Perfectionism or OCD? Understanding The Difference

Episode Overview

Podcast: Get to know OCD
Episode: "Perfectionism or OCD? Understanding The Difference"
Date: December 4, 2025
Host: Dr. Patrick McGrath (NOCD's Chief Clinical Officer)
Guest: Taylor Newendorp (Director of Clinical Training, NOCD, author of The Perfectionism Workbook)

This episode explores the nuanced differences and overlaps between perfectionism and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). Through a candid and practical discussion, Dr. Patrick McGrath and Taylor Newendorp unpack the roots, expression, and challenges of perfectionism, its comorbidity with OCD and anxiety disorders, and evidence-based therapeutic approaches for overcoming it. Real-life examples, memorable analogies, and actionable advice make this a must-listen for anyone wondering if their striving for 'perfect' is helping—or hurting—them.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Newendorp’s Background and Motivation (01:52–06:28)

Experience: Over 20 years as a clinician, specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders, especially using Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP).
Personal Connection: Taylor discusses his own past perfectionistic struggles and how therapy during his undergraduate years made a significant impact.
Motivation for Book: Witnessing perfectionism’s prevalence in clients with addiction, eating disorders, and anxiety.

“At one point, really during undergrad, my college years, [perfectionism] was problematic for me... I actually got a college counselor who was familiar with perfectionism and helped me understand that was what was driving a lot of my stress and some of my depression.” — Taylor Newendorp (04:49)

2. Defining Perfectionism & Its Roots (07:15–09:49)

Basic Definition: “Perfectionism is the tendency to set really unrealistic, often unattainable standards in the hope of achieving a state of perfection, a state of flawlessness.” — Taylor (07:15)
Subjectivity of Perfection: Both agree perfection is impossible and subjective; there is no universal standard for what is “perfect.”
Emotional Impact: Discovering perfectionism is unattainable can bring both frustration and relief.

“If something were truly perfect... all 9 billion people on the planet would look at it and go, oh, yeah, well, I mean, there you go. But we have nothing that meets that definition.” — Dr. Patrick McGrath (08:33)

3. Is Perfectionism (or “A Little OCD”) Helpful? (10:29–12:56)

Danger of the “Helpful OCD” Myth: The panel rejects the myth that a little OCD or perfectionism is beneficial.
Unrealistic Standards: High expectations may sound positive, but perfectionism means setting “unrealistic expectations and standards.”
Perfectionism’s Impact: It causes stress, anxiety, and critical self-judgment, contributing to depression and eroded self-worth.

4. Perfectionism in Everyday Life and Relationships (13:58–15:47)

Spillover Effect: Perfectionistic demands can create tension with loved ones and colleagues.
People Pleasing: Socially prescribed perfectionism leads to people-pleasing, where one’s sense of worth hinges on others’ approval.

“A lot of frustration, a lot of not understanding... trying to give positive feedback. And no matter what it’s still not enough for the person.” — Taylor (14:28)

5. The Never-Ending Cycle: OCD and Perfectionism (15:54–16:31)

Compulsive Loop: Similar to OCD’s compulsion cycles, perfectionists attempt something repeatedly, hoping for a state of “just right” or “perfect” that never arrives.

6. Where Does Perfectionism Start? (16:35–19:09)

Origins: Can have genetic, familial, or cultural roots, often compounded by well-intended messages about always doing your best.
Innocent Triggers: A simple compliment (e.g., “the best essay I’ve ever read”) can unintentionally launch a perfectionist spiral.

7. The Illusion of Perfection and Toxic Tendencies (19:46–29:24)

The Illusion: Believing perfection is achievable is “the trap.” Even when something feels “just right,” doubt and self-criticism return.
Five Tendencies of Toxic Perfectionism (21:14–29:24):
1. People Pleasing/Social Perfectionism
2. Self-Criticism: Excessively harsh, never feeling good enough.
3. Fear of Mistakes: Terrified of flaws; leads to checking/re-doing compulsions.
4. Thought Perfectionism: Believing thoughts themselves must be flawless (linked to OCD’s intrusive thoughts)
5. Procrastination/Avoidance: Fear of not doing something perfectly leads to delay or paralysis.
Quote on Procrastination:

“I never would have guessed [procrastination] is actually a function of perfectionism... The person is so scared they might not get it just right... It feels easier and safer in a moment to just put it off.” — Taylor (27:54)

8. Perfectionism, Depression, and Physical Health (32:58–36:21)

Overlap with Depression: Perfectionism’s pressure can lead to paralysis, hopelessness, and low self-worth.
Physical Toll: Chronic stress, headaches, insomnia, muscle tension, and risky coping (disordered eating, substance abuse) are common.

9. Treatment Strategies (36:21–39:13)

ERP Approach: Intentionally making mistakes or doing something imperfectly to build discomfort tolerance.
CBT Approach: For non-OCD perfectionism, challenge distorted thinking and core beliefs.
Behavioral Change Empowers Acceptance: Success comes when clients realize excellence is possible—and rewarding—without misery.

“It can be pretty cool for them to see, hey, I don’t have to get things perfect... and guess what? I can still excel. I can still be excellent at different things I’m doing, whether it’s academics, whether it’s my job...” — Taylor (38:12)

10. Debunking Myths About Perfectionism (39:13–42:20)

Myth #1: Perfectionism is good or useful.
- Reality: It leads to burnout and unhappiness.
Myth #2: Perfection is possible.
- Reality: “It’s literally impossible to achieve.”
Bonus Myth (Patrick): People who succeed do so because of perfectionism.
- Reality: Many succeed despite it, not because of it; striving for excellence doesn’t have to involve misery.

11. How to Accept “Good Enough” (42:20–43:37)

Behavioral Change Drives Acceptance: Acting against perfectionistic urges and tolerating discomfort show clients that “good enough” really is good enough.

12. Final Advice and Encouragement (43:37–44:50)

Let Go of the Trap: Chasing “just one more try” for perfection keeps people stuck.
The Unanswerable Question: “How will you actually know when you’ve achieved perfection? ... They actually don’t even know what that would look like.” — Taylor (44:25)
Seek Help When Needed: Awareness is the first step; seeking help leads to freedom from perfectionist traps.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“To be human is to make a mistake and to goof up and to learn and to adjust and to evaluate and all those things. But to never make a mistake would, would mean you’re not a human.” — Patrick (26:07)
“Practice does not make perfect… Practice makes routine because routines change.” — Patrick (31:05)
“You actually can learn a lot from getting stuff wrong. We tend to learn more from our mistakes and errors we’ve made versus everything we’ve gotten right in our times.” — Taylor (31:56)
“That’s the trap, right? It’s never going to work. If that’s the goal, just one more time, then it’s all going to feel just right and perfect forever. It’s not going to happen.” — Taylor (43:53)
“How will you actually know when you’ve achieved perfection? How are you going to know?” — Taylor (44:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Guest Introduction & Motivation: 01:52–06:28
Defining Perfectionism: 07:15–09:49
Perfectionism vs. Helpfulness Myth: 10:29–12:56
Family/System Impact: 13:58–15:47
Origins: 16:35–19:09
Toxic Tendencies of Perfectionism: 21:14–29:24
Physical Toll & Comorbidity: 32:58–36:21
Treatment Strategies: 36:21–39:13
Myths Debunked: 39:13–42:20
Good Enough is Good Enough: 42:20–43:37
Final Words/Encouragement: 43:37–44:50

Resources

Book: The Perfectionism Workbook by Taylor Newendorp (Available on Amazon)
NOCD Treatment & Support: nocd.com

Final Reflection

This episode underscores that perfectionism, far from being a virtue, is a sometimes invisible trap with emotional, social, and even physical costs. Recovery is possible—not through “just one more try,” but through understanding, behavioral change, self-compassion, and sometimes professional guidance.

“Treat yourself better than your OCD ever does. You’re worth it.” — Dr. Patrick McGrath (45:35)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Newendorp’s Background and Motivation (01:52–06:28)

Experience: Over 20 years as a clinician, specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders, especially using Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP).
Personal Connection: Taylor discusses his own past perfectionistic struggles and how therapy during his undergraduate years made a significant impact.
Motivation for Book: Witnessing perfectionism’s prevalence in clients with addiction, eating disorders, and anxiety.

“At one point, really during undergrad, my college years, [perfectionism] was problematic for me... I actually got a college counselor who was familiar with perfectionism and helped me understand that was what was driving a lot of my stress and some of my depression.” — Taylor Newendorp (04:49)

2. Defining Perfectionism & Its Roots (07:15–09:49)

Basic Definition: “Perfectionism is the tendency to set really unrealistic, often unattainable standards in the hope of achieving a state of perfection, a state of flawlessness.” — Taylor (07:15)
Subjectivity of Perfection: Both agree perfection is impossible and subjective; there is no universal standard for what is “perfect.”
Emotional Impact: Discovering perfectionism is unattainable can bring both frustration and relief.

“If something were truly perfect... all 9 billion people on the planet would look at it and go, oh, yeah, well, I mean, there you go. But we have nothing that meets that definition.” — Dr. Patrick McGrath (08:33)

3. Is Perfectionism (or “A Little OCD”) Helpful? (10:29–12:56)

Danger of the “Helpful OCD” Myth: The panel rejects the myth that a little OCD or perfectionism is beneficial.
Unrealistic Standards: High expectations may sound positive, but perfectionism means setting “unrealistic expectations and standards.”
Perfectionism’s Impact: It causes stress, anxiety, and critical self-judgment, contributing to depression and eroded self-worth.

4. Perfectionism in Everyday Life and Relationships (13:58–15:47)

Spillover Effect: Perfectionistic demands can create tension with loved ones and colleagues.
People Pleasing: Socially prescribed perfectionism leads to people-pleasing, where one’s sense of worth hinges on others’ approval.

“A lot of frustration, a lot of not understanding... trying to give positive feedback. And no matter what it’s still not enough for the person.” — Taylor (14:28)

5. The Never-Ending Cycle: OCD and Perfectionism (15:54–16:31)

Compulsive Loop: Similar to OCD’s compulsion cycles, perfectionists attempt something repeatedly, hoping for a state of “just right” or “perfect” that never arrives.

6. Where Does Perfectionism Start? (16:35–19:09)

Origins: Can have genetic, familial, or cultural roots, often compounded by well-intended messages about always doing your best.
Innocent Triggers: A simple compliment (e.g., “the best essay I’ve ever read”) can unintentionally launch a perfectionist spiral.

7. The Illusion of Perfection and Toxic Tendencies (19:46–29:24)

The Illusion: Believing perfection is achievable is “the trap.” Even when something feels “just right,” doubt and self-criticism return.
Five Tendencies of Toxic Perfectionism (21:14–29:24):
1. People Pleasing/Social Perfectionism
2. Self-Criticism: Excessively harsh, never feeling good enough.
3. Fear of Mistakes: Terrified of flaws; leads to checking/re-doing compulsions.
4. Thought Perfectionism: Believing thoughts themselves must be flawless (linked to OCD’s intrusive thoughts)
5. Procrastination/Avoidance: Fear of not doing something perfectly leads to delay or paralysis.
Quote on Procrastination:

“I never would have guessed [procrastination] is actually a function of perfectionism... The person is so scared they might not get it just right... It feels easier and safer in a moment to just put it off.” — Taylor (27:54)

8. Perfectionism, Depression, and Physical Health (32:58–36:21)

Overlap with Depression: Perfectionism’s pressure can lead to paralysis, hopelessness, and low self-worth.
Physical Toll: Chronic stress, headaches, insomnia, muscle tension, and risky coping (disordered eating, substance abuse) are common.

9. Treatment Strategies (36:21–39:13)

ERP Approach: Intentionally making mistakes or doing something imperfectly to build discomfort tolerance.
CBT Approach: For non-OCD perfectionism, challenge distorted thinking and core beliefs.
Behavioral Change Empowers Acceptance: Success comes when clients realize excellence is possible—and rewarding—without misery.

“It can be pretty cool for them to see, hey, I don’t have to get things perfect... and guess what? I can still excel. I can still be excellent at different things I’m doing, whether it’s academics, whether it’s my job...” — Taylor (38:12)

10. Debunking Myths About Perfectionism (39:13–42:20)

Myth #1: Perfectionism is good or useful.
- Reality: It leads to burnout and unhappiness.
Myth #2: Perfection is possible.
- Reality: “It’s literally impossible to achieve.”
Bonus Myth (Patrick): People who succeed do so because of perfectionism.
- Reality: Many succeed despite it, not because of it; striving for excellence doesn’t have to involve misery.

11. How to Accept “Good Enough” (42:20–43:37)

Behavioral Change Drives Acceptance: Acting against perfectionistic urges and tolerating discomfort show clients that “good enough” really is good enough.

12. Final Advice and Encouragement (43:37–44:50)

Let Go of the Trap: Chasing “just one more try” for perfection keeps people stuck.
The Unanswerable Question: “How will you actually know when you’ve achieved perfection? ... They actually don’t even know what that would look like.” — Taylor (44:25)
Seek Help When Needed: Awareness is the first step; seeking help leads to freedom from perfectionist traps.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“To be human is to make a mistake and to goof up and to learn and to adjust and to evaluate and all those things. But to never make a mistake would, would mean you’re not a human.” — Patrick (26:07)
“Practice does not make perfect… Practice makes routine because routines change.” — Patrick (31:05)
“You actually can learn a lot from getting stuff wrong. We tend to learn more from our mistakes and errors we’ve made versus everything we’ve gotten right in our times.” — Taylor (31:56)
“That’s the trap, right? It’s never going to work. If that’s the goal, just one more time, then it’s all going to feel just right and perfect forever. It’s not going to happen.” — Taylor (43:53)
“How will you actually know when you’ve achieved perfection? How are you going to know?” — Taylor (44:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

Guest Introduction & Motivation: 01:52–06:28
Defining Perfectionism: 07:15–09:49
Perfectionism vs. Helpfulness Myth: 10:29–12:56
Family/System Impact: 13:58–15:47
Origins: 16:35–19:09
Toxic Tendencies of Perfectionism: 21:14–29:24
Physical Toll & Comorbidity: 32:58–36:21
Treatment Strategies: 36:21–39:13
Myths Debunked: 39:13–42:20
Good Enough is Good Enough: 42:20–43:37
Final Words/Encouragement: 43:37–44:50

Resources

Book: The Perfectionism Workbook by Taylor Newendorp (Available on Amazon)
NOCD Treatment & Support: nocd.com

Final Reflection

“Treat yourself better than your OCD ever does. You’re worth it.” — Dr. Patrick McGrath (45:35)

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Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Newendorp’s Background and Motivation (01:52–06:28)

2. Defining Perfectionism & Its Roots (07:15–09:49)

3. Is Perfectionism (or “A Little OCD”) Helpful? (10:29–12:56)

4. Perfectionism in Everyday Life and Relationships (13:58–15:47)

5. The Never-Ending Cycle: OCD and Perfectionism (15:54–16:31)

6. Where Does Perfectionism Start? (16:35–19:09)

7. The Illusion of Perfection and Toxic Tendencies (19:46–29:24)

8. Perfectionism, Depression, and Physical Health (32:58–36:21)

9. Treatment Strategies (36:21–39:13)

10. Debunking Myths About Perfectionism (39:13–42:20)

11. How to Accept “Good Enough” (42:20–43:37)

12. Final Advice and Encouragement (43:37–44:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Resources

Final Reflection

Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Newendorp’s Background and Motivation (01:52–06:28)

2. Defining Perfectionism & Its Roots (07:15–09:49)

3. Is Perfectionism (or “A Little OCD”) Helpful? (10:29–12:56)

4. Perfectionism in Everyday Life and Relationships (13:58–15:47)

5. The Never-Ending Cycle: OCD and Perfectionism (15:54–16:31)

6. Where Does Perfectionism Start? (16:35–19:09)

7. The Illusion of Perfection and Toxic Tendencies (19:46–29:24)

8. Perfectionism, Depression, and Physical Health (32:58–36:21)

9. Treatment Strategies (36:21–39:13)

10. Debunking Myths About Perfectionism (39:13–42:20)

11. How to Accept “Good Enough” (42:20–43:37)

12. Final Advice and Encouragement (43:37–44:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Key Segments

Resources

Final Reflection