Communication Expert: The Exact Words That Stop Money Fights

Summary

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Podcast Summary: “Communication Expert: The Exact Words That Stop Money Fights”

Podcast: George Kamel (Ramsey Network)
Date: June 17, 2026
Host: George Kamel (with Dave Ramsey)
Guest: Jefferson Fisher (trial lawyer turned communication expert, NYT bestselling author "The Next Conversation")

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the crucial role communication plays in solving and preventing money-related conflicts, whether with spouses, family, friends, or at work. George Kamel and Dave Ramsey host guest Jefferson Fisher, who brings his expertise as a communication specialist to tackle real-life money conversations. Together, they roleplay scenarios and break down actionable speaking strategies, focusing on specific language and timing to nurture relationships and find positive outcomes, all wrapped in light-hearted banter and real talk.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cost of Poor Money Conversations

• Main insight: The most expensive conversations are not about the dollar amount, but the emotional and relational damage caused by poorly handled money talks.
  • “The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are going to cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop.” (Jefferson Fisher, 00:00)
• Timing is crucial—forcing a conversation when either party is not ready nearly always leads to escalation and hurt rather than resolution.
  • “The worst thing you can do is push a conversation that is sensitive ... when somebody isn't ready and when you're not ready.” (Jefferson Fisher, 00:19)

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2. Scenario Play: Getting Your Spouse On Board

• Challenge: One spouse is trying to get the other to see the need for budgeting or debt payoff, but only one is motivated.
• Strategy:
  • Avoid blame; approach as a team.
  • Start with agreement on shared goals (“What you care about is what I care about.”).
  • Ask for help and understanding: “I need your help coming up with a solution here.” (Jefferson Fisher, 05:14)
  • Use curiosity, not accusation: Invite your spouse to talk through their decision process.
    • “When you can get somebody else to narrate their thinking, it's extremely beneficial rather than you just casting and projecting why they did something.” (Jefferson Fisher, 05:56–07:16)
  • Solutions work best when they're co-created, not dictated.
• Key quote: “If I were to say, George, I need your help. I want to understand your thought process ... They’re going to start talking you out. And I'm gonna go, okay, I hear that.” (Jefferson Fisher, 07:19)

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3. The Art of Saying No (Without Guilt or Drama)

• Scenario: Saying no to expensive social events (e.g., birthday dinners) without damaging relationships or oversharing.
• Bad example: Overexplaining and making excuses leads to awkwardness or suspicion.
  • “I just got so much stuff going on ... my cat has this thing with her paw … I just really can't.” (Jefferson Fisher as bad example, 08:55)
• The 3-step “Graceful No”:
  1. Give the no: “I can't make it.”
  2. Express gratitude: “Thank you so much for inviting me.”
  3. Add kindness: “I'm sure it'll be a great time. Let me know how it goes.” (Jefferson Fisher, 11:00–11:43)
• Don’t be compelled to explain that the reason is money.
• If pressed, own the decision: “I made a promise to myself that ____.” (Jefferson Fisher, 12:04)
  • (“I’m watching my budget this week.”)

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4. Setting Boundaries: Family Expecting Financial Support

• Scenario: A parent expects regular financial support from their adult child.
• Approach:
  • Separate the act from the person. Turn “I can’t send you $500” into “The $500 monthly allowance is not something that can continue.” (Jefferson Fisher, 13:15)
  • Align on shared family values: Acknowledge their love and how your own family needs must come first, finding common ground. (14:00)
  • Give advanced notice and finality—not abruptly cutting them off but stating when the last payment will be and sticking to that boundary. (16:06)
    • “There has to be some finality to it and you have to ... stand firm in knowing that it's gonna be an emotional one.” (Jefferson Fisher, 16:16)
• Nuance: Be careful about offering “help to help themselves”—sometimes people prefer ongoing support to solutions, and that’s a trap for the giver. (15:35)

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5. Asking for a Raise (the Right Way)

• Key mistakes:
  • Bringing it up cold, without notice, or when your boss is in the middle of something.
  • Focusing on what others earn, or coming in emotionally.
  • Making implicit accusations (underpayment) or using ultimatums.
• Recommended method:
  • Learner mentality: Ask how others have grown, seek input on what it takes to move up.
    • “When you come into this conversation with, ‘I need your help ... what did you find the best way, the best levers to increase your salary?’ ... you’ve taken off that pressure of that defensiveness.” (Jefferson Fisher, 21:06)
  • Schedule a formal time to discuss, give notice.
  • Prepare with evidence of your value and a collaborative proposal.
  • Frame as a long-term conversation about growth and mutual goals, not an ultimatimatum.
    • “When you have that conversation … say something as simple as, I want to talk about my current company structure, my current rate structure, and this is a conversation I like to have over the next three weeks ...” (Jefferson Fisher, 24:06)

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6. Addressing Friends Making Bad Financial Decisions

• Scenario: A friend is about to make a disastrous move (e.g., draining their 401k for a dubious investment).
• Bad approach: Immediate criticism or telling them they’re wrong, which triggers defensiveness.
• Better approach:
  • Start with empathy and affirmation: “Look, George, I'm telling you this because I love you ... I hear that excitement that you have ... I’m happy that you're happy.” (Jefferson Fisher, 26:41)
  • Ask for permission to share: “Are you good with me sharing that?”
  • Frame it with care and concern for their future: “My fear for you is this. My care for you is this.” (Jefferson Fisher, 28:05)
  • Make the advice about your worry, not their intelligence.
• Memorable moment: George: “It was 60 seconds on TikTok from a goober being like, bro, I made 20 grand this month.” (26:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are gonna cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop.”
  — Jefferson Fisher (00:00)

• “Just the phrase ‘help me’ is extremely helpful when you say, ‘I need your help.’”
  — Jefferson Fisher (05:14)

• “Graceful no: 1. I can't make it. 2. Thank you for inviting me. 3. I know it'll be a great time.”
  — Jefferson Fisher (11:43)

• “The $500 monthly allowance is not something that can continue.”
  — Jefferson Fisher (13:15)

• “Timing is a huge aspect ... you need to set this up of an email or a conversation where you go, hey, next week I'd really like to set some time ...”
  — Jefferson Fisher (22:24)

• “My fear for you is this, my care for you is this ... here's some icebergs that I really would want you to be aware of.”
  — Jefferson Fisher (28:05)

• “Advice that's free, sometimes not that great. And there's a reason why it's free, because it didn't cost them anything.”
  — Jefferson Fisher (27:30)

• Humorous banter:
  “It was 60 seconds on TikTok from a goober being like, bro, I made 20 grand this month.” — George (26:02)
  “The dumbest thing I've ever heard. You and your brother in law are dimwits.” — George (28:59)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – The real cost of bad conversations
• 02:47–08:10 – Roleplay: Getting spouse on board with money goals
• 08:12–12:47 – Saying no to friends’ expensive invitations
• 12:47–17:21 – Boundaries with parents expecting money
• 18:40–24:54 – Approaching your boss for a raise
• 24:54–29:05 – Helping friends avoid financial mistakes (without blowing up the friendship)

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Episode Tone & Style

• Conversational, Direct, and Practical: Real-world examples with clear, actionable strategies.
• Humor & Light Sarcasm: Pop culture references, playful ribbing—particularly between George and Jefferson, keeping it engaging and down-to-earth.
• Empowering, Respectful: Focused on preserving relationships by showing empathy and understanding in tough money conversations.

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Final Thoughts

The episode emphasizes that the exact words you use—and especially how and when you say them—can make all the difference. From stopping money fights before they start to gracefully declining social invitations or setting boundaries with loved ones, the frameworks provided give listeners tools to build stronger, less stressful relational dynamics around money.

Find Jefferson Fisher at jeffersonfisher.com and his bestselling book, “The Next Conversation: How to Argue Less and Talk More.”

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Transcript

[Jefferson Fisher]

The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are going to cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop. One is the timing of the conversation. So whenever you are trying to push that conversation happening right then, all you're doing is ensuring that it's going to go south because you haven't thought about it, you're reacting emotionally. The worst thing you can do is push a conversation that is sensitive. Like money, when somebody isn't ready and when you're not ready. So if I were to put this in a nutshell for people. How do you say no to this kind of invite? Give them the no. First, I can't make it, see as that I can't make it. Second is saying thank you, so add your gratitude. And at three, you just tack on a little bit of.

[Dave Ramsey]

Most people are broke because they can't

[George]

say two letters, N O.

[Dave Ramsey]

And nobody knows that better than my esteemed guest today, Jefferson Fisher. He's a trial lawyer turned communication expert and New York Times best selling author of the Next Conversation. And he's built a following of more than 10 million people. And it all started from the front seat of his car. Just a lawyer, a windshield, and better advice than Most therapists charge $100 an hour for.

[George]

But before we get to it, I'd

[Dave Ramsey]

like to thank my star witness, DeleteMe, for sponsoring this channel.

[George]

No further questions, you, Honor. I object.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's contempt of court.

[George]

Let's get to it. You are the expert when it comes to a healthy approach to arguments and persuasion with the heart to create better relationships, better outcomes. And we know that talking about finances can be awkward at best and a relationship destroyer at worst.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely.

[George]

I mean, a money fight which happens verbally can destroy marriage. It can lead to a divorce if you don't get a hang of this and communicate well, no doubt it has

[Jefferson Fisher]

a very, very high cost. Some of the hardest conversations are money conversations.

[George]

So the most expensive conversations are the ones that end poorly.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are gonna cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop. And usually it's like racking up a bill at a dinner and not looking at the menu. Like at the end of it, the bill comes due and sometimes you gotta face it.

[George]

Yeah, it's how to deal with conflict, really.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. It outpaces the stability of the marriage.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, most of the calls that I

[George]

take on the Ramsey show are somewhat about money, but right underneath the surface, it's all about communication, relationships, an argument, a conflict and so I thought it'd be fun to role play these conversations with you today. Number one, for entertainment. Number two, I thought it could be helpful for my audience. And number three, I've always wanted to be an actor.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think we can knock out all three.

[George]

Three great reasons.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There we go.

[George]

If I get cast from this, you know, something great happened.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You need to give me credit for what I'm gonna say.

[George]

So first scenario is getting your spouse on board. So when we talk to people on the Ramsey show, they go, hey, I want to get out of debt. Trust me, I want nothing more. My spouse doesn't give a rip.

[Dave Ramsey]

How do I get them on board?

[George]

So I'm gonna be the spender, you're the saver. You ready?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I am ready.

[George]

Maybe I just. Another Amazon box showed up as you walked in.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[George]

Hey, would you mind bringing that package in your way in, hon?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Is this another one of these? When are you going to stop all the Amazon?

[George]

Okay, you know what? This is for the family. Everything I do is for this family. You know what that is? That's baby food. Oh, that's. You don't know the mental load I have.

[Jefferson Fisher]

First off, have these moments where you see the other Amazon package come in and probably already things are going on chaotic in the house. Cause if it's baby food, you got kids and they're probably not taking a nap and it's probably going crazy.

[George]

You're thinking about the debt payments that are about to debit out of the account and cause us to overdraft.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

[George]

And I'm just in survival mode, trying to go la la la la la in denial. So kids are down a little more calm now.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[George]

You sit down on the couch. How do you approach this in a way that doesn't cause me to shut down or get defensive is to make

[Jefferson Fisher]

it a team mentality thing to say. What you care about is what I care about. And here I agree. We need the baby food. Yes, absolutely. I want to take care of this family just like you do. And I know that's our goal. Like we have to. You're saying things that are going to bring this rather than me versus you and we're negotiating over the Amazon or the baby food or whatever's been purchased. If it's the kids need flip flops for the pool or whatever it is. There has to be this collectiveness between the two of you of. I know that the health of our kids is important to me and you both. You're finding things that both of you can agree on common ground. Exactly. And so once you kind of get that nod from them of, yeah, this is how we want to handle this, or this is a goal that we can both agree on, then this is where you present the problem of we cannot continue to purchase this brand at this price for this amount of times. So maybe we. I agree this is going to taste better for them. What if we do and try to come up with some other solution? So just the phrase help me is extremely helpful when you say, I need your help.

[George]

Some humility there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, there's a matter of I'm not trying to condemn you, I'm not trying to prosecute you. I'm saying, hey, I need your help coming up with a solution here. So, like, there has to be give and take. You're not trying to say you can't spend any money on the essentials of our family. I'm also. No, you're not trying to say you're wanting to drive us into debt and not have a penny to spend. And so there has to be a conversation of what's the balance there.

[George]

Yeah. So that they're not the blocker in the way. We just don't have a clear vision and goal that we're looking in the same direction at. Instead, we're just looking at each other.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. And I think it's also extremely helpful. So we talked about one, the timing of the conversation. Next, we talk about when you can say, hey, I need your help. We're both aligned on this particular goal and you're not getting them defensive. The three, I'd say you're trying to come up with a solution. And so often you can really get a solution by asking them when you think they need X amount of baby food or you see it's on sale or you see what it like, I want to know what's your thought process? So when you can get somebody else to narrate their thinking, it's extremely beneficial rather than you just casting and projecting why they did something. So rather than going, well, you spent it because you just saw it was there and that's the first thing that you bought. Yeah. You thought it was this and you thought it was that and rarely do they agree with it. You know, if I were to say, well, yeah, you bought it because you thought it looked good, you're naturally going to go, no, it wasn't that. It was because we need this. It's a good product. Exactly. Yeah, you got it, George. So rather than assuming the worst, you say, I Need you to kind of talk out your thought process there. So what is your brain when you see this? What's your thoughts telling you? And what you're going to learn is a lot of times those fears are also shared. In some sense, they're going to overlap.

[George]

They just respond in different ways to the stress and the fear.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. But what you're able to do is talk in terms of your. What your brain tells you. And when you do that, nobody tends to get defensive. So if I were to say, george, I need your help. I want to understand your thought process when you see that the kids need X, Y and Z. Like, what's the first thing that comes to your mind and what you process? And they gonna start talking you out. And I'm gonna go, okay, I hear that. You see, I'm saying. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I go, I hear that. What my brain tells me, what my instinct is to think about the fear of, how. How is this going to affect that? Because if we're spending money on the baby food, we're not gonna have money for the X, Y, and Z. And so there's always the.

[George]

And then you come up with a solution together.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[George]

Versus you yelling it. That's good.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's also key. Not to yell it.

[George]

Next scenario saying no. Now, as a people pleaser, recovering people pleaser, myself, this is really hard for me. So you're gonna help me out here. I'm your friend. I love this scenario where you're my friend. This is great. It's my birthday. I just invited you. We're going to a nice dinner downtown with some guys. The kind of place where you might want to see the menu before you decide if you can afford to eat there. You're on a tight budget. Maybe you're trying to pay off some debt. And you need to say no to this invite. So I'm going to go. Jefferson, dude, I'm having my birthday Thursday night. Bob's Steakhouse, downtown Nashville would mean the world to me if you would come.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And we know, and we already know. Bob's is like the most expensive.

[George]

It's a nice steakhouse.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It does. Bob's does sound like a really nice steakhouse.

[George]

It's inside of the Omni, if that tells you anything.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay, that's even ritzy. That's how you already. Well, that's kind of crossing brands, but yeah, I do think that's. So here's what the bad way to go about it. All right, here's how I Would not recommend. Oh, man, geez, George, that sounds awesome. I'd love to. Really, I would, but, you know, I just. I just got so much stuff going on. You know, I have, I have some plants that I need to water and I got. You know, my cat has this thing with her paw and she's. She's really nervous about it. You know, I just really can't. I just really can't leave it. And I continue to give you explanation on explanation.

[George]

Sounds like excuses.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. To where George would say, hey, you know what? Why don't you just go ahead and just tell me no. You know, next time you can just say no. Right. And now I've offended you by giving you all these excuses. Right. So that's the bad version, the second version, the better version of how to handle that I just got the invite from George and I would say, man, I'd love to. Something I need to make sure that I do is I made a promise to myself that I'm going to be watching my budget. I can't make it. I know it's going to be an awesome time and I really appreciate you inviting me. So if I were to put this in a nutshell for people. How do you say no to this kind of invite?

[George]

Whether it could be a bachelorette party, it could be anything that causes you to go. This is gonna cost me some money that I don't have right now, even though I'm sure it would be a great time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Let's take a step back. One is, you know, internally, it's because of money. It also could be because you just really don't wanna go. But if we're assuming that it's money, that doesn't mean you have to share that it's about money. Because. Because that makes people. Some people don't share that, that you're trying to save, or you don't have as much money as somebody else. And then it becomes a comparison game. So if you just need to say no instead of the I love to, but I can't and that but word just takes. It deletes anything that comes before it. So that I love to just.

[George]

I don't think you'd love to now. Exactly. If you wanted to, you would.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. That's like, I love you, but you're kind of crazy. So one we have the version of I'd love to come, but I can't. That's a no go. I'd say that's a thumbs down. The better version is just kind of three part of give them the no, First, I can't make it as easy as that. I can't make it. Not on the cards for me. That's what I like. I like saying not on the cards. Second is saying, thank you. So add your gratitude. Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate you thinking of me. It's gratitude for the invitation. And three, you just tack on a little bit of kindness. That's where it's. I'm sure it's going to be a great time. Let me know how it goes. I'm sure you're going to knock it out of the park, whatever that is. So you really don't have to mention money at all. It can be in the back of your mind if you know why. But I will say if you edit

[George]

it, depending on the relationship.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And I do say if you feel like you do need to say why. If somebody goes, why? Why not? One, you could just say, I can't make it sorry, and not have any explanation. But if you feel like you need to with this individual, I like using I've made a promise to myself that blank.

[George]

Then it's about you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Then it's about me. So let's say I'm saying no to that networking event. That's it. That goes from six to eight. I made a promise to myself, I'm going to be home to put the kids in bed. I've made a promise to myself I'm not gonna be drinking alcohol this month. I've made a promise to myself I'm gonna be taken care of X, Y, and Z.

[George]

Now, you're a man of commitment and integrity. How can I be masterful?

[Dave Ramsey]

That's the hope.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, that's the hope.

[George]

Now I'm jealous.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And now you feel bad. No, it's the same way of, like, I've made a promise to myself that I'm gonna be watching my budget this week, gonna be sticking to my budget, because the other person does not want to be responsible for you breaking your promise. They like it when people want to keep their promise. And then it especially helps if it's true and genuine.

[George]

All right, next one's a classic Ramsey show call. In this situation, I'm sending money to. You're sending money to meet your mother every month. And I have not done a good job setting myself up financially. And I feel maybe a little bit entitled that my son, who I've sacrificed for, should help support me in my old age. How do you respond to that? When I go, hey, son, I'm needing that 500 bucks again this month, first

[Jefferson Fisher]

and foremost, of separating out the act from your mother. So the act of giving money instead of mom, I can't send you 500 bucks anymore. Instead, I'm going to make it more objective. So instead of hear the difference, rather than me saying, mom, I can't give you $500 anymore, switch that to saying, mom, the $500 monthly allowance is not something that can continue. You say how I've now made it objective in third person.

[George]

Because even if you could do it, because then it assumes, well, I can't do it, well, now it's like, well, can you? You just don't want to. Because I don't want to is even worse. And so framing it as, hey, this situation can't continue, right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Instead of me sending you, I have an action here. I'm now saying, the monthly payment, the monthly allowance, whatever that is, I've separated it out from what I'm doing, so let's put it there. Especially when it comes to family members, there's this element of priority. I'm needing to make the decision of my family taking priority here. And I know you understand that I'm already. I'm kind of in some way, you are projecting. But you know that if I were to start the conversation with mom, I know that you love my family and you want me to take care of my family more than anything in the world, and that my family should be important to me more than anything. And because that's where my priority is, I cannot continue to keep the 500 monthly whatever. So you could take it that direction. But saying what the priority is and knowing that they agree with it, that's the common ground. That's the common ground.

[George]

We found that when we give people advice on this, it's usually, hey, set a timeline, almost like the conversation. Give them a heads up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. You can't just have it like, after.

[George]

At this point, this will be cut off. And then we even add on, like, I still want to support you, but in a different way. I want to make sure that you are set up to help take care of yourself, give you the resources you need so that you don't have to be reliant on anyone else. You kind of feel that independence. Is there a way to frame that up?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Well, I want to first say that this idea of, I also want to help you kind of support yourself can be kind of like quicksand. Because some people, I would prefer to play the victim than ever do anything to climb up the ladder that you put in the hole. Like, you know what I mean?

[George]

I wanted bank of Jefferson. I'm not looking for homework.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. Whoa, easy. No, I'm not looking for me. I have to go after Jesus.

[George]

Because you can't be like mom, you need to get a job. Yeah, that's a harder conversation. Right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, I do agree with giving them a heads up of the next month's payment needs to be is going to be the last one.

[George]

Some finality to it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There has to be some finality to it and you have to almost. I know it's gonna, it's way easier said than done. But you have to be able to stand firm in knowing that it's gonna be an emotional one. But if you know that you're making it for the right decisions for your family, then what's the overriding, what's the overriding goal there? So that's where my mind goes of. Yeah, there has to be some finality to it. There has to be a heads up. It's going to help when you align what your priorities are because most likely the priority, you can't have one multiple priorities. You can have one. I mean there is a hierarchy of what comes first in your life. If you put your family above God or God above family or how your career is and where money takes, takes it in your life. There has to be some ranking of priority. And that doesn't make you wrong or hurtful. It means you're doing the best you can.

[George]

While we're talking a lot of great

[Dave Ramsey]

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[George]

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[Dave Ramsey]

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[George]

All right, next one's asking for a raise. I am your boss.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Okay.

[George]

Love this scenario. How do you approach me for this raise?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, what I don't do is sit down for the very first time, catching you cold and saying, hey, I'm working. Yeah, you're working.

[George]

What's up, Jefferson? Hey.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got five minutes?

[George]

I'm in the middle of something, but, yeah, what do you need?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Okay, so listen, you remember the other day when I kind of. We were kind of talking about, like, business, like, how much, you know, how the business works and stuff? Like, so basically what I'm really looking for is if we can, like, talk about how much money I'm making, you know, or maybe not. We don't have to at this time, but, like, I think maybe I could be making more possibly than I am now.

[George]

You don't think I pay you enough?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, you might. You could, but I just know, like,

[George]

so very awkward energy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Super awkward energy coming through. I'm not giving you the headline. I'm now kind of talking around it.

[George]

Beating around the bush.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[George]

And a little bit assumptive of, like, well, you're underpaying me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. Because me, like, dragging the words out is going to make you frustrated because you got things to do and the first thing you think of is, what's your point? What do you need?

[George]

Don't waste my time.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yep, absolutely. And anytime you start talking immediately out of the gate about, hey, I want a raise, the first thing any business owner or superior is going to know, well, there's two things. One, is it within their authority to do so? Are they the ultimate decision maker?

[George]

I might need to go to my leader to talk about it. Or a comp committee.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Or two, their mind's immediately going to go to, can I afford it? What's. If I increase your salary by 1 to $2,000 or $10,000, whatever it is, what's the effect on the bottom line? How is that going to impact? And now if I'm paying You more than what I'm paying somebody else who's been here longer. And now there's. Is there going to be some type of inner office issues or whatever else?

[George]

Or it's, well, I find out my coworker is making more than me and I've been here longer and we have the same title. Right now I'm frustrated and coming in emotionally.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And now you sound like you're complaining. Right. So what I would recommend, and every business is different like we talked about, and I know what you do so well on all of your shows, is to be able to equip people with this kind of information on how you're gonna ask for a raise. Where my mind goes to is, number one, you take a learner mentality rather than coming in of, hey, so I just learned that George down the hall, he's like, this sounds crazy, but he said he's making this. And I've been here longer. But like, you know, what's up with that? Instead of that, you come into this conversation with, I need your help. Like when you were in my shoes, what did you find the best way, the best levers to increase your salary? If you knew you wanted to be here long term, how's the best way you found to structure your career here? And the way you moved up, what's the best way that you've found to kind of ask for X, Y and Z? And most likely the superior. Now you've taken off that pressure of that defensiveness, that scarcity mentality.

[George]

Well, you're not asking for a raise now you're asking how to grow. And now they're in a mentor advice position, which is a great position for a leader to be.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Now if you go, okay, Jefferson, that sounds cool, but I need something a little bit more aggressive then I would say time, timing is a huge aspect of it. You can't do just the. You got five minutes. You need to set this up of an email or a conversation where you go, hey, next week I'd really like to set some time where we can kind of look at my compensation structure and take about 30 minutes or so. And they should be able to agree with that. But now you're giving them a heads up so it's not coming out of left field. And then you come with resources or you come with actual things you want to.

[George]

An idea for a growth plan, something like that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Because if you want to make sure that you are not bleeding out the business. Right. You don't want to. You're in favor of the ship going in the right direction because you want it to survive too. At the same time, you're saying, hey, I also want to feel like I'm intrinsically motivated and have the ability to do that. So then what I would encourage is when you have that conversation and you sit down, it's not a, hey, I need to know right now, am I getting a raise or I need to give a raise? They can't make that decision. That's the worst. If you give an ultimatum, be ready

[George]

to pack up your bag.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[George]

Sounds like we can't pay you enough. The next job can.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[George]

See ya.

[Jefferson Fisher]

See ya later. The ultimatum is, and what's worse is if you're somebody critical and you know you're critical, you're then twisting their arm. Right now you're being almost cruel in a way because you know you have leverage and they don't want to lose you and their business can't really take that. And you know that. So you're kind of taking advantage of that.

[George]

Well, it hurts your personal brand long term and your ability to grow there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. And now they're going to actually resent you. And that's the worst move you can make when you're trying to ask for a raise. So instead, when you have that conversation, say something as simple as, I want to talk about my current company structure, my current rate structure, and this is a conversation I like to have over the next three weeks of what are ways that we can look at or what goals need to be achieved so that we are working in tandem towards something of, okay, if I need to hit a certain salary, what do I need to do? This is what I want to make. What do I need to do?

[George]

What must be true. That's a more interesting conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. So, but you hear how by saying, I want to add several weeks to this, I've now eliminated that pressure valve in the conversation.

[George]

All right, last one. Friends making bad financial decisions or family, We've all been there. You want to help someone avoid a big mistake that's going to hurt them. And I'm your close friend. I just told you I'm pulling my entire 401k out early withdrawal to invest in my brother in law's vending machine business.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So version one, the bad version is me coming and saying, look, dude, George, this is the worst mistake you could possibly make. You're going to tank your savings and ruin your life potentially. If I say, you can't do this, George, you can't do that, what's the first thing you Think of.

[George]

Well, now I'm defensive.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[George]

And you're going, well, you don't believe in me.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[George]

Well, you think I'm an idiot.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. If I tell you you can't, the first thing you say is, yes, I can. Yeah. What, you don't believe me? In my intelligence and my incredible money

[George]

skills, one gives you the right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[George]

Who do you think you are?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Exactly. Do you see this? I just, you know, I read a book, and it taught me everything. And this is Vending Machine 101.

[George]

Nobody read a book and then started a vending machine business.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[George]

It was 60 seconds on TikTok from a goober being like, bro, I'm counting all my change. I made 20 grand this month.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Passiveincome. Yeah.

[George]

Hashtag getmycourse.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So the better way of doing that is I would use that same framing we said a minute ago. Look, George, I'm telling you this because I love you, dude. I hear that excitement that you have about the vending machine, and you've been talking about it a lot, and, man, I hear all that, and I'm happy that you're happy. I also, because I love you, I have something that I want to tell you that I've learned. And are you good with me sharing that?

[George]

First and foremost, asking permission.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Asking permission.

[George]

Because they didn't ask for your advice, but you can ask for permission to give unsolicited advice, and then they get to decide if they take it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. And it's okay to say, can I share with you something that I've learned? Or, like, not even the word advice is sometimes very prickly to people.

[George]

Well, that connects a hierarchy of I'm smarter than you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it.

[George]

I have more wisdom than you have.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes. Which in some cases, you may or may not, you know, and so it's like, can I offer you some free advice? Like, nobody goes, yeah, please. They're like, no, I'll pass on that. Because usually what you've learned has to cost you something. Advice that's free, sometimes not that great. And there's a reason why it's free, because it didn't cost them anything.

[George]

That's how people feel about the Ramsey show. When they call me for, they're like,

[Jefferson Fisher]

oh, is there anybody else?

[George]

Is there? And Dave's the first to say, hey, the show is free, so you get what you pay for.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, well, that's fair.

[George]

It's worth every cent.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So I would say, first off is, you're asking permission. Do you mind if I Share something that I've learned or can I share with you something that's really on my heart about this? That I honestly, as a friend, I'm not gonna feel good. I'm not settled.

[George]

Like, I'm not gonna sleep well at night unless I tell you this. Tell you this makes it about you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[George]

Loving a friend.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. And it could be as simple as, look, even if you can totally disregard this, I need to say this for my own conscience. And they're gonna be like, okay, go ahead and share it. And that's where you get to share your heart in this. And you talk in terms of what my fear is instead of, look, you're going about this all wrong. They're lying to you. This is stupid. You're gonna get screwed. You're gonna ruin it. You're go, you're going to fail. Instead of all that, it's my fear for you. Is this my care for you? Is this what I want to see is your success? And because I care about your success and the benefit of your future, this is where my mind is. Here's some icebergs that I really would want you to be aware of. So that's a much better approach rather than the dude, what are you dimming?

[George]

That's so that's the stupidest idea I've ever had.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[George]

You and your brother in law are dimwits.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[George]

That's where we differ. I might just go in for the dimwit line. I think that's a good line.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It could be.

[George]

Well, this was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. I feel like I'm gonna approach conversations differently. Even as I host the Ramsey show this afternoon with Dave, I'm gonna be thinking about how to be more winsome, how to be more persuasive, how to not get someone too defensive or to shut down. And it's very nuanced and it's hard to do. And I think it's a skill that takes a lifetime of mastery and you've achieved it somehow at your young age. So thank you for that. I want everyone to check out your book and where they can find you. Will you let us know?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Don't make it hard. It's jeffersonfisher.com and my book was a New York Times bestseller. The Next Conversation, how to Argue Less and Talk More.

[George]

And of course, your YouTube channel, which already surpassed a million subscribers. Congratulations.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you very much.

[George]

You beat me to it somehow. Really, with your good looks and charm and Great advice. I should try all of those.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, with your acting skills, I know it's going to be in no time, man.

[George]

I'm not meant for YouTube.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm made for the big screen, baby.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's true. You are. That's true. Really.

[George]

Well, thanks, man. Appreciate it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, brother. All the best, man.

[Dave Ramsey]

Huge thanks to Jefferson for joining us today.

[George]

Easily one of my favorite conversations with a lawyer. To be fair, the bar was low.

[Dave Ramsey]

If today's episode hit home, you're gonna

[George]

want to watch this next one where

[Dave Ramsey]

Dr. John Deloney breaks down the real connection between money and anxiety. No prescription required, no copay. Just click here or use the link in the description. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.