MISCHKE: The Wreck of the Mentor (ep. 130)

Summary

Garage Logic – “MISCHKE: The Wreck of the Mentor (ep. 130)”
Date: July 22, 2026
Host: Mishke
Guest: Eric J. Dolan, author of The Wreck of the Mentor

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Episode Overview

This episode of Garage Logic dives into the gripping maritime survival story chronicled in Eric J. Dolan’s new book, The Wreck of the Mentor: A True Story of Death, Despair, and Deliverance in the Age of Sail. Mishke sits down with Dolan to explore the harrowing true tale of the 19th-century whaling ship Mentor and its ill-fated crew, whose shipwreck on a Pacific reef sparks not just a life-or-death struggle but a years-long odyssey involving deprivation, astonishing cross-cultural encounters, and the limits of human endurance. The conversation highlights both the broader context of American whaling and the remarkable survival saga that unfolds after disaster strikes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Eric J. Dolan’s Maritime Wheelhouse

• Dolan’s fascination with the ocean started early, inspired by Jacques Cousteau.

• He transitioned from biology to environmental policy and eventually to full-time maritime writing.

• His works focus on the Age of Sail, blending oceanic themes but with varied stories (03:03-05:38).

  “I think that my books, even though they all have a maritime theme, they're quite, quite different stories pulled together by the ocean.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (05:31)

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2. The Golden Age of American Whaling

• Post-War of 1812, U.S. whaling became a massive industry—up to 750 out of 900 ships worldwide were American.

• Mentor was a whaling ship hunting sperm whales, whose oil literally lit the world before kerosene (06:54-08:52).

  “The primary goal was to slaughter whales, to render their blubber into oil, which was used to illuminate life.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (07:57)

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3. Life Aboard a Whaling Ship

• Crews were often “green hands" with little to no sea experience; labor shortages led to very young crew members.

• The whaling process: risky “Nantucket sleigh rides” after striking a whale, with many dangers.

• Odds of survival were low, physical harm or death common (08:52-13:48).

  “Well, first of all, you would not be a good salesperson for whaling voyages in the 1800s. You make it sound horrific, which in many cases it was.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (12:25)

  “There were also horrible instances of people's legs and arms getting caught in this rope as it's whizzing out of the boat... they could be yanked under the water in a split second.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (13:26)

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4. The Mentor’s Voyage and Catastrophic Wreck

• Mentor set out in 1831 for whales but found little success, embarking on a long, fruitless journey around the Cape of Good Hope to the Pacific.
• Navigational miscalculation during a storm led to the ship striking a reef (15:38-17:23).
• In the chaos:
  • The first mate and nine men escape in a whaleboat and are never seen again.
  • Captain Barnard and others have a harrowing near-drowning before some return to the battered vessel.
  • The survivors wait for dawn to make their next move (17:23-22:30).

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5. Survival, Leadership, and the Law of the Sea

• Post-wreck, the captain is no longer “supreme leader”; leadership becomes more democratic but Barnard is still respected.

• The survivors must endure, scavenging supplies, with no contact or hope of quick rescue.

• Notably, most sailors couldn’t swim—a shocking detail (22:30-23:04).

  “The swimming revolution in the United States at least didn't really take off until the turn of the 20th century.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (23:04)

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6. The Odyssey: Years of Struggle, Enslavement, and Survival

• After landfall, the survivors split; some are taken in by Pacific islanders in Palau.

• Their journey involves:

  • Being treated at times generously—waited on, celebrated, shown empathy.
  • Enduring horrific deprivation, slavery, starvation, and even forced tattooing.
  • The ordeal lasts up to five years before final rescues (26:45-29:51).

  “Adversity introduces a man to himself. Yeah, they were incredibly trying situations...”
  — Eric J. Dolan (28:53)

• President Andrew Jackson is drawn into helping rescue the last survivors after escaped sailors return and appeal for help (29:51-31:08).

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7. Encounters with Pacific Islanders

• The fate of shipwrecked sailors depended on prior Western contact—some islands were hostile due to past betrayals, others hospitable.

• The importance of interpreters, particularly “beachcombers” (Westerners who had settled into native life), is highlighted.

• Hostage-taking was used as a bargaining chip by islanders (34:23-40:28).

  “Just think how different this story would be if old Charlie hadn't been there. Because all of a sudden they could communicate.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (39:46)

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8. Tattooing and Cultural Exchange

• Forced tattooing as both a physical ordeal and cross-cultural encounter, with evidence from survivors’ published works and journalistic accounts.

• Taboos (like face tattoos) were successfully resisted by invoking Western spiritual beliefs (33:57-34:23).

  “If you tattoo our faces, our God is going to come down and wreak vengeance upon you. And the Tobians did not want to see if that was, in fact, going to happen, so they relented.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (33:57)

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9. The Role and Perspective of “Beachcombers”

• Hundreds of sailors became “beachcombers,” integrating into island life for good or ill.
• Many had no reason (or desire) to return to the U.S., and some had much higher quality of life than at home.
• Perspectives on integration, sexuality, and adaptation to foreign cultures discussed (55:58-59:16).

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10. Legacy, Myth, and the Changing View of Whaling

• Whalemen’s reputation shifted from revered “daredevils” to a tough, often marginalized labor class.

• Survivor accounts became hot literary and press commodities; some, however, refused to tell their stories due to trauma or illiteracy (53:19-54:16).

• Whaling itself became romanticized in the public imagination, but in reality, was a grim, perilous, and often unrewarding pursuit (61:05-63:45).

  “There's something about these shipwreck stories that just grab a lot of people.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (61:25)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “The world of whaling in the 19th century. Didn't you say it was the fifth largest industry in the U.S.?”
  — Mishke (06:54)

• “There comes a point when you just can't carry on if you don't have enough food... it was really amazing how they survived, how they escaped from the island.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (28:53)

• “They were forcibly tattooed... they said, you know what? Just kill us. We would rather be dead. Kill us.”
  — Mishke (33:26)

• “Depending on where you are in this book... at times you think you're in paradise... at times you’re on the verge of death.”
  — Mishke (46:01)

• “A lot of these native cultures before they got ripped apart by the west... seem to be very happy. They were definitely much more sexually permissive than the Victorian society.”
  — Eric J. Dolan (58:13)

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Notable Timestamps

• 00:42–03:03: Introduction of guest and book’s subject
• 04:21–06:54: Dolan’s path to ocean writing & themes of his work
• 06:54–08:52: The scale and significance of the American whaling industry
• 12:25–13:48: The very real dangers and physical risks of whaling
• 17:23–22:30: The Mentor’s wreck and immediate aftermath
• 26:45–29:51: Early struggles; beginning of the years-long survival saga
• 29:51–31:08: The President’s role in rescue and American press coverage
• 33:26–34:23: The ordeal of forced tattooing
• 39:46–40:28: The role of the “beachcomber” interpreter
• 46:36–47:24: Cultural beauty standards, e.g., blackened teeth of Palauans
• 53:19–54:16: The trauma and silence of some returned survivors
• 61:05–63:45: Reflections on why shipwreck and whaling tales continue to grip imaginations

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Conclusion

The Wreck of the Mentor is a riveting account of peril, loss, and the unpredictable course of shipwreck survival, told with empathy for both the men and the diverse islanders they encountered. Mishke and Dolan discuss not just the facts of the voyage and its aftermath, but also the changing nature of whaling, shifting attitudes about the “other,” and the ways such real-life adventures take hold of our culture’s imagination.

For more on Eric J. Dolan’s work, visit: ericjdolan.com

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Transcript

[Mishke]

As technology becomes more complex, cyber reality dominates the culture and AI becomes an endless, anxious discussion. Simple, old human storytelling becomes all the more precious. And that's what you'll find on the Mishki Podcast. In the end, we're all just people. Folks with our brilliance and our absurdities and stories about people. Well, they never get old. The Mishke Podcast Wherever you get your podcasts,

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[Eric J. Dolan]

Whales have been hunted by humans for thousands of years. I can't imagine how people back in the day were able to hunt such a large animal in the middle of the ocean with such limited resources.

[Mishke]

My name's Mishke. Whale voyages were dirty and extremely dangerous.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Injuries and death were not uncommon. Why did they go through all this trouble? Some voyages lasting several years and thousands and thousands of miles.

[Mishke]

I'm holding a book here, the Wreck of the Mentor A true story of Death, Despair, and Deliverance in the Age of Sail. I have the author of the book here with me. One of my favorite things in the world is to finish a book, close the COVID knowing that I get to spend some time with the author and talk to him about this extraordinary story I just encountered. The author, Eric J. Dolan is with me and I welcome him.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Thanks for having me on. It's funny you say it's enjoyable talking to the author after you finish A book. I've got to tell you, one of the best things about writing books is hearing from people who've read them, especially when they like the book. It's not so nice when people don't like the book.

[Mishke]

I've been interviewing authors for 30 years. I don't interview an author if I don't like the book. So I'm trying to figure out what that would sound like. You read the book, you hate it, you get the author on what a weird interview that would be. I want to let people know of your other books because I sense a theme here, so I'm letting you folks know. This latest book by Eric J. Dolan is the Wreck of the Mentor. And Left for Dead is another one. Shipwreck, Treachery and Survival at the Edge of the World. Rebels at Sea is another one. Privateering in the American Revolution. A Furious Sky. Yet another book. The 500 Year History of America's Hurricanes. Black Flags, Blue Waters. The Epic History of America's Most Notorious Pirates. Brilliant. A History of the American Lighthouse. What do we got going on here? You have a wheelhouse you like to hang out in?

[Eric J. Dolan]

Absolutely. Well, when I was a kid, I wanted to be Jacques Cousteau. When I grew up and I was really into biology and seashells, I thought I was going to be a scientist. I went off to college to become a malacologist and I ran smack into physics, science and chemistry. I didn't like the lab work, so I got an environmental policy. I went and got a master's and a PhD in public policy. But I've always loved the ocean because of that initial fascination with Jacques Cousteau and anything in the ocean. And I always been writing in high school, I wrote in college, I wrote op eds, little things on the side. But it wasn't until late 1990s that I decided I wanted to be a full time writer. And I had to pick topics that were going to get me to that, that end. And the ocean just naturally became a topic that I was fascinated by because I've always lived near the ocean. I live in Marblehead, Massachusetts now. I lived in Long Island Sound, lived in Stamford, Connecticut. Always been near the ocean. And I find the best ocean stories allow me to talk about the Age of Sail primarily, which just was a fascinating age with many, many great stories. And I think that my books, even though they all have a maritime theme, they're quite, quite different stories pulled together by the ocean.

[Mishke]

When I look at the COVID of your book and I see that ship in a storm And I read the title, the Wreck of the Mentor, and then I read a true story of death, despair and deliverance in the age of Sail. Nothing there tells me that this will be the wreck of a whaling vessel. And nothing here mentions anything about whaling. And I understand why, because the wreck of this whaling ship is really just the beginning of the story. It's not going to be a book about whaling. And yet I do feel I have to start with whaling. And you are obviously a guy who knows one heck of a lot about this subject in the 19th century. The mentor is a whaling ship that heads out in 1831, and in 1832, it wrecks. It has about a year out on the open sea and does quite a bit of traveling looking for whales. And I love to start here. The world of whaling in the 19th century. Didn't you say it was the fifth largest industry in the U.S. yes, yes.

[Eric J. Dolan]

What happened is right after the War of 1812 ended, the golden age of whaling commenced. They'd been whaling in the colonies going back to the 1600s, taking advantage of whales that washed ashore, attacking whales near shore, and then going farther afield. But after The War of 1812, in the 1820s, 30s, 40s and 50s, America became the premier whaling country. First Nantucket and then New Bedford were the premier whaling ports, sending out hundreds of whaling ships. I mean, at one point, there were 900 whaling ships worldwide, and of that, 750 were American. And the majority of those came out of New Bedford. So, yes, this was big business. The primary goal was to slaughter whales, to render their blubber into oil, which was used to illuminate life. Literally everything from lighthouses to lamps on the street to lamps in your house. So it was a huge business. And the Mentor was going out primarily to target sperm whales, which were the most valuable whale of all because the oil rendered from their blubber and gotten out of their bulbous heads, out of the spermaceti organ was the cleanest, burning and brightest whale oil of all. So it was very valuable. The Mentor went out, it didn't have much luck in the Atlantic. It went around the Cape of Good Hope, didn't have much luck in the Indian Ocean, and finally sailed all the way to the Pacific, which was literally teeming with millions of sperm whales. And as you mentioned, that's where the wreck takes place. So the whaling industry is really a backdrop for the book, if you want to learn more about whaling. I wrote an entire book on whaling in America called Leviathan, the History of Whaling in America. But it is A fascinating part of the book that this was a whale ship, but after they crashed, that's just the absolute beginning of the story.

[Mishke]

As you know, the reason the whaling thing is intriguing to me is because these are the men, the 22 who are heading out from New Bedford. They are whaling men. And when you have 750 ships going out a year, which is still hard for me to get my head around, 750 ships, you're not going to be looking at the cream of the crop. For every ship that's too many ships, you're eventually going to be saying, hey, Bob, you with the broom? Want to go out and find a whale with me? You're going to have to take anybody.

[Eric J. Dolan]

You've definitely hit on a theme of the golden age of whaling, because as the fleets expanded, the labor requirements also expanded. But this was a time when the United States was sort of coming into its own. There were more opportunities on land, so fewer people wanted to leave the comforts of home and get on a whale ship and go out 1, 2, 3, 4 years searching for whales. So they had a tougher time finding people to man those ships. And what ended up happening is quite a few people on board were often green hands. They had never been to sea before. And that was the case with the mentor. There were a number of green hands on board, but you're absolutely correct. The caliber of the whalemen that was getting on board whale ships in the 1830s when this story takes place, they weren't as competent in whaling or sailing than their predecessors.

[Mishke]

And you also have. Hey, how old are you there, Timmy? 15. That's good enough for us. Get on board. No sense letting your folks know where you're heading. I mean, they were taking young kids. It's really extraordinary to me. And again, they're not going out for a little sale. This whole endeavor is insane. You're going out for two to four years. Two to four years, and you're going to be all over the world. And what you're going to do when you get to a whale, these are guys who are going to have to. After they find the whale, they're a hundred feet up in the air looking from some tower. Hey, there she blows. And, okay, lower. The whaling boat. What are Those things about 20ft long, the whaling boats?

[Eric J. Dolan]

24, 25ft.

[Mishke]

24, 25. Send those out towards the whale. What's the plan? The plan is we're going to get on top of this thing, the largest beast in the world, and we're going to just put a Couple harpoons in it, and then let her go and we'll tire it out. So people think, oh, you went out there to kill it. No, no, no, no. You went to put a couple harpoons in it, and then it took off. And then you went. What do they call it? The Nantucket sleigh ride. Then you went for the ride of your life, hoping to God you survived that. And after miles and miles and hours, eventually that thing would tire out. And then maybe you could find a lung or a heart to puncture. But what I don't understand. And then I'll get to the rest of this book. But what I don't understand is, was it a flip of the coin when you put the harpoon in on whether that thing would give you that sleigh ride, which is what you wanted? You wanted it to tire itself out. Was it a flip of the coin whether it did that or whether it went diving down taking you with it, or whether it just took its tail and took you out?

[Eric J. Dolan]

Well, first of all, you would not be a good salesperson for whaling voyages in the 1800s. You make it sound horrific, which in many cases it was. Whether it was a flip of the coin, I can't give you statistical numbers. But yes, many whale boats were destroyed by especially sperm whales were known to be deadly, both in the front and the back. They had this bulbous battering ram of a head, but they also had a mighty fluke that often came down on a whale boat. So it was quite dangerous. There were instances in which the sperm whale, once harpooned, took out its wrath on the whale boats and turned them into splinters or even chewed them, sometimes turned around with their massive jaw that had teeth in the bottom half of it and sort of chomped on the whale boat. So, yes, it was very, very dangerous. Most of the time, however, the whale boats survived. Most of the time, the whale would take off wanting to get away from this attacker, but. But sometimes they did go straight down. But that wasn't as usual as going sort of along the surface to try to get as far away as possible. There are also horrible instances of people's legs and arms getting caught in this rope as it's whizzing out of the boat, and they could be yanked under the water in a split second. So it was very, very dangerous.

[Mishke]

Yeah, these guys are going out, really, on the ultimate hunt. I'll tell you what, I would have loved just to be in the bars afterwards. I'm a big fan of the bar afterwards. In fact, the Bars instead. But you're in the bar hearing these stories of these guys going out on the greatest hunt, going, what's a greater hunt than that in the world at that time? I'm going out to hunt the biggest creature on earth in his or her home territory. And a lot of us don't come back. And you say to yourself, what is the draw? And you mentioned it earlier, the sperm whale oil. As soon as they figured out that it was the cleanest burning, the brightest burning, and there was no smell, it just sounded like the perfect. Like it was made to light the world. And it did up until the 1850s when they discovered oil, and all of a sudden you had kerosene. But here's the thing I love about what's in that head. 300 to 500 gallons of. Of this oil in each head of a sperm whale. And they're bringing back. Do I have this right? Wooden barrels by the thousand per ship.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. If they're successful. A lot of men who went on board these whale ships, they had visions and they had heard stories of the most successful whaling voyages. However, counterbalancing that were a number of voyages in which people came back and they literally only earned maybe a penny a day, or. Or sometimes they came back in debt because before they got on the whale ship, they had to pay outfitters to fill up their sea chest with all the things that they would need on this long voyage. So if they didn't make money when they came back, they were in debt. So it was. It was a lot like gambling.

[Mishke]

So you got the captain of the mentor wanting to make this a worthwhile trip, and he's not finding what he's looking for. He's not finding it in the Atlantic. He's heading off to the Indian Ocean. He's not finding it. He's going around the. What do you call that southern tip? The Horn.

[Eric J. Dolan]

No, he didn't go around the Horn. He went around the Cape of Good Hope, the southern tip of Africa. He went the other direction.

[Mishke]

Oh, he went the other direction.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah.

[Mishke]

And the Pacific, that was like the San Francisco gold rush. That's Sperm whale city. That's where they are by the millions.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yep. That was the place that almost all whale ships wanted to end up during the golden age of whaling because of the sperm whale. It was just absolutely the most valuable whale of all.

[Mishke]

And he runs into a storm, which is not unusual. It obviously is something that happened all the time. It's just that he wasn't able. Without being able to see the stars to Figure out where exactly he was during a long storm that's going on for a long time, and he miscalculates. And instead of thinking he's in the big old wide open ocean, he's very close to islands and more importantly, a reef that is going to end up being the death of his ship. Because that storm is going to pound that ship into that reef and destroy it. And those 22 on board are going to be lucky to survive. Because when you hit a reef in a storm, middle of the night, it's like God is picking up the thing and smashing against a concrete wall. I mean, it's just beating the hell out of the ship.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yes.

[Mishke]

It's just going to beat it all night.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. Once it knocks into the reef, there's a massive hole in the hull, and it's sort of stopped dead, but it keeps getting pounded by the waves. And so everybody on board knew that the ship was done for. They weren't going to sail the Mentor anymore. They had some whale boats on board. So what they had to decide is, what are we going to do? Are we going to hang on until the morning when we could see Right before the crash, they saw some kind of land in the distance, or did they disembark right then and there and get into a whaleboat and think they have a better chance of that? And since the ship crashed, the Captain Barnard is no longer the supreme leader of the ship. And the crew splintered. The first mate and nine other men got into a whaleboat, shoved off, and they were never seen again. And then Barnard, he decides he wants to go off on a whaleboat with three other men that volunteer to go with him. But that whaleboat is lowered down into the water, and before it makes it to the water, a wave smashes it against the side of the Mentor, and that whale boat is destroyed. All four men are pitched into the water. One of them drowns immediately. Two of them are able to swim back to the Mentor, which is kind of unusual. Mariners didn't know how to swim very often back then. And then Barnard, he had been smart. He sort of had an insurance policy. He had a rope tied around his waist before he got into the whale boat, thinking that if something happened and it was tipped over or swamped, he could be pulled back to the Mentor. And that's exactly what happened. When he got pitched into the water, he was still tethered to the rope. The remaining 11 men on board the Mentor pulled him, or the 10 of them actually pulled him to the ship, and he got Back on board. And then they all waited until the dawn. Then they had to decide their next move.

[Mishke]

So what's fascinating about this part of the book to me is you realize how dire it has to be on that ship for you to want to get off that ship. There's there. You're in the middle of a storm. I can't imagine wanting to leave that ship in the middle of the night. That everybody thought it best to get off that ship says something about how that thing is getting battered. I can't get in my head how it still isn't best to stay on a whaling ship Unless they're thinking in the morning it's going to be disintegrated to nothing and you will be just another board bashed against the reef.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah, that was a calculation they had to make. And clearly the first mate and the nine people that went with him, they either thought that the ship wasn't going to survive the night, or they just had some inherent belief that in a whale boat they would be able to find land nearby. And keep in mind, they did see a speck of land in the distance right before they crashed. So they knew that there was land nearby. And what a reef tells you, Reefs just don't pop up in the middle of an ocean.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[Eric J. Dolan]

They're usually near land. But they must have decided that they didn't think the ship was going to make it till the. The. The morning. And Barnard perhaps didn't think it was going to make it till the morning either.

[Mishke]

What I found myself wondering was whether any of those guys had ever been in one of those whaling boats that they lowered into the sea had ever been in a storm in one of those whaling boats. Because one group goes out, they all die. 10 guys all die. Another group goes out, they think this will work out. They don't even get started and it's over. But I also am intrigued by the fact that the guys who stay afterwards and say, okay, we'll ride it out, they tie themselves down. So there must have been this rocking that they could have been thrown up in the air and out of the boat.

[Eric J. Dolan]

They didn't want to be washed overboard.

[Mishke]

I think of that Next day, the storm has passed. The sun shines. The. The seas are calmer. Sure, their ships destroyed, but they're alive. And they are able to get to some kind of what seemed like just a glorified sandbar.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Right.

[Mishke]

Not an island yet. Just get to a. Just to kind of take stock. And I think they loaded up a few things, a keg of water, hardtack clothes, a musket, pair of pistols, compass, sextant, tinderbox, and this is it. And here they are. And as you have described, there's no post office, there's no phone, there's no Internet. They're in the Pacific sitting on this sandbar. Their ship's done home is far, far, far away. Half the crew is already gone. Of the 22, there's 11 of them. And, well, this is a fine mess we have ourselves in here. And you mentioned two things that intrigued me earlier. You said as soon as a ship wrecks with the laws of the sea, captain is no longer in charge. The second that ship wrecks, it's not the captain's crew anymore. He's just a guy.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Correct. But however, Barnard was respected by a number of the men on board. He still is treated somewhat like a leader.

[Mishke]

And I love that they call him the old man. This. This guy is 31 years of age, folks. The old man is 31. But if you're 15 years old, then I guess that is the old man. The other thing you said, which. This makes no sense to me at all. Pretty common for sailors, not. I can't even say it without laughing. Pretty common for sailors not to know how to swim.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. The swimming revolution in the United States at least didn't really take off until the turn of the 20th century. And in the 1850s, 1830s, 1820s, it would have been very uncommon for people in the United States along the coast to go to a beach and actively swim. That just wasn't part of their growing up. They didn't learn how to swim.

[Mishke]

It doesn't surprise me then that the 10 who headed out on that night in the middle of the night in that storm, who were never seen nor heard from again. It doesn't surprise me in that storm that they were never seen again. All it would have taken was that boat being flipped. And those guys don't know how to swim. There are no life jackets. So where we are right now, this is really what I want to make clear to people. We're basically at the beginning of this book. That's where we are with this thing right now. That's what's so extraordinary about this. This is just when the story gets good and we've been through a pretty harrowing stretch already. I do ads for North American Banking Company. What I try to get you guys to do is to look at that as possibly your bank. In other words, moving from where you are to North American Banking Company. You're saying to yourself. Why would I do that? Well, what if I'm right in what I've said about North American Banking Company? What if you're just happier there? What if you like dealing with those people at this neighborhood bank to such a degree that you're grateful I told you about them? What if you do find that these big soulless national banking chains don't make life as pleasurable as dealing with a neighborhood bank, a community bank, a bank born right here in this area, not going anywhere else. Just six locations in the Twin Cities, one near you. North American Banking Company. Four generations of banking. People who believe they should know your name if you're a customer. People who believe they should know about your business, your neighborhood, that that makes a difference when it comes to things like home loans, business loans, personal loans. Far more than numbers on the page. Why don't you at least look into it? North American Banking Company Member fdic Equal Housing Lender

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Mishke]

I've been doing ads for the Wellshire for a good while now. I'd be curious to know if anybody out there listening has placed their loved one in the Wellshire and what your experience is. I would like to hear about it. You've heard me go on and on and on about the Wellshire in Bloomington and Medina. This memory care center focused solely on memory care. This revolutionary idea. Divide your place up four households for the four different stages of memory loss. I've talked about the amenities of. I've talked about how well appointed this place is. I've talked about the town square environment. I've talked about the live music and the gardens and the balconies. But what I want to know is what's your experience? If you have taken me up on this and brought your loved one to the well shire, if they've had dementia or Alzheimer's, please text me and let me know about the experience. 6513-2189-4965-1321-8949.

[Eric J. Dolan]

That's it, lads. Steady. He's pulling. It's weakening. Good hit, Captain.

[Mishke]

Get him before he snaps that tail.

[Eric J. Dolan]

It's weakening. Watch out.

[Mishke]

I'm fascinated by the fact that you have found a story that not one of my listeners would have ever heard of. And it's a great story. It's a great story. You're very lucky to have come upon this. And it's not a story without a lot of documentation, A lot of stuff that you were able to find where you could really learn about this extraordinary tale and all that happens. Folks, what happens after this? It's a five year odyssey. It's a long haul. It's a wondrous long haul for some of these guys. It's going to be five years, four or five years before they're back. And some of it's wonderful experiences with islanders where there's generosity and there's kindness and there's care and there are moments of celebration and them being waited on hand and foot. And then horrific deprivation and horrible treatment because they now begin an odyssey. How are they going to get back home to the United States? What is this long road back? How will it ever happen? And in some cases, they're going to end up in the hands of people where the treatment is going to be hard to read about. I mean, there were sections where the condition they ended up in reminded me of someone in a concentration camp. They were skin and bones. They were so on the verge of dying from starvation that their bones started to actually poke out of their skin, literally come out of the skin. There's going to be that level of deprivation. There's going to be heroic efforts to get the hell off an island. And if a ship's coming by to get to a ship, it has all those elements of these great survival stories. What's the quote you use where a man comes face to face with himself?

[Eric J. Dolan]

Adversity introduces a man to himself. Yeah, they were incredibly trying situations, especially the latter half of the book. And the. What it really shows to me is anybody who reads a book like this, I can't imagine them not thinking, what would I have done in this situation? And that's a tough question to answer. I'd like to think that if I was put in this situation that the will to live and the desire to make it back to my home and my family would have enabled me to deal with these sufferings and carry on. There comes a point when you just can't carry on if you don't have enough food. And a number of the people did die of starvation. And no matter how tough you are and how mentally tough you are, you can't overcome not eating enough food. But it was really amazing how they survived, how they escaped from the island. And finally, after almost five years, the last of the crew making it back to the United States.

[Mishke]

Thanks to the President of the United States. Yes, the President of the United States ultimately rescues. The last couple of guys I mentioned earlier, we were talking about 700 ships going out. I mean, think of all the people and all the potential disasters and lost souls and people who disappear. What the heck was Jackson doing even getting involved in this?

[Eric J. Dolan]

Well, first of all, a lot of the whale ships, they get lost in a reef someplace and. And they may have all died or never made it to land with natives. So maybe they basically disappear into the ether. Then. It's hard to launch a rescue mission if you have no idea what happened to the ship and the men on it whatsoever. The thing that was beneficial for the men and the mentor is that as a result of escaping, a couple of men escaping over a period of a year or two and making it back to civilization, they were able to share the story. And when they got back to the United States, there was an awful lot of coverage in newspapers. Plus Captain Barnard wrote an impassioned letter to the Secretary of the Navy imploring him to go to the Pacific or send a ship to the Pacific to rescue the remaining whalemen.

[Mishke]

There were a couple guys who were able to escape and they eventually get back to the United States. When you say escape, we have to say escape from what? They were being held at one point as quasi slaves. They were starving. They were ordered to work for these islanders in the Pacific. They were treated poorly. One horrific stretch, they were forcibly tattooed. I interviewed a woman a while back who wrote about this guy in the United States who was the most tattooed guy of all time. He was tattooed head to, I think, everything but his eyeballs. And he could be seen in the 19th century at various fairs and carnivals and people would pay to see him. And the myth at the time that they would play with this woman told me was that he had been held down on some island overseas and forcibly tattooed by some crazy women. And when I interviewed her, she talked about, yeah, that was a myth that was told that if you went overseas, you would find yourself in these exotic places where women would hold you down and tattoo you. And it was very painful. And I got done with her interview thinking, well, that doesn't really happen. That's just a myth. That's exactly what happened with these guys, islanders who forcibly tattoo them where they were held as slaves.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah, no, it definitely happened. And James o', Connell, the guy that you're talking about, he sort of went around the country and he became a freak show. And P.T. barnum hired him at one point. And there's no doubt that the men of the mentor were tattooed because reporters reported on it. And one of the men that came back, Horace Holden, who wrote a book about his ordeal, he showed his tattoos to a number of reporters who wrote in depth articles about it. But he decided that he didn't want to become a showman and go around the country showing off his tattoos, trying to earn money. So he was very reluctant to show it to anybody else after that. But there is absolutely proof that Westerners were tattooed on these islands, sometimes forcibly.

[Mishke]

People need to know. It's not like tattooing today. It's extraordinarily painful to be tattooed. And they weren't just going to tattoo a little bit. It wasn't like a little mark. They were even going to move from the torso up onto the face. But these guys were so horrified by them then moving to the face with how much this hurt, that they said, you know what? Just kill us. We would rather be dead. Kill us. And they eventually didn't do the face.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. Not only because of the men's reaction, but by this point, the whalemen knew that they believed in a God, multiple gods. So the whalemen basically said, listen, we have a God, too, and if you tattoo our faces, our God is going to come down and wreak vengeance upon you. And the Tobians did not want to see if that was, in fact, going to happen, so they relented on tattooing the faces.

[Mishke]

One of the roles of the dice, in terms of where you had your shipwreck, one of the rolls of the dice was, are you wrecking near an island where the last ship to wreck was loaded with sailors who were jerks to those people? Because if they were jerks, you're in big trouble. Or are you wrecking near an island where the last wreck was filled with people who helped these islanders, in which case you. You might have a better time here. And there were both kinds of people out there, but you didn't know who the last group to come through was. It sounds like there's all these little islands and different governments, all under the heading of this one name.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. Palau.

[Mishke]

Palau.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. The archipelago of Palau had over 300 islands. And yes, there are multiple villages. Each village had its own sphere of power and influence, and they often went to war with one another. The story you're talking about is there was a shipwreck at another village, not the one where the Americans ended up. And they ended up giving the local villagers arms and ammunition and fighting with them in wars. And so when the Mentor wrecked and the Americans ended up in this other village, a village that had been vanquished by the village that the British had helped the people in Engarshalang, the village where the Americans were, they said, hey, the British crash here. They gave the Kororese guns and ammunition, made them the most powerful village. You guys, when you go back to the United States, you need to promise to bring back 200 guns and ammunition so we can be powerful and we can fight back against Koror.

[Mishke]

Yeah. And then there would be a ship that would come in and do some wheeling and dealing with these islanders, and the wheeling and dealing would go awry. The sailors wouldn't hold up their end of the bargain in terms of this trade and would just take off for. With the islanders stuff. Well, now the next group to come along, they're going to pay the price for that.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Absolutely. And that happened quite a lot, unfortunately. And unfortunately, whalemen were often the perpetrators, the ones that acted poorly. And there are a couple of cases of that that I talk about in the book. Yes, it could end up very poorly if you happen to be the next Westerners that show up on an island that was just cheated out of its iron and things that it thought it was trading for. Because what would often happen is the islanders would give the Western things that they wanted, which was basically food. And then in exchange for those things, the Westerners were supposed to give the islanders. Metal, iron, nails, hoops on barrels, mirrors were very popular tools. So imagine if you're natives who have just been very welcoming, didn't attack these westerners, gave them the things they asked for, and you were promised things in return. And then that night, the Westerners take off without paying their bills. Yeah, you'd be very upset. The village of Engarschalong, where the Americans ended up just a few months before, a Western ship, British had traded with the Angarshelanese, and it cheated them and also shot at them. So they were really upset. And that's why the beachcomber that lived in Angarshalan, who ended up being an interpreter, said, it's a miracle you're alive because of how these villagers were so poorly treated just recently, I would have thought that they would have killed you out in the open water.

[Mishke]

So this beach comber phenomenon, I have to ask you about this. If you imagine these 11 guys after this first night, safe, alive, storm has passed. They're going to live, but where on earth are they and what are they going to face. And 20 natives come paddling up in assorted canoes, completely naked, long hair, jet black teeth. I want to ask you about why the teeth are jet black, tattooed, heavily armed. They have battle axes, clubs, spears, and they're coming up and you think, well, maybe it would have been better to just drown last night. Maybe that would have been the ideal. I should have just jumped off and opened my mouth and taken in salt water. And what I'm intrigued by is once they're able to make it clear they're not Brits, and I don't even know how you make that clear when you don't know the language, that they're Americans and they haven't even heard of Americans. So once, once they're able to make it clear they're not Brits, that changes things. Okay, we're not going to just kill all you guys right now because you're not the guys who screwed us over. But there's this sense of how are we going to communicate with these people? How are we ever going to have any kind of meaningful conversation? And this idea of the beachcomber, I learned in your book that old Charlie comes along. Good old Charlie the beachcomber. I mean, I'm thinking this is a guy with a metal detector in California in the 1970s. I mean, it just sounds like old Charlie the beachcomber, who happens to be English and is gonna bail them out. Certainly language wise, they are gonna now be able to have an interpreter. He's been there forever because he's a beachcomber. And when you use that term, I thought, you can't be serious. You're using this term. And sure enough, that was what they were called. Beachcombers. Yeah.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Richard Henry Dana, famous book, maritime book, written by this maritime lawyer in the mid-1800s. He's the one that coined the term beachcomber. And they were all over the Pacific. How many there were, it's hard to determine. There were clearly hundreds, if not thousands over the two or three centuries of the great age of sail. And just think how different this story would be if old Charlie hadn't been there. Because all of a sudden they could communicate. He'd been there for almost 30 years and he married a Palauan woman. He knew Palauan, he knew English, so he was the perfect interpreter. And there are actually two other beachcombers that were in Koror, the other village. So there were three that were on Palau at this time that we know of.

[Mishke]

What's the village where Charlie is? Where the first one they're at they live at.

[Eric J. Dolan]

In Gar Shalom.

[Mishke]

Okay? That's where things are okay. Things are okay there. And that's where these islanders say, we're gonna work a deal with you fellas. We'll keep three here as sort of hostages, although, you know, they'll be treated all right. And you go back to the United States. We'll help you. Well, you got your whaling boat there, and we'll help you build another canoe of sorts. And you can put sails on these things and head out. You can wind your way back to the US Via a series of stops, the Spice Islands, and eventually getting to somewhere where you can get in a regular ship and head back to the States. And then when you get back to the States, you make sure to bring 200 muskets our way. And then you can come take these other three guys. And they're wheeling and dealing at a time when. How long is it gonna be before these. If these guns ever come, how long before they'll ever get there? But where they were gonna end up was on islands with far less friendly people and far more deprivation and hardship and horror and starvation and poor treatment. And, in fact, there is going to be murder in some cases and guys who are hardly having enough to eat. It's gonna be, you know, we're just gonna put you in a canoe and push you out in the water. You're almost dead anyway. That was a. The odyssey of it all. But these poor guys who have to stay as hostages ended up having the better gig. Yeah, my favorite guy. And the guy who ended up writing about this, he deals with an extraordinary amount of hardship and pain and suffering and mistreatment, and, I mean, I hope you do, too. I give him full credit for saving the life of one of the guys. I think without him, that guy's dead. So that's no small thing. And then when he gets back after years, he lives into the 20th century, dies at the age of 94. He's still being interviewed by newspaper guys in the 20th century, still has his wits about him. I mean, there was a man whose body was built to not die.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yes, he was tough.

[Mishke]

Holy smokes. He's the guy who says, you know, all in all, if I knew how it was going to play out, I think I would have rather have headed out with those 10 guys who disappeared and just probably drowned that night when we first crashed, because that's a lot to put yourself through.

[Eric J. Dolan]

I know he wrote that, but I can't imagine, given his full life after he came back, he Got married, he had kids. He went to Hawaii, went to Oregon. He was one of the first settlers in Oregon. He was a respected member of the community. He was a farmer, he cattle rancher. I can't imagine that he'd. Knowing all that that happened in his life, that he wouldn't have wanted to survive rather than die that first day. It was horrific. But he made it through.

[Mishke]

I think it's like this. I think it's like this. Have you ever been through something? I have, where you go through this horrible stretch and you come out the other side and you say, I could not do that again. If someone said, could you go back and do that again? It's the only way to have this life you get after. No, if you bring me back to square one, I'm gonna take the option of the drowning. I did it. I was able to do it because I didn't know what all I was gonna end up dealing with. He did have this sense that those guys who drown, who they all felt sorry for. In fact, there's this wonderful scene during that first period where they're with islanders who treat them well. One of the reasons they're treated so well is they lost 10 of their brethren. And there is actual empathy to the point where the women on the island want them to keep retelling the story of losing their dear compatriots, these comrades, their fellow sailors. Tell us again about how you lost them. Well, these 10 guys got on the boat and we never saw them again. And then later with you guys, we saw the boat empty on shore, and we realized they all drown. And the women are beating their chests and wailing and crying as though they want to cry for this death with these other guys, to mourn and grieve with them.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah, it was a fascinating scene. And one of the things interesting about this book is back then, almost all Westerners and including the United States and Great Britain, they just had an absolutely condescending attitude towards Pacific Islanders in general and a lot of other cultures in general. And they thought that they were superior. And they really viewed. When they first landed there, they viewed the Palauans as savages and barbarians. But I think one of the nice things to come out of the book, people, when they're together for six months, they got to know the Palauans, and their attitude towards them changed, and they had a much more favorable attitude. They still viewed their culture as. As being light years behind the west, which it was in terms of material possessions. But I just love the fact that Horace Holden talks About how these islanders, who, from the Americans perspective, had very little in material wealth. It wasn't a life to envy, but the islanders themselves were very happy and they had a rich and vibrant culture and they thought that they were blessed. And I just think that's a nice reflection on humanity and that there are lots of ways to be in this world and to be happy and to have a rich and vibrant culture. It's not just one way.

[Mishke]

Depending on where you are in this book, at times you. You think you're in paradise in some cases. I mean, it's this wondrous world, this, this incredible scene at one point where these guys are, I don't know, they have left one island trying to get to some other islands, trying to get away. There's a storm and they're freezing in the rain. And then to get warm, you can go into the ocean because the water is so wonder. It's bath water. It says, oh my God, they're in this wonderful tropical paradise. I mentioned earlier the black teeth. Why were the teeth black on these islanders?

[Eric J. Dolan]

It's called lacquering, or they also called it japanning, because I understand geisha girls actually at one point blackened their teeth. This was done when the Palauans were in their early 10, 11, early teens. And. And it was a process that took about a week. It's basically a dyeing process. I don't know the exact mix of the herbs and things that they used on the island, but it was very unpleasant. But it did stain your teeth black. And it is thought by modern writers who have written about this that it actually would have strengthened the teeth against decay. But whether or not it was done for physical reasons, somehow they learned that this would be better for our teeth. The Palawans viewed the blackened mouth and the teeth as a sign of beauty. It was just part of their culture.

[Mishke]

There's one guy. I have to clear this up. When Jackson sends a ship to get the last of them, he's nowhere to be found.

[Eric J. Dolan]

He was one of the three hostages that were taken when the Americans left on the canoe that the Engarshelangi's built for them in their whaleboat. They had to leave behind three hostages. This guy, Calvin Alden, was one of them. And he, in a similar way to the four of the whalemen who were on Toby, a ship came by not far from Ngarshalang, the village, and he was able to get on that ship. I think he used a canoe. It's not 100% clear, but he was picked up by a Passing ship. So he escaped and he made it back to the United States and he went whaling again. And he ultimately died on another whaling voyage.

[Mishke]

He went whaling again. There's the captain and 21 guys. Eight guys had never been to sea before. So first time to sea. It's a nightmare, a hell for years. Please tell me none of those eight guys came back to New Bedford and said, when's the next whaling vessel leaving?

[Eric J. Dolan]

I don't know what all of them did. But Alden, he had already been on a whaleship before the Mentor, so he wasn't a green hand. The only other one that I know that went whaling again, and this is very common, was Captain Barnard.

[Mishke]

Sure.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Now, there are hundreds of stories in the history of whaling in America of captains who either went on a trip that didn't catch many whales or had. Were attacked maybe when they were out, or had a shipwreck and came back and went back to the sea. That's their profession. That's the way they made money. That's the way they put food on the table. And many of them were away so often that they would come back and meet new family members they didn't even know about.

[Mishke]

And I want to say about the captain, some of these captains brought their wives with them and they had very nice quarters. The other guys, what are these ships, about 80ft long?

[Eric J. Dolan]

The Mentor was only about 84ft long, 21ft wide.

[Mishke]

Yeah. So the quarters were very hard for me to look at. And imagine four years out living in those quarters again, separate from the captain. And even then, you know, you're still talking four years at sea. Is it also true that after you harpooned them and the sperm whales headed out for miles and maybe spent a few hours with this thing taking you on a Nantucket sleigh ride, that when it was time to turn around and tow that thing back to the ship, about the best you could do was one mile an hour.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. Think of the mass. A large sperm whale could be 80 tons, and it's just dead in the water. And that was a problem because the Nantucket sleigh ride could take the whaleboat quite a ways from the mother ship. And there were instances in which a whale boat was taken so far away from the mother ship that they no longer could see it. And some people never made it back to the mother ship.

[Mishke]

So you're here with this dead whale. You say, well, we've harpooned the hell out of this thing and it's bleeding and we're in shark infested. Waters. So that was the other thing I thought of. You wanted to get back fairly quickly to that ship because the sharks were going to start coming.

[Eric J. Dolan]

And there were a couple of stories of people falling in and being bitten. But the truth is, if you fell in, you might first be crushed by the whale. That was more of a danger than being bitten by a shark. They were in a frenzy. They might bite you accidentally, but what they really wanted was the blubber.

[Mishke]

The very first time I met Tommy and Jimmy Leonard, I said, you guys don't seem like car dealers. And they said, we get that a lot. And they smiled and I realized they didn't wanna seem like car dealers. I realized they thought that was a compliment. I think if you say to someone, you seem like a car dealer, well, it's not a flattering thing to say. So I said to Tommy and Jimmy, you don't seem like car dealers. And what I truly meant was, there's something real about you guys. Solid. There's a soul there. You guys are so well rounded, so seemingly grounded and decent and present and you're enjoyable to be around. They had their approach when it came to selling cars and I loved it. I loved how they cared for their customers and how they thought of them as being part of the family and how multiple generations have gone there and how it all works out so beautifully. I hope you go to Fury Motors in Waconia, Stillwater, Forest lake or South St. Paul. Well, July's moving along. We're just about done. Last chance to get 358 bucks off at Minneapolis St. Paul plumbing, heating, air and electric. 358 bucks off heating and AC equipment from MSP. Celebrating 250 years of the United States and 108 years of MSP. They've taken those numbers, put them together, they came up with358.358 bucks off only in July if you contact MSP. You've been holding off on this AC that you've wanted worked on. You've been holding off on some furnace equipment. You've been holding off on projects associated with AC and heat. Don't hold off. Save that money and then take that 300. 358 bucks you save and spend it in August at the state fair. You talk about a good time. You take 358 bucks to the state fair. Can I get on a ride with you? Come on. You got extra money? Let me sit next to you on the tilt a whirl. You can sit on my lap. Tommy. What? I don't know if that's Safe. Go to callmsp.com I see him off the starboard bell.

[Commercial Announcer]

Here we go.

[Mishke]

This was a big story. This was in all the papers. This was big news in the world of adventure tales. This was right up there at the top. I'm intrigued by the guys. Just wanted to disappear. Didn't. Didn't really need to tell the story. Didn't want to tell their story. And I just wonder if with some guys it wasn't. Yeah. Let me tell you about ptsd, pal. The last thing I'm going to do is talk about this. You don't hear about that. But psychologically, I can imagine some guys were just never well again.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Could have been that the other guys might have been illiterate. You know, writing might have been the furthest thing from their mind, and some of them may not have been in good enough shape. One of the other guys that came back, he was rescued by the Vincennes, the naval ship.

[Mishke]

He.

[Eric J. Dolan]

According to his descendants, who are still around today, the family lore has it that when he came back from his time in Palau, his mind was a little bit addled. He probably wasn't in a position to write something.

[Mishke]

Couldn't you have argued that it would have made more sense for someone living on the Eastern seaboard to say, I'll be a cod fisherman? I mean, you don't. I'll probably make more money. You say some of these guys would come back in debt, some would come back and it would work out that they got a penny a day while they were gone. The captains would make a fair amount of money, and of course, the owners of the ship and the big companies behind this would make a lot. But given all I know now, I'm still thinking cod fishing. That sounds good.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Well, cod fishing was definitely a huge concern. My hometown, where I live now, Marblehead, was a huge cod fishing community, as was Gloucester and other communities on the east coast. Yes, cod was king in Massachusetts. But believe it or not, whaling on the eve of the American Revolution brought more revenue and into New England than cod fishing did. But I was asked this question just the other day. I gave a talk in Gloucester, and one of the fishermen there, actually in the audience, he said, why didn't Gloucester ever become a major whaling port? Which it didn't. We're just as close to the Grand Banks in the North Atlantic. You know, we could go out and get whales. And I think the reason was just as simple or difficult as the local fishermen in Gloucester had weaned themselves on cod Fishing and haddock. And that's what they were really good at and that's what they decided to stick with. But at one time or another in the 1800s, even though Nantucket, New Bedford, Sag Harbor, New London and San Francisco were really the biggest whaling ports, at one time or another, there were 60 cities and towns in the United States that sent out at least one whaling ship.

[Mishke]

The last thing I want to ask you about is this obscure beachcomber thing. I just have to go back to it one last time time because it's such a weird part of the book to get my head around. You have hundreds and hundreds of these sailors who, for whatever reason find themselves either they were thrown off a ship, fell off a ship, were visiting, doing some trading, decided to stay, got in trouble on a ship, were criminals, and decided to save themselves by leaping over and swimming. For whatever reason, they're there and deciding to stay. And again by the hundreds. And it is as foreign as can be from the world. They know there is nothing similar when compared to the world they grew up in. But something about it has them saying, this is where I'm going to live out my life and I'm going to fit in here and assimilate and eventually become part of this world. Did a single one of those guys ever write a book?

[Eric J. Dolan]

Articles or interviews for some of them, but that's a good question. I couldn't tell you if there were books. It was few and far between, but now I'm going to look for more. But I am aware of a number of them who were interviewed when they came back or were written about because Westerners came into contact with them.

[Mishke]

I think it would be so interesting to get their perspective on what it was that made it so they could stay there and live out their lives there. And don't. I read about one guy who has 11 kids, ends up fathering 11 kids. And again, if it were a different time when you could maybe at some point go back home again or get on a plane and fly home, or maybe grab the phone and call home, but you are checked out from every single thing you've ever known. And nothing about what these people do is similar to your life. And yet it wasn't three or four guys. It was a lot of guys who found that they could plug into this world. I sure would have loved, and I'm sure these sailors had better things to do, but I sure would have loved one of them to say, I'm going to be heading back to New Bedford here shortly. Could I sit down and just briefly interview you about what the heck you're doing here.

[Eric J. Dolan]

I think that if you did what you would find in many instances, and this is a common story back then, not as common today, but an awful lot of people who were on whale ships didn't come from the highest rungs of society. They had tough lives. Who knows? Some of these men may have had no family waiting for them back home. Others may have had family they hated. Others may have been running from the law. Others just didn't feel they had any prospects and didn't enjoy their life when they were back in the United States. So why go back? And you can't downplay this is true. A lot of these native cultures before they got ripped apart by the west with disease and alcohol, a lot of them seem to me, from reading from the outside, wonderful places. They seem to be very happy. They were definitely much more sexually permissive than the Victorian society.

[Mishke]

Found myself wondering about that, too. I found myself wondering how much of it was, there's a bunch of naked women around here and no one likes me. Back in New Bedford.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah, absolutely. It was common in a lot of these Pacific islands for women before they were married to have many partners and not use sex with the taboos that they did in the West. So it was just a totally different kind of environment.

[Mishke]

And wasn't there one leader, at least one. But one, I think you highlighted from one of these islands who did the reverse and became sort of a celebrity in the west for.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Oh, okay. I think you're talking about Libu.

[Mishke]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah, that's part of the British story. Mariners, when they left Core, the chief asked them to bring one of his sons, Libu, with them so he could learn about the West.

[Mishke]

Yeah.

[Eric J. Dolan]

And then come back to Palau and tell everybody he made it all the way to London. He was a huge sensation in London. There are a couple of books written about him, but unfortunately, he contracted smallpox and died.

[Mishke]

Oh, okay.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah.

[Mishke]

Well, it's all fascinating to me. The Wreck of the Mentor is the name of the book. A true story of Death, Despair and Deliverance in the Age of Sail. Eric J. Dolan, the author. Just an extraordinary, extraordinary story. We only scratch the surface. There's so much there, some of it difficult to read. I found myself celebrating the fact that seven of them made it home. I think you could have argued in the middle of the night on that May night when they were being bashed against the reef. And 11 went immediately that night. You could have argued. There was no reason to believe the remainder should have lasted another month. And seven of them make it back.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Yeah. It's an amazing story. Yeah. I don't know. There's something mystical almost about reading about another time that's different from your own because perhaps there's a little bit of romance attached to it. Even though wailing was not romantic.

[Mishke]

No.

[Eric J. Dolan]

And getting your shipwrecked is not romantic. But there's something about these shipwreck stories that just grab a lot of people.

[Mishke]

I mean, I have to say, the smells on the ship alone, the sanitary conditions or lack thereof. I don't know what was romantic about whaling. Was there something romantic about it?

[Eric J. Dolan]

No. And in Leviathan, I sort of make that point. But a lot of armchair travelers, even the 1800s, when Moby Dick came out. Romantic's a funny word, but there is some kind of. When people think about whaling, I don't think they often immediately think about the difficulty of it, the dangers of it, the smells of it, the monotony of it. They more often just think about these broader themes of traveling the world's ocean, going to different ports occasionally to stock up on items, going out and battling against a whale, attacking your demons like Ahab. I don't know that that romantic is a term. In the 1800s in particular, when you read a lot of the literature about whaling, they write about it in a way that is almost mythic making and romantic. And they use the term romantic, the romance of the ocean.

[Mishke]

And I wonder if the guys were viewed as quasi daredevils, as doing something larger than life. They weren't going out and getting an elk or a deer. You know what I'm saying? They were. They were throwing themselves at this biggest beast in the world. I mean, was there some sense, well, that guy, now there's a man, that guy goes after sperm whales or just another guy supporting his family best he could.

[Eric J. Dolan]

By the 1800s, during the Golden Age, it was probably more of the latter. But Certainly in the 1700s, whalemen, especially on Nantucket, were somewhat revered. And not just the captains. It was a honorable and honored way of life. But it really changed in the 1800s when it became more of almost a factory like situation. You had such a huge need for labor. I think people viewed them in a harsher light, especially because a lot of whalemen were taken from. And this is another term that's used at the time, the dregs of society. There were brothels, there were a lot of bars, there were a lot of fights. It was kind of a tough existence. So I don't think that they were held up quite the same way that whalemen of an earlier century were, but there's no doubt that your average landlubber viewed a whaleman as an almost alien being given what they went through.

[Mishke]

Well, I hope people listening get a hold of the Wreck of the Mentor and give out your website too, because you get a lot of books that look interesting and they're all there at your website. What is it?

[Eric J. Dolan]

Ericj dolan.come R I C J-A Y D O L I N.com and if you go there, you can see all the books I've written, but you can also read the introductions to every book that I've written so you can get a sense of whether you think it's a book you might want to read.

[Mishke]

Thank you so much for all your time.

[Eric J. Dolan]

Well, thank you for having me on. It's been a lot of fun. It's really appreciate it.