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- [00:00]
A
I decided to study filmmaking, but perfectionism was kind of always looming in the background. By age 28, my symptoms had kind of snowballed out of control. It felt like my OCD and all these other comorbid disorders had hijacked my brain at that point in my life. I ended up becoming suicidal. I couldn't make sense of anything that was going on around me anymore. I was working on a Netflix show at the time that I had to quit.
- [00:27]
B
Where's the spark of I'm gonna do something with this?
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A
In the film industry, as a filmmaker and an artist, I like to explore dark themes. And so just the idea that your brain can think these really messed up things is really fascinating. And so it's a topic that I just wanted to dive into.
- [00:45]
B
There's another really powerful point in the documentary where you're standing at a parking garage, and this is the same parking garage you thought about jumping off of. You could have jumped off of that parking garage. Why didn't you?
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A
I don't know if I've ever really asked myself that before.
- [01:13]
B
Have you ever felt so overwhelmed by your mental health concerns that it hard to even contemplate getting help? Let's be honest. When you're really struggling, finding help and getting yourself to a therapy session can be really difficult. But that's where virtual therapy offerings like ours really make a difference. As a licensed clinical psychologist with 25 years of OCD treatment, I've worked with people to help them get their life back on track. I've also trained a clinical team to do the same here at nocd. No. NOCD is an online platform offering specialized, accessible and convenient OCD treatment. Our therapists take insurance and will work with you every step of the way to help you get your life back from obsessive compulsive disorder. So head to nocd.com to book a call to start your treatment journey. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel so you can stay up to date on our latest podcasts and webinars. Now, onto today's episode. Hi, everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. My name is Dr. Patrick McGrath. I'm the Chief Clinical Officer for NOCD today. A blast from my past. We met in 2019. It sounds more romantic there than it really was. How fun to see you again. Rachel Imaraj is here and I am excited to chat about the work you've been doing and the films that has come out and just. Just some great stuff that's happening so you start out as a set decorator, you get into making films. I mean, this is. This is like such a cool story to me that I'm excited to chat about. And OCD is all a part of that, too. So I'm wondering if first you could tell everybody a little bit about yourself and what brings you here. And then there's. There's so many questions I have. So I'm excited to chat.
- [03:10]
A
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me, Dr. McGrath, and thank you to no CD for having me as well. It's a very exciting opportunity and I can't wait to tell people about our movie. I'm very excited about it. So I live in Austin. I've been living here for about 17 years, and I work primarily as a set decorator within the film industry. So short films, commercials, and I also work as a set dresser on bigger movies and commercials. So I worked on 1923 last year, the Paramount plus show, which was very exciting. I worked on an A24 show last year. And so I've loved working in the film industry, specifically in set decoration. A lot of set decoration is about building characters, worlds, really getting inside the mind of a character and creating the setting that they're living in. And so I have been doing that for a while, working as a set dresser and a set decorator in the film industry. But I did end up taking a change in my career path slightly and moving more into the documentary filmmaking world. So right now I'm kind of straddling both of those worlds. But this documentary that I'm going to tell you more about called An Unquiet Mind is my first step into directing documentaries.
- [04:33]
B
Amazing. And OCD plays a role in that, right? I mean, obviously, I don't think you're just making a movie called An Unquiet Mind just because you thought, well, that that OCD thing looks cool. Why don't we make. Make a film about that? I'm assuming there's some more going on there.
- [04:55]
A
Yes. Yeah. Well, so I, you know, I was reading up about you, Dr. McGrath, and you've been studying OCD and working as psychologist for so long. And it's, you know, the closer that you get to understanding, the understanding how OCD works, the more I don't know, the more at peace I feel with it after understanding that, you know, I have ocd. And for me, my OCD symptoms started when I was 13 years old, which, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a scientific expert. But around that time, is usually when a lot of people start to have symptoms, like around puberty, around ages 12 to 13. And so for me, I was living with my family in Louisiana, and we had moved to Texas. And it was a big change for me. I moved away from a lot of my friends. And, um, I started experiencing OCD for the first time when I was 13. I was raised Christian, Southern Baptist, to be specific. And for me, the way that OCD first presented was through religious OCD or scrupulosity. And so what it looked like was repetitive prayers. It was a lot of tapping compulsions. It was a lot of mental rituals and compulsions. If I had a blasphemous thought or a blasphemous image in my head, I would have to replace it with a good thought or a good image. And so for most of my high school, I kept that under wraps because I didn't know what was going on. I'm 35 now, so when I was 13, that was. Gosh, what year was that? Math is hard.
- [06:36]
B
Yeah, 23 years ago.
- [06:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, 2003, I guess. And so back then, you know, not having social media, really not being so plugged into the Internet, I didn't really know what was going on with my symptoms. And so my OCD kind of faded away a little bit in high school and college. It turned into perfectionism. And as you know, OCD likes to morph and grow and change and latch onto.
- [07:02]
B
Oh, no, that's never happened before. What are you talking about?
- [07:07]
A
Never? Never, never.
- [07:08]
B
I've never heard of such a thing happening before.
- [07:10]
A
Yeah, yeah. And so when I was in college, I had a lot of struggles with, you know, existential OCD and perfectionism. What do I want to study? What do I want to become? I studied everything from architecture to pre med to petroleum engineering. I was all over the place. And so filmmaking I kind of fell into. I took a filmmaking class, which I absolutely loved. And for me, filmmaking is kind of the epitome of all different art types, because you're combining architecture and writing and lighting and, you know, all of these different art forms. And so I decided to study filmmaking. But perfectionism was kind of always looming in the background. After I graduated college, I was in a serious romantic relationship. And as most people on this podcast probably maybe know, OCD tends to latch onto the things that you care about the most and that are nearest and dearest to your heart. And so my intrusive thoughts started coming back when I was in this relationship. And it was the first time that I ended up seeing a counselor for the first time.
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B
Okay.
- [08:16]
A
And that was when I was diagnosed with ocd. But unfortunately, she wasn't a OCD specialist. And what I appreciate about NOCD is that, you know, NOCD is very specific about training therapists to, you know, an ERP and specifically for ocd. And so I. My therapist was great, but she wasn't specialized in OCD, which was a struggle. And so by age 28, my symptoms had kind of snowballed out of control. I was experiencing OCD with anxiety, panic attacks, disassociation, depression for the first time in my life. And. And the way that I can make sense of it all is just. It was a very big chemical imbalance in my brain. I wasn't on any medication, and it felt like my OCB had. And all these other comorbid disorders had hijacked my brain. And I didn't feel sober, for lack of better word. I was just a completely different person. And at that point in my life, I ended up becoming suicidal. I couldn't make sense of anything that was going on around me anymore. I was working on a Netflix show at the time that I had to quit halfway through. And luckily, I was with my. My family at the time that I was in the lowest moment. And my parents ended up forcing me to go to the hospital. And so I was in a psychiatric facility for about 10 days. And. And when I came out of the psych ward, I ended up enrolling in a program at the Houston OCD program, which I believe is called McLean.
- [10:01]
B
It was back then Liz Macle. Yeah, it's OCDI now. They.
- [10:06]
A
OCDI. That's right.
- [10:07]
B
OCDI. McLean is up in Boston now. And then the Houston OCD program is independent now. Liz McInvale runs it.
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A
Right. Okay, Okay. I get confused with all of these names.
- [10:19]
B
Well, they were. They were, and then they weren't. You know, it's just. They're like. There's a lot of. There's a lot of combinations and name changes in various places, so.
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A
I know CD is always in the title.
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B
Yeah, yeah, that. That's the most important part. Right, right, right.
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A
Yeah. And so I ended up enrolling in a residential treatment program there. And that was enlightening. Very difficult at first because it was the first time that I was doing erp, and ERP can be. Things can get a lot harder before they get easier. And so that definitely happened for me. When I was in the program, I ended up developing different types of OCD that I didn't even know existed. So that was fun and challenging, but, you know, with a lot of support from family and friends, with medication, therapy, the group of patients who were with me, they were so supportive. We still actually talk to this day. We still have a group chat, which is nice, with a lot of prayer, you know, exercising healthy, all of the things I was able to get better. And here I am today on this podcast with you.
- [11:28]
B
That's fantastic. And I. I'm so happy you mentioned something that we haven't discussed a little bit. And I wanted to just go over this before we get more into some of the film piece, that this idea of OCD will grab on to all sorts of things, and it's not uncommon. Once you start treating something, OCD will find out, okay, maybe. Maybe they're working on that one. But what are other important things that we can grab onto? And you experience that for sure. It sounds like that it was grasping at straws to try to hold on and say, that's important. That's an obsession here, obsession there. I mean, that sounds like what you were. You were describing.
- [12:09]
A
Absolutely. It's. It was almost. It felt like an obsession about obsession. If that makes sense.
- [12:15]
B
100%. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The. The ultimate difficulty in that. And what was it like for you going through treatment to finally learn that you could live with doubt and uncertainty and that you didn't have to have an answer for everything thing?
- [12:35]
A
Yeah. Honestly, that was one of the most helpful tools that I had never heard or learned in my life before, the idea of embracing uncertainty. Because I think for most of us, especially with, like, movies and media, mainstream movies and media, there's often happy endings and people making promises and saying, you know, I'll be back, or, I don't know, just different tropes in life where we're. We're almost programmed to feel like we have control over what happens, and that's not what life is about at all, unfortunately. And I think with ocd, with it being a disease of, you know, it's all about control, it's just so much more heightened for people who have OCD to feel like they have control over life. And so for me, the idea of uncertainty was very new and very strange and. But it really helped a lot to relinquish control and just say, like, I don't know what's going to happen. And, you know, with erp, the whole point of it is to lean into the uncertainty and say, like, this bad thing might happen, and I have to be okay with that. And that's Just life. Yeah. So that was a really important part of therapy for me and reprogramming my brain.
- [13:58]
B
One of the things I say to people is control's an illusion. This idea that we've created, this notion in our head, like you said, that we can achieve it, and yet every time we grasp for it, it's just slightly out of reach. And there's never been anyone yet that we've met that has been in total control of everything. Because to be in control of everything means you're in control of your thoughts and your feelings and your behaviors. So, you know, if, If I told you don't blink for the next 24 hours, you. You wouldn't be able to do that. Right. So you, you can't even control your body the way that you might be able to, much less if I tell you, don't. I always keep my. I always keep my pink elephant within reach. If I say don't, don't think of a pink elephant.
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A
Right.
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B
You're.
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A
You're.
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B
You're going to think of it. So. Yeah. So thank you for really, you know, just talking about that, because that's so important. And so here's this life experience of yours. With ocd, then you go through the levels of care. You really see what evidence based treatment does versus what not evidence based treatment probably did for you. I was wondering if you could touch on. On that slightly, too. What was it like going from the difference between therapy pre ERP and then receiving ERP and how it affected OCD and what it did to really change the trajectory of your life?
- [15:22]
A
Yeah, that's. That's a really good question. I think. You know, even though I know what ERP is now, I still struggle with doing compulsions, especially with my perfectionism. It sneaks, Sneaks in there all of the time. Right.
- [15:35]
B
It's a little bit of a jerky disorder, isn't it?
- [15:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm allowed to cuss once or twice, right? It's an asshole.
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's an asshole. You could say it's an asshole. That's fine.
- [15:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I think before ERP like I said, I really did like my therapist. The first one that I saw, she. She was really great and wonderful in a lot of ways, but she wasn't specialized in ocd. And so what that looked like, for example, with my religious ocd, I had a lot of compulsions about avoiding the color red because the color red had to do with the devil. And if I wore red, that meant that I was going to hell. You know, it was all of that narrative that we like to tell ourselves when you have ocd. And so my therapist would encourage me to reassociate the color red. Like, okay, when you, when you're wearing red, think about love or think about excitement. And so that reassociating is almost like, you know, that whole rubber band analogy. If you have a bad thought and you're wearing a rubber band and you snap it, it's like trying to reassociate the thought instead of with ERP or leaning in and you're, you know, I'm, I, what I should have been doing is wearing the color red and thinking like, I'm going to go to hell for wearing this color red and leaning into that uncertainty. And I think at first doing ERP was very scary because who wants to think those thoughts, you know? And it's not fun, it's hard and it's very difficult and your anxiety peaks like crazy. But in the end it's a lot more helpful in the long term versus the therapy that I was doing before. It was like putting a band aid on it and actually feeding into the compulsions more.
- [17:29]
B
Yeah, you get out of residential, I'm assuming, get back into the work world and where is the spark of I'm going to do something with this in the film industry. How does that, how does that come about?
- [17:47]
A
Yeah, I think for me, struggling with ocd, so much of it has been mental compulsions and obsessions. And it is very difficult even now to explain to somebody who doesn't have OCD what it feels like. And it's just, it's torture. And I think the way that it's portrayed in the media is it's a quirky, funny personality trait. You know, very often that's how people see ocd. It doesn't sound as severe as maybe schizophrenia does or bipolar disorder or depression. OCD is just seen as more of a light hearted disorder. And so for me, struggling with mental compulsions and obsessions for almost my whole life and having the torture of living with that, I just wanted other people to understand how debilitating it could be. And I don't think that I understood how debilitating OCD could be until I was hospitalized and until I was in this residential treatment program. And I had no idea that my OCD could have taken me that far. So I think I wanted other people to understand what I was going through. In addition to that, I had mentioned, you know, some patients who were in the program with me became Some of my lifelong friends and a couple of patients, they shared their stories about experiencing harm, OCD and postpartum OCD and pedophilia ocd, which are obviously very taboo types of ocd. And so hearing their stories, there is somebody in the program with me who had kids, and she was experiencing some thoughts pertaining to her kids. And it was just heartbreaking to know that, you know, people with families are in this residential program for a few months and away from their families because of this disorder. And so I think for me, I'll just say this. As a filmmaker and an artist, I like to explore dark themes. And I am interested in that for whatever reason. And so it's. It's fascinating the idea that our brains, you know, even if you don't have ocd, everyone has intrusive thoughts. And so just the idea that your brain can think these really messed up things about people that you love and people that you care about is really fascinating. And so it's a topic that I just wanted to dive into and have more understanding about it for myself and for my friends in the program and then share that with other people as well.
- [20:29]
B
You have to go out and find people who are going to be brave enough to tell their story on film. How do you do that? Where do. Where do you start in all of that?
- [20:40]
A
That's a great question. So whenever we were looking for people, I knew that I wanted to focus on these three types of ocd, because the most, from what I've seen, they're the least spoken about. Harm, ocd, postpartum ocd, and pedophilia ocd. And so I maybe not the least spoken about, but maybe the most misunderstood. Anyway, just from my. My perspective, I don't know if that's true or not, but I just knew that I wanted to focus on these three types of ocd. And so it was very important for me to be able to find somebody who expl Experiences that. And also, it really just broke my heart to see, you know, like, a mom having these thoughts about her kids. And so it was important for me to share that on screen because hearing about it and reading about it in a textbook is very different than hearing somebody's personal story, because we share stories as human beings because that's what connects us all. And so if I could have an audience hear somebody's personal story, then maybe they'd have more empathy and more care for people who experience ocd. And so for us, we, for my team, we put out, we reached out to different OCD clinics And said, you know, we're making a documentary about ocd. These types of ocd, if you're interested in participating, reach out to us. And so we ended up interviewing maybe around 20 people. We did phone interviews with people and heard their stories. And we narrowed it down to Vinay Krishnan and Natasha Nasser, who are the two participants in our documentary. Vinay Krishnan I actually met at the 2019 OCD conference that we met at.
- [22:29]
B
Cool.
- [22:30]
A
Yeah. And so he was in a support group. And another thing that was really important to me was to have people of color in the documentary as well. And so when I met the name, I was like, you know, somebody who is potentially Indian American. I want to get to know him and talk to him. And so I did. And it, you know, he was very excited about the idea. He works as a healthcare organization organizer for the center of Popular Democracy in New York. And so he's very used to speaking in front of people, and so he was excited about it. Natasha, she is a mother who has two kids, and their story is a big part of the documentary. And she was in a very similar situation that I was in terms of, you know, becoming suicidal, going to the hospital, and not knowing what was wrong. Then for her, she got the diagnosis. When she was in the hospital, she did an intensive treatment program. And she is just so passionate about helping other people through her story and wanting other moms and other people who experience these types of OCD to not feel alone. And so, you know, she does feel. I know she feels nervous about it. She feels worry. And, you know, how is her family portrayed? All of these things that are natural feelings of fear of what are people going to think. But her desire to help people is so much stronger. And it's very beautiful to see how passionate she is about she. In her story.
- [24:01]
B
Yeah. And just as a disclaimer, obviously, they. They have signed off. They're on the film, they. They've talked about this. So it's not like we're giving away things about them or anything like that. Yeah. So I just like to say those things in case anybody's question, that's for sure.
- [24:15]
A
Absolutely.
- [24:16]
B
I don't want to give the ending away because I think it's pretty powerful. But what I really did like about it was it showed a real life experience, especially with Natasha and. And not everything turns out perfect in all situations.
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A
Right.
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B
And so that. That hit me really big when I was watching it, thinking, I'm so glad that this isn't just a unicorn. Farts and rainbows. Ending to this experience. Right. It's a true ending. It's a real ending, and it's. It's someone showing how they've adjusted and changes that have happened in their life and how they've gotten through all of that with OCD and everything. So that I really appreciate. I just wanted to say that to you on a personal level, talking about it, because, you know, sometimes we. We want to see the happy, happy, happy ending. And here we see an ending which I think is a great ending, but probably not the happy, happy ending that everybody's hoping for.
- [25:22]
A
For. Yeah.
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B
Which is fine. Right? That's.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
So that's.
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A
It's almost a lesson about OCB is like, we can't control the things in the future. Things are. Exactly.
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B
I was thinking that. Exactly. It's like you not only did you portray that in the film, you show people who. That's really happening to and ongoing, and they're adjusting and they're handling and they're moving forward despite OCD trying to get in the.
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A
The way.
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B
Yeah. So kudos to you on that. I think it was.
- [25:54]
A
Thank you.
- [25:55]
B
Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. As they were doing the film and as you were doing the film, you know, where there. There's always going to be, you know, OCD is all about doubt anyway, but there's always doubts. What. How did your OCD try to interfere in the film?
- [26:13]
A
How much time do we have? Oh, that's a. That's a heavy question. Yeah. In a lot of ways, I think it still definitely is a big part of the movie. I struggle with perfectionism every day. And so editing the movie, you know, I edited maybe like a third of the movie. And so spending so much time with, like, thinking about how other people are going to perceive me, how other people are going to perceive Natasha and Vinay, all of those doubts and all those questions. But I think during the biggest challenge, I would say throughout this whole process is filmmaking is really tricky because there's a part of it that, to me is always going to feel a little exploitive, and I hate that because I think a big part of my moral OCD and scrupulosity is I want everyone to feel comfortable. I want everyone to feel happy. I want everyone to feel taken care of. And I hold myself to a very high standard with that. And so, you know, some of the questions that I asked Natasha, some of the questions that I asked Vinay whenever we, you know, did the exposure exercises, having. Deciding to have her kids as a part of the movie, like, that is probably My biggest. The biggest, like, fear of uncertainty about.
- [27:44]
B
Sure.
- [27:44]
A
You know, that decision, that was a very difficult decision and I think will always be a difficult decision. And so I think a lot of it was just about struggling with feeling like I need to be perfect. I need to portray OCD in this perfect way and I need to make sure that I'm representing it correctly and all of these things. And then just saying, you know, there's going to people be people who don't agree with this movie. There's going to be people who hear the word pedophilia OCD and think that we're supporting pedophilic actions. And there's going to be people who maybe judge Natasha for having her kids in it. And it's all of these uncertainties, which is so hard, because as a filmmaker and as an OCD advocate, my job is to rise above the doubt and be true to my role in this movie of doing the best that I can to spread awareness about OCD so that people can get help. You know, access can become more affordable, it can become more accessible, all of the things. And so I think that's the biggest struggle, all of these internal doubts and questions that I have about making the movie. But, you know, it's done. I can't really change it now that the documentary is out. It's, you know, and doing festival circuit. And one quote that I really like, that an editor has had shared with me previously, was that documentaries are never finished, they're just abandoned. And I really like that that's helpful for a perfectionist, where it's like, I gotta make it perfect. And it's like, you can't. You just gotta throw your hands up at some point and let it go.
- [29:27]
B
Yeah. There's another really powerful point in the documentary where you're standing at a parking garage and this is the same parking garage you thought about jumping off of. And I think it's so powerful to describe how you have two parts of this, Right? Because a, you can have a harm ocd, which could even be I could harm myself. And then you have also the depth that OCD could take you to, and feeling so terrible and low and hope and horrible. And it isn't about, like, a suicidal ideation ocd. It's actually about, I'd rather die than live with this OCD anymore. Right. So you have these two things. You're on the second part of that.
- [30:25]
A
You.
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B
You're at a point in your life where you'd rather not be alive, and you could have jumped off of that parking garage. Why didn't you? And what do you think about that, looking back at that now?
- [30:47]
A
Wow, that's a good question. It's a, you know, it's a question that I. Well first, thank you for asking that question because I, I don't know if I've ever really asked myself that before. And I think there's a lot of, there's probably a lot of reasons that I didn't, that I maybe not aware of. But I would say like reflecting on that time in my life, I truly think that it was a lot of, it was a lot of external support. I think if I were just by myself, you know, trying to cope with this internally I was alone and struggling with all of this, it would have been a very easy decision to make. But I was lucky and blessed enough to have my family, my parents, my sister, my brother in law, my nephew who was one who couldn't speak, but he was so cute that I would want to see him every day. And so my family. I had a really, really wonderful therapist, Dr. Angela Smith, and she was with the program at the time and she, I attribute so much to her for her really like advocating for me to stay in the program and really encouraging me. All of the residential counselors, I can't remember if that's the, their, their title, but all of the people who are there in the program, the, you know, the counselor who was there in the night, I had really bad insomnia. So sometimes I would go and knock on their door and wake them up. And it was all of the patients in the program because I had really bad insomnia when I was by myself awake at night. I also prayed a lot. I mean, I know it's a struggle because I had scrupulosity sometimes, still have it. But I also am still a very spiritual person and I do believe in God. And I think that that really helped me to pull from like a higher, a higher being, a higher universe, a higher power. And so it really felt like what stopped me from making that decision was this parade of external voices all around me, continuing to motivate me. And it like gave me that hope that things could be different. Because I think when people do get to that point of being suicidal, they don't think that thing, things could be different. And I think that's what happened with me was when I was in that place, I just didn't think anything could change. I had reached the lowest of the low and in my mind it was always going to stay like that. And yeah, I Don't know if I answered your question, but I mean, it's.
- [33:55]
B
It'S a. I, I don't know if there's a full answer to that question. Right. I mean, it's, it's, it's an interesting dialogue in the sense that we've had a lot of different topics here on the podcast and this is one we've not really talked about before. Where, where people were really at that point of do I want to be here and more, and who, what actions can I take to make that happen? Right. And, and there are, there are people in the world who have OCD who have gone through and suicided. Right. And, and that we've lost or for depression or for, you know, tinnitus. People have, have done it because they don't even like that sound anymore. You know, that, that we lose people, unfortunately every day who aren't able to turn around and look at the stars. Right. They're, they're stuck in the darkness or something like that. And a. I'm happy you're still here, let me say. So we could have this and you know that you could, you could take that and you could build this beautiful film to show others and hopefully give that message of hope. And, and I feel, and I felt watching it, that that to me at least was, was something that was really underlying the whole thing that there, there is hope in all of this. It may not always turn out again, the unicorn farts and rainbows, as I say, right. But there's hope. I mean, you, you, you yourself, there's still OCD in your life. You still deal with it. You know, even editing this film, you're like, you know, as I'm sure there were days like that. And yet it's out, right? It's ready, you can push through. And, and what a great message for folks. Even at the lowest of lows, there's still an opportunity to be able to reach out, you know, get out of the gutter, right, and find somebody who could guide you back.
- [36:07]
A
So. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's like the, the smallest amount of hope. That's what I felt during that time. It was just atom sized, but it was still there. And I think it still, it is scary when people lose that tiniest bit of hope. And I would say to people, like, even if you have that atom sized amount of hope, that's enough to like pull you back. And it might not seem like it in the moment, but it is because it will keep on growing. And growing. But then sometimes it diminishes, and sometimes it grows, and it's just ups and downs. Everything is ups and downs.
- [36:52]
B
Yeah. I think that's why I love the movie Shawshank Redemption, because there's that message of hope that runs through it. Right when Andy gets out and he leaves that note for Red and he talks about hope in that letter that he writes. It just. Yeah, there's. There's that hope. Another thing that I think, and. And this is something I. You don't know this, but we kind of share a little bit. One of the things that I heard years ago that I've loved to use in therapy is in order to be brave, first you have to be afraid. And you share a quote in the movie that says the goal isn't to be fearless, it's to be brave. And so I love the synergy there between those two things. How do you look at bravery, especially in the idea of approaching and getting through the other side of ocd? Because I think sometimes people will have this idea that if you're really brave, then you'll slay ocd. You'll conquer it. And I think bravery means you learn to live with it.
- [37:58]
A
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I'll share a kind of a silly story. During the pandemic, everyone picked up all these different hobbies during the pandemic, Right. And so I thought it would be a good idea to start learning how to skateboard at age 30. So I. I was, you know, learning how to skateboard, and there was one day that I was by myself, and I. For whatever reason, my brain was like, yeah, you can jump off of this curb. It's going to be fine. And I tried and had no idea how to do it. And, like, the board just went down, and I went straight, and I just went flying off of the curb. And I remember before I started learning how to skateboard, I was nervous about falling, and I was like, you know, if something happens and it's going to hurt real bad. And I remember in that moment, whenever I fell, like, I sprained my ankle. I got all cut and bruised up. It was so silly. I remember feeling like it was worse than I thought it would be, which is ironic because I feel like a lot of people are like, you know, oh, you just have to do a thing. And then when you do the thing, it's not as bad as you think it's going to be. But sometimes it actually can be worse than you imagine it in your brain. And I think that is true of things that happen in life. And I think that it sounds like a weird counterintuitive thing of what I'm saying, but I think we have to approach life like things might be more painful, they might be more scary, it might be a lot worse than you think it will be, but you still have to keep on moving forward. I don't know if that makes much sense, but I don't know. I do think that I can be a very risk averse person. I can get really anxious about things and when something ends up being worse than I think it was. Now that I've gone through erp, I have the idea of like, well, I'm glad that I did sucked and it was really hard. And you know, a personal tidbit from my life. I was in a relationship for two years and this summer I went through a breakup and I thought it was going to be, you know, absolutely horrible and it was really horrible. But I, you know, I still decided to make a decision to commit to that person and see how the relationship went. And it was, you know, it's just about making decisions and moving forward and seeing what happens in the end. And it might not be the best outcome that you want, but.
- [40:41]
B
Yeah, because.
- [40:42]
A
Oh well, because that.
- [40:44]
B
Isn't that like one of the cruxes of OCD though? Like, hey, if you follow my advice, everything's going to turn out great. But look, you made a choice to do something that was dumb and look how you bad you feel now. And boy, you could just see the allure of wanting to go back to. Well, OCD does promise good results and what you know.
- [41:03]
A
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's like making decisions and moving forward and you might feel regret because it might be worse, but you just got to move on.
- [41:13]
B
Yeah. How do people watch the film? How do they see it?
- [41:17]
A
Yes. So people can watch the film. Well, they actually can't watch it right now because it's not streaming. But we are currently in the film festival circuit. Oh cool. So people can hop onto our website. It's an unquiet mind.com and there we post where you can see the movie if there's a screening that's in your town. I'd also encourage people to follow us on Instagram. Our Instagram handle is an unquiet mind film where we'll also be posting where people can watch the movie. And yeah, right now we're currently in the film festival stage and so we are moving into launching our impact campaign and what that looks like as community screenings. So going to rural areas Going to schools, university, mental health clinics, and showing our documentary to people. And so we'll also be posting about that on our website and our Instagram. And then soon, hopefully, you know, we get a streaming deal or it'll be available online at some point in the future. But for now, I would just encourage people to follow us on. On Instagram.
- [42:27]
B
Rachel, I can't thank you enough for the work you've done and really showing this amazing light on what the lives of people with OCD are like and how they've dealt with the trials and tribulations of having to live with it, especially amongst people of color. And I think that brings. Bringing that cultural piece into it is also so very important because the face of OCD needs to be the face of everybody. Right? And so you've. You've really helped to broaden that with the work you've done. And so thank you also for that, too.
- [43:07]
A
Yes, thank you.
- [43:08]
B
What a joy to chat. I appreciate you being here. Best of luck with the film circuit here. How, how's the movie being received so far?
- [43:18]
A
It's being received really well. It's been exciting and we definitely have some traction going, and I think next year is going to be a pretty successful year in terms of people watching it, and I'm excited.
- [43:32]
B
Fantastic. Rachel, Immerash, thank you for being here today with us on the Get To Know OCD podcast. Any final words you want to say or where can people even get a hold of you? Same. Same Instagrams through everything.
- [43:47]
A
Yeah, same Instagram. And yeah, I'm. I'm just so excited to be on the NOCD podcast. Big supporter of NOCD and, you know, the affordability and the accessibility of everything that NOCD does. And so, yeah, thank you so much for having me.
- [44:06]
B
Thank you. And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out@nocd.com, that's n o c d dot com. And if you like the Get To Know OCD podcast, you can subscribe to our NOCD YouTube channel or get it wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And hey, remember, be better to yourself than your OCD ever will be. Thanks for watching.