A (3:08)

I'm great. Yes, were on Descendants. You were on Shades of Blue. You were even Maggie in the CW reboot of Charmed. You have done lots of amazing things. I enjoyed watching one of your makeup Instagrams. I learned a lot about eyebrows, actually, which was thrilling. So thank you for that. I now know how to do. Yes. I. I can do my eyebrows very well. As you said, friends, not twins. I will always, always remember that.

B (3:33)

Yeah. Remember, it's the words to live by.

A (3:38)

Tell everyone a little bit about you and just why you're here today with us.

B (3:43)

Well, as you said, I'm an actress, and that is my line of work and kind of what's brought me into, like, the public sphere. But I grew up in Vancouver. I'm actually in Vancouver right now. And I moved out to Los Angeles when I was about 20, I'd say. Prior to that, I moved to New York. I was like, freshly 18. I moved there for Shades of Blue, actually. So kind of been bopping around from a. From a young age, which has been fun, but definitely my mental health journey has been a huge part of that. And that's kind of what brings me here today, is just wanting to talk more about specifically living with OCD and how that is such a big part of my story and who I am. It's part of my life every single day. And my family is so supportive. My mom and dad are so supportive. I have three sisters and a brother, and just. Just really wonderful family who have been. It can be such a hard disorder for people to understand fully, and they've really put in the work to. To. To understand as best they can.

A (5:00)

Yeah.

B (5:01)

And so, yeah, that's a little bit about me. And, yeah, I'm sure we'll get into more amazing.

A (5:06)

And so, like you said, so nice to have that family support, because sometimes families bring in some of their feelings about, oh, a child with a mental health problem. What did I do wrong? I feel so shamed or guilty about that and totally. And that that can really happen. Right. And. And I've had so many conversations with parents where I'm like, stop blaming yourself. Let's focus on helping this, not blaming for it. Right?

B (5:31)

Yeah, absolutely. No one is. Is really to. I mean, I'm sure. In. It's funny. One other thing I'd like to add about myself is I literally just, I just enrolled in an online university for my, my psych degree. And so I'm, I'm my. A major in psychology and a minor in French actually. And I am just learning a lot about. About. More about on a deeper level where, where things can not go wrong. But, but the whole nature versus nurture debate. And yeah, it is, it is interesting. It's. It's easy to try to, to point blame and to try to figure out where something may have happened and what the cause is, but really it just comes down to treating it and trying to just live, live a, a good healthy life as best you can. And my parents have done a really, really wonderful job of that.

A (6:34)

Fantastic. So you start acting and singing around age 3 and does OCD show up around then too? Or is that something you more gradually notice? How does, how does that all come about?

B (6:46)

Yeah, yeah. I started dancing like you said, when I was three years old. And dance was my first, my first love. I was a competitive dancer all my life.

A (6:56)

And jazz, hip hop, where'd you go?

B (7:00)

All of that.

A (7:01)

Okay.

B (7:01)

Hip hop, lyrical, contemporary, modern, song and dance, tap, kind of. Yeah, all of it. And acting. Acting didn't necessarily come into my life until a little bit later. But, but OCD first showed up certainly when I was, when I was younger. I think fifth grade is when it sort of emerged as a real issue that needed to be addressed. Prior to that, it. I was certainly an anxious child. I was really preoccupied with the safety of my parents. From what I've heard, that is, that is pretty common for, for youth. I would, you know, stand at the window of the dance studio and if my mom was just a couple minutes late, it was like sheer panic of where is she? Did she get into a car accident? So that's kind of where it first started showing up is, is really, really ruminating about the safety of my parents and it really kind of hindering, hindering my quality of life and which, which graduated into the a. A very deep obsession about weather in the fifth grade. It presented itself as a fear of wind. I, I missed a lot of my fifth grade year in school because I, you know, I would look outside and I would see a branch moving just, just on such a small, tiny level, like virtually imperceptible to, to anyone else. And I, I would refuse to go to school because I would be convinced it was the world ending or a natural disaster coming or I wouldn't be Safe. If I left the house, I would shut the windows and the blinds. And so we didn't know at that time that it was ocd. But of course, looking back, I can perfectly sort of identify the obsessions and the compulsions that followed.

A (9:06)

I hear that from so many people that a young weather fear when you're a child, isn't that so paramount in their development of fear? Tornadoes and lightning strikes or different things. So you are not the first person who's ever said that.

B (9:24)

Wow. Yeah, well, that's. Even though it's not my fear now, that's very validating because it was. Yeah, it was. It was massively disruptive to my life.

A (9:34)

Yeah. Whether. You know, now that you're in school too, why don't let's armchair psychologist for a moment. But. Yeah, there we go. There we go. Yes. We have to pose. You must pose for that, as you do. But weather might be one of the only really unpredictable things when you're a child. Right. Because so much of your life is kind of regimented and set. You go to school, we take this car, you know, mom's here, dad. But weather just comes out of nowhere.

B (10:00)

And on its own.

A (10:02)

Yeah.

B (10:02)

Sort of sketch.

A (10:03)

I never thought of it like that till right now. This is fascinating.

B (10:06)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a. That's a good point. It's truly, it's. It's one of those things that is absolutely out of your control and I mean, virtually unpredictable. I mean, I know we have. We have what is the media, not.

A (10:23)

Meteorologists who like to tell us things, but are like 50%.

B (10:28)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's not. It's certainly not a. A foolproof method, but, yeah, it really shook me to my core. And I actually went on a. This is. This is interesting because it's kind of like an inciting incident is what sparked that was. I went on. I had family that lived on Vancouver island and you would take a ferry from the mainland to the island. And one holiday season, we were taking a ferry back from the island to our home on the mainland and there was a massive storm and we were the last boat that they let travel from. From the island to the mainland before they. They stopped ferrying passengers over. And it was. It was just terrifying. I. I remember so vividly. It just. The ship was just felt like it was going to topple over glass. Like the windows were breaking, there were fires on board, there was flooding. Oh, my gosh, it was. It was terrifying. And I'm like. I'm like how did no one else develop an insane fear of, of weather? I was completely, you know, we refer to it as sort of Pandora's box.

A (11:52)

Right. Wow, that sounds terrible.

B (11:55)

Terrifying. Terrifying for anyone. But I guess, you know, whatever, whatever was going on cognitively in my head was, it was just enough to like trigger something that perhaps was already, was already going to be triggered in some way or another.

A (12:12)

Yeah, you, well, you talked about that. Nature, nurture. You know, we say this diathesis stress model, meaning we have genetic predispositions but we need the right environmental stressors at the right time in order to kick them off. And that might have been the confluence of those two things right there that you had that genetic predisposition and bam. That stressor was enough to be like, okay, weather is dangerous and there's danger out there in the world or something.

B (12:36)

Yeah. It's so interesting looking back. Like I, yeah, it really was a switch in my brain and it, it went from, from it felt like a switch in my brain going from, you know, sort of a neurotypical way of thinking to my brain feels like it's not mine. It's out of control. It's this preoccupation with, with the uncertainty and things that are out of my control was just so vast. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was childhood super fun.

A (13:14)

Yeah. I feel like I should charge you for this call here. So.

B (13:20)

Right. Getting to unload and, and you know, thank you for therapizing.

A (13:26)

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. But it's so important for people to hear these things because we don't always talk about some of those potential type of events that might be the kickoff thing. And it doesn't mean that you have like a trauma or PTSD or something like that, but it does mean there was a big stressor. And that's what we need a lot of times to kick something off is that you experience the stressor and you potentially learn something from that. That life is more unpredictable than you thought. And boy, doesn't OCD love to jump in and say well I can give you predictable is if you just do these compulsions. You never have to worry about that. Yeah, there you go.

B (14:02)

It is. There you go. The ultimate liar.

A (14:06)

Oh yeah, a hundred percent. I mean you have been lied to by your own brain so many times. It's amazing, right?

B (14:12)

Yeah, it's pretty, pretty incredible. Every day even now being, you know what I like to call in, in recovery, it's, it's still I, I, it's and day to day adventure. Really. Yeah. Yeah.

A (14:30)

All Right. So you're this amazing dancer. Acting comes a little bit later. How do you get into acting? How does that all start? Do you just start going to some auditions and try things or somebody see you and think, she's a, she's a princess Audrey right there if I ever saw one.

B (14:51)

You know, it kind of was. I like to say that acting kind of found me versus like I found. Okay, because it wasn't, it wasn't really on my radar. I mean, I loved performing. I certainly, that was, that is a huge part of, of who I am. But my dad has long worked in the film industry. He still does. He's a stand in. But back in his heyday, he, he would act and do voice acting. And so he was always involved in the arts. My mom's also artistic. My whole family is very artistically inclined. And my older sister, who's only a year and nine days older than me, so we're very close in age. She, she wanted to start acting and they sought out an agent for her. And I was like, well, I want to do what she's doing because she's my older, cooler sister. And I sort of tagged along and we had, we had an agent take us, take us both on. And it wasn't until a little bit later, around 15, that I started considering what I wanted my life to look like and what I wanted to do as a career. And I always wanted to be in some sort of active service. At first I wanted to be a dentist and then I wanted to be a nurse. And I landed kind of on, I think I really wanted to go to nursing school. I really want to deal with pediatric nursing. And that was kind of my goal. And I did not come from money at all. And I knew that I would have to sort of finance my own way through medical school. And acting kind of became this, well, hey, maybe if I could book a commercial here or there or a small spot here or there, could I could earn enough money to put myself through school. And that's kind of where it all started. And it wasn't long after taking that approach that I booked my first series regular. When I was turning 16 years old, I was still in high school. And it really kind of took off from there. I was, I've been very lucky that it's been steady. And I kind of was like, oh, why didn't I think of doing this before? Like, this is everything. This is perfect. I love this. And yeah. And ever since then, it's been my, kind of my calling.

A (17:22)

And how awesome now with online capabilities that you can still pursue that service, dream with school and do the thing you love at the same time.

B (17:30)

Exactly. Amazing. This is a very. Yeah, it's, I've always wanted to, to go to post secondary school and I kind of counted it out because acting is such an unpredictable schedule and you never know when the next job is going to come and where it's going to take you. And yeah, being able to have it be portable, I can do it wherever I want and to even be able to pause it when I need to, it's. It's great. And you know, I've, I've struggled with placing my value on, on my career. That's been a common topic of conversation with, with my own therapist is, you know, if I'm not working, who am I? And school has kind of allowed me to take, take matters into my own hands and, and start to explore other things that also matter to me and excite me and that I want to. Yeah, explore.

A (18:31)

That's amazing. Now obviously OCD had no influence or interference in your acting life whatsoever. So. Yes, it's only that one case. All right, maybe we'll that then. So. Yeah, yeah, you have this thing you love, you have this thing you're passionate about and then you have this thing in your brain that says how can I screw that up in some ways? So what was that like to balance this oncoming OCD as you're getting older? And of course, you know, we know this, the, the two peak times for OCD are transitions. So that transition from grade school to high school, maybe now it could be for some people from high school to college, it could be your first job. So you go to this series. Not a stressor at all by the way for you, I'm sure. And sadly, wherever you go, your brain goes with you, which means OCD goes with you. So how did you manage that and what was that experience like for you?

B (19:29)

Gosh, it's. There is so much to unpack. But I guess to start with, you know, I. A formal diagnosis was of course very important. I initially I, I really. So back to, back to what you were saying about transitions being a trigger.

A (19:48)

Yeah.

B (19:49)

When I went to high school I kind of had this break between the weather phenomenon related OCD to kind of, it kind of ebbed. Okay. And I had a little bit of reprieve and then went to high school and it started to take on more of a quote unquote pure O sure vibe if you will. It, it started to show up in sexual orientation, OCD and relationship ocd. And it got to a point where I. I was like, there is absolutely something wrong with me. I cannot keep going. Like, I can't keep going on this way. And I'm looking back, I don't understand how I survived from, you know, eighth grade to getting that formal diagnosis, largely to the support of my family, although they didn't know what was happening. So I was constantly getting reassurance, you know, asking. Asking my mom, do you think I love my partner enough? My high school boyfriend, like, just so preoccupied with. And I think to be clear to listeners, it's important to, like, delineate that. It wasn't like, I talk about sexual orientation. It wasn't that I was concerned about being gay or not. It was the concern of, oh, I don't know if I know who I am. Like, I need to know for sure who I am.

A (21:25)

Right.

B (21:26)

It's not so much the subject matter, it's the uncertainty of it all.

A (21:29)

And that's it. So many people sometimes hear that and they think, oh, you don't like these other orientations? No, it is zero to do with that whatsoever. Absolutely zero to do that. It is that ultimate questioning of how do I truly know who or what I am, what I stand for, what I believe in, how I identify what my orientation is, what's my values, what's my faith, what's. Wherever. Wherever you could have a doubt about something about you. That's what OCD is going to attack. So we just want to make that very clear in this discussion that that's what we're talking about.

B (22:01)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, I've done lots of. With my own therapist, but also my own research. Just like OCD is ego dystonic, so it attacks things that, you know, that you don't believe in and. Or that are antithetical to your own belief system or. Or just antithetical to. To who you thought that you were or. Yeah, yeah. So for me, it began showing up as, what if. What if everything I thought about myself is wrong?

A (22:37)

Yeah.

B (22:39)

You know, and you focus. You focus so much on one thing, it really starts to take over your life and your brain. And so I existed that way for. For a long while because, you know, it was also hard to talk about. I, you know, I had. I had my mom and bless her, she was. She is. And was so supportive and did the best she could, but she didn't know that giving me reassurance was a big. No, no, she had no idea. No, she had no idea. We had no Idea. And I, you know, I began to do my own research online about, like, what could this be? I, you know, obsessing about relationship 24 7. What if I don't love him? What if he doesn't love me? And I came across some articles about. About ocd because my, My preconception about it was what we see in the media, which is. Is more cleanliness and order, which is valid and real, but it's just not how it shows up for a lot of people.

A (23:36)

Correct.

B (23:37)

And I, I was like, oh, my gosh. I think that's what I have. I. It was like, it was a kind of eureka moment. And so I departed for Shades of Blue, the. The series I did in New York when I was 18. And it reached a peak at that time where I, to be so honest, was there. I was like, I don't think I can go on anymore. I. I was like, I. It took up so it was my whole world. It was. I was going to work and filming, and all I could think about was my relationship and the rightness, quote, unquote, rightness of it and if it was the right relationship. Was I making a mistake? Just telltale. Classic relationship ocd.

A (24:29)

Totally.

B (24:29)

Yeah. Textbook. And. But I had no idea. And so I had. I just, I. I just wanted relief. I just wanted relief. So I got a formal diagnosis while I was in New York, and that was validating and amazing. And I also was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and major depression. And, yeah, it was. It was interesting because at the same time that I had that. Those answers, the first therapist I had, she. She was valuable in that she was able to highlight some of what was different about me. But when I brought to her this. This obsession, this preoccupation with my relationship, her response was, well, maybe that's showing up for a reason. You know, maybe I don't think that she had the adequate knowledge about relationship OCD or some of the more pure O themes to be able to help me dissect that properly. And so she's, you know, she said that and she was like, well, maybe it's worth looking at. Maybe it's showing up for a reason. And I, in the biggest compulsion of my life, broke up with my high school boyfriend. And I don't know what would have happened had I had the proper, you know, the proper guidance. But. But that's how it, how it played out. And the relief was so short term. Yeah, exactly. 12 second stops. And it helped absolutely nothing. And so eventually, after the series ended, I moved to Los Angeles And I found my therapist at 20 years old that I'm still working with now. So it's been almost 10 years of working together.

A (26:37)

Good for you.

B (26:37)

She, yeah, she has genuinely just altered the course of my life in a way that is, is so meaningful and I'm beyond grateful for her. She has introduced me to acceptance and commitment therapy, exposure response prevention, cognitive behavioral therapy. We tackle all of it. And so to your point, career wise, it was so important to me to have that support and to begin to understand my brain, because without it, I don't know if I would have been here. I don't know if I would have. I certainly don't think I would have been able to continue pursuing acting. And yeah, it just, it just was absolutely crucial and hard, hard work, especially at the beginning, to dismantle and try to untangle the ways that my brain was twisted and to look at how it was working and try to understand how it was working and to restructure. And that's what we began with was restructuring, you know, then moving on to very gentle exposure and response prevention. And these things all allowed me to, to maintain a career all the while, you know, lots of, lots of suffering. So much suffering, so much pain. But, but I had, I had her and I had my family and I had, you know, this emergence of the online community of people who speak about ocd, which was also crucial for me, looking to see that I wasn't alone. And of course, of course, like you said, OCD attacks all of the things that matter to you. So naturally, my career was a prime target. And one of my biggest themes to date is what if I forget how to act? What if I, what if I can't act anymore? What if I just can't remember the lines, you know, before a big, before a big meeting or a big callback or a, we call them chemistry tests where you meet with other potential cast mates and see if you have chemistry. Just endless rumination about whether I will be able to perform. And I think, you know, often I, I bring this to, to other actors and I, I tell them about it and they're like, oh, I get it. I know. You know, but I think people forget that the diagnostic criteria is that it. There's like such a level of interference with your daily life. This isn't just like, you know, this is out of 24 hours of the day. This sometimes takes up 12 hours of my day. So I have dismantled a lot of that. And bottom line with anything but with acting is I just don't know how it's gonna go. I just don't know. And learning to be okay with that is. Is huge.

A (30:03)

I always say that that's such a big part of the treatment, is that I don't have an answer for you, but I can help you live with not knowing.

B (30:11)

Bingo.

A (30:12)

Right?

B (30:13)

Bingo. Yeah. Yeah.

A (30:15)

And. And isn't it interesting, like your ocd. I'm going to make an assumption here. Tell me if I'm right or wrong. Does not probably say, before you drive a car, let's think about all the people you might kill while you're driving. Right.

B (30:27)

No.

A (30:27)

Okay, but it will say, but what if you forget that one line and that, you know, just so exactly. We don't care about all these other awful, horrible things that could happen anywhere in your world. But this one, this one's unacceptable. This one thing would be the worst possible thing ever. You could kill 25 people while driving. Okay, but to forget that one line, oh, well, boy, wouldn't. Wouldn't that be just awful?

B (30:53)

That would be horrible. It would end my life and I would never get a job again. And just all of the what if gifts. Yeah. And it's interesting because, you know, OCD takes on so many shapes and forms, and I have never personally related to, oh, what if I hit someone with my car? And, you know, circling the block and checking. And that's a huge one for so many people.

A (31:15)

Yes.

B (31:17)

I've never had that. Now, to be fair, I have dealt with a lot of harm. OCD and that started showing up in, like, preteen, maybe 15 years old, which was also just that it harm Themes are. I just, I. I feel so deeply for people who. Who struggle with.

A (31:40)

Yeah, extra special fun on that one. Right?

B (31:44)

Yeah, extra special fun sauce. A little bit of sprinkles. A little bit of fun.

A (31:52)

Hot sauce with sprinkles. Yeah, there you go.

B (31:54)

Yeah, exactly.

A (31:56)

Yeah.

B (31:59)

So, yeah. Anything that. That dealt with the ways that my life could go wrong or the ways that I may not know myself. Yeah. Huge. Huge for me.

A (32:16)

Well, it is the doubting disorder. Right.

B (32:18)

So certainly. Certainly it is.

A (32:22)

Yeah. And I. I've tried to explain it. Sometimes the. The idea that the doubting disorder demands one thing which isn't an absolute answer, but it will never accept an absolute answer because it will doubt every answer you give it, which means you can never fulfill it.

B (32:39)

So accurate.

A (32:40)

Yeah.

B (32:41)

Yeah.

A (32:42)

And I'm wondering what. What was it like to go from trying to satisfy and fulfill ocd, failing every single time to just being able to go, okay, yeah, whatever, and moving on and living your life.

B (32:57)

I mean, what a shift. It's. At first, it feels completely almost impossible. Like, how could I possibly not spend all my time trying to figure this out? It feels like I'm putting myself and others in danger by. By not satisfying these compulsions, whether they be mental or physical. Most of mine would show up mentally, but, yeah, it would. It felt. It was so difficult. And my therapist would always tell me, like, you have to take the leap of faith. You. You don't know for sure, but taking that leap of faith and. And deciding not to abide by OCD's rules and regulations is like. Is the first step to recovery. And gradually, over, like, almost a decade of work with my therapist, I've gotten to a place where, I mean, I still struggle. Like, I. I will have a thought that comes in where I'm like, whoa, that's a new one. And it really grabs me. But the themes that I've had for years, at this point, I'm like, okay, what else you got? Like, I'm. I'm not entertaining that right now. Like, it's. It's very tempting and seductive, but, like, I. I know. I. If it. If it. What is the saying? Like, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.

A (34:23)

Yeah.

B (34:23)

Yeah. So I know. I know the. The tricks, but. Yeah. Even. Even. Even so, it's. It's an interesting disorder because. Truly colors the way that I interact with the world. Yeah.

A (34:45)

Sometimes people have described, and maybe this happened for you too, that they're almost afraid to really like something, knowing that, you know, we know what that might mean. Yeah.

B (34:57)

Oh, my gosh. Totally. Because. Because then if you value something and, like, something, your OCD is probably at some point gonna latch onto it. I can't think of anything that means something to me in my life that my OCD hasn't latched onto. My family, my relationships, my. My personal identity, my pets, my career, friendships, even health. OCD is also huge for me, you know, especially with a history of, you know, cancer in my family and just. And things that are, of course, out of my control. I. I, over the years have. Have dealt with my. My fair share of. Of health, ocd. But yeah. Yeah, all of that to say it's. Anything that matters to you is going to be tainted by ocd.

A (35:53)

One can do never enough scans for ocd, can one?

B (35:57)

No, no, no, you cannot. I. Oh, my gosh, the time and money I've spent going to the doctor is now I really have to, like, make sort of draw lines with myself of. Okay, if this thing, whatever it is, headache, muscle twitch persists for this amount of time, then we're gonna go, we're gonna go to get it checked out. We're not gonna check ourselves into emergency or we're going to go to the doctor. Like setting guidelines for myself has been like. And boundaries have, has been also huge.

A (36:36)

And maybe this has happened to you, but anxiety based conditions make people do things that they would never suggest to anyone else in their life to do.

B (36:50)

No, never. Like, yeah, I would never like ludicrous things. I. You have. Oh, you have a. You have a cut on your finger. No, it's not sepsis. You don't have to go to emergency. Like, you had your heart did a triplet. You're, you're, you're fine. Okay? You don't need to check yourselves into the hospital immediately. You know, one of the things that I did early on with my harm OCD was I would hide the kitchen knives because I had a huge fear of sleepwalking in the middle of the night and harming someone I loved. It was one of my biggest fears. And I want to be clear that at the root of it all, I know who I am and, and I know that I would never. But that's exactly why it shows up, is because like we discussed earlier, it's. It's ego dystonic. Anything that I value, it attacks. And so I would, I would just go to all these lengths to make sure that something didn't happen. Where if a friend came to me with, with this fear, I'd be like, hey, that's okay. We all have weird thoughts. It's cool. You don't have to do that. But of course, when it's, when it's. Yourself, it's a little, A little more difficult.

A (38:20)

I call it specialness. The rules of the world apply differently to me than they do to everybody else.

B (38:25)

Yeah. Yeah, that's very real.

A (38:28)

And it's so convincing, isn't it? I mean, it just feels if, If I hear one thing from anyone I do interviews with or that I'm working with or even on my webinars is the phrase. But it feels so real.

B (38:43)

Oh my gosh, it does. It is so convincing. It just. And like, I don't. Like, what does that mean? What does it feel so real mean? I don't know, but all I can tell you is that it feels real. Like it just. It feels like there is danger. Danger. Danger. The alarms are sounding in my brain. Yeah, it's Exhausting. I have so much compassion for people who live with. With ocd.

A (39:11)

Yeah, well, that's obvious. I could see that for sure.

B (39:14)

Yeah.

A (39:16)

And I like to say to folks, you know, what couldn't you justify with the phrase, but it feels so real. Right?

B (39:22)

That is. Yeah. Any.

A (39:26)

As long as you say, but it feels like it, then it's. Then it's legit in your brain, right?

B (39:32)

Yes, yes. I mean, even day before yesterday, I caught myself in a compulsion with my mom texting her, saying, but I feel like I'm never gonna book this job. I feel like I'm never gonna, you know, book the. The next big thing. What does that mean? Yeah, it's like it's not. That's not. That's not a real measurement of reality.

A (39:55)

Right. Because when. But when someone I'm working with will say that to me, I'll say, you know, and it. It feels like the ceiling's about to collapse upon me, you know, And. And of course, it still hasn't in 26 years of doing this, but. But, boy, it feels like it, you know?

B (40:10)

Yeah, totally, totally. Could. Could do it.

A (40:14)

It's always a possibility. OCD makes possibility equal probability.

B (40:20)

Yes. Yes. That's so. That encapsulates it so well. Yep. That's huge.

A (40:28)

Now 2019 comes and you share publicly that you have OCD. You did not have to do that. Thank you for doing that. But you did not have to do that.

B (40:38)

Yeah.

A (40:39)

What. Why. What leads to that? What is it?

B (40:43)

You know, I have always been a pretty open person. Not. Not sure totally why. Maybe it has something to do with coming from a super supportive family and just. And having. Never having to really doubt that I'm valuable. But I think the heart of it is that I wanted people to know that they weren't alone. And I also wanted to know that I wasn't alone. And I wanted to, you know, I have a. I have a decent sized following. And I thought if I can share my story and have it affect one person and have one person look at it and go, oh, my gosh, okay, I am not alone. And this person who may seem like they have their life totally together is also going through something really difficult, then it's worth it to me. And also just the online community, the online OCD community is. Has been such a valuable tool to me in my recovery. Whether it's just like reminders of different approaches and tools I can use or hearing someone else's story and being reminded that I'm not alone. It's been huge. So Just wanting to add to that conversation and for perhaps people who. Who have. Haven't even been able to put a name to. To what they're going through. I've had. I've had loads of people reply to stories or posts of mine and say thank you for talking about this if it's so validating, especially someone I, you know, I'm so lucky to even be able to say this, but like. Like someone I admire and look up to, to talk about it candidly is. Is huge for them.

A (42:42)

Yeah. That's awesome.

B (42:44)

Yeah.

A (42:45)

I think it continues to help break that stigma down too. You know, we. We still sadly think it's okay to have a physical problem, but a mental health issue. You should be in control of that. Why aren't you? And boy, if. If you could control your brain, you would have by this point, right?

B (43:02)

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That. That. That's not a possibility. So thanks, tips. That's really helpful.

A (43:15)

Thanks.

B (43:16)

Why don't you just stop thinking about it?

A (43:18)

Oh, you never heard that before? No one ever told you that? No, no, no.

B (43:23)

Why don't you just stop thinking? Why don't you just stop.

A (43:26)

Oh, thanks. I never. I never thought about not thinking. Well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do that right now.

B (43:31)

Yeah.

A (43:32)

See how that goes.

B (43:33)

You are just.

A (43:34)

Wow. You should be a psychologist.

B (43:38)

You should do this professionally.

A (43:41)

Yes.

B (43:42)

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

A (43:44)

There probably is the downside of a little bit because sometimes people come out and say they have ocd, and then lots of people say, oh, I have a little of that too. Or how do you. How do you educate people when they have. I could see the fumes coming out of your ears right now. I'm just gonna hand it over. Go talk. I don't even say anymore.

B (44:12)

I. While I. While I get super heated about it because it's something I'm super passionate about. I really try to approach people who are perhaps not educated about it with a soft hand. Soft, but. But firm. Because as you know, and as so many of us with OCD know, people don't really. Generally don't really understand the severity of the disorder. And so they think that, you know, liking to keep their room clean or making sure the dishwasher is empty is like, symptomatic of. Of ocd. And it's. They don't understand that for it to be OCD and for it to be, you know, about cleaning your room, it has to be. There has to be such a level of interference with your regular life that it. That demands a clinical diagnosis. So when people go around saying like, I'm just so OCD about that, I'm like, oh, huh, huh, huh. I don't, I don't, you can't. First of all, that's incorrect use of the term. You don't go around saying I'm so, you know, and, and I, I want to say that this is not me being flippant about any sort of physical ailment. But you wouldn't go around saying I'm so diabetic about that. I'm so diabetes with that.

A (45:46)

Right, right.

B (45:47)

That's just not per. First of all, that doesn't make sense. And second of all, that's just not proper grammar.

A (45:52)

Right. We must use proper grammar.

B (45:56)

Of course, yes, you can say, I, I suffer from diabetes. I have been diagnosed with diabetes. I am a person with diabetes. Just the same that you would say, I have ocd, I live with ocd, I suffer from ocd. Not, I'm a little bit OCD about that. You can't be a little bit OCD about that. It's either full send or you're not. I mean it. From my vantage point, I'm sure that there are varying degrees of how it interferes with someone's life.

A (46:27)

But I'm with you though. It's, we all have quirks and people will call a quirk or maybe even a personality style OCD when it's really not. And we don't even use other mental health conditions that way, you know, and, and everyone excuse the example. I'm just going to give a little warning on that. But you know, Sarah, I, if you said to me, you know, I'm, I'm one pound under my ideal weight, I, I have, I have a little bit of anorexia, I, I, you know, I mean, that would, that sounds ridiculous, right, when you say something like that. Yeah.

B (47:06)

And it's also to me, when I hear that I'm like, well, you would never say that to someone because what if they are struggling with, with that on a real level?

A (47:15)

Exactly.

B (47:15)

Like, that's not something to be taken lightly.

A (47:17)

Right.

B (47:18)

So the education is so important, which is also why I'm just like, I'm just so thrilled with everything that Nociti does and that you do because it's so important to break that stigma and you can't do that without education. And so I try to do my little bit of it. And even in my, you know, my day to day life with, with friends and family, I've, I've had to say like, hey, it hurts my feelings when you use it in a trivial. A trivial manner, because it's. It's really not. It's actually life or death for a lot of people. So, yeah, just education is so important, and that's great.

A (48:02)

And you have a platform to do that, which is wonderful. So thank you for that.

B (48:05)

Yeah, yeah. I'm very blessed.

A (48:07)

It raises all boats in this situation, so that's really awesome.

B (48:10)

Yeah, thanks.

A (48:12)

And maybe someday there'll be a show you're on and they'll have an OCD kind of theme or character, and you'll really be able to be like, no, this is. This is not what it's really like. Here's. Here's what it's actually like.

B (48:25)

I would love to lend my hand in whatever way I can. Hopefully one day my. You know, these two things that I am knowledgeable about kind of mesh together and perhaps the opportunity will present itself to play a character with OCD or be a sort of an advocate and an informant kind of. Because we want it to be, of course, portrayed in an accurate. In an accurate way.

A (48:51)

Yes, absolutely. You know, there's people out there, they follow you. They appreciate your work. You have an audience listening to this right now. And for those people who are thinking about. On the fence about treatment and therapy and doing something, what's your inspirational message to those folks?

B (49:13)

Oh, my gosh. Well, if you're thinking about it, just please pursue it. Do really. I truly believe it will only benefit you. No. CD is obviously a great place to start. You want to make sure that you're going. If it's OCD that you're suffering with. And I know that anxiety has some overlap with OCD as well, but you want to make sure that you're going to someone who is educated in erp, exposure and response prevention, which is, of course, the gold standard for OCD treatment and acceptance and commitment therapy. Act. It's. Yeah, these are people that are really going to be able to. To help you understand how your brain works and that you're not broken. You are just different. And you. You. You should have a helping hand along the way.

A (50:13)

Yeah.

B (50:16)

It's become so much more accessible thanks to. Largely thanks to you guys. And even if you can't afford therapy, like following some online resources, that. That's huge. That's. That's been so helpful in. In my recovery, really educating yourself. And I just want to just emphasize that you are not broken. You just. Your brain just works differently. It is not. It's not. It's not you. It's just. Yeah. It's just, it's just the way that, that your brain works. It's a little, like you said, it's a little special. It's a little specialized.

A (50:54)

Yeah.

B (50:55)

A little extra hot sauce on there. Yeah.

A (50:57)

And I like what you said about act. You know, that whole goal of ACT is to live a values based life. And when you're doing what OCD wants, you're living the values of ocd. And when you start doing the things you want to do, you're living your values and your life. And that's where we want to get people, is to be able to really do that.

B (51:13)

Yeah, exactly. Because the noise may always be there, but like you, it's so huge to remember that you have agency and that you get to decide on your actions. You don't have to play OCD's game. Yeah. Values have been a huge part of my recovery too.

A (51:34)

You, you have learned, I'm assuming that you can accept any thought or image or urge that pops into your head and it doesn't require attention at all.

B (51:45)

Certainly, certainly it, it can feel so, so tempting to get pulled into that cycle, but you actually don't have to. It's, it's the wildest thing. Once you kind of wrap your head around that, it's like, oh, I can have any thought, no matter how icky or disgusting or sticky it might feel. I actually don't have to answer that. I, I actually am going to go do what I, what I was going to do because I can't tell you how many times OCD has stopped me in my tracks and thwarted my plans for the day or the week or the month or the year. And, and it still happens from time to time. Of course I'll get, I will get stuck and get one of those really sticky thoughts that really pulls me in. But for me, the difference has been the turnaround time, too, is just so much quicker than it used to be. Instead of a week of obsessing about a certain thought, usually it's about, you know, it can be a day that I, that I try to get back onto my feet and really support myself and use the tools that I have. But at the bottom of it all is just, I don't have to, I do not have to entertain that anymore. I can drop that. I can just drop it like it's hot.

A (53:10)

Sometimes I use an acting example, actually, or screenplay work. I could have two people in a room and give them something to think about. And one person begins to do compulsions because it's very triggering to Them and the other person says, ooh, interesting. And writes a screenplay, horror film, turns it in, makes a million dollars off of it. So the idea itself is just an idea. It's the reaction to it that we have to really work on.

B (53:36)

I really like that kind of, that happenstance. The analogy that you just used is that's very, it's very interesting and useful and just highlights the way that someone's brain with OCD works.

A (53:51)

Yeah.

B (53:52)

Someone else, it's just like, huh, that was weird. Maybe I could write award winning screenplay about that. And what's interesting for me is sometimes I do have, like, I do draw inspiration from, you know, intrusive images or thoughts and go. That is really interesting. One of the things about OCD is that, like, we're very creative people. Like, we are sincerely creative with the amount of scenarios we can come up with. So I do think that that lends itself to my, my creativity as, as an artist and as an actor.

A (54:27)

Well, I'm very proud of you and the work you've done. Congratulations on your. Professionally, personally, psychologically. May I say, welcome to joining the field. If you're, if you need a, you know, maybe in 10 years from now, if you're ever looking for that internship or something, look me up again. Let's.

B (54:45)

I would absolutely love that. I would love that.

A (54:48)

If I'm not retired by then, that'd be great.

B (54:52)

Your work is so important. So thank you.

A (54:54)

Thank you. Yeah, I do love it. And to, again, I have one goal. I say it all the time. It's, I want you to live the life you want to live and not the life that OCD wants you to live.

B (55:07)

That's so profound. Yeah, it's perfect.

A (55:12)

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today, Sarah. We really appreciate it.

B (55:17)

Thank you so much, Dr. McGrath. I appreciate you.

A (55:19)

Where can people find you if they want to follow, look you up, all those things. Get great eyebrow tips, you know, whatever it might be.

B (55:27)

We like to keep it interesting. On my socials, we talk about compulsions and obsessions, but we also talk about eyebrows. You know, keeping it, keeping it fun and switching things up.

A (55:41)

Absolutely.

B (55:42)

I'm on Instagram. It's Sarah m. Jeffrey. My TikTok is Sarah Marie Jeffrey and I think those are my main platforms. I'm Instagram and TikTok. And yeah, you can kind of keep up to date with my career and my mental health advocacy on both of those platforms.

A (56:03)

Awesome. Thank you. And thank all of you for watching another episode today of the get to Know OCD podcast. Always great to have you here with us. If you're looking for help for OCD and related conditions, well check us out@nocd.com we work with body focused repetitive behaviors like hair pulling and skin picking, hoarding tics. We do work with anxiety disorders, mood conditions, trauma. We hope to be your one stop shop for the things that you need help with the most. So go to nocd.com that's N O C D com. And if you like the get to Know OCD podcast, well you can subscribe to the NOCD YouTube channel or get it wherever you you find your favorite podcasts. Until next time, be better to yourself than your OCD is. Thanks everyone.