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- [00:00]
A
I am a psychologist, a clinical psychologist with postpartum depression. First off, there's the baby blues. Several days to a few weeks of feeling down, exhausted, maybe tearful. That's considered pretty, pretty, pretty normal. But then that would be different from postpartum depression, where you know, you're experiencing that lack of ability to feel pleasure. You might feel like you're not connecting with your child, and then you can have anxiety or ocd. I spoke up right away, said, I'm having these scary thoughts. In no way do I want to hurt my baby, but I need help. And I was able to get that help right away. My relationship then was shame, guilt, horror. There's something wrong with me now. Looking back, I feel a lot of compassion for that new mom that I was. If you're experiencing these sorts of thoughts and compulsions, obsessions and compulsions here with surrounding a new child, reach out for help and get professional help for erp.
- [01:10]
B
Have you ever felt so overwhelmed by your mental health concerns that it's hard to even contemplate getting help? Let's be honest, when you're really struggling, finding help and getting yourself to a therapy session can be really difficult. But that's where virtual therapy offerings like ours really make a difference. As a licensed clinical psychologist with 25 years of OCD treatment, I've worked with people to help them get their life back on track. I've also trained a clinical team to do the same here at nocd. NOCD is an online platform offering specialized, accessible, and convenient OCD treatment. Our therapists take insurance and will work with you every step of the way to help you get your life back from obsessive compulsive disorder. So head to nocd.com to book a call to start your treatment journey. And don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel so you can stay up to date on our latest podcasts and webinars. Now, onto today's episode. Hi, everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. My name is Dr. Patrick McGrath and I'm the Chief Clinical Officer here at NOCD. And I'm very excited today to have Dr. Mia Nunez, who I've worked with here at NOCD for years now, and she's joining us to talk about a couple of different topics. But before we get into that, let me let her introduce herself. Hi, Mia.
- [02:28]
A
Hi, Patrick. Thanks for having me.
- [02:31]
B
Of course. Good to see you. Tell everyone a little bit about you.
- [02:34]
A
Um, okay, about me. I am a psychologist, a clinical psychologist, and I work at NOCD with Dr. McGrath. But yeah, I am really passionate about the work. I got into clinical psychology, originally from cognitive psychology. I was in a lab, an undergraduate, looking at inhibitory learning processes. So that really gave me a bridge over to working with exposure based treatment and then ultimately specifically with erp.
- [03:05]
B
Awesome. And that's been quite the journey there then for you to. To get to where you're at. So thank you for the work you do. We appreciate it here very much at nocd, of course, Course. And wanted to kind of, you know, learn a little bit about you. So what drew you to going into psychology in the first place?
- [03:25]
A
Yeah, you know, certainly just seeing mental health struggles and people around me. I have no qualms in sharing. I have had my own mental health struggles as well. I think many of us that have entered the field have. And honestly, taking a really good AP psych course in high school, also shout.
- [03:50]
B
Out to the high school teacher of the AP psych class there then for great influence, I would say, over you. So that's good. All right. And how'd you get into the OCD field?
- [04:04]
A
Yeah, just. So inhibitory learning is proposed to be a prominent mechanism of action for exploring exposure based treatment and ERP specifically. So that kind of led me to starting to work primarily from a research angle at first in graduate school with people who needed exposure based treatment. You know, I was really interested too, in. In the memory work and before going clinical, but I just wanted there to be a more human element to it and to understand how what I was researching could really impact treatment and make a difference. So.
- [04:46]
B
So you said inhibitory learning a few times, and I may know what that is, but some of our listeners may not know our jargon that we love to use at times. So could you explain to everybody what is inhibitory learning?
- [04:58]
A
Yeah. So it starts with the concept that we believe that the things you learn are never actually truly erased. We can say they're forgotten in that you can't recall them anymore. But it's not like someone just took that association or that memory out of your head and it's not there anymore.
- [05:16]
B
So the idea that we. We don't unlearn things, which sometimes I hear people say you need to unlearn that. But do we, do we ever actually unlearn something?
- [05:24]
A
No. Instead what happens is we have inhibitory learning that. That occurs, which is like a new memory, a new association which inhibits the recall of the old association. And I could see that sounding a little confusing. So just as an example, say someone's Fearful of dogs. And the reason is they had an experience when they were young and a dog bit them. Right. They have this association, dog bite, dog run away, dog danger. It's not like they're going to forget that that happened or have those associations go away. But through erp, they can learn new associations which can then be recalled instead of the old fearful association. So maybe they get to interact with dogs where they're not bit and maybe the dog's even cuddly or fun, and then those are the associations they're able to recall going forward. So that would be inhibitory learning.
- [06:24]
B
Gotcha. Okay. And there's been some debate in the field around inhibitory learning and habituation. This concept of the uncomfortable feeling kind of going away over the passage of time and allowing it to be there. Could you speak a little bit to kind of the debate between the two and how we think about them in treating anxiety, OCD and, and maybe even what we do in therapy?
- [06:54]
A
Sure, yeah. So the habituation model, I, I would say also very, very relevant. Right. Sometimes you get these camps that they might seem like they're kind of warring, but I don't think they need to be. ERP seems to work for three different reasons really. There's habituation, the idea that anxiety goes down naturally on its own over time, both within an instance of approaching something fear inducing and between instances of doing that. It has to do with our nervous system and the idea that we can't actually sustain high levels of anxiety for a long time. So that's habituation. And then, you know, for a long time that was kind of seen as the primary mechanism, the thing that matters the most. They need to have habituation occurring. But we've also found that inhibitory learning is very important. This has been shown through evidence where we manipulate the way people learn and find that you get stronger outcomes when you're strengthening things that should strengthen inhibitory learning. And then there's also just building self efficacy and belief in one's ability to tolerate anxiety. So even if anxiety doesn't go down dramatically during an exposure, if someone is able to come to a place to learn that, you know, that wasn't fun. I didn't enjoy being anxious, but I could do it and I can do it again in the future, then that's really powerful as well.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah. And one of the things that I liked about bringing inhibitory learning into the picture was in the purely habituation model, if somebody's anxiety didn't go down, we would think, oh no, what's going wrong? With the therapy, why isn't it working so well? And at least with inhibitory learning, I think it brought into us the idea that, okay, they're not responding in their old way, and that's probably the most important thing. Even if they're still really anxious about it, at least we've seen the behavior change. And so we don't always have to have habituation as a way to measure if somebody's really seen improvement or an uptake of what we taught them in therapy. Is that correct?
- [09:11]
A
That is correct. And I think it's really important, especially considering we know there are certain presentations that might be less likely to experience habituation. For instance, disgust is not something we tend to see habituate the same way anxiety does, but we know disgust can be a reaction for someone with ocd nonetheless.
- [09:32]
B
Yeah, I still find coleslaw to be quite disgusting, even though I will eat it again. Uh, I, I, I still find it. Yeah.
- [09:41]
A
Well, for me, for me, it's pickles. I will never not be disgusted by pickles, but I don't like coleslaw either.
- [09:47]
B
All right, well, so there we go. Well, the worst picnic ever of coleslaw and pickles for, for the two of us, then. There we go. So thank you for that background. I really appreciate that. And, and then tell us a little bit about your role at NOCD and what you're doing.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah, so I'm the Director of Clinical Integrity, also Continuing Education, though I work closely with you, Patrick, on that as well with both of those things. And as Director of Clinical Integrity, basically, I'm one of the people really keeping an eye on the treatment we're providing and making sure it is of the utmost quality that we really want people to come to us and have this treatment and benefit, and we can be confident that they're going to benefit, you know, all things considered. As a part of that, I've got a really big focus in hiring therapists right now because we want to bring the very best into our network to work with our members.
- [10:48]
B
Yes, huge. Huge on that right now. So thank you for that. And then we have a large continuing education program here at nocd, too, through NOCD Academy.
- [10:57]
A
We do. And if anyone listening hasn't checked it out yet, free ces. What more do I need to say? Definitely, I'm in. Yeah, check it out.
- [11:08]
B
That's awesome. There's a few things, then, that, you know, you and I have spoken about, we've done even some CES about, and I think that it would be interesting to bring in here. One of them is about the perinatal or PostPartum experience and OCD and how that affects people. And I say people because it's not just giving birth. That means you're going to have potential OCD issues. Partners can have them. It can happen while you're pregnant. There's so many things that go on. But I wondered if I could give you the floor a little bit to talk about that perinatal OCD experience and what you've seen and how we go about looking at it, treating it, supporting people who have.
- [11:54]
A
Yeah, so very, very common. In fact, there's a paper that just came out like hot off the press by Abramowicz and, and his group showing I believe it was 87% of women they followed from like mid pregnancy to six months after giving birth did experience some sort of really intrusive, unsettling, upset setting negative thoughts, usually about harm con concerning either their infant to be or their infant who has been born. And you know, I really want to highlight that wasn't a group of women with ocd. In fact, the majority of that group had never been diagnosed with OCD before.
- [12:40]
B
Interesting. Okay, well, so then that really points to the idea that just the stressor in and of itself of having a child join your family can be a kickoff to a lot of interesting things. Right. And for some people, potentially negative experiences. This is, I know for me one reason why when I see someone who's recently given birth, I don't say, isn't it wonderful? Do you love it? I say, how, how are you feeling? How are you doing? I asked that even before I ask about the baby. Right. How are you doing? Because I know the effect that this can have on people and I wonder if you could touch on that about what it's like having a child, but then to have to experience some of these quite uncomfortable or negative experiences.
- [13:34]
A
Yeah, I'm actually so glad to hear that that's the way you interact with new, new parents. Patrick, I'm sure we can talk in more detail about this, but you know, I am one of the 87% from this, not literally, but I had this experience and let me tell you, the worst thing somebody could say was anything that reminded me of the fact that I wasn't having the experience that I quote unquote, was supposed to be having. The most well intentioned people would say things like, oh no, you're fine, you're so happy. Just stare into her eyes and you'll feel that connection. Well, somebody who's worried they're not Feeling that connection. What worse thing could you say? So, so first off, just great, great way of checking in on the parent instead of just the baby and potentially fueling more shame than they may already be be feeling. But yeah, I really think this is something we need to be screening for with, with anyone who's, well, certainly who's about to give birth, has just given birth or, you know, partners as well. Likely there is something hormonal going on. Right. It's, it's not. I, as far as I know, it hasn't been extensively studied. But you know, you think of the stressor of maybe you went from having little to a normative amount of stress and responsibility in your life to being handed this precious, tiny little life that feels so fragile and is completely dependent on you to completely continue living. It's a huge amount of stress.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah, yeah. And most people are familiar with the term postpartum depression, but they're not familiar with this concept of perinatal or postpartum ocd. So can you describe maybe what some of the differences between those.
- [15:36]
A
Yeah, I mean, it really speaks to mostly just the difference between depression and ocd. Although there is a new. People tend to say postpartum mood and anxiety disorders now, which is a step in the right direction. It doesn't say mood, anxiety and ocd, but you know, it's getting closer. But yes, with postpartum depression, first off, there's the baby blues. Right. Which I don't know if there's a more formal name for that. I've always heard them called the baby blues. It's a few weeks, potentially several days to a few weeks of feeling down, exhausted, maybe tearful, really kind of reeling from having a child. And that's considered pretty, pretty, pretty normal. Okay, but then that would different, be different from postpartum depression where you know, you're experiencing that lack of ability to feel pleasure. You might feel like you're not connecting with your child. You might feel numb. You might feel, have these thoughts and feelings of what's the point? You might not be eating or eating too much, not sleeping or sleeping too much, and even have thoughts of wanting to harm oneself just to often just to flee the depression potentially. So there's baby blues, postpartum depression, and then you can have anxiety or OCD as well, which looks the way OCD normally does, just most often surrounding ideas about harm coming to the child. So obsessions about what if my baby falls and hurts itself. What if I'm not a good enough mom or, or dad? What if I do Something that, that ends up in the baby, ends up with the baby being harmed or even what if I want to harm my baby? Very important to note that these are ego dystonic. These people do not want to harm their babies. I did not want to harm my baby. But nonetheless, the thought would emerge. Of course, you could have images of your baby being hurt, drowning in the tub, that sort of thing, trigger warning. But you know, it's important to say these things out loud because this is many people's experience. And then of course, the compulsions where free. They can be anything. But frequently it's going to be asking for reassurance, taking extra steps to make sure that no harm comes to your baby, or even trying to hand off responsibility. Because sometimes it can feel like I still don't want harm to come to my baby, but if it's not my fault, maybe that's a little bit better than if somebody else is currently in charge.
- [18:31]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And isn't it? Well, it's unfortunate because I think the standard advice to a lot of people is just don't think about it. Which of course is probably the worst thing you could say to somebody who's trying not to think about something.
- [18:52]
A
Yes, absolutely. And also is just going to reinforce the fear. Right. If you react to these thoughts, images, whatever comes up for you with like, that's not okay. I need to push that away. I need to not think about it. You're just sending a message to your brain that there is danger in those thoughts. So really we need people doing the opposite. Not perseverating on the fact that they're having these experiences, but allowing and acknowledging. All right. Yep. That's in my head. And I'm just going to let that be in my head.
- [19:24]
B
Yeah. And that can be one of the hardest things for people who are going through this is that allowing a thought to be there doesn't have to mean buying into the thought. Right?
- [19:37]
A
Absolutely not. I would not ask a new mom to focus in on like, yeah, I really want to harm my baby. I'm into this. This is. For one thing, it's not authentic. Right. But letting them lean into the uncertainty rather of the fact that harm could come to their baby and it could come to their baby at their own hand. We can't be a hundred percent sure. Right. We can't be a hundred percent sure. And that's the level of acceptance people really need to. To get to.
- [20:12]
B
Yeah. How did you kind of come out on the other side of that? What, what happened?
- [20:20]
A
Yeah. So it was A lot. I was semi lucky, potentially, in that when something like this happens to me, I'm very vocal. And for me, it was, forget the consequences. I need to tell people what's going on in my head right now. I need to get help. So I did speak up within days of my baby being born. This is my first baby, luckily, of my second child. I think I was prepared for this and was able to sort of just push away any thoughts that come up. Not push away, set aside and move forward with that thought being there. But. But with the. The first child, I spoke up right away, said, I'm having these scary thoughts. In no way do I want to hurt my baby, but I need help. And I was able to get that help right away. I had professional intervention with medication, but I did end up having to sort of do my own erp. I already knew my stuff with OCD and erp. You would have thought I would have been able to jump on this immediately, but even then, it took time. It took time.
- [21:39]
B
Sure. We're good at seeing it in everybody else but ourselves sometimes, though. Yeah.
- [21:44]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [21:46]
B
Yeah.
- [21:46]
A
And even. Even when I started to get a feeling for, like, yes, this is. This is. These OCD symptoms, that's what's happening. It still didn't negate. It didn't take away the fear or anxiety. I was just like, okay, now I know what I have to do.
- [22:00]
B
Yeah.
- [22:01]
A
But I'm still scared and anxious for the time being.
- [22:04]
B
Right. Looking back on that time now and those thoughts, how do. How do you feel about them now? What's your relationship to them now versus what it was before?
- [22:13]
A
Ooh, that's a good question, Patrick. I mean, my relationship then was shame, guilt, horror. There's something wrong with me, especially with those thoughts of, like, am I not bonded with my baby enough? I should have known better than to be doing this. But I remember Googling one night late, like, people who don't love their children and, like, being like, is that me? Is that me? Obviously compulsion. But so a lot of shame and guilt and concern about what it said about me as a person. Now, looking back, I feel a lot of compassion for that new mom that I was. And I mean, honestly, for anybody in that position, I don't feel like it has caused me to have any sort of a different relationship with my child. I don't fear for my child's safety the vast majority of the time, unless she's doing something she shouldn't be doing or climbing something way higher than she's supposed to be climbing. So more normal, normal concerns. But yeah, now looking back, I mean, you can see that the thoughts aren't logical. You can see, see that there wasn't danger, but in the moment, it sure felt like there was.
- [23:39]
B
Sure. So at these times it is possible, you know, based on what you've described, what the article you described said, people can have these things, but not meet the criteria of full fledged ocd, but still be experiencing a lot of this. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about, you know, what differentiates OCD from something that might be more of a set time or a fleeting experience or something like that.
- [24:08]
A
Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting, it's worth questioning. Would I have met criteria if I were assessed? Maybe I would, maybe.
- [24:17]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [24:19]
A
There's no real, like set time frame for OCD the way there is, like, for instance, for depression where it's like two weeks, you know, so it's not as clear. But I. I mean, I'm okay with not having been diagnosed in that I have not had issues going forward. Once I was able to get through that period of, I would say, like, probably about a month or so before I really got a handle on it, it continued, but wasn't really impairing anymore past that point. And since then I haven't experienced any OCD symptoms. So, you know, I think it's an open question whether that means that qualifies for an OCD diagnosis or not, and whether there are these distinct groups in, in these people who are experiencing these symptoms. Are there ones that will go on to continue to have OCD symptoms, which is the more typical course of somebody who is diagnosed with OCD versus a group that. That this is something that's kind of unique and only happens to them in the perinatal period. Yeah. I'm not sure, but I'd say time frame is the main differentiator for me.
- [25:36]
B
Yeah. And the idea, of course, that we know that OCD really is a chronic condition. So I think for you, maybe if it had then gone on to something else, we definitely would have wanted to take a look at it. Versus might this just be more a way that people react after a baby comes into their life? Right. That this is just one of the ways that things happen when you have a child. Right.
- [26:06]
A
Yeah, certainly. Yeah. Sort of like that differentiation between baby blues and postpartum depression potentially.
- [26:15]
B
Right. The thing that I like and what you kind of described and what you kind of walked yourself through is that even if you're not meeting full criteria for something, you can still use the ERP principles to help yourself through the experience, correct?
- [26:29]
A
Oh, yes, a hundred percent. And that's what got me through it. Response Prevention was a huge piece educating my family about not accommodating me, which is a tough thing to do for yourself. You keep wanting to walk it back. Yeah, yeah, it was unfortunate. And exposure just through the. The avenue of spending more and more and more time with my baby, which honestly, I was motivated to avoid doing before I kind of, you know, figured out this is what you're experiencing. You know, how to respond to this. Stop avoiding. Stop doing compulsions.
- [27:07]
B
That's gotta be difficult for the spouse in that situation, too, because they, of course, want to help you as much as they possibly can and probably don't realize that some of the help that they might want to provide is actually going to be safety behaviors that might actually maintain the problem, even though they may seem in the moment to alleviate the stress.
- [27:29]
A
Yes, definitely. And especially my husband and my mother were both extremely supportive and at times unknowingly, in an unhelpful way for what I was experiencing. But, you know, I. I was feeling grateful nonetheless, but.
- [27:46]
B
Right.
- [27:47]
A
Sure, they would. The one thing that I was really terrified of was giving her a bath.
- [27:52]
B
Okay.
- [27:53]
A
So. And that's something they would be quick to say. Hey, don't worry about it. Maybe you just sit and watch and enjoy or have her bath, but I'm going to do it for. For you.
- [28:03]
B
Okay.
- [28:05]
A
So that was something. We had to walk back really quickly.
- [28:09]
B
So then you had to eventually do it, right? You had to be the one.
- [28:12]
A
Yes. And it was sort of a reverse shadowing sort of situation.
- [28:16]
B
Okay.
- [28:16]
A
At that point, I was watching them do the back. That was even. That. That was a little difficult even in and of itself. But then I started sharing with them. Right. Maybe they're holding her head above water. It's one of those little infant, you know, newborn baths. But I'm doing the washing, and then eventually I'm doing the entire bath, but someone's there for a little extra support because that was the trajectory that made sense for me. And then I got to a place where, hey, no one else is home and I can still give my daughter back.
- [28:49]
B
Yeah. What's that like to come out on the other side of that? I mean, that. That feeling when you do that the first time you're alone, you give her a bath. How do you. How do you feel at that point?
- [29:05]
A
Triumphant, I would say, but still scared, too. That first time I gave her a bath on my own, nobody home. I was, I was still scared even knowing what I know now that thoughts are just thoughts. Obsessions are not fact by any means. Right. It still felt unsettling and it was a slow process to get to actually start to enjoy, you know, the little splashes and the baby giggles. I didn't enjoy that right. At first.
- [29:37]
B
Yeah.
- [29:38]
A
I don't, don't think I even really like noticed because I was so focused on doing the things right. So she didn't come to any harm. So as it got easier, I actually came to find joy and, and value that time. Yeah.
- [29:55]
B
Then though, you know, because whether it meets the full criteria of OCD or not, there's still going to be some of that back end spike of oh, isn't it a shame you didn't actually enjoy your baby when your baby was born and the guilt that probably follows with that. Did that happen too?
- [30:11]
A
Yes. And that's actually. You said, what's it like to come out on the other side? Another piece of coming out on the other side is you almost get this like intense like feeling of purpose for other new parents.
- [30:25]
B
Sure.
- [30:25]
A
Similar to what you're saying, Patrick, about I'm not going like, oh my gosh, aren't you so happy with anyone I know? Friends, spouse, spouses of friends, you know, close friends, acquaintances. I always try to put out a feeler, not in a way that would scare anybody, but of like, hey, sometimes it's not easy. I'm here to talk if there's ever anything difficult you want to talk about. But to that being said, the reason I feel that way is because, yeah, there was that back door sort of feeling of why did you go through that? Other people don't talk about this. It doesn't seem like this happens to other people. You, there must have been something wrong with you. A lot of the I just must not be a natural mom sort of feeling. Um, so then looking into it more, it was really empowering for me to find these studies that say it seems like most people experience some of this at least and maybe just don't speak up about it. Um, but so yeah, really trying to spread the word even in my own day to day life.
- [31:37]
B
Yeah. So tell me then, there are people out there who are experiencing this now. What, what do you want to say to them? What's your advice for them?
- [31:49]
A
Oh, gosh, self compassion. You just did something really incredible. Whether you're the one who gave birth or, or not, you're bringing life into this world and you know, putting something much of yourself and every minute of your time into this little creature. Give yourself a lot of compassion. Understand that that is normal. It, it's really something that I wish were spoken about more. And it's not just you. It doesn't say anything about you as a parent and you can get on the other side.
- [32:29]
B
Yeah. And it also doesn't mean that you're a bad person because a lot of people will say, I'm having these bad thoughts, which always I, I try to correct right away and say there's no such thing as a good or a bad thought. Thoughts are just thought. But if I have these bad thoughts, then it means that I am a bad person because I'm having bad thoughts. And you know, then that would mean that good people only have good thoughts and neutral people only have neutral thoughts or something like that. Right. We. We are humans with a range of various thoughts and feelings and emotions and urges and images and impulses and any other things that we might experience. And if we were to be judged by any one of them, probably all of us would be in jail at this point if that was the case. Because I don't, I don't know that any of anyone who hasn't had some kind of thought, image or urge that wouldn't put them in jail, myself included. But we're not just the one time experience. Right? We're the collection of all of those things. OCD wants you to be judged by one thing. OCD says that one thing was so terrible, bad and awful, horrible. Then we need to focus on that for the next 7,000 hours or so and spend a lot of time thinking about why that was and what that meant and all these things. And I'm glad that we have people out there like you, who are willing to tell your story and share with people and to provide the professional help that you do to others so that they don't have to hopefully go through some of the same things that you'd.
- [34:14]
A
Yeah, that's. That's the hope. Absolutely awesome.
- [34:18]
B
Mia, final thoughts that you would like to share with everybody before we wrap up today.
- [34:24]
A
Oh, gosh. Well, you just did a really good job of it just now, but. Echoing yes, that. Don't beat yourself up over, over this experience. Clearly it's really common. We know OCD tends to go after the things people value and care about. So you're probably having them because you have this new creature you're anticipating. I keep calling them creatures. I just think that's a little baby creature, but also that, you know, you might be about to have a Little creature you currently have a little creature you're solely responsible for. Makes sense. It makes sense that these things come up for people. It's a really stressful time. Ask for help. It can be scary, I think especially with this sort of experience, it can be scary. But asking for help was the best thing I did, you know, find trusted people to ask for help. Yeah, medical providers, I think everyone's trying to do their best by everyone, always. Right. But also a lot of them aren't super educated in, in peripartum ocd. So if there's a medical provider you don't feel particularly like you trust or want to open up to, that's okay. That's not your person you're going to open up to. But find someone that you can, you know, find a therapist. They tend to be more likely to be knowledgeable, but especially an OCD specialist will be very knowledgeable. You can of course check out nocd. We work with a lot of new parents or soon to be parents who have these concerns coming up. Be kind to yourself. You can get through it. Ask for help and you can absolutely get on the other side of this and have a completely normal, happy relationship with your child.
- [36:27]
B
Awesome.
- [36:28]
A
And another thought, I just had Patrick actually thinking about what I went through. I think I was in a lucky privileged position to already be trained in ERP and be practicing in this. So it made sense for me to be able to walk myself through this and know the steps to take. Generally, we don't recommend doing that on your own. Right. And even for me, maybe I would have had even better results had I had gone to, you know, a trained professional as well. So I definitely, definitely recommend, like we said, ask for help and then get the help. If you're experiencing these sorts of thoughts and compulsions, obsessions and compulsions here with surrounding a new child, reach out for help and get professional help for erp.
- [37:17]
B
Awesome. That's great advice. Yes. Because you can read lots of manuals and I'm sure there's tons of books around these things. But remember this, even if you're a sports fan and the highest plate payer on the team still has a coach, so there's nothing wrong with bringing somebody else in to coach you through this experience and get you to the other side.
- [37:37]
A
Yes, absolutely.
- [37:40]
B
Dr. Mia Nunez, thank you so much for being here today. Really appreciate it. It was a great chat.
- [37:45]
A
It was. Thank you again for having me on.
- [37:48]
B
Awesome. And thank all of you for watching the get to Know OCD podcast. If you like it, you can subscribe to the NOCD YouTube channel or get it wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And if you're looking for help for OCD or related conditions, check us out@nocd.com that's n o c d.com we're waiting to chat with you. Be good to each other. See you next time.