Harvard Professor Reveals the Real Reason We Keep Making Dumb Money Decisions

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Harvard Professor Reveals the Real Reason We Keep Making Dumb Money Decisions"

Host: George Kamel (Ramsey Network)
Guest: Dr. Arthur Brooks (Harvard Professor, Happiness Expert)
Date: March 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, George Kamel sits down for a candid and illuminating conversation with Dr. Arthur Brooks, a renowned Harvard professor, happiness expert, and bestselling author. Together, they dig into the emotional roots behind poor money decisions, the misconceptions about capitalism and wealth, the impact of comparison and technology on happiness, and practical guidance for passing on values and wealth to the next generation. Bringing humor and warmth, the episode tackles complex ideas around psychology, money habits, and human fulfillment—ultimately spotlighting why knowing about smart money moves isn’t enough to actually do them.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why We Make Bad Money Decisions

• Emotional Self-Management
  • Dr. Brooks argues that most “dumb” money decisions stem from a lack of emotional self-management.

    "The main reason that people are still doing dumb things with their money is because they're not emotionally self managing is what it comes down to." (Dr. Brooks, 00:05)

  • Emotions are not mysterious—they are signals and data that should be processed, not obeyed blindly.
• The Limbic System vs. Prefrontal Cortex
  • We have ancient brain wiring (the limbic system) that interprets threats and opportunities.
  • Good decisions come from using the emotion-driven signals as data in the rational parts of brain (the “C-suite,” i.e., the prefrontal cortex).

    "If you're not self managing, if you're a reactive person, if you're acting according to the emotions, you're in the space of animal instinct... But you have a choice." (Dr. Brooks, 05:09-06:04)

• Habits and Delayed Gratification
  • Building financial habits is difficult at first but becomes easier with repetition, drawing a parallel to how workouts turn into routines.

    "By about seven weeks… it becomes a habit and you think less about it." (Dr. Brooks, 07:21)

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2. The Appeal of Money-Related Content, Debt, and Schadenfreude

• People watch street interviews about debt because they intuitively understand debt's burden, seek encouragement, and desire to see others in similar situations.

  "People want this content because they wanna get fired up... and they… take a little bit of schadenfreude, a little bit of pleasure in somebody who's in the same kind of pickle that they are." (Dr. Brooks, 01:37)

• Comparison can be comforting but is ultimately “scant comfort.”
  • Spanish expression: “Mal de muchos consuelo de tontos” — 'the misfortune of many is only the consolation of fools.' (Dr. Brooks, 02:45)

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3. Capitalism, Opportunity, and Privilege

• The Myth of the Finite Pie
  • Many believe success and wealth are finite, but Brooks describes this as a natural but incorrect mindset.
  • The real miracle, he says, is that the pie can expand—capitalism and free enterprise have massively reduced global poverty.

  "The finite pie is a fiction, but it's naturally the way we're wired to think... but that's not correct." (Dr. Brooks, 08:14)

• The Dark Side of Capitalism
  • The true dark side is not competition, but its subversion: cronyism, manipulation of rules, etc.

  "Whenever people talk about how capitalism or free enterprise are bad, they're talking about people subverting capitalism. It's not capitalism per se." (Dr. Brooks, 10:10)

• Privilege and Intergenerational Wealth
  • It’s healthy to build a better life for your children—but only if you pass on values as well as money.

  "You should pay for all the investment in your kids' lives you possibly can. And you should pay for none of the consumption by the time they're adults." (Dr. Brooks, 12:28)

  • Distinction:
    • Investment: education, stake in a business, assets that build capability.
    • Consumption: discretionary spending for comfort or fun.

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4. Comparison, Technology, and Modern Unhappiness

• Comparison is the Thief of Joy
  • Teddy Roosevelt’s famous quote is discussed in the context of constant comparison via social media.
  • Study: 74% of young people say it’s harder for their generation to achieve happiness—Brooks disagrees, saying it’s not harder, just less automatic due to changes in how we use our brains.

    "It's not harder to achieve happiness, but it's less automatic. And those are two different things." (Dr. Brooks, 16:57)

• Technology’s Role
  • Overstimulation and constant connectivity mean we are never bored moment to moment, but lead to lives that are, ironically, more boring and less meaningful.

    "We solved the problem of boredom and actually created boring lives." (Dr. Brooks, 19:52)

• Spiritual Thriving
  • Previous generations found meaning effortlessly through family and productive work; today, meaning must be intentionally cultivated.

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5. The Five Things You Can Do With Money

Dr. Brooks’ List: Everyone’s money ultimately goes into these “baskets”:

1. Buy Stuff – Tangible goods and possessions.
2. Buy Experiences – Intangibles like travel or meals with loved ones.
3. Buy Time – Outsourcing tasks or paying for services to free up personal time.
4. Give It Away – Charity, philanthropy, helping others.
5. Save/Invest – Setting aside or growing wealth for the future.

Only the first (buying stuff) doesn’t contribute directly to happiness; the others, used well, reliably do.

"All the other doors bring happiness if you use them right... Saving it is like so great for happiness. So great because that's a marker of progress." (Dr. Brooks, 26:42-27:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Arthur Brooks on Emotions and Decisions:

  "Emotions are not mysterious. Emotions are signals, emotions are data." (00:05)

• On Comparison Content:

  "People want this content because they wanna get fired up… and maybe take a little bit of schadenfreude." (01:37)

• On Intergenerational Wealth:

  "You should pay for all the investment in your kids' lives you possibly can. And you should pay for none of the consumption by the time they're adults." (12:28)

• On Capitalism’s Real Issue:

  "The dark side of capitalism is that we don’t actually practice capitalism. That’s the dark side." (09:55)

• On Modern Life & Boredom:

  "Today, people are using their brains wrong such that they’re never bored moment to moment. But their lives are boring. We solved the problem of boredom and actually created boring lives." (19:52)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:05 – Dr. Brooks on emotional self-management and decision-making
• 01:37 – Why people watch debt/confession content
• 03:50 – How information & habits intersect; the brain science of emotion
• 07:53 – Discussing the myth of the finite pie and wealth gaps
• 09:55 – The underbelly of capitalism: cronyism vs. true meritocracy
• 12:28 – The right way to pass on intergenerational wealth
• 16:34 – Comparison and the “thief of joy”; social science insights
• 19:52 – The dangers of constant stimulation & creating boring lives
• 21:27 – Five things you can do with money (and which bring real happiness)

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Tone & Style

The conversation is lively, warm, and direct, peppered with pop culture, relatable analogies, and playful banter (including references to Dora the Explorer, and Dr. Brooks’ haircuts). Dr. Brooks blends scientific rigor with stories and humor, keeping the depth of the content accessible.

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Conclusion

This episode demystifies why smart people make foolish money choices, revealing the hidden architecture of our brains, emotions, and habits. It dispels myths about comparison, capitalism, and privilege, and offers actionable guidance for finding happiness in spending, giving, and saving money—rooted in self-management, not just knowledge.

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Dr. Arthur Brooks’ new book, "The Meaning of Your Life," releases March 31. For more, visit themeaningofyourlife.com.

Transcript

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

The main reason that people are still doing dumb things with their money is because they're not emotionally self managing is what it comes down to. And a lot of people get to adulthood and they've never learned how to manage their emotions. Emotions are not mysterious. Emotions are signals, emotions are data. Today people are using their brains wrong such that they're never bored moment to moment. But their lives are boring. The lack of that stimulation, being in your head, having real conversations, talking to ordinary people, having an ordinary life that leads to a lot of moment to moment boredom and a very interesting life. We solved the problem of boredom and actually created boring lives.

[George]

Like we know we should probably invest and stay out of debt. Why don't we do that when we have all the information?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

So,

[George]

well, you know what they say, mo money, mo problems. Except no one has said that in years. But today I'm joined by the one guy who can explain why more money doesn't always equal more happiness. And that is Harvard professor and happiness expert, Dr. Arthur Brooks. He's a best selling author and certified delightful human being. And you guys loved his last two conversations on this channel. So we brought him back for a three peat. So without further ado, let's get into it. And be sure to hit that like and subscribe button and shout out to delete me for sponsoring this channel. So Arthur, we've had a series on this channel where we ask people how much debt they have. I go on the streets, we ask strangers, would you talk to us about money? And they somehow respond. So as a social scientist with a PhD, why do you think people enjoy watching this content?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

They like watching this content because they know in their hearts what they want for their own lives. And they have an intuitive understanding that debt is something that brings you down. Now people take debt because they want a temporary boost. There's lots of things that we do for a temporary boost. I mean, drinking and taking drugs and all kinds of things give you a temporary boost. And a lot of it's innocuous. I mean, you know, drinking coffee right now, that's not because we're gonna be permanently better as a result of it. We want something that's temporary stimulant, a temporary stimulant. And that's what debt actually is, is a temporary stimulant. But people know there's a long term hangover and they wish they didn't have it. So people want this content because they wanna get fired up. They wanna be encouraged by actually seeing other people who aren't in debt and they Maybe take a little bit of schadenfreude, a little bit of pleasure in somebody who's in the same kind of pickle that they are.

[George]

I was gonna bring up that word. You can.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Schadenfreude. It's like that.

[George]

I wanted to know, is that what this is? Is it this voyeurism that makes yourself feel better because you're sort of reveling in other people's pain?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, a little bit. Well, it's also. It helps when you're in a little bit of pain to know that you're not alone. So that's not exactly schadenfreude.

[George]

It's not as dark as I want to make it out to be.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, but, you know, the problem is that that's scant comfort in real life. There's an expression in Spanish, mal de muchos con suelo de tontos. And that means the misfortune of many is only the consolation of fools.

[George]

Oh, that's good. I need to watch more Dora the expl. Are they teaching that on there?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

They're not teaching that on Dora the Explorer.

[George]

Dora's getting deep.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Dora's getting, like, all philosophical.

[George]

That's good.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah.

[George]

So that's at the heart of this. There's a lot of emotions, but at the heart of it is there's a bit of comparison and there's a bit of fuel for my own journey.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

It makes you. There's a lot of things that are going into it. Number one is that I want to be encouraged. The second thing is if I have less debt, I feel better about myself. And the third thing is if I'm in a lot of debt, I want to feel like I'm not alone and other people are suffering it as well. So it's a pretty complex. There's a complex set of reasons for wanting to see this content.

[George]

Nailed it. Just psychoanalyzed our top performing content.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Right, There we go.

[George]

So we are in the information age. We can watch all the content in the world. We can type anything into AI. It will give us the perfect answer. And yet creating the good habits is still difficult. Like, we know we should probably invest and stay out of debt. Why don't we do that when we have all the information?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

So we have a limbic system. And the limbic system is a console of tissue that was evolved between 2 and 40 million years ago. And what it does is it mediates between the parts of the brain, the most primitive parts of the brain that are older than that, that gather signals about the outside environment that tell you that there are threats and opportunities out there. You sense a threat, whatever it happens to be, that's in the back of your head. The primitive stuff is the brain stem and the spinal column. And that's all the involuntary information that you're getting that's fed into this limbic system and it's turned into emotions. So emotions happen to you on the basis of what you're perceiving. Negative emotions say there's a threat. Positive emotions say there's an opportunity. Now I realize I've just eviscerated all the content of country and western music ever written. Cause you know, it's like you done my limbic system wrong, baby.

[George]

All the things that went wrong.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, but it's not mysterious. Emotions are not mysterious. Emotions are signals, Emotions are data. Now what you're supposed to do with those emotional data is not act according to them. You're supposed to send them to the human part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex, right behind your forehead. That's brand new. That's 250,000 years old, like the late Pleistocene. And that's 40% of your brain by weight. Actually 30% of your brain by weight. That's a lot. That's your supercomputer. And you're supposed to use the data that you're getting from your outside context.

[George]

That's like the processing chip.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, but this is the C suite. This is the C suite of your brain. And you need data to make good decisions about the business of your life. So that's what emotions are supposed to do, is to provide information to your executive centers of your brain right behind your forehead to make all of these particular decisions. That's a really important thing to keep in mind. And people are managing this all day long. They're trying to manage these signals. They're trying to. And the people who are least self managing are being managed by their limbic systems. Okay, so here's the point. If you're not self managing, if you're a reactive person, if you're acting according to the emotions, you're in the space of animal instinct and animal instinct, animal impulse. Man is super powerful. But you have a choice. You can live an animal impulse, that's easy. Or you can live according to your moral aspirations, where you act according to how you want to act, notwithstanding your feelings. And that takes a lot of work.

[George]

That's like delayed gratification, discipline.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

That's like acting out of love. When you don't feel love, that's when you feel avoidance toward Your spouse, you practice, approach all those things. Being the person that you want to be means you need to feel the feelings and act the way that you want. And that's a skill. That's the most important skill that I teach. But that's hard. That actually takes work. And a lot of people get to adulthood and they've never learned how to manage their emotions. The main reason that people are still doing dumb things with their money again and again and again and again is because they're not emotionally self managing is what it comes down to. And emotional self management is the beginning of having a balanced checkbook and no debt.

[George]

Wow. So we need to oust the CEO up here making the terrible decisions.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

No, the problem is the CEOs not getting the data and can't make any decisions. The whole point is you gotta send the information to your prefrontal cortex and allow the prefrontal cortex to do its work. And that's, that's a technique in behavioral science called metacognition. Thinking about thinking. And that actually is a whole set of techniques that people can engage in. But it takes practice and work and skill and time. Wow.

[George]

Dave said it simply. Personal finance is 20% head knowledge. It's 80% behavior.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. That's what it comes down to.

[George]

You know, the hard part is doing it.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

And then habits, that involves the work, then habits. And then habits. And what you do is the better you get at it, the more that it becomes a habit and less it becomes something that you have to, you know, spend time and effort thinking about it. It's like working out. By the way, when you first start going to the gym, it's like, oh, it's 4:45 in the morning, what am I doing? And the data show that by about seven weeks, in six to seven weeks, 40 to 50 days. If you're doing it four days a week, it becomes a habit and you think less about it. And then you have to, you have less cognitive bandwidth. You have to dedicate to it, and you can spend your time improving your life in other ways.

[George]

Well, let's talk about this comparison angle here. There are people out there who believe success is sort of a finite pie. If other people get more money, that means I have less. What is your take on the growing wealth gap? Is it actually happening? It seems like the rich are getting richer and the folks that are broke, it's getting harder and harder to climb out.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. So the finite pie is a fiction, but it's naturally the way that we're wired to think. We're wired to think that there's a finite pie because just around us you've got a pile of rocks. There's not going to be a bigger pile of rocks spontaneously. And so you have to you divvy stuff up. And so people naturally think that if I have more, somebody else has less and vice versa. That that is not correct. But it's a more complex thinking process to understand that you can actually, the more creative you are, the more hardworking you are, the more you can generate a larger pie. That's called the free enterprise system economically. And that's the great miracle that's actually changed the world. I mean, the world between 1970 and today is fundamentally different. 80% of the world's worst poverty has been eradicated. Dollar a day poverty, starvation level poverty. 80% has been eradicated. Most people don't know that. And the reason is capitalism. The reason is the free markets is the free market system that has been spreading around the world. That is America's gift to the world, bar none. And by the way, we didn't like impose that. But people around the world started to look at Americans like, I want that. I want that freedom, I want that prosperity. I want it right. And to the extent that we don't share that, we don't fight for the free enterprise system. We're actually not sticking up for the poor. We cannot solve world poverty through UN programs. It can't be done. I got nothing against UN programs, but we need to spread the values of freedom, to expand the pie, to get out of the fixed mindset. That's what we actually need to do.

[George]

Okay, so capitalism isn't all evil. There's the bright side of capitalism that has led us to all this innovation and success. And then there's the underbelly, which is the stuff that you're talking about. We're not doing a lot of the good stuff that capitalism could do.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Well, yeah, I mean, the dark side of capitalism is that we don't actually practice capitalism. That's the dark side of capitalism is that we torque it and we become cronies and we get better lawyers and lobbyists and regulators that can actually turn competition into a system of rules that favors us. The truth is that real competition is always good. Real competition in politics is called democracy. Real competition on university campuses is called ideas. You know, that's really, really what we want. But real competition in sports means that the Yankees show up and have their best team to play the Red Sox. And the best team wins. And that's why we love it, it's not the Red Sox trying to blow up the Yankees bus on the way to the game. It's meritocracy. That's actually the opposite of competition. So whenever people talk about how capitalism or free enterprise are bad, they're talking about people subverting capitalism. It's not capitalism per se. So what we want is we gotta fight for actual competition, such that people at the margins, poor people, people who don't have advantages, people who grew up without a lot, like you, you're able to rise on the basis of your hard work, merit and personal responsibility. That's the system that almost everybody wants, but that people don't understand. And that's what we gotta talk about. That means a fair system of rules. And then all of us working so everybody's got tons of opportunity.

[George]

Well, that brings up the word privilege. In my mind. It's been sort of villainized of say, well, must be nice, you've got privilege.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Right.

[George]

And do you think that's something that we should be giving our kids into the next generations? You know, every parent wants a better life than they had.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, that's right. And that's a very, very normal thing to have. And reasonable people disagree about that. I personally think that passing on intergenerational wealth can be a really good thing, but only if you're passing on the thing that makes it good, which is values. You know, the whole point is you can really mess up your kids if

[George]

it's just a number in a bank account. They're screwed.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, I mean if you're actually. And you know, people of very high net worth talk to me about this a lot. So I grew up in our family was. My parents grew up very working class. We grew up lower middle class. My dad was a college professor, but in those days in little liberal arts college, you know, and my mom stayed at home, she was an artist. And my dad drove a bus in the summertime when I was a little kid. And it was like a different time. Right. We're poor, you know, the whole thing. And then in this generation things are better. And my kids grew up very differently than I grew up is the whole point. But looking at this and working with very high net worth people, people very, very rich, one of the things that I find is they make a lot of mistakes, which is they want to create comfort for their kids. Now you don't want to put barriers in your kids way, but here's the iron law. You should pay for all the investment in your kids lives you possibly can. And you should pay for none of the consumption by the time they're adults.

[George]

So define those two. Investment versus consumption.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Consumption or discretionary expenses that have to do with comfort and fun and entertainment and leisure.

[George]

So that's. You put that under lifestyle.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, pretty much. And so should you pay for your kids college? Yeah, if you can. Should you pay for graduate school even though you find it of dubious value? Yeah, if you can. Should you stake their business? Yeah, if you can. You don't think it's a stupid business or harmful. Should you pay help them with a down payment on their house? Well, now we're into the gray zone. Now we have to decide that and that requires prudential judgment. Should you pay for their wine closet? Nope. Should you pay for their boat? Absolutely not. Their Europe vacation? Are you insane? So these are the things that we. Now why is this, by the way? Because your kids aren't stupid. And they know if you're investing in them as an asset or whether you're managing them as a liability, and that's a really important thing.

[George]

And then they see that and they go, well, I want to steward this.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Well, yeah, well. And basically what you say and what I recommend to families that are actually doing really well for the first time in the first generation is if you want to pass on intergenerational wealth, you better establish the basis and values for something like, okay, why do we have all this? Because look kids, I'm going to croak before you, God willing and probably before mom. So here's how we think. We want mom to stay in the house in however she wants to live for the rest of her life. And that's going to be expensive, right? Probably we will die when you're old enough that you're not going to have enough money that you can stop working anyway. So you're going to have to work anyway. And the goal is that nobody's a drain on society from our family ever. And occasionally somebody in the family might want to do something like be in public service or run a non profit. And so we can finance that as a family. This is a family thing. This is what we need. My thinking, George, on this has really changed since I started working with European families of generational wealth versus American families.

[George]

What do they do differently in Europe?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

They don't consider the money to be theirs. Oh, they don't. It's like not my money, I'm taking care of it in this generation.

[George]

It's truly a stewardship mentality.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

And the whole point is that our family is, is Generative and helpful to society in ways that people who are poorer they would like to be, but they can't be. And so our job is to actually be philanthropic. But our job is also to make sure that we're never a drain on society in any way. And that means that it should grow in my lifetime.

[George]

You're a net positive on society.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, yeah. So that's a good way to think about it, but that's way less about money and way more about values.

[George]

We'll get back to the conversation in just a sec. And listen, I don't like to compare financial journeys. I don't think that's helpful. But I do think we should be comparing banks. And here's the thing. Most big banks are great at one thing. Making money off of you. Overdraft fees, confusing fine print customer service that feels like you're talking to a robot named Steve who hates you. But Fairwind's Credit Union, a sponsor of this episode, actually wants to help you reach your money goals, not just push you into debt. Their Checking and Savings bundle is designed to help you stay organized, avoid dumb fees, and make smarter financial decisions. So if you want a bank that's working with you, not against you, get that free Smart Bundle [e-mail] Ramsey and before we get back to my conversation with a happiness expert, let me tell you, one easy way to increase your happiness is lowering the number of spam calls and texts that you get. And you can do that with Deleteme, another sponsor of today's video. Here's the problem. Your personal info is floating around the Internet for data thieves to pilfer and sell to companies whose entire business model is bothering you non stop. But thankfully, Deleteme will track down your data, remove it, send you a report, and help keep it off of those sites. Just imagine how much happier you will be without the constant texts from unknown numbers asking about your extended warranty. And right now, you can get 20% off their annual plans when you go to joindeleteme.com George. All right, back to the conversation. Well, I want to talk about this scoreboard because comparison steals faster. Steals your joy faster than almost anything else.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Especially. Teddy Roosevelt purportedly said that comparison is

[George]

the thief of joy, which is an odd thing for him to say.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, I know, I know. And everybody's at Mount Rushmore comparing themselves to him.

[George]

Wow.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. That's the thief of my joy.

[George]

Well, here's a study from UCLA. 74% of young people say it's harder for their generation to achieve happiness. Than previous generations. Do you think that's true?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

No, I don't think that's true.

[George]

Are they lying on this survey?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

No, they're not lying on the survey, but they actually think that's the case because of the comparison group that they actually have. So you. The whole point is it's not harder to achieve happiness, but it's less automatic. And those are two different things. So the whole point is if you just go along and get along and go with the flow, you're going to be making a whole bunch of mistakes that are going to make happiness harder. You're going to be spending too much time on your devices. I have a book coming out that talks about how we use our brains wrong because of technology that makes it impossible for us to find the meaning of our lives. Now that's a problem. Back in the day, when my great great grandfather was alive, he just lived in a particular way where the meaning of his life was evident to him. And that's because he was using the brain the way he was supposed to. And we don't today because technology and overuse and misuse of technology has literally moved us to a part of our brain where meaning is not apparent and not even accessible, specifically the left hemisphere of our brain. So that's a really important thing. However, it's not impossible to do that. It's not even harder to do that. It's just less automatic to do that. You have to live in a particular way. And so if you're comparing yourself on social media to people all day long and you're not interacting with actual human beings and you're not paying attention to the life around you, yeah, you're going to be unhappy. You're going to be depressed and anxious and lonely. That's a fact. But that's not hard to fix. It's just not automatic.

[George]

Like, our parents clocked in, they went to work to provide for us, and that was meaning for them.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, well, providing for your family, they were. That wasn't the meaning for them. It was. They were living in such a way that the meaning was becoming apparent to them without them even thinking about it. So great Grandpa Camel never came home and said to great grandma camel, honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today.

[George]

Or a camel, we don't know in Egypt.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Is that where they were?

[George]

Yeah.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Are you Coptic?

[George]

There's a history that goes back there. Yeah.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

So you're originally Coptic Orthodox?

[George]

That would make sense. I haven't done the 23 on me

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

on that yet, but those guys are so cool.

[George]

Are they?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Oh, the Coptic Orthodox. They're unbelievable.

[George]

Well, they got the swag.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

They got the swag, but they're drinking. But they have an incredible tradition. Incredible Christian tradition. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I digress. But the whole point is he gets

[George]

excited about the Coptics.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

I got it. I mean, what's not to get excited about?

[George]

I know how to push his buttons.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

You know it. That's right. But the whole point is that, you know, that their brains were working in such a way that it would look today like great grandpa Camel was living a very boring life. And moment to moment, he experienced a lot of boredom. But at the end of his life, he didn't say, you know the problem with my life? It was so boring. No, but today people are using their brains wrong such that they're never bored moment to moment, but their lives are boring.

[George]

So a lack of constant stimulation from technology and devices equals a boring life.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. Well, no, the constant stimulation leads to the boring life. No boring moments, but a boring life. The lack of that stimulation being in your head, having real conversations, talking to ordinary people, having an ordinary life, that leads to a lot of boring moment to moment boredom and a very interesting life, a very meaningful life, as a matter of fact. And there's a lot of neuroscience behind this about why it is that great irony we solved the problem of boredom and actually created boring lives. And that's a big problem.

[George]

Is it because we went from surviving to thriving? When you look back generationally, I mean, there was no thriving. Now it's like we have a baseline. Even people who are unhoused have smartphones. Like, there is a new baseline. And so is the goal to now, like we have become so kind of bored and also cynical, maybe a little bit of nihilism, that we're just sort of giving up?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Well, we were. People were economically striving and many were spiritually thriving back in the day. And now people are not economically striving as much as they were in the past. And I'm really, really grateful for that. But there are very few people who are spiritually thriving. And that's the bigger problem. The trick has gotta be how can I thrive economically and also thrive spiritually? I mean, look, this is Ramsey Solutions, man. I mean, this is what you guys are talking about. You're talking about money, but you're not talking about money. You're talking about living a better life. And, you know, using some of these ideas as a vehicle to living a better life because you want it shouldn't be either or it should be both and is what it comes down to.

[George]

Well, you've said it was one of my favorite things you talk about. There's five things you can do with money.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. One of them is our first conversation.

[George]

Yes. I'll never forget it. Can you remind our viewers about the five things you can do with money?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. And you. It's not just five things you can do with money. You must do one of them when you have money. In other words, these are the five baskets, and your paycheck will your bank. The money in your pocket will no longer be in your pocket. It'll be in all of these five baskets, depending on your decisions. And by the way, if you don't take decisions, it'll happen automatically. Okay. Number one is you can buy stuff. You can buy stuff. You can buy the watch, you can buy the glasses, you can buy the guitar on the wall. You can buy stuff. Obviously, that's what we do with markets.

[George]

That's consumer culture.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, well, it's not just consumer culture. It's just life. Because it's not consumer culture to buy your groceries. It's buying stuff. It's why we have these green pieces of paper that have facilitated movement from a barter economy. To get my shoes, I don't have to go give a guy a chicken anymore, which would be very inefficient. Number two is I can buy experiences, intangible things. That's the vacation, that's the, you know, the travel. Whatever I'm happening to do when I'm going out on the weekend with my kids. Right. As you could say, I'm buying the restaurant meal. But really what I'm buying if I'm not eating alone is having the meal with my family, which is an experience. Number three is I can buy time. And buying time means usually I'm paying somebody to do something that I could have done so I can use the time for something else. And there are more and more opportunities to do that in our world today. It's, you know, cutting your grass, cleaning your house, whatever it happens to be right. You don't do everything yourself. I mean, we've always done that. I mean, I get time back by not trying to figure out all my health problems. I go to the doctor. Right. Certainly don't try to take out my own appendix.

[George]

I bet you could do it, though.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

One guy did it really serious. Yeah, it was actually. It was a Russian doctor in Antarctica at the South Pole station at one point, and he was the doctor, and he got appendicitis. So he took out his own.

[George]

No one else to do it.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Took out his own appendix and he survived. I don't recommend it.

[George]

That's like, yeah, I wasn't gonna try it. I wasn't like, why should try this at home?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

I remember when I. When I was. I was a musician for a long time. All the way.

[George]

French horn.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

French horn.

[George]

Professional.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

And early in my 20s, I was so poor that one time I gave myself a haircut.

[George]

Oh, boy. And here we are today.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

And here we are today. And look at the result.

[George]

You did it so badly. It never grew back.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

I was so traumatized.

[George]

What did you have back then?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

What did I have?

[George]

Oh.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Oh, I was.

[George]

Some shears.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

It was like a. A great civilization. So it was like. You should have seen me. I had. I had. You want to see? Yeah.

[George]

Do you have a photo?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

I got a photo.

[George]

Can we put it on the video?

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

We can put it on. We'll put it on the video. So I'm not going to show you now. We'll put it on the video. But this is a side. So it's like. All I can say is live right, kids, you know, Anyway, yeah, don't smoke and drink. That's all I can say. Okay, so that's good.

[George]

So we got. Buy stuff, buy experiences, buy time.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Buy time. You can give your money away, right? You can give your money away and to causes and people and whatever happens to be. And last but not least, you can save it now. Invest it, whatever it happens to be, don't spend it. Put it away for something generative. Store it up is what it comes down to. Now, here's the interesting thing about this, George. There's lots of research on what brings happiness and what doesn't and what we tend to do and what doesn't. The animal impulse says, door A. Buy stuff. Why? Because the animal impulse is based on the biological imperative, the evolution that says you will survive the winter and get more mates if you have more stuff. More animal skins, more buffalo jerky, more acorns in your cave. Yeah, all of it. Because then it's like, you know, then the ladies are going to be like, oh, that guy's got a lot of flints and animal skins. You know, he must be a good mate. That's what your troglodyte brain is telling you from. Because our brain is the same as it was 250,000 years ago in the late Pleistocene. And. But that doesn't really have any bearing on happiness because Mother Nature doesn't care if you're happy. She just wants you to pass on your genes and survive the winter. That's what it comes down to. We still have these very ancient brains. And that's why, by the way, that men peacock so much with stuff they don't need because they're actually trying to appeal to potential mates even though they don't know it. Now the reason for that is that women at the primordial level are most attracted to men with resource cues. Women are attractive to men because of fertility cues, which is why women in their 60s will still try to look like they're in their 30s. And they don't know why exactly, they just want to do that. And men always want to look richer than they are. And when they're young and they're not rich, they want to look stronger than they are because that's potential. Resource cues, that all comes back to evolutionary biology is what it comes down to, right. So we do that stuff and choose door A. But only door A is the only one that doesn't bring happiness. All the other doors bring happiness if you use them right. Buying experiences and having those experiences with people that you love, that is hugely meaningful. And the data are abundance, that buys happiness. Buying time and either spending it with people that you love or in edifying activities that lift you up. That means what Josef pieper, the great 20th century German philosopher, what he referred to as leisure. So leisure is not asedia, which is this ancient Greek word that means like chilling, means kind of laziness.

[George]

Didn't know they had a word for that.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

That's not leisure. Leisure is learning, leisure is worshiping. Leisure is relationship development. Those are the three areas, but that you don't get paid for it. That's real leisure. So if you buy time, you gotta use it in something generative and you will get happier. Philanthropy and charity, super important in giving your money away. You can't give it away to something that you hate, obviously. You gotta give it to something that's meaning. And a lot of people don't even know, right? They don't even know. And last but not least is saving it. And saving it is like so great for happiness. So great because that's a marker of progress. I mean being able to say my future is going to be better than now and my kids lives are going to be better than mine. That's just like you're printing happiness. It's a happiness machine. That's why this is. You work for a happiness company.

[George]

I never thought about it that way. Well, next time I invest my 401k. I'm going to be a little happier. Arthur, always a pleasure. Congrats on the new book. Thanks for being here.

[Dr. Arthur Brooks]

Great to be with you, George. Thank you.

[George]

Huge thanks to Dr. Arthur Brooks for taking the time to enlighten us today. I don't know about you, but I'm feeling a little happier after being in the same room with that guy that's kind of a superpower. Make sure to check out his new book, the Meaning of youf Life. It releases March 31, and he's got a free virtual event happening on March 27. You can check that all out at themeaningofyourlife.com or click the link in the description. And if this is your first intro to Arthur and you liked what you heard, you're gonna love this video where we dive into how debt, money and happiness are all way more connected than people realize. It is the most watched video on this channel for a reason. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.