NFL Player Braden Smith Opens Up About His OCD Journey

Summary

Get to Know OCD – Episode Summary
Podcast: Get to Know OCD
Host: Dr. Patrick McGrath
Guest: Braden Smith, Indianapolis Colts NFL Player
Episode: NFL Player Braden Smith Opens Up About His OCD Journey
Date: November 6, 2025

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Episode Overview
This episode dives deep into the lived experience of Braden Smith—a professional NFL player with the Indianapolis Colts—as he unpacks his journey through OCD, specifically religious scrupulosity. Host Dr. Patrick McGrath guides Braden through his struggles, turning points, and the multifaceted treatment approaches he explored, including exposure and response prevention (ERP) therapy and alternative psychedelic-assisted therapies. Their conversation spotlights the realities of mental health in elite sports and beyond, emphasizing hope, empowerment, and the importance of breaking stigma and isolation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Braden’s Early OCD Experiences and Scrupulosity

• Recognition and Impact ([00:05]–[06:43])
  • Braden recalls early signs, mainly relentless mental review of perceived sins, feeling compelled to experience enough guilt:

    “I would review those moments over in my head over and over and over again because I felt like I had to feel a certain amount of guilt and it was never enough…” —Braden, [00:05]

  • OCD intensified after Braden embraced his faith and became a father—two major life changes and stressors.
    • Idle time during the off-season and post-knee surgery allowed OCD to flourish.
    • Realization occurred after reading about “religious scrupulosity” online:

      “I randomly came across something like a little online article talking about religious scrupulosity...That's the first time I really like that. Like, maybe I do have, like, ocd.” —Braden, [04:49]

• The Loop of Reassurance and Hopelessness ([08:30]–[11:54])
  • Describes endless cycles of reassurance seeking—turning to online forums, clergy, family—but never finding the certainty OCD demands.
  • Braden highlights the frustration and despair these cycles create in relationships and self-esteem.

    “I don't know if it was necessarily frustration that was like coming...early on it was just like a lot of fear, a lot of hopelessness ...just crawled into a shell.” —Braden, [11:54]

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Intrusiveness of OCD and Life Disruption

• Loss of Enjoyment & Urgency ([13:16]–[15:28])
  • OCD took over, pushing aside joy in football and family.
  • Describes an all-consuming fear of not doing everything "right", even to the point of fearing something bad would happen if rituals were missed.
  • OCD kept him stuck in the past and future, rarely able to be present:

    “You know, for the first 28 years of my life, I screwed up. So I need 28 more years to make up for those.” —Braden, [15:15]

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Treatment Journey: Traditional, Intensive, and Alternative Approaches

• Therapy Exploration & Challenges ([16:04]–[17:17])

  • Started with ERP (exposure and response prevention) but struggled to commit due to NFL and life demands.
  • Attempted transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), ketamine, pharmaceuticals, and an intensive stay at a general mental health facility which he felt lacked OCD-specific support.
  • Found significant breakthrough through psychedelic-assisted therapy:

    “Something that I found really helped was some psychedelic therapy...Ibogaine and also 5-MeO-DMT...it kind of broke down the wall for me.” —Braden, [17:17]

  • Following the psychedelic therapy, Braden engaged in intensive, OCD-specific therapy in a peaceful setting, solidifying new coping skills while the effects of ibogaine lingered in his system.

• Turning Point and Self-Empowerment ([20:27]–[23:41])

  • After treatment, Braden describes a dramatic reduction in fear and anxiety, and a new-found “supreme confidence” to fight back against OCD.

    "After that treatment, it's like all that kind of just, like, melted away. And...gave me like this supreme confidence...now it's my time to fight back." —Braden, [20:27]

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Tools for Recovery and Living with OCD

• Applying ERP and Fighting Fear ([23:41]–[28:39])

  • Braden internalizes the lesson: “do the opposite” of what OCD demands (ERP principle), using humor and willingness to step toward fears rather than away.
  • Describes a mental shift: instead of avoiding or suppressing intrusive thoughts, he faces them—taking away their power.
  • Utilizes metaphors:
    • The “nightmare dinosaur” story—jumping into the mouth of fear rather than running away ([21:29])
    • “Boogeyman in the closet”—opening the door removes the threat ([27:14])
  • Recognizes that avoidance only strengthens OCD; active exposure and acceptance is key.

• Relationship with Faith, Post-Treatment ([28:39]–[34:34])

  • Now sees faith as organic and personal, not ritualistic or perfectionistic.

    “I can receive that grace now...I have that acceptance. And, you know, I can receive that grace now.” —Braden, [30:49]

  • Recognizes that OCD and faith are fundamentally opposed:

    “OCD does not like faith because faith is the acceptance or belief in something without absolute proof. And OCD says, oh, no, we need the proof. You got to find the proof.” —Dr. McGrath, [34:15] "You can't find more polar opposites than those two..." —Braden, [34:34]

  • Understands “missing the mark” (sin) as an opportunity for growth rather than a source of endless guilt.

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Stigma, Openness, and Community

• The Power of Talking About OCD ([35:44]–[42:27])
  • Emphasizes the value of community and openness—having teammates with OCD brought validation and hope:

    “Knowing someone else had the same things...gave me that hope and kind of peace. Like, you know, there is a light in the tunnel.” —Braden, [41:32]

  • Dismantles stereotypes—OCD is not just about neatness; it’s about intrusive, distressing thoughts, often invisible to others:

    "You wouldn't think I'd have OCD the way I have my locker at the facility, for sure." —Braden, [42:27]

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Advice and Takeaways

• On Seeking Help and Trying New Treatments ([42:27]–[44:54])
  • Encourages vulnerability and confronting fear—with professional guidance.
  • Reminds listeners that OCD requires specific treatment—general therapy often falls short.
  • Advocates for exploring new treatment options and taking recovery into one’s own hands.
  • Emphasizes that OCD doesn't discriminate; anyone can be affected:

    “It doesn't matter how big you are, how strong you are, you know, because OCD will attack anyone that it can possibly get into.” —Dr. McGrath, [44:11]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s one thing to notice it, there’s another thing to be able to fight back for.” —Braden, [36:42]
• “I'm gonna call my OCD's bluff. I'm gonna do the opposite of what it says.” —Braden, [21:29]
• “Vulnerability is that strength because, I mean, without saying you have a problem, you can't address a problem, and, you know, you don't have awareness to it.” —Braden, [38:56]
• “OCD... only has as much power as we give it. Until one day it’s just like, you know what? ...I'm going to do my exposures and, you know, see what happens.” —Braden, [27:14]
• “I really just don’t care, man.” —Braden, describing his response to OCD, [37:41] & [01:04]
• “OCD keeps you in the past or in the future...” —Dr. McGrath, [14:25]
• “I think the whole point of life is growth. ...If we're just constantly, like, worried about the ruler getting smacked across the hand, like, that's not what God's all about.” —Braden, [32:08]
• "When you bring it out into the light, that's when you know you can start to take your life back and take the power back." —Braden, [44:54]

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Important Timestamps & Segment Highlights

• [04:49] Braden describes the moment he first recognized his OCD as religious scrupulosity.
• [13:16] Discusses how OCD dimmed enjoyment in football and family life.
• [16:04] Lays out his full diagnostic and treatment journey—including traditional ERP, TMS, ketamine, and psychedelics.
• [20:27] Braden’s post-treatment perspective shift: from fear to confidence in facing OCD.
• [21:29] The “dinosaur” analogy—facing fears by doing the opposite of what OCD wants.
• [27:14] Applying horror movie analogies to OCD and exposure work.
• [30:49] How Braden’s relationship with faith evolved post-recovery.
• [38:56] Importance of vulnerability and seeking help.
• [41:32] Power of community and finding others with similar struggles.
• [44:54] On bringing OCD into the open to lessen its grip.

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Tone and Takeaways
The episode maintains an open, hopeful, and supportive tone throughout. Braden is candid yet measured as he shares struggles and breakthroughs; Dr. McGrath offers validation, clinical context, and gentle humor. The message: Recovery is possible—and strongest when grounded in community, evidence-based treatment, self-compassion, and the courage to confront fear.

For Listeners:
If you’re struggling with OCD, know you’re not alone—specific, targeted therapy and communal support are available and effective. Be open to new avenues of healing, embrace vulnerability, and remember: be better to yourself than your OCD ever will be.

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Transcript

[A]

You bringing your story of OCD and being in the NFL to the forefront.

[B]

I can really remember, like, the first stages of my scrupulosity. I got to the point where I was thinking different sins in my mind. Like, what was the most major sin I committed? And I would review those moments over in my head over and over and over again because I felt like I had to feel a certain amount of guilt and it was never enough for me to feel it. Things that I used to enjoy, like football, you know, hanging out with my family, like, it just took a backseat to what I was thinking with my ocd. I just wasn't happy after that treatment. It's like all that had just melted away. And it kind of felt like it kind of gave me this supreme confidence. I felt very confident, like, all right, you basically had my back against the wall and now it's my time to fight back. And I just kind of tell my ocd, like, I really just don't care, man. Foreign.

[A]

Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. Before we get started, I wanted to share an important note about today's conversation. Our guest will be discussing their personal experience using psychedelic substances and other alternative approaches for ocd. It's important to understand that while there's a growing interest and ongoing research into psychedelics as a potential therapy for ocd, these treatments are not currently approved by the Federal Drug Administration and lack sufficient evidence to be considered standard care. At nocd, we're deeply committed to evidence based treatment, specifically exposure and response prevention, or ERP therapy, which is the most effective and well researched treatment for ocd. If you'd like to learn more about ERP and how it can help you or someone you love, please reach out to [e-mail] we're here to help. Now let's get into today's episode. Hi everyone. Welcome once again to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. We're thrilled to have you here. And if you like the get to Know OCD podcast, well, you can check us out at our NOCD YouTube channel and subscribe there. Or you can get it anywhere you get your favorite podcast today. Sporting one of the greatest beards ever to appear on the podcast, may I say we have Braden Smith from the Indianapolis Colts. Hello, Braden. How are you today?

[B]

I'm doing great. Appreciate the opportunity to be able to speak with you today.

[A]

Well, and I appreciate you and you bringing your story of OCD and being in the NFL to the forefront because it's so important to take things that have been silent for so long and bring them out to the open so that we help to reduce stigma and we create a greater understanding for people about mental health instead of just physical. I mean, I think there's so much discussion, especially in football. Right. You see the injuries and things like that, but there's not a lot of talk about the mental health side. So thank you for being open to discussing that today.

[B]

Yeah, of course.

[A]

Now we'll get into OCD a little bit, but I'm assuming because, boy, it's got to be an amazing experience to spend your life playing football and then to get drafted into the NFL. And I'm just wondering what. What's that day like, that experience, like that phone call? It's got to be a surreal moment.

[B]

Yeah, so it was. It's pretty exciting. I mean, you know, it's kind of like one of those, you know, hallmark moments. You can kind of think of, you know, just the surreality of it. You know, I was at my wife's softball game when we were in college. She wasn't my wife yet, but we knew we were going to get married. But I promised that I was going to be there with her when it all went down. And literally the national anthem started playing, and that's when I got the call. So, you know, there's actually the softball game was at Texas A. M. So, you know, a bunch of Texans are looking at me on. On my phone.

[A]

It doesn't go over well, does it, Britain?

[B]

I gotta take this call, guys. It's pretty important. But, you know, that moment, you know, you'll really change my life. I mean, a lot has happened with me and my wife in Indianapolis the last eight years. And, you know, it's, you know, our first house, you know, our first child, you know, spending our married days there. So it's been a big part of our life. And, you know, it's, you know, kind of home to us for the most part.

[A]

OCD is a part of your story and has been a part of your story of being in the NFL. And I'm wondering, to the extent that you're willing to share, how did you start to notice OCD being a part of your life and it finally lead to a diagnosis for you?

[B]

Yeah, like, I've, you know, kind of looking back and having really some time to reflect on it. You know, I've had OCD for a very long time. Like, there was different things here and there, but nothing that was, like, really affected my daily life for the most part. And, you know, last year was when I really Came into my faith. You know, I just had my newborn son, you know, looking at things from a different light, and, you know, I wanted to really dive into my faith. You know, growing as a human being, you know, becoming a father. You know, I thought that was a very important part of my life. And, you know, there's a lot of new things to me not really fully committing to faith before then. You know, now that I was fully committed to it, and, you know, there's a lot of questions. You know, whenever I do something, I want to make sure that I'm doing it the right way. And, yeah, things. Yeah, when coming into faith was when I really noticed my ocd, because it became every minute, every second of my life was consumed by ocd. And that's what really kind of took a hold for me. And, you know, I knew something was wrong. My wife knew something's wrong. And honestly, the first time I really kind of considered it being OCD was I randomly came across something like a little online article talking about religious scrupulosity. And I was, like, looking at all the things I'm like, this kind of sounds like what I have. And that was about three months before I actually received the official diagnosis. But it was just kind of, you know, one of those things where you just kind of stumble upon. And, you know, that's the first time I really like that. Like, maybe I do have, like, ocd.

[A]

So OCD loves a stressor, and OCD also loves things that are important to you, and those are the two things that it will attack. So having a child, though, it can be a wonderful thing. Also a big stressor in people's lives.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I have heard of dads developing what we call perinatal ocd, which can be from the point of conception through a year or two after birth. That. That is enough of a stressor for OCD to really kick into high gear. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, also, I think a big contributing factor was this was, like, the first moment in my life that I really had just time to, like, sit and think because it was off season, you know, just had the child. You know, we're not going anywhere. We're not traveling anywhere. And two weeks prior to his birth, I had knee surgery.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So, you know, not really able to do too much. Just given my knee time to heal. So I just had time to think and, you know, have all these new things that I'm discovering. And, you know, obviously, like, an idle mind was a very dangerous place for ocd, you know, when you're not constantly Occupied. You know, I had that time to think or allow. You know, I had time for my mind to kind of just do whatever I wanted to do, and I didn't know how to handle that.

[A]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because OCD does. Does love the ability to sit and think a lot and then to talk about it a lot as well. I'm. I'm assuming you've also seen, too, where it would love to have multiple discussions multiple times a day about all these topics and yet never fully accept an answer. Right.

[B]

Yeah. Where there's one answer, there's five more questions that come with that answer.

[A]

I've. I've often said OCD is a. Yeah, but what if disorder.

[B]

Right. It.

[A]

It doesn't matter what answer you probably got. There was always some, yeah, but what ifs to follow it.

[B]

Yeah, that was definitely case. And I can really remember, like, the first stages of my scrupulosity. You know, for me, it was, like, a lot of guilt with, like, passing and, you know, I got to the point where I was thinking, you know, I was weighing different sins in my mind, like, what was the most major sin I committed? And I would review those moments over in my head over and over and over again because I felt like I had to feel a certain amount of guilt, and it was never enough for me to feel it, and I had to keep doing it over until I felt like, all right, I actually do truly feel guilty for this. I do feel sorry for this. I'm not just, you know, feeling this certain type of way just because I got caught, per se, I guess you could say. So it was kind of like, obviously, it's like one of those questions that, you know, my OCD was like, are you just. Do you actually feel sorry for what you did, or are you just sorry that you got caught type of thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'd review those things over and over, and, yeah, I just got. That was like, kind of the first stage of it. I felt like, yeah.

[A]

So for those who aren't aware, just, I'll give a little things. Scrupulosity can be about morals or ethics or about religion, and it's the name. We get to OCD about those topics. And for those who have it on the religious side, like you said, there's the review of your whole history. Have you. Have you had enough acts of contrition for any potential sins you've had? Should you be punished for things that you hadn't been punished before? Did you say prayers at the right time and the right way? In the right place and the right tone, in the right volume. And have you really been saved? How do you know for sure that that's case? And maybe you need to do that again just in case it didn't work right the first time. But were those the kinds of things that were going through your head and happening?

[B]

Oh, 100%. And you know, the worst part was, you know, I would look for the definite answer. Those like, you know, obviously going over in my head. But then one of the worst things I could have possibly done was reassurance seeking. You know, I did that through the first part was through going online and looking for answers there. And that stirred up so much more fear in me and more questions. And you know, I find 99 inches that was looking for and then I find the one that would just cause a question in me. And yeah, yeah, like, yeah, it just, it was an endless rabbit hole search.

[A]

You know what everyone tells me is like, I got those 99 answers and I, I just wanted one more than I knew I'd be okay. But it was that one then that I found it was like, oh, why did I have to do that? And then it started it again. Did that happen?

[B]

Do you. Oh, multiple times. Yeah. Think of it. There's never an end to it.

[A]

No. And that can lead to issues family wise too. Right. Because people can get easily frustrated at their family, their spouse, anybody else because they just aren't giving them the answers that they're searching for. Did, did that kind of happen in your life? And like it was tough to interact with people after a while because they just couldn't give you what you wanted.

[B]

Yeah, because, you know, I definitely message like different priests and you know. Yeah, I just keep asking about what if, what if? And you know, I'd have the same conversations with my wife and you know, I'd be like, well, but it really felt like I meant this or I meant that or I thought this and you know, she couldn't give me the answer I was looking for. I mean, no one really could. And I don't know if it was necessarily frustration that was like coming, coming about at least early on, early on it was just like a lot of fear, a lot of hopelessness and like, you know, I kind of really just crawled into a shell and you know, it's got, yeah, there was just a lot of like hopelessness and just like, I don't have the answer. I don't know what the answer is. Like in just fearing the worst, like expecting the worst and not hoping for the best. You know, not having faith in good things, but believing that the worst is going to happen always.

[A]

And it's not uncommon. And I'm not sure if this happened for you, but it's not uncommon for people to start feeling kind of down or depressed, too, because you've pulled yourself out of a lot of your life of things you enjoyed trying to find the answers to this thing and never being satisfied. And it can just feel like you're stuck in that rabbit hole, too. Did you notice, like, a mood change that came along with it as well?

[B]

Very much. I mean, things that I used to enjoy, like football, you know, hanging out with my family. Like, it just took a back seat to what I was thinking with my ocd. And, you know, I just. I just wasn't happy. I didn't enjoy things. It's like, how can I focus on anything in the present moment? Like, I got all these things I need to worry about. Like, all these things I need to do before, you know, before I die, before, like, such and such happens. You know, it's a lot of sense of urgency. It's like, I need to do these things right now. Like, another thing that would pop into my head. It's like, if I were to die right now, did I do everything right? And, you know, that's the constant thing, you know, fear of, like, that. I don't want to say, like, going outside my house, but, like, there was that fear. Like, man, I got to make sure. Like, I don't. I got. I'd be a little bit more cautious. Like, I don't accidentally, like, drive off the side of the road or something like that. And then, oh, I'm in big trouble now because I didn't, you know, do my prayers. Right, Right.

[A]

You die with that mortal sin still on your soul, you know, there. That's a lot of purgatory ahead of you or something like that.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Those types of things. Yeah. I like what you said, too, about it's hard to be present, because I've always said OCD keeps you in the past or in the future. Like, in the past in terms of digging up everything that may have gone wrong in future, which can even be in an afterlife future. Right. It doesn't even have to be while you're alive. It could be after you die kind of future, too. Did you find that you were always stuck everywhere else but right now?

[B]

Oh, 100. Yeah, like I said, you know, reviewing things from the past, you know, feeling guilt about the past. Like, man, if I could have only changed that, man, I would have done it this way, that way. And then obviously worrying about the future, like. And, you know, there's like this thing in my head. I said, you know, for the first 28 years of my life, I screwed up. So I need 28 more years to make up for those.

[A]

Eye for an eye, year for a year.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, very much non the present. Couldn't care less about the present. It's just like we got things to do and none of that matters right now.

[A]

It gets to a point for you where you're not getting those needs met.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're not getting the answers. And there's options for treatment. You know, we. We at nocd, we do exposure and response prevention therapy. That's kind of the gold standard of treatment out there for ocd. But there's other treatments that are being researched that other people are doing. We've had people on the podcast like Dr. Carolyn Rodriguez, who's talked about alternative treatments, and those were some of the things that you looked at. So I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what you did for treatment and how you found that and how it worked for you.

[B]

Yeah. So, I mean, obviously the first step for me was just getting a therapist, getting someone that even, you know, knew anything about ocd, because that was a whole new realm for me. So, you know, we start off with that just kind of traditional, like exposure response therapy. And, you know, I. I think it helped for the most part, but I was still in just kind of one of those stages where I was juggling so much with football and then trying to juggle this that I can't quite lock in on it. You know, I tried tms.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is. I don't know. They put that little helmet on you and. Yeah, Doc, some things.

[A]

Transcranial magnetic stimulation. Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Tried ketamine. Yeah. There's just a lot of different things. I tried, you know, tried medicine, you know, pharmaceuticals kind of help with all that. You know, I had a intensive stay in Colorado, you know, at a medical or at a mental health facility for 48 days.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And for me, it wasn't quite working very well. And the mental health facility that I was staying at wasn't OCD specific. So I think obviously that was a big part that wasn't helping me. But, you know, something that I found really helped was some psychedelic therapy. I know I talked about ketamine, but the one that really helped me the most was called ibogaine. And also 5 Meo DMT. And I went to a place called Ambio Life. And I did this treatments for five days. And the way I would explain it, I mean I can talking about Ibogaine and 5 Meo and my whole experience I would take to take a long time is quite the experience. Sure. It was a very, very eye opening experience. And I would say, you know, it kind of broke down the wall for me. The wall. Like I knew all these things about ocd, but they didn't internally resonate with me. Like I knew, I knew it was ocd, but it didn't resonate and it kind of broke down this wall. Like it opened up all these doors into my mind, kind of see things from a different perspective that I wasn't able to prior to that treatment. And then after doing that treatment, I went to Alabama. You know, my, my wife and her, her, their family, they have like this nice property where it's just kind of out in the middle of, you know, nowhere. You know, just beautiful, beautiful land. And you know, I just spent, we spent two, two months out there, but for two weeks I did three hours a day OCD specific treatment for two weeks. You know, just out there just hitting it hard, you know, had this opportunity to learn all these new skills and actually, and I'll kind of back up because I feel like the ibogaine really gives you the opportunity to learn new skills. Like it stays in your system for three months and you know, all these pathways that have been created, you know, what you associate everything with are kind of cleared and you're, you're able to kind of rewire how you think. And that's why I say, like, I'm actually able to learn these new skills and apply them. And you know, that's when things started to internally resonate with me. And you know, I had a, I have a great therapist, you know, still work with them.

[A]

Good.

[B]

And I think that's important. But you know, I did the two weeks, three hours a day and then went down to twice a week for like a month, month or two and then I think once a week. And now we're to the point where, you know, I just kind of do check in and.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

It's been really, really helpful. I think the psychedelic therapy was very beneficial for me.

[A]

So that kind of opened the door and then you could do some of the ERP work after that and have better results. Is that kind of what it was or.

[B]

Yeah, I, I feel like the, the ibogaine and the five meal combined really helped kind of take away a lot of that fear and Anxiety?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, after that treatment, it's like all that kind of just, like, melted away. And, you know, it kind of felt like. It kind of gave me, like, this supreme confidence. And I felt very confident, like, all right, like, you know, you basically had my back against the wall, and now, like, now it's my time to fight back. And, you know, I kind of took it on as a challenge and, you know, just kind of gave me that internal, like, to really go and fight back against my OCD versus, like, letting it do whatever it wanted to me, essentially.

[A]

That's awesome. So you're open up now to feeling that confidence, to fighting back. How did you start to face scrupulosity in a different way after that treatment experience? What was. What were you able to do that you weren't doing before?

[B]

Well, I think, you know how I talk about. I was very fearful and anxious, like, during the time before the treatment, and, you know, I was. Wasn't willing to really push that limit. And then I think after that, you know, underneath all that fear and anxiety was a lot of, like, anger and frustration. And, you know, I had a lot of anger and frustration with the ocd, everything that was doing so. And that kind of fed into some of the, you know, the obsessions and stuff like that. You know, I kind of had this realization, like, whenever I allow these negative emotions to kind of control me, then that's when it kind of feeds on. It feeds on these negative emotions and allows these thoughts to come in. Because for me, it'd be like, you know, I'm getting angry. Then, you know, my mind's trying to tell me, oh, you're angry at God because you think God's doing this to you, and, you know, try to spin things around. But, you know, it just got to a point where I kind of had that realization. It's like, I know this isn't God. I know this isn't a battle between good and evil. Like, this is my ocd. Like, this is a mental illness. And, you know what? It wants me to do all these things. How about I just start doing the opposite? You know, my therapist really kind of helped me with that. He told me a story about this guy who. Who wrote this book. And basically, when he was a kid, he'd have all these nightmares about, like, dinosaurs, like, chasing him around, and then eventually to get eaten. And then one night, the guy was like, hey, like, my nightmares end up the same way all the time. So what if, instead of running away, I run towards the dinosaur and jump straight into its mouth. And then after a while, those nightmares just went away. So I kind of like. I really like that story. And I've been. I've told a lot of people about that. It's a very simple story, but it's just kind of like, you know what? I'm gonna call my OCD's bluff. I'm gonna do the opposite of what it says. And, you know, that's kind of like the exposure. Like, I'll say these things and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, added humor to it. Like, whenever they expose you, just kind of making fun of it for what it is, you know, take some of the seriousness away from it. But. And, you know, I. I realized that that plays a big part in my life, just in general. Like, in everyone's life, you know? You know, fear stops us from doing a lot of things that can help us to be the human we're created to be. So not only did that do that with ocd, but just like, in my everyday life, it's kind of like, all right, what are the things that, you know? And, you know, it's not like I'm seeking them out, but, like, sometimes I'll come across things that's, like, you know, I don't really feel like I should, or, like, some irrational views. Like, I don't really know if I want to get involved with that, but it's kind of like, you know what? That's kind of letting fear control me. So I'm gonna do the opposite of what my mind's telling me. And obviously, there's a certain level to it. Like, I'm not going to go up to a rattlesnake and touch on the head, prove a point. But it's just, like, things that I know are not actually harmful, but my mind's telling me that they are.

[A]

There are some people who will hear that and think, you know, you're in a scrum with all these massive men just beating each other play after play, and you could do that without any fear, but you would fear something in your mind.

[B]

I.

[A]

Obviously, some folks just don't understand the difference between those two. So what would be your message to someone who. Who may not get that the mental piece can be even more frightening than the physical side of things.

[B]

Right. Yeah. I just, you know, if I were to say one thing, watch the movie Inception. Okay. Because I, like, I think that goes to show, like, a great deal of what kind of goes on in the mind, too. Just, like, because I talk to myself sometimes, like, am I getting caught up in the dream or Am I living in reality? Because they both seem very real. Like that threat that your mind's telling you about seems very real, but in reality it's nothing but just a bunch of makeshift thoughts in your mind. But, no, you go ahead.

[A]

One of the things that people say to me when I do webinars is, it feels so real. And why does it have to feel so real? And I always say, well, A, if it didn't feel real, I wouldn't have a job. But B, it feels so real because it really triggers that fight, flight, or freeze response. So I'm assuming in your head, when that thought about religion was there, that you just felt this ultimate fear that you had to do something about it right away because if you didn't, the worst case, most awful, terrible thing could potentially happen. Yeah.

[B]

And I kind of got to a point where, you know, I'm trying to hold off these thoughts all the time, and they got to a point where I'd actually feel, like just this clarity and this peace when I did have those terrible thoughts that I was avoiding. Because then, you know, there's nothing for me to guard against anymore. It's like the worst thing that could happen. I just. I just. It just happened. I had those thoughts I wasn't supposed to have. Like, nothing happened. Like, now I can just go about my day. Like, if that's the worst thing. That's like the worst thing for me was the build up of the fear. It's kind of like when you're a little kid, you know, you believe that there's a boogeyman in your closet.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And you always stay away from that closet. And, you know, that builds up the fear, you know, builds up the anticipation. But then, you know, obviously you'll have those one nights. It's like, all right, like, I'm just going to go up to it. I'm gonna open it up. I'm looking at it. And then that fear no longer has any more power. You know, it's taken away. You know, since it's October, you kind of think of all the horror movie marathons. Yeah. About all the villains. Like, I think Nightmare on Elm Street's a great one. You know, what's the villain thrive on fear. Like, that's what gives it power. And then the antagonist, you know, she goes up to him, basically says, like, you're nothing. Like, take away all the power you ever gave me. And the villains defeated that way. It's just kind of the same thing with ocd. Like, it only has as much power as we Give it. Until one day it's just like, you know what? I see the things you're telling me to worry about. And you know what? I'm gonna just walk up to it and see what happens. Because I think the further you try to avoid it, stay away from it, the Morse is going to have a hold on to you. So it's just like, all right, either, you know, I kind of think that's where the anger and frustration came. It's like, all right, like, I'm done doing this charade. Like, I'm going to do my exposures and, you know, see what happens.

[A]

Yeah. So as you expose yourself now to things about religion or things pop into your head and you really do that response prevention work. Right. You don't do the safety behaviors. There's not reassurance seeking anymore. There's no compulsions. What's your relationship with your faith now? Even if some of those old thoughts still pop into your head now and then as they. As they will, just because OCD doesn't ever go away, you just learn how to live with it.

[B]

Yeah, I think my faith definitely looks a lot different now. You know, beforehand I thought it was a lot of practice, like specific practices, like reading my Bible a certain way, doing prayer certain times a day, showing up at the church, you know, talking about God to people a certain way. And, you know, it's very inorganic. And I've, you know, now I have a lot first. I think the most important part for me is whenever those things do come up, those thoughts that come into my head is just reminding myself like, this isn't a good versus evil thing. This isn't God versus whatever. This is ocd. And this has nothing to do with my faith or my belief. This is just my mind putting these thoughts into my head. But the way. The second part is, the way I go about my faith now, like, it's very. Just organic to me. And, you know, I think, you know, every relationship is very unique. And it's the same way with God and with me. Like, you know, I don't really get into the Bible as much. You know, I don't do all these different things, but I feel like my connection with God is a lot stronger because I'll just have conversations with him. And, you know, I don't have to do a certain practice. I don't have to do a certain ritual, but I do my practice just by living my daily life. Like, I have that acceptance that, you know, I'm going to fall short. You know, I'm gonna Try my best, because I want to do my best. I want to be a better person. I know that's who I am. It's part of my values, is that, you know, I want to be a good husband, a good father, a good friend, a good human being.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, you know, I know I'm flawed, but I have that acceptance. And, you know, I can receive that grace now. But yeah, just. I think for me, it was like everyone was telling me what it looked like to be a Christian, what it looked like to follow God. But at the end of the day, like, what's bringing me truly closer to God, what's given me a really fulfilling relationship with God, not what someone tells me to do, not what my OCD tells me to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it doesn't have to look the same for everyone, but you can do in a way that is healthy and that you can really connect with God.

[A]

I like the idea if you go back to the original Aramaic and you look at sin is defined really as you miss the mark. So try again. But in current day translation, sin is you're going to hell. Right. You know, it's just like, worst case scenario kinds of stuff. And I love that more original version of, hey, you know, you missed the mark. Let's. Let's try it. And when I'm working with people with scrupulosity and we're doing our erp, I try to go back to that idea of no one is asking you to be perfect other than your obsessive compulsive disorder. Right. I mean, no one else is asking you to be perfect in this. Yeah.

[B]

And you know what's funny? Like, OCD made me dive so deep into it that I completely missed the point. I missed everything about God. You know, it's funny, like, you know, I'm talking about how I don't really. Like, I'm not in scripture every day like I used to be, but I understand scripture a lot more. Like, from the stuff that I remember, I can see things that I didn't want to see. You know, talking about, like, Jesus talking about he's talking to the Pharisees. He's like, you're searching the scriptures for me, for me, but I'm right here in front of you. And I think that that kind of really resonates with me because, like, that's who I was. Like, I was missing God because I was so wrapped up in everything else that, like, God is all around us at all times. And, you know, and I really think going back to things like that I know now, like, God talking to us, like, receiving the kingdom of God like a child. You know, we are God's children, and we're children. What do children do? They grow. They learn. What's the point? And maybe this is too heavy. Maybe this is just. But I think the whole point of life is growth. Like, we are here to grow as individuals. And what happens when you grow? Like, growing pains, you know, you make mistakes, you fall down, you disappoint, but you keep getting back up and you keep growing. And I think that's the. That's the big thing. And just having faith that it's going to be all good at the end. And, you know, we're just having a positive outlook on things. Like, because at the end of the day, if we're just worried about certain things, we're never going to grow. Like, if we're just constantly, like, worried about the ruler getting smacked across the hand, like, that's not what God's all about. And my OCD was trying to tell me, like, oh, like, any. Any move that you make wrong, like, you're screwed.

[A]

I've said, too, OCD does not like faith because faith is the acceptance or belief in something without absolute proof. And OCD says, oh, no, we need the proof. You got to find the proof. So OCD and faith are diametrically opposed to each other.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, you can't find more polar opposites than those two right there. When they clash, they clash hard, and they sure do in a very rough way. And, you know, it's. It does suck because, you know, I can go outside and, you know, if I have any doubts, like, about certain things, like, I can go outside and, like, no, like, I see this because this is right in front of me versus faith. It's playground of the mind for the most part. And it's like, again, a lot of what ifs do I feel? Am I like, all the things you're kind of talking about? Am I saved? Am I doing this right? Do I have this belief? Everything's a measure and it's really not meant to be. Right.

[A]

Yeah. And whenever you measure yourself up to OCD, you always fall short 100%. Yeah. I've never in 26 years met someone who satisfied anything OCD asked them to do.

[B]

Yeah, that's an. Everyone's going over on that one. Yeah, that's right.

[A]

It would be. That's the worst season you could have, right there. Isn't trying to play against OCD and win.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I think it's important what you said to the idea that when you went away to a treatment center that didn't specialize in ocd, how you weren't going to really get what you were hoping for out of that, because OCD really does require a specialized treatment, and more of a general therapy for OCD is not going to really satisfy what you're going to need from a treatment point of view. So I'm thrilled that you were able later on, at least, to find the right treatment and to really get that help that you needed. That's great.

[B]

Yeah. I definitely think the. The place that I went beforehand, like, just the mental health facility, definitely gave me greater awareness of the ocd. I just didn't know I wasn't given the tools on how to fight back against it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there's one thing to notice it, there's another thing to be able to fight back for. Sure.

[A]

Yeah. And the hardest part sometimes of fighting back of OCD is kind of like you said with. With the horror movie films is fighting back means choosing not to engage instead of actually getting into a fisticuffs with OCD in. Because you're not going to win in a fight with ocd. Right.

[B]

Yeah. And I should probably choose my words better in terms of that. Like, everything that you think is the right way to go about it, choose the opposite. So it's kind of like I said, like, going against what your mind's telling you to do, because, yeah, definitely there's times, like, you know, I would just get so frustrated. It's like, man, if I could just like, smack the crap out of my ocd, like, but it's just like, at the end of the day, it's like, you're not going to win an argument against ocd, so all you can do is just like, move on. And once I started to do that, easier said than done, of course.

[A]

Always.

[B]

It definitely takes time. But, you know, for me, like, sometimes these thoughts will just come into my head. I just kind of tell my ocd, like, I really just don't care, man. Like, that's something else. I really just don't.

[A]

You got it? Yeah. You. You have it down now to be like, oh, yeah, sure, throw that at me. Okay, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And move on.

[B]

Right? Say, oh, yes, I'm this. I'm there. Okay, let's move on.

[A]

The other thing. And I. I love that, you know, you play football and that you have a coach, because the other thing that I've done a lot for people who, again, maybe are wary about going into Therapy and talking to someone else. I'll use the example of football and I'll say, no. People in the NFL are the cream of the crop of people who've ever played football. And it doesn't matter how much money they make, they still have a coach.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's still someone there to bounce ideas off or to get opinions from. And I look at therapy in a similar way. It doesn't matter how together you think your life might be. You could. You could benefit from being able to talk to someone else and getting a different perspective who could offer you some different ways of living your life. And you had that happen, which is great.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's kind of the fatal flaws that think that we have it all together. It's when you finally start to realize, like, I don't know what the crap I'm doing is when you actually start to get it. Like, yet it's everything that people tell you. It's usually the opposite that ends up being the truth. Like, vulnerability is that strength because, I mean, without saying you have a problem, you can't address a problem, and, you know, you don't have awareness to it. So I think having that awareness and that vulnerability is the greatest strength and something that everyone really needs to go into. Because it got to that point where I was just like, man, I need to talk to someone, because I keep holding all this in. I. Keeping all this to myself, and I'm about to lose my mind, and there's just so many emotions that get built up, and it feels like you're about to explode, and it's just terrible, terrible feeling.

[A]

And now I'm assuming a much better relationship with your child and your family and everything. Because OCD is not trying to get in the way of everything you do anymore.

[B]

Yeah, 100%. And, you know, as much as I didn't like going through my ocd, it definitely has given me greater awareness. You know, it'd just be little places here and there that would creep into my everyday life that, you know, would hinder me in some. Some perspectives of performance on how I was as a father or a husband, friend. So grateful for that, because now I can kind of see it for what it is and work through some things.

[A]

What advice do you give to people? Because now that you're out, I'm assuming people contact you and are like, I had no idea, and I had something similar and I never told anybody. How do you react to that? That's got to be a. On one hand, just amazing that people want to open up to you now and are so thankful for you being open about your experience. So what's that side of all of this been like for you?

[B]

Yeah, I think it's been really kind of warding, rewarding that, you know, I'm able to kind of help people in a certain way, and not necessarily that I'm helping them through, like, giving them therapy or anything like that, but, you know, I think as an OCD community, just, like, leaning on one another, and I think it's one of the things that really helped me, and it was just by not. I don't think it was coincidence, but while I was going through the thick of it last year, I found out one of my teammates also had religious scrupulosity. So.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Snowing. Someone else had the same things going on. He was like, yep. Like, I've had those same thoughts. And it just kind of gave me that hope and kind of peace. Like, you know, there is a light in the tunnel. Like, he's gone through it, and they came out the other end. So it's just kind of like one of those things. Like, you know, you're not the only one going through it really gives strength. So, yeah, the fact that, you know, there's people that, like, I never knew this had a name, and it's kind of cool to be like, all right, this is what it is. Because I don't think a lot of people know what OCD is for the most part, because, you know, media kind of makes it out to be like, oh, he likes to keep things straight or clean, like, because most people are like, oh, I didn't realize you had ocd. Like, you never did this or that. Like, it was all going off in my head. So. Right.

[A]

You had a really messy room in college. How could you have ocd? Right. Right. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You wouldn't think I'd have OCD the way I have my locker at the facility, for sure. But, yeah, just definitely, like, having someone lean on, being vulnerable, like I said, being open to try anything. Because I think that's the biggest thing is, like, when you limit yourself on things that can help you out of fear or out of caution. The only way to beat this is to confront fear. I think that's the biggest thing, is to confront your fear, obviously, with someone that knows what they're doing. But also, I know another thing, though, is we're responsible for our recovery and being old, not just leaning on someone else, but taking it upon yourself, like, to do the extra work, because that's the only way we kind of, you know, make it through and, you know, at the end of the day, that's your own mind that you got to deal with every day. So you gotta take in your. Your hands and, yeah, do what you can. But, yeah, I guess those were just be like, some of the things I'd just be open to training because psychedelic therapy for me was not on the radar whatsoever. And, you know, I'm a big advocate for now, and I think it can really benefit a lot of people. And, you know, when you come down to the wire and you've tried everything and nothing's worked and you're desperate, like, it's always nice to have that option that you didn't know about. So, yeah, advocate for trying whatever you can is huge. And being vulnerable, talking to someone and, yeah, it's voicing, voicing yourself.

[A]

That's awesome. And we've even had Zane Gonzalez on here, too. He's the kick kicker. And, you know, he's got ocd. He's. He's come to the podcast and we've had a great chat, too. So it's. OCD's out there, it's everywhere. It doesn't matter. Line of work you are, sport, you're in. There are people with it. And I, again, am so appreciative of you being here to talk about it, to bring it into the open and to let people know again that you. It doesn't matter how big you are, how strong you are, you know, because OCD will attack anyone that it can possibly get into. Right. That's just what it will do, 100%.

[B]

That's, you know, I'm grateful the opportunity to be able to talk about, because I also think talking about. Talking about it, you know, takes away its power. And yes, you know, it's just like when we keep it all in, that's where it kind of, you know, festers in that darkness. But when you bring it out into the light, that's when you know you can kind of take your life, start to take your life back and take the power back.

[A]

Awesome. Well, and you've also really helped us to kind of think about, you know, this idea that there is still great research going on out there about alternate therapies and treatments. And there are plenty of labs that are doing this work. There are clinical trials that are happening about this. And so the best thing is follow the research, and you've done that, and I really appreciate that. So for everyone out there who's looking for help, know that there are great treatments available. There's great gold standards of therapy. There's a lot of stuff being researched right now to see what, what alternative treatments might be helpful or conjunctive therapies might be out there too. So one of the best ways to look for that is to check out the International OCD Foundation. Their website has some great information about that and we're always happy to chat with you here at nocd. That being said, Braden, thank you so much for being here today. Really, really appreciate your time and your openness. It means a lot.

[B]

Yeah, appreciate the opportunity just to speak to you.

[A]

Awesome. And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you like it, subscribe to the NOCD YouTube channel. If you're looking for help for OCD related conditions, check us [e-mail] that's nocd.com and always remember, be better to yourself than your OCD ever will be. We'll see you again soon.

[B]

Thanks.