Cal]

J. Coles yes, sir. So when it comes when it comes to wildlife and wild places, nothing screws up a good thing more than government involvement. But then, on the other side of that coin, government involvement is absolutely needed these days to regulate and manage hunting and fishing and trapping. Because truth be told, some of the humans that walk among us are just scoundrels. So we've got that going for us. But then what we also have going for us is the animal rights activists who who probably do truly love animals in their heart and they fight for animal rights. But in a lot of cases, they do more harm than good for the animals that they are trying to help. And that's the topic of today's Crabby Coffee Shop, Jay. And here to help us understand that volatile mix is Ryan Callahan from Meat Eater Podcast and Cal, the newly appointed president of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. Welcome to the Crabby Coffee Shop, sir.

[Ryan Callahan]

Hey, thank you so much. Very happy to be here. I got some Midwest board members that were like, oh, my God, I've been listening to this show or your companion show for their entire lives.

[Cal]

Garage Logic, probably.

[Jay]

Garage Logic, yeah.

[Cal]

Oh, that's Logic.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And, yeah, they were. They called me. Right? You made some announcement last week.

[Cal]

I did, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And they were like, oh, my God, now you're really a celebrity.

[Cal]

See, you don't. You might not realize this, but you and Steve and everybody on Meat Eater Podcast, all of you guys are my best friend, and I realize we've never met, but seriously, you guys are my best friends. And when you're doing that podcast, I'm actually talking to you and responding. I'm like, wait a minute, Steve, let me give it a word. So this is really exciting for me. And I called you with a whole long list of topics, starting with what's been happening in Oregon and the. What they call the Peace act in Oregon. And for those of you that are listening and watching that don't know what the peace act is, it's a proposed ballot measure seeking to ban all hunting and fishing, trapping and livestock farming in Oregon. If enacted, it would remove the legal exemptions that protect these activities from the state's animal abuse statutes. Now, now, when hunters and, I guess, ranchers look at this, Ryan, they go, nah, no, never happened. No chance. Even if it doesn't happen, this sets precedent, doesn't it?

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, it's. It. It does. In the fact that there would be a account of signatures. Right. Of.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

People who signed the dotted line, so to speak, on. Oh, this shouldn't exist. Now, there's a little bit of weeds here in the fact that the way signatures are gathered are. You know, anytime there's a citizens initiative or when folks are collecting data, the volunteers out there probably typically have some sort of an incentive to get people to sign. And I've experienced it here in Montana on issues that I had already studied up on and actually agreed with, but was really blown away just from a social science perspective to have the conversation with that signature gatherer. Because I was like, you are not representing this issue at face value at all, but you have found a sales pitch that would get anybody on the spectrum.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

To sign this petition.

[Cal]

Yeah. What.

[Jay]

What's the.

[Ryan Callahan]

And so. Yes, but also no, so it does. It's a signal that here's, you know, a hundred thousand people that say agricultural practices as we know it shouldn't exist, and neither should hunting, fishing, trapping, even commercial fishing.

[Jay]

Even commercial fishing, right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Correct.

[Cal]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's the list. Okay. All licensed hunting would be classified as animal abuse. Sport and commercial fishing would be criminalized. Trapping, legal trapping, including pest and wildlife management, would become illegal. Farming and ranching, raising animals for food, dairy, eggs and fiber would constitute animal abuse. Scientific research and tribal rights. Oregon tribes are not exempted under this proposal. And yeah, you mentioned the signatures. 126,000.

[Jay]

That's the part that jumped out at me. So you got 126,000 people who think this is a good idea. How many more are out there? And I was interested. Ryan, you said a pretty good sales pitch. What was their sales pitch? How would you frame that? What'd they do to get that?

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, I don't know. I don't know what this one is, but I would imagine it would be something very simple that says, hey, if you love animals and want to see them exist in Oregon, sign here.

[Cal]

Yeah. And I guarantee you they use the word torture or something like that. Are suffering. You know those, those big dramatic words.

[Jay]

Yeah, of course.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. You know, it depends on the audience, but typically, Matt, it's, it's meant to. I bet there's, there's. Of that 126, 000, there's probably folks who have hunting and fishing licenses because, you know, they weren't paying attention. And you know, what you said earlier is correct. Folks who are in the know and involved and understand how conservation works across North America, we don't take these things seriously because we're just like, how could that ever be real?

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And so they, they do catch us on our heels. We're not, not on our toes when these things come around.

[Jay]

And when they get to this point and they can get it on a November ballot with the petitions, what have I experienced as a reporter for many, many years is even if it doesn't pass the first time they bring it back, most of these ballot referendums don't pass on the first attempt. So they got a. I mean, it's not a significant groundswell at 126,000 based on population in Oregon, but it was surprising to me that there was that many people willing to sign this petition, which on the face of it just is outrageous because essentially, if you can't farm, how are we going to eat? Is this a movement to get us to Be vegetarians. I don't quite understand what's going on here, to be honest with you. What the end goal is must be vegetarianism. I don't know.

[Cal]

Yeah, it's a political goal, is it not, Brian?

[Jay]

Both maybe.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, it's a like a virtue signaling type of. Of thing. You know, it's like you can't participate in agriculture at any sort of. Any sort of scale. I mean, I was. When you called me earlier, I was on. On the back porch with the dogs and had a ground squirrel come underneath the fence at my last remaining garlic plants. And I hate that, you know, and the dogs were right after it. So there's three garlic plants out there and then that squirrel was imperiled.

[Cal]

Now you're talking my house with squirrels and strawberries. No measure will keep a squirrel out of the strawberries no matter what you do with their getting in.

[Ryan Callahan]

And you know, we're not feeding people plants in this day and age with. That doesn't have an impact to animals as well. Right.

[Cal]

So

[Ryan Callahan]

the. It is. It just can't happen. It would be great to have a proactive response to this Coalition building is really the key here. Like we need the, the hunting, angling, outdoor recreation communities to, to really find some common ground here with our agricultural communities. And you know, when we have those coalitions like that, they're pretty unstoppable. The economics of the state of Oregon, when you, I mean, just fishing alone in the state of Oregon is in the billions of dollars you add hunting, outdoor recreation, you're talking about many billions. And then you add agriculture into that. You don't fight against that and get elected in any state.

[Jay]

Right, but this is kind of crazy. If it passes, there's no. The governor really couldn't do anything. The legislature couldn't do anything. They couldn't veto anything on this. This would be a ballot measure straight up and down. Correct. So if by some craziness it passed, what would. Maybe Oregon would take it to court. Oregon, the state of Oregon would have to do something. I just don't know what it be.

[Ryan Callahan]

The state of Oregon would have to do something. I think, I think you could do an inaction where it just sits on the proverbial governor's desk with no signature and the clock runs out at some point.

[Jay]

I don't think they would need a signature from the governor if it's a constitutional amendment to the state constitution. Usually these ballot measures is not something. That's why they go the ballot route rather than a legislative route because.

[Cal]

Oh, really?

[Jay]

Yeah. Oh yeah, because there can be no veto by the governor.

[Cal]

I don't like that. You zip your lip. I don't like what you're saying.

[Jay]

I'm not familiar with Oregon's laws, but I'm pretty sure it operates like most states. If this were in Minnesota and this was a ballot measure and it passed, then it goes into law, there would be nothing the governor and the legislature could do to reverse that. And so that's why they take this route, because it can't be changed if it's approved.

[Cal]

But there's a tremendous loss of income for the state.

[Jay]

Correct.

[Cal]

Think if that happened in Minnesota, Minnesota would lose all fishing license, trapping license, all the variety of hunting license, I mean all the stamp stuff, drought stamps, pheasant stamps, and on and on and on. That would be a tremendous loss of income.

[Jay]

Yeah. And I gotta believe the attorney general in Oregon, unless he agrees with this thing and the governor, they would probably do something legally to try to stop it. See what I mean? Like the state would take him to court. You would hold? Yeah, I think they would. Because to both of your guys, point. Yeah, I love to fish and I'll hunt occasionally, but this is big business and economy. Right. And no politician wants that much money going out the door.

[Cal]

Okay, so Jake Kenny, like you said

[Ryan Callahan]

at the, the very beginning, right. It's like what these, you know, animal rights, animal activist groups spend on these campaigns is just mind blowing.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And it's because they don't put money anywhere else. Right. So they don't advocate for animals and build habitat or.

[Cal]

Bingo.

[Ryan Callahan]

Sanctuary type preserves or anything to promote the proliferation of wildlife or the health of wildlife. And you know, if you were to give, you know, backcountry hunters and anglers or really a number of, of groups in, in the hook and bullet wildlife space, just the billboard money that PETA spends, you'd be looking at a significant increase in wildlife producing and sustaining habitat in North America.

[Cal]

You know, you were talking about that with Steve on the show earlier this week on Meat Eater Podcast. And you're right. If the work that organizations like you guys do or Ducks Unlimited or any of the local pheasant groups that we see locally around the state, if they would get involved with those, it would be such an incredible help to the management of these animals. And let's talk about, okay, say this ban goes into effect in Oregon two years down the road, what is going to happen to the population of these animals now that they're no longer regulated or managed? Will we see an increase in disease among say, coyotes or raccoons. Pick your animal.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know. Yeah, I think there'd be some. I mean, there's some very fun speculation to be had, especially if it becomes that within the boundaries of Oregon, neither the state nor the feds could come in and, and take care of nuisance animals. Right, right. Black bears do a lot of damage just when they're having fun.

[Cal]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And. Yeah, you know. Yeah,

[Cal]

we talked a lot of.

[Ryan Callahan]

You can speculate as to all the, the repercussions there. The, the amateur biologist in me says, I don't have the data for that,

[Cal]

but I don't think you need it. Well, we talk a lot about the, the new phrase here in the last few years has been nest animals like coyote, fox, skunk, which are unregulated here in Minnesota, raccoon, which you can only go after during trapping and hunting season and the damage that they do. So when we're out there trapping and let's say I take 30 raccoons out of a 800 acre area, all I'm doing is keeping that population at one level. It's not. It doesn't mean I'm going to put a big dent in the raccoon population. And you can say the same about coyotes. Take 10 coyotes out of this ecosystem, 10 coyotes will replace those coyotes. That's just how mother Nature works. And I'm worried that if you take the management of these animals out of the mix, it's going to be bad for those animals, number one. And it's going to be bad for the birds that nest on the ground. Ducks, pheasant, I don't know where grouse nest.

[Ryan Callahan]

Turkeys and grouse.

[Cal]

Yeah, turkeys, definitely. And it just has songbirds. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And of course, songbirds for sure.

[Ryan Callahan]

And you know, like, there's a big part of Oregon that we can just say modern terms is. Is largely kind of unmanipulated. You know, it's big range land if it's private, if it's public, it's Bureau of Land Management, some, some high alpine U.S. forest Service and, you know, amazing country. And the, the rest of Oregon would be like that wildland urban interface. Right. Where things are highly manipulated.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And constant. And they have been for a really long time. And you know, it's those areas that you're going to see some truly wild stuff happen in this apocalyptic future that we're talking about here.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And who do you know? I suppose nobody has broken down the demographics, but I'm curious to know who are these people? Is There political persuasion. They've got to be liberal, correct? I can't imagine they're not. Are they socialists? Who are these people? And who's the 126,000 people who think this is a good idea? Do we know?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Again, I would put my stake on the fact that the folks who signed that survey, for the most part, do not understand what they're signing. And, you know, as to the true instigators, I would put them in, you know, their own special category of, you know, just something.

[Jay]

We don't know what. They're just something. Yeah, it's, it's socialist, maybe.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. Extremist.

[Jay]

Yeah, extremist is good.

[Ryan Callahan]

The more appropriate thing.

[Jay]

I mean, they're trying to force us all into vegetarianism is what they're doing.

[Ryan Callahan]

And the funny thing is radical extremist.

[Cal]

Yeah. Like in the case of, throughout the years, we've heard of the activists going into a mink farm, say in the middle of the night and then turning all the mink loose and, you know, saying, we freed the mink from their prison. What they don't realize is those mink are actually pretty stupid and they rely on being fed and they're not really good at, I mean, imagine turning your house cat, who's never been outside, into the wild. That thing's going to get devoured within hours. And that's what happens with the mink that get freed. It's, it's a guarantee of instant death. So either way, the mink is going to die.

[Jay]

They're freeing them to their death.

[Ryan Callahan]

I love that.

[Cal]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we have, I mean, even

[Ryan Callahan]

when we talk about transplanting wolves into populations where, where wolves already exist, or when we move large carnivores because they were a nuisance, you know, in that wildland urban interface, just, just like your, your dogs going through it here at this house because we got a new puppy, there's a, there's a pecking order and there's a certain territoriality established out there. So I, I, I really love my encounters with all the wild critters out there. But the pragmatist and realist of what happened is things get very bloody before there's, there's any sort of mutualism established.

[Jay]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

So when we take that wolf and into another wolf's territory, one of those things is probably going to die.

[Cal]

Yep. Yeah. Because they are very territorial. And so, you know, it's not just a big issue with wolves out west. It's here in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa too. Especially with the deer Herd. And the ranchers, the few ranchers that we do have, you know, they're losing, they're losing baby cows, calves to wolf populations all over.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep, yep. It, it is, it's, it's, it's a really hard conversation have with, with folks who come from a completely different mindset. Right. Where it's, you know, the, the, the data that we have and, and this has only occurred in modern times in, in Alaska. But the pressure that we have to put on a wolf population to see that population decline year over year is an over 60% harvest rate for several seasons back to back. That's significant in order to see that population, Cliff.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And when we did extirpate wolves, we did that prior to gps, prior to two way communication. And, and we did it simply by injecting horse carcasses with cyanide. Yeah, right. And that killed everything else that came in contact. Not smart with that horse carcass or, or ate the thing that came in contact with that horse carcass.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And, and we just don't do that anymore.

[Cal]

Nor should we. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You may not like how we manage these things, but I just ask that you recognize the fact that we are managing. We're not eliminating or extirpating.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And we have the knowledge to do

[Cal]

that

[Ryan Callahan]

and it's not what we're doing.

[Cal]

Right. So I'm a big fan of that as much as, like I said in my intro, I, I don't like government managing the population, the herd, whatever, but we don't have any choice. It has to be managed. Are there in my question, in the back of my head, I have this question. Yeah, but what about say, yeah, the backcountry of Alaska that hardly ever sees a human being. How are those populations managing themselves without human intervention?

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, I mean they, they certainly see a lot of human intervention. Right. Like that whole landscape has been hunted for 30,000 years.

[Cal]

Okay.

[Ryan Callahan]

And through a wide variety of means. You know, caribou in particular are seen as, you know, like the life sustaining food source not just for people, but also for, you know, the dogs. Dogs, which, you know, historically like the main means of travel and you know, the harvest rates for subsistence hunters up there are incredibly high. There's been a lot of recent changes to that, but you know, for a long, long time it was like five caribou per person per day and that meat was, was stacked up. That's a lot.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yo, it's, yeah, I mean it's, it's a lot, but. And used in a lot more Ways than. Than just pulling out roast from your freezer when you feel like it. Right, Right, right.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And then as pressures have changed, Right. Our management styles have changed. So it used to be a traveling subsistence hunting culture that interacted with those resources. And, and, you know, there's lots of evidence to suggest. Right. Like when we talk in the lower 48 about Pishkin's, the. The buffalo jumps. Yeah, right. There's.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's been many documented sites where, yeah. The native people went, oops, we ran way too many bison off this cliff. There's no possible way, no possible way with our means of preservation to use this resource that is highly valued and revered. But we just happened. There's six of us and we just ran 60 of them off a cliff. Right?

[Cal]

Yeah. And all we needed was 10. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, yeah, as we progress and then you have this new means of moving people around the, you know, the locomotive to backcountry airplanes to, you know, more established population centers, the, the new technology like a freezer, you know, the means for people to put things away for long periods of time. You know, those have put different pressures on these resources. And we have this wild history in America of self regulation and then demanding that that self regulation be nationalized on a federal scale, which is how we got the refuge system and duck stamps and bag limits and Lacey act and because we went, oh, my God, if we keep this up, there is not going to be any of this left. And we've seen it in real time, year over year over year, and which has led to just hunting seasons, you know, officially recognizing when you can take the surplus off the landscape and when that surplus needs to be left there so it can reproduce, you know, be. If, if birds, fish, big game, it's all, all the same. Right?

[Cal]

Are you in my head right now?

[Ryan Callahan]

Conservation. Every good conservation win that we have in this country has come from the precipice of the biggest conservation mistake, the lack of conservation.

[Cal]

Yes.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Cal]

Yes. Yes.

[Ryan Callahan]

And we've, we've walked ourselves back. So, you know, regulations, rules and regulations of our natural resources are, are truly American. Even though when we. We landed on this continent, that was, you know, it was no longer the king's game. Right. And, and we were free as individuals to go out and, and harvest unrestricted for ourselves. And then, you know, that naturally ran its course and, and be it timber, fur, bird feathers for your hat, we, we quickly realize, like, boy, if, if somebody doesn't say the unpopular thing here, we're gonna have to find new jobs.

[Cal]

Well, I'm sure you know this, but if you go back to the mountain man period, the British were trying to trap every single beaver out there, just as a competition, kind of a competition thing to control the American trappers and the American Fur Company and all that conservation wasn' part of it. It was, let's get every single beaver out of there. And then, of course, you brought up the railroad, and we all know what happened with the bison and the Native Americans and the shooting and the waste and on and on and on. But, boy, you really hit something close to home with me, Cal, when you brought up managing the herd. And it's my opinion the older I get, the more angrier I am at the Minnesota dnr. I think every day my anger goes just a little bit, a little bit higher. And I've come to learn that the only people that truly know what the population is are the sportsmen that are out there. The DNR does their best, but in. In the state of Minnesota, in my area, which is west central Minnesota, number one, we have so many turkeys, we could just open up a turkey season from April 15 to Memorial Day, and that's not how it is now. You have to pick a week, a Wednesday through a Wednesday when you want to hunt turkeys. The deer herd hit and miss with their regulations. I'm in an area where there's too many dough, so we can shoot bonus dough, which is fine because we love the meat. So I usually take three deer every year, and that lasts us a whole year with the meat. But now we're seeing a ton of bucks in our area, and I swear, the DNR has no idea. Fisher. When it comes to trapping fisher, there's ridiculous rules and regulations, and you cannot keep a fisher out of your trap. In my area, there's so many of them. Same with otter. I let more otter go than anything else. They're just. They will stumble into. It's like otters want to be in your trap. It's really interesting because trappers will say, oh, it's really special to catch an otter. And I'm like, are you kidding me? They blunder into everything. I said I could set out a pocket gopher set, and I'd end up with a otter in the thing. And that's what causes my rage with the Minnesota dnr. And I honestly, I don't know how to fix it. Do you have any ideas?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, I mean, it's just increasing participation, right? Like, I have spent so much really good time across state agencies and Federal agencies and, and you know, the bureaucracy and, and the frustrations are real, but they also produce really fine public servant folks that are out there like truly to work on our behalf. And oftentimes right. As, as we get old and angry, we know that the finger points both ways.

[Cal]

It does, yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's, it's providing that, that feedback and you know, accountability too. Right. Is following up and there's, there's always citizen science opportunities out there and very rarely are the states like good marketers and good and, and have that ability to like get those programs out there. And sometimes it, it is to address things that we have an immediate ask for such as like overpopulation of fisher cats or, or you know, they're just seeing like a lack of hunter harvest reports. I mean I have a great example in the state of Idaho where they were completely doing the sage grouse management plan and constitutionally the Idaho fishing game has to incorporate public feedback. And they did the public comment period. Every licensed hunter gets a mailer. They did, did what they could to raise awareness outside of that. And they got 10 responses back to the whole state, Iowa.

[Cal]

Yeah, that's the problem. We see those little postcards come in the mail and we go screw them. I'm not telling them anything. And that, you know, they need to know. And I admit I'm, I'm, I used to be that way and now I feel as a matter of fact the trapping one when they, when the little box for fisher, I usually write down I caught 10 fisher and I let them all go because of you people, you know, and I know the guy at the other end who's reading that's going what's with this nut job? You know. Yeah, you people, you people. I want to talk about, I don't know if President Trump has recently helped us or hurt us and I want to talk about that in relation to public land. But we have to take a quick break. I want to talk about the schoonover difference here right now. And it might actually save you from breakdowns this summer. Schoon over Body works and Auto Care Inshoreview. They're going to ensure that your road trip goes off without a problem. So if you are making a trip to the Westier, bring it into schoonovers. They have an extensive checklist of things on your ride that they'll make sure up to snuff before you hit the road. And now hold on here a second Beavis, before you start eye rolling me and talking about this is just a money grab. This is free. That's part of the Schoonover difference. They have our backs folks. They'll check out your ride for them. Get a hold of them, set up an appointment. They are the official fender bender mender of the Twin Cities. So if you've been in a crash recently or maybe you plan on being in one soon, I don't know. Scones are not beholden to any one insurance company. That means that they are only beholden to you and they will be your advocate with your insurance company. So you make the claim in scones. They handle the rest. And this is great. If you only have a minor issue on maybe an older vehicle, ask them about their good, better, best policy. You'll get the service you want and can afford. Schoon Over Body Works and Auto Care right there on County Road E and Lexington and Shore View, the official repair shop of Krabby coffee shop and garagelogic. They're on the web schoonoverbodyworks.com you're listening

[Jay]

to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are to easy easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary.

[Ryan Callahan]

Wait, did you just pay full price?

[Cal]

Don't be that person. Be the smart one at the Twin Cities Savers Summer Online Auction.

[Jay]

Score Jaw Dropp. Save up to 70% off retail.

[Cal]

We're talking tens of thousands of dollars

[Jay]

in goodies just waiting for you.

[Cal]

Dream big.

[Jay]

How about a seven day deluxe Niagara Falls and Toronto getaway from Heart of the north tours?

[Cal]

Boom. Bucket list done.

[Jay]

Or maybe you're more cannonball into summer

[Cal]

with Metropolis Resort stays and water park passes. Or I'm fancy now with a stay at the InterContinental Minneapolis St. Paul Airport Hotel. Or I want my garage floor to look amazing with a new one from Garage Floor Geeks. Or I want to go fishing in Canada at Fletcher Lake Lod.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, we got all that and more.

[Cal]

Just head to garagelogic.com enter keyword auction and start browsing. Bidding and winning Bidding is happening now

[Ryan Callahan]

through Thursday June 25th.

[Jay]

So don't miss your shot.

[Cal]

The Twin Cities Savers summer online auction because paying full price is just embarrassing. So President Trump did a thing and I haven't been able to figure out if this is good or bad. And he has opened up or I should say, not him. He probably doesn't even know this happened. Right. Ryan, his administration and some Republican senators I know is the one in Minnesota here. Everybody's now worried about mining in or near the Boundary Waters. And every state I think is different with the. Can you explain what I'm trying to talk about? He's opened up access to areas previously where we didn't have access. And some of this access includes logging and mining. Am I on the right track?

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, there's a couple. So in the state of Minnesota, there is the Congressional Review act passed through Congress and the Senate to rescind a 20 year mining moratorium in the Rainy river watershed. I mean, right upstream of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area.

[Cal]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

That is, you know, a story that, that's far from over. You know, obviously a very beloved wilderness for the nation. And you know, that lots and lots of hard, hard to throw a rock in Minnesota and find somebody who doesn't have some sort of, of, of a story from, from Boundary Waters.

[Cal]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

Or up there on the gun flint and all that beautiful country. Right. So that, that is one thing that currently kind of reverts back to the state. The, the permit that was issued for that mine, which would be a, a copper sulfide mine.

[Cal]

Yes.

[Ryan Callahan]

Which does not interact with water very well. And therein lies the, the stink is where that permit is. It is mostly water and it's a, you know, it's a boreal forest, gets a lot of precipitation and you can't, you can't dig a cat hole to take a poop and not have it fill full of water right there. So.

[Cal]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

The, and then there's been a series of executive orders that have come out of the White House and yeah, I do think, think you're right there can. I don't. I would have a hard time believing with all the stated interests of our President that he's really tied into some of these executive orders that, that go out dealing with our amazing public lands. But the most recent one was on off highway vehicles.

[Cal]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

And it is in a similar fashion to several executive orders that we've seen where there's a big statement of something that may be to come. And in this case it's a rescission of two previous administrations executive orders. Wonder in the Nixon area era, one during the Carter administration, I believe. And basically saying that across the U.S. forest Service system, roads, trails are going to be closed to motorized use unless posted otherwise.

[Cal]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

And the intent there was to have, you know, a disbursement of pressure on the landscape, both for commercial industries such as logging and for other forms of recreation. You know, land of many uses, right?

[Cal]

Multi use. Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

So yeah, multi use. Land of many use. Whereas like, if you're ripping your dirt bike, you don't want to run into an endless string of hikers on a single track trail. If you're a hiker and you choose to hike on motorized single track, your expectation should be that you're going to get the heck out of the way when you hear a bike coming.

[Cal]

You have just, you've just described what I have gone through because I've been on a dirt bike since I could walk and snowmobiles. And I was introduced to our multi use areas in Minnesota back in the early 90s. And we would throw the bikes in the truck and we'd go down. It's in southern Minnesota, in the bluff country down there. And we would encounter horseback riders, bicycle riders and hikers. And when we encountered horses, because I was originally from the country, I told the boys, now when we see horseback riders, you got to shut it way down, bring it up a gear so you're really low, idle, quiet, because these horses are super skittish. And let's get around those horses quietly and then be on our way. And all the people on horseback were appreciative of this. The bicycle riders and the hikers, not so much. And I, I came to learn that it's kind of a pain in the butt to go ride in these areas just because of the conflicts between, you know, and we're all trying to use and benefit from these trails. Mind you, we're not. And this is something that you deal with. Cal. We never put any effort into fixing the trails or putting, throwing, even throwing money at it or nothing. So some mythical group somewhere was building these trails. What we ended up doing was buying acreage. We had 40 acres and we had a three mile motocross track in the middle of the woods in Wisconsin.

[Jay]

That's kind of sweet.

[Cal]

And it was insanely fun. And everybody left us alone. And more times than not, we would encounter deer on various parts of the trail throughout the day. As we've been riding continually, we learned a lot about conservation animals and destroying ground in order to suit our purposes. We brought in a dozer to Put our track in. That was a serious mistake. We shouldn't have done that. Because what we did was we created big huge rain ruts down all the hills. And then we had to rebuild all that. And we finally learned if you're going to do this, just clear away the branches and the dead falls and make your trail that way and it's a lot easier on the earth. And we also learned that if we're gone for a while, the forest completely takes it over again and you can't even find a trail. So it was a real learning situation. So out west you guys are dealing with that tenfold though, right? On public land. And that's where the problem is gonna lie. It's gonna be maniacs like me on dirt bikes and four wheelers clashing with people hunting or on horseback.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, no, because I mean there's plenty of folks I've hunted off motorcycles and, and pretty much everything you can name at this point. And you know, that is a means of access. You know, what we are truly like defensive of are these carve outs. That would be areas where, you know, we the people Congress of the United States have carved out wilderness areas to be free of motorized use, wheeled conveyance. And then we have this thing called the roadless rule, which was a 600 plus public meeting that included industry and you know, instigated by fiscally conservative Republicans to point out all these areas that roads just don't stick too well because of what you mentioned, like highly erodible soils.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Things where, you know, our maintenance costs for, you know, we have 380,000 miles of road in the US Forest Service system right now that people are paying to maintain.

[Cal]

Oh wow.

[Ryan Callahan]

More than the interstate highway system.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And we're paying to, to maintain that. And, and you know, so we brought the logging companies in, we brought that land of many uses, multi use ethos and said what are the areas that we can draw a line around and say we're not going to build in here. And some of that was to preserve, you know, the, the high end of the watersheds where spawning occurs, our cold water reserves where we don't want that erosion to come down and cover up the spawning beds. Or we were. And, and that's like somewhere that last old growth timber is there holding up those hillsides and those steep drainages. And then some of us truly like high alpine terrain where there, there is not timber. Right.

[Cal]

Yeah. Nothing gross. Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's scrub brush country at most.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

And. But those areas we've set aside to say we're not going to build new roads for any purpose with the exception of doing fire mitigation. Very concise fire mitigation. Like in that wildland urban interface and certain necessary habitat jobs, which can also be like the removal, mechanical thinning of, of timber or you know, you know, big projects for endangered species, stuff like that. So. But a lot of that designated roadless area has old road systems on it. Right. Where that timber has already been harvested and then where the, the rest of it. Right. Is you have, you know, thousands and thousands of miles of trail and those often are subject to that. It's open to certain things and not other things. Or they can be open to all things, but they're only open for a certain time of the year. And that's typically to protect calving and wintering areas.

[Cal]

Sure.

[Ryan Callahan]

So when, you know, our big game populations are the most susceptible to. What people don't understand is like when these big animals go to winter, they are in a state of, there's a better term for it. But essentially like their body is slowing down to be highly conservative on the calories. They're not bringing in a lot of food and they're not moving very much either. And they're, they're truly just overwintering. So they're, they're, they're in a kind of a stasis mode. They're, they're staying on certain slopes moving very little. And then when we come through with snowmobiles or going in there to shed hunt or, or do whatever, run the dogs and we move that herd, then you can have really significant die off just from pushing a herd from one mountain to the next. Something that you see during hunting season as just like a normal, every single day part of life for an elk herd. Right.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

But at certain times a year, it is brutally hard on those animals. And then you have, you know, your, your variables that Mother Nature throws at your freezing rain events, stuff like that, where certain winters are just, you know, brutal on, on the big game.

[Jay]

So I want to bring you back to the Minnesota mining up there by the boundary waters. Ryan.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Question I wanted to ask you brought up some. I was under the understanding that the mine wouldn't be in the boundary waters per se. Right.

[Cal]

No, that's correct. Correct.

[Jay]

Yep.

[Ryan Callahan]

So.

[Jay]

But the concern is.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yep. Same watershed.

[Jay]

Watershed. And the concern is even if it's not in the runoff could still be a problem. It could still pollute the waters, which you're saying the watershed. Is that possible?

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like if we pee Off a side of the mountain here in Montana, it flows downhill.

[Cal]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

My understanding is it does the same in Minnesota. Right, Right.

[Cal]

So it's.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's in that area is the go. It's upstream.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

So yeah, the. It looks weird on the map because the. That the water flows north there. And so the, the mining area is south of the boundary waters, but the water flows north. So.

[Cal]

So it's in the area.

[Ryan Callahan]

It looks a little weird on the map.

[Cal]

It already has where we've been doing mining before. Jay Babbitt.

[Jay]

Right.

[Cal]

Embarrass Virginia, et cetera, et cetera. That area south of Ely. Yeah.

[Jay]

All part of the range. Yeah.

[Cal]

Yeah. All part of the.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And that's iron taconite mining.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. So that's what Minnesota does. This particular mine is copper, and that is like a big, big part of the rub. Right. Like when copper sulfide mixes with. With water and oxygen, you get sulfuric acid. How do you get the tailings from this copper deposit into a spot in that area where it's not going to come to come in contact with water and then somehow contain that runoff as well? So part of me, part of the concerns on that one, I can't help

[Cal]

but think that this is never going to happen. I just. We're so, in my mind, we're so far away from this happening that it probably won't happen. That's what I've concluded. I mean, all they're doing at this point is just exploring. And I figured the political winds are going to change so much in the next eight to 16 years that this will probably put. Be put back on the table. But that's just one Dum Dum's opinion.

[Jay]

Well, it's been going on for quite a while already.

[Cal]

Well, and that's why I'm so relaxed.

[Ryan Callahan]

It's been going on since the 70s. Yeah.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Jay]

I didn't realize it was that long.

[Cal]

Yeah, it's been going on a long time. Well,

[Ryan Callahan]

what I scratch my head at. Right. Is, you know, I want people to have the economic opportunities. We certainly consume the copper. Doing stuff like we're doing right now. And we as a society have said, like, we need this stuff.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

At the same time, what we stand to lose on this project is a third of the fresh water in the entire US Forest Service system. Right. So shouldn't we have a system to where we look at our fresh water reserves as a critical natural resource alongside what we should. Critical minerals?

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Jay]

And what did you just, you know,

[Ryan Callahan]

it was just not.

[Jay]

I got It. Ryan, I got to interrupt you before I forget.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Jay]

What did you say? How might. It's possible. How much are we going to lose of the fresh water? What was that quote again?

[Ryan Callahan]

It's, it's not a guarantee. It's just what everybody I've talked to in, in the, we, we call them the expert side of things. That what we have up there in that watershed, right. In the Superior National Forest is about a third of all the fresh water in that whole U. S. Forest Service system.

[Jay]

I did not know that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. And, and in the Midwest, which you know, used to be our manufacturing powerhouse here in America along with the northeast, beginning like it was not that long ago that there was more cancer in the water system than there were fish. Right. And at, you know, going into World War I, World War II, America really went, oh my God. We have like systemic malnutrition in the United States and we have a lack of access to fresh, clean, fresh water. And we took a lot of steps to make our potential fighting force healthy in rural America, but through poor practices that we've since regulated. You know, we didn't by and large, if you were near these big, big manufacturing centers or downstream from like you did not have access to water, that was good for you.

[Cal]

So amazing.

[Jay]

So a third could be lost, is that what you're saying? That's a possibility. A third of the fresh water could be lost.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah. And I don't know what the remediation of that type of contamination would be, but you're, you're looking at a highly porous substrate up there as well. Right. Like there's water in the rock. So getting that stuff to, to go away, plus you have, it's sulfuric acid and is that going to leach? We all know that there's high concentrations of naturally occurring mercury up there. Is that going to leach more mercury into the water system? Are the fish going to be safe to eat? There's, there's just a lot of questions. And that particular project only has a 20 year lifespan. And so the question that we kept bringing up, right. Is what is the return on investment for the American people? 20 year project. What are we getting?

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Jay]

What was the answer you got

[Ryan Callahan]

facing water, clean water in perpetuity. Right. And a robust recreational economy.

[Jay]

Right.

[Ryan Callahan]

So obviously the, the House and the Senate both, both passed that. And you know, it was certainly something that, that the administration made a priority and that's how it got on everybody's plate. So but like to be very clear here, there's still many steps for that project to start in earnest. So the. The votes taken in the House and the Senate cleared the path to get to this point. But we're still at a point that. That. That project has not started, right?

[Jay]

No.

[Cal]

Hell, I. I've learned a lot about water since moving up here. I've got a well on my farm here that's 21 years old, and it's pure poison. Jay, we cannot drink our water. I'd be better going to cowshit Lake about 100 yards from me and drinking that water with the leeches and bugs than I would my well water.

[Jay]

What? Why is that?

[Cal]

The hell if I know. All I know is we don't. We don't drink our water or use it for cooking. We use it for showering. That's fine, but we do not. And I run a bunch of filters, too.

[Jay]

What does the county say about that?

[Cal]

Tough titty.

[Jay]

They don't care, huh?

[Cal]

No. Yeah.

[Jay]

Wow. I've never heard of that before. Pissed off and.

[Cal]

And. No, it's. It's natural in. In. In the soil. Yeah, it's down there all the time. And you don't know when you're drilling your well, what kind of water you're going to hit until you're done drink. Drilling your well, and then you have it tested and you find out. Oh, my. Gross.

[Jay]

Should I have my well tested or did I just keep drinking it? Because I.

[Cal]

You haven't. Are you drinking right out of your tap? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just go outside to your faucet. Your outside faucet and get a cup of water and you can send it off and get it tested.

[Jay]

I might do that.

[Cal]

Yeah. Because I do that.

[Jay]

Clueless to that. I just assumed the county was watching what was.

[Cal]

Oh, no. So you do have a well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You got to get that water tested. Wow. Cal, I want to change gears. I know.

[Ryan Callahan]

It was nice knowing you, Jack.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Cal]

See you, buddy.

[Jay]

Thanks, guys. Appreciate the. You look out for me. Thank you.

[Cal]

So I realized a few years ago that I have been spoiled my whole life because I have been lucky enough to do all my hunting on land that's been in my family since the 1800s. I have never, ever hunted on public land.

[Jay]

You are lucky.

[Cal]

And we have a. You know, I get into my deer stand about 90 minutes before it's time to shoot, and I can sit there in the woods and I can hear the people rocking by on my gravel a Road at 90 miles an hour going up to the public area, which is just a few miles north of me. And I Feel nothing but pity for them because I figure they're out on that 200 acre public area thing, just elbow to elbow looking at each other. Everybody's shooting at the same deer that's running by at 90 miles an hour.

[Ryan Callahan]

And that's problem.

[Cal]

Yeah. And that's been my concept of public hunting and public land. So fast forward to the early 2000s and I started going out to West Yellowstone to go snowmobiling in the winter.

[Ryan Callahan]

Cool, Scott.

[Cal]

And so we get on a trail right out of west and we ride about 20 miles up to places called like Cabin Creek and Teepee Basin. And it's the only cal. It's the only time in my life where I have felt truly, absolutely free, completely unencumbered by other people. Fences, property lines, people bitching and crying, just riding anywhere and everywhere we want except for the areas where we're obviously excluded. And I realized that my little 600 acres here in Minnesota is absolutely nothing. And then I start watching Rinella meat eater and this guy cannot sit still for two seconds. He'll glass an area and then he's climbing mountains and going down valleys and climbing mountains and he's going after elk and moose and bear and grizzly and everything else. And I realized this is where it's at. This is how instead of hunting the same sloughs every fall for ducks, he's going way out back and he's usually not seeing a lot of people. And this is really amazing. And that that's where you cal and back country hunters and anglers figures in and keeping that access open for people. And I want to be a part of it, but I don't know what to do.

[Jay]

Is there a threat to the access

[Cal]

of all that out there? I mean, all I could do at this point was send you a check. But you need more than money.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, I mean we are a volunteer led organization, BHA backcountry hunters and anglers. And you know, we as staff are there to facilitate you and we need active participants in, in legislation. Focus on the policy, not the politics. We're going to give you the straight dope. You can make up your own mind, hit the action alert and, and weigh in as you see fit and we'll give you our angle as well. Right. Like how we're going to represent our membership. But Jada, to answer your question, yeah. The idea of public lands about every 10 years comes under great threat because people out there who want to see it privatized and commercialized try their hand at making that happen and we as a community, the, the outdoor community, just like we talked about at the top of the hour or you know, we're often on our heels because we don't like paying attention to this stuff. We want to be in whatever version of back country outside that we have.

[Cal]

Yes, yes.

[Ryan Callahan]

And it takes us a while to come around, which is why organizations like, like BHA exist because we are always watching, always paying attention and keeping our membership informed. And we will be in the room at the State House or at the federal level when you cannot be there. And then ideally we're going to facilitate you, you being there when you want to be there too. So it takes representation across the whole spectrum at this point to get things done proactively or defensively, get things stopped or started. Meaning that I truly want to represent the entire spectrum, the socio economic spectrum.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Because we need equal representation for our plumbers, as our teachers, as our rocket scientists, hunters, anglers, farmers, ranchers, to get out there, bird watchers and, and say, hey, we want this. We demand that these places are stewarded in perpetuity. And in that management we maintain access to these places, prolific wildlife, healthy habitats. Right. And anyone in the country, right, that steps out onto public water or a public beach understands like what we're talking about when we're talking about big chunks of National Forest or Bureau of Land Management lab. Like I, I, when we were in South Carolina earlier in the year, we had a lot of people come by and they're like, well, public land, we don't have any of that. Any of that. And I'm like, well, you have the ocean right behind our back. Imagine you're hustling out of town, you got the boat hooked up, you're fighting through traffic, you stop and grab your beer and your bait and you get to the boat launch finally. And instead of getting that nice relaxing feeling of freedom like you talked about. Ken.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

There's a for sale sign there. Yeah, right. Or a no trespassing sign. That is exactly what you're talking about. Exactly what we're dealing with.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

In the west and you see these sales pitches come around where they're like, oh, don't worry, we're not talking about national parks. It's like, well, for our community, we like places where you can shoot guns and run your dogs. And that's not national parks. We're talking about Bureau of land Management and U.S. forest Service, Bureau of Reclamation, U.S. fish and Wildlife ground places that, that provide these, these freedoms to hunt, fish and kind of recreate without going through the ticket kiosk, you know, and those are our public lands, public waters, public wildlife, and they're held in the public trust for us. And right now we are lacking public participation in the process and we're being taken advantage of. Is the public just. That is a cyclical thing.

[Jay]

Are they just complacent? The public's just become complacent and assume it's going to be there forever as it is. And they're not tuned in because they enjoy what they enjoy and they're not paying close attention. Is that what it is? Sum it up.

[Ryan Callahan]

Well, yeah. I mean, because we all have been spoiled. We have an amazing set of opportunities and resources at our disposal. I mean, this is the good old times right now. And if you. I mean, Minnesota, the Midwest is, is a great example. Right. Like, and, and I did just talk about this on Rinello's podcast, but you can Google right now there's articles all across the country talking about, you know, this was front page news in some places. Jay stepped outside on his farm and saw a white tail deer. Right. That was a stop the presses moment in this country for a lot of places.

[Jay]

Right? Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right. Because they were gone.

[Jay]

Right. Never thought of it that way.

[Ryan Callahan]

But yeah, when we started seeing them come back, it was like, my God, you know, my grandpa would grab me. We'd. He loved to eat at this burger place in Billings, Montana. And it had a little lawn out there, and the Canada geese would. Would come and crap on the lawn. And he would make a point of being like, when I was your age, they did not exist.

[Cal]

We're seeing that now with trumpeter swans here in Minnesota, not here.

[Jay]

Yeah. The Canada goose was not. It was what? It wasn't extinct, obviously, but it's just.

[Ryan Callahan]

They just weren't around. Extirpated would be the word.

[Jay]

Yeah. I didn't know that.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Cal]

Jay, when I started hunting deer in Minnesota in the 70s, any buck was a huge success. A fork horn is like, congratulations, you got yourself a buck.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Cal]

And now we're routinely passing them up. It's like, yeah, I'm going to give that one a couple of years.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Cal]

You know, so, yeah, it's been a tremendous change. But on the other hand, you can't find a rough grouse around here anywhere for some reason. I used to hunt grouse here as a kid and they've all. They're fine up north, but boy, around my area in Douglas county, we don't see them.

[Jay]

They're all over my place. They came through one of My windows.

[Ryan Callahan]

Oh, no way.

[Jay]

Yeah, it's.

[Ryan Callahan]

How much cutting and how much burning are you doing? That's like that early successional growth and rough grouse are two peas in a pod. They're, they're tied at the hip. So once, once your forest gets into that maturing phase.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know, grouse will cruise through there. But they like, they like that fresh stuff.

[Cal]

Yeah. Oh, interesting.

[Jay]

Yeah, I got a bunch at my house, that's for sure. I see them all the time.

[Cal]

So is are the back, the backcountry hunters and anglers are there also? I hate the phrase, but I have to use it. Boots on the ground. Are you guys doing anything out there, conservation speaking? Like here, Here we're doing all sorts of crazy things for the deer herd, for the pheasants, on and on and on. Do you guys do any of that?

[Ryan Callahan]

We have a phenomenal chapter there in Minnesota. The Minnesota chapter of bha, they just went up and did some like trail maintenance, trail clearing as one of their volunteer, volunteer projects. Stewardship is how we categorize that. And we have lots of like low barrier to entry events where we try to get a whole mix of people out on the landscape, whatever it is, and it could be something like very family friendly, like, like picking up trash, you know, doing public land packouts and cleanups to, you know, trail maintenance. But then there's running a chainsaw, there's doing burns, there's collecting seeds for replanting, there's replanting projects. And then on, you know, the, the federal level, we just got the Bureau of Land Management's conservation partner of the year award, which is really something to talk about because that's typically awarded to groups that are way, way larger than ours. But we, we routinely punch out of our weight class. And, and primarily what we're doing on, on BLM is we're removing derelict fence and augmenting existing fats into wildlife friendly. So we can remove interior fences and BLM allotments in migration corridors so it allows animals to move in those times a year that we talked about the calving and the winter migration and summer migration unimpeded saves calories, saves calves, saves fawns, and is just better for landscape health and connectivity. And then we can augment into a wildlife friendly fence on those perimeter fences or in some cases with the interior fences, we're installing virtual fence, which is the GPS towers and the GPS collars for your cattle. So sure.

[Cal]

Wow. You've just described everything I've been doing on our 600 acres for the past 10 years only. Our fences are old barbed wire, and I'm just trying to get crap out of there. But yeah, that, that's interesting. And while you were talking, I joined the Minnesota chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers on Facebook, which I didn't know existed. Now I'm a part of it, so that's exciting. Anything you want to cover before we cut you loose, Cal? We got to get all your websites and your podcast.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, you know, I, I think we need to think about all these things holistically, not just the private side of the fence or the public side of the fence. You know, right now we have diesel prices through the roof and constrictions on agricultural goods that we need to, to plant and sow and harvest. And we're losing 2 million acres of private grassland a year in this country to all sorts of forms of development. And that has a huge impact on the public side of the fence. Like, where are people going to go? Right. Like when you're 600 acres, you know, you had to sell out for some reason. Where are you going to focus your attention? Right.

[Cal]

I'm moving to West Yellowstone.

[Ryan Callahan]

And, and what, what we need, right, is to think about this again holistically and form those bonds between this hook and bullet outdoor recreation community that focuses on public lands, make these connections to, to private land. Because when one side of the fence benefits, so does the other. And that's one of the things that we're committed to. And, you know, we just simply call it front country to back country. And when we talk about those threats to public land, typically what we see are attempts to sell off that front country public land. Jay. And it's the easy accessible stuff where the, the dog walkers go, or you might be able to run out and sight in your, your rifle or muzzleloader and go train your dog or, or get that quick hike or run in during the day, and then you're saving your, your bigger adventures for the weekend. But when those front country pieces go away, that's going to put more pressure on the back country. The back country becomes the front country, so.

[Cal]

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[Ryan Callahan]

You know, we need active participants, and that's why I'm so proud and happy to be a part of backcountry Hunters and anglers, as the president and CEO, is just constantly surrounded by motivated folks and trying to find the stop button is the hardest part. Right. Like these, these people work long, hard hours both as volunteers, members and staff, and it's just a really exciting crowd to Be around.

[Cal]

The website is backcountryhunters.org you also do a podcast of your own, do you not kill.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah, we. Cal's week in review on the Meat Eater Podcast Network. And then we have the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers podcast, which we're just revamping and rolling out new episodes now to be a little more encompassing of what we have going on, because we can't keep track of it all.

[Cal]

Yeah. And if you're listening or watching right now and you don't know what Meat Eaters is all about, what are you even doing with your life? Seriously, I. I mean, just watch. Pick an episode, any episode. I've bought so many books where you guys have interviewed the author. I've watched many, many episodes more than twice. Stephen is obsessed with the bison herd across North America. He's obsessed with the mountain man stuff, which I love because I've been obsessed with that for years. And when I go out West, I always stop at famous mountain man locations where they had rendezvous or where there was a fort or all of that stuff.

[Jay]

Of course you do.

[Cal]

So check out Meat Eater Podcast. And Cal, thank you so much. Yeah, that was good. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this. This has been really fun.

[Jay]

Really good. Thanks.

[Ryan Callahan]

No, thank you so much for the opportunity. And you earned me some serious street cred with a couple of our Minnesota board members, so.

[Cal]

Well, that goes both ways, sir. That goes. My son is going to be really impressed. I can't wait to tell my son about this, so thank you very much, gal.

[Jay]

Yeah. Nice meeting you.

[Ryan Callahan]

All right, thank you, guys.

[Jay]

Take care.

[Cal]

So, Jay, I want to do. I want to just. I want to talk a little bit about Warner's dock here, but I want to come back and just a couple final words that I want to share with you some of my public hunting land experience. But prepare yourself, folks, for the next two weeks of summer. This is going to be the best time of the season. If you're on the lake, the fourth of July holiday with friends and family at the lake can be beat. And Warner's Dock in New Richmond and on the web, by the way, Warner Stock.com has a big selection of both Premier and Bentley pontoons on sale right now. Viewing the firework competitions in the middle of the lake from a pontoon. My goodness, the pontoon parades. The taking the pontoon out to the middle of the lake and then using it as a swimming dock. That's so fun. We have to remember, these are the good old Days for the kiddos in our lives. And Warner's doc has your new pontoon ready to make lifelong memories. Check them out online. Warner stock.com or better yet, stop into their large air conditioned showroom in New Richmond and see for yourself. Now on the other hand, if all you ever think about is fishing, believe me, I get that. Warner Stock specializes in alumacraft boats powered by Suzuki, Yamaha and Mercury outboards. And, and they love trades. That means they have a full selection of fishing boats and pontoons. Used ones also in stock from sales to service to storage. Pontoons, docks, boats, you name it. Lifts. Yes, Warner's dock in New Richmond has it all. It's the place for all your boating needs. Check out the inventory@warner stock.com so they. 1 of the. Now I lost it on the map. One of the. What really, really soured me on public hunting is I used to do a lot of fly fishing in southern Minnesota.

[Jay]

Whitewater on the white water down there south.

[Cal]

But I've done the white water. But then south of there and there's a, a creek, I think it's called the Rush River.

[Jay]

Rush River. Yeah.

[Cal]

That goes under I90.

[Jay]

Yep.

[Cal]

And there's a, there's a rest area along I90 that the rush river goes by. And if you park on the north side of the freeway, you can go down, hook up with the river and walk south. What I learned about fly fishing is you trout are really smart. They're paying attention to what's going on on the bank. Right. So you got to be sneak.

[Jay]

You got to sneak up on them. Yes.

[Cal]

So it's the spring of the year, the grass is short. I find a really cool pool in a corner and I crawl up, I'm on my hands and he's with a fly rock. Crawling up behind a tree. Situate myself and I start dropping a dry fly into this pool and having, you know, limited success, having fun. This dad and his son come clomping down the other side of the river and I don't know, the worst today. Hold on. I have to cough. To this day, I don't know if they didn't see me or they did this on purpose, but the kid, that little bastard, he's probably in his 40s by now. This was so long ago, buddy. I will find you. It's my goal to find you one day. Grabs a rock.

[Jay]

Oh no.

[Cal]

And throws it into the pool that I'm fishing. And I stood up and I said, really?

[Ryan Callahan]

Really?

[Cal]

And they just, they didn't say anything and they kept walking Back to their truck. I could not. And these were the guys. We call them worm drowners or worm something, because. And that's fine. I don't care how you fish for trout.

[Jay]

Good. Because that's how I fish them.

[Cal]

But it really spoiled me. The whole experience made me realize this. This is not for me.

[Jay]

And similar things have happened. I fished the Rush river in the Kinney in Wisconsin.

[Cal]

Oh, I fished that river. I love that river.

[Jay]

It's a good river for trout.

[Ryan Callahan]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Yeah. Rush river is tremendous. There's a little town called El Paso, Wisconsin, down there by Ellsworth. Yeah. It's a great little spot. I always get refreshments after. But the same thing with buddies, you know, sneaking up to the hole you want to hit. And when you find a honey hole, you just. Oh, it's the best. Right.

[Cal]

It's the best thing ever.

[Jay]

It is. And we're worm drowners, all of us. I think every now and again I'll throw a spoon, you know? But for the most part, worms. But same experience. People coming up along the rush, talking loud, tossing things, not paying attention. And you're like, you can't trout fish like that.

[Cal]

No.

[Jay]

It's going to screw the whole thing up.

[Cal]

And they will sitting.

[Jay]

They will see. The trout will see you and move. Yeah.

[Cal]

You got to be gone.

[Jay]

Yeah. You got to be stealthy. Yep.

[Cal]

For me, I wanted to use a fly rod. So obviously, the first time out, I was just using a traditional.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Cal]

And I was using a worm because the worm. Fishing trout with a worm, it's easier, but it shows you, and it teaches you where they hang out.

[Jay]

Yes.

[Cal]

Those little riffles and eddies and deep pools. And you learn about the trout itself. And then you switch to a fly rod. And if you've ever caught a fish on a fly rod. Oh, my God, Jay, it is so exciting.

[Jay]

It's way more fun. In fact, it's funny. I started out trying to learn to trout fish with a fly rod.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Jay]

But, you know, I'm. Minimal effort, maximum glory.

[Cal]

Yeah. That's tough. It's a tough way. You're jumping right in.

[Jay]

Yeah. And it was minimal effort, maximum glory. I said, screw this. I'm going back to throwing worms at them.

[Cal]

And.

[Jay]

And that's how I've always fished them. But I have great appreciation for those who can tie their own flies. No, no.

[Cal]

To do that.

[Jay]

Could you really.

[Cal]

I gave it. I gave it all away. I gave it to some. There was a beginner, and I had all the. All the feathers and all the stall the yarn. I had everything. And I realized I hadn't done it in five years and I was never going to do it again. So there was a beginner. I said, here you go. Here's $500 worth of stuff. Fun.

[Jay]

Well, I'm. I. I just. It was too much work and. And like trying to match the hatch with my fly.

[Cal]

Yeah.

[Jay]

It just. It became typically for me, too much work. Too much work. And then I went back to the worm burners and some. Every spoon of spoons. Every now and again, too.

[Cal]

So when I mentioned the hunters north of me during deer season, you can picture. I can. When I hear the shots, I can picture in my mind's eye, this group just shot at that deer running. And then 30 seconds later, there's more shots. That's the next group. And on and on and on like that. And in my world, that's what public hunting is.

[Jay]

That's exactly what it is.

[Cal]

It's a whole different thing, though. Out west, it is.

[Jay]

And when I go deer hunting, I haven't been deer hunting about five years, but when I do up where I live now, we were always on public land. And you're absolutely right. You'd hear somebody shoot at one. Thirty seconds later, you hear somebody else shoot, and you're like, oh, that deer. You didn't get the first one. And the second one, they're shooting at the one. The one the other guy missed. You're, you know, you're pretty much on top of one another when you're public land hunting. That's why when you said you can do it your whole life on private land, you're really lucky.

[Cal]

I have just been so spoiled. And now the. The job of working on this property is all mine and mine alone.

[Jay]

600 acres, Jay.

[Cal]

It's so much work.

[Jay]

I can't even imagine. I've got three acres, and I'm exhausted.

[Cal]

It's so much work.

[Jay]

So do you lease it out to farmers?

[Cal]

No. Oh, there's a little bit of tillable. And yes, we do have a farmer in. We actually pulled that tillable, or we pulled it out of CRP and put it back in tillable. And we like what it's done for our deer hunting because they don't have a place to hide. And plus, the corn and the beans is just feeding.

[Ryan Callahan]

Right.

[Cal]

You know?

[Jay]

Exactly. And then now they're in the middle of a field with nothing there. So the 600 acres mostly is what? Woods, trees, paths, trails. What do you got?

[Cal]

All of that. Wow.

[Jay]

Fantastic.

[Cal]

It's all old farmland the woods used to be pastured. A lot of the CRP and CREP used to be tillable. Yeah, we've put trees in a lot of areas that used to be tillable.

[Ryan Callahan]

Sweet.

[Cal]

That's includes a bunch of lakes.

[Jay]

So how many. How many barns you got? Just the one.

[Cal]

That bar needs to. Don't never bring up a barn in my presence.

[Ryan Callahan]

Okay.

[Cal]

I gotta get rid of that piece of.

[Ryan Callahan]

I love barns, though.

[Cal]

Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Well, people that don't have barns love barns. Yeah. My God. We've gone on way too long. Seriously, this is way too long for a podcast. I'm surprised anybody's still listening.

[Jay]

Well, it was good. Ryan was great, man. There was a lot there, man. He's a wealth of. That guy just could go on and on and on. He knows so much about. It was incredible.

[Cal]

Yeah, I love all those meat eater guys. Ryan Callahan and backcountry hunters and anglers.org

[Jay]

and I love the fact that he knew about Minnesota. I mean, you knew not just about Minnesota, but intricately knew about Minnesota.

[Cal]

Yeah, that was kind of cool. And Steven Rinella, he's from Michigan originally, so he knows all about hunting in the Midwest.

[Jay]

Sweet. Yeah, he was a good guest. He was fun.

[Cal]

Gabe. Thank you very much, sir, as always, Gabe.

[Jay]

Where do they find us?

[Ryan Callahan]

Facebook, Facebook, X Instagram, garagelogic, Spotify.

[Jay]

Yeah, don't miss it.

[Ryan Callahan]

What am I missing? Apple Podcasts.

[Jay]

There you go. It's everywhere. We're everywhere.

[Cal]

Kenny, thank you for listening to news from the Krabby Coffee shop. We'll see you, Jay.

[Jay]

Talk to you later.