Living 32 Years Without Knowing I Had OCD

Summary

Podcast Summary

Get to Know OCD – "Living 32 Years Without Knowing I Had OCD"

Host: Dr. Patrick McGrath, NOCD Chief Clinical Officer
Guest: Chelsea Risko
Date: October 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features Chelsea Risko, who shares her experience living with undiagnosed OCD for 32 years. Chelsea candidly discusses her journey from childhood, through various life milestones, to finally being diagnosed and treated for OCD as an adult. With humor and vulnerability, she describes the variety of OCD themes she's battled, her path to finding hope and recovery through Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP) therapy, and how this journey has shaped her empathy and advocacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chelsea’s Story and OCD Discovery

• Late Diagnosis & Lived Experience
  • Chelsea didn't know she had OCD until age 32. She describes her childhood and early adult life as living with a "low hum" of anxiety and fear without understanding the cause.
  • "I've had every theme. I literally, like, you could name a theme and I would tell you a moment in which I had it, because OCD has jumped and jumped and jumped and jumped trying to get me. OCD is not original. It's just wearing a different mask and asking a different question that might trigger you." (00:00)
• Pivotal Moment: Suicidal OCD
  • In the fall of 2021, Chelsea experienced vivid and frightening intrusive thoughts related to suicide, prompting her to seek help.
  • She called the suicide helpline (988) and, after being guided through anxiety management, began Googling her symptoms, eventually discovering an article about "suicidal OCD" by NOCD.

Diagnosis and Recovery Process

• Validation and Professional Support
  • Chelsea scheduled a free call with NOCD and was reassured by their intake specialist, which led to therapy and a formal diagnosis.
  • ERP therapy was life-saving but intimidating at first, requiring her to face fears rather than seeking certainty.
• Progress Marked by Data
  • Chelsea notes a 90% reduction in her OCD scores and describes herself as “living subclinical,” having learned to recognize and dismiss OCD’s voice.

Retrospective Understanding & OCD Themes

• Childhood Manifestations
  • Chelsea recalls intense fears of death at age five and describes compulsive behaviors related to seeking reassurance from loved ones.
• Major Life Events as OCD Triggers
  • On her wedding day, she experienced relationship OCD, seeking constant reassurance from friends and her soon-to-be husband.
  • Motherhood and postpartum periods were also key themes, with magical thinking and fears about harm.

On Living with Doubt and the Nature of OCD

• The Game of Certainty
  • Chelsea discusses the “game” OCD plays, emphasizing its relentless doubt and the illusion of certainty.
  • "OCD is called the doubting disorder. You can't give it an answer because it will doubt every answer you give it, even though it demands you to give it an answer that's true and real and a hundred percent." – Dr. McGrath (22:23)
  • Chelsea’s turning point was realizing she’d never appease OCD and choosing to endure discomfort for eventual freedom.
  • "I'd rather focus on fighting this thing and hating those moments for a little while so then I can have freedom." (23:24)

Advocacy for ERP

• ERP as the Gold Standard
  • Despite community debates about therapeutic approaches, Chelsea affirms ERP’s effectiveness, honesty about its challenge, and the necessity of advocating for it.
  • "It is hard. It is hard. I will absolutely validate that... Living, when you are doing compulsions to survive, living, is freedom from OCD." (24:02)
• Tips for Others
  • Encourages seeking help and warns against “quick fixes” and unproven remedies, urging connection to trained professionals and reputable resources.

Addressing Common Misconceptions

• OCD Isn’t a Superpower
  • Both Chelsea and Dr. McGrath critique the idea that OCD is helpful or desirable, emphasizing the suffering involved and distinguishing personal growth from the disorder itself.
  • “The getting through it. But that was me. I did that. OCD had nothing to do with me overcoming OCD." (28:54)
• No “Easier” Subtypes
  • Reflection on how every OCD theme is uniquely tormenting, with no “easier” type, reinforcing solidarity among sufferers.

Living in Recovery – Life Changes & Advocacy

• Empathy and Advocacy
  • Chelsea describes increased empathy and a motivational shift to support others who struggle in silence, highlighting the importance of community and sharing stories.
• Misunderstanding from Others
  • Touches on difficulties with non-physical (mental) compulsions being misunderstood and the lack of visible symptoms creating challenges with employers and peers.
• The Importance of Values
  • Advocates aligning actions with personal values rather than OCD’s demands:
  • "I'm in the driver's seat and I get to drive what life looks like. I get to make decisions, value-based decisions." (44:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Discovering Her Diagnosis (00:00):
  "I did not know I had OCD up until about three years ago. So I've lived my entire life with it."

• On ERP Therapy (24:02):
  "Living, when you are doing compulsions to survive, living, is freedom from OCD."

• On Fighting for Freedom (23:24):
  "I'd rather focus on fighting this thing and hating those moments for a little while so then I can have freedom."

• On Advocacy and Empathy (32:04):
  "I have so much more empathy for those who struggle with mental health... I don't want anyone to feel like they're alone in this, because OCD will run with that and will isolate the person and make them feel like they can't share."

• On Intrusive Thoughts (19:20):
  "My goal was to not have intrusive thoughts anymore. I laugh now because I'm like, oh, sweet girl, that's not reality."

• On Misconceptions (28:54):
  "The getting through it. But that was me. I did that. OCD had nothing to do with me overcoming OCD."

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00: Chelsea recounts not knowing she had OCD for 32 years
• 06:43: First diagnosis following a mental health crisis (suicidal OCD)
• 12:22: Reflection on how the diagnosis explains childhood and adulthood struggles
• 15:28: Using acceptance of uncertainty to disarm OCD
• 18:27: Disconnection from intrusive thoughts and the importance of recognizing OCD’s “voice”
• 23:24: Choosing ERP and focusing on long-term freedom over short-term relief
• 24:02: Endorsing ERP despite its difficulty
• 28:32: Addressing misconceptions about OCD making people “better” or being desirable
• 32:04: Empathy, advocacy, and the need for community
• 38:03: Challenges with invisible, mental compulsions and workplace misunderstandings
• 44:00: Using personal values to navigate recovery
• 46:14: Chelsea’s final advice on seeking help and professional support

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Chelsea’s Advice for Listeners

• Don't be afraid to seek help because you think your OCD is "too bad"; professionals have heard it all and want to help.
• ERP is difficult but transformative—true living is found in breaking free from OCD’s grip, not in temporary compulsions.
• Shun quick fixes or unproven remedies; seek out reputable therapists and resources such as NOCD or IOCDF.
• Recovery is possible, and no theme disqualifies anyone from hope or healing.

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Where to Find Chelsea

• Instagram: @the_ocd_girly
• Upcoming appearances: IOCDF Faith and OCD Conference

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Closing Reflection

This episode offers a deeply personal, honest, and practical look at living with OCD, finding hope in evidence-based treatment, dismantling harmful stereotypes, and building an empathetic community. Chelsea’s story is a resource for anyone curious about real-life OCD, the power of therapy, and the transformative journey toward recovery.

Transcript

[Chelsea Risko]

I did not know I had OCD up until about three years ago. So I've lived my entire life with it. I've had every theme. I literally like, you could name a theme and I would tell you a moment in which I had it, because OCD has jumped and jumped and jumped and jumped trying to get me. OCD is not original. It's just wearing a different mask and asking a different question that might trigger you. Another part of my recovery was I got tired of playing the game of I'm never going to have an answer, I could try my hardest, and I'll never be able to appease this ever. So if that's the answer is, I'm just running towards answers for the rest of my life and I'm absolutely just hating every moment of it. I'd rather focus on fighting this thing and hating those moments for a little while so I can have freedom. I am thankful that I experienced ocd and I will tell you why. Because it has taught me that I am so much stronger than anything that I could face in this life. And when I've spent 32 years in fear of everything, I would absolutely go through that journey again to get where I am today.

[NOCD Representative]

Whether you realize it or not, you probably know someone with obsessive compulsive disorder, or maybe you love someone with ocd and if those two don't fit you, you might be the person with obsessive Compulsive disorder. Because of this, OCD awareness is so personal for all of us. We hope that raising awareness will bring hope to everyone and their friends and their families who are affected by obsessive Compulsive Disorder. When we recognize what OCD really is, it offers us a couple of options. We can see the signs in ourselves and others much quicker that can help to end a great deal of suffering. NOCD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider, and I'm honored to lead a team of licensed clinicians who are specially trained to accurately diagnose OCD and provide the treatment of choice, exposure and response prevention so that we know that we can give people the lives that they want to live and help them not live the lives that OCD wants them to live. In addition to that, for ocd, it means applying the work that we do to other conditions that often come along with obsessive compulsive disorder, such as body focused, repetitive behaviors, tics hoarding, anxiety disorders, mood conditions, trauma, and even body dysmorphic disorder. If any of these are things that are affecting you or your Loved ones or family, know that help is available. If you're looking for help, you can check us [e-mail] that's n o c d dot com. Our goal is simple, to make sure that nothing, not ocd, not stigma, not misconceptions, gets in the way of you living the life you want. You deserve to focus on things that bring you joy and meaning. Helping you is just personal to us. It's what we do.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Hi everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, Chief Clinical Officer for NOCD and your host. Thanks for joining us today. Really appreciate it. If you're looking for help for OCD, check us [e-mail] today I have the honor of chatting to Chelsea Risko. Hi Chelsea. We had a lovely chance to chat with each other at the International OCD Foundation Conference and. And I'm excited to be here with you today to talk about all things OCD and was wondering if you could tell everybody a little bit about you and what's going on in your life and what brings you here to the podcast. That would be great.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we did run into each other. I have been wanting to thank you in person for a long time. So I got that opportunity and I'm very thankful they invited me on here to share my story. So my name is Chelsea. I am 35, I live in Idaho, which is not Iowa or Ohio, but is in fact Idaho, which is kind of a combination.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

No, no, it's not a combination.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, something like that. It was very hard to explain it to people at the OCD conference, but we got there. We got there. I've been married for 14 years to a man that I met at a young age and we fell in love and made this beautiful life. We have a seven year old son. Son. And in my off time, not working at a community college, which is my. My job job, my other job includes what I call chicken tending, which is not to be confused with chicken tenders, but taking care of chickens, which I really enjoy, and also gardening. So I'm kind of a true Idahoan with livestock and gardens. Although, fun fact, I am growing some potatoes, but I could not find you a potato field around me if I wanted to. So really there's a little debunk.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Fun fact, we've been sold a lie. You're telling us about the number of potatoes in Iowa or Idaho?

[Chelsea Risko]

I believe so.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Or Illinois or Indiana or whatever state you're in.

[Chelsea Risko]

Wherever I am.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Thank you. That was A fun. That was fun play on there. Now, do the chickens you're tending become chicken tenders, or are they just purely egg laying friends for you?

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, no, we have not gotten into the. What they call processing chickens because I will probably cry. You will cry, and my OC will probably freak out about how I'm a monster right now. They just sit in our backyard and live their happy lives and give me eggs. So they do pay their dues, but that's as far as that goes.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

So stealing their eggs is fine. Processing them, not fine. I just. I like to know where OCD ends.

[Chelsea Risko]

Clearly. Clearly it all makes sense. Obviously, you get it.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Well, what a fun segue, right? I mean, isn't it funny, the rules, And I know you've talked about this in some of your posts that OCD sets up, like, why this thing is totally fine, but this other thing is like, no go at all. Right. It just. It loves to do things.

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, yeah, rules exist, but yet they don't. It's very hard to follow.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

So, as much as you're willing, you tell us your story, you've got the OCD girly Instagram account and you post a lot there. What was the impetus for that? And we'd love to hear just a little. As much as you're willing to share about your life with ocd and you know, how you went from the first diagnosis to where you are today. A mom, a chicken raiser, someone who lives in a state that starts with I. All those fascinating things.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah. So, fun fact, I did not know I had OCD up until about three years ago. So I've lived my entire life with it. I would say it was kind of more of a low hum, but there was definitely some big moments in my childhood and young adult life where I didn't know what I was experiencing and had some really traumatic, I would call them experiences within my own brain and just fear and just feeling completely overwhelmed. And so I didn't get on the radar, really to think that it could be OCD or anything like that. My parents really didn't do a lot to. To find a solution. They just would do their best and parent me to, you know, find calm and. And everything will be okay and it's fine. And so that was a lot of my childhood. What happened is leading up to some big events, which will probably. I'll have a few, like, big milestone moments we'll talk about, but I'll get to the good part, which is when I found out, and that was when I was experiencing suicidal OCD in the fall of 2021, and it was the most terrifying moment of my entire life. It was the first time.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Go in with a bang on that one, huh? I mean, wow.

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, my gosh. Right? Right. I mean, now I can name all the themes that I experienced in, you know, the 32 years prior to that, but, man, that one, it shook me to my core. And I. In that day, I remember feeling so, so scared and unsure of what was even happening. Knowing that I loved my life. I loved being a mom. I love my job, I love my home. Like, there's so many things absolutely worth living for that I just couldn't imagine ever feeling like I'd want to escape. And then having this thought of, well, what if. What if. What if you wanted to because you could? And I just remember how vivid that thought was. And I called 988. I called the suicide helpline because I was so concerned and fearful of what I might do because I've just had never had a thought like that. Luckily, the person who answered the call was so understanding and so great at what they were doing that they said, you know, you're not a danger to yourself. It sounds like you're really having some anxious thoughts. And I'm going to coach you through the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method, and I'm going to encourage you to try and find help for your anxiety. And I was like, okay. But of course, OCD was like, no, she's wrong. You're definitely a threat to yourself. Of course. So I started Googling what even I was experiencing. And I remember, like, vivid as day. I remember what the screen looked like. I remember I was standing. I remember everything I put in. You know, why would I think about suicide if I don't want to die or, you know, I don't want to follow through with that. And there was an article by no CD that showed up and said, suicidal ocd. And I was like, okay. And I just scrolled past because I'm.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Like, obviously that's a lie. Yeah, Dumb. Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah. Like, I've never. I mean, I'm probably the grossest OCD person that exists. Like, I. I would make a lot of, you know, our classic OCD sufferers feel very uneasy because of how gross I feel that I could be considered in the rules of, you know, contamination. And. And so I was like, there's just no way. And I kept scrolling and kept scrolling and nothing made sense. So I was like, okay, I'm going to go back and read that first one. And everything clipped in that moment. And I was in full compulsion mode, full, just overwhelming anxiety, ocd, you know, now looking back and you know, clicked on free call as fast as I possibly could. Could got on with the, I'm not sure what the term was, but it was someone who just kind of said like, hey, so glad that you're like reaching out.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

One of our intake specialists. Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yes, there we go. Intake specialist. So I had an intake specialist encourage me, make me feel very seen and very heard and not like I had to validate what I was experiencing at all and to really prep me for my first knee of my therapist. And I got connected with a therapist and everything changed after that. I mean, it was terrifying hearing that I needed to do ERP as, as the solution because of course it, it's so like counterintuitive to what you need to do to feel better is to lean in and face those things. But it saved my life. It absolutely saved my life. And going through that, of course more themes came, but as they continue to come, I could see, see the strength that I was building. I could see the clarity I had and what OCD was and I could hear it clearly, you know, in those thoughts and was able to label them and not engage at all. And now here I am three years later and I've done my scores on nocd, which I love that I've been able to see my scoring and I'm down 90%. Like, that's massive. 90%. I'm living subclinical. I'm like, I'm in active recovery. I. To a normal, you know, to, to a clinician. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be within the category of having, you know, ocd. And of course I still know the voice of it and it's trying to chat at me. And there's days where if I'm sick, you know, like, I know it's patterns now, I know it's game and I play the game right back. And so I'm just super thankful that my journey has come to this point. I mean, a lot has happened in the three years that I've had my diagnosis, but my life has completely turned around and I know, like true peace now. I feel.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Did getting that diagnosis explain to you a lot about your life prior to the diagnosis too?

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, absolutely. I, I share on my Instagram some of my main, like, high level experiences and you know, from being five years old and being so afraid of death, death of myself as a young person, not being able to experience life or death of my parents, or the people that I love and the things that I would do. I remember vividly running after my mom and my stepdad as they were pulling out the driveway, going to, you know, some roadie over in Montana. And I remember thinking, if I don't go with them, they're going to die, and if they die, I'm going to be with them, because I can't. I can't not be with them.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Sure.

[Chelsea Risko]

I'd rather just also die. And so I remember, like, being like, wow, I'm five. Why am I thinking these kinds of things? Like, my friends are not thinking these kinds of things. And still, you know, didn't really put up enough red flags, I guess, to get help then. But going through another really big highlight is my wedding day. I spent six months of my life questioning if I should be getting married to my now husband.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Little relationship OCD there, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

And I. Oh, man. I. The reassurance that I would get. I swear, I don't know how my friends put up with me, because I would ask and ask and ask and ask, and they would give me the best advice they could, but it was never enough. To the point where on my wedding day, my husband and I are taking pictures. I'm in my wedding dress, he's in tux, We've got guests arriving. I'm like, I stopped the photographer, and I say, can I please just talk to you for a second, honey? And I take him to the side, and I go, are we really supposed to get married? Like, are we meant for each other? And he just looks at me, and I remember his face, and he's like, pretty sure. And I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna ride that. And we're just gonna get this thing done.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Let's do this.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah. And then one of my bridesmaids, same thing. She could see that I was panicking. She actually wrote a blog about it back in the day. I mean, this is back in 2011. She wrote a blog about her experience with helping me through ocd. And it's so interesting to look back on because she was, like, my friend was struggling to feel certain of this being the plan for her life. And I watched her be brave and walk down that aisle. So even before I was diagnosed, there was something in me that really wanted to fight against whatever this thing was that was making me so afraid. And I walked down that aisle, and I got married. And like I said, We've been together 14 years, and we have a beautiful marriage in life. And I love that. I Get to throw that in OCD space, you know?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah. And then it'll say, well, you might get divorced tomorrow, though. So, you know.

[Chelsea Risko]

Exactly. Exactly. You never know. Maybe.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Maybe. Right. Maybe.

[Chelsea Risko]

The other thing is he might die. I just want to throw that out there as a possibility.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

My wife died, so. Sure. Your. Your husband could die. Yeah. Why not? Totally. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It could happen. Sure.

[Chelsea Risko]

Not outside the realm of possibility.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

I've lived it. Not outside the realm of possibilities. Yeah, exactly. And you know what? We live with that doubt, and we live with that uncertainty every single day.

[Chelsea Risko]

Exactly. And anything. I always think to myself, when my OCD is really running rampant, I will stop and be like, you know, ocd. There could also be a meteor that hits our house right now. There could also be a blood clot that kills me right now. Like, there's so many. It kind of helps me remember. There's so many things. I'm.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

One of your chickens could attack you.

[Chelsea Risko]

Exactly. I mean, they could give me a sickness. I don't know. There's so many things that I am not focusing on, and it kind of, like, almost. I don't know, like, glitches OCD to be like, well, I can't think of all those things. And I'm like, well, then let's just move forward, because we're not sure about.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Anything, since OCD loves a stressor and big events. Did it also grab onto having your son?

[Chelsea Risko]

It did, yeah. Um, that was a big one with. This is such an interesting one. I remember again, of course, I think ocd, like, has, like, this fun thing where it, like, really likes to just, like, put on a show when it, like, throws a really good theme to you.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

So it really sticks. And I remember being on the Oregon coast. My son was 2 months old. We had driven over. We had a full trip. Like, I had not experienced anything. No postpartum. I was feeling, you know, super good. I was loving motherhood. We get to the Oregon coast. I'm up one night, like, taking care of him, and I'm watching Disney Channel, and I all of a sudden notice, wow, the two Disney Channel shows I've just watched, One of the parents are dead. And then I was like, oh, of course it's because this is a sign. Magical thinking that I'm gonna die now. And I remember, like, saying goodbye to him in that. Like, in that moment and being like, I love you so much. I hope your dad, like, can. Can, like, figure it out. Like, I'm just so hopeful that everything will be okay. Like, and so yeah. Again, like, it's. I. I really don't mean to say this in, like, a. I don't know, negative way, but, like, I've had every theme. I literally, like, you could name a theme and I would tell you a moment in which I had it, because OCD has jumped and jumped and jumped and jumped trying to get me, of course. And I now can look back and be like, wow, every single one. Pocd. When you have a baby and you're caring for him or her, like me babysitting my nieces, like, it comes up and if you don't experience it, you don't fully understand it. But, like, OCD is not original. It's just wearing a different mask and asking a different question that might trigger you.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah. That's why sometimes. Sometimes people will say. And you're kind of living proof on this. Is the treatment different for the subtype? No, because it's all the same thing. It's all doubt and uncertainty. It's just going to pick on various things to try to win this round. Right. Oh, well, if that didn't work, maybe you want to molest children. Oh, that didn't work. Maybe you want to kill yourself. Oh, that didn't work. Maybe you're actually not heterosexual. If that, you know, whatever it might be. Right? Yeah, y. Yep.

[Chelsea Risko]

Had that one. Anytime I have a dream that's questionable, my OCD will be like, that means. And I'm like, oh, no, it doesn't mean anything. Like, these thoughts don't mean anything about me. They're static. They're commercials. They're. I mean, once I feel like that's the thing that changed the game for me is when I finally disconnected myself from my thoughts.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

That's amazing.

[Chelsea Risko]

And I also learned OCD's voice and those two things. It's a lot quicker now for me to see it and stop it right away. And for a while, you know, I would get caught in it, and finally, you know, maybe a day or two or a week later, I'd be like, oh, dang it, ocd. You got me again.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

But now it's like I've leaned in enough to listen and be like, let me take this data and make it part of my recovery so that I'm in control.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Right.

[Chelsea Risko]

And I'm the one who's choosing not to react when these things because they're going to happen.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

That's another thing I laugh about, is my first. If you go back on my no CD intake, like, survey, it says, what are your goals for getting Treatment. And I was like to not have intrusive thoughts anymore. I laugh. Exactly. I laugh now because I'm like, oh, sweet girl, that's not reality.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

How cute, though. Yeah, how cute. Yeah, because you don't have to have OCD to have intrusive.

[Chelsea Risko]

Nope.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah. No, I mean, I, I, I tell everyone, you know, I, I watched a B rated horror film called the Toxic Avenger as a child. In one of the scenes, the Toxic Avengers feed the kid who bullied him riding a bicycle. And he's in the Toxic Avenger mobile and he runs him over. And as he runs him over, he says, oh, 50 points. And to this day, I assign a point value to everybody riding a bicycle, everybody crossing a street, strollers get extra points, wheelchairs, you know, all of it. You know, just everybody gets a point value of what, how many points I would get if I were to run them over. And I just kind of chuckle at it and go, wow, that, that movie 40 years ago still. Still influences my life to this day, you know?

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, man, that's. He bringing up my great moments of ocd, like, history. If I had like a, A hall of fame.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Hall of fame.

[Chelsea Risko]

I watched Inception, which is that Leo, Leonardo DiCaprio. And it's about the dream within the dream and how to get out of the dream is to kill yours. I mean, that, oh, man, that hit me so hard in 2020 when things were really crazy and like, I was like, this can't be real. I am in a dream. And I didn't eat for seven days. I didn't sleep for seven days. I didn't think my child was real. I thought that he was a simulation or my dream or something. And all because of watching Inception. And OCD was like, oh, I like this. Let's remind her of this. And so, I mean, and that was before I had my OCD diagnosis. So I can pulse to the end with that one. I went to the ends of the Internet. I mean, I gave it my all to try and find an answer. And guess what? There wasn't an answer. Because there's no certainty in that. And so now, like, it still comes up. That's probably my most common theme that I experience from day to day is if I see like five white cars in a row, I go, oh, it's a simulation. Here we are, we're in the Matrix.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yep.

[Chelsea Risko]

And then OCD wants to freak out and I go, we've already tried, we've literally already tried this one ocd. I can't even pretend to want to Try. Because I have done it. I've gone all the way to the end to where I had no other resources and I had to go. There is no answer. I don't know.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

You know, we could be in a computer simulation. It is a possibility. Sure.

[Chelsea Risko]

Why not?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah. Okay. You know, I just.

[Chelsea Risko]

Right.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

I. I love what you said, that the ultimate goal for OCD is to find an answer. But what I always say is, because of the fact that OCD is called the doubting disorder, you can't give it an answer because it will doubt every answer you give it, even though it demands you to give it an answer that's true and real and a hundred percent. It can't accept it because it doubts it.

[Chelsea Risko]

Right. Like, you could be like, is this. You know, is this paper green? And you could look at it and be like, it's green. But then OCD is going to be like, but what if you're colorblind? Like, there's always gonna. Even if you have the evidence right in front of you, there's always gonna be something else. And I think, again, another part of my recovery was I got tired of playing the game of I'm never gonna have an answer. I could try my hardest, and I'll never be able to appease this ever. So if that's the answer is I'm just running towards answers for the rest of my life. And I'm absolutely just hating every moment of it. I'd rather focus on fighting this thing and hating those moments for a little while so then I can have freedom.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

That's where I really, like, turned a corner. I feel like, is making that decision.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Normally, I save this question to the end, but I think it's appropriate now. There are people watching this who think, yeah, but I don't know that I want to try erp. I give you a clash.

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, man. This is a fun one. Because in the community, which, again, being on Instagram, I get to see a lot of people's viewpoints and, you know, therapists who practice, I CBT or act, you know, whatever it is. And. And I will always be an advocate for ERP because of all of the research and all of the data that's there for it. From my own experience with it. It is absolutely. It is hard. It is hard. I will absolutely validate that. And it feels harder than living with ocd, because when you have OCD and you're doing compulsions, you're getting those moments of comfort that you think are enough to help you survive, but it is not. Living, when you are doing compulsions to survive, living, is freedom from ocd. And I'm telling you, like, I know there are people who are resistant to that treatment, and I'm so bummed for that. That breaks my heart because of the success I've had. But for those who haven't tried it yet, I would absolutely encourage people to try ERP because it is the, like, anti OCD answer. It is the thing that pokes the bear to make it walk away and leave you alone. And what I thought it would do is poke the bear and make it stronger. I thought it would make things worse, but it did not. It deterred it. It made it become weaker. I became stronger. I. This is the thing that's kind of another. While we're talking about controversial things. Things, let's talk about this. I. There is a very small part of me, very small, because of where I'm at and because of my journey. I am thankful that I experienced ocd. And I will tell you why.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Okay.

[Chelsea Risko]

Because it has taught me that I am so much stronger than anything that I could face in this life.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

And when I've spent 32 years in fear of everything and feeling like I can't fully live, I would absolutely go through that journey again to get where I am today. So when I talk about erp, that was the golden ticket for me. That was the thing that I am so thankful exists and that I live in a time where it's available and that we have therapists who are trained in it to help, you know, us sufferers through it.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

However, I do want to be respectful that sometimes it doesn't work for everybody.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Right.

[Chelsea Risko]

But I think we need to start with erp. I think we need to start with that because it has the most research behind it and then add on other things. Maybe ICBT is a support for after. I mean, I don't know enough about the other modalities.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

I don't either.

[Chelsea Risko]

But I know erp and I know it worked for me.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Here's the other piece, too. If you look at the way that anybody's ever learned anything, it's been through exposing themselves to that thing and learning how to do it without safety behaviors. I'm going to bet when you learned how to drive, you were not doing diaphragmatic breathing and muscle relaxation while learning how to drive, were you? No. Okay. And no matter how much classroom you had about driving and how much thinking you did about driving, you couldn't drive until you actually got in the car and experienced it. Right. So I contend that anything we've ever done has an ERP basis to it.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, that's a great point.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

If you know how to walk. And the. Imagine the first time you fell and you thought to yourself, well, that sucked. I'm never doing that again. You'd be 30 and crawling. Right. Why are you crawling? Well, because I fell once and it was terrible. I don't ever want to fall again. I hit my head. It hurt. I don't want to do that anymore. So if you do things, you've done it because you've exposed yourself to it. You've learned that you could handle the pitfall. Now, that doesn't mean, though, that it stays that way because you might drive for 30 years, then be in a car accident and then decide, I don't ever want to drive again. Right. It isn't that you lost the ability to drive. It's that your fear gets in the way of you doing the driving again. And so what do we do for treatment? We help you go back to doing what you were doing before the fear stopped you from doing. That's what we do.

[Chelsea Risko]

Exactly. Exactly. That's a great. A great example.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

I also appreciate that you said that, you know, you know that going through this has shown you that you can do anything, but there is a misconception out there that, oh, OCD can actually make your life better. And I'd love to hear you. I'd love to hear you address that, because people will say that to me, and sometimes people with OCD will say, oh, it made me better. I don't think OCD makes you better. I think going through treatment for OCD shows you how good you can be. But I personally don't think OCD makes you better. And I would like to get your opinion.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, thank you for asking that, because, as we noticed, I laugh because I can't imagine a world where anyone would be using it as a plus to their lives. Like the actual suffering from ocd. I bleep, as you just said, like the getting through it. But that was me. I did that. OCD had nothing to do with me overcoming ocd.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Right.

[Chelsea Risko]

That was me.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

In fact, OCD probably tried to screw with you. Overcoming ocd.

[Chelsea Risko]

Exactly. So when I say that I'm thankful for it, I'm not thankful for it itself. I think it'd be the same as someone saying and thankful for fill in the blank of something hard they experienced that helped them find strength. You know, the idea of, you know, I feel like people always have the misconception and this, of course, and this is everybody. Everybody who ever shares I feel like they have OCD with a family member or a friend. How often are we responded to with, oh, me too, I love it when my blank, blank, blank, blank, or oh, I wish, because I'm just not tidy at all. Or yeah, it's the misconception, I feel like. And so I. I wonder if that's where people are getting that from, is, oh, I'm so tidy and I have a clean house and it's like I'm tormented in my brain about if I'm going to kill someone. So I'm glad that's what you think it is. And that's often what I'll respond because I'm not the best at having a filter about OCD because I've lived too long in the dark about it and I just want to advocate until I can't breathe anymore about it. And I'll say to them, oh, well, I wish I had that ocd, because mine is that I'm afraid I'm going to hurt my child or someone I love. And then they kind of stop and look at me. And then I'm like, oh, maybe we should talk about what OCD really is. And it's a great segue.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

But it is a misconception, like you said, that people think it can be a positive. And I, as a sufferer, I could never put it in that light because it's tormented me beyond anything I could imagine. But I could see how maybe people outside of the understanding of OCD might think that.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Right.

[Chelsea Risko]

But it is wrong.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Is it? Did you have this happen? Because I saw this all the time. Whenever I would do groups, the new person would always come in and somebody be talking. They'd lean over to the person next and say, I wish I had that kind of ocd.

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, yes, there's always a theme that's less hard than the one you're experiencing. But let me tell you again, having experienced all of them at this point, there isn't an easy one.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

They all equally suck, don't they? Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yes, they really do. Do they all, like, torment you in the same way where you just feel completely out of control and you feel that shame and guilt and you feel all the feelings, don't just feel fear or anxiety. There's so much more to it that sometimes people don't see. And I mean, again, the theme just doesn't matter. It can matter when you're creating, you know, your ERP practices and your hierarchy. But past that OCD is OCD and it just changes its masks.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah. Yeah, it really is a jerk. Now that you're living your life and not the life that OCD wanted you to live, which you did live for so long without knowing that that's the life that you were living. What's different in the last three years and how you approach the world versus all the years before? Treatment stuff.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, I think the biggest one, and this one might be surprising, is my level of empathy has, I mean, gone up so much since understanding OCD and my diagnosis. I have so much more empathy for those who struggle with mental health. I have more empathy for people who have to experience really hard things in their life, for people who, you know, die by suicide even. It's. It's. It's like there's an understanding of. It's hard. It's so hard. And when it's in your mind and people can't see it physically, it's so hard for people to give you grace and give you, you know, any kind of care, really. They just think that, oh, you look fine, so you must be fine until something really bad happens. And then, you know, they always. People always think, oh, well, then you go to, you know, the hospital, and then that's where, oh, no, it was real. Meanwhile, people are struggling and quiet all the time. All the time. And I mean, just OCD in particular. So much of it is taboo that people don't speak about their things or the things they're thinking. Not in a compulsive way, but just in a way of, like, this is hard and I need support and I need love. And I think that, for me, that's the one thing I've seen in the last three years is. And that's why I got into advocacy, is I don't want anyone to feel like they're alone in this, because OCD will run with that and will isolate the person and make them feel like they can't share. But what I love about our community is we've all experienced it. We all understand, even, you know, the clinicians in our community, they get it. And there's nothing that's taboo to any of us. People can share openly whatever their theme is. And I know other people, you know, in the advocacy space, I see all the time, if someone mentions POCD or SOCD like that one is hard because people turn it into something else. They turn it into their understanding. And it's. It can be an opportunity to share with people the realities of ocd. But you have to get past people Having these preconceived ideas of what it means.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

So for me, you know, the advocacy, that is something else. I have never felt so strongly about stepping into a space to use my voice and to help people than in the OCD sphere because of the last three years, in my experience.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Well, I appreciate that, and we appreciate an OCD because a big piece of NOCD is to educate the world about what OCD truly is. And not that it's something that's helpful or a personality quirk or something. Having a little bit of would be great. One of the examples I use in my talks and, you know, forgive all listeners who are listening to this, but I'll say, imagine if I walked into a group of people who were struggling with weight and said, have you considered a little anorexia? And people hear that and they're just like, oh, oh, oh, that's terrible. That's awful. And I say, and that's how people with OCD feel when they hear, God, I wish I just had a little ocd because then I could get my house.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yes.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

It's the same thing to them when they hear that.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, absolutely. It's crushing. It's. I would say one of the hardest things of my journey has not been ERP or, you know, the crippling anxiety or any of those parts. It has been feeling misunderstood and feeling like people will never get it. I had to accept there's going to be people in my life who are never going to get it, and because they don't experience it. And I have to be okay with that because what they do is they do talk to me and they do ask questions, and they do want to understand and support me and love me. And so it's hard to realize that I may never have people in my immediate circle understand to the point where they can really get it, but they love me through it. And I appreciate that. And let's say we're lacking that even. We're lacking someone who wants to understand in our. In our immediate circle. And the community is so strong for ocd. People watch out for each other. Like, they are supporting each other to the point where, of course, it's not harmful. That's one thing, you know, at the IOCDF conference I spoke about is being careful to be an advocate and not try to be a clinician, because those are not the same thing. And advocates point to the right direction. You know, when people reach out to me, I'm sending them to the IOCDF page. I'm sending them to nocd. I'M sending them to resources that will help them. And so that's the beautiful thing about our community is we want people to get the help they need. We want people to feel that they're safe and seen and that they're loved, even though they suffer from this terrible disorder.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

It is sad to see the suffering. Right. And I want to go back to what you said about the misunderstanding. And, and I see it in my own life. I have people in my life who say, I still don't know why you have to have your job. Why don't you just tell people to stop thinking about it? And, and I just say to folks, and you may be one of those people that unless you experience it, you'll never get it right. You just, you just won't understand what it is that we're talking about until something potentially were to happen. And believe me, I hope it doesn't happen to you. And, and I'm. I'm frankly okay if you're ignorant about certain things in life, but it's okay to not understand. What I don't think is okay is to then judge people because you don't understand. And I'm sure there are people who have probably judged you in your life because you didn't just stop thinking about it. Right. Or, or just walk it off or get over it or something.

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah. And that's. I've been very lucky, I'll say, to have a very supportive community. But absolutely, I will say, you know, working with people who don't understand has been probably the hardest part, because for me, I don't do physical compulsions.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

It's all mental for me. So what it looks like for me on a bad OCD day is I'm very quiet and withdrawn and sometimes I can't even focus on work, so I need to call in sick. And that's confusing for people. And I know I've had co workers mention that they don't understand why I can't just figure it out. Yeah, that has been really hard. And luckily I got to a place where, you know, my, my boss that I've been working for for three years. On the first day, I said, hey, I need you to know some things about me. One is that I have adhd, so I'm never going to shut up. And two, I have ocd. I have ocd and that sometimes takes me out for a. A day or two. And I'm going to be very honest with you, when I'm having one of those days. I'm not asking you to Fix it. But I'm asking for space to figure it out because I know what I need to do. But sometimes it takes me a little longer to do it, and I don't want it to affect my work. And he has been so supportive of that the whole time.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

That's amazing. And I think people understand what you're describing about OCD less, because that's not even in a movie or a TV show, because someone with purely mental compulsions on television would look like this.

[Chelsea Risko]

Exactly. I know. What's the depiction of that?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah, that's not exciting TV there, you know, whatsoever. So you're not going to see what you have portrayed in there. So it's understood even less as part of the commission. And even in the OCD community, it's still kind of the. Oh, don't forget to ask about mental compulsions. When I'm training people, I'm always reminding them, always ask about mental compulsions, because not everyone will volunteer that they have mental compulsions because they may not even know that what they're experiencing are mental compulsions.

[Chelsea Risko]

Right, exactly. Exactly. And that's. This is where in the community, sometimes I feel like. Almost like my. Well, I should say my OCD will attack that, because, of course, it attacks everything, but it'll say, well, who are you to speak about OCD advocacy when you're not washing your hands until they crack and bleed? Who are you to, you know, have a voice in this space when you aren't, like, losing hours of your life doing a repetitive compulsion physically?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

And what I've been thankful for, and this is something I posted most recently, is there was a day I left my flat iron on and my towel was probably about half an inch away from it. I left it on as I went to Walmart and I came back and I realized I'm like, oh, dang. Well, good thing it didn't burn down the house.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

And I. I had this moment of reflection of, wow, that is something that someone would really struggle with in the community. And I wanted to take a moment to kind of bring light to the mental and say, you know, this is something that's very triggering for some with checking compulsions, but for me, I didn't even think about it. What did I think about? About how three celebrities had died this week. So obviously we're living in a simulation and my life is completely empty of anything meaningful. And so it was an interesting contrast to say there's some of us out there who are just purely in our brains with everything all the time, and it's hard. It's still a hard battle. I can't run away from this. And it's also hard to stop mental compulsions. It is hard to catch them because they're so automatic. And there's not a physical way to walk away from that. You have to mentally set it down. I mean, there is an article, I believe it's Dr. Greenberg, I can't remember his first name, that it's about mental compulsions and overcoming them. And he does the analogy of like, take that thought and picture yourself setting it down next to you. You're not throwing it away. You're not like trying to stuff it under pillow. You're just setting it next to you and you're saying, oh, I'm not going to think about this right now. And then you also don't replace that. You have to let something else come in. And that practice was so hard. That's probably one of the hardest things I had to learn is to not keep picking up that thought because in my mind there's a visual, but that's absolutely invisible to people outside of my mind.

[NOCD Representative]

Yeah, I think, I think a hard.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Piece about the mental side is, is the notion that it is absolutely acceptable to have any thoughts and just allow it to be there. Because all the time what I hear from people is, I'll take any thought but that one. That one I have to do something about. And I always ask, and why is that? What, what is it that makes that thought special? That something must be done about. About that one. And then could you ever do enough about that one? Well, I'll just keep doing this until it doesn't happen anymore. And my reply is always, and as long as you keep doing this for it not to happen, it's going to happen. So we're in this kind of no win situation here if you're going to keep chasing the tail of this dog. Or we could just stop and allow the tail to wag and realize it's just what it does and I don't need to do anything about it once.

[Chelsea Risko]

Well, exactly, exactly. Which is a lot easier said than done. But it is doable.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

What do you mean? It's very simple. What are you talking about? I don't know.

[Chelsea Risko]

Just don't think about it, you know.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Just stop thinking about it. Get it out of your head. Yeah. No. Boy, does it require practice. Right. Because think about it. Where in your life have you ever been taught not to pay attention to the things you think about?

[Chelsea Risko]

Right.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Nowhere.

[Chelsea Risko]

It's like the beacon of life that's another thing I had to really navigate was, well, if I'm not that, then who am I in here? What voice is that?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

I can't trust my own brain. Yeah, yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

Like, I felt, I felt like that for a long time. I was like, I remember being so angry at my brain. I just remember being so mad and being like, I don't even know who to listen to. I don't even know where I stand. And here I am having the conversation in my brain as myself to my brain. But then I'm like, I don't know who I am and I don't know what you know. And that took a long time too. Is like realizing I'm still in there and there's a value based portion of me in that brain who is driving the car. And OCD may try to like pull the wheel from the passenger seat every once in a while, but ultimately I'm in the driver's seat and I get to drive what life looks like. I get to make decisions, value based decisions, decisions. And sometimes that feels so hard. But when you are able to say, these are my values, OCD is freaking me out about this, but I need to take action. I need to make, you know, I need to sell my house. That was something that happened during my OCD flare. We decided to homeschool. My son and I had to make the decision to go part time at work to sell our house and buy a new one to, you know, pay off a bunch of stuff. And it was a lot of big life choices and I was clear on what my values were and why I was doing it. So when OCD tried to like, butt in, it was a lot easier for me to be like, oh, nope, these are my values. This is what I'm going for. This has nothing to do with that. So I'm not listening. You can keep chatting, but we're moving this way.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

And I think that's a big part that's hard for some people is you. You've got to know your values. You've got to know what you're driving towards. The over. OCD doesn't completely take over.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

It sure wants to. And sometimes it tries to even grab the wheel from the trunk. Right? I mean, absolutely.

[Chelsea Risko]

I always call that a backdoor spike.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Risko]

Where I'm like, oh, it's dead in the trunk. And then all of a sudden it like zombies out. And like. Yeah, that's what it feels like. Sometimes I'm like, where have you been? And it's like, I've been stewing on these 80 million things I'm going to attack you with. And you're like, whoa, no.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Well. And that's right.

[Chelsea Risko]

It's okay.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

That's the other interesting piece you said, the backdoor spike, because OCD gets you on both sides. What a horrible person you are for thinking this. And now what a horrible person you are for not caring that you're thinking this.

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, man, I love that. So creative, right?

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

You can't win.

[Chelsea Risko]

So creative.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Yeah. You just can't win in these situations.

[Chelsea Risko]

No.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

What advice would you like to give folks before we wrap up today?

[Chelsea Risko]

Oh, man. Well, I guess if I only have a few minutes, I better make it brief. I think the biggest thing I can say is don't be afraid to reach out for help because you think yours is too bad. And what, you know, yours being maybe what you experience in ocd, maybe your theme, whatever you think is too bad, it is not too bad to get help. There are people who are trained and are really good at what they do, and they're passionate about what they do. That's another thing. Is anyone that I've ever met who treats ocd, they don't do it for the money grab. They don't do it because it's fun. They do it because they care and they get it. And so if you have not reached out for professional help, I very much urge you to, because that was where healing began for me. And I know I'm on the NOCD podcast, but that is what I push people to, because as far as accessibility goes, in Idaho, we don't have, in person, OCERP trained clinicians in Idaho. I think there's two maybe. And so when it comes to accessibility, I have sent so many people to nocd, people that I know who have reported back to me about how great their experience is and how they're going through ERP now. And I just. I'm so thankful for resources. IOCDF has so many resources, too, to find good clinicians. I know it's scary and it's hard. Try not to spend money on quick fixes because they usually are not quick fixes. You know, coaches and quick celery juicers. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like there's so much celery juice in the community. Use your discernment. Yeah, Use your discernment and find your professionals that can really help you and get going on your recovery because it is possible. Your. Your case is not too bad. I promise. It feels like it. I felt it, too. I was like, great, I want to kill myself and that is where I'm going to start this journey. That's crazy. How am I ever going to come back from this thought? And I am on the other side now with that freedom. And I'm just so thankful that I took the first step. I'm glad that I had the courage to share those scary thoughts with someone I could trust. And turns out they had already heard thoughts just like them, so it wasn't very original. Anyway, there you go.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Awesome. Well, Chelsea, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you online and see your stuff?

[Chelsea Risko]

Yeah, so I am online the underscore OCD underscore girly. And I'm the IE girly because I like having a little flair there. But that is where I'm at on Instagram. You will also see me speaking at the IOCDF Faith and OCD conference coming up online.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Me too.

[Chelsea Risko]

This fall. I'm really excited about that. So. And I don't know, maybe some other events. I really just want to be using my voice for the better good of the community. So you'll see my silly rantings and such online.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

But love it.

[Chelsea Risko]

If I've ever never seen me in person, please say hi because I love meeting people. I also like hugging and sometimes that's taboo. But I asked first.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

You asked. You did ask. It was okay.

[Chelsea Risko]

I did, yeah. I try to be really respectful of that because I used to not be a hugger. I love it. So if you meet me, we might hug. Just be prepared, everyone.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

Fantastic. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it and I know the OCD and the dosage community appreciates it too, very, very much.

[Chelsea Risko]

Thank you.

[Dr. Patrick McGrath]

And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you like it, you can go to the NOCD YouTube channel and subscribe there. Or you can get it where you like all your favorite podcasts. And if you're looking for help for OCD, well check us [e-mail] that's nocd.com we work with people who have OCD, body focused, repetitive behaviors, hoarding, trauma, depression, anxiety. We've got you covered. And in the US we take lots of insurances and are always adding more of them. We also work in Canada, the UK and Australia. NOCD.com we're there, we're waiting. Thanks for watching. And remember, be better to yourselves than your OCDAs. Have a good one.