Loading summary
Jefferson Fisher
The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are going to cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop. One is the timing of the conversation. So whenever you are trying to push that conversation happening right then, all you're doing is ensuring that it's going to go south because you haven't thought about it, you're reacting emotionally. The worst thing you can do is push a conversation that is sensitive. Like money, when somebody isn't ready and when you're not ready. So if I were to put this in a nutshell for people. How do you say no to this kind of invite? Give them the no. First, I can't make it, see as that I can't make it. Second is saying thank you, so add your gratitude. And at three, you just tack on a little bit of.
Dave Ramsey
Most people are broke because they can't
George
say two letters, N O.
Dave Ramsey
And nobody knows that better than my esteemed guest today, Jefferson Fisher. He's a trial lawyer turned communication expert and New York Times best selling author of the Next Conversation. And he's built a following of more than 10 million people. And it all started from the front seat of his car. Just a lawyer, a windshield, and better advice than Most therapists charge $100 an hour for.
George
But before we get to it, I'd
Dave Ramsey
like to thank my star witness, DeleteMe, for sponsoring this channel.
George
No further questions, you, Honor. I object.
Dave Ramsey
That's contempt of court.
George
Let's get to it. You are the expert when it comes to a healthy approach to arguments and persuasion with the heart to create better relationships, better outcomes. And we know that talking about finances can be awkward at best and a relationship destroyer at worst.
Jefferson Fisher
Absolutely.
George
I mean, a money fight which happens verbally can destroy marriage. It can lead to a divorce if you don't get a hang of this and communicate well, no doubt it has
Jefferson Fisher
a very, very high cost. Some of the hardest conversations are money conversations.
George
So the most expensive conversations are the ones that end poorly.
Jefferson Fisher
The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are gonna cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop. And usually it's like racking up a bill at a dinner and not looking at the menu. Like at the end of it, the bill comes due and sometimes you gotta face it.
George
Yeah, it's how to deal with conflict, really.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. It outpaces the stability of the marriage.
Dave Ramsey
Well, most of the calls that I
George
take on the Ramsey show are somewhat about money, but right underneath the surface, it's all about communication, relationships, an argument, a conflict and so I thought it'd be fun to role play these conversations with you today. Number one, for entertainment. Number two, I thought it could be helpful for my audience. And number three, I've always wanted to be an actor.
Jefferson Fisher
I think we can knock out all three.
George
Three great reasons.
Jefferson Fisher
There we go.
George
If I get cast from this, you know, something great happened.
Jefferson Fisher
You need to give me credit for what I'm gonna say.
George
So first scenario is getting your spouse on board. So when we talk to people on the Ramsey show, they go, hey, I want to get out of debt. Trust me, I want nothing more. My spouse doesn't give a rip.
Dave Ramsey
How do I get them on board?
George
So I'm gonna be the spender, you're the saver. You ready?
Jefferson Fisher
I am ready.
George
Maybe I just. Another Amazon box showed up as you walked in.
Jefferson Fisher
Okay.
George
Hey, would you mind bringing that package in your way in, hon?
Jefferson Fisher
Is this another one of these? When are you going to stop all the Amazon?
George
Okay, you know what? This is for the family. Everything I do is for this family. You know what that is? That's baby food. Oh, that's. You don't know the mental load I have.
Jefferson Fisher
First off, have these moments where you see the other Amazon package come in and probably already things are going on chaotic in the house. Cause if it's baby food, you got kids and they're probably not taking a nap and it's probably going crazy.
George
You're thinking about the debt payments that are about to debit out of the account and cause us to overdraft.
Jefferson Fisher
That's exactly what I'm saying.
George
And I'm just in survival mode, trying to go la la la la la in denial. So kids are down a little more calm now.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah.
George
You sit down on the couch. How do you approach this in a way that doesn't cause me to shut down or get defensive is to make
Jefferson Fisher
it a team mentality thing to say. What you care about is what I care about. And here I agree. We need the baby food. Yes, absolutely. I want to take care of this family just like you do. And I know that's our goal. Like we have to. You're saying things that are going to bring this rather than me versus you and we're negotiating over the Amazon or the baby food or whatever's been purchased. If it's the kids need flip flops for the pool or whatever it is. There has to be this collectiveness between the two of you of. I know that the health of our kids is important to me and you both. You're finding things that both of you can agree on common ground. Exactly. And so once you kind of get that nod from them of, yeah, this is how we want to handle this, or this is a goal that we can both agree on, then this is where you present the problem of we cannot continue to purchase this brand at this price for this amount of times. So maybe we. I agree this is going to taste better for them. What if we do and try to come up with some other solution? So just the phrase help me is extremely helpful when you say, I need your help.
George
Some humility there.
Jefferson Fisher
Well, there's a matter of I'm not trying to condemn you, I'm not trying to prosecute you. I'm saying, hey, I need your help coming up with a solution here. So, like, there has to be give and take. You're not trying to say you can't spend any money on the essentials of our family. I'm also. No, you're not trying to say you're wanting to drive us into debt and not have a penny to spend. And so there has to be a conversation of what's the balance there.
George
Yeah. So that they're not the blocker in the way. We just don't have a clear vision and goal that we're looking in the same direction at. Instead, we're just looking at each other.
Jefferson Fisher
Yes. And I think it's also extremely helpful. So we talked about one, the timing of the conversation. Next, we talk about when you can say, hey, I need your help. We're both aligned on this particular goal and you're not getting them defensive. The three, I'd say you're trying to come up with a solution. And so often you can really get a solution by asking them when you think they need X amount of baby food or you see it's on sale or you see what it like, I want to know what's your thought process? So when you can get somebody else to narrate their thinking, it's extremely beneficial rather than you just casting and projecting why they did something. So rather than going, well, you spent it because you just saw it was there and that's the first thing that you bought. Yeah. You thought it was this and you thought it was that and rarely do they agree with it. You know, if I were to say, well, yeah, you bought it because you thought it looked good, you're naturally going to go, no, it wasn't that. It was because we need this. It's a good product. Exactly. Yeah, you got it, George. So rather than assuming the worst, you say, I Need you to kind of talk out your thought process there. So what is your brain when you see this? What's your thoughts telling you? And what you're going to learn is a lot of times those fears are also shared. In some sense, they're going to overlap.
George
They just respond in different ways to the stress and the fear.
Jefferson Fisher
Right. But what you're able to do is talk in terms of your. What your brain tells you. And when you do that, nobody tends to get defensive. So if I were to say, george, I need your help. I want to understand your thought process when you see that the kids need X, Y and Z. Like, what's the first thing that comes to your mind and what you process? And they gonna start talking you out. And I'm gonna go, okay, I hear that. You see, I'm saying. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I go, I hear that. What my brain tells me, what my instinct is to think about the fear of, how. How is this going to affect that? Because if we're spending money on the baby food, we're not gonna have money for the X, Y, and Z. And so there's always the.
George
And then you come up with a solution together.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly.
George
Versus you yelling it. That's good.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, that's also key. Not to yell it.
George
Next scenario saying no. Now, as a people pleaser, recovering people pleaser, myself, this is really hard for me. So you're gonna help me out here. I'm your friend. I love this scenario where you're my friend. This is great. It's my birthday. I just invited you. We're going to a nice dinner downtown with some guys. The kind of place where you might want to see the menu before you decide if you can afford to eat there. You're on a tight budget. Maybe you're trying to pay off some debt. And you need to say no to this invite. So I'm going to go. Jefferson, dude, I'm having my birthday Thursday night. Bob's Steakhouse, downtown Nashville would mean the world to me if you would come.
Jefferson Fisher
And we know, and we already know. Bob's is like the most expensive.
George
It's a nice steakhouse.
Jefferson Fisher
It does. Bob's does sound like a really nice steakhouse.
George
It's inside of the Omni, if that tells you anything.
Jefferson Fisher
Okay, that's even ritzy. That's how you already. Well, that's kind of crossing brands, but yeah, I do think that's. So here's what the bad way to go about it. All right, here's how I Would not recommend. Oh, man, geez, George, that sounds awesome. I'd love to. Really, I would, but, you know, I just. I just got so much stuff going on. You know, I have, I have some plants that I need to water and I got. You know, my cat has this thing with her paw and she's. She's really nervous about it. You know, I just really can't. I just really can't leave it. And I continue to give you explanation on explanation.
George
Sounds like excuses.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. To where George would say, hey, you know what? Why don't you just go ahead and just tell me no. You know, next time you can just say no. Right. And now I've offended you by giving you all these excuses. Right. So that's the bad version, the second version, the better version of how to handle that I just got the invite from George and I would say, man, I'd love to. Something I need to make sure that I do is I made a promise to myself that I'm going to be watching my budget. I can't make it. I know it's going to be an awesome time and I really appreciate you inviting me. So if I were to put this in a nutshell for people. How do you say no to this kind of invite?
George
Whether it could be a bachelorette party, it could be anything that causes you to go. This is gonna cost me some money that I don't have right now, even though I'm sure it would be a great time.
Jefferson Fisher
Let's take a step back. One is, you know, internally, it's because of money. It also could be because you just really don't wanna go. But if we're assuming that it's money, that doesn't mean you have to share that it's about money. Because. Because that makes people. Some people don't share that, that you're trying to save, or you don't have as much money as somebody else. And then it becomes a comparison game. So if you just need to say no instead of the I love to, but I can't and that but word just takes. It deletes anything that comes before it. So that I love to just.
George
I don't think you'd love to now. Exactly. If you wanted to, you would.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. That's like, I love you, but you're kind of crazy. So one we have the version of I'd love to come, but I can't. That's a no go. I'd say that's a thumbs down. The better version is just kind of three part of give them the no, First, I can't make it as easy as that. I can't make it. Not on the cards for me. That's what I like. I like saying not on the cards. Second is saying, thank you. So add your gratitude. Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate you thinking of me. It's gratitude for the invitation. And three, you just tack on a little bit of kindness. That's where it's. I'm sure it's going to be a great time. Let me know how it goes. I'm sure you're going to knock it out of the park, whatever that is. So you really don't have to mention money at all. It can be in the back of your mind if you know why. But I will say if you edit
George
it, depending on the relationship.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. And I do say if you feel like you do need to say why. If somebody goes, why? Why not? One, you could just say, I can't make it sorry, and not have any explanation. But if you feel like you need to with this individual, I like using I've made a promise to myself that blank.
George
Then it's about you.
Jefferson Fisher
Then it's about me. So let's say I'm saying no to that networking event. That's it. That goes from six to eight. I made a promise to myself, I'm going to be home to put the kids in bed. I've made a promise to myself I'm not gonna be drinking alcohol this month. I've made a promise to myself I'm gonna be taken care of X, Y, and Z.
George
Now, you're a man of commitment and integrity. How can I be masterful?
Dave Ramsey
That's the hope.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, that's the hope.
George
Now I'm jealous.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. And now you feel bad. No, it's the same way of, like, I've made a promise to myself that I'm gonna be watching my budget this week, gonna be sticking to my budget, because the other person does not want to be responsible for you breaking your promise. They like it when people want to keep their promise. And then it especially helps if it's true and genuine.
George
All right, next one's a classic Ramsey show call. In this situation, I'm sending money to. You're sending money to meet your mother every month. And I have not done a good job setting myself up financially. And I feel maybe a little bit entitled that my son, who I've sacrificed for, should help support me in my old age. How do you respond to that? When I go, hey, son, I'm needing that 500 bucks again this month, first
Jefferson Fisher
and foremost, of separating out the act from your mother. So the act of giving money instead of mom, I can't send you 500 bucks anymore. Instead, I'm going to make it more objective. So instead of hear the difference, rather than me saying, mom, I can't give you $500 anymore, switch that to saying, mom, the $500 monthly allowance is not something that can continue. You say how I've now made it objective in third person.
George
Because even if you could do it, because then it assumes, well, I can't do it, well, now it's like, well, can you? You just don't want to. Because I don't want to is even worse. And so framing it as, hey, this situation can't continue, right.
Jefferson Fisher
Instead of me sending you, I have an action here. I'm now saying, the monthly payment, the monthly allowance, whatever that is, I've separated it out from what I'm doing, so let's put it there. Especially when it comes to family members, there's this element of priority. I'm needing to make the decision of my family taking priority here. And I know you understand that I'm already. I'm kind of in some way, you are projecting. But you know that if I were to start the conversation with mom, I know that you love my family and you want me to take care of my family more than anything in the world, and that my family should be important to me more than anything. And because that's where my priority is, I cannot continue to keep the 500 monthly whatever. So you could take it that direction. But saying what the priority is and knowing that they agree with it, that's the common ground. That's the common ground.
George
We found that when we give people advice on this, it's usually, hey, set a timeline, almost like the conversation. Give them a heads up.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. You can't just have it like, after.
George
At this point, this will be cut off. And then we even add on, like, I still want to support you, but in a different way. I want to make sure that you are set up to help take care of yourself, give you the resources you need so that you don't have to be reliant on anyone else. You kind of feel that independence. Is there a way to frame that up?
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Well, I want to first say that this idea of, I also want to help you kind of support yourself can be kind of like quicksand. Because some people, I would prefer to play the victim than ever do anything to climb up the ladder that you put in the hole. Like, you know what I mean?
George
I wanted bank of Jefferson. I'm not looking for homework.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. Yeah. Whoa, easy. No, I'm not looking for me. I have to go after Jesus.
George
Because you can't be like mom, you need to get a job. Yeah, that's a harder conversation. Right.
Jefferson Fisher
Well, I do agree with giving them a heads up of the next month's payment needs to be is going to be the last one.
George
Some finality to it.
Jefferson Fisher
There has to be some finality to it and you have to almost. I know it's gonna, it's way easier said than done. But you have to be able to stand firm in knowing that it's gonna be an emotional one. But if you know that you're making it for the right decisions for your family, then what's the overriding, what's the overriding goal there? So that's where my mind goes of. Yeah, there has to be some finality to it. There has to be a heads up. It's going to help when you align what your priorities are because most likely the priority, you can't have one multiple priorities. You can have one. I mean there is a hierarchy of what comes first in your life. If you put your family above God or God above family or how your career is and where money takes, takes it in your life. There has to be some ranking of priority. And that doesn't make you wrong or hurtful. It means you're doing the best you can.
George
While we're talking a lot of great
Dave Ramsey
advice today, here's a hard conversation we need to have. Your bank might be keeping you broke. So if you want to win financially, pick a bank that also wants you to win, like Fairwinds Credit Union, a sponsor of today's video. Because here's the deal. At most big banks, the average interest rate for a savings account is less than half a percent. So on $20,000, you'd make 78 bucks. A not nearly enough to cover your friend's fancy dinner outing. So instead our friends at Fairwinds offer a high yield Savings account at 3% or more, earning you over 600 bucks a year on that same 20 grand. And their smart bundle includes that high yield savings, a no fee checking account and the Ramsey themed debit card. That's a win, win, win. So go get the smart Bundle today@fairwinds.org Ramsey. Now there's one conversation we didn't cover today and that's your personal data being bought and sold across hundreds of websites. We're talking info like your phone number, email, Address, home address, even your family'. And it might explain why your phone rings roughly 47 times a day from unknown numbers trying to approve you for personal loans and extended car warranties. And that's exactly why I use Deleteme, a sponsor of today's video. Deleteme removes your information from hundreds of data broker sites and stays on top
George
of it so you don't have to.
Dave Ramsey
You can even access a customer report showing their work. So go get 20% off through annual plans today@joindeleteme.com George.
George
All right, next one's asking for a raise. I am your boss.
Jefferson Fisher
Okay.
George
Love this scenario. How do you approach me for this raise?
Jefferson Fisher
Well, what I don't do is sit down for the very first time, catching you cold and saying, hey, I'm working. Yeah, you're working.
George
What's up, Jefferson? Hey.
Jefferson Fisher
You got five minutes?
George
I'm in the middle of something, but, yeah, what do you need?
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Okay, so listen, you remember the other day when I kind of. We were kind of talking about, like, business, like, how much, you know, how the business works and stuff? Like, so basically what I'm really looking for is if we can, like, talk about how much money I'm making, you know, or maybe not. We don't have to at this time, but, like, I think maybe I could be making more possibly than I am now.
George
You don't think I pay you enough?
Jefferson Fisher
I mean, you might. You could, but I just know, like,
George
so very awkward energy.
Jefferson Fisher
Super awkward energy coming through. I'm not giving you the headline. I'm now kind of talking around it.
George
Beating around the bush.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah.
George
And a little bit assumptive of, like, well, you're underpaying me.
Jefferson Fisher
Yes. Because me, like, dragging the words out is going to make you frustrated because you got things to do and the first thing you think of is, what's your point? What do you need?
George
Don't waste my time.
Jefferson Fisher
Yep, absolutely. And anytime you start talking immediately out of the gate about, hey, I want a raise, the first thing any business owner or superior is going to know, well, there's two things. One, is it within their authority to do so? Are they the ultimate decision maker?
George
I might need to go to my leader to talk about it. Or a comp committee.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. Or two, their mind's immediately going to go to, can I afford it? What's. If I increase your salary by 1 to $2,000 or $10,000, whatever it is, what's the effect on the bottom line? How is that going to impact? And now if I'm paying You more than what I'm paying somebody else who's been here longer. And now there's. Is there going to be some type of inner office issues or whatever else?
George
Or it's, well, I find out my coworker is making more than me and I've been here longer and we have the same title. Right now I'm frustrated and coming in emotionally.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. And now you sound like you're complaining. Right. So what I would recommend, and every business is different like we talked about, and I know what you do so well on all of your shows, is to be able to equip people with this kind of information on how you're gonna ask for a raise. Where my mind goes to is, number one, you take a learner mentality rather than coming in of, hey, so I just learned that George down the hall, he's like, this sounds crazy, but he said he's making this. And I've been here longer. But like, you know, what's up with that? Instead of that, you come into this conversation with, I need your help. Like when you were in my shoes, what did you find the best way, the best levers to increase your salary? If you knew you wanted to be here long term, how's the best way you found to structure your career here? And the way you moved up, what's the best way that you've found to kind of ask for X, Y and Z? And most likely the superior. Now you've taken off that pressure of that defensiveness, that scarcity mentality.
George
Well, you're not asking for a raise now you're asking how to grow. And now they're in a mentor advice position, which is a great position for a leader to be.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. Now if you go, okay, Jefferson, that sounds cool, but I need something a little bit more aggressive then I would say time, timing is a huge aspect of it. You can't do just the. You got five minutes. You need to set this up of an email or a conversation where you go, hey, next week I'd really like to set some time where we can kind of look at my compensation structure and take about 30 minutes or so. And they should be able to agree with that. But now you're giving them a heads up so it's not coming out of left field. And then you come with resources or you come with actual things you want to.
George
An idea for a growth plan, something like that.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Because if you want to make sure that you are not bleeding out the business. Right. You don't want to. You're in favor of the ship going in the right direction because you want it to survive too. At the same time, you're saying, hey, I also want to feel like I'm intrinsically motivated and have the ability to do that. So then what I would encourage is when you have that conversation and you sit down, it's not a, hey, I need to know right now, am I getting a raise or I need to give a raise? They can't make that decision. That's the worst. If you give an ultimatum, be ready
George
to pack up your bag.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly.
George
Sounds like we can't pay you enough. The next job can.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah.
George
See ya.
Jefferson Fisher
See ya later. The ultimatum is, and what's worse is if you're somebody critical and you know you're critical, you're then twisting their arm. Right now you're being almost cruel in a way because you know you have leverage and they don't want to lose you and their business can't really take that. And you know that. So you're kind of taking advantage of that.
George
Well, it hurts your personal brand long term and your ability to grow there.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. And now they're going to actually resent you. And that's the worst move you can make when you're trying to ask for a raise. So instead, when you have that conversation, say something as simple as, I want to talk about my current company structure, my current rate structure, and this is a conversation I like to have over the next three weeks of what are ways that we can look at or what goals need to be achieved so that we are working in tandem towards something of, okay, if I need to hit a certain salary, what do I need to do? This is what I want to make. What do I need to do?
George
What must be true. That's a more interesting conversation.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. So, but you hear how by saying, I want to add several weeks to this, I've now eliminated that pressure valve in the conversation.
George
All right, last one. Friends making bad financial decisions or family, We've all been there. You want to help someone avoid a big mistake that's going to hurt them. And I'm your close friend. I just told you I'm pulling my entire 401k out early withdrawal to invest in my brother in law's vending machine business.
Jefferson Fisher
So version one, the bad version is me coming and saying, look, dude, George, this is the worst mistake you could possibly make. You're going to tank your savings and ruin your life potentially. If I say, you can't do this, George, you can't do that, what's the first thing you Think of.
George
Well, now I'm defensive.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah.
George
And you're going, well, you don't believe in me.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly.
George
Well, you think I'm an idiot.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. If I tell you you can't, the first thing you say is, yes, I can. Yeah. What, you don't believe me? In my intelligence and my incredible money
George
skills, one gives you the right.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly.
George
Who do you think you are?
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Exactly. Do you see this? I just, you know, I read a book, and it taught me everything. And this is Vending Machine 101.
George
Nobody read a book and then started a vending machine business.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah.
George
It was 60 seconds on TikTok from a goober being like, bro, I'm counting all my change. I made 20 grand this month.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. Passiveincome. Yeah.
George
Hashtag getmycourse.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So the better way of doing that is I would use that same framing we said a minute ago. Look, George, I'm telling you this because I love you, dude. I hear that excitement that you have about the vending machine, and you've been talking about it a lot, and, man, I hear all that, and I'm happy that you're happy. I also, because I love you, I have something that I want to tell you that I've learned. And are you good with me sharing that?
George
First and foremost, asking permission.
Jefferson Fisher
Asking permission.
George
Because they didn't ask for your advice, but you can ask for permission to give unsolicited advice, and then they get to decide if they take it.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. And it's okay to say, can I share with you something that I've learned? Or, like, not even the word advice is sometimes very prickly to people.
George
Well, that connects a hierarchy of I'm smarter than you.
Jefferson Fisher
You got it.
George
I have more wisdom than you have.
Jefferson Fisher
Yes. Which in some cases, you may or may not, you know, and so it's like, can I offer you some free advice? Like, nobody goes, yeah, please. They're like, no, I'll pass on that. Because usually what you've learned has to cost you something. Advice that's free, sometimes not that great. And there's a reason why it's free, because it didn't cost them anything.
George
That's how people feel about the Ramsey show. When they call me for, they're like,
Jefferson Fisher
oh, is there anybody else?
George
Is there? And Dave's the first to say, hey, the show is free, so you get what you pay for.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, well, that's fair.
George
It's worth every cent.
Jefferson Fisher
So I would say, first off is, you're asking permission. Do you mind if I Share something that I've learned or can I share with you something that's really on my heart about this? That I honestly, as a friend, I'm not gonna feel good. I'm not settled.
George
Like, I'm not gonna sleep well at night unless I tell you this. Tell you this makes it about you.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly.
George
Loving a friend.
Jefferson Fisher
Right. And it could be as simple as, look, even if you can totally disregard this, I need to say this for my own conscience. And they're gonna be like, okay, go ahead and share it. And that's where you get to share your heart in this. And you talk in terms of what my fear is instead of, look, you're going about this all wrong. They're lying to you. This is stupid. You're gonna get screwed. You're gonna ruin it. You're go, you're going to fail. Instead of all that, it's my fear for you. Is this my care for you? Is this what I want to see is your success? And because I care about your success and the benefit of your future, this is where my mind is. Here's some icebergs that I really would want you to be aware of. So that's a much better approach rather than the dude, what are you dimming?
George
That's so that's the stupidest idea I've ever had.
Jefferson Fisher
The dumbest thing I've ever heard.
George
You and your brother in law are dimwits.
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly.
George
That's where we differ. I might just go in for the dimwit line. I think that's a good line.
Jefferson Fisher
It could be.
George
Well, this was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. I feel like I'm gonna approach conversations differently. Even as I host the Ramsey show this afternoon with Dave, I'm gonna be thinking about how to be more winsome, how to be more persuasive, how to not get someone too defensive or to shut down. And it's very nuanced and it's hard to do. And I think it's a skill that takes a lifetime of mastery and you've achieved it somehow at your young age. So thank you for that. I want everyone to check out your book and where they can find you. Will you let us know?
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Don't make it hard. It's jeffersonfisher.com and my book was a New York Times bestseller. The Next Conversation, how to Argue Less and Talk More.
George
And of course, your YouTube channel, which already surpassed a million subscribers. Congratulations.
Jefferson Fisher
Thank you very much.
George
You beat me to it somehow. Really, with your good looks and charm and Great advice. I should try all of those.
Jefferson Fisher
Well, with your acting skills, I know it's going to be in no time, man.
George
I'm not meant for YouTube.
Dave Ramsey
I'm made for the big screen, baby.
Jefferson Fisher
That's true. You are. That's true. Really.
George
Well, thanks, man. Appreciate it.
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, brother. All the best, man.
Dave Ramsey
Huge thanks to Jefferson for joining us today.
George
Easily one of my favorite conversations with a lawyer. To be fair, the bar was low.
Dave Ramsey
If today's episode hit home, you're gonna
George
want to watch this next one where
Dave Ramsey
Dr. John Deloney breaks down the real connection between money and anxiety. No prescription required, no copay. Just click here or use the link in the description. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.
Podcast: George Kamel (Ramsey Network)
Date: June 17, 2026
Host: George Kamel (with Dave Ramsey)
Guest: Jefferson Fisher (trial lawyer turned communication expert, NYT bestselling author "The Next Conversation")
This episode dives deep into the crucial role communication plays in solving and preventing money-related conflicts, whether with spouses, family, friends, or at work. George Kamel and Dave Ramsey host guest Jefferson Fisher, who brings his expertise as a communication specialist to tackle real-life money conversations. Together, they roleplay scenarios and break down actionable speaking strategies, focusing on specific language and timing to nurture relationships and find positive outcomes, all wrapped in light-hearted banter and real talk.
“The most expensive conversations are the ones that you know are gonna cost you and they are damaging you and you don't stop.”
— Jefferson Fisher (00:00)
“Just the phrase ‘help me’ is extremely helpful when you say, ‘I need your help.’”
— Jefferson Fisher (05:14)
“Graceful no: 1. I can't make it. 2. Thank you for inviting me. 3. I know it'll be a great time.”
— Jefferson Fisher (11:43)
“The $500 monthly allowance is not something that can continue.”
— Jefferson Fisher (13:15)
“Timing is a huge aspect ... you need to set this up of an email or a conversation where you go, hey, next week I'd really like to set some time ...”
— Jefferson Fisher (22:24)
“My fear for you is this, my care for you is this ... here's some icebergs that I really would want you to be aware of.”
— Jefferson Fisher (28:05)
“Advice that's free, sometimes not that great. And there's a reason why it's free, because it didn't cost them anything.”
— Jefferson Fisher (27:30)
Humorous banter:
“It was 60 seconds on TikTok from a goober being like, bro, I made 20 grand this month.” — George (26:02)
“The dumbest thing I've ever heard. You and your brother in law are dimwits.” — George (28:59)
The episode emphasizes that the exact words you use—and especially how and when you say them—can make all the difference. From stopping money fights before they start to gracefully declining social invitations or setting boundaries with loved ones, the frameworks provided give listeners tools to build stronger, less stressful relational dynamics around money.
Find Jefferson Fisher at jeffersonfisher.com and his bestselling book, “The Next Conversation: How to Argue Less and Talk More.”