A (3:02)

Yeah, I first had symptoms when I was probably 9 years old, and it was triggered by two different. What I don't know what they were called, it was in the 80s and they have these, like, evening TV movies that were based on true stories. So one was about an actress who had gotten breast cancer, and the other one was about a little boy who had been really, really, really hurt in a fire. And so I ended up having obsessions that year about cancer and fire. And I, for the next 18 years, had symptoms of OCD. And I had no idea it was OCD, because none of my symptoms really fit into what I knew about ocd, which is kind of partly the stereotypical aspect of ocd, but also just like the easy to share, the easy to show side of ocd, which is like, of course, when you watch TV or a movie, like, you're going to see the hand washing or you're going to see someone checking, going back and forth, like, that's really easy to visually show somebody. And you're not always going to show, like, the internal torment that someone is going through. And that's what I was really experiencing was these, like, awful and scary intrusive thoughts. And I didn't know that I was doing compulsions, but they were mental compulsions. I mean, this is something I learned well after diagnosis, um, because I thought I had, you know, what they call puro. I don't know if that's really.

B (4:35)

We could talk a little bit about that.

A (4:36)

Yeah. Yeah. So I really thought, like, no, I just have obsessions because I didn't have what I thought were compulsions. Now. I know, but I. Yeah.

B (4:48)

So for. For those who might not be as familiar, just puro is a name given for people who really only have mental compulsions. They don't have the physical compulsions that you might typically, again, as you said, see on TV or something like that.

A (5:00)

Yeah. And I think that it was a useful label for me at the time. I do. I think it's a little bit confusing because it doesn't have the C in it of the compulsion. But. Yeah, so for 18 years, I basically suffered. It doesn't mean I didn't have a good life around that or within that. I have a great family and great friends and somehow managed to get through College with this torment happening. And I finally got to this point in my 20s of basically rock bottom. Still didn't know it was OCD, but I was very, very depressed and didn't mind dying. Like, I thought, maybe suicide is the only option. But I wasn't quite that far where I didn't actually want to make that decision. So I was kind of welcoming a terminal diagnosis. Wasn't scared about flying on planes anywhere, because I'm like, this can go down. That's fine. That might actually be a good solution. So that was scary, those thoughts that told me that something is really wrong, I do want to live. If I'm not scared about dying anymore, I need to get help. But I didn't know what kind of help to get. And so I thought, well, first I'll go on an antidepressant because I'm so depressed that maybe if I'm somewhat happy again, the thoughts will go away because I did this kind of reverse. Like, okay, the thoughts are making me depressed. Take away the depression. Maybe the thoughts I didn't really know. So I called a friend who was a therapist, and I was like, I'm really scared, but I think I need to go on antidepressants. And we just talked, and for some reason, I opened up a little bit to her and I said, I kind of obsess about things. And I gave her a really safe example of if I start to think a thought and then I get interrupted, I have to come back to it. Like, I have to shut everything down and be like, everybody stop talking, or I need to go to a different room or something, and I have to, like, go through the whole thought process. And that was the absolutely safest possible example. I mean, that barely scratches the surface of what I was actually going through. So the next day, my friend emailed me, and she said, I'm not saying you have ocd, but you mentioned obsessions. And sometimes people with OCD go on an antidepressant, and that helps them. But I was like, sure, ocd? What? No, like, that can't. That cannot be right. But I was kind of desperate enough to start looking into it, and I did. Google looked up the word obsess in the dictionary multiple times a day and started to think, could this match with me even without some of these compulsions? And I finally started to feel like, maybe it is. But I was scared that after all this time and maybe finding help, that the person would tell me, oh, no, that's not ocd. What you have is untreatable or what you have is awful, or, you know, this isn't even an illness. It's just you're. You're just bad. So I really wanted to wait till I was ready for any kind of answer before I actually got help.

B (8:39)

And did you feel like you could actually get an answer or.

A (8:45)

Yeah.

B (8:46)

What was it? What was it like? Because obviously with ocd, the doubt that's there. How did it feel trying to find that answer?

A (8:55)

Well, I mean, it actually went pretty quickly once, but I had narrowed it down so far to like, what it probably was that I didn't go to a lot of different and have like, confusing answers. Like, I pretty much knew that it probably was ocd. So I went to the IOCDF website. They have a provider database. I picked the person that was like 1.13 miles away from me because I didn't want to drive too far. And. And you know, you know, this was like 20 years ago. We didn't have like GPS to just tell you how to get some where. He had to print out like a MapQuest thing. And I'm like, I still don't want any anxiety with it. So I went, I went to him and he was great. I actually called his office expecting to get an intake line, and he answered and then transferred me to the intake line. But he told me, you know, if you're really struggling in the next couple weeks, before I can get you in, like, feel free to call me. So I felt like I had this kind of amazing experience at first because I knew enough, I had educated myself enough to know to go to the right person. Whereas I know sometimes people really don't know what's happening. And then maybe they go to someone who says they treat OCD and they don't. But I got, I got lucky with that. But, you know, lucky of 18 years of having no idea.

B (10:26)

You get the answer that it's ocd. What does that change for you?

A (10:33)

Everything. Because I thought that there was just something untreatably wrong with me. Like I said, I did not think for the longest time. I didn't think it was a disorder. I remember kind of laughing. I mean, not haha laughing, but thinking. I just wish there was like a pill I could take or something I could do that would make this go away. Because I had bad thoughts. They were like immoral thoughts. They were thoughts that went against my values. They were thought that scared me. They were thoughts that made me think I was a danger to society, to my loved ones. I didn't think I should leave the house I didn't think I should have kids or a relationship for or do anything. So to realize, and especially to have the person I met with look at me and say, oh, yeah, that sounds like ocd. Lots we can do. He was unfazed, which is not what I expected. My. Believe it or not, my imagination went to all kinds of places. Places of, like, I'll tell him what I've been going through. He'll nod, but he'll push a button under his desk, and the police will show up. And I told him, you know, I can't tell anybody. I. I said, I. And he. I'm like, I just. There's no one I can tell. And he said, I'm sure you could tell people, you know, because I said I was afraid that my, you know, my family wouldn't love me anymore. And he said, I'm sure they would still love you. And I said, yeah, maybe my mom would, like. That was the only person that I could imagine could possibly love me based on the thoughts I had. And I thought I felt very guilty because I felt like I had been hiding things from people, like, my true nature from people for almost 20 years. I'm like, oh, my God. I have really charmed everyone in my life into thinking that I'm, like, a decent, nice person, because everything I did outwardly was the right thing. I didn't break any laws. I was a nice person. I just tried to do all these, like, good things. And, you know, I am a good person. It's not like I was faking it, but I think I really went further than some people would to. To have that outward shell. So, yeah, it meant everything. And I think the biggest thing for me, yes, the diagnosis and the label helped a lot, but really the biggest thing was, like, knowing that other people had bad thoughts, too. I'm like, oh, my God, they do. Because I thought. I thought there was no way. There's no way that there are other people who are thinking these things. Like, I don't know how it was possible that I was the only one in the world. I was, like, so unlucky that it was just me. But, yeah, he kind of prescribed, loosely, the Imp of the Mind by Lee Bear. And that just. That changed. That changed everything that changed my life.

B (13:52)

Great book, Bob. In fact, I have a copy of it. Right. I can see it over there on the bookshelf.

A (13:56)

Yeah.

B (13:57)

So, yeah.

A (14:00)

Do you.

B (14:00)

You. You use the word. I always like this. Bad thoughts. Do you still think of them as bad thoughts today, or do you think of Them more as just things that pop in my head.

A (14:10)

Yeah. I think that I, I'm still like, using that term to describe how it felt at the time. I. Yeah, I know now, like, they felt bad. I think that's the more important distinction to put on it is they made me feel bad versus at the time, it's like they were bad. They. They said something about me. They made, like, convinced me I was a bad person. Yeah. I would say now more like distressing, disturbing, unwanted. Of course intrusive. But if someone wanted to describe their own thoughts as bad, I'd be like, I get it. But I also have done a lot of work to, to neutralize me. Oh, that sounds like a compulsion.

B (14:50)

That does sound like a compulsion.

A (14:52)

But you know, just to be like, okay, I. I don't pat myself on the back every time I have a good thought. I'm not going to beat myself up every time I have a bad thought. They're just, they're all thoughts kind of mixed in together.

B (15:04)

It's a struggle, though, to this day, probably. It's not like OCD goes away or anything.

A (15:12)

No, not complete.

B (15:14)

We try.

A (15:14)

Yeah, it's there.

B (15:16)

We're still trying to figure it out. I haven't figured it out yet, but one day I hope you can figure that out.

A (15:21)

Maybe it would involve like a hammer.

B (15:26)

Yeah, the metaphorical hammer to the metaphorical part of your brain.

A (15:30)

Yeah, metaphorical. That's what I was saying.

B (15:33)

Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. And in terms of like, those themes. So these, these things that people would call the police on. Press that panic button.

A (15:48)

Right.

B (15:50)

There's still a lot of people out there who talk about OCD is washing your hands and straightening things. When I was talking to Howie Mandel a couple of weeks ago, he talked about. It's worse than any horror film you've ever thought of or seen in your life. That's how he described it. How would, how would you describe some of those more taboo themed aspects of OCD that just are still kind of hidden from what most people think of OCD as?

A (16:21)

Yeah, I mean, that's a really apt description. I felt scared to be in my own mind. And you can't escape your own mind. And that is a terrifying feeling. And really, it's our personalities. You know, we use the metaphor of heart or spirit, but it. Our personalities come from our brain. Right. And if my brain is giving me all these thoughts that I thought I didn't want, but somehow they're the most pervasive, that has to say something. And it Just, they were very graphic. And in recent years, I've seen some people on Instagram say, like, hey, did you know that obsessions can be images as well? And I'm like, I didn't know that anyone thought of them as anything different, because I'm like, what is the thumb? You know, I know we all have different brains, but, like, yeah, I had images. I had, I guess, kind of like movies in my mind. And, you know, part of my compulsing was trying to get through a thought or an imagined scenario without doing something bad in my mind. And every time I failed and then panicked and tried to make all the thoughts go away. But I just wanted to, like, tell myself, no, you can be a normal person. Because I felt like at one point in my life I had been a, quote unquote, normal, good person. And something happened. I didn't know what it was, but something happened. And suddenly I couldn't be around kids, Suddenly I couldn't be around my family. Suddenly I was a danger. And it really kind of convinced me that I could maybe be capable of hurting someone, even though it made me sick. It's just. And I get why people don't want to talk about it. I get that since we still to this day have people say I'm so ocd, or even I let the intrusive thoughts win, or whatever, it makes it harder for us to talk about. Because then when you say, well, actually my intrusive thought is that I want to have sex with my mom, they go, oh, God. Oh, no, no, no, that's not an intrusive thoughts. Like, no, you're wrong. But now I'm stigmatized because you didn't understand what you were joking about.

B (18:37)

Correct.

A (18:38)

Yeah.

B (18:41)

And obviously that's why people don't talk about it. Right. That's because we still hold on to this notion that there are just things you shouldn't talk about or you shouldn't think or you shouldn't have an image of or you shouldn't have an urge about. And you should be in control of your brain.

A (19:04)

Yeah. And when you're.

B (19:06)

I am not in control of my brain. I will tell you.

A (19:10)

Thank you for saying that.

B (19:12)

And I do this for a living. Yeah.

A (19:16)

It'S. And. And that. I know I keep using the word scary, but it is scary because it's really, like, maybe off putting isn't the right word, but to think like, why. Why is my brain acting this way when I so clearly don't want it? And then you start to think, well, maybe I do Want it. And I'm fighting it too much. But, yeah, the thought police scared the crap out of me that there. There are people who think that you shouldn't think anything. And if you think it, you certainly shouldn't talk about it. You certainly shouldn't voice it. Because if you voice it, then it means that it's a desire, and that should be a red flag. And shouldn't we do something about that person?

B (20:05)

Yeah, it's like sometimes I see those inspirational posters that say, you know, thoughts lead to actions, actions lead to. And I'm just like, oh, God, can we. Can we get rid of that one?

A (20:15)

I know. Please, God, no.

B (20:18)

Yeah, yeah. If thoughts led to actions every single time, man, I don't think a human would be left alive if that was the case. You know, there would just be.

A (20:27)

Sure. Right.

B (20:29)

Mass chaos going there.

A (20:31)

That's positive thinking for sure. That is. I. I don't want to say anything bad against people who believe in manifestation, but I feel like there's been kind of a surge lately of people talking about manifestation, manifesting good thoughts, getting what you want, putting it out there. You get back. And I'm like, I can't think that way because right then I. Why would I think that about good thoughts and not about bad thoughts? And I work so hard to not think that about. And yeah, I said bad thoughts again, but I'm kind of in that binary of good and bad, you know, that's fine. So to me, that's like such dangerous thinking. And either way, you'd have to put some effort and work into making something happen, whether it's a. An intrusive thought or a positive thought of, like, I want to publish my next book. It's like, you can't just think that. You have to write the book and you have to send it to publishers or get an agent. You have to do all that stuff.

B (21:31)

That's why my next book hasn't come out. I have just been thinking.

A (21:34)

It's still up there. Yeah, it's.

B (21:37)

It's. I have not done the things needed to do to put it on paper. Okay.

A (21:42)

Yeah. It has to be. So let me explain a little bit to you. You have to use your hands to type. Right. Maybe you could. Well, you could write with a pen and paper, maybe have it.

B (21:53)

People still do that?

A (21:54)

They do. They do. Yeah.

B (21:57)

Could hire a transcriber.

A (22:00)

Yeah.

B (22:02)

Yeah.

A (22:02)

You could use a quill, ink and pen, and then have a transcriber who.

B (22:07)

Doesn'T like a good quill these days.

A (22:10)

These days, Right. Right.

B (22:11)

These days, of course. So these things are in your head. They still are in your head, even after treatment. I think sometimes people have that notion that maybe I'll get treated this, and then I'll never have these thoughts again. And that is not the goal of therapy whatsoever. Was that difficult to hear at first that the goal of therapy was not going to be to. That we're not here to make these things go away. We're here to learn to live with them.

A (22:39)

Yeah. Because that was my biggest wish, is I would never think it again. Like, could you just wipe the slate clean? And I, I, you know, it's been so long now, but I don't think it took me too long to just say, okay, I, I know that I can't undo the thoughts I've already done. I can work on not feeling as upset about it, because really, what hurts about OCD is how it makes you feel. And if I can feel better about myself regardless of the thoughts, or if I can say, like, somehow I don't have to like them to accept their presence. Working through that was okay, I think, before I was diagnosed and before I really had an inkling it was ocd, I just remember thinking, even if I wake up tomorrow and never have one of these thoughts again, I don't know if I can ever forgive myself for the thoughts I've already had, because the shame of them was staggering.

B (23:57)

Sure.

A (23:58)

I was just like, and how. What kind of person am I to come to terms with those thoughts and. And say, oh, they didn't mean anything. What kind of person am I to say that? Like, to end up laughing about them or to, like, move on with my life as though I had never been this awful person? It really felt there was a lot of guilt about that and about this idea that not feeling upset by the thoughts said another thing about me, which was that, shouldn't they upset you? Think about what. What they are that should upset somebody. Come on.

B (24:45)

Yeah. Is there. It's almost like the upset O meter. And if it doesn't. If it doesn't hit this certain level, then, wow, you must really like this thought. Then if that's the case, you must want this or really accept this as being okay versus. Because when we work with people on accepting something being there, it's not that we're saying that it's okay. We're just saying it's just there.

A (25:09)

Right.

B (25:09)

Right.

A (25:10)

Yeah. And that. That was hard to learn because some of what I learned was that you had to accept that maybe you are a pedophile or you had to accept that maybe you do want to have sex with your mom. And I don't know if that's true. I do know that I need to accept uncertainty and I have. And I've embraced the idea that I can never really know anything and that helps me get through my day to day life. But I think what I really accepted was the idea that I'm gonna, that these thoughts will still come. I will still be triggered by things like they felt so deeply embedded in my brain. And really some of it is like, is it just a memory at this point? Point? I, I have a hard time distinguishing between like, am I remembering thoughts I've had before or is this a brand new thought that's triggering me right now? But they're all there.

B (26:03)

Yeah. And I like what you said there because, you know, I, I see the fields kind of maybe shifting a little bit, where in the old days we did a lot of maybe, maybe not still happens, obviously. But I do like that idea of uncertainty really being more of, I'm never going to have the absolute answer that I want for this thing versus I am this thing, you know, just so I, I, yeah, yeah, I, I'll accept that. OCD demands an answer for me of certainty that I will never be able to provide it. And I can live with that.

A (26:45)

Yeah.

B (26:46)

I can be with that.

A (26:47)

Yeah. And really what helped me was just this idea of I can't look so far into the future about any potential thing that could happen eventually. I'm like, I can only go day by day and sometimes really minute by minute of like, well, right now I'm not hurting anybody. It's like, get through the day, get through the next day. And that's the only way you can live your life to the fullest, is to have those fears in the back of your mind and say, I just need to live my life anyway. I have to leave the apartment, unfortunately.

B (27:26)

Yeah. And going outside and living your life can be a really difficult thing for a lot of people. Right?

A (27:35)

Yeah. I mean, kind of the biggest exposure because I had gotten to the point where I didn't want to go anywhere. I didn't want to be with anybody. TV was triggering, movies were triggering, reading was triggering. Like everything was triggering. And what gives my life purpose or, you know, part of what gives my life purpose is being with my family and friends. And I'm like, well, they, I don't deserve my company in a negative way.

B (28:12)

Sure. And you don't deserve theirs in a positive way. Yeah.

A (28:17)

It just felt like it was so tiring to be with them instead of. Instead of being a respite of, like, oh, I get to hang out with my mom. I love my mom. She loves me. Isn't this going to be a nice break for my thoughts? Oh, my God. No, it was not a break. And she noticed that I was very down and there was something wrong, but, like, there was no way I was going to tell her.

B (28:43)

And then you told the world because you wrote a book about it.

A (28:47)

Yeah, but I told her not to read it. Don't. Don't. Don't therapize me on that.

B (28:54)

So why a book? And why be this literal open book to the rest of the world about what's going on in your head?

A (29:04)

Well, why a book? I was an English writing major. Love to read, love books. I work with books now, so perfect medium for me at the time. So it's been out for a while. It was 2014 at the time. There weren't as many books as there are now. And that seems wild to think because it's. That's just a little over a decade. And especially when I started writing it and, like, actually, like, was working to get a publisher and stuff. That was even longer ago. I didn't see anything out there, you know, beyond the imp of the mind that really spoke about taboo thoughts and was, like, to the reader. And it wasn't from. From someone with lived experience. I'll say that. You know, it wasn't a therapist. It was someone who has ocd.

B (29:51)

Yeah.

A (29:51)

Who will say, hey, I went through this and it felt awful. And I know that you can get through it because I know it feels awful to you. And it ended up being for teens. I think that's a really critical time. Childhood as well. But I thought that was important because my. My teenage years were terrible for lots of reasons. One is no one invited me to homecoming. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Two, I had unwanted, intrusive thoughts the whole time. Maybe they could tell. Maybe they're like, she's not going to want to dance. She seems really in her head. She doesn't want to sit on a hay bale. But, yeah, that's what I. That's what I focused on. And it was meant to be for kids 13 and up. And then they said it was too explicit. So then it was 15 and up, and I'm like, oh, God, Okay. It's called explicit when I finally come out and say, like, these are my sexual interests. But I also talked about suicide and things like that. So, yeah, I just wanted to Help people. I wanted to share my story. And so it was kind of, you know, we called it part memoir, part self help because I shared aspects of my story and say, you know, I would say like, oh, I went on medication. And then I would kind of flip it around and say, maybe, maybe you're thinking about medication and here are all the kinds that might help. And you would talk to us. You know, I kind of go through the practical tips of all that. And then I had guest essays from teens because I wanted to get kind of a broader perspective from people. And actually there was only one person who had like the germ compulsion or like, or germ phobia and hand washing thing. So it was like actually harder to find anyone who could represent that.

B (31:54)

Which might surprise people. And yet for those of us who do this, are in the field or who have it though, easy to show on tv, not the most popular kind of ocd. Actually. The harm and the taboo really are in the lead, shall we say, of the way people become afflicted with ocd.

A (32:15)

Yeah, I, I think you're right. I think that's what people reach out to me, you know, and that's anecdotal, I guess, for my part. That's what people reach out to me about.

B (32:25)

Yeah, I can say that here at, at nocd, that those are far more common than are the. I just, you know, I have germs on my hands is. Is actually pretty low. Not that we don't get it. We do, but. But boy, is it the what if followed by worst case scenarios about me. Right. Or doing something to be harmful to others or harming myself in some way. And those are there. And then with that comes a lot of guilt and a lot of shame that a lot of people experience. And I'm sure that was a part of your journey of all of this as well. Having to deal with not only the, you know, we, we think of, I think the anxiety or the discomfort that OCD leads to, but it brings some other emotions along with it too. And shame and guilt and disgust and all sorts of things can play a big role in the lives of people.

A (33:23)

Huge. Yeah. Because, you know, I have had all kinds of obsessions, but this is the one I talk about the most, the taboo thing, because I think that there's so many people who still misunderstand it and people who think that it means that we're using the diagnosis to cover up our true nature or, oh, it's okay that I did something bad because it's just my mental illness. And that's really hard to push back against and not feel. To not feel like you're putting yourself out there in a bad way or in a scary way. I felt. You know, I talked about that, the shame and the guilt. I felt guilty to be around my family because I felt like they deserved to know the real me, that they thought they. They loved someone pure of heart. And here I was with, like, these dark, dark thoughts, and I felt so guilty because I'm like, they deserve to know the truth. They should be able to make their own decision on whether they want to love me or have me in their life. And I never thought that about when I was afraid of cancer or when I was afraid of being in a fire. I never thought, gosh, they. They sure deserve a better daughter or a better sister. I. I thought that about the pedophilia, about the incest, about the religious obsessions, and it just made it harder because when you need support the most is when you feel like you can't get it or ask for it. And I've shared about my sexual, intrusive thoughts, and I will say that in person. Anybody who knows me or loves me is like, oh, that's awful. I'm so sorry. They have never been like, whoa, hold up.

B (35:21)

You sure don't talk to her.

A (35:23)

Yeah, you pulled the wool over my eyes. I thought you were decent, and you're not. Like, everyone has just been, like, very, very sympathetic, empathetic, and supportive. The Internet is a different thing. And I know that we can't. Of course. I think, hopefully we all know that. That the Internet is a different thing. We don't even know if it's real people sometimes. But that's where I get the comments that you're just using this as an excuse. That's disgusting. That's not ocd. I know what OCD is. And that, of course, makes you feel bad. I mean, I think I'm at a point where I'm like, you can't shame me. I've already shamed myself. Go ahead and try. Like, I feel like I can kind of put myself out there, and it doesn't bother me as much. What hurts me is to see that that information is out there for someone, for, you know, the me of 20 years ago, for someone who does not know. And it hurts me to know that people think that. I just feel like we've done so much education, and it's still like, it's. Will it ever be enough? We have to just keep talking about it. And I. And you can Tell me too, statistics. Statistically speaking, I feel like. I know I felt more suicidal and more despair with these themes. And the shame and guilt that went on, went along with, just was harder on another level. And, you know, we tell people, OCD is ocd, it's all treated the same. I think that to a certain extent, that's a great message because it's true. ERP will work on taboo things. It's not like some untreatable, weird type of OCD that we can't touch with therapy. But it's also true that you need to be careful who you tell. It's also true that you need to research a therapist you go to that you're not going to someone who lists 25 things they treat and one of them happens to be ocd. And you go in and tell them, I'm afraid I'm going to hurt my baby. And they report you.

B (37:36)

Yeah.

A (37:36)

I mean, this is the reality of it. Like, we can have, you know, we're talking about the positive thinking posters, we can have the warm, fuzzy feelings and conversations about, it's all ocd. It's all, okay, let's just spread awareness and, and, you know, don't feel ashamed. And it, it doesn't matter. It matters. And I, I wish it didn't. And I wish that therapists, social workers, judges, lawyers, I wish that everyone knew that, like, this was a thing that didn't say something bad about you and that you can just reach out for help. You can do the, the thing that people say of like, just ask for help if you. It's okay. I wish we all could without the fear of something else happening.

B (38:25)

Wouldn't that be nice?

A (38:26)

That would be nice. And I mean, obviously people like you, and there are so many people who are really working to make that a reality, and that's why I talk about it too, is that I just want.

B (38:37)

People to know because it's also educating therapists. You know, there are still therapists, as, as you've said out there who will hear some of these stories and think, hospital, yeah, right. You know, or, boy, I don't want to talk to you. That's really terrible. Right. And even in our own field, we have people who need this education. Absolutely. This is not just for the masses outside of the, you know, whatever degrees of therapy are out there. This is also for people who are in this field to truly understand that. Because, like, I, I interviewed someone the other day for the podcast who's one of our therapists, and I asked them, how much did you study OCD and ERP in graduate school. And. And you're smiling because I think you might know what the answer is, which is not at all.

A (39:37)

Or maybe a day, half a day, maybe at most ocd, maybe not erp, but maybe like, oh, ocd.

B (39:45)

Yeah, yeah, maybe. And it'll probably be a few classic examples of what it will look like, and that will be it. So here's someone who's graduated from a program and has not been trained in what this is. And that's why we train so much here, right? That's why we do so much education, because we want not only every therapist who works for us to truly understand this, but we want others out there to understand it. We want people with OCD to know that there's a place that's there, that's listening, that understands. And what you've done by putting the book out and speaking about it also helps our mission too. And hopefully we help yours. So this is a great synergy to have between these two things.

A (40:34)

Yeah, I think I agree. Like, to have people with OCD and therapists work together, because, of course, therapists know a lot as long as they've been through all the training that you just talked about. It's also good to just hear from people with OCD to understand what it feels like. And not just, like, how we can treat the symptoms and how we can move through a program of exposures and response prevention, but, like, how does this feel? How does it affect your life? And the other kind of, like, more holistic approaches behind that of, like, how do you forgive yourself? And I don't really like to use that word for, but that's what I say a lot is like, I had to forgive myself for thoughts that I didn't want, and to tell myself, like, you didn't want those. It was okay. That I had to kind of get over that. So, like, therapist who can kind of help on all those, and maybe it's not the same person. Maybe you go to someone else for some of the other stuff.

B (41:33)

But are there things you wish people knew sooner about taboo, intrusive thoughts and ocd? You know, that, like, if you could wave this magic wand, what. What would you want people to truly understand about it?

A (41:47)

Well, I wish, of course I wish that we had always just known about it and that when I was nine years old, I could have told my parents, and they would have been like, huh, no problem there. We all have those thoughts. And there's an ERP therapist in town. I mean, of course that's not the case at all. And sometimes I tell people that even though I wish I hadn't gone 18 years before a diagnosis, I'm also glad that I didn't get the wrong care and as a child or, you know, because my parents wouldn't. They wouldn't have known what to do and they would have reassured me because that's what parents do.

B (42:24)

Sure.

A (42:24)

Sure. So yeah, I wish that people understood that. I wish that people knew that we probably all have these thoughts, but not everyone even realizes it because it's a fleeting thought that goes through their mind and they're not superior to us. In fact, we're better. No, I'm just kidding. But that, you know, we dwell on it and that it's not because it it means that we're capable of harming somebody. And in fact we're that the reason that we're dwelling on it so much is because we really, really don't want to hurt anybody or do anything that would upset our lives even more than it already has.

B (43:05)

Yeah. Do you have your book with you? I was one oh hey, look at that. There it is. I was wondering if you had a passage that you really think is pertinent to our discussion today that you might want to share with the world. The world at large. Who watches, of course, the get to Know OCD podcast.

A (43:29)

This is about to be the Therapist. I'm at the therapist and this is him starting to talk to me. Okay, okay, all right, he said as he flipped through the last few pages. Tell me why you're here. I had been chewing gum on the way to the appointment because my mouth was dry, so I took a tissue out of the box on the desk beside me, wrapped my gum in it, and then clutched the bunched up wad in my hand to absorb my nervous sweat. It's hard to talk about, I said, suddenly afraid I had waited all this time and wouldn't be able to tell my would be savior what he needed to save me from. I let's just say the article I identified with was called Thinking Bad Thoughts. Okay, okay, he said, nodding along patiently. There are three so called taboo obsessions. They fall under the categories of religious, violent, and sexual obsessions. Would you say your obsessions fall into one of these categories? Yes, I answered slowly. Religious and sexual. But not violent. Maybe it's because I've always been so good about sex and I wasn't going to have sex until I got married. I was always very into church. I began to cry softly. Warm salty tears were rolling down my cheeks and Coming to a point on my chin where they dripped off. I dabbed at them with my wadded up gum filled tissue, then grabbed a clean one. I can't tell anyone because they'll stop loving me if they know. My throat tightened and another hot tear escaped my eye and began to roll down my cheek. I know it's easy for me to say and I'm not telling you. You have to tell anyone, Dr. Grant said. But I am certain they would understand. They would still love you.

B (45:11)

Wow, that's great. Thank you.

A (45:12)

I don't know if it's true that there's three categories of taboo intrusive thoughts. Maybe that was the. The thinking at the time. Maybe it still is, I don't know. But I think that was partly coming from like, Lee Bear school of thought of like, these are the big. The big three. And then they get smaller and.

B (45:32)

Right, right.

A (45:34)

Thank you.

B (45:36)

I really appreciate you reading that. Thank you. That was. That's great. And I congratulate you on where you're at today. Compared to what it felt like when it started, I think it's wonderful.

A (45:47)

Thank you.

B (45:51)

Before we wrap up, there's people debating going to treatment, telling people about some of these intrusive thoughts that they have or images or urges. What do you want to say to them?

A (46:03)

I want to say that treatment is worth it and that there is help for you. And it might feel scary, but it will open up your life in amazing ways. And whatever you might be doing right now to keep your OCD at bay or to, you know, to make yourself feel better is I'm sure they know it's limiting their life. I will also say, realistically, make sure you're going to an OCD expert. I'm assuming that on your website you probably have some guidelines of questions to ask therapists. If not, they can go to iocdf.org There are things to ask someone and as long as you get a qualified person who can help you, there is hope. And you don't have to tell everybody. I mean, I know that different communities and different cultures and religions have different ideas about what's okay to talk about and share. You can write to me. There are ways that you can share things anonymously. And, you know, I think it's okay to also lurk. You don't have to follow certain Instagram pages or whatever. Like you can just look at them and read and feel a sense of community. And if you find any way to get to the conference, the OCD conference, or do any kind of thing like that in your own community. Community is so healing. It makes you feel less alone and it gives you new friendships and new relationships. I like some of my most meaningful relationships in my adult life or OCD people as I called them. Everyone else is a normie.

B (47:56)

Yeah. Thank you Allison for being here today. I really appreciate it.

A (48:01)

Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it too.

B (48:04)

And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out@nocd.com that's n o c d.com and if you like the get to Know OCD podcast, well, subscribe. We are on the NOCD YouTube channel. Allison told us great information today about parts of OCD that aren't as familiar to everyone and OCD does not ever have your best interest at heart. So my advice is, as always, be better to yourself than your OCD ever will be. Thanks for watching. We'll see you again.