Generation X VS Z

Host: Sandhaug Productions
Episode #342: Odd Nansen & Thomas Buergenthal
Date: September 27, 2024

Episode Overview

This episode centers on a profound conversation between Andrew Franklin, publisher of Profile Books, and Thomas Buergenthal, Holocaust survivor and author of A Lucky Child. The discussion delves into Buergenthal's extraordinary experiences during the Holocaust, the complexities of human nature in times of atrocity, and how these experiences shaped his career in international law and human rights. The episode gives Generation X and Z listeners a bridge into historical memory, survival, and moral legacy, all relayed with honesty, reflection, and occasional humor.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Motivation to Write A Lucky Child

• Documenting Holocaust Testimony:
  Buergenthal emphasizes the duty of Holocaust survivors to bear witness for history and family. He initially planned the work as letters to his sons and grandchildren before realizing a broader, more lasting story must be told.

  "I always had the feeling I had to write this book so there would be just one more...left behind from a family that was basically extinguished in the camps." – Thomas Buergenthal (11:06)

2. Buergenthal’s Survivor Story

• A Childhood on the Run:
  Born in Slovakia to parents who fled Nazi Germany, Buergenthal and his family were repeatedly displaced. A harrowing moment: the day they were to escape to England, Germany invaded Poland.
• Survival and Reunion:
  Imprisoned in Auschwitz and Sachsenhausen, enduring a death march, and ultimately liberated by the Polish army, Buergenthal was reunited with his mother after over two years apart.

  "I survived the ghetto, the concentration camp of Auschwitz, Sachsenhausen, the death march from Auschwitz to Sachsenhausen...And then, believe it or not, after we were separated for more than two and a half years, I found my mother." – Thomas Buergenthal (12:00)

3. The Tragedy of Loss and Unfathomable Odds

• Family Tragedy:
  Buergenthal’s father was executed just days before the war ended.

  "My father was executed, apparently...about three days before the end of the war." – Thomas Buergenthal (13:36)

• ‘Luck’ as Survival:
  He attributes his survival not to cleverness or strength, but to random fortune and the help of others in unimaginably horrific circumstances.

  "I called the book A Lucky Child...I was in all this terrible hell and really was lucky...Certainly nothing I would take credit for in terms of intelligence or anything else." – Thomas Buergenthal (13:59)

4. The Role of Appearance and Language

• Survival Factors:
  His blonde hair, blue eyes, and native German fluency, at times, helped shield him from immediate suspicion or harm but were no guarantee of safety.

  "I spoke German the way their children spoke...he must have thought of his children...Some sort of human quality in the person came through." – Thomas Buergenthal (14:51)

5. The Complexity of Human Nature

• Moral Contradictions:
  Buergenthal reflects on moments when fellow inmates betrayed him, contrasted with times when even SS officers or German civilians showed kindness.

  "My own fellow inmates gave me away as I was trying to escape...In other cases, some of the inmates would help me, even though it meant that they would eat less. So it's human nature. But what it is in human nature that does it, I don't know." – Thomas Buergenthal (16:19)
  "In one instance, an SS man gave me a cup of coffee...Why did he do it? At the same time, there was a German woman going past one of our trains: 'It stinks again of Jews.' How do you explain all of this?" – Thomas Buergenthal (16:19-17:00)

6. The Drive Toward Justice and Human Rights

• Influence of Experience:
  Buergenthal discusses how, with time, he realized the importance of "giving back" through his career as a judge in international law and human rights.

  "Each of us who survived...really has an obligation to do something, to give something back, everybody in his own way. I thought I could do it by being in the human rights field or being an international [lawyer]..." – Thomas Buergenthal (18:07)

• No Burden of Survivor's Guilt, but a Sense of Responsibility:

  "I never had this sense of survivor syndrome...but I felt I did have an obligation to others as a result of that." – Thomas Buergenthal (18:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I don't wish [my life] on anybody, but something that had to be told.” (12:50)
• “When I wrote the book, I suddenly had so many questions and so few answers.” (17:10)
• “If I had been good in science, I probably would have become a doctor, but I wasn't good in that.” (18:55)
• “So there are lots of things those of us who survive can do to sort of pay back, express our gratitude for having made it.” (19:00)

Important Timestamps

• 10:25: Introduction of Thomas Buergenthal and A Lucky Child
• 11:06: Motivation for writing the memoir
• 12:00-12:50: Summary of Buergenthal’s journey and survival
• 13:36: Loss of Buergenthal's father
• 13:59: The role of luck in survival
• 14:51: Impact of physical appearance and language
• 16:19-17:20: Reflections on human nature in the Holocaust
• 18:07: Career in international law, motivation, and sense of obligation

Tone and Style

The episode maintains a respectful, reflective, and conversational tone, offering honest insights into unimaginable suffering while emphasizing themes of resilience, ethical responsibility, and the nuances of human nature. Buergenthal’s storytelling is humble, at times wry, and deeply moving, providing both generations X and Z with a window into the past and a challenge for moral action in the future.

For further reflection:
This episode is essential listening for those interested in history, ethics, law, and the lessons we can (and must) draw from the darkest chapters in human experience.