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- [00:00]
Sam Sapawi
Foreign.
- [00:06]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Hi, everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of the get to Know OCD podcast. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the Chief Clinical Officer for NOCD. If you're looking for help for OCD related conditions, check us out@nocd.com we do work with OCD and tics and hoarding and body focus, repetitive behaviors and trauma and depression and all sorts of other things too. So we're more than happy to chat with you about what we can do for you here at nocd. And if you like the Get To Know OCD podcast, you can subscribe to our NOCD YouTube channel today. My guest is a producer extraordinaire, Sam Sapawi. How are you, Sam? What's going on?
- [00:47]
Sam Sapawi
I'm good. It's so good to see you, Patrick.
- [00:49]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
It's so good to see you too. And I want to thank you for all the work that you've done with us at nocd here with your. Your work at Healthline. It's been really, I think, just so professional and well done. And all the studio time that we did was. Was really fun. I really enjoyed it.
- [01:09]
Sam Sapawi
So it was my pleasure. And honestly, the work you guys are doing is truly second to none in the OCD community and bringing the treatment, making it accessible. I. I'm just happy to be a part of it.
- [01:26]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
You did a short film which had a cameo by yours truly, which I'm so excited about, by the way, but it's called for all I know. Can you tell us about the film and why even make a film, a short film about ocd?
- [01:46]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. I mean, look, Healthline wanted to make a film about a topic that I was very close to me, and that is ocd, which is something that I live with, I've was diagnosed with when I was 12 years old and as a filmmaker. But, you know, my natural instinct is, well, how can I use storytelling to. To express myself in a way that feels true to me, but also to move the needle in an area that I care about. So, you know, if there's a way for me to make an impact in the OCD community, you know, I'm going to use my skill set in the way that I can to kind of help change the narrative on a condition that's so highly stigmatized. And Healthline wanted to make a short film. We were, we've been talking about that for a while. And ocd, you know, as something that was very personal to me, felt like a natural fit for this project. And at that point, we had connected with you and Steven at nocd. And, you know, this was sort of a Match Made in Heaven type situation to help create a powerful piece of art that could really do something and impact a lot of folks living with OCD and just the general conversation around ocd. So we did make this film, for all I know, which follows Sandra, who's a pharmacist. It takes place over a single day at work and then ending with a reunion with. With her estranged daughter. But really we're. We're inside her head the whole time, watching her battle intrusive thoughts in real time.
- [03:36]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
And that's what I think was really powerful about it. Because many movies, as I'm sure you're aware with OCD are just going to show people doing compulsions and they don't really get into the what's going on on the inside that's leading to this thing happening. And I loved the way that it was done here, where we could hear her thoughts and see the images that were popping into her head and almost experience, like, what? Why am I having this urge to do something? So it really captured all of the way that obsessions might be present in someone's mind.
- [04:14]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. I mean, being able to externalize intrusive thoughts is. It feels like the only way to truly communicate the horrific struggle that happens within a person's mind who lives with ocd. You know, there's visual ways to do this, and we do that in the film as well. But the thoughts can be so dark and so distressing that it's not something that the film and television industry typically finds to be marketable. Right. We sort of are able to go there with this film because the hope, at least with that, is for those who are not living with OCD to actually experience the true distressing nature of the thought, the intrusive thoughts that someone with OCD might live with. And the only way to do that is to actually externalize those intrusive thoughts so that those not living with OCD can feel the same terror that someone who is living with OCD is experiencing. The other thing is for those living with OCD who get to watch the film to also know that, hey, it's. Everyone has these thoughts, and these thoughts are not unique to just my ocd. Potentially, it's unique to someone else's ocd. And I'm not alone. Which was a big. A big part of us trying to visualize these external thoughts or these intrusive thoughts externally.
- [05:53]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
The title, for all I know, what was. What was the kind of reason for that as the choice for the title,
- [06:04]
Sam Sapawi
it kind of plays into the uncertainty aspect of ocd. OCD loves certainty, of course. And the whole idea behind living with uncertainty is sort of the foundation of ERP as, you know, exposure and response prevention. And, you know, the. The phrase for all I know came to me because when you're. When you're living with OCD and you're trying to gain certainty over something, you start to realize, like, what do I know? I mean, for all I know, this could be true. For all I know, that could be true.
- [06:41]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [06:41]
Sam Sapawi
Right. And for all I know, you know, a rocket could fall out of the sky and land right in front of me. So nothing we know is certain. Right. And for all I know, all my thoughts could be completely false or untrue. They could be real. They get. So that title just sort of stuck with me in the initial ideation and, you know, the reality that. That we sort of paint and in our lives, that we put the categories, we put things into. It's all manufactured. It's all something we do in order to receive some sort of certainty for ourselves. And ultimately, at the end of the day, it's about, well, what do we know? For all I know, this could be true. For all I knew, that can't be true. That wouldn't be true. So that's kind of the basis for the title of the film.
- [07:39]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, I really like that because, you know, obviously, as a person, for yourself living with ocd, you've. You've had to deal with that with yourself. Right. Just being able to live with the doubts and the uncertainties and recognize that, you know, everything that pops into my head isn't something that requires a lot of energy or effort or doesn't even have to be, you know, contemplated all that much. Sometimes there's just some weird stuff, right?
- [08:05]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Plenty of mental garbage going around.
- [08:08]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah. So the film, I mean, I. I will say I love the main character. She. The acting, fantastic, by the way, just because you can really see on her face the agony that she experiences. And when. When a lot of films out there kind of show ocd, it. I don't think it gets to the agony of it. I think it almost is like, oh, that's funny, or, oh, look, that. That actually was helpful to them. And we know that OCD is not helpful by. No one with OCD would say, yeah, I'm really so glad this. This is in my life, and I'm so thrilled to have it because it made everything better. You know, when. When you're coaching the people in the film, right? To. How do you, how do you get them to truly understand that level of agony and grief? Because she portrayed it so well.
- [09:15]
Sam Sapawi
Well, you start by casting a phenomenal actress, Rachel Alec. She, she was just incredible working with her in this process because she was so curious, you know, as she came into this film with just a general knowledge of ocd. So, you know, whatever sort of the cultural mainstream sort of depiction of OCD was like, that was her understanding of OCD going to the film. She came into it with so much curiosity and read the script and thought, I have no idea, I had no idea that OCD presented like this. And so out came all the questions. And she was very eager to learn about OCD and how it works internally, mentally, physically, emotionally. The OCD cycle. You know, just having an actor come in and say, yeah, I want to learn about the OCD cycle, the obsession compulsion, the whole emotional process. She internalized prior to us filming this film and reading stories of those living with ocd, but then not intellectualizing it too much because when you're working with an actor, you know, it's easy to, as a director at least to, to give this, like, result oriented direction of like, all right, these are the circumstances and then, you know, you're going to. This is what happens in the scene. And you know, it's important to feel this way. That's. It's called result oriented directing and that intellectualizes a lot of it. But we don't, we don't act from an intellectual place. We act from an emotional sort of internal, motivational, outcome based place. And she was able to sort of take all of that intellectual thinking and emotionally internalize it. And no matter what situation we put her into, she knew immediately what Sandra would do in that situation.
- [11:20]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
It almost to me sounds like OCD the way you're describing it. Right? Because people can know intellectually one thing, but feel something emotionally that's totally ego dystonic and off kilter, you know, not what they would identify as them. And I think that even at one point with the World Health Organization saying OCD is one of the top 10 most disabling conditions that you could have comes from that idea that I know this, but I feel this. And boy, there's a discordance there between those two things.
- [11:51]
Sam Sapawi
Right, right, right. 100%. You know, we are very mysterious creatures. And I, I think actors have one of the hardest jobs on the planet because they have to somehow navigate what they know to be true and how they feel to be true. And you know, somehow find a way to consistently find a through line and tell a story that is completely consistent over the course of an entire film from an emotional standpoint, that there's this sort of, like, arc and through line and spine to a character. And I. I just. I think they have the hardest job in the world because we're not robots.
- [12:33]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right.
- [12:34]
Sam Sapawi
We can't turn something on and off. But somehow there are some really phenomenal actors out there that. That it. Are able to. To really tap into something truly human. And I think Rachel did that in an extraordinary way.
- [12:48]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
I. I agree. I. I was watching it and thinking she. She might actually have ocd.
- [12:54]
Sam Sapawi
Right.
- [12:55]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
You know, I mean, as in her life, Just. Just from how she portrayed it so. So very well.
- [13:00]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, yeah. We got to a point where, you know, there was a very unspoken language between us through the creation of the film. Like, she. She was able. We were able to. To have developed this shorthand, like in. In a scene, you know, where I would. I would start to. To say a sentence. She'd be like, oh, no, no, I know. I know exactly what you're like. She. She totally understood the direction we were going before I even got there because of how much we had talked at length about the script and the way OCD presents itself in general and just the sort of emotional spine of the character.
- [13:41]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, well, amazing for her, but also what a credit to you to be able to explain it to that level, that somebody could interpret it that way. So thank you for the work you did on that as well, because it doesn't happen without that direction going on.
- [13:57]
Sam Sapawi
Thank you. Thank you.
- [13:59]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
I'm wondering if we could show a few little clips and maybe discuss them and, you know, know what your thoughts were about taking it in these areas and what you were really trying to portray to people about ocd.
- [14:17]
Sandra (Character in the film)
I'm really not a bad person. I. I just have bad thoughts. You can't tell me you haven't thought about pushing something, someone in front of the A train or sticking your hand into the garbage disposal or had the urge to swap someone s. With cyanide.
- [14:46]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Wait,
- [14:49]
Sandra (Character in the film)
check again. Normal pharmacists don't think about killing their patients. No, stop. Focus.
- [14:59]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Sam. I wanted to say right off the bat, you know, just in those first few lines, talking about what's normal versus not normal, you know, the debates that go on, I think within the brains of people with ocd. So where, you know, what were you really hoping for in that? Just right off the bat for people to really understand.
- [15:24]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, I mean, first things first. You know, in those initial moments, I wanted viewers to get right into Sandra's head with her.
- [15:32]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [15:33]
Sam Sapawi
Because immediately, you understand, she's in the middle of this battle of thoughts that OCD or, or no ocd. We have these sort of like arguments in our heads all the time when we're debating something. But like, what is she debating? She's debating something different than the. You know, most people don't have these debates because a lot of the mental garbage is dismissed. But somehow a thought stuck for her. Right. It's a normal pharmacist wouldn't, wouldn't do this. Right. Her brain hijacked that moment. So we're in this with her, you hear her internal monologue and that that opening establishes the rules of the film. We're going to be inside her head and the thoughts are her own voice. And the central question is, am I a bad person? And immediately we're in.
- [16:32]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah. And this notion of a bad person. Right. What a, what a driver for ocd, Right. I mean, just what can I do to make sure that I wouldn't ever do anything bad or wrong or awful, horrible, terrible, disgusting, shameful, guilt ridden, Something of that nature. Right.
- [16:58]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, it's a big one. It's a big one. Because I know so many OCD subtypes are driven by this key idea of am I a bad person? Know, and what is a bad person? Right. And it's a question that, you know, is not easy to answer and then different depending on who you ask.
- [17:21]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right.
- [17:22]
Sam Sapawi
So OCD loves that. Right. That gray area of, of, of a question that doesn't have an answer to it. That's very clear.
- [17:31]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right. Because I've seen people who say they're bad, they're a bad person who have done, as far as they know, and I know, nothing terrible like murdering someone. And yet they'll consider themselves to be as equally bad as somebody on death row because they thought at one point, I wish that person wasn't alive. And through thought, action fusion thinking. That is just as bad as killing that person.
- [17:58]
Sam Sapawi
Right, right, right. And you know, for this specific scene, like, what we wanted to do was actually display her values immediately. And by doing, we did that by immediately giving viewers a look into her intrusive thoughts. Because we know OCD attacks the thing you value most. Sure, right. She values being a stand up person. She values being a good pharmacist, a caring pharmacist who cares about her patients that would want, never want anything bad to happen to them, to her patients.
- [18:35]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [18:36]
Sam Sapawi
And we immediately know that because we know she has ocd, these thoughts are attacking the things she values most.
- [18:45]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
You also normalize in there. This concept of thoughts popping into our head. I mean, that idea, like, who hasn't thought about I could push somebody onto the train tracks or I could turn the wheel and the car go off the bridge or something like that. I mean, those are the. Those are normal human types of where did that come from? Types of isms. But in ocd, they take on a different meaning than they do in people who don't have ocd.
- [19:14]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly we, we wanted to kind of insert there. There is a little bit of a throw there to the audience, you know, Right. Right off the bat, as if she's almost talking to you, the audience. Although she's having this dialogue inside of her head, you know, she does throw it a little bit. Say like, hey, you have these thoughts too. I'm not bad.
- [19:39]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right, right.
- [19:41]
Sam Sapawi
For having these thoughts. You have those thoughts. I'm just latching onto it and ruminating
- [19:46]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
about it over and over again and then showing. Doing a compulsion to try to neutralize it by redoing the pills and. And yet then she redoes it and there's that obsession popping into her head. That image of this is not this medication, this is actually poison. And all right, I gotta start all over because if I don't and this is poison and I'm not 100% sure about it and I send it out, somebody could die. That would be my fault. I'll go to jail. The rest of my life will be the pariah pharmacist who's in the newspapers of killing people by poisoning them. And you know, you can, you can take all of that from that one scene that. That's where it's going to go with ocd, is there?
- [20:27]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [20:31]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Let's watch the next clip. Sam, It.
- [21:38]
Sandra (Character in the film)
I should push her. Push her old bones snap like that. Stop it. What is wrong with you? Why did you just think that? Why would you have that thought? Did I like it?
- [21:46]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Why?
- [21:48]
Sam Sapawi
I have a vaccine appointment.
- [21:50]
Sandra (Character in the film)
Am I a bad person? I guess I can't be certain
- [22:00]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
that that. Am I a bad person? I can't be certain. Right. I think that's a really powerful line there. Tell us about your thoughts around that. That line.
- [22:11]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, well, I think what we, we didn't show is one of the key scenes in this film where she has a conversation with Dr. Patrick
- [22:20]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
to not be self serving. We'll let people watch the film and they can See that one? Yeah.
- [22:25]
Sam Sapawi
The best parts for folks to discover on their own. You know, she has a therapy session where Dr. McGrath here, who was in the film, had some nuggets to share about what OCD really is, and that it's about tolerating the discomfort. Right. And essentially not, you know, seeking that certainty. And you start to watch Sandra over the film, you know, go from her initial compulsions with the medication filling, just completely giving into those compulsions that her OCD is demanding from her, and start to question those gaps in between the thoughts and the compulsions. And, you know, she. She's taking little steps and. And this is one of them in the film where she starts to. To say, well, I can't be certain if I'm a bad person, I guess.
- [23:32]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
And I don't know that any of us knows 100% if we're a good or a bad person or what. What the definition of a good or a bad person necessarily is to an absolute that everybody would accept. Right. I mean, there's. There's so many different ways to potentially look at that. And OCD will want to know all of the answers, all of the reasons, weigh all of the possibilities, and then come down as kind of the final judge and arbiter of this experience on you and. And give you a final grade of are, did you pass or not pass as being a good person? Right. I mean, it just. Which sounds overwhelming to those who don't have ocd. And guess what? It is overwhelming for those who do have ocd. Right. That's. That's just. That's just the life of OCD in some ways.
- [24:30]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. Yeah. You know, and. And this is sort of a kind of a demonstration in this scene of, like, how intrusive thoughts really work.
- [24:43]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [24:43]
Sam Sapawi
Right. They. A woman literally just walks through the door, and immediately her. Her brain goes to, like, I could push. I could push her. Yeah. And what would usually be an irrelevant thought that, you know, your brain's going to test you in every situation. That's what brains do. Yeah. You know, this then becomes an internal rumination that she has. You know, one thought leads to another, and suddenly you're spiraling into something completely unrelated. Right. Instead of her just thinking, be careful, the floor is wet, her brain has to catastrophize and then punish her for it.
- [25:20]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right.
- [25:22]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah.
- [25:24]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
On my end, treating OCD for 26 years now, I tell people all the time that I've absorbed pretty much every intrusive thought or image or urge that I've treated. So, Sam, if You and I were on the top of a staircase together. I would think about pushing you down the stairs, just so you know. But I also am not afraid of that thought because I have no desire to follow through on it, nor do I believe that my thoughts about that make an action have to follow through on it.
- [26:03]
Sam Sapawi
I feel like I may have taken a staircase with you before.
- [26:05]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
We have, actually. Yeah, we have. So now. Now we'll both. Next time we're on the stairs. Yes. We'll both think about pushing each other down the stairs next time. We'll both be like, no, you go first. No, you go first.
- [26:20]
Sam Sapawi
You go first. Go ahead.
- [26:21]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes, and I wonder if you'd be willing to speak to this, sometimes people without OCD just want to say, well, just stop thinking that. And I hope that this film helps people recognize that this is not a volitional thought that someone has. It's not like someone is. You know, wouldn't it be interesting to today to think about snapping old people's bones when they walk into the store? That it's not that this is a wanted thing, and therefore to tell someone just to stop thinking it is. Is actually quite insensitive to. To what's actually happening in the brain of someone. I wonder if you could speak to that.
- [27:17]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, I mean, it's not. It's like, don't think of a pink elephant. Right. Like, you just. I can't not think of a pink elephant now. Oh, come on.
- [27:24]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
I always have one right there, by the way. It's literally sitting on my desk at all times. No, we did not.
- [27:35]
Sam Sapawi
You know, it's. It's. You can't tell someone to stop thinking of something, even someone not living with ocd. Right. You can't tell someone to stop feeling a feeling, you know? Well, you can, but you can't just stop experiencing an experience that's happening to you and someone with ocd, trust me, they've already tried to stop. And that has only led them further down the path of this cycle of intrusive thoughts and then feelings and then stopping and then compulsion. You know, it's.
- [28:12]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
It.
- [28:13]
Sam Sapawi
They've tried. And so it's an. It's an insult, right? It's an insult when you say that because it's suggesting they wanted to be in this position and are choosing to continue to be in this position.
- [28:23]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah. I don't know anyone with OCD that chooses to have these thoughts. Right?
- [28:30]
Sam Sapawi
No, they choose to have ocd. Period.
- [28:33]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, Right. Period. There's a final scene I Want to watch? And Cynthia will pull that up for us, and then we could chat about that a little bit. It. Doesn't matter anymore.
- [28:54]
Sandra (Character in the film)
Time for her back. Great.
- [29:03]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Why don't you help me this time?
- [29:11]
Sandra (Character in the film)
She savior with you.
- [29:15]
Sam Sapawi
You're killing me. You've never given her a bath.
- [29:22]
Sandra (Character in the film)
I don't know what I'm capable of doing, Thomas. I don't. I don't know what. What I'll do to her.
- [29:31]
Sam Sapawi
You've never held her.
- [29:34]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Sorry. I'm sorry.
- [29:37]
Sam Sapawi
Hold your baby. No, don't. Please.
- [29:39]
Sandra (Character in the film)
Please. I don't understand.
- [29:41]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
I don't either. I'm sorry.
- [29:50]
Sam Sapawi
I'm sorry.
- [29:53]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Sam. That scene is so important because. Well, a few things. Number one, people think when a baby comes into your life that it's. If there's a problem, it's only postpartum depression. But there is the whole perinatal experience from the moment of conception all the way through having the baby. And post having the baby, that OCD can also appear. Because OCD can be triggered by a stressor, and having a baby is a stressor. And not only a hormonal potential stressor, but just a stressor in and of itself, which is why we've even seen the non birth parent also having OCD in this situation can happen. Or adoptive parents or foster parents can. OCD can be triggered by this experience, too. But this idea of, what if I were to harm my child. Most people, I think, just automatically go to postpartum psychosis or depression and don't realize that this is also an OCD experience. So I'm really thrilled that you portrayed this so people could truly understand where OCD can go.
- [31:05]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah, you know, it's. We chose this intrusion, this intrusive thought, this backstory for Sandra for a reason. You know, it was intentional. It is definitely something that is misrepresented and underrepresented, period. The postpartum experience in a myriad of ways, across even, you know, film and television, but even in clinician offices.
- [31:39]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
So we have here. I mean, these are things that happen to parents, right? This is something that occurs, but it isn't talked about because of the shame or the guilt that many people experience. But. And for myself, I've treated this. There was one case, and I could talk about more explicitly because we wrote an article about it. The mom was very open and signed off releases to us to do that and everything, but she did not touch her child for the first six months of her child's life. Not. Not even a hand, a finger, to let the child grasp it. Right. Because of that fear of what if I harm my child? So if anyone was watching that and think, well, that doesn't happen, it does. And I've treated it. That is a real event experience there that people have.
- [32:31]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. It is so common. And, you know, it's easy to look at a character like Sandra's, for example, and say, like, I can't believe you're not giving your baby a bathroom. I can't believe you're not holding your baby. How selfish. Right. And not really know what's going on under the surface because it's not being talked about because of the shame.
- [32:54]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right.
- [32:55]
Sam Sapawi
If Sandra's character, you know, wasn't able to vocalize that because of shame, she would just look like she didn't care.
- [33:05]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [33:06]
Sam Sapawi
Enough to hold the baby.
- [33:07]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right, Right.
- [33:07]
Sam Sapawi
She only cares about what she feels and what she's thinking. But the truth is, you can see it in her eyes, in Rachel's eyes, the actress,
- [33:18]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
how
- [33:20]
Sam Sapawi
terrorized she is of herself, all with the hope of protecting that baby.
- [33:28]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [33:29]
Sam Sapawi
And at the end of that scene, you hear her say, I want to. I want. I want to hold. I want to hold the baby. It's so genuine and it's so moving because against all of the fears that are playing on in her head, she can say, but I want to. And that's the seed that you need to overcome. OCD is you just need to want to.
- [33:56]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [33:57]
Sam Sapawi
You know, and. And then the ERP and the acceptance of the uncertainty and, you know, you can begin to sort of like, have the courage to then tolerate the discomfort.
- [34:15]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right. Because I think that that's what we see in the film, that flashback is to pre treatment. Right. And look at what happens without therapy, without doing exposure and response prevention therapy. You give in to the ocd. You do the compulsions, you take the safety behaviors, you go for the quick f. You don't learn that. You don't have to trust everything that pops into your head. And then by doing the ERP and we won't give away the end of the film, it's exciting for people, but by doing the ERP something changes at the end. And Sandra has a very different type of experience in. In her life, which is really awesome. I. I also really liked, even on the phone. Right. That there were messages that appeared to be popping up that were in her. In her head. You know, these. These what? I've always said that OCD is kind of a what if disorder. And. And it's always what if. And then the worst case scenario, no one Has OCD about a best case scenario. You know, it's not. I've never treated someone for. What if everyone loves me and thinks I'm great? You know, that's. That's never been. That's never been a therapy session that.
- [35:20]
Sam Sapawi
I wouldn't come in if I had that.
- [35:22]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
No, no, no, I don't think that you would. Right. So I also appreciate that, you know, you. You showed people all of the different what ifs that are just constantly being bombarded into the head of these worst case scenarios that. That folks with OCD are experiencing.
- [35:40]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. And we wanted to make sure that people really understood that that's not a hallucination. Right, right. Like, it's not, you know, she's not hallucinating. These situations, these are things that they're. It's just a way for us to. To kind of give people a taste of like, what's inside of her head without her having to describe it. So it disappears immediately and then she's kind of snaps back to reality there.
- [36:01]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, yeah, it's great. So the, the film has done well. It's won some awards. Could you tell us, like, what it was like? Just for those who don't know, taking something like this and packaging it and getting it out there to film festivals and everything. What. What's that process like?
- [36:18]
Sam Sapawi
Well, we produced the film, I want to say it was back in 2023.
- [36:23]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, it was a while ago that we felt.
- [36:27]
Sam Sapawi
And then, you know, through the post, that takes. That takes some sweet time. And, you know, I want to say it was like a year and a half later, it was in film festivals. We went through the film festival circuit. You know, one that was really exciting for us was the Cleveland International Film Festival, where we got to screen it in this beautiful, grand, historic theater. And, you know, just to get to just, I think, you know, when you're in something for so long and you're watching cuts over and over again and you stop watching it through the eyes of an audience member and through sort of. You look at it through a technical lens. But when you just sit next to your audience and consume your film in a way that they're seeing it, seeing it the way that they're looking at it, seeing their reactions, kind of hearing sort of their gasps in the audience and stuff like that, it's quite a visceral experience. But we had the opportunity to show the film and got some audience questions afterwards. And that was really special because I had some folks come up to me after the film and talk to me about their own family members living with OCD and how the film really struck them in a different way, or they had no idea that OCD presented this way. We won some awards, the Independent Shorts Awards, Chicago Feedback Festival. What else? If you go on YouTube, there's.
- [37:58]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah, you can see them all there.
- [38:00]
Sam Sapawi
You can see the laurels. I don't have them all memorized. But we've gotten the recognition for the film. And ultimately all that is in service of getting the film more eyeballs because we need to change the narrative around obsessive compulsive disorder. It's really frustrating how long it's taken, but we're starting to see the needle move in the way that OCD is portrayed in media. There's a long way to go.
- [38:32]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right.
- [38:33]
Sam Sapawi
But you know, this short film was hopefully a small.
- [38:36]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah. Because even back in Covid. I remember watching the news one night and they were outside in one of the newscasters backyards, appropriately socially distanced from each other. And one newscaster said to another, wouldn't it be great if we all just had a little OCD right now? And I just wanted to throw a brick at the tv. I was like, ah. Or, or the other day I was, I was going through an airport on a flight home and someone had a T shirt on and it said ocd. And I was like all excited and I started walking toward them and I was going to say, oh. And then I, I saw that underneath it said obsessive camping disorder. And I thought, no, never mind. You know, I just.
- [39:22]
Sam Sapawi
Obsessive Christmas Dec. Yeah, I've seen them all. It's, it's really, it's really unfortunate.
- [39:31]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Yeah.
- [39:31]
Sam Sapawi
Because nobody, nobody celebrates having ocd.
- [39:34]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
No, no, not, not, not. You know, and, and we, I don't know of any other condition we use like, we use OCD in our day to day vernacular. Right. Yeah.
- [39:47]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. I mean, I, I think of maybe folks using ADHD loosely. You know, there's some. I think it's on. It's, it's, it's something that like, I, I really, really hope people can be more conscious with their words. Yeah. Is what might seem like a passing remark to you, you know, to someone else means the world.
- [40:10]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Right.
- [40:11]
Sam Sapawi
And, and just acknowledging that, especially with OCD in the way, it's just being flippantly thrown around. I could name some reality shows and reality stars and I won't.
- [40:26]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
We've, we've done other podcasts on them, just so you know. So before we go, Sam, where can people see the film and give us Some final words that you have just about, you know, for those struggling with ocd, what you hope they get out of watching it.
- [40:44]
Sam Sapawi
Yeah. Well, you can watch the film on Healthline's YouTube channel or on Healthline.com and, you know, hope you guys get to enjoy watching this film and spreading the word, just because, you know, truthfully, it's word of mouth. That's the only way to change the narrative here. And. And, you know, just making sure that this film gets out into the world is.
- [41:06]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Is.
- [41:07]
Sam Sapawi
Is a part that everyone can play, you know, and in terms of those struggling with ocd, you know, first, I just want to say your experience is treatable. Dr. McGrath in the film tells Sandra, you know, the goal is you can learn to handle the discomfort. And that's what ERP does. And so, you know, it's. It's about living with uncertainty. And, you know, there are steps that. That you can take to find treatment with no cd. And then second, you're not your thoughts. You know, Sandra asks herself in the film, normal pharmacists don't think about killing their patients, but a lot of people have weird and disturbing thoughts. And so the difference with OCD is that your brain won't let them go. And the content is. Is just noise. It doesn't define you. And then I think lastly, you know, recovery just means accepting you'll never have certainty and, you know, just choosing to live your life anyway. And I won't ruin the ending, but Sandra finds. Finds her way in that story. Yeah, she finds a way to find her joy.
- [42:25]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
Well, Sam, thank you for the work you've done and coming here today to talk about the film. Everyone, check it out. It is called For All I Know, and I'm happy to have been a small part of it because it's. It's a great piece of work, and I'm honored to have been able to work with you on it. So thank you for that, Sam.
- [42:49]
Sam Sapawi
And if. If you don't go for the film, go for the doctor in the film.
- [42:53]
Dr. Patrick McGrath
There we go. Yes. Get your popcorn out, everyone. It's gripping. Gripping, for sure. All right, everyone, thank you for watching once again, the get to Know OCD podcast. If you're looking for help for OCD related conditions, check us out@nocd.com and if you like the get to Know OCD podcast, well, you can subscribe to the NOCD YouTube channel. And if you want to watch the amazing film, for all I know, you can go to Healthline's YouTube channel and see it there we'll see you again soon. And just remember, be better to yourself than your OCD ever would be. Thanks, everyone.