CRABBY: Rewards for Failure: The Minnesota DHS Bonus Scandal

Summary

---

Garage Logic – "CRABBY: Rewards for Failure: The Minnesota DHS Bonus Scandal"

Date: May 13, 2026
Host: Jay, Kenny
Guests: Kirsten Swanson (Investigative Reporter, KSTP/5 Eyewitness News), Faye Bernstein (DHS Whistleblower/Employee)
Main Theme: Examination of the Minnesota Department of Human Services (DHS) bonus scandal, where generous "achievement awards" were given to employees—including those tied to fraudulent or collapsing state programs.

---

Episode Overview

This episode digs into the recent investigative reporting by Kirsten Swanson exposing how the Minnesota Department of Human Services (DHS) distributed millions of dollars in bonuses—including to employees involved in programs plagued by fraud. The Garage Logic crew, joined by Swanson and DHS whistleblower Faye Bernstein, break down the revelations, probe the meaning and administration of these so-called "achievement awards," and reflect on broader issues of government mismanagement, lack of accountability, and the impact on public trust. The show’s usual irreverent wit is layered onto a substantive look at failures in oversight and reward systems.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fraud and the Idea of a "Fraudland Amusement Park"

[01:31]–[03:01]

• The show opens with a satirical riff: Kenny pitches "Fraudland Amusement Park" as a joke about the prevalence of fraud in Minnesota state programs.

  "We're gonna start getting money from the state and the feds … and we're going to run. But we're not going to stick around..." – Kenny [01:53]

• Establishes the cynical amusement with the relentless cycle of state-level mismanagement.

---

2. Kirsten Swanson’s Investigation: The DHS Achievement Bonus Scandal

[03:04]–[07:55]

The Basics:

• $3.2 million in "achievement awards" paid to DHS employees over five years––bonuses of $1,000-$3,000 per person.
• Notable: Nine employees working on the Medicaid-funded Housing Stabilization Services program received $21,000 in bonuses—just three months before that program was shut down due to massive fraud.

Key Insights:

• Bonuses were distributed as rewards for reducing backlogs and "outstanding performance."
• The Housing Stabilization Services program exploded in cost, from $2.6 million to over $100 million by 2025, before being closed for fraud.
• Most frontline staff rewarded did not review claims or make payments but were responsible for eligibility screening—a process later revealed to be easily exploited by fraudulent providers.
• Kirsten Swanson uncovered these payments by meticulously matching payroll and bonus data from public state records.

Memorable Exchange:

• On the timing of bonuses and program collapse:

  "The timing is really interesting... those bonuses were paid in May of 2025, and three months later in August, shut down. Two months after those bonuses, the feds start to raid various providers..." – Kirsten Swanson [11:50]

---

3. How the Bonus System Works

[06:34]–[09:29]

• Any state employee can nominate anyone else for an "achievement award;" approval is reviewed at the commissioner level.
• DHS employs around 8,300 people; about 6% received a bonus during the target period.
• DHS has stated the policy was expanded to include efforts to prevent "fraud, waste, and abuse" but continues to reward backlog reduction and other performance metrics.

---

4. The Issue of Responsibility and Pay-and-Chase Model

[14:32]–[16:21]

• Discussion about whether front-end staff (who received bonuses) should or could have detected fraud.
• Critique of Minnesota’s "pay and chase" model—money goes out the door, fraud is chased after the fact, which has proven ineffective.

  "We've learned through the federal indictments … that's just not an effective way to fight fraud..." – Kirsten Swanson [15:09]

---

5. The Broader Scale: Bonuses Beyond Housing Stabilization

[16:21]–[17:56]

• The $3.2 million in bonuses covered all DHS divisions, not just the troubled program.
• Other agencies in Minnesota also use achievement awards, but Swanson and her team are now investigating if DHS does so more frequently than others.

---

6. Systemic Sloppiness and Lapses in Eligibility

[27:31]–[32:36]

• Faye Bernstein shares her inside observations:
  • Sloppiness in bonus administration ("not necessarily fraud … maybe more waste").
  • At least one case where a bonus was given to someone actively under investigation—violation of agency rules.

  "The one that I noticed that got through … everybody knew that person was under investigation. Yeah, it was a big investigation. It resulted in a three-day suspension … and then they actually got a promotion too." – Faye Bernstein [32:24]

• The HR system is "a black hole of paper," complicating audits and oversight.

---

7. DHS Leadership Turnover and Internal Culture

[35:01]–[41:01]

• Churn at the top: multiple commissioners in short succession; much internal speculation on reasons for sudden resignations and changes.
• Persistent rumors and staff confusion about organizational direction.
• Propaganda ("rah-rah" emails) from leadership frustrates frontline workers aware of ongoing problems.

---

8. Ongoing Problems: Fraud, Error Rates, and Public Messaging

[41:14]–[45:05]

• Swapping "error rates" (low) with "fraud rates" (high) in PR misleads press and public.
• Many staff feel either embarrassed or demotivated by disingenuous internal communications.

---

9. The Herculean Task of “Revalidating” Providers and Clients

[45:23]–[50:35]

• Under federal order (CMS), DHS must revalidate all providers and clients by June 1st or risk losing hundreds of millions in federal funds.
• New hires and redeployments, but trainings are only 1–2 hours—some fear this guarantees errors (“a shit show”).

---

10. Whistleblower Retaliation, Staffing, and Morale

[52:15]–[55:51]

• Faye underscores systemic problems and credits most front-line staff as well-meaning.
• Many employees remain despite dysfunction due to pension, benefits, or dedication, but morale is hurt by the leadership’s lack of transparency.

---

11. Legislative Response and Committee Drama

[57:24]–[59:28]

• The legislature’s fraud report lays all blame for persistent fraud at the Walz administration; committee process split strictly on party lines.
• New Office of Inspector General to have potential law enforcement powers.

---

12. Notable Whistleblower Testimony—Sen. Marion Rarick

[63:21]–[66:06]

• Rarick describes reaching out to DHS whistleblowers; their numbers have grown from 430 to over 1,000.
• Chilling reports of whistleblower retaliation: staff tracked, children’s bus stops requested, photos in personnel files.

  “Those are the frontline workers that were retaliated against, their jobs were threatened. Their children were threatened … What in the world does anyone need to know that for?” – Sen. Marion Rarick [65:06]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I have never gotten [a bonus]. 20 years. I'm probably the only 20 year employee who has never gotten one."
  – Faye Bernstein [06:48]

• On the collapse of Housing Stabilization Services:
  – "Initially estimated to cost the state just $2.6 million a year, it surpassed $100 million in billed services by 2025." – Kirsten Swanson [05:22]

• On PR and reality:
  – "We like to, in our propaganda materials, confuse error rate with fraud rate. Now those are two entirely different things, correct?" – Faye Bernstein [42:19]

• On the futility of the pay-and-chase approach:
  – "…just not an effective way to fight fraud and that there needs to be some review on the front end." – Kirsten Swanson [15:09]

• On investigating bonuses:
  – "If I got a bonus for $1,500 or $2,000, I would remember." – Jay [57:07]

• On whistleblower retaliation:
  – "Their children were threatened. They were asked by supervisors, ‘We need to know where your children’s bus stops are and where they go to school.’" – Sen. Marion Rarick [65:06]

---

Timestamps by Segment

• [03:04] – Kirsten Swanson’s DHS bonus investigation begins.
• [04:14] – $3.2M in bonuses exposed; specifics around program collapse.
• [05:17] – Housing Stabilization Services fraud/collapse timeline.
• [11:10] – Discovery/review of staff responsibilities in fraud-heavy programs.
• [14:32] – Model of "pay and chase" dissected and critiqued.
• [27:31] – Faye Bernstein recounts specific failures in bonus eligibility enforcement.
• [32:24] – Case of a disciplined staffer getting a bonus and a promotion.
• [41:14] – Discussion of the error rate vs. real fraud rate in public PR.
• [45:23] – Urgency and risks surrounding the revalidation push for providers/clients.
• [63:21] – Senator Rarick’s testimony: whistleblower expansion, retaliation saga.

---

Tone, Style, and Additional Notes

• Banter is irreverent and satirical, embracing cynicism (“Fraudland Amusement Park”) but always tied to outrage over real-world mismanagement.
• The episode moves seamlessly between investigative reporting, personal anecdotes, systemic critique, and legislative developments.
• The podcast skips over names and sponsors not pertinent to the main topic, focusing laser-like on the recurring motifs of government waste, accountability, and the plight of whistleblowers.
• The guests, especially Swanson and Bernstein, are treated with deep respect as frontline truth-tellers.
• Final segments reflect on systemic inertia, the difficulty of culture change, and what legislative fixes (like the new Office of Inspector General) might actually accomplish.

---

For Listeners in a Hurry

What’s the punchline?
Minnesota DHS has quietly spent millions on employee bonuses—including rewarding staff involved in programs that became hotbeds of fraud. Even those under active investigation for wrongdoing were sometimes gifted with cash and promotions. Despite new legislative moves (like the Inspector General), insiders warn that without meaningful change, sloppiness and mismanagement will persist, undermining public trust and costing taxpayers dearly.

---

Transcript

[Jay]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. DISH has been connecting communities like yours

[Kenny]

for the last 45 years, providing the

[Jay]

TV you love at a price you can trust.

[Kenny]

Watch live sports news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place.

[Jay]

Switch to DISH today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV starting

[Kenny]

at $89.99 a month with our two year price guarantee.

[Jay]

Call 888-@dish or visit dish.com today.

[Kirsten Swanson]

When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Kenny]

I've had a wonderful idea. Kohl's. What's that? Fraud land Amusement park. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna start getting money from the state and the feds. We're gonna put this fraud amusement park. You know where the ammo manufacturing thing is up in Arden hills. It's along 35W where the Viking Stadium

[Jay]

was going to be, right?

[Kenny]

We're gonna put it there, okay? We're gonna get the money and we're going to run. But we're not going to stick around in the United States or south Minneapolis or up here in the sticks. We're really going to run.

[Jay]

I thought you had nothing for me today. You said you had nothing.

[Kenny]

And here you was looking at the map and I saw there's something called Zero Gravity Adventure park in Mounds View. And I thought, well, why not a fraud amusement park?

[Jay]

Well, Joe Thompson did tell us there is fraud tourism in Minnesota. That's what he said.

[Kenny]

Fraud. Fraud tourism.

[Jay]

Yeah. It was the first time I ever had 44 years of reporting. I've never heard that phrase, fraud. And do you know what?

[Kenny]

Another great show today.

[Jay]

Great show today. I tell you, when we get the big hitters, the big shooters, the big stickers, I don't lie. We got Kirsten Swanson today, right? She's a big hitter. Five eyewitnesses investigates. Big sticker. Kirsten had a great story. I think it was on Monday.

[Kenny]

It was Tuesday.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Monday.

[Jay]

See, this is nice about being semi retired. What day was that? Monday. You saw the story.

[Kenny]

I no longer get mad or enraged. I'm amused and befuddled.

[Jay]

Here we go again.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

So what we should do is welcome Kirsten. Thanks for joining us by the way.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Jay]

Really appreciate it. Because what we're gonna do, because we educate Kenny, we educate the public, that's what we do.

[Kenny]

And her story kind of proves some of the speculation, at least I've had for the last few months.

[Jay]

Yes. And if you remember when we interviewed Faye Bernstein, who Kirsten was talking to Jay.

[Kenny]

It's the only thing I remember from Faye's interview is what Kirsten did on Monday night. So I watched that. I'm like, aha.

[Jay]

I watch Kirsten's story and I watch like an old time reporter. I'm watching for each graph and each reveal. Is she gonna reveal something else? Reveal this. Oh, I'm like, oh, whoa, that's good. Then all of a sudden, bam.

[Kenny]

This.

[Jay]

I'm like, oh, that's even better. By the end of the story, I'm like, we gotta get her on. This is a hell of a story.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And if folks aren't familiar with it, it aired on Monday. Kirsten took a look at bonuses at dhs, correct?

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yes.

[Jay]

DHS wide, correct?

[Faye Bernstein]

Correct.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yes. The entire agency.

[Jay]

And this is what she found. Gabe, play it for the viewers and the listeners. Gates is tracking your tax dollars. 3.2 million to be exact.

[Kirsten Swanson]

That's how much money the Minnesota Department of Human Services paid out in bonuses to employees in the last five years. Investigative reporter Kirsten Swanson obtained data showing these payouts.

[Faye Bernstein]

Kirsten.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Well, guys, they're called achievement awards handed out to employees state government to recognize outstanding performance. We found the state's largest agency, dhs, paid hundreds of employees each year, including a small team working on a Medicaid funded program fraught with fraud. The praise rolled in for the team working on the state's Housing Stabilization Services program.

[Faye Bernstein]

She has consistently supported the team by

[Kenny]

working overtime to help manage the request backlog.

[Faye Bernstein]

Efforts have been instrumental in reducing processing time.

[Kirsten Swanson]

In May of 2025, DHS rewarded nine program staff and eligibility review specialists with an achievement award, the one in $2,000 bonuses given for their work on the Medicaid service that helped vulnerable people find and keep housing. But just three months after those payments

[Kenny]

went through, the level of fraud in

[Jay]

these programs is Staggering, the program collapsed.

[Kirsten Swanson]

In an unprecedented move, the state of Minnesota is shutting down the Housing Stabilization Services program. Initially estimated to cost the state just $2.6 million a year, it surpassed $100 million in billed services by 2025.

[Jay]

These programs have been abused over and

[Kenny]

over to the point where the fraud

[Faye Bernstein]

has overtaken the legitimate services.

[Kirsten Swanson]

DHS tells us those nine staff who received Achievement awards had no role in reviewing claims or making payments. But Data obtained by 5 Investigates shows as Medicaid payments soared in 14 high risk programs, millions of dollars also went directly to DHS employees. Since 2020, the department paid more than $3.2 million in achievement awards. The amounts range from one to $3,000 per person. According to DHS policy, employees nominate an individual or team for outstanding work or results based efforts. Senior leaders then review the nominations and select who gets an award. Using state payroll data, 5 Investigates found DHS employed about 8,300 workers during this time period. Roughly 6% received a bonus.

[Faye Bernstein]

They are supposed to be a unique thing that you get for a distinct project that you did.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Faye Bernstein is a current DHS employee who blew the whistle on the agency's grant management practices.

[Faye Bernstein]

I have never gotten one. 20 years. I'm probably the only 20 year employee who has never gotten one.

[Kirsten Swanson]

In a statement to 5 Investigates, DHS says the state has expanded the Achievement Awards policy to include recognition of staff efforts to prevent fraud, waste and abuse and to strengthen internal controls. During a recent interview, our Kevin Doran asked then DHS Commissioner Sri Gandhi directly about those incentives for staff.

[Jay]

Were DHS employees ever given any kind of incentive to get the money out? Bonuses?

[Kirsten Swanson]

No, I can't. I don't recall anything like that. Anybody, you know, giving a bonus to.

[Jay]

For employees to get the money out?

[Kirsten Swanson]

As we comb through this data, we discovered that Gandhi herself received an Achievement award in May of 2022. She served as Assistant Commissioner for agency effectiveness and received a $1,600 bonus for diversity recognition. In a leadership shakeup announced last week that we previously reported on. Ghani stepped down as commissioner but will stay on as a deputy commissioner.

[Jay]

Kenny. Kenny, Right.

[Kenny]

Hold on. I have to regain my composure.

[Jay]

I told you. Have you? You. You and I worked at Hubbard Broadcasting for how long? Over 30 years.

[Kenny]

Both of us. About a hundred years.

[Jay]

About 100 years combined, yeah. We ever got an achievement bonus? I don't think we ever got an achievement bonus. No, no.

[Kenny]

For. For recognition of. What was it?

[Jay]

Well, doing their job, essentially.

[Kenny]

Equity.

[Jay]

Something I can't remember off top of my head. Do you remember what it was?

[Kirsten Swanson]

Gandhi specifically was for diversity recognition. That was all that I got from that.

[Kenny]

Oh, it was so wonderful, the placement of Gandhi saying no, and then you at the very end knocking it out of the park with yeah, oh, by

[Jay]

the way, oh, by the way, ye. What kind of hurdles did you face to get at this? I'm curious, how long did it take you to put this together?

[Kirsten Swanson]

So we obtained the bonuses data, which just had a list of names and the dates that they were paid out. That inherently in itself was useless at that point. What we did is the state actually posts Minnesota management budget posts payroll data for every state employee on their website. I did not know this in an Excel spreadsheet. You can go there right now and download it. What we did is I just did some data magic and married the names that we had to the payroll data and that was able to show us not only the amounts that they got, but also what their salaries were and what divisions they worked in.

[Jay]

Nice work.

[Kirsten Swanson]

As we started looking through that, we wanted to see what kind of patterns emerged were people getting multiple bonuses, how much every year, and those sorts of things. And we narrowed in and discovered the small staff own housing stabilization services. And we identified that right away because that program has been in the headlines for years now and got shut down. It was really the genesis of the crisis around Medicaid fraud in Minnesota. And so immediately when I saw that, I went, oh my gosh, okay. And reached out to DHS and said, can you tell me, you know, what these employees do in this program? It just said that they work on housing stabilization services. And the department gave to their credit, gave me back exactly what their job was. Most of them were program staff and eligibility review specialists and then gave me that write up that their supervisor or fellow employees wrote to justify why they should get that achievement award. And that's when we discovered that the main reason was because there was this massive backlog of program participants that they were having to go through. So as this program started up, you saw it exploded in growth and was over $100 million by 2025. This staff of individ, as I understand it, are the ones who are screening the folks that are trying to get into the program. And when you're looking at that and you have a backlog of those people over a couple of years, critics look at that and say, well, wait a minute, if you have a backlog in this program, it could tell you a couple of things, right? That it's really needed and utilized or that it might Be overutilized and something might be going on there because it could be fraud. Correct.

[Jay]

I mean, the possibility. Because it's being over overutilized.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Correct. And now we know because of the indictments and the federal investigations that the majority of the program was fraudulent and

[Jay]

it was shut down.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Correct.

[Jay]

It just recently was shut down. So, Kenny.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

I asked Kirsten, do I understand this correctly? How many employees on that particular housing stabilization? Nine.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Nine? Yep.

[Jay]

Nine employees received how much in bonuses?

[Kirsten Swanson]

Nine total. The nine total of them got a total of $21,000 in bonuses.

[Faye Bernstein]

Correct.

[Jay]

Working on a program that was mostly fraud and was shut down.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Correct.

[Jay]

But yet still got the bonuses.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Right. The timing is really interesting too, because you look at the dates that they were paid out. Those bonuses were paid in May of 2025, and three months later in August, shut down. Right. And if you. And you take it even farther back, two months after those bonuses were paid, the feds started to raid various providers and unsealed search warrants that showed there was this massive fraud scheme going on.

[Kenny]

Did I hear you right, Kirsten? The employees, DHS employees that were rewarded, their responsibilities were to induct people or get people into the program to sort

[Jay]

of nominate them, I think.

[Kirsten Swanson]

For housing stabilization services. You're talking about.

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kirsten Swanson]

So they're called. They're called eligibility review specialists. So essentially, if someone, if, if. If someone who is homeless or struggling to find and keep housing, the way the program works is the providers find those people and say, hey, there's this new Medicaid service. We're gonna sign you up through it. I need your Medicaid number and your personal information, and I will send that to the state. And once the state approves you, we can start billing Medicaid on your behalf to find and keep housing. That's the way this program is supposed to work. What they've uncovered. Oh, sorry, Kenny, go.

[Kenny]

No, go ahead, finish. I'm sorry.

[Kirsten Swanson]

What the state discovered is that many of these programs, fraudulent providers were using individuals, Medicaid control numbers that they had never met before and were then billing through that. So people who were struggling to find housing that were not getting housing were getting letters from the feds saying, your number is being. Your Medicaid number is being billed for all these services. And they say, I've never received those services ever. I've never heard of this provider. So the staff that got these bonuses are the ones that are on the front end of the program looking at the applications for this and saying, oh, yes, this person does receive Medicaid is eligible for this program. Stamp it, send it off. Please provide them services.

[Kenny]

Jay, did you do a story early on, or was it a different news outlet in the Twin Cities early on in the housing stabilization fraud story about somebody who actually went through what Kirsten just described?

[Jay]

It wasn't me.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Jay]

Was it somebody care.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Levin?

[Jay]

I was gonna say I thought it was A.J.

[Kirsten Swanson]

yeah.

[Jay]

A.J. la. Go over. Levin did that.

[Kenny]

So I'm not losing my mind. I had that, actually. Okay.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And I remember how astounding that was at the time.

[Jay]

Well, and just the way Kirsten laid it out is pretty remarkable that the people on the front line that were getting the bonuses. My question is, Kirsten, is there a way to know should they have been able to catch that some of this stuff was bad, or would it have been too hard for them to know?

[Kirsten Swanson]

That's hard to say because their job is completely different from the back end, which is actually then paying the provider. Right. Because that money doesn't go directly to the person. Right. It goes through the provider that is supposed to be helping them find and keep housing. And dhs, as we noted in the story, was very adamant that this group of individuals was not responsible for reviewing claims or making payments. They were the front end.

[Jay]

So they're saying, front end, gotcha. They wouldn't be culpable of any kind of mistake or they overlook something that's more on the back end, you're saying.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah.

[Kirsten Swanson]

And I think if you would look at it from that perspective of the way Minnesota historically goes after fraud, it's this pay and chase model. I think you guys have heard that terminology before. So that is essentially, the money's already out the door. We've approved the claims that have come through, we've paid them. And then we go back and say, ooh, there's billing irregularities. This program is really large. We've identified that probably there's fraud here. And then we go after those providers to try to claw the money back. And we've learned through the federal indictments and the reporting through this that that's just not an effective way to fight fraud and that there needs to be some review on the front end. The review when the claims actually come to the state to. Before they're paid out, before the money is.

[Jay]

So DHS's position was, hey, these folks did do a good job even though the program failed essentially in the end.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Right.

[Jay]

They weren't part of the problem. They were doing a great job in reducing this backlog.

[Kirsten Swanson]

They were doing what they were supposed to do, which was help people get enrolled in this program that the state stood up with every intention of helping vulnerable individuals in the community try to find and keep housing.

[Jay]

Did you find anything else outside of stabilization services that have caught your interest?

[Kirsten Swanson]

I mean, I think the number was really interesting. The big number that we highlighted, that $3.2 million.

[Jay]

3.2 million is a lot.

[Kirsten Swanson]

It's important to, you know, put into context.

[Faye Bernstein]

Right.

[Kirsten Swanson]

That DHS is the largest agency with the. The largest amount of employees in the state.

[Jay]

8,000 is incredible.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yeah, about 8,300.

[Jay]

I didn't know it was that big.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yeah, that includes. Excuse me. It was a little difficult because the time period we were looking at, if you all remember, for a very long time, DHS had many, many, many, many services under it. So all of the. Everything that's under Children, Youth and Families now was under DHS for a very long time. They've now started to fracture some of those things off. So we had to do a little bit of manipulation to try to figure out how to like, compare apples to apples in these time periods.

[Jay]

Because DCYF now does the funding part. They handle them. The feds get it to the state and now DCYF is actually the one dishing out the money, as I understand it. Is that correct?

[Kirsten Swanson]

For the childcare stuff, for the child care stu. Specifically. Right. DHS is still the Medicaid. And so. So we. That 8300 is that rough number. Right. That's the rough number of people that worked at the agency in this kind of time period.

[Jay]

3.2 million worth of bonuses.

[Faye Bernstein]

Correct.

[Kirsten Swanson]

To. To hundreds of employees every year.

[Jay]

Did you find any in any of the other programs that are struggling? We just. Stabilization or are you still working on that?

[Kirsten Swanson]

We're still working. We're still kind of looking. We're also wanting to see a little bit on a wider scale what it looks like across the entire state government. Because like I said, this is not a DHS specific thing.

[Jay]

Correct.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Every agency has the opportunity to offer these achievement awards, and a lot of it depends on what the program budgets look like. This money comes directly out of whatever agency budget it sits under. But we're really curious to look at whether DHS pays awards, these achievement awards more frequently than other agencies. And so we're working on that.

[Jay]

I'm curious, in the end, has the final say as to. Oh, yeah, that was great work. We're going to give you the bonus or the achievement award.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Does that come down to the commissioner? Deputy Commissioner?

[Kenny]

Good question.

[Kirsten Swanson]

I believe so.

[Jay]

Besides that. Right.

[Kirsten Swanson]

I don't have the policy in front of me, but it is. So anyone can nominate anyone for an achievement award. It doesn't have to be like your supervisor or anything. Like, I, Kirsten, could nominate Jay for an achievement award for his outstanding work on the podcast.

[Jay]

I wish she would have.

[Kirsten Swanson]

And then it goes to. Yeah, it goes to, I believe, commissioner level staff to review and then pay payroll would pay it out. Essentially.

[Kenny]

Jay and I are such bastards that I would. I would write a submission not nominating Jay. I would. I would say it's very important that you do not reward him.

[Jay]

You've seen my minimal effort, maximum glory.

[Kenny]

And I would hope. Yeah, I would hope that you would do the same for me.

[Jay]

I would, yes. Minimal effort does not get an achievement award.

[Kenny]

No, no. Go home.

[Jay]

It was a great piece of reporting by Kirsten because, hey, I didn't know these achievement awards existed. Kenny. No, I didn't know, you know, we don't get achievement awards.

[Kenny]

No. And the way you get them is really odd to me. Is that normal? Does that happen in the everyday workday world?

[Jay]

Not in ours, no.

[Kenny]

It's based on. It's based on what you have done or accomplished for the company when you

[Jay]

come up for your job review.

[Kenny]

Bring in listeners, bring in advertisers, all

[Jay]

that kind of stuff.

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jay]

Which, by the way, how many. How many sponsors we have on this show now we get more. We're getting three sponsors.

[Kenny]

I'm not getting a bonus yet, if that's the question.

[Jay]

Oh, we now got three sponsors, right, Gabe? We got three. Two. Two. We're down to two. We had three. We're down to two.

[Kenny]

If you keep talking about it, we'll be down to none. So maybe zip it.

[Jay]

All right, well, that's. Hey, thanks for joining us.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yeah, thank you.

[Jay]

I don't think there's anything else that we couldn't cover. It was pretty straightforward. But I just wanted to hear from you some of your impressions and thoughts. And I did want to ask you how hard it was to get at it to get the information. I think you answered that.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Yeah, it is difficult. I mean, you know, this as well reported for so long. It is difficult to get information sometimes and it takes quite a while. But this one, this one turned around pretty relatively quickly in the. The scope of how long it does take us to get information.

[Jay]

Nice piece of reporting. I mean, with all the stuff that's going on, and there's been plenty straightforward fraud stuff. I had not heard of this or thought of this. And I thought it was such an interesting angle. More people should know about it.

[Kenny]

So you guys run that graphic downstairs. What the fraud. What the fraud. And when yours comes up, all I can do is sit here and go again more. When will it end?

[Jay]

I think that's the whole point, right? I sit at home now. I can sit in my comfy clothes at home smoking a cigarette, having a coffee. And when what the fraud pops up, I almost have the same reaction, like, oh, here's a new one again today.

[Kenny]

How can there be more? Holy crap.

[Jay]

And then I watch and go, well, I guess so Kirsten found more, and she didn't really find fraud, but what she found was really interesting. Yeah, I mean, that's a lot the day people say so often in my interviews with these government agencies. I don't know if they said this to you. Well, you know, Jay, a million or two in our overall budget really is a drop in the bucket. And I understand what they're saying.

[Kenny]

That's such an insulting thing to say.

[Jay]

Yeah. Last time I checked, a million bucks was a lot of money to me.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And three, just a heads up to

[Jay]

you folks sitting with a notebook and pen Mishke, the new podcast here in Garage Logic Land is now coming out twice a week, Wednesdays and Fridays. If you're in fact scribbling this down, Wednesday is kind of tough to spell.

[Faye Bernstein]

It's not like it sounds.

[Kenny]

You want to spell it W, E, N, Z, but that of course would be a mistake.

[Jay]

Friday is spelled just like it sounds.

[Kenny]

You're gonna be okay there, but Wednesday's a bugaboo.

[Jay]

Let me tell you, people.

[Kenny]

Just a pain in the patootie. Jeez, it's hard.

[Jay]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. May is mental health awareness month, and Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, is sharing the message that connection is crucial because good relationships are an essential and sometimes overlooked component of mental well being. If your relationships could use some strengthening, a licensed therapist from Talkspace can help. Therapy can help you communicate better with loved ones, repair conflicts, and understand how to address loneliness and build community. It's easy to sign up. Just go to talkspace.com and you'll be paired with a therapist within two days. You'll meet with your therapist online on your schedule. Plus, Talkspace is in network with most major insurers and most insured members have a $0 copay. Make personal connections a priority and start today. If you're not covered by insurance, get $80 off your first month with Talkspace. When you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S, P, A, C, E80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com and Enter promo cod code SPACE80.

[Kenny]

Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board, but then all you

[Jay]

can do is hope the right person comes along.

[Kenny]

Which is why you should try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com Zip ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. Its powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your job.

[Jay]

You get qualified candidates fast.

[Kenny]

So while other companies might deliver a lot of hay, ZipRecruiter finds you what you're looking for. The needle in the Haystack.

[Jay]

See why? 4 out of 5 employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality

[Kenny]

candidate within the first day.

[Jay]

ZipRecruiter the smartest way to hire. And right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right, free at ZipRecruiter.com Zip that. ZipRecruiter.com Zip ZipRecruiter.com Zip 0.1 million sounds like a lot of money to me. Yeah, and maybe these are justified. You could argue they're justified. I don't know. But it was interesting to see what you did with them and with housing stabilization. So what's your next thing you're working on? You're going to tell us or is it super top secret?

[Kirsten Swanson]

Everything's super top secret. Top secret back there.

[Jay]

I want to know.

[Kirsten Swanson]

That's why we have a door that closes.

[Jay]

I know, but you looked at me and said, I got something good to tell you. I am working on a good story. Oh, can we talk about it now?

[Kirsten Swanson]

The record? No, off the record. That's off the record.

[Jay]

Well, we'll have you back when you hear that one.

[Faye Bernstein]

Perfect.

[Jay]

We'll be watching.

[Kenny]

All right, all right, all right. I want to talk about one of those rare sponsors to news from the crabby coffee shop Warner Stock in New Richmond. The fishing opener. It's come and gone here in Minnesota, but Warner's dock and skeeter boat still offering early season rebates right now. Not only can you find your brand new skeeter boat@warner stock.com, you also have your pick of new Alumacraft boats and premier pontoons. And if you want to upgrade your current fishing Boat or pontoon. Warner stock will take your trade in. By the way, they're even purchasing used fishing boats and pontoons up to 15 years old. If that's an interest. They do it all. From sales to service storage. Warner stock is the place for all of your boating needs. They can service your outboard, your I. O. Electronic equipment installation. Not a big deal. Service your trailer, set you up with a new dock. Warner's doc, they're committed to keeping you on the water and happy boating if you're involved. Not a cheap lifestyle. Warner stock knows that. And you can trust them to take care of every step along the way to keep you and your family on the water this season. Warner's doc, they're right there in New Richmond, Wisconsin. And on the web, warners doc.com so, Fay Bernstein joining us. Faye, I want to turn you on to a brilliant idea I had about 30 minutes ago. We want to start in amusement park in ard Mills where the old ammo manufacturing place was. That big, empty, huge area. We want it to be called, like, fraud land Amusement park. And I've had a few more ideas along the course of the show. Have you guys ever been to the magic Kingdom?

[Jay]

Walt Disney World one time.

[Kenny]

You have to walk through that castle, right?

[Jay]

Yep. Yep.

[Kenny]

So at Fraudland, we're gonna have something like that, only it's going to be a wind tunnel.

[Jay]

Okay.

[Kenny]

And there's gonna be a hundred dollar bills floating around. You're gonna have to grab those as you walk through. And then instead of having Mickey and Donald and Goofy, we're gonna have, let's see, I made a list. We're gonna have Shireen, Heather Mueller, Amy Bach, Governor Walls walking around in costume and dead. And Jody. I wrote down Jody's name. Yep. Yep. Welcome back to Krabby, Fay.

[Jay]

What you described is exactly what's happening. Anyhow, it's just a big wind tunnel of money flying around.

[Kenny]

So say I think about you every day and hope. Oh, my God, I hope she's. I hope she's still there. I hope she's okay.

[Faye Bernstein]

I'm still there. I am still working every day.

[Jay]

And then she popped up on the show with the newscast with Kirsten. The Kirsten story. We saw you in that. That's why we thought we'd bring you back. Current DHS employee who did not get a bonus.

[Faye Bernstein]

No, I've never. Yeah, 20 years. More than 20 years. And I've never gotten one. If I did get one, it would surprise me. Like something would be up. Something strange is there. That was a very good piece. She did. That was really. That was good work. Because, you know, the. The fraud we have from outside of dhs, I think is being pursued. It will all be discovered. But what I don't want people to miss is the sloppiness that goes on within dhs. And that's not necessarily fraud. That's just real sloppy. Maybe that would under the category of fraud, waste and abuse, Maybe that would be more waste. Just because. Because not only did we continue to give out a lot of bonuses, but I know of one instance for sure where somebody got a bonus that didn't qualify.

[Jay]

Really?

[Faye Bernstein]

For a bonus? Yeah, because there are requirements within that policy on when you can get one. And the biggest one, probably the most important one to me is if you are currently being investigated, you can't get a bonus.

[Jay]

A bonus seems reasonable.

[Faye Bernstein]

And so I gathered all that info through data requests myself because I was interested in who got bonuses that spoke out against me. I wanted to know, did they actually get a bonus for that? And of course, I did see that. But I also came across one person that I knew was under active investigation at the time that they got the bonus. And so I went to HR and I know I talked to Sherene about this as well and said, how could this person get a bonus? And first there was denial. Denial? No, no, she wasn't under investigation. And finally I said, I know she was under investigation because I was the person providing that information. I was ratting her out.

[Jay]

So you reported it?

[Faye Bernstein]

Yes.

[Jay]

Reported her?

[Faye Bernstein]

Yes.

[Jay]

And Sherene's telling you, oh, there's nobody like that.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Faye Bernstein]

And so then finally there was an admission. Okay, that was a mistake. So again, that's just the sloppiness where we're giving bonuses to people who don't even qualify for it under our own policy.

[Jay]

Is there a way to, like, if I wanted to go make a data request, would there be a way to weed all, go through the weeds and get through the tall grass and find who was. Who was getting bonuses when they weren't eligible? How would you go about doing something like that?

[Faye Bernstein]

That would be really pretty hard being partly because our human resources division is just like a black hole of paper. I'm not in support of giving DHS a bunch more money, except for I do think that that is one area that actually needs some money so that they do things in some sort of computerized system. So if you were to do a data request and ask for, you know, open and closing dates on every investigation by employee, so Then you could see, oh, Faye Bernstein had an open investigation from this date to this date. Thus she couldn't. And then you would compare it to the bonus material and you could see.

[Jay]

So there's a way to figure it out.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah. Except for you're probably going to have to pay DHS for that money because it is not readily available because it's data they're creating. Yeah, they're gonna have to go for my request.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Faye Bernstein]

And they're probably gonna have to go through stacks of paper. They really are living in, you know, the 1900s.

[Jay]

So most likely. And that would probably take me six to eight months to get my response. Because right now they told us the newsroom there's a backlog of six month

[Faye Bernstein]

requests, which that's good news. Cause it used to be more like a year.

[Jay]

Yeah. So they hired more people to handle it apparently or something. I don't know.

[Faye Bernstein]

I'm working my butt off now. No, we do have three new people coming in to do the same thing as me to do the redactions.

[Jay]

So you're pretty confident that there may be more than just the one example you know of.

[Faye Bernstein]

Oh, for sure. I definitely.

[Jay]

That people are getting bonuses who probably don't qualify.

[Faye Bernstein]

Oh, I'm sure there are. Because it just is not something that is checked. Obviously it's not checked because the one that I noticed that got through, I mean, everybody knew that person was under investigation. Yeah, it was. So to think that HR did not immediately recognize the name and say, oh, wait a second, that person. That's just crazy to me. It was a big investigation. It resulted in a three day suspension. It was a deputy director of a division. It was a big dang deal.

[Jay]

And they still got a bonus.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah.

[Jay]

So they got. They were investigated. They were disciplined and still got a bonus.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah. And then they actually got a promotion too.

[Jay]

And then they got a promotion.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yes. Worked out very well for her.

[Kenny]

Kenny, we're in the wrong line.

[Jay]

Go work at dhs.

[Kenny]

Yeah, we're in the wrong line of business.

[Jay]

It just doesn't seem possible that you can be under investigation, become get disciplined. To get a three day suspension, you got to try pretty hard.

[Faye Bernstein]

Oh yeah.

[Jay]

In government.

[Faye Bernstein]

I don't know anyone else who's had

[Jay]

a three day suspension for government. That's almost unheard, so. And then a promotion on top of

[Kenny]

it with the bonus.

[Jay]

Terrific.

[Kenny]

Everything about the story is astounding about DHS is just absolutely astounding.

[Jay]

It would never work that way in the private sector.

[Kenny]

The whole Sherene thing is what's really been befuddling to me, you had said the last time you were with us that. Well, you know what? I'm not gonna put words in your mouth. We asked you about her, you said something to the effect that you had informed her of fraud. Am I on the right track there, Faye?

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah, she was just one of many people I was firing off constant emails to. But I also had a lot of one to one time with Shirin when she was my North Korean minder. You know, we were together a lot. She would come and try to placate me, I guess. So during those times, I would repeatedly talk to her about it, and she

[Kenny]

ended up in charge. And if I remember right, she was saying to you, was she saying, there's no fraud here? Or what was her reaction to your submissions to her?

[Faye Bernstein]

It would always be first. Let me just say, as a person, I very much like her. I very much like Sherene. She's another one of those people who has a resume I would kill to have. So she's. I can't say too much bad about her, but she did do a good job of placating me. And so when we would spend time together and I would say, okay, I reported this a long time ago and here's the documentation of what I reported. And it would really be the. Oh, let me check on that. Let me look into that. You know, it was really that. But that was. I think her mission at that time was just to placate me. And she did a good job of that.

[Kenny]

And eventually February, late February this year, she's appointed as the director. Right.

[Jay]

Commissioner.

[Kenny]

Commissioner. Better word. And then early May last week, the day before she was supposed to testify. Long pause. The governor reshuffled the chairs on the sinking Titanic and she didn't have to testify. Right.

[Jay]

Connolly became the director.

[Kenny]

But Connolly. Where is Connolly now?

[Jay]

Medical. Eve.

[Faye Bernstein]

Medical leave.

[Kenny]

And who's running the show? Shereen. No.

[Faye Bernstein]

True, true. Yeah. She would be stepping in for this, for this month, because we believe that Connolly is out for about a month.

[Jay]

So what

[Kenny]

have I been drinking? I need to put one one foot on the floor to stop the room from spinning.

[Jay]

Yeah, I'm right there with you because I can't figure out why this happened. Do you have any idea what is the word of dhs? Why?

[Kenny]

What do you mean? Why? What?

[Jay]

Like why was Gandhi demoted?

[Kenny]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Jay]

And Connolly promoted.

[Kenny]

Yeah. All I can do is speculate.

[Jay]

Speculate?

[Kenny]

Yeah. Didn't want her to testify.

[Jay]

Didn't want her to testify. And maybe View it as a liability? I don't know. It could be. What is the word of dhs? Do you have any idea?

[Faye Bernstein]

It is really a mystery. I'm curious to see what sort of the rest of the world thinks. I believe that it was at her request that she simply didn't want to do it.

[Jay]

She was done.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yes. Because she.

[Kenny]

That would make sense.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Faye Bernstein]

She wants to retire and she did. I ran into her about six weeks ago at a fraud hearing and we started talking, like, as soon as she saw it was me and I saw it was her, we said, oh, hi. We started just talking about sort of kids and things like that. And she said with. Without any hesitation when I said, so how are things going? And without any hesitation, and quite loudly in front of Connolly, who was like five feet away, she said, well, I'm in a job I didn't ask for. And so when I saw that.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that's really interesting.

[Faye Bernstein]

So when I saw that she had stepped down, I kind of appreciated that. Like, this is not something she wanted to do and she did the right thing for a year and she did it, but she's not going to keep doing it.

[Jay]

So maybe not a demotion.

[Kenny]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And the room has stopped spinning now.

[Jay]

Yeah. Now that would be normalcy.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Somebody saying, you know, I didn't want this job in the first place and I don't want all this baggage.

[Kenny]

Boy, do I get that. I'm done. I understand.

[Jay]

So at first I thought maybe they didn't want her to testify. Too much of liability.

[Faye Bernstein]

Right.

[Jay]

But now they don't realize it could

[Kenny]

be Jay and Faye. They don't realize how this looks to us civilians.

[Jay]

Yeah, it's how it looks.

[Kenny]

It's not playing well.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah. That's the curious thing to me is why did she wait so long? I mean, did she literally have that moment on the weekend? She's like, dang it, I gotta get out of this. Because she is a. She's a dedicated, loyal employee. She would not do anything to DHS that would. That would make anybody look bad.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Faye Bernstein]

She's a real legit good person. So why did she wait so long? Now, someone on the Fraud Committee. I'm forgetting who it was. It was a guy on the Republican side. He said she wasn't going to get the votes. She wasn't going to. She wasn't going to.

[Jay]

Oh, and come back with a new administration.

[Faye Bernstein]

You mean that she wasn't going to? Because that. That Monday. Was it Monday morning or Tuesday morning hearing? Monday Morning or Monday afternoon.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And the hearing. Yeah, right, right.

[Faye Bernstein]

That was her. I want to call it coronation, but it's not a coronation. Give me the word. After one year, you actually have to. You can. One year free float and the governor can just say she's. She's the one. But after that one year, you have to be formally voted in. There's a word. It's not coronation, but that'd be kind of cool.

[Jay]

Confirmation.

[Faye Bernstein]

Confirmation must be confirmation. I kind of like coronation better, though. That sounds pretty cool.

[Jay]

So she wouldn't have had the votes in the Senate to get confirmed. That would also make sense.

[Faye Bernstein]

If that's possible. That would be really humiliating. And if maybe over the weekend that became clear, then maybe that's why she said, yeah, I'm not gonna go through that embarrassment. What the heck, I got retirement in my future and I'm just going that route.

[Kenny]

You know, the politicians at the top, they need to realize, and as much as they hate this, perception is reality. It might not be, but it is to us. And until you come out and tell us differently and tell us differently at the get go, so we don't sit around and speculate and doubt you and start throwing like I've been throwing accusations.

[Jay]

And think about it, that would be what, three now commissioners in the past year? If I'm doing my math right, you got Harpstead.

[Kenny]

That's a lot.

[Jay]

Gandhi, and now Connolly.

[Faye Bernstein]

Connolly's like halfway.

[Jay]

Halfway interim. Yeah, but still a new director. So that'd be three commissioners within a year.

[Faye Bernstein]

Well, but remember about how many years ago, seven years ago, we had that weird thing with Tony Laurie?

[Jay]

Oh, yeah.

[Faye Bernstein]

Nobody knows the story there. I'd love to know that. That story. And then we had. Didn't we have two interims and then went to Harpstead. Maybe we just had one interim.

[Jay]

So this is not too uncommon.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah, I think. I think nobody wants the job. Nobody wants the job,

[Kenny]

you know, and nobody wants to go through the process to get the job that they don't want. Correct.

[Jay]

Would you want that gate right now? No.

[Kenny]

Hell no.

[Jay]

Not right now, I wouldn't. No.

[Kenny]

I never.

[Jay]

No. So how are things now at DHS from the last time we talked to you? Still the same. Getting better. How would you describe it, Faye?

[Faye Bernstein]

I think it's still the same. What just gets under my skin is the propaganda that is released that all the employees will get these mass emails maybe once a week or something about how great we're doing and how. How this is just a misunderstanding type of things with the Federal Government.

[Jay]

I was gonna say, what are we misunderstanding with the feds?

[Faye Bernstein]

Well, one of the things that really bugged me was this. And the local media picked it up about our error rate. We apparently on our Medicaid approvals we have a very low error rate and I think we do. I've seen that just in my regular job I come across data on our error rate and we.

[Jay]

When you talk about an error rate, you mean you're not making mistakes?

[Faye Bernstein]

That's the problem. We like to, in our propaganda materials confuse error rate with fraud rate. Now those are two entirely different things, correct?

[Jay]

Yes.

[Faye Bernstein]

And that bugs me. Why do we do that? Because again, that looks like we're hiding something. And our error rate is great. That's actually work that's done by counties. But good job on the counties. It's great.

[Jay]

But.

[Faye Bernstein]

But don't release that information and convince, you know, a large newspaper in the Twin Cities to write a piece about how great the Department of Human Services is in their fraud prevention. That has nothing to do with fraud.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Did the Star Tribune. Did I miss that story? Did you see that story, Kenny?

[Kenny]

They are a propaganda arm of the. Of Governor Wallace. I don't know if you want to associate yourself with that statement. I want to find that they are working. The sar. Tribune is working for Governor Walls.

[Jay]

Did. Did. Well, its publisher once did work for Walls.

[Kenny]

Exactly.

[Jay]

What, when did they run a story on that? Do you remember?

[Faye Bernstein]

I want to say that was about two months ago.

[Jay]

Two months ago. I missed that one. Maybe because it was. If they were trying to convince me that it was a story about how well things were going, I wasn't going to buy that.

[Kenny]

They love to downplay things.

[Jay]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, so. So your mistake rate or your error rate is low. What good does that, what does that mean if you've got record setting fraud? It doesn't mean anything really, does it?

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah, and that's to me, it's just like anything else. You gotta be upfront with the public about where you're at on things. And that was intentionally misleading. I just hate to see that.

[Jay]

I mean, what are we coming up on now? When was feeding our future? When did that break open? In 2022? 2021? 2022, 23. Right toward the end of the pandemic, wasn't it? So we're talking about a good four years into this, probably three, four years maybe, and you're telling me things are pretty much still the same at dhs? You don't see much of a difference?

[Faye Bernstein]

No, no. And I blame our leadership for that because we release these propaganda pieces and it affects employees as well. Because. Because employees end up in two camps. Either the camp who knows that that's propaganda and then you are embarrassed to work there. It kind of angers you because your employer is lying to you. I mean, nothing good comes of it. And then there's the other camp of employees who say, oh, great, we don't have to bust our asses now because everything's great.

[Kenny]

Goatee.

[Faye Bernstein]

So there is nothing good that comes from that intentionally misleading information.

[Jay]

Do you know or have you seen that there's a greater effort to stop some of the fraud on the front end? That the guardrails are better now or has nothing much changed in that regard?

[Faye Bernstein]

This just came up at a union, a large union meeting I was at. And this concerns me. So we're doing. I forgot what. We're reapprovals. There's a word for it where we're going. The feds have made us go through, and I think our due date is June 1st, where we have to go through and revalidate all of our providers in a certain group of. A large group of services, as well as program recipients.

[Jay]

So the providers are those who provide the services. And then you're. So you gotta do both them and the clients.

[Faye Bernstein]

That is my understanding.

[Jay]

How are you gonna get that done by June 1st?

[Faye Bernstein]

Well, we hired in a bunch of people. People have been redeployed from other agencies, but also within dhs. It's a ton of work. And what came up at this union meeting was that the people who are doing it are ill prepared and are having one to two hours of training. And I don't know how to do this myself, but the people who were speaking about it at this meeting said that is impossible to do. And I said, so do you.

[Jay]

Because there's gotta be hundreds of providers. Correct.

[Faye Bernstein]

And.

[Jay]

And thousands of recipients.

[Faye Bernstein]

The providers.

[Jay]

How the hell are they gonna get that report?

[Kenny]

You got 19 days. 19 days. The clock is ticking.

[Faye Bernstein]

I can see where we could do a decent job on the providers because this is a job that is not identical, but very, very similar to what a licensor does. You go out, you just sort of check the place out. And that would probably screen out a lot of these businesses that don't even exist. Right. That their address is a parking lot. Right. So our licensers being redeployed would be able to very efficiently do that. The part about revalidating individual service recipients, that is the part that would be a disaster because you're working in our systems like Maxis and stuff and those are crummy systems. But there's so many. If this is present, then this has to be present. There are so, so this is what the person was telling me. There are so, so many what ifs that it would be impossible for a person to have two hours of training and be able to do this. So I said, are you talking about false positives or false negatives? And they said both. It's just gotta be a shit show. There is no way that an ill trained person could with any validity do this work. Which then makes me fear. I mean, I'm assuming that CMS is gonna sort of do a double check on our double check and when they find these false positives and false negatives, what are we gonna do then? Then we kind of screwed it up twice.

[Jay]

Yeah, yeah. That. I don't see how you could do thousands of. I mean we're talking about thousands and thousands of clients.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yes.

[Jay]

Receiving Medicaid. They'd have to go through each one individually and make sure they were correct. When you say revalidate.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yes.

[Jay]

Making sure they're eligible for the program.

[Kenny]

Is that the same June 1 deadline that the house. No, it was daycare. Had to reapply for certification.

[Jay]

Certification.

[Kenny]

Am I on the right? Right.

[Jay]

I don't know.

[Faye Bernstein]

Didn't they have follow.

[Kenny]

Didn't they have until June 1st and at the time we did the story, Jay, only three people had applied. Oh, yes. Was that. That was daycare, was it not?

[Jay]

That was daycare. They did not. Yeah, that was to reapply to.

[Kenny]

I think it was the license.

[Jay]

The license, yeah. And only three had reapplied, you're correct.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Yep. I don't know. Is that part of the same process? Maybe.

[Jay]

I don't know.

[Faye Bernstein]

You know what? I don't know. Or if it just. I've lost track of that. Or if it just happens to have the same due date.

[Jay]

It could have the same due date.

[Faye Bernstein]

I don't know.

[Jay]

Coincidentally, because what she's talking about is cms. The center for Medicaid and Medicare Services has required DHS to revalidate all their providers and clients by the 1st of June. Or you lose how much in money? Hundreds of millions. Tens of millions.

[Faye Bernstein]

Well, we still have, you know, we got another. Where they halted payment to us. That was just 90 million, but then we have the 200 and some million. So I mean we're somewhere between 350 and 400 were waiting for. And that's not.

[Jay]

And that's that June 1st deadline.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah. And even that seems that it's going to be a lot harder to pry out of the hands of the feds than we had hoped. We thought it was going to be real easy. Like we just turn in our stuff and the check comes the next day.

[Jay]

I don't think so.

[Faye Bernstein]

I guess it's much more complicated than that. And so it is going to start impacting people. I mean, it's not impacting people today where the state can still cover, but it's going to start impacting people before too long. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if CMS does some more, especially if they double check our double checks and they find more. That's going to be terrible.

[Kenny]

Wow.

[Jay]

I did not know that. So that's 300 million. That's a lot of money, man.

[Kenny]

What's the incentive for a DHS employee to stay employed at dhs? Why not just this Sounds like something I'd walk away from. Why are you still there, Faye?

[Faye Bernstein]

I'm in a little bit of a unique spot where I'll retire in a year or two and so it seems sort of pointless for me to go out and get another job. Plus I'm not terribly employable because I have a big, you know, W. Scarlet letter for whistleblowing on my chest. People probably wouldn't want me around. But I think a lot of people who are maybe not thinking of retirement as I am are really committed. Most of my peers who work in the policy divisions that are the ones like the housing division and stuff like that, they are good hearted, diligent people who came from direct service. They all worked at treatment centers for many years and I think that they. I don't think they're there for just a paycheck. It is a good paying job. Don't get me wrong. It is a good paying job and we have great benefits with our pension and our vacation and our health insurance is great. But I also think that most people that I work with are good, dedicated employees and really are gonna stick it out, man.

[Jay]

Credit to them.

[Kenny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jay]

It'd be hard given them the circumstances right now. But hey, thanks again for joining us. Filling in some of the blanks. I didn't realize some of these bonuses might be going out to people who don't qualify.

[Faye Bernstein]

Yeah, that's.

[Jay]

That's worth following up on again.

[Faye Bernstein]

That's just demonstrating the sloppiness.

[Jay]

Right, right.

[Faye Bernstein]

That is in that building.

[Jay]

Fay Bernstein DHS EMPLOYEE Good stuff.

[Kenny]

Thank you very much, Faye. We'll be in Touch.

[Faye Bernstein]

All right.

[Jay]

Good stuff. Thanks, Faye.

[Kenny]

We're going to come right back, but first I want to talk to you a little bit about Schoonover Body Works and Auto Care. The best thing that all of us have done here at Crabby and GL for our cars and trucks is get them in the care of Mike Schoonover and his team at Schoonover Body Works and Auto Care and Shoreview. For me, it started years and years ago when I was attacked by a deer and it wrecked my truck. And guess what? I'm bringing that. Well, it's not the same truck, but I am bringing one of my trucks in next week for something called a Pitman arm and some other mystery parts that have finally worn out in the front end. But I'm not worried at all. I'm in good hands. And you will be, too, if you opt for Schoonovers. You're going to love how they act as your, I don't know, warrior might be a fancy word. The fancy word is advocate. Right, Right. But that word works when it comes to Schoonover fighting for you with your insurance company. They're not going to accept cheap replacement parts, only the best. No knockoffs. That'll assure that you get the full value of your policy. They will always keep you in the loop along the way, as those repairs are being made over the course of a day or two days, and your vehicle will come back to you meeting your full expectations. They've got the schoon over difference thing. They're good, better. Best policy, where you get the service you want and can afford. And that'll make a big difference. If you're just driving, you know, an older car, you might not want to put a ton of money into it. Schoonover can help you out. There they are, the official repair shop of the Crabby Coffee Shop and garagelogic. They're right there on County E at Lexington in Shoreview and on the west schoonoverbodyworks.com this summer.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Don't squeeze in.

[Faye Bernstein]

Spread out. Find homes big enough for your whole

[Kirsten Swanson]

guest list on vrbo.

[Faye Bernstein]

That's vacation rentals done.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Right? Book your stay now.

[Kenny]

So I'm sorry that I'm still obsessing on this Kohl's, but the Magic Kingdom has six themed lands there. Main Street, Adventureland, Frontierland, Liberty Square, Fantasyland, and Tomorrowland. At our amusement park, what are we gonna have? Housing stabilization.

[Jay]

Land housing stabilization.

[Kenny]

The place you go for the food. The food. Feeding, our future, food court, food transportation services, daycare.

[Jay]

Adult daycare as well as a child daycare.

[Kenny]

Autism land Boy, you're onto something.

[Jay]

We could do this. I think we'd be on to something.

[Kenny]

No. All we have to do is put together the package, get the money and then flee. No, no. Dirt is going to be turned over. No. I'm not even going to the site of our new amusement park. And I don't care if we have permission or not.

[Jay]

Or not. I like the way you think, brother. That's pretty good.

[Kenny]

What do you think of Faye?

[Jay]

I loved hearing from Faye because she's never received a bonus. And we did learn something new from her today. There are people, well, she's seen at least one case and she believes there's others of people at DHS getting these bonuses who aren't even eligible for the bonuses. So to me that was eye opening just to hear that from her. I had never heard that before.

[Kenny]

The one thing I didn't ask her and I didn't ask her on purpose because I felt like I was pushing my luck with Shireen. You know, having Faye on makes her work life very uncomfortable.

[Jay]

It does. Yes.

[Kenny]

So I didn't want to go too far with Shireen. Do you the question I was going to ask, and I can just ask this in general, the fact that Shereen didn't remember getting a bonus.

[Jay]

Right.

[Kenny]

But then she got a bonus.

[Jay]

But then she got a bonus.

[Kenny]

Do you think that it was so insignificant that she wouldn't remember? I us guys at gl, I'm going to give away a GL secret. We get like three or four bonuses a year for something.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

And it's so small that we make fun of it and it's so insignificant. It like buys two tanks of gas and then your bonuses, you know, and it's just hysterical. It's so funny. Do you think it was one of those?

[Jay]

I don't think so. Only because in Kirsten's report most of the bonuses were between a thousand and three thousand dollars, right?

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

Maybe up to 3,500. So I don't know about you, but if I got a bonus for $1,500 or $2,000, I would remember.

[Kenny]

I would remember and I'd be watching the clock in the calendar for the next one.

[Jay]

Exactly.

[Kenny]

When can we do this again?

[Jay]

I don't think I'd sit there and go, yeah, no, I don't remember ever getting one because she's not making that much money. She's making good money. But if you get a, you know, 1500, 2000, even 3000 in your pocket, extra. You're definitely going to remember that. How could you not?

[Kenny]

Right.

[Jay]

But she said she didn't, so.

[Kenny]

So the final fraud report passed out of committee this morning, I believe.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

You were besmirched in that report.

[Jay]

Yeah, no, actually we were upheld as something good. Oh. But here's the interesting thing about that. The reason I wanted to mention it today, Kenny. So it's the Minnesota Fraud Committee, the House committee led by Kristen Robbins, she's the chair. So they issue a final report at the end of the legislative session. It's 84 pages long. Basically laying all the blame for the fraud at the wa. Administration.

[Kenny]

By the way, I didn't get past the table of contents. I'm going to tell you the truth. I saw it and I instantly fell asleep.

[Jay]

Well, they did mention our stories on page 13, so I really, you know, self aggrandizing wanted to talk about it. But here's what was interesting.

[Kenny]

Let's see, I have it open right

[Jay]

here, bottom of page 13. You'll see my name.

[Kenny]

All right.

[Jay]

I think, I think it's the page 13.

[Kenny]

Go ahead.

[Jay]

But here's what's interesting, Kenny. It's 80 some pages and it lays all of the blame for the fraud at the Walz administration at the feet of the governor and his entire administration.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Jay]

And it was an interesting committee meeting. You see me, I watch these committee meetings. The Democrats got mad and would not vote to approve it, to send it to the floor for a vote for it to approve it out of committee. So the Republicans all voted yes and the Democrats all abstained.

[Kenny]

All of them?

[Jay]

All of them. So you got what, six on that committee? Six Democrats, Six.

[Kenny]

We're so tribal, but.

[Jay]

Right. I mean they wouldn't even.

[Kenny]

How many of those Democrats wanted to vote yes but didn't? Oh, it's gotta be because they don't have any choice.

[Jay]

They don't have any choice. So it did pass. And if you take a look at some chunks of it, it is pretty. I mean they go after the Walls administration and Governor Walz pretty good and pretty hard and the Democrats, you know, didn't like it and so they just chose not to vote at all. They just, they let it pass but they didn't vote. They abstained. Thought that was very interesting.

[Kenny]

We're never gonna get. Yeah, we're never gonna get through all of this, are we?

[Jay]

No, no, it'll. It'll taper off. They're gonna get this Office of Inspector General with law enforcement authority. Now that looks like it's passed. And the governor's already Sign it.

[Kenny]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Back up. Yeah, that passed it. It passed with the law enforcement.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[Kenny]

When did you find this out? Because we were just talking about this on GL today, how the law enforcement aspect was pulled out of it.

[Jay]

Oh, maybe. Well, at one point it was still in it.

[Kenny]

Well, remember our interview with Heather.

[Jay]

Heather Gustafson. Senator Gustafson.

[Kenny]

Yeah. And that was the one thing that she was upset about.

[Jay]

Yes, but I think they. I think it. I'm trying to Google it. Do I have time for this? I'd have to Google it.

[Kenny]

Well, we can pause.

[Jay]

Let's see here.

[Kenny]

I mean, if anything, we'll just pause the show.

[Jay]

Yeah, just pause it. Let me see if I can find the.

[Kenny]

Pause it a second, Gabe.

[Jay]

Yep.

[Kenny]

So you have the verbiage there. You can tell us what the. And it passed, right?

[Jay]

Correct. So the Office of Inspector General passed, and it's going to be independent of the. Well, the governor will nominate somebody, but then an independent group will approve it.

[Kenny]

Right.

[Jay]

And then it'll be autonomous. They'll have free reign to investigate.

[Kenny]

Who does that person answer to?

[Jay]

That would be the governor and the legislature. Yep. So.

[Kenny]

So whoever's in charge.

[Jay]

Yeah, but they're. They're supposedly going to be independent and have their own deal so that they don't have to worry about politics.

[Kenny]

Okay.

[Jay]

And it also says it empowers the Office of Inspector General to hire staff if the inspector general chooses for a specific law enforcement division that can conduct criminal investigations and make arrests. So it's in there. The law enforcement part is in there, Kenny. But it sounds like it's up to. Or it's at the discretion of who that inspector general would be.

[Kenny]

And this is still Heather's bill, right?

[Jay]

Yes, still Heather's bill.

[Kenny]

So she must be happy with this because they had taken the law enforcement aspect out.

[Jay]

And this must be some compromise where it doesn't mandate it, where the inspector general can or cannot at his or her will. But it passed. And that's a good first step. I mean, that to me, was the most important bill to fight fraud, such

[Kenny]

is fighting back on this. And he doesn't like any of this because he thinks this is, you know, and he's got a great point that this is just more money that we're going to be paying. You could make that argument and that it's going to be a heavily staffed office and, you know, on and off and on. And I think he's right.

[Jay]

He's right. It's Gonna be another layer of government

[Kenny]

will good come from this.

[Jay]

If it does this, if it employs this law enforcement part, Kenny. With the right to issue arrest warrants and make arrests and put people in jail and is autonomous from the legislature and the governor. I think it's a good thing. And yeah, Joe's right. It's gonna be more money and more bureaucracy. But what's the alternative? We've already lost at least 9 billion without something like this. To me, out of everything, I thought this was the best thing going. I would rather spend. What's it going to cost? 20 million for this office every year. I'd rather spend 20 million on this to prevent 9 billion going out the door.

[Kenny]

Those are numbers I'm not comfortable with

[Jay]

throwing around, numbers you and I will never see.

[Kenny]

How awesome is Marion? Reference?

[Jay]

She's pretty good.

[Kenny]

We've had her on GL a bunch. I love this lady.

[Jay]

I've interviewed her a ton, too, before. She was Marion Rarick, actually.

[Kenny]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And I found this bite because she's on the Senate floor. And I thought it ties in nicely with what Kirsten reported, with what Fay told us today and what Fay has told us in the past. This is Marion Rarick summing up efforts to fight fraud this year at the Capitol. Go ahead, gabe.

[Kirsten Swanson]

January of 25, Jody Harpstead was then the DHS commissioner in the Senate, and she said there's more rumors of fraud than actual fraud. There's more rumors of fraud than actual fraud. That is where we started this journey. And I appreciate Representative Franzen, because you've been on this journey longer than probably anyone fighting the fight for the daycare fraud, which again morphed into into more fraud and more fraud and more fraud. But this is where we started. And the Fraud committee also started about that same time. And as we began to meet with the fraud committee, we decided that we were going to reach out to the DHS whistleblowers on X. And at that time, there were only 430. And I say only because that number has exponentially grown. And so I was tasked with reaching out to those DHS whistleblowers. And I'll tell you, within literally hours of contacting them on X, they were so excited to tell us their story. And they did, over and over and over again. And you know what? That group of 430 grew. So now there's over a thousand that have joined together on X acts to tell their stories. And if you don't follow them, I recommend you go and follow them. And I'm sure they are watching right now because they watched every single fraud hearing. And they would message me afterwards, sometimes during. Sometimes they would give me intel during. And it is for them and for the state of Minnesota because they have been in this fight longer than anybody in this room. Those are the frontline workers that were retaliated against, against their jobs were threatened. Their children were threatened. They were asked by supervisors. We need to know where your children's bus stops are and where they go to school. What in the world does anyone need to know that for? They were being tracked. In their personnel files were pictures of them out in the community, in their homes. This is the stuff that they've been telling us. So I am. This is like the best day of the last two years is today because we finally have a solution for them because nothing else has worked. The ag. Where has he been? I don't know. But he's not prosecuting much. Where has everybody been? January of 25.

[Jay]

The reason I thought that was so good.

[Kenny]

I love, I love. She got that dig in. Right.

[Jay]

Where has he been? Yeah. But I just thought it was incredible what she said about what DHS is doing to retaliate.

[Kenny]

Yeah. Isn't that something?

[Jay]

Yeah. Where your children. Bus stop is photos of them in their personnel file.

[Kenny]

Are you kidding me?

[Jay]

Right? That's why I'm so glad Gabe reminded me that I sent it to you guys. I forgot I sent that bite to you guys.

[Kenny]

This is. This is like, like Russia nonsense.

[Jay]

It's such a remarkable statement. And now she says there's over a thousand of these whistleblowers. And what did we learn? There was about 8,300 from Kirsten total. Yeah. So you're almost to. You know, if they get to 2,000 whistleblowers, it'll be one fourth of the entire agency as whistleblowers. So. Yeah, I thought the rare thing was good. Thanks, Gabe, for reminding me. This is what happens when you're 65. Oh yeah, that's a really good sound bite. We should play it.

[Kenny]

She's. Marion's great. When she comes into the studio, she comes in with a stack of folders and papers and sets them down and just starts going through it. We could do a 10 hour show with Marion and she has so much info.

[Jay]

It's so funny you should mention that, Kenny, because I've interviewed her in her Senate office before for stories, I think two or three times. Same thing. She had her whole desk full of paper. And I would say to her, I'd go, yeah, you know, we only have Two minutes to tell the story. I got two minutes, Mary. What do you want me to do with all this paper?

[Kenny]

Shoving eight hours of shit into a two minute bag.

[Jay]

But she was, she was. And the reason that caught my attention to Kenny was because that was just like two days ago or something like that. Or maybe six days ago now. May 7th would be a week ago. May 7th. Okay.

[Kenny]

Last Thursday.

[Jay]

Okay. So. And that's when they were voting on the office of Inspector General Bill.

[Kenny]

Yep.

[Jay]

So I thought, wow, that's good. Let's roll that in the show because it was pretty good.

[Kenny]

So before we go, I'm gonna run a name past you. Okay. Bob Crowell.

[Jay]

Oh, yeah, this is gonna be good. Bob's agreed to join us next Wednesday. And unless something crazy comes up, he'll be here. For those who don't know, Bob Kroll is the former president of the Minneapolis Police Union. And he's a very opinionated guy and he doesn't do interviews. So. So we're gonna get a one on one with Bob to talk about anything we want to talk about from what's going on today with MPD in the city and what was going on back with Jhene Harto.

[Kenny]

And I've already got about a thousand. I'm like Marion Rarick. I've got files and files of questions for Bob. So many.

[Jay]

He reached out to me and said that he finally listened to our interview with Liz and he really liked it. And he said, you know what, I don't usually do these, but for you guys, I'll do it. And I said, said, attaboy, Bob. We want to get an exclusive with you, so that'll be fun. I want to hear. I can't wait to talk to him.

[Kenny]

Yeah, that's going to be fun. And we don't have to. What's even better, what's our motto here?

[Jay]

Minimal effort, maximum glory.

[Kenny]

Yeah, neither one of us have to do any show prep at all for this. We'll just show up in our underpants and put our feet up and turn Bob loose.

[Jay]

Although you know what I'll be doing next Monday and Tuesday? Even though I know we got Bob coming in on Wednesday, I'll be trying to get something for the next week.

[Kenny]

Yeah, get busy on that, won't you, please?

[Jay]

I'll try. All right. Good show today. Thanks.

[Kenny]

Thank you, Gabe. Thank you, Jay. And thanks to everyone for listening to news from the Crabby Coffee Shop.

[Jay]

Do appreciate it.

[Faye Bernstein]

Everybody talked about it since I first moved to Oregon. The big one, the earthquake that trashed the whole West Coast. Total destruction.

[Jay]

Officially calling it the largest natural disaster in American history.

[Faye Bernstein]

I just didn't know what would help me next. So I took it all.

[Kirsten Swanson]

Even the gun. It was time.

[Jay]

Cello see why American Afterlife is the number one fiction and drama podcast in America. Presented by Pair of Thieves. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite shows available now.