George Kamel (2:37)

Yeah, I'm glad you get that too.

Dave Ramsey (2:39)

Hundreds.

George Kamel (2:40)

Wow. Well, I'm glad you're doing okay. After the news of the 50 year mortgage. I think you were working on your tan in Cabo at the time. I don't think you were that concerned. People think that you're glued to the headlines going, oh my gosh, I looked.

Dave Ramsey (2:51)

Really bad in picture.

George Kamel (2:53)

You know, you had lost some weight.

Dave Ramsey (2:54)

He photoshopped the into serious icu.

George Kamel (2:58)

Yeah, yeah, but let's talk about that. You had mentioned it on air. I did a video on it and people are going, man, Dave's gonna have a field day with this one. And you were very clear about it. So what are your feelings about the 50 year mortgage that Trump proposed?

Dave Ramsey (3:12)

I'm assuming, and I said this on the air, that President Trump actually understands the math. If he does, this was a completely bogus political stunt. Just like Biden saying he was gonna forgive the student loans when he didn't have the power to do it. And he knew he didn't have the power to do it.

George Kamel (3:31)

He just doesn't make headlines.

Dave Ramsey (3:32)

He was just trying to say, look at me, I'm doing something. Because if he understands the math, he knows that the 50 year mortgage doesn't really do anything. Cause the difference in your payment on a 30 year and a 50 year, it doesn't lower it almost in half, it lowers it only 16%.

George Kamel (3:50)

And that's if the interest rates stay the same. If the interest rate's higher, it's a wash. Yeah.

Dave Ramsey (3:53)

If the interest rates are both 5%, it lowers it 16% to go to almost double the number of years you're in. And from a 15 to a 30 is not double. You know, again, you're not saving half. When you go from a 15 to a 30, you only save about 24% doing that. So that's why we've always recommended 15 year, because the math on mortgages does not work on a straight line. It works on a curve, a geometric progression, compound interest working against you. And so, yeah, the 50 year mortgage is. It's come up before when interest rates were high or the real estate market was slow, but when anybody runs the math out on it, they're like, it doesn't really do anything.

George Kamel (4:34)

It doesn't solve much.

Dave Ramsey (4:35)

It doesn't like make housing affordable.

George Kamel (4:38)

Well, some countries have the hundred year mortgage where it's just generational debt and you get to inherit it as a.

Dave Ramsey (4:43)

Gift from your might as well just do interest only cause that's what essentially. Cause they plan to never pay it off.

George Kamel (4:48)

Yeah. The amount you're actually attacking principal with.

Dave Ramsey (4:50)

Is absolutely stupid, by the way.

George Kamel (4:52)

Yeah. The heart of it is home prices have gotten ridiculous. And maybe this will be helpful, which we now know it's not. But it's led to this movement of the quote, forever renter. This person who's just going, I'll never own a house. I'm just gonna make peace with that and rent forever until I die. What's the point of home ownership? What do you tell that person who's maybe lost hope or even just goes, it's not for me.

Dave Ramsey (5:14)

Well, it's kind of sad that you reach that point. But there's always been people, when people feel like they can't get something, they feel like they can't control their own destiny. That my actions, I cannot through my actions I control the controllables I can't get there. Then that equals hopelessness, which equals kind of drama queen stuff like in my generation people would say stuff like, well, the little man can't get ahead. You're stuck, man. The man, the corporations, the administration, they would make up all these words that they didn't know what they meant, but the little man stuck the system. And so you're always gonna have a car payment. She might as well get you a good car, son. And this kind of stuff. And it's the same lie in a bull. Right? It's the same thing as saying, I can't get what I want. And this is my passive aggressive, negative version of throwing a hissy fit. And so I'll just rent. I can't do anything. I'll never be able to buy a house. So I'm just going to be a renter and then I'm going to do a TikTok on it to show that I'm smart and I'm sophisticated. You're not smart or sophisticated. You just gave up hope. That's all it is. You just gave up and you gave up based on where you sit today and where the market sits today, which is not the reality of where you will be 10 years from now or where the market will be 10 years from now. Things change. And so today maybe you can't afford to buy a home based on your income and the Location that you chose and the current housing prices, that might be true today, but to extrapolate that through 50 or 60 or 70 years of your life, that's dumb. Obviously.

George Kamel (6:58)

That's not to say where I am today is where I'm always gonna be.

Dave Ramsey (7:01)

It's not true, you know, I mean, at any given point in my life, there's something I couldn't afford, and that doesn't mean I can never afford it. I can never have a nice car. I was a broke college student. Of course I couldn't afford a nice car. You know, we got our first little whole house, you know, but that doesn't mean never. House prices are just ridiculous. House price has always been ridiculous. The first house Sharon and I bought was 80,000 bucks. It was almost identical to the home I grew up in that my parents bought 25 years before. It was within six miles of the house they bought 25 years before for 12,000.

George Kamel (7:41)

So if you look back, you're always going to go, oh, my gosh, the prices are insane compared to 100% 30 years ago.

Dave Ramsey (7:47)

I mean, my parents were looking at us going, you paid 80. Have you lost your mind? You're going to go broke. You're going to hell. Everyone. The whole family tree is destroyed. And it was, you know, and that house is 80,000 in 1982 or whatever. And so now what is that house today? It's 600.

George Kamel (8:08)

Wow. And the math.

Dave Ramsey (8:10)

500 or 500 or whatever it is. 400, something like that. But obviously it's gone up. But it went up from 25 years before I bought it. And so that's just. Again, you cannot take a particular moment in time. Life is a film strip. It's not a snapshot. And so the next frame, something changes. The next frame, something changes. The next frame, something changes. And you could be the roadrunner, something, you know, the anvil could fall on your head in the next frame. Or you could be, you know, that you could be Rudy, and you finally get in the game, you know, in the next frame. And so you don't know what the next frame is, but the only thing for sure is change. That's the only thing you can count on. So to extrapolate a negative situation as your only possible destiny, that's just defeatist.

George Kamel (8:54)

Well, it's assuming the anvil's gonna fall on me, so why move? Yeah, that's essentially where they went.

Dave Ramsey (8:59)

It's fatalism. It's a defeatist attitude. Little man can't get ahead.

George Kamel (9:03)

That's it. I'm A little guy and I made it. I got ahead. So I think I'm living proof.

Dave Ramsey (9:08)

George, we're not talking about physical.

George Kamel (9:09)

Oh, okay. I didn't understand that. Well, let's get into your outlook for 2026. What are you most hopeful for as you've been seeing things play out?

Dave Ramsey (9:19)

I'm always early to the party on something being positive. So I'm really hopeful that the energy sector really gets moving and gets the economy moving. And I thought it would already be there and it's there, but it's not where I thought it would be. By this time a year ago, if you asked me, I would have said by now we've been drill, baby, drill. And we're, it's okay. But I'd like to see that get heated up, no pun intended. And I'd like to see the real estate market get heated up again. Not all the way to more people.

George Kamel (9:54)

Selling, more people buying.

Dave Ramsey (9:55)

Yeah, Just more activity, just more things going on. And you know, cause that, that moves the market around and that lets people. Because, see, part of what happens is, is that there's no inventory because people feel stuck. So they don't want to move up out of their great interest rate or they don't want to move up into a house that they think is overpriced. But if the market starts moving again and people start moving, then you're freeing up those entry level inventory pieces that are now kind of frozen. And so the market, some churn in the market is good for people to be able to enter the market. And so I'd like to see the real estate market get moving and I hope it does.

George Kamel (10:32)

So we need more supply there, which is going to mean people selling or builders building.

Dave Ramsey (10:37)

Yeah, exactly. And you know, I saw a thing the other day, I mean, I was talking to a real estate expert guy and he was just saying, you know, anything we can do to get inventory up, supply up, it holds prices, holds the price down even if the market's honking. And part of what we've had is we've had these major national corporations, Both real estate REITs and Chinese companies and everything else coming in and they're buying entire streets of houses and taking them off the market permanently turning them into rentals. So they're sucking the supply out. So that is actually a policy thing that the Trump administration could do.

George Kamel (11:17)

You could stop this, you could stop.

Dave Ramsey (11:19)

This gigantic corporate sucking sound on the inventory or Chinese sound or whoever group it is. It's both. And just get more supply on the street. And that's a policy decision. That's not an economics thing. But it has an economic impact. Because if you could just say, all right, all the. I don't know, let's just call it a million houses that are off the market now because of that. They're not going to continue to pull that away from the marketplace because that's part of what's driven the problem is a lack of inventory.

George Kamel (11:52)

Yeah. Well, I've heard a solution to this, and maybe you know, more about it, is this sort of portable mortgage idea which has been in existence, but it doesn't really work out. If someone could just take their current rate, move it to a new house, more people would sell in a perfect world. But that's not how it works in the lending world. You can't just move the mortgage with it.

Dave Ramsey (12:09)

Yeah, it's a theory. But the mechanics of that theory are so complicated, given the system that's set up today, that I.

George Kamel (12:19)

You wouldn't bank on it, quite literally.

Dave Ramsey (12:21)

No, I would literally not bank on it.

George Kamel (12:23)

Well, what are you most concerned about in 2026? What keeps you up at night?

Dave Ramsey (12:28)

People being hopeless for the wrong reasons on either side. Yeah. There's no reason to be hopeless. There's always a way to do something. There's always a way to take another step in the right direction. The American dream, the American system is not devastatingly flawed to the point that the average person can't go and be somebody. And there's more negativity and more hopelessness, and in the name of sophistication, they try to dress it up. You know, we've spent our whole lives proving that someone can start from nothing and be somebody in America more than any other system in the history of man. But this negative Debbie Downer all over TikTok and Debbie Downer all over Instagram, and they spend their amazing amount of brain calories trying to prove that life sucks and it's impossible.

George Kamel (13:29)

Well, you can get likes and views for it now. Back in the day, it was just you and your buddies complaining to each other. Now you can actually get some engagement out of it.

Dave Ramsey (13:35)

Yeah. And there was beer involved then, so, you know, but it's like, golly, you can't even get that now. So the game changes. Now you just get the negative.

George Kamel (13:43)

Yeah. So we need more hopeful people going, I control more than I think in my life.

Dave Ramsey (13:48)

The American dream is not dead. Your life is not horrible. This is the best time in the history of man to be alive. There's more opportunity now, more chance to be somebody. More chance to build wealth and change your family tree. It's easier now at this moment than at any time in human history. It's easier than when I started and I became a millionaire twice. I'm so dumb, I had to do it two times.

George Kamel (14:12)

Just to prove it to yourself. You could do it again.

Dave Ramsey (14:14)

Prove it to everybody.

George Kamel (14:15)

I always think if you have the ability to complain from a smartphone with shelter and AC or heat, you're doing okay.

Dave Ramsey (14:23)

Yeah, I mean, this world problem and complain about rich people, which is kind of. That's funny.

George Kamel (14:29)

Well, even that is the spectrum of that has changed because now when you talk about rich or wealthy, you're not talking about average millionaires. They're thinking of billionaires in their head and going, well, this doesn't work because I can never be a billionaire. So what's the point? When did the goalpost move so drastically?

Dave Ramsey (14:45)

Well, a billion is 1000 million. And so, yeah, that is not for everyone. Can't get there.

George Kamel (14:52)

Especially with the 401k.

Dave Ramsey (14:55)

Everyone's not that pretty, that smart, that positioned, that lucky, that whatever it takes a different skill set and a different thing to get there. I mean, the millionaires that we've studied, we know what they did. They saved in their 401, they got their house paid off and they live below their means and they have two cars, one house, no jet. Okay, now that's, you know, but when you talk to billionaires, you know, we talk to Jimmy John, he's got two jets, you know, and he's worth three billion.

George Kamel (15:26)

One for him, one for his wife.

Dave Ramsey (15:27)

But he grew a massive business. You know, you can't save your way in your 401k into a billion. That's not possible. So it's a different formula to get there.

George Kamel (15:38)

And it's mostly entrepreneurs who did it.

Dave Ramsey (15:41)

Almost all the billionaires in the Forbes 400 that are first generation that didn't inherit it, which is like 70 of them are first gen, but they're almost all business. Somehow they either grew a business and sold it, they grew a business, took it public, or they grew a business and own a massive amount of cash flow.

George Kamel (15:56)

So entrepreneurship is still a prosperous path in your mind.

Dave Ramsey (16:01)

You can still do it. I mean, you know, I mean, opportunity's not over. I mean, you got, there's all kinds of stuff you can do.

George Kamel (16:07)

There's more problems to solve.

Dave Ramsey (16:08)

Absolutely.

George Kamel (16:09)

You can do it better than someone else.

Dave Ramsey (16:10)

There always is. And you've got access to information and you can move so quickly now versus, you know, we would have to Actually mail a letter and put a stamp on it. You know, how long since any of you done that?

George Kamel (16:24)

Send a fax, golly a fax.

Dave Ramsey (16:31)

And then it's waxy paper and it would smear and terrible contract wasn't binding. And now I can send you an email and you can scratch your fingernail on something and I have a binding contract.

George Kamel (16:45)

You know, what a time to be alive. Something to be thankful for that we don't have to fax anymore, hopefully. Well, we've seen lots of ups and downs in the economy over the last few years and people are still, even though the economy has been doing well as far as the stock market goes, we've had some great years. People are still worried. And we're a year into a new presidential administration. What's going well and what isn't, as.

Dave Ramsey (17:08)

Far as you've seen it, the actual fundamentals, the actual pieces of the economy are going stronger than people think they are. That's going well. What's not going well is no one's telling people that. The difference in a Ronald Reagan and a Donald Trump was Ronald Reagan told you every day how wonderful things were and made you believe it, and then you went out and acted as if things were wonderful. And guess what? Self fulfilling prophecy, things became wonderful. Donald Trump is doing all of these things, but the only thing he's doing is just pissing everybody off in the process. He just, you know, he likes to controversy, making fun of ABC reporters or something, you know, instead of, instead of going, hey guys, America's greatest country, you know, make America great again. Look at me, I did it. Instead of going, you're the hero. And you guys, you guys out there can really do this stuff. I've created an environment where you can go be somebody now. Go be somebody. And I'm showing you how to do that. That was Reagan's masterpiece. And you know, to Bill Clinton's credit, didn't agree with a lot of his politics, but he had one of the best economies in his presidency and he actually bounced the freaking budget.

George Kamel (18:16)

That's impressive.

Dave Ramsey (18:17)

Little known fact, nobody talks about it, was very impressive. But he made you believe that you could go in. He didn't try to make Washington the hero of the story. And my problem with politicians is always they try to make themselves the bad ones. Politicians try to make themselves the hero of the story. Statesmen make you the hero of the story. And they're there to serve, they're public servants. And President Trump has not done a good job with that. And I'm A supporter, I endorsed him for president and all that kind of stuff. But I'm not a worshiper. And so, you know, I'd like to see the bully pulpit, so to speak, make people believe again, not just in you, but in America and in this is what's going on. You can do this. Because that's what I do. And I believe, and I truly believe that I think it's true. I don't think it's a false narrative. And so I think that's what's not going right.

George Kamel (19:13)

Well, for 30 years now, you've made our audience, our viewers, the hero in the story. You know, anytime they come up on the stage and they say, dave, you helped me become debt free, you quickly say, no, I didn't.

Dave Ramsey (19:24)

You did it.

George Kamel (19:25)

You did the work. We're just here to coach you, guide you along the way. And I think that makes a huge difference.

Dave Ramsey (19:30)

What I did do is I made you believe you could do it. Not that I was gonna do it for you, but I made you believe you could do it. And that's one of the secret sauces of all of Ramsey, of you and Rachel and Jade and Deloney and Coleman, all of us. I mean, our job is to make you believe you can do it. And here's some tools and here's some fresh ideas and here's a dose of hope to stir into it. And by the way, we can laugh while we're doing it and let's do all that. And then if you believe you can do it, then you'll take the steps and go do it. But belief and hope are a big deal.

George Kamel (20:03)

Well, you have referenced the IRS as the kgb, jokingly, I might add, big fans. And then Trump proposed to abolish the irs. So are you on board with that and could it actually work?

Dave Ramsey (20:19)

Well, like a lot of things, some of this is for shock value, but what would work is if you change the tax system, you could abolish the irs, but as long as you have an income tax system, that the volumes would fill this entire studio with all the regulations, you're going to have the irs. I mean, you're not going to just let people go. Well, may or may not do what those things say. I'll just turn in my thing and good luck. But if you did away with. The only way you can do away with the IRS is do away with income tax. In other words. So if you went to something like a national sales tax Europe has, or the fair tax that was put out many years ago, national sales tax idea, it either you calculated on the item, that's it. There's only one way to do it. You don't need volumes of regulations to figure out how to do it. And most states have a sales tax. And today all of our software, those of us that sell on our website at Ramsey, automatically collects tax from the state of Washington. If you're in the state of Washington. And then we send the state of Washington their portion automatically does it. Our algorithms, our software that we've got builds that in. And so you could do that national with a national VAT tax, a value added tax or whatever and do away with income tax and then you could do away with the IRS and nobody would be mad. That's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of employees.

George Kamel (21:41)

Yeah, it's wild how many people work there and what it costs. The tax numbers of buildings run it.

Dave Ramsey (21:46)

That we have for them to be in. Also they pick on us. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's gross.

George Kamel (21:52)

Well, and I mean Tennessee, there's no state income tax. A lot of people love it when they move here.

Dave Ramsey (21:56)

Right.

George Kamel (21:56)

Because they're saving a bunch of money. Yeah, it's a huge reason. So. And we do have, you know, a fairly high sales tax that helps, you.

Dave Ramsey (22:03)

Know, lower than some. Higher than some. Yeah, yeah.

George Kamel (22:06)

All right. I'm here for it. Let's go back to the 50 year mortgage for a second. The entire Internet said, I can't wait to hear what Dave says about this. And, and that's because you've been remarkably consistent for the last 30 years saying, Hey, I want you to be completely debt free. If you can pay for a house in cash, do it, but I'm not going to yell at you if you do a 15 year mortgage. We get a lot of flack for our principles never changing despite the economy changing. Why not make tweaks to the baby steps? The people want to know, why is Dave so staunch that this is the way it has to be?

Dave Ramsey (22:36)

Well, if the reason that we're supposed to make a tweak to one of our suggestions is to convenience you and encourage you to do something that's harmful to you. Well, that would be kind of dumb, you know, and so. Oh, well, because the economy's bad, let's go with adjustable rate 30 year mortgages or let's go with a 50 year mortgage or let's go with an interest only mortgage. Things are struggling and the poor little people can't get little houses and they're a little upset. And so let's change everything. And so let's give a drunk a drink. Let's go. Because you know, because you're in New York City or you're in California. Yeah. So math doesn't math there. And you're the outlier. You know, you're the exception. You get to do something that is self destructive. I'm going to let you kill yourself. Yeah. I'm going to let you shoot yourself in the foot. Why would I do that? No, I'm not going to change that. We would change something in the baby steps, not because it is inconvenient to you, but only if it's bad for you. But if you follow these steps and you grind it out 100% of the time, it works.

George Kamel (23:45)

If you go all in, if you.

Dave Ramsey (23:47)

Follow it and grind it out and do what we teach, which is all in 100% of the time, it works that you work it. And so I'm not changing that because it's there for you. It's not there for me. I'm already there. I've got financial peace. Life's good. Dave. Insurance. Okay, so we're good. It's not for me. But I'm not gonna make you feel good about doing something that's harmful to you because I love you and I want you to win. You know, why would I do that? If you're looking at your own child and you go, yeah, well, I know it's kind of tough, so why don't you do drugs? That's a good idea. It's like, I know it's wasn't like it was when I was a kid. When I was a kid, it was a different society. But today, today you really ought to do, you ought to really do crack.

George Kamel (24:32)

That's gentle parenting, you know, that's just.

Dave Ramsey (24:34)

Like, that's just dumber than crap. Why would I do that? I'm not gonna tell somebody to do something that hurts them. And so yes, we would adjust the baby steps, but not because of your whining or not because of your little drama queen or. Cause it's hard. It's always been hard. You know, that's why we've always looked and said being a millionaire is a big deal. There's not as many of them because it's hard. Normal's broke because normal people do stupid stuff. When I was doing stupid stuff, I was normal. That's what I'm. Same thing. And so yeah, it's hard. Winning is always hard. It's always harder than losing. It's always harder than being mediocre and average crap in America. Today you can just wake up and breathe and have a really good life. Just kind of coast through the whole stupid thing. But if you really want to win now, you're going to have some pain.

George Kamel (25:21)

Dave. Hold on, Dave, one second. Do not. Dave, don't move. Hold still. Perfect. Thank you. All right, we'll get back to the conversation in just a minute, but first let me explain why I'm really excited about pants these days. That's right, Dave. Pants. Two words. Cozy Earth, who happen to be sponsors of today's video. Their Everywhere pants make you look put together without feeling put together, if that makes sense. Structured, flexible, perfect for the office, your home office or the Oval Office. And when the day's done, treat yourself to Cozy Earth's bamboo joggers, which are somehow even more soft and breathable. Best of all, you can try them risk free with a 30 day return window. And right now you can get up to 20% off by using the promo code george@cozyearth.com george or by clicking the link in the description below. And before we get back to the conversation, I've got an important PSA for you. Right now your personal info is floating around the Internet and plenty of online thieves are out there just waiting to capture your data and sell it to the highest bidder. And that's where Deleteme comes in. They track down your data and delete it from these sketchy data broker websites so you don't have to worry about constant calls, texts and emails from spammers and scammers. Deleteme will even send you a custom report so you know exactly what they did and how much time they saved you. And right now you can get 20% off their annual plans@joindeleteme.com George or use the link in the description below. Dave, thank you for your patience. Well, I've noticed on air over the years you've tended to lose your patience with people who know the plan and want to argue that it doesn't work yet they haven't done it. So what are the people that you have little patience for on the air? Like, what's going to cause you to hang up on someone the fastest when they call into the show?

Dave Ramsey (27:01)

Well, I mean, keep in mind the Ramsey show is there and always has been to help people. So when you call in, we're trying to help two people, the person calling and all those hundred million people listening or whatever's listening that day. Right, all that stuff. So trying to help both of them. And so if you as a caller cease to Be helpful to all of them. We're gonna move on.

George Kamel (27:26)

We're gonna put you on hold. Which we don't actually hang up on them. It's important to note they can still hear you. We have just muted them.

Dave Ramsey (27:32)

I've just ended the discussion with you. I'm just now gonna tell you it's like a four year old, that melting down in the cereal aisle and I want it. I want it right now. I want my Froot Loops. And you can't tell me I can't have Fruit Loops. It's like, I'm not gonna negotiate with that.

George Kamel (27:48)

So the threat is you actually don't want help. Yeah, that's when it's.

Dave Ramsey (27:52)

Yeah. And so some questions are not real questions. They're actually passive aggressive statements. It's like, Dave, you don't really believe that you can get 11 or 12% in an index fund, do you? Yes, if you pull up an index fund, it's not, Santa says 11.8% for the last 75 years. Hello, on S and P. Yes, I believe that math. Yes, I do. And just because your brain doesn't work good doesn't mean that I don't believe that. So. But that's not a question. See, that's a statement. You don't really believe that, do you? Yeah, I do. And so they're really saying you're an idiot. And I'm right and I'm calling up to debate with you, but I really don't have the courage to do that. So I'm going to ask a question that's not really a question, it's a statement. So that kind of stuff, passive aggressive, I don't have much use for. But the person calling up for help, I will help them from now on. So the one person we. Number one, when you cease to be helpful to yourself or to someone else, the discussion is not adding value to people's lives. We need to move on. Number two, I'm not going to argue with you. I didn't call you and ask you your opinion. You called me and asked me my opinion.

George Kamel (29:07)

This is not a debate club.

Dave Ramsey (29:09)

This is not, you know, I don't mind having a discussion with you and explaining to you why something is. But, you know, and so like the fourth time you tell me you're not gonna do something that I just said to do, I can't help you. I remember one, Rachel was on with me in the early days and she was just aghast that I just popped one. And she's like this lady called up and they owed like $75,000 on this stinking Escalade or something. And she's like, and they made 45,000 bucks. And I said, well, I mean, you're gonna have to sell Escalade. And she goes, well, I didn't call about that. I don't really care what you called about. You have to.

George Kamel (29:53)

You just revealed this new information.

Dave Ramsey (29:54)

You guys cannot win with this Escalade. The math doesn't work. And she's like, well, that's a non starter. We're not even going to have that discussion. I said, you know, and George is calling from, you know, wherever, right? And Russell's like, you just cut her. Yeah, I'm not. I can't help her if she keeps the Escalade.

George Kamel (30:14)

Yeah. When your intuition on how this call is going to go, who we can help while trying to, you know, make a show happen?

Dave Ramsey (30:20)

Well, they're arguing with you when you're telling them exactly what they need to do. You know, like, you go in and you, okay, you sit down with your personal trainer. You got a keg, they got a six pack, right? And they go, well, you know, you need to eat this and this and this. And you don't need to eat this and this and this. And you go, oh, yeah. But pizza in my. I think pizza. Pizza's a non starter. I mean, and donuts. Seven donuts every morning is a non starter. The personal trainer is like, what are you paying me for? You're an idiot. You know, why am I even in this room with this moron? And that's what they're thinking. And like, you know, you're going to argue with them about their nutrition plan or they're like, okay, pick up this weight. No, I don't usually pick up weights. You know, it's like, I think that's something.

George Kamel (31:00)

Not a weight guy.

Dave Ramsey (31:01)

I'm not really a weight guy. And they're like, what the heck am I doing here? You know, it's that people do that on our show. They do it all the time. And so we, you know, we keep them on for a minute for the entertainment value, but really they're not adding value. So I'm not gonna argue with you when you cease to be helpful to everybody else. Those are the two main things. The third one that gets pretty quick is you tell me for about way too long how much you love the show and you've listened for 14 years and your parents have listened and your grandparents have listened to. Now, Dave, I want to ask you about leasing a car. I'M like, you're just. It's the.

George Kamel (31:40)

You know better.

Dave Ramsey (31:41)

You know, one of these things. Something in this conversation is not true. You know, if you've been listening all that time and you call up with something that's exactly perpendicular. Now, if you're brand new and you don't know who we are and you ask a question that's like that, yeah, that's exactly what we want. We're going to give you the opportunity to teach you why. That's a really stupid butt idea. Mathematically bad. It's the most expensive way to operate a vehicle. I don't care what your CPA said. You need to fire them if they told you to do this. I don't care what your mama said. I don't care what this is why. And we could talk through and teach you why not to lease a car. But if you call up and set the whole thing up with you. You know, I've been through Financial Peace University three times. I've read every one of your books. I'm a huge fan. And Dave, I'm getting ready to lease a brand new Navigator. I'm like, what the.

George Kamel (32:27)

They just want permission for their bad decisions.

Dave Ramsey (32:29)

No, they don't either. They don't even want that. It's. It's like. I don't know. It's like they just wanted to be on the air to hear themselves, hear them, hear their mouth. I. I mean, why would you walk into the bear's den and, you know, throw raw meat in front of him and then jump towards him? I mean, I don't understand. It's not. It doesn't.

George Kamel (32:46)

You're the bear in this case.

Dave Ramsey (32:47)

Well, I mean, we are. Ramsay is not just me.

George Kamel (32:50)

I'm a cub at best.

Dave Ramsey (32:51)

Y' all don't. Y' all don't.

George Kamel (32:53)

That's generous.

Dave Ramsey (32:54)

Yeah, Grizzly cub. But. Yeah, but the. Yeah, but I'm saying that, you know, when y' all calling, I watch Rachel and you take a guy down the other day. I mean, same thing.

George Kamel (33:01)

Oh, yeah. Rachel is brutal on that guy.

Dave Ramsey (33:03)

Same thing, though.

George Kamel (33:04)

He wants to buy his toys and tell him the toy.

Dave Ramsey (33:08)

But, you know, but. And so what we'll do is if you're brand new is. And we all are in agreement at Ramsey about this, is we start with gentle and go, okay, here's what's going on. And we try to meet you where you are, figure out how you're analyzing this, and let's discuss this issue through that lens. Is it a math lens? An academic lens, a spiritual Lens, a relational lens. How is it we're looking at this and let's meet them there and talk through the angle on that and discuss how we're getting there. And based on the way you're looking at it, here's what's wrong with your logic and here's where you should be going, and here's what we're going to do. And about the third time that they want to come back and argue. Not asking questions is different. Real questions is different than arguing.

George Kamel (33:52)

And you can tell, but you can.

Dave Ramsey (33:54)

Everybody, a listener can tell. Everybody's going, this guy's arguing, this guy's arguing with Jade. This is dangerous. Don't argue with Jade.

George Kamel (34:02)

That's a good move. You can argue with me and I'll go toe to toe. Because some of these people, they want to come at you with math when it's really an emotional peace decision which comes into this next question. Dave, you were on Iced Coffee hour with Graham and Jack, and one recommendation you've been consistent on is if it's investment proper property, I only pay cash. I'm not gonna leverage and go into the real estate business. You've tried that before, famously. And that's part of your origin story. And here's a quote that you said. Debt is a more effective way to grow fast if that's your goal. But what people leave out of the discussion is that you've increased your risk exponentially. I run a 100% debt free portfolio, and so I have virtually zero pressure to make a property inordinately perform in a stressful situation. That's a lot of big words. I was impressed.

Dave Ramsey (34:47)

Okay, thank you.

George Kamel (34:48)

That was it. I just wanted to run that by you, see how that hit you. But do you still feel that way after they asked you, would you take out a billion dollar loan at 0% interest and all these sort of funny hypotheticals. Where does this come from?

Dave Ramsey (35:02)

Well, we're friends with Jack and Graham, but we all know that they just borrow up to their freaking eyeballs. They just, they never didn't. They're like young Kiyosakis. I mean, they just borrow.

George Kamel (35:14)

They lean more that way.

Dave Ramsey (35:15)

They just borrow.

George Kamel (35:16)

Leverage, leverage, leverage, borrow, borrow.

Dave Ramsey (35:18)

And so they always like coming in and asking me these questions because they're just to a see if there's one little crack in the armor, like I might be just a little bit inconsistent. And they're somewhat entertained and they think they're entertaining their audience.

George Kamel (35:30)

It gets a lot of views when they get to throw a gotcha at you.

Dave Ramsey (35:33)

Yeah, but it's not a gotcha. It's what, you know. Cause there's no gotcha. Because they didn't get you. They didn't get you. I wasn't got, you know, so it was. You know, we love them, they're sweet kids, but they just. They're just wrong.

George Kamel (35:48)

Take that, Graham. No. You know, what I found is that you've actually been getting in there. You've been living in their head, rent free.

Dave Ramsey (35:54)

Oh, wow.

George Kamel (35:54)

Because Graham recently, he's selling off a lot of his property. And he said these words, I'm trying to solve for peace. And I went, the man who's a human spreadsheet said, there is more to this than math. The hassle factor.

Dave Ramsey (36:06)

You gotta watch. They've been hanging around inside this building a lot. And the more you hang around, I'm worried about them.

George Kamel (36:10)

I'm scared they're gonna become debt free one day.

Dave Ramsey (36:12)

Peace will rub off on you.

George Kamel (36:13)

We're gonna see Graham and Jack on the debt free stage.

Dave Ramsey (36:15)

Once you see somebody that has peace and you can feel the spirit of God and you feel peace off of someone, then you want it. Yeah.

George Kamel (36:23)

And again, it's more than math. And it's why we tell people, yeah, still pay off your mortgage, even if it's a low interest rate. That's one of the biggest arguments we've had on the show lately. Why would I do that?

Dave Ramsey (36:34)

More than math is a correct terminology. But it's like, to look at finance only through the lens of math is extremely naive. You're leaving out all the implications in your life of this mathematical decision, the relational, the spiritual. How does it affect your career? How does it affect your decision making? And I don't think people realize. I know they don't. A lot of people don't realize that when you're in debt here, it affects a decision over there that you didn't even think about. Like you'll keep a toxic job because you got payments when you could have probably accelerated your career if you had solved for peace. And you went, you know, I don't really have to work here. It's a changed thing. I mean, we did a deal many years ago when Fox, when this business first started, Cavuto and Kevin called, and the guy was first president of Fox Business and offered us a Fox Business Show. And I told him, I said, our audience is young. Our audience wants basic stuff. If you want super sophisticated finance or you want a bunch of political right wing stuff, we're not your guy. Or if you want me to Do a show that caters to 65 year olds. We're not your show. They said, no, we want that young audience. So they gave us a primetime show, three year contract and we shot the show here in Nashville. They said, well, you got to come to New York. And I'm like, no, I live in Nashville and not living in New York. And they're like, okay, you call me. Remember I didn't call you. Yeah, okay. And so we put cameras in down here. We had a studio there. We were all connected by fiber. We shot the show every day. It aired at 7:00 at night in prime time. Did really well the first six months. Blew up all the ratings. Everything was great. It was basically me taking calls like the radio show or like the podcast today. The other shows on there, some of them were doing good, some of them weren't, but they, they had a really, what I thought was a good morning news show. And they fired everybody and brought in Don Imus. And Don was 75 or 80 years old or something. And they brought him in. And so his audience is 75 or 80 years old at the time. He's passed away since. But he was an iconic talk radio guy back in the day. So that demographic went down, I mean, went up, the age went way up. And so I've got these young people at night, he's got the old people in the mornings and everything else is all scrambled. Well, pretty soon they're just all in. Pretty much fox, it's 55 year old white guys are their audience. Everything's a walk in bathtub and a Snuggie commercial, right? And so, you know, it's basically catering to oxygen tank demographic, right? And so CPAPs and reverse mortgages. And so they start calling me and going, hey, you got to change what you're doing. Because our whole audience has shifted. And you know, they left you. I'm like, no, they didn't leave me. You left me. And so all of this to say after two years, I'm talking to Kevin every third day and he's like, you got to start doing politics. I'm like, no, I'm not doing politics, not what I do. And you gotta start doing this. No, I'm not doing that. And I said, look, here's what you need to do, Kevin, you gotta fire me.

George Kamel (39:48)

Oh, you asked to be fired?

Dave Ramsey (39:50)

He said, what do you mean? I said, well, I'm not gonna do what you say. And the way you've taken this station, this network, I'm not fitting in. And I'M not gonna change. And so if I were in your shoes, I would fire me. And he goes, this is the weirdest conversation I've ever had with talent. And I said, well, dude, I'm not looking for a job.

George Kamel (40:13)

You're not desperate.

Dave Ramsey (40:14)

I didn't need the money. And I said, by the way, you're going to pay me the whole contract anyway. You're going to pay me the money anyway because that's what you said you were going to do. And I'm keeping all the equipment because that's what it said, too. And he goes, yeah, that's what our deal said. And I said, yeah, so fire me, and I'll just pay me. And then all this problem of you worrying about my show not working goes away and you can put another show on that caters to old white people and you'll have a great show and that'll be great. And he goes, this is the weirdest conversation, but I solved for peace 20 years before I had this whole conversation. And I didn't need ego to be on. I didn't need money.

George Kamel (40:50)

You didn't need one more deal because you weren't living.

Dave Ramsey (40:52)

And when it didn't work, it didn't work anymore. And guess what? There are still people that think I'm on Fox Business 20 years after I've been off. Wow. You know they still own Fox Business. No, you don't. Not on Fox Business. I don't hate Fox Business. I go on as a guest. But Coleman goes on all the time. But it's fine. But my show was an abject failure. It was horrible. I'm really bad at tv, by the way. But I'm like. I had solved for peace. I didn't need a job. So it affected my career choice. A, I'm not living in New York, B, because I'm not gonna live in New York. B, I don't have to try to beg or change my principles or change who we are. And the consequence was more prosperity came after getting fired. Wow. Because I didn't change. I didn't change.

George Kamel (41:47)

And that consistency is what caused success.

Dave Ramsey (41:50)

Exactly. And you can only have that if you're not. But if I had payments coming out my ears and I needed that money.

George Kamel (41:56)

You'Re desperate for that.

Dave Ramsey (41:57)

Then I would be talking Republican politics, I guess, right now on Fox Business. Right.

George Kamel (42:00)

You'd be doing a song and dance.

Dave Ramsey (42:02)

Doing the little be one of their other little thingies that does that every.

George Kamel (42:06)

Day, you know, I'm glad you're not. Well, what do you say? To the idea that your advice is designed for people who are trying to clean up a mess and that anyone who's, quote, good with money should follow a more sophisticated plan.

Dave Ramsey (42:20)

Well, if there was a more sophisticated plan that had a track record working like ours, that would be an argument. But otherwise, what it is is a snobby aristocratic statement of somebody that doesn't want to pay a prize to win. So, no, it's not. You know, let me tell you what sophisticated is. Sophisticated is something that works regardless of how complicated or how simple it is. And some of the most profound sophisticated things are very easy and simple to understand. The law of gravity is pretty profound. Try arguing with it, you know. You know, it really doesn't go well for you. So now it's not, you know, that's just bull crap. So, you know, like, okay, you got a degree in finance, so you're smarter than the law of gravity. No, you're not. You're still going to get your freaking head taken off. I have more letters and licenses after my name and degrees and crap when I went broke than anybody on the planet. And the only thing I didn't have was a PhD, and now I have a PhD in dumb. But this idea that somehow there's, you know, this is for simpletons. Well, maybe, but, you know, what we found is 80, 90% of millionaires in America today did what we're teaching, even if they weren't following us. And so that's common sense. Yeah. It's like they live on less than they make. They have a plan, they stay out of debt. You know, and they didn't. There's no, like, there's one little club over here of people that the law of gravity doesn't apply to. Bull. Of course it does.

George Kamel (43:50)

Yeah. Complexity doesn't equal superior.

Dave Ramsey (43:53)

Matter of fact, it generally equals less.

George Kamel (43:55)

Well, you look at, you know, like an indexed universal life policy. Well, those are complex and they're a terrible product.

Dave Ramsey (44:00)

Oh, horrible.

George Kamel (44:02)

So that goes to show you, you can just be in a 401k and become a millionaire and most likely will put it on snooze, be the average investor and get there. That's good. Another thing you've been consistent on is hating the big banks out there. You've railed against, you know, bank of America and Capital One. And some people, you know, had a head tilt when we announced, hey, it's the Ramsey show in the Fairwinds Credit Union studio. And they went, I thought, Dave hates credit. So can you help dispel some myths around Here.

Dave Ramsey (44:30)

Well, I don't want my money under a mattress. I have a bank. Y' all didn't think I didn't have a bank.

George Kamel (44:38)

I mean, I thought it was like a Scrooge McDuck situation. There's a big pile of coins somewhere to pool.

Dave Ramsey (44:43)

You have at the house in my basement, there's. I look like a drug dealer. I have shrink wrapped hundreds. I mean, what?

George Kamel (44:50)

No, I mean, someone accused you of that. I think it was on Fox. They're like, well, Dave, you have, you.

Dave Ramsey (44:55)

Know, that would have been Cabooto, probably. Kavuta always teased me about that. But no, I don't.

George Kamel (45:00)

You do have a pretty thick money clip that you carry.

Dave Ramsey (45:03)

Yeah, I carry cash, but it's not. My net worth is certainly not tied up in my money clip. And so this idea that I don't utilize a bank, I don't borrow money from anyone, including banks. But I have several banks that we do business with and they provide things like checking and debit cards and a place to have a high yield savings account and, you know, banking services, online services. And I probably have, I don't know, 10 different banks that we do business with at Ramsey and personally in different settings and even a few in another country. And so, you know, that's. But whoopty doopty. I mean, that doesn't so. And I've always endorsed credit unions the entire time. I've been on the air for 30 years. And so now I have a Fair Winds Credit union, which is a very consumer friendly, wonderful bunch of people. And the product lines are aligned exactly with what we teach. And so I don't know, I don't know what somebody's looking for there. It's like, you know, I guess they just really weren't paying attention and they just went like, oh, anything.

George Kamel (46:11)

They saw the word credit and thought, Dave loves debt now.

Dave Ramsey (46:14)

Or they saw the word bank, and now Dave loves banks. And so I've never hated all banks or all credit unions. I've hated certain ones. And it's simply because they just are mean and nasty to the consumer. They're hard to work with. The way bank of America treats the customer, why anyone would stay there is beyond me.

George Kamel (46:32)

Just convenience, I guess.

Dave Ramsey (46:33)

Third man sits there to piss on you just to say they did. Oh, yeah, it's awful. No. Why would you do business with that? I'm not doing business with that.

George Kamel (46:40)

Yeah. There are good guys out there and Fair Winds is one of them.

Dave Ramsey (46:43)

Yeah. And, you know, just because you have. Just because of Churchill Mortgage does Mortgages doesn't mean I'm inconsistent, because I don't take out a mortgage. I've endorsed Churchill mortgage for 30 years.

George Kamel (46:55)

That's good. I hope that clears the air. Haters.

Dave Ramsey (46:58)

Well, they don't. Haters aren't. Haters are going to hate.

George Kamel (47:01)

They're definitely watching this. They love to hate. Watch is what I call it.

Dave Ramsey (47:03)

Oh, really?

George Kamel (47:04)

Yeah.

Dave Ramsey (47:05)

Why?

George Kamel (47:05)

I don't know. I truly don't. Why wouldn't you find programming that you would.

Dave Ramsey (47:09)

I was talking to somebody the other day that was a guy that. Two guys that were in a conversation. One of them was a billionaire, and one of them was worth several hundred million. And I asked both of them, I said, you guys run around with guys like you? And they said, yeah. I said, how many of your friends post in the comments section on anything? And they said, what's that?

George Kamel (47:26)

They didn't even know it existed. They're like, people leave comments on things.

Dave Ramsey (47:29)

On the successful people do not take their time to bother other people. That's interesting.

George Kamel (47:36)

That's the lesson learned. I've always thought that I mentioned that.

Dave Ramsey (47:39)

On the number of times I've left a comment on something is zero.

George Kamel (47:42)

You've commented on, I think, two of my Instagram posts.

Dave Ramsey (47:44)

Well, that's Instagram posts. I'm helping George out there, trying to.

George Kamel (47:48)

That's right.

Dave Ramsey (47:49)

But, you know, I'll say something positive about one of my friends posting his grandkid or whatever.

George Kamel (47:55)

But you're not, you know, spreading hate.

Dave Ramsey (47:56)

But I'm not sitting in there going, trying to have an argument in the DMs. I'm gonna drop in. Whatever that is. I'm not doing it.

George Kamel (48:04)

Have you thought about it, though?

Dave Ramsey (48:05)

Because I think people would be tickled.

George Kamel (48:07)

To find you in the comment section. Like, did Dave really. Is he jumping in on this?

Dave Ramsey (48:11)

No. The closest I ever did was when Twitter was new. It was like a running comment section. The whole thing was like a comment. Everybody's just arguing. Twitter was fun. You could argue with people and that was fun. But it was not me going to Sean Ryan's site or Tucker Carlson's site.

George Kamel (48:28)

And going, I hate this.

Dave Ramsey (48:29)

You know, I hate you, and I used to like you, and now you're awful. And they don't even read that stuff. Why are you bothering? Yeah, go do something with your own life. Hello? Sorry.

George Kamel (48:40)

Sorry, Dave. One second. Hello, Mom, Are you there? Oh, my gosh, another butt dial. But you know what? No big deal. She's got Boost Mobile. She's got unlimited talk text and data for just 25 bucks a month, forever. That's their unlimited plan. And there's 99% nationwide coverage, which means there's a slim chance the butt dial would drop the call. And that means you can scroll stream and group chat to your heart's content without playing the how much data do I have left Game. And the best part is there's no contracts, no price increases ever. So stop overpaying and head to boostmobile.com Ramsey or click the link in the description below. All right, back to Dave. Well, I want to end our time together with a fun new segment that's kind of one liners to fill in the blank game. So I'm going to read a sentence. You fill in the blank with whatever comes to mind first. One thing that would surprise people about Dave Ramsey's last bank statement is my personal checking account. If I looked at it like, man, this guy, he loves tacos. What would be the thing that stands out to me?

Dave Ramsey (49:41)

Okay, that's fair, man.

George Kamel (49:42)

He does a lot of hunting, a lot of hunting gear on this statement.

Dave Ramsey (49:46)

Yeah, he buys a lot of guns or something like that. I don't know.

George Kamel (49:50)

Yeah, that'd be on there. All right. People will win with money in 2026 if they.

Dave Ramsey (49:57)

Pay attention.

George Kamel (50:00)

Just pay attention.

Dave Ramsey (50:01)

Winning is not an accidental act.

George Kamel (50:03)

Intentionality. The biggest lie about success is.

Dave Ramsey (50:09)

That it's caused by a singular event.

George Kamel (50:12)

You're a death by a thousand cuts.

Dave Ramsey (50:13)

Kind of guy everybody is that's ever won. Success is a pile of garbage. It's all the mistakes you made. You're just standing on it instead of laying under it. Michael Jordan talks about all the shots he missed. Babe Ruth talked about all the time he struck out. Success is always that. And there's not a singular. I keep waiting on someone to come along. I keep telling these people in our space, young podcasters and all, they're like, quit looking for one thing to make this easy. Just do it every day. Do the right thing every day. Turn the stinking microphone on, get in front of it, do your job. Do your job every day and you'll wake up in 20 years and you're an overnight success. But nobody's going to come along and go, ding, now you're Elvis. Doesn't happen that way.

George Kamel (51:01)

I'll still dream about it. Someone is definitely secretly broke if they large car payments. And it's hard to tell when you turn your head at the stoplight to know if they have a payment.

Dave Ramsey (51:14)

They almost.

George Kamel (51:14)

You can pet they do.

Dave Ramsey (51:15)

You can tell they do.

George Kamel (51:17)

The future belongs to people who have hope, optimism. The glass is half full. If he had to start from zero again, the first thing Dave Ramsey would.

Dave Ramsey (51:30)

Do is create an income.

George Kamel (51:33)

I have no fear that you would be able to do that.

Dave Ramsey (51:35)

By the way, I've always been able to make money. I just was able to keep it.

George Kamel (51:39)

I think the first one's more important. You gotta make money to keep it. So we can figure the second part out.

Dave Ramsey (51:44)

I made a lot of money and went broke in my 20s. You know the story. So. Yeah, but yeah, since I was 12, I could make money. So go create an income. But now I know what to do with it. And very quickly.

George Kamel (51:56)

You could rebuild fast.

Dave Ramsey (51:57)

Real quickly.

George Kamel (51:58)

All right, last one. Money is.

Dave Ramsey (52:02)

Options. Gives you options.

George Kamel (52:07)

I couldn't have ended it any better. Dave Ramsey, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dave Ramsey (52:11)

That was fun. George, thanks.

George Kamel (52:13)

Huge thanks to Dave for joining me in studio today. If you enjoyed this conversation, you're gonna love his appearance on Millionaires and Cars Getting Coffee, which you can watch next by clicking right here or using the link in the description. Thanks for watching. We'll see you guys next time. Bryan Cranston.