B (3:49)

Cool. Well, we'll get into inventions later. That sounds fun, but. So 2017, you're diagnosed with OCD. How did you get to a point of even being diagnosed? And again, as much as you're willing to share, but what was kind of going on in your life that you thought, this is not going the way that I thought it would be going, or things are not quite right?

A (4:13)

Yeah. So there was something that sort of triggered me, but in general, my life, the context of my life at that moment was a lot of stress and anxiety and a lot of life transition. And then there was this thing that had triggered me and I didn't. And it felt very different. Like, I've always had a history of anxiety, but in that moment, it just felt like a different. Had a different flavor. It was like. It was intrusive thoughts, but I just didn't know what to call it. And so originally I was diagnosed with general anxiety disorder, as a lot of people are. Right. Yeah, it's one of those things that I'm like, I probably have that. But at the moment, it was like a misdiagnosis because I was like, well, this kind of feels different. And then I went to. I started doing research and trying to figure out, like, what I had, because I went to another therapist and they sort of misdiagnosed me as, like. It was a very interesting thing they said. They said I had, like, a fear of failure. And I think it was a lot. I think it was related to the content of my intrusive thoughts at that time that I was sharing with them. So that might have led them to think that. But. But basically I went to a few therapists and I wasn't really getting the relief. And I finally did some research and I found some chat rooms. And what they were describing was similar to what I had experienced. I was experiencing in that at that time. And I was so relieved that it had a name. So I was like, okay, now I have a name. Ocd. Like, what do I do? So then I went looking for ERP therapist. I will say before that moment, I think there was a time earlier in my childhood where I experienced ocd, but I didn't have a name for it. I was really young, and my dad would take me to church and then. And I heard, like, in church they'd say blasphemy is like, the worst thing you can do. And so I started having these intrusive thoughts around blasphemy. And I remember the compulsions I would do. I would read the Bible over and over. Like, once I would. I would have a thought, and then I would read the blood Bible and. And try to, like, you know, feel better about the thought. And I. I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my mom. I just kind of dealt with this on my own. Eventually it kind of went away, but when it came back, I was probably. I was like late 20s when it came back. And it was a different, um. And she's a. It was a different theme, a, like, different content when it came back.

B (7:04)

So you finally get diagnosed with OCD and you're introduced to exposure and response prevention therapy, which is a different type of therapy than any other therapy really out there. What were your thoughts initially when you heard about ERP and what you were going to go through for treatment?

A (7:22)

Well, it was a mixture, I will say. I should add. At first I was still skeptical that it was oce, even though I read. I had read the chat rooms and I felt like I could relate. I actually thought I had schizophrenia because I was like, well, these thoughts are very. They couldn't be my thoughts. And my brother has schizophrenia. So I was thinking that possibly it's something that runs in the family. And so I was still. I will say when I first found out about it, I was like, okay, I'm very desperate right now and I'm willing to try anything, but I have schizophrenia. You know, like, I was convinced that I had schizophrenia. So I was. I was very doubtful that it would help. But I was also, like, very. At that time in my life, I was very, you know, on. Desperate for some sort of relief. Also. I was. When I found out, like, what it was, I was. I was afraid because I didn't want to be with those thoughts. Like, the thought of being with those thoughts or addressing those thoughts or even there was some embarrassment too, like, around, like, addressing the thoughts or speaking the thoughts or sharing it with my therapist. Like, I didn't want to share that stuff, you know?

B (8:47)

Can I ask you. I. I've not asked anyone this question before, actually, now that I think about it, but would it have been easier for you? Easier might not even be the best word. So as I formulate this. But to have considered this schizophrenia almost in the idea that at least then that's the reason why these thoughts are. But might OCD have felt more like you were responsible for having the thoughts? Because one of the things I hear all the time is people feel so bad, or they think, why does it have to be this one? I don't understand why I'm torturing myself almost as this idea that they're making themselves have these thoughts. But if it was schizophrenia, they believe that it's something different. Right. Versus In. In both of them, the thoughts come. Right. So I was just curious if. If that might have been something I don't. And maybe you've not even thought of it that way. I don't know.

A (9:38)

But, yeah, I actually haven't thought about that. I think. I think that there's. There's so much misinformation about OCD that. And it felt so bad that I thought it couldn't. It's not that it was easier to say schizophrenia, but it just made more sense because.

B (10:00)

There you go.

A (10:00)

Yeah, I. I just felt like OCD is, you know, what you. What? I think the little knowledge we like popular knowledge on it is like, you know, being organized and liking things neat and tidy. And so I think I would just Couldn't contend with the fact that, like, it felt so. It just didn't feel like what I thought OCD was.

B (10:27)

Yeah.

A (10:27)

So it was probably easier for me to say schizophrenia. Yes.

B (10:30)

And I think OCD is probably a lot of what people don't think it is, because we just see in the media that it's washing your hands or straightening things. So when it does come to, maybe the intrusive thoughts harm thoughts or images or urges, people assume much different things because they don't know that OCD goes there too.

A (10:51)

Yeah, basically.

B (10:53)

Okay, all right, so now you get into erp. What's it like?

A (11:00)

Well, I mean, it was. It was a while ago, so I'm trying to take myself back to that place, but it was not a walk in the park. I mean, it was extremely hard. I. It was. I'm trying to think what kept me going, you know, because it was very, very hard. I think I. At some point, I started to notice some changes, and I was like, okay. Some things, this is. This is helping more than other things have helped. So I'm going to keep going and I'm going to trust it. I think I also had a really trusting relationship with my therapist. She was very good at not reassuring me, even though I tried so many ways of being reassured, and she just kept not doing it. And so I think that relationship really kept me going, but it was really hard. It was very counterintuitive. I wasn't used to leaning into discomfort like that, and I had to do that. I also felt like it was, in some ways a little isolating because there was. There's nobody in my fam. Other people in my family that have ocd. And, you know, as we're talking about these misconceptions, I really felt like I was going through it alone because there wasn't a lot of information outside of, like, the Internet, which was very helpful to find these communities. But, like, in my immediate circles, like, I really couldn't explain what I. That I had ocd, and I'm going through ERP therapy, and this is a really hard time for me right now. Like, there was really no one to, like, reach out to with that. So, like, I. I just was a very hard, hard time. But that said, again, leaning on my therapist and having. Having access to ERP even was extremely helpful.

B (13:00)

Of course, OCD doesn't go away, right?

A (13:04)

You.

B (13:04)

You still live with ocd, and so you go through therapy, and maybe that inventive side of you is like, all right, what am I going to do with this? Because you still have it. It's still there, right? I'm. I'm sure there's still obsessions, there's still urges to do compulsions. You took that and really did some cool stuff with it. So I'd love to hear about. How do you. How do you get out of therapy and then become the advocate that you've been and the author and. And the person who's now going to go from someone who's suffering from. To helping others to not suffer?

A (13:45)

Yeah, I mean, I. That's like. It's such a big question. I. I think for me, going through ERP therapy really changed me. It made me realize I was stronger than I thought I was.

B (14:04)

I like that. I like that.

A (14:05)

And it gave me tools not only to deal with the intrusive thoughts, but life. There is so much uncertainty in life. There's so much the unknown in life, and it was such a skill that I needed to have to continue on. Like you said, you know, you Always have ocd. And you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I know there's like studies about how OCD brains are structured diff slightly differently and whatnot. So like it's, it's always there and it can always come back with a new theme or new content. But after I dealt with that, that theme that I was dealing with, which was around schizophrenia, I, what was left was me really looking at, looking at my relationship to uncertainty, fear of the unknown, even self doubt, like my relationship to that in life. And there's different ways in which I do that. And one is I kind of try to infuse in this journal, but it's a perception, there's like a perception shift that happens and that's kind of where, and it's a daily practice for me, um, to build my capacity to deal with life. And it's messiness and it's uncertainty and not knowing. And for example, before I used to have, I used to have like a ten year plan. I, I, I broke it down for like what I have to do every month and what I have to do every year, like goals I had to have every year. And it went all the way up to 10 years. And I remember my dad saw it once, he was like, this is cr, like this is too, this is way too much. And I was like, it's, you know, I want, I, I want to know, like, I want to know what the future holds. I want to, I, you know, I didn't have the capacity for surprise and sort of just like things not working out the way you see that you would expect them to work out. And now, I mean, I don't recommend this for everybody, but now I pretty much see life and like next month, like what am I doing this month? Where do I see myself next month? It's, it's very much more in the moment and letting life happen to kind of like shape things. So.

B (16:51)

Awesome. So you have this now unstuck journal. Tell us about that and what you're hoping people will get out of it and what inspired you to, to write it in the first place.

A (17:08)

Yeah, well, I'll start with inspired me. So I know, I feel like CBT is a very like kind of popular form of therapy that maybe a lot of people who done talk therapy have been exposed to. And there's like journals out there, CPT journals. And I got one once because my friend recommended one and so I got it and I was working through and I was like, I feel like this is like it was, it was Helpful, but you know, for the way my mind is wired, I felt like it was missing something. And there aren't ERP guided journals, self guided. So that kind of inspired me to create something that wasn't there, which is a huge, which is a huge task. But as I said, I've been doing. Sharing resources for a while now. So I kind of have like, I kind of have like a. Like things that I've shared before that have worked for me that I think would have. Are helpful to include. And then I also, since I'm not a therapist, I partnered with a therapist. Just go through everything, make sure an ERP therapist. I just make sure that everything was in line and that it was staying. It had integrity and it was staying in line with the ERP process. But yeah, so that's what inspired me. And that was the process of creating the journal, basically over years of just like compiling resources and stuff.

B (18:55)

So you're inspired to do this and what do you hope people will get out of it? And what have you gotten out of it? Because I'm assuming you've utilized the journal yourself. So how has it helped you and how do you hope that it would help other people?

A (19:13)

Yeah, well, I really hope people. What, what it's done for me is it's helped me to zoom out. So there's a way in which, you know, once you're going through ERP and you're dealing with a particular, let's say, intrusive thought, it's very, you're very. Your world is kind of small and very focused on this, this thing. Um, but as you work through that, you know, your life is still waiting for you. And I think there's. For me, I had to learn to, to zoom out and focus on those values and building the life that I wanted to build.

B (19:55)

Okay.

A (19:56)

So having that balance of the bigger picture. So a lot of. So my journal, it. It goes through the ERP process and it has questions that guide you through that. But there's also paper pages that are like free. Right? Pages where you get to explore things that you. That bring meaning to your life, communicate with your inner child and look at ways that you can pursue things that you want without worrying about the outcome of how it might turn out. There's just different, like exercises that I hope will connect people to their values. One thing that I say in here is like OCD and anxiety makes your world small, but your values make your world big again. So it's really about making your world big again because you're so much more than your ocd. And even though it doesn't feel like that in the moment, and that just feels like your whole world, it's not. And so that's kind of what I'm hoping. It's. It's a process of first helping people kind of get unstuck by reminding them of the ERP process, and then a process of zooming out again and seeing what it is that makes. Helps them feel connected to themselves, to their life, to other people, to this world, and, you know, kind of refocusing on that.

B (21:29)

Yeah. Was it difficult for you or exciting or both, maybe, to reconnect to your values and not to live the life that OCD was wanting you to live?

A (21:47)

So at first it's hard. It was hard because pretty much OCD is like. It, like, demands so much of your attention and it's, like, screaming at you like it's the most important thing. And so I think it takes a lot of strength and courage to have that happen and still take action towards something bigger than your ocd. And it doesn't have to be big big. It could be, you know, just going. Getting out of bed and going to the gym or just getting out of bed, whatever.

B (22:21)

Sometimes that's the best we can do. Right.

A (22:23)

You know, it doesn't have to be big big, but, like, I think it's. It's a muscle that you have that I had to practice. So, yes, it was very hard in the beginning, and sometimes it can still be hard when I'm having, like, an episode, but it gets. I feel that it gets easier. You get momentum through action. So to consistently moving towards what makes you feel connected, I feel like it. It brings momentum. So it does get easier over time.

B (23:01)

Does your life feel that way, too? Do things seem to feel like they get easier over time for you or. And maybe instead of. Or. And are there still days that things are challenging?

A (23:16)

Yeah. I think my life is like waves, or. I don't know if waves is a good way to describe it, but it's. It's just like, you know, like, ups and downs. I think there are times when it is easier and then there are times where there are challenges. I will say, though, personally, I've not experienced the level of distress I had when I first had ocd.

B (23:42)

Oh, good.

A (23:43)

Because I feel like I have the tools now. I think there's a difference from having. From someone who has no tools to someone who has some of these tools now and has worked consistently to build the capacity to hold it. So I feel like I've Built my capacity up to hold it more so when it arises. It's still hard, but I have a bigger capacity than I did, let's say, in 2017, when I had no tools and I thought I had schizophrenia. But I do think it is a life practice, and there can, you know, still be hard days.

B (24:23)

Sure. I like, too, that you had said that you had developed this with a clinician. What was it like to have that pairing on the, you know, person who's experienced this in the real life world, the person who maybe specializes in treating this? And how did you kind of come to agreements on what would go into the journal? And. And, you know, were there. Were there also any, like, stuck points sometimes, you know, because I. I can think of myself as a therapist. Oh, I really want to do this. But the person I'm working with. Yeah, that. That wasn't my thing, though. I don't know. So how was that collaborative experience?

A (25:03)

Well, it was actually. So I. I did the whole journal. I kind of created the whole thing. And so it was. It was done. And then I had this therapist come in, and over a process of a few weeks, we were workshopping it and going line by line. And it was extremely helpful because there were, for example, terms that I would use, and they would be like, you know, I don't think this is the term you should use for so and so reason. You know, avoid these words. And so there was ways in which I was thinking, because I'm very much thinking of my own experience and my personal experience with ocd, which it's tempting to think that everybody has that same experience by, you know, it's not. So it was great to have this person come and sort of balance that out, because I'm very much speaking from my experience, and then they can come in and say from a more clinical experience of what's. What should be included, what shouldn't be included. So, yeah, it was very. They. They. I felt like they really trusted, you know, all that said, too. They really trusted my experience and how I went through. And one thing I was very concerned about and was. And I didn't want to trigger anybody, and.

B (26:29)

No. Yeah.

A (26:30)

You know, so there was a lot of that. And so it was very. It was really good to bring this therapist in to kind of make sure that, you know, that wasn't happening and make sure that there's guardrails in places and guidelines on how to use the journal and whatnot. OCD is a tricky thing. You know, it can always find some way to, you know, twist Something.

B (26:54)

So did you have that for yourself? Where was there ever maybe a, a section or a chapter you were thinking, I'm going to put that one off because I don't know if I'm ready to go into that one yet or.

A (27:08)

Yeah, yeah, I think there were some things. I think there were more things I wanted to put in it, but I also wanted to make it easy and quick to use.

B (27:18)

Sure.

A (27:19)

Yeah, there were, there were some, something I think with this journal too. There's some. Like I said, there's a lot of. There's guidance and there's like, you know, like for example, only, you know, it's quick, it's quick sessions. It's not something to be done compulsively, I guess basically like it's, it's, you know, 10 minute, 15 minute sessions of, of writing and guided questions to kind of keep you on track. So. Yeah.

B (27:59)

That'S awesome. How has the reception of it been and what kind of things do you hear from people who have it and who use it?

A (28:08)

Yeah, so I forgot to mention my process in doing this, but I didn't want to go to the. Into the nitty gritty of please, please. Product development. But it was tested beforehand. So I went through and I had people with OCD before I, I had the final, you know, journal. I had people with OCD use it and work through it and I got feedback from them and then I reiterated and make a. Made adjustments. So there was that first group of people who used it and then now the reception has been really good and positive. There's been a few tiktokers who've reached out and said they want to try it and some have reviewed it and posted. You could see it on TikTok. And it's. That makes me so happy because you just don't know until you put something, something out there what, how it will be received. And so it makes me very happy that people have. It's been received positively.

B (29:14)

Good. And do you still use it yourself? Do you find it still helpful to you or.

A (29:25)

So that's a good question. It's been a few years that I've developed this. Maybe or like a year or two. Two years. I think for me it's a process that's automatic now in my mind.

B (29:36)

There you go.

A (29:36)

Okay, so. And that's kind of the goal of the book, of the journal actually. Once you've done it enough times, it can be something that you kind of walk through automatically. So it's, it's, it's sort of like second Nature now to go through. But I. I find the free write questions that I was mentioning earlier. I still do that because that's a life. That's a. For me, it's just like life work to continue to check in with myself about what's bringing me meaning, where do I want to put my energy and my focus away from anxiety. And so that's kind of like a constant for me.

B (30:24)

That's awesome. It's nice, isn't it, when your treatment can become almost automatic and you can just follow through on these things now and have the confidence in knowing this is what you do in these situations and how you flow through these situations.

A (30:42)

Yeah, I use it sometimes as a reminder. Like, if I do forget the steps, I go and I look at it and I can be reminded of them. But yeah. Yeah, definitely. Just sort of second nature now.

B (30:56)

Cool. How is OCD now? What kind of role does it play in your life? And how do you. How do you live with OCD instead of feel ruled by ocd?

A (31:10)

Yeah. So I've had long periods of relief, and I notice when I am stressed or there's like a transition, a huge transition, it comes up, and anxiety comes up in general, but the OCD will start to come up and it's. And I use my. My tools and, you know, do whatever I need to do to get through that day. But it's not. It's not the. When it first. When I first was experiencing it, it was such a big part of my life. Now it's not so much. It's very much like. It's something that happens from time to time, kind of. Kind of thing. It takes up less space, I guess, in. In my life. In fact, it's. I now focus on sort of other things that I'm working through. Like, I started EMDR therapy for some other stuff, and it's. And now I have space to kind of explore, like, what else. What are some other areas that I want to sort of, like, deepen and get more clarity as to, like, who I am and stuff like that. But, yeah, it's there, but it's not, like, front and center.

B (32:43)

Awesome. That's always so nice to hear and I think, inspiring for people who listen to this, that as much as OCD right now seems front and center in your life, there are so many people who have put it on the back burner and it sits in the back row or the backseat of the car, and it. It's not that it's not there, but it just doesn't really have to have the influence over you anymore that it once did.

A (33:10)

Right. Exactly.

B (33:15)

What's. What's next? I, We. I. I want to go back to at the beginning. You said you're kind of an inventor. What, what's coming up next? What's exciting for you? What do you. What are you looking forward to?

A (33:27)

So I'm. I'm not sure what's next. I like to make things. I like to make products. My dad was really big on that stuff. He created a product that was very successful and he kind of like, I'm very inspired by him and like. And I kind of, like, do that now. And so I always have random ideas for things not always related to anxiety, which is nice.

B (33:56)

Good.

A (33:57)

But I think the next thing that I'm looking into is connection. Whatever I do, it's focusing on connection and connecting with other people. I feel like that's something that I've personally dealt with, like, isolation and, you know, friend groups as an adult can be hard. Like, you know, making new friends and just being, you know, social media and all this stuff and feeling very disconnected. So I'm focused on something that can help people feel more connected and embodied. Embodiment is something. A space that I'm looking into more. I think with anxiety. Before, it was really hard for me to be in my body because it was a. It was a turbulent place with a lot of sensations that I didn't want to feel and whatnot. But now I'm really leaning more into that, like, being in my body. Meditation helps me a lot for that, helps a lot with that. And yeah, I. I don't have an exact product, but there's just, like, different directions I want to go. And I'm also working to get this journal on Amazon because right now it's on. I sell it on my website and on TikTok, but I'm trying to get it on Amazon now. So, yeah.

B (35:33)

Awesome. There are people out there who are debating treatment. If they should open up to someone, chat with someone. What's your advice for them as they're contemplating going through all the things that you went through in order to get on the other side?

A (35:54)

Yeah. I think you don't have to know the outcome per se. Like, for example, I was always wondering, like, if treatment, is this going to work for me? It works for. Maybe. I've heard, you know, stories about working for other people, but sure. What. But maybe it won't work for me. And a lot of doubt. I'd say in some ways that's part of the ocd. You Know, putting all of this doubt in you. But I would say trust is a big thing. Like just trust. If you go through the. The process, something will happen, some shifts will happen, changes in your relationship to your OCD will happen. So even when you don't, when it's not feeling good, when you're in therapy, you know, take, you know, I would say it's worth trying and doing and it's going to take a lot of trust in the beginning without knowing if it's going to help you or not. You know, like, if you have those concerns, like if this is going to help me, I would say for me, I feel like that was the ocd. So I would say just go and do it.

B (37:14)

Imagine ocd. Throw some doubt shade on OCD treatment. What do you know? Yeah, shocker. Absolute shocker in that experience.

A (37:23)

Don't doubt on anything, honestly.

B (37:24)

Yeah. You talk to about people can get your stuff on your website, on your TikTok. Where. Where would they find those? Where. Where should they go?

A (37:37)

So the unstuckjournal.com okay. Is where you can find it on my website also. That's TikTok handle as well. And then I will hopefully send the link for the Amazon and I can also send links for Bullet Journal, the website as well.

B (37:55)

Fantastic. That's great. What last words, inspiring things. Do you want to leave with our audience before we sign off for today?

A (38:07)

I guess one thing I. That was kind of surprising to me after I was able to like get through ERP treatment, I kind of felt in some ways grateful for the experience that I went through, because in my personal experience, it gave me tools that I felt like I needed. Like I shared about me being very. Needing to know what's going to happen in life in general. And OCD really humbled me in many ways and, um, and really showed me the human experience of you just don't know. Like, you can't have certainty. There's a lot of things you can't have certainty about. A hundred percent certainty about. And that's very human and taught me a lesson, you know, I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's hard, sure. But you know, there might. You might surprise yourself and there might be a moment when the dust settles that you actually feel grateful that you have. You went through this experience and you gained a new perspective and new tools as well.

B (39:31)

Awesome. Well, Alexis, thank you so much for being here today. We really appreciate it and your time and your contributions to the OCD community because we all have a similar goal. I think which is to end the suffering that OCD causes in the world. So thank you for being a partner in that. We really appreciate it.

A (39:51)

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation.

B (39:55)

Yes, me too. It's great. And thank all of you for joining us. And if you like this podcast, well, subscribe to the NOCD YouTube channel where you can get more of the get to know OCD podcast delivered right to you. And if you're looking for help for OCD related conditions, check us out at nocd. Com. That's no C D Com. There'll be more episodes coming, so stay tuned. Thank you for listening and be good to each other. Thanks for watching.