Grown Woman

Summary

Gettin' Grown – "Grown Woman" (March 27, 2026)

Podcast: Gettin’ Grown (Loud Speakers Network)
Hosts: Jade and Dr. Kia (with guest Dr. Chris Marsh)
Episode Theme: Celebrating nine years of Black womanhood, adulthood, and the expansive realities of love, relationships, and community—featuring a deep-dive Kitchen Table Talk on Dr. Chris Marsh’s work around singlehood in the Black middle class.

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Episode Overview

The episode marks a major milestone—nine years of Gettin’ Grown. Jade and Kia open with celebration but quickly pivot to reflect on what it means to reach such a milestone in tumultuous times. The main segment is a Kitchen Table Talk with Dr. Chris Marsh, sociologist and author of The Love Jones Cohort: Single and Living Alone in the Black Middle Class. The discussion reframes singlehood within Black communities, especially for women, tackling the stigma, exploring alternatives to traditional family structures, and emphasizing agency, autonomy, and the richness of non-romantic love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nine Years of Gettin’ Grown: Community, Transparency, and Authenticity

[03:00–10:00]

• Jade and Kia express gratitude to their listeners, emphasizing the strong, intentional support they've received over nine years.
• The hosts reflect on how their podcast space is “co-created” with listeners:

  “Y’all create this vibe... This has been the special sauce for Gettin’ Grown.” —Ebony [08:02]

• Authenticity and honesty are celebrated as forms of community care and survival, especially in a world that often feels unsafe for Black women.

Memorable Moment:

“We just show up in honest and authenticity in the real of the ghettos of adulthood—we don’t know what we’re doing, but we’re figuring it out together.” —Jade [08:44]

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2. The World on Fire: Finding Safety and Meaning

[10:00–15:30]

• The hosts discuss personal anxieties amid global chaos (current events like Project 2025 and airport/ICE disruptions are mentioned).
• Creating and sustaining a “safe corner” for Black women’s voices—especially during “these last and evil days.”
• Acknowledgment of mutual aid efforts and appreciation for listeners’ community support.

Notable Quote:

“I’m grateful that we’ve been able to carve out a corner for ourselves that feels safe and honors our authenticity, however it shows up—in joy, in grief, in confusion and awareness.” —Ebony [09:27]

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3. Honoring Rest, Self-Care, and Community Check-in

[15:45–24:00]

• Both hosts highlight the need for real self-care and rest, not performative productivity.
• Themes of prayer, spirituality, and the “unlearning” of rigid religious rituals in exchange for authentic, direct conversation with God.
• Celebrating habits picked up from older generations (“sometimes I just sit in the car and be like, whoo, hallelujah” [18:44]).

Notable Quote:

“Sometimes I have to just talk to God like, look, I need you to keep it real with me because, honestly, I’ve been feeling nuts for a while.” —Jade [20:25]

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4. Women’s History Month & Revisiting Womanhood (“Love Jones Cohort” Rewind)

[24:00–28:40]

• The episode is framed as a celebration not by “pushing through,” but by taking a pause and honoring the journey.
• In honor of Women’s History Month and Black Women’s History Month, the hosts rebroadcast a pivotal Kitchen Table episode with Dr. Chris Marsh, highlighting womanhood’s expansive possibilities and agency.
• Emphasis on the importance of revisiting old conversations with fresh perspectives.

“Our theme for Women’s History Month has been about expanding our understanding...ways that allow for variance and dimension and depth.” —Ebony [25:20]

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Kitchen Table Talk: Dr. Chris Marsh on "The Love Jones Cohort"

[31:43–79:00]

Introduction to Dr. Chris Marsh

[31:43–35:16]

• Dr. Marsh is a sociologist/demographer at the University of Maryland, tenured as the first Black female demographer.
• Passionate about studying the Black middle class, not out of elitism, but to challenge narratives that only focus on Black poverty or pathology.
• The term “Love Jones Cohort” is a nod to the film and describes middle-class Black professionals who are single and living alone.

“If we’re going to understand all of Black America, I’m going to study the Black middle class.” —Dr. Marsh [35:11]

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Destigmatizing Singlehood

[38:52–45:54]

• Dr. Marsh’s aim: To create nuance about Black singlehood and provide agency for those who choose it or find themselves in it.
• Critique of societal pressure on Black women to validate singleness but never require married people to justify marriage.
• Pushback on oppressive frameworks that stigmatize being single:

  “I want to destigmatize singlehood…if there’s one person who opts out of an oppressive, unfulfilling and toxic relationship after reading [the book], my work is done.” —Dr. Marsh [43:40]

• Discussion of “value-add” relationships: seeking partnership out of genuine desire, not need:

“Needs have an expiration…Once that expiration comes, you no longer need that person. I want to be wanted, not needed.” —Dr. Marsh [46:59]

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Broadening Definitions of Love & Family

[47:18–52:03]

• Argument for embracing non-romantic sources of love (friendship, sister circles, chosen family).
• Stresses that Black women often have deeply nurturing relationships with other women; Black men often lack such non-romantic intimacy.
• Dr. Marsh advocates for “augmented families” and “family of one” models, given legal/financial systems discriminate against singles.
• Singles’ contributions to extended families (caregiving, financial support) are often invisible.

“Why can’t we be a family of one? … I want to come back to that… The other argument: why can’t we get together and be considered an augmented family?” —Dr. Marsh [52:12]

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The Intersections of Singleness and Structure: Race, Class, Gender

[55:54–66:59]

• Dr. Marsh argues that personal “choices” in singleness for Black women are highly constrained by structures—educational, economic, and historical.
• Suggests “singleism” ought to be considered alongside race, class, and gender as a source of marginalization.
• Singlehood is not the same as racism, but discrimination against singles is real and wide-ranging (from taxes to social exclusion).
• Reparations are named as one necessary societal shift:

  “How about you pay Black Americans reparations and see if that might change marriage rates.” —Dr. Marsh [65:12]

• Policing of Black women’s partner choices—and the persistence of standards that disadvantage Black women—are challenged explicitly.

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Navigating Stigma and Wealth

[68:27–72:31]

• Dr. Marsh’s research finds that everyone is seen as “stigmatized” in some way by singlehood (age, gender, etc.), but especially Black women.
• Discusses innovative strategies for singles regarding wealth transference (to godchildren, nieces/nephews, chosen family).
• Singles are often expected to shoulder more family caregiving duties, especially for aging parents.

“As single folks…our checkbook becomes the family checkbook.” —Dr. Marsh [70:57]

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Takeaways, Advice, and Reframing

[72:22–79:00]

• The book is academic but accessible—worth reading for singles and married people alike.
• Loneliness is recognized but shown to be situational, not chronic, for most “Love Jones Cohort” members.
• The episode ends with a call to embrace multiplicity in Black love, relationships, and selfhood—affirming autonomy and rejecting stigma.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The podcast space has become the wild, wild west… this has really been a gift and practice of diligence and consistency—showing up and letting what needed to be created, be created.” —Ebony [07:01]
• “The girls that get it, get it… What better way to celebrate nine years than by taking a minute?” —Jade [24:07]
• “Sometimes I’ll just start talking—I guess they’re prayers. I’ll be like, ‘We need to chat, cause what is happening outside?’” —Jade [19:28]
• “This is not about partner-bashing, marriage-bashing, men-bashing… It’s giving options, autonomy, agency.” —Dr. Kia [76:42]
• “Your Black will crack if it’s dry.” —Jade [80:25]

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Additional Highlights

• Spirits and humor run high throughout, with playful riffs on generational habits, “stinky mics” in podcasting, and the open embrace of neurodivergence and mental health.
• Listeners are invited to check out Dr. Marsh's book and revisit earlier Kitchen Table episodes, especially those centering Black women's relationships and self-determination.

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Final Thought

This episode embodies Gettin’ Grown’s ethos: celebrating Black womanhood—with all its joy, messiness, complexity, and powerful community ties—while championing authenticity, rest, collective care, and self-definition at every turn. It’s an essential listen for Black women navigating adulthood and for anyone seeking a rich, affirming discourse on love, family, and self-actualization.

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Listen for:

• Deep insights on singlehood in Black America
• Affirming, laughter-filled reflections on adulthood
• Honest takes on navigating celebration in hard times
• The unapologetic embrace of individual and communal growth

Referenced Book:
The Love Jones Cohort: Single and Living Alone in the Black Middle Class by Dr. Chris Marsh

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Kitchen Table segment with Dr. Marsh begins at [31:43].

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Our HBCUs have a legacy that's straight up golden. And McDonald's is proud to help keep it that way. Since 2021, the Golden Arches has connected with the Thurgood Marshall College fund to provide $1 million in scholarships for students headed to our HBCUs. That kind of cash helps keep bright minds on the yard dreams within reach and the future golden. Learn more about McDonald's Black and Positively Golden Scholarships at mcdblackscholars.com.

[Jade]

I was spending all my nights and

[Ebony]

days laid back, daydreaming.

[Jade]

Look at me, I'm a big girl now. Said I'm gonna do something. Told the world I would pick this town now bet you I run this.

[Ebony]

I run this.

[Jade]

Cause I put it down like that.

[Ebony]

Down like that, down like that.

[Jade]

And I'm making all these rats.

[Ebony]

All these rats, all these. And I'm moving round like that. Round like that. When I do it, don't look back.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Don't look.

[Jade]

I'm a grown woman. I can do whatever I want.

[Ebony]

I could do whatever I want.

[Jade]

I'm a grown woman. Go ahead.

[Ebony]

I can do whatever I want.

[Jade]

She can do whatever she. Wow.

[Ebony]

You know where I want.

[Jade]

Okay, okay.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

All right.

[Jade]

Celebration. Celebration. It's a celebration.

[Ebony]

I love that song.

[Jade]

I do enjoy that. I feel like that is not as celebrated of a hit.

[Ebony]

Yes.

[Jade]

Now, granted, maybe it is in the echo chambers of the beehive. But you know that I don't choose to run to asylum.

[Ebony]

Be very careful.

[Jade]

Listen, I tread lightly. I'm like, y' all know I went to the concerts. Please get off my fucking back, okay? Your cult.

[Ebony]

Woo.

[Jade]

Praise the Lord, niggas.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Praise the Lord.

[Ebony]

Praise the Lord. And welcome back. Welcome, black to welcome all of you.

[Jade]

Another two of. Yes, nine solid full years.

[Ebony]

I mean, are you guys kidding? Like, whoa. We've been doing this show for nine years. Just what in the world does that even mean?

[Jade]

It means that we have a fourth grader.

[Ebony]

We do.

[Jade]

We have a fourth grader. We are learning. We're learning U.S. history.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

I believe.

[Jade]

I don't know.

[Ebony]

Long division.

[Jade]

Long division?

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yes.

[Jade]

You know, cursive, Fractions.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Fractions.

[Jade]

Do they.

[Ebony]

Do. Do they teach the children fractions?

[Jade]

Fractions Third grade, or is that fourth grade? I thought fractions was. Who knows? I don't. I'm acting like I remember anything. I don't remember a solitary thing about school. I remember one day. I remember the cursive. I remember one day, one of my classmates brought fufu and some kind of Nigerian soup. And I was like, yo, I ain't never had no shit like this in my. I don't. That is one of my.

[Ebony]

It's a core memory.

[Jade]

It is.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

It is.

[Jade]

I remember nothing, but I remember this nigga brought this soup for some kind of World Day situation. And I was like, yo, who did not bless me with the knowledge of Nigerian food? And that is a core memory from elementary school.

[Ebony]

I love that.

[Jade]

If I could kind of soup he brought. I don't know. It was fucking fantastic, though. But now I'm a grown woman. I can do whatever I want. And the world is on fire. How are you?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Oh, my God.

[Ebony]

It is burning down around us. I'm doing my best. I'm safe. I have what I need. I'm very grateful to be in the confines of my own home in this. This. These last and evil days, this world. I don't know what to make of it. But, you know, I'm grateful to be here at the kitchen table with all of you again. I'm grateful to be here with you, sis.

[Jade]

Yeah, same.

[Ebony]

Celebrating nine years. We're going to have a conversation really soon. Just where we sort of really.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Ebony]

Unpack, you know, this milestone in the middle of war. Yeah. What it's like to sort of reach a milestone during such precarious and uncertain times. Like, how do you find space for celebration when the world doesn't feel celebratory? How do we sort of. I mean, and being grateful and fully acknowledging of the opportunity and the gift and the blessing that it is to sort of all of us to be connected in this awesome way that we never would have anticipated.

[Jade]

Yeah. And, you know, just the support. The support that we get on a weekly basis for literally the last nine years, it does not fall on deaf ears. It's so heartwarming. I got a message from Jovian actually, the other day.

[Ebony]

Hey, Jovi.

[Jade]

Oh, love her so much. I love you so much.

[Ebony]

So much.

[Jade]

You want to talk about a light in a world of fucking smoke and fog. God, she's such a light. But Jovian Hit me just to say how much she was enjoying, like, in the middle of enjoying the episode that we had with our sister Shar. And, you know, it was just. It was really affirming knowing that, you know, your community is intentional about letting you know, like, I love the work that you're doing. And then it's even more of a, you know, a hug when it comes from somebody that, you know is also putting out incredible work into this world. And so it's just really affirming. And you all supporting us the way that you do over the past nine years, it's not lost on us. Yeah. How beautiful that is.

[Ebony]

It's such a amazing gift.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yeah.

[Ebony]

And one that we never, like, planned for or knew that we were going to sort of have this experience together. And, you know, the podcast space has become the wild, wild west in a lot of ways. Right. And so, like so many. So many. Exactly. So, so much of that has happened and just, you know, this has really been a gift and just an exercise of practice of, like, diligence and consistency and just allowing and committing to showing up and letting what needed to be created be created. The space, like we co construct this space together. And that was one of the beautiful things about our live shows that we were blessed to do last year. Like, every. Every space was co created by everyone in the room. And I think that is what has been the special sauce for getting grown.

[Jade]

Absolutely.

[Ebony]

Y' all create this vibe. Y' all like, it is. It is curated. And so in that vein, I acknowledge and appreciate every single listener. We know that there are thousands, millions, trillions of podcasts that are out there on the interwebs for us to listen to and engage with. So I don't at all minimize or discount what it means for you to show up whenever you show up and press, play and support what we're building and contribute to the conversation in all the ways that you do, all the ways that we celebrate each other, all the ways that we learn and sort of process together.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Ebony]

All the ways in which we just sort of just show up in honest and authenticity in the. In the real of the ghettos of adulthood that we don't know what we're doing, but we're figuring it out together.

[Jade]

That's been all the transparency and yeah,

[Ebony]

you know, it's such. It's not a small thing. So we don't take y' all for granted. And even though the world feels hard

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

and heavy, ominous and.

[Commercial Announcer]

And.

[Ebony]

And unsafe for us, particularly, I'm grateful that we've been Able to carve out a corner for ourselves.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Ebony]

That feels safe.

[Jade]

Yes, absolutely.

[Ebony]

And that honors our authenticity, however it shows up.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yeah.

[Ebony]

Enjoy. In grief.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Ebony]

In confusion and awareness.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

We are grateful and hyper vigilance.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yes.

[Jade]

You know, I have. My spirit has been simmering. It's been rolling, boiling for some years now in the last. You know, it's been simmering lately because I'm just so tired. I'm. So. I'm supposed to fly. So it's full transparency. As you all are listening to this. I'm supposed to fly out tomorrow to go work with my boys at the gym. And, guys, this is also the day after that plane crash at LaGuardia. And it is the day that they put in place what was already written in Project 2025. Let's be very clear about the advancement of this being a militarized fascist state and regime. So ICE is not at the airports being useless and using up tax money. And I'm just not excited about going to this airport tomorrow. I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna control my face. You all already know that my spirit is always a fucking firework. So, you know, But I wanna be as safe and as grounded as possible because clearly this shit is ramping up and it's not stopping anytime soon. So I want to find the best ways to be effective and also, you know, not be tied up in a whole bunch of shit, but make sure that I'm still taking my stance. You know what I mean?

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yeah.

[Jade]

And with that being said, I want to thank all of you who have donated towards these sweet babies and getting them home to their mother. Just a quick update for you all. She has been released. I don't know if. Did I say that already, sis?

[Ebony]

You said yeah, last week.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

For those who might not have heard,

[Jade]

I never can remember anything. So, yes, we're still working through a lot of logistics and paperwork because it doesn't just stop there. There is an environment that has to be safe for them to go to. So your donations are helping toward that and as well as getting them home. And so I'm really, really grateful for each and every one of you who show up for Kia and I in community in this way, in our extended community as well, so. But how are you feeling these days? You know, you're newly, freshly back with us, so let's check in.

[Ebony]

Yeah, I'm hanging in. I am appreciative of, again, all of the love I wanted to. I was remiss in not doing it last. Last week. But I mentioned that I was at south by Southwest Edu and I mean, literally, as soon as I got out of the Uber down to the hotel,

[Jade]

the love was, oh, I love it being shown. I love it.

[Ebony]

So many people stopped and, and gave love and sent love to uj, Send love to getting grown. It was really just again, affirming to. To be reminded that y' all are still out here rocking with us, y' all are still listening, still finding value in what we do. And we just are very appreciative. But thank you to everyone, all the girls who stopped for a picture, all the girls who stopped to say hello, everyone that sent love at south by Southwest. I know that I see you and I remember you, and I am appreciative. Love it when you guys come up and, and let me know who you are and that the show is a help to you. So, yes, grateful for that. I'm hanging into, you know, family stuff, still dealing with that, still working through this. It's just, you know, this is the thick of. The thick of it, right? All, all of the things that come with, with loss and all of that. And, you know, not to. Not. Not much unlike you. I was supposed. We. Jade and I were not even supposed to be able to record today because I was supposed to be. I was supposed to be in Atlanta to participate in the HBCU Aware Fest event. Just, just a collection of events and meetings and symposia all about the state of HBCUs, which is a critical conversation for this time. And just thinking about the future of. Of those institutions, our institutions, and just sort of like what, what our options are as it relates to post secondary options for us. And, you know, we don't want to take those spaces for granted. I was supposed to be there. I had planned to be there, but as you said, the airports have really become a place that did. Not that, that, that. I don't know, it just. It just. It felt like I needed to pause and sort of see how this was going to play out. I didn't want to fly in because Atlanta seems to be sort of the place where all of this is happening

[Jade]

at one time epicenter right now.

[Ebony]

It is.

[Jade]

It is absolutely to no fault of their own. Let's be clear,

[Ebony]

one of the largest hubs in the nation and they are bearing the brunt of this, this new way. And so on the first day, I just. I felt I wanted, when I got the green light from my deputy and my leadership at work to just, you know, I did not have to push through all of that, I was like,

[Jade]

say that I know your spirit just felt pure relief.

[Ebony]

I mean, it was. I was grateful.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yes.

[Ebony]

It was kind of like.

[Jade]

It was like, oh, yeah. In the best way. You're like, oh, that's what it was.

[Ebony]

Jesus. Is that what it was? Yes. Well, you think it's like, I don't know if this is appendicitis or I just got a boo boo real bad. Like, you know what I'm saying?

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

That's the kind of.

[Jade]

It just got caught there. I laid down too fast after I ate.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yeah.

[Jade]

But continued well.

[Ebony]

I was very grateful and you know, like, sending love and prayers and thoughts and support to everyone who was. Who still had to trust, travel and trudge through this. I was thinking about y' all all day. Please know that. And praying for you. And you know that I don't play when I say I'm praying. I am really talking to the Lord.

[Jade]

I know, I know.

[Ebony]

I honestly have been on. I've been in God's mentions non stop,

[Jade]

you know, same actually.

[Ebony]

I just. I just want to know because I also am just trying to get some understanding. Like, Lord, anytime you want to just give what is happening what exactly.

[Jade]

I sing songs I like.

[Ebony]

Yeah.

[Jade]

I just. I will start talking out of nowhere, you know, that's it. Lord, what I need from you is understanding.

[Ebony]

How can we communicate?

[Jade]

But I. How can we have you? I know it's so crazy earlier. So I was laughing at myself because I said, you know, I see why. Like, you know, when we were younger, the aunties around us and stuff would just get mumbling, spiritual talking all over and. Cause I was in the kitchen earlier and I was like, you know, spirit, grand creator and everybody in between who's got my back. Listen, I was like. I just, you know, y' all tell me, like, I need a clear message. You know what I'm saying? Like, no breadcrumbs. Like, I need you to like whole ass spill this shit in front of me, let me know what I'm supposed to we doing tomorrow. Because I'm feeling. I'm feeling vexed. I'm feeling vexed in myself. It is very real.

[Ebony]

It's very real. And I think about when I was a little girl, did I used to be in the bathroom, showering, shaving, sort of just getting his morning routine.

[Jade]

Sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Ebony]

Listen, all of that. I'm very sure.

[Jade]

I'm 11.

[Ebony]

Anyway, so like, you would hear him or. And you know, like me, like, you know, this is not new. When I tell Y', all, I got clothes in every closet in this house. I get from D. Because did. I used to have clothes in the closet in my room? And so sometimes when I would be sleeping, he would come in to get his things. Right? Isn't it?

[Jade]

But I love it.

[Ebony]

So I say all that to say, I used to be. I used to be a little girl. And I would hear D. Yes, Lord. Yes, Lord. Yes, Lord. Just I don't know who he was talking, yes, Lord. Yes, Lord. Now, the Lord was speaking to him, or was he like, yes, Lord. Yes, Lord.

[Jade]

We don't know the message, but we know he was hearing it. He was here.

[Ebony]

You know what I'm saying? But, like, I hear myself, and it's not. It is. So. It's not performative. It's not like I'm just doing it just because. But, like, authentically. Sometimes I come up the stairs, I'll sit in the seat, I'll go to transition from one thing to the next.

[Jade]

Whoo.

[Ebony]

Thank you, Jesus.

[Jade]

Right?

[Ebony]

You know, like, you know those things. I think about Keisha's mom sometimes. Like, keisha's mom.

[Jade]

I told you.

[Ebony]

Like, we would just be. She would come out of one room and go into the next, and you'd sit down at the table, just be like, hallelujah. Exactly that. Like, that's it. Sometimes I just sit in the car and be like, whoo. Hallelujah.

[Jade]

Yo, that lady is a blessing. She's one of the most amazing creatures. Y' all wanna. You know, should I tell this story? I don't know. Well, anyway, yes. Hallelujah.

[Ebony]

Yeah, I do all of that. I'm talking, but that's the thing. You find yourself doing stuff that you used to catch your mom doing, or you would see your mother or your. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, I didn't know to do this. I didn't try to do this, but just comes out naturally. Organically.

[Jade]

Organically. And listen, I'll be talking, too. Like, I will start some of these, I guess, their prayers. I guess that's what you. I'd be like, all right, so listen, we need to chat. Because what is happening outside and what is going on?

[Ebony]

And I'm learning in my unlearning. Right. I think that so much of just breaking down the things that are sort of routines and rituals and, like, religious practice versus, like, functions of actual relationship.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Ebony]

Like the formality. We don't have no formality, me and you. Because we have a connection.

[Jade]

Right, right. Exactly.

[Ebony]

So sometimes I could Call you and say, hey, sis. Other times I could call you and be like, yeah.

[Jade]

And I'll be like, oh, what's happening?

[Ebony]

Exactly. So I don't think that it is too much different with God.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

No.

[Ebony]

Sometimes it's like, you know what, Lord? Like, and sometimes it's like, you know what?

[Jade]

Like. Like, I need you to keep it real with me because.

[Ebony]

Hello. Do you. Hello?

[Jade]

Honestly, like, I've been feeling nuts for a while, but since October 27, 2023. God. Yeah. You know, shit is real confusing. So it is just getting worse. Can you tell me. But that familiarity is a form of safety, right. And relationship. Today I called Kia. She's supposed to be in Atlanta. Or. No, Kia called me. She's supposed to be in Atlanta. I'm in the throes of, I don't know, some. The crabby meme. You know what I'm saying? It's like everything's spinning around me. So I just. Everything we just got.

[Ebony]

We ended. We in the to do list.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Yeah.

[Jade]

We ended up running down blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And bullet point, bullet point, bullet point.

[Ebony]

And I did this.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yes.

[Ebony]

And last time we talked, and I

[Jade]

said, yo, you're not in Atlanta.

[Ebony]

Exactly. And we was about 14 minutes into the conversation, and I said. I said, yeah, girl, I was just waiting for you to catch up. I know you had to run through your list. We had to get there.

[Jade]

You know what I'm saying? I am neurodivergent. And so.

[Ebony]

No, but that's just, like. Because we don't have to have formalities. So I don't have to call you and say, oh, Jade, sister of mine for 12 years. I don't have to say that.

[Jade]

Can you imagine?

[Ebony]

Could you imagine? Oh, Jade, I'm like, what the wrong.

[Jade]

Are you dying?

[Ebony]

It's like, exactly. Oh, Jay, friend of the last 20 years.

[Jade]

What's going on,

[Ebony]

ma'?

[Jade]

Am?

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Are you.

[Ebony]

Well, what.

[Jade]

What is wrong with you? Exactly.

[Ebony]

So I would imagine that God also be like, girl, shut up and get to it.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Right?

[Ebony]

What is it?

[Jade]

I don't have time every time to be like my heavenly creator, Lord King of Kings.

[Ebony]

And sometimes I be in that space like, you know what?

[Jade]

You be God, okay?

[Ebony]

And ain't nobody do it like you.

[Jade]

Like, sometimes I got to get Big G. Not the little one. I need to check. Exactly.

[Ebony]

And you did that.

[Jade]

And you did.

[Ebony]

You did. But sometimes it's not even. It don't take all of that. You know what I'm saying? It don't take all of that. And I Think it's the same way, I think. But that is. That is a function of having authentic relationship and deep connection. And I think that's really what God wants. I don't think he wants us to be. I think so. I said, I think so.

[Jade]

I think that makes sense, because, you know, it's like, damn, how long you known me? And, you know, exactly. I talked to God. I talked to my ancestors. I talked to my guides, my ancestors. I know them. First of all, I'm too honest, because some of them, the great grandfather, he was an unsavory human being. I. Every time I address him, though, to acknowledge that he's there, I'm like, and, you know, I don't really fool with you, but I know you there, so I'm gonna acknowledge you. And I tell him that straight up. So. So here we are. But we fooled you all. It's not a new episode. It's just a new intro.

[Ebony]

Speaking of authenticity, let's just talk about it, okay? And so we. We're gonna have the conversation that needs to be had, but we. We wanted to. To do something in acknowledgment of this milestone show.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yeah.

[Ebony]

But the reality is Jay's traveling. I'm. You know, we're working through some things, and so scheduling did not.

[Jade]

Like a slaughtered goat. Not hello, Exactly. Okay.

[Ebony]

Kind of same. And so last week was not the week for us to get together and do what we needed to do as far as recording was concerned. And again, Jade and I connected yesterday and was like, we don't got to fake it.

[Jade]

No, the girls.

[Ebony]

Because the girls that get it, get it.

[Jade]

And that is literally the reason and the season for this show. And what better way to fucking celebrate nine years of you being consistent and building community and through authenticity, you know what I'm saying? And full transparency and organic conversation than to be like, yo, the way we're celebrating ourselves is by taking a fucking minute. So we did want to come and, like Kia said, acknowledge this milestone that we've hit. We'll acknowledge it on a deeper level. We do want you all to listen to the Kitchen Table, because I believe maybe it's been included in a gumball episode, but I know how that can go with listens. In honor of Women's History Month, in honor of this beautiful platform, in honor of my sister and I and our journey through womanhood, and also just shining a light on one of the many of amazing guests that we've had over time. We wanted to bring back the Love Jones and Living Single episode because it's such an appropriate conversation during Women's History Month. Black Women's History Month.

[Ebony]

And it's continuing to expand.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Right.

[Ebony]

I think our theme for Women's History Month has been about expanding our understanding and definition and speaking about our experience of womanhood in ways that allow for variance and dimension and depth. And so this is an opportunity for us to revisit what that looks like relationally with Dr. Chris Marsh, who is a brilliant sociologist who was just walking through the experience of women in relationship and our agency and our choice around that. Because one thing I will say is women are not having the loneliness epidemic.

[Jade]

Hello. Okay, first of all, like, because I know y' all be seeing them cut articles, would it be like, women are quietly divorcing their husbands? I was like, first of all, this is not new. Second of all, it's not quiet. These are not quite sick of these, and justifiably so. But I love. I love that we are. They are free. They are over it. Okay, I see why they are reclaiming their time. Never decided to get remarried after a divorce and. Or death because they said, you know, I loved you. I loved you a long time, and now I'm gonna love me.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

There's a freedom.

[Ebony]

There's a freedom that is happening here, and I think we're celebrating that. That liberation in all of its forms. And that's not to say that freedom looks the same for everyone. Right? So there's some for whom meaningful relationship is liberating, and then there's some for whom like, whole wholeness and solitude and. And, you know, singular sort of focus on oneself and one's happiness. And. And those two. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Like, it's also about sort of how are you sort of cultivating that wholeness in yourself, even in relationship to others, and why that's actually the ideal situation. So the conversation with us, we would love to see how it's landing with you now. I'm gonna listen to it as well and see how it's landed with me. If there are other things, other aspects of the conversation that feel more salient now or are resonating with me in a different way. So let's revisit.

[Jade]

Yeah, let's do a real. A real rewind. And I think we should come back also and, like, you know, discuss our thoughts on our thoughts.

[Ebony]

I would love that.

[Jade]

You know, I would love that. And we're gonna bring some new, fresh things for you all in this year nine, as we are approaching year this. Oh, my God.

[Ebony]

Oh, my God.

[Jade]

Double digit, you know, and also what a feat, right? Cause like you said, in a world of so many hot stinky mics.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Stinky mics.

[Jade]

I don't know of hot funky breath mics because I know half these don't brush their tongues. I can see it on your YouTube channel.

[Ebony]

There's no scraping. There's no scraping happening. The girls are not scraping that tongue.

[Jade]

They're not scraping the tongue. They're not brushing the roof of their mouth. They not hitting them lips. And when we say the girls, that is gender nonspecific. Okay. It's inclusive of all because you need to brushing the Correct, correct, correct. But I do love also that we, you know, we have, we, we're able to address maybe where our thinking has changed. I love that we're able to have these honest, I love that we have these expansive conversations with these incredible guests. I think this is a great reprise on the heels of our conversation with Char, you know, and, and also more expansive ways of looking at womanhood and also us as black women and what that looks like as a community. Like a true, true and tried community. And so I do love these conversations. I love this space. I love the real life growth of it. And we're really grateful for you all and we're going to come back and talk about more. So yes, enjoy this kitchen table with Dr. Krishmash and we'll see you all next week with a brand new episode and a brand new guest.

[Ebony]

Love y' all long time.

[Jade]

Is that racist? Nah, I wasn't saying it like that.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Okay,

[Ebony]

bye.

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[Jade]

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[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

hey everybody. Welcome back to getting grown. We are. Well, I will speak for myself. I know that you will agree though, sis.

[Jade]

Yes, I do.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I am very, very excited about today's conversation because our guest is a person who is very near and dear to my heart. She served on my dissertation committee. And I remember, I don't know if she remembers, but I remember going to her office and asking her to be a part of my committee. And I was very scared because I was like, this lady don't know me from Adam, but she don't know anything about me. And here I am asking her to do some more work. But I heard about her work. I've been following her for many, many years because I felt like her research represented me and my experience in a lot of ways. And so I've always really appreciated her perspective and the voice that she asked to the discourse. And she without hesitation agreed to be a part of my dissertation committee. And so I'm very excited to share this special person with you all. So everybody please welcome to the kitchen table none other than Dr. Chris Marsh. Dr. Marsh is a brilliant woman who studies sociology and has done a lot of work around class and more recently, relationship status in class and what that means for black people, Black women more specifically. And I've just always appreciated her insight. I feel, you know, I just feel very much. I'm inspired by her. And so I'm excited to have her here. She has some exciting things to share, a new book coming out. So I wanted to make sure that we welcome her to the kitchen table to talk about all the great work that she's doing.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

So.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Hello, Dr. Marsh. How are you?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

I am fantastic, Dr. Robinson, I'm so happy to be able to call you that. I was like, oh, gosh, I really hope That I was on my best behavior. When you came to my office, I was like, oh, I don't remember. Thank God. I was. But it's such a pleasure to call you Dr. Robinson. So I know this is kind of a more casual conversation, but please allow me to call you Dr. Robinson. I saw it happen, and it still just warms my heart every time I say

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I do. Yes, it was a good time.

[Jade]

Hold on. I'm about to look through these pictures because I'm about to see if I can find you. Dr. Chris, in my. While I was back there snapping photos and doing.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Jade was at the defense. Do you remember? Jade was at the defense as well. But while Jade is looking for her pictures. Catch us up. Tell us, tell us. You know, I gave my introduction through my personal lens, but tell the people who you are and what you study.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Okay, so I am a sociologist and a demographer. I've been at the University of Maryland since 08. I was tenured in 2014 and hopefully I'll be a full professor soon. I was the first black female demographer that was tenured at the University of Maryland. And I do plan to be the first black female demographer that goes from assistant to associate to full. And hopefully the Love Jones book is going to take me there. Not because I need the title, but because I want other little black and brown girls to know that they can do it.

[Jade]

Hell yeah, speak it.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Let me. But let me tell you. So my research over the last couple of years have been trying to understand avenues into the black middle class and the consequence of being in the black middle class. And I want to pause for a second and explain why I studied the black middle class. Because some people will be like, oh, Dr. Marsh is just the elitist. No, not at all. Here's what I decided early on in my academic career. I was not going to pimp the poor to make my academic career. You have scholars that don't look like me that talk about black people and talk about black poor people and talk about, quote, unquote, the debauchery in the ghetto. And black black folks have high unemployment rates, high single parent rate. I was like, listen, if we're going to understand all of black America, I'm going to study the black middle class. And I think it's really good to study the black middle class because you look to people who have, quote, unquote, done everything right. They got the degrees, they got the six and seven figure salaries, they got the big houses, but their outcomes still don't look the same. As other racial groups. That's when you go, really? That's. You can no longer deny that racism exists. When you compare to all white America, you can easily say, those people, the poor black people, need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. But what about the people who did all the things right and their outcomes aren't the same? So that's why I really emphatic about studying the black middle class. I have a new book that's coming out. As a demographer, I'm gonna give you the title in a second, but I gotta, like, you know, look up to that. So one of the things that we know in the demographic literature is that marriage rates were changing for all racial and ethnic groups, but it was way more pronounced for black America. So I, as a sociologist, besides just looking at the black middle class, I wanted to look at people who were single and l. Alone in the black middle class. So I have a book that just dropped last week. The name of the book is the Love Jones Cohort. Single and Living Alone in the Black Middle Class. If I can have just a moment to tell you where the title came

[Jade]

from, please, because, you know, that was about to be.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

My question was so excited about the title too. I have some colleagues that don't look like us that will call me and be like, I'm so intrigued by your book. The title might go buy the book and find out why it's called the Love Jones Cohort. For people that look like us, they're. They see the book and they're like, it's a nod to them. They're like, oh, what's. I see, Dr. Marc, what you got to do right there. So I'm like, really happy that I settled on the Love Jones Cohort. But part of the reason why I said it all settled on that title is because if we think of the quintessential black middle class family or even upper middle class family, we often default to the Huxtables. In the Cosby show, you have adult. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[Jade]

Oh, you do say open. My bad.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

When you think about the quintessential black middle class family, you automatically default to them. Professionals, couple kids and a black picket fence. Paying. Paying respect to Mary Patillo, who does work on the black middle class. She had a book called Black Picket Fence. But we started to see a character shift in the movie Love Jones where you had young professionals who weren't married and didn't have any children. People often think the book is based on the storyline in Love Jones. No, it's basically just the characters in the Love Jones. And the cohort is a traditional demographic term. So I, I, as a scholar, I want to make sure my work is accessible. I believe the book is written for a commercial audience, but a lay audience. But some people have said not necessarily so. But the point is, is that I want my friends and people who didn't necessarily have access to higher education to be able to use terms like cohort now and know what it means. So that's why I called it the Love Jones Cohort. Single and living loan in the black middle class.

[Ebony]

So important.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

So important. Because I think, especially in this, if I could, especially in our current context. Right. I think earlier this morning I was watching a news clip. Some wretched congressperson, white male congressperson, who is sort of talking about how dangerous the world has become because it has been left, is being led by single, either single people or women who are not mothers. And so, like, in society, like, he was talking about people like AOC and Kamala Harris. Why would we trust our country to be run by people who don't have a stake in it? Like, you only have a stake in the country if you are married and, or a parent. And so I think we are, we are living in a time when there is a lot of very polarizing discussion around identity and choice and whose voice matters. And so as a person who is not married, the older I get, you know, I know what it's like to be in a room and feel like you can't participate in the conversation because you're not married and you're not a parent. And so having space, we talk about this lens, talk about the heterogeneity of who we are as a people and how not all of us are going, you know, not all of our experiences will be, you know, partnered or parent, parent centered in any way. And so I think it's, I love that that this book is about illuminating the wide spectrum of experience that exists in black America. Absolutely. I love that.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

No, that's a really great point. And I did not hear that about the congressperson.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I was thinking about who, whether or not I was going to say their name, but I don't want no smoke today. We're not going to give them, we're not going to amplify that, that nonsense. I just, you know, just as there is a lot going on, like comments around, you know, women who are in leadership positions but don't have children and how that somehow impacts their capacity to lead. But I'm sorry, I Cut you off.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

But you know, it's so funny because that's such a great comment. It's so funny how it impacts. People are arguing that it impacts their ability to lead and I would argue that it impact, it does impact their ability to lead, but in a very positive way because in spite of being ostracized, being discriminated against, being stereotyped, they still stand confident, flat footed in their child freeness. So because of that they clearly can lead because they're not swayed by social pressure is what that tells me. If you talk about trying to find some leaders, you want to have people that are single and don't have any children, but all the freedom

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

as child free and not childless. I'm so happy that you did that because that's something that I am moving towards myself. Right? Because people look often look at you as, and your singleness as a function or as a condition and not a choice. Right. And, and that is not true for anyone, not just for certain people, it's not true for anyone. And I have had conversations, even with my mom to your point, about social pressure and have had conversations with other older women in my family and many of them who are not married now for a number of reasons, whether by losing their spouse to death or sickness or even getting a divorce, many of them talk about, I never thought intentionally about whether or not I wanted to be partnered or married. It just sort of felt like what I was supposed to do. It's like people looked at me at a certain age and said, well, when you gonna get married? And I felt like I had to do that as some sort of rites of passage for my adulthood. But if I would have known that I had a choice, I might have made a different one.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Right. And that's why hopefully the Love Jones cohort, the book can give people more nuanced conversation and give them a choice. There's two things I'm really trying to do. A couple things I'm trying to do in the book, but two things in particular. One is I'm trying to destigmatize singlehood. I'm not gonna necessarily call it my ministry. Well, I wanna, but there's three things. One, I wanna sell a whole bunch of books,

[Jade]

set the intention.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

I want to destigmatize singlehood. It's not necessarily my ministry, but if there's one person who opts out of or doesn't get into an oppressive, unfulfilling and toxic relationship after reading the book, then my work here is done. But a lot of times because people don't wanna we title of single because it is, it is bastardized in a lot of way. They end up in these unproductive relationships. So I'm hoping after reading the book, people are like, I don't have to do this. I don't have to do this. And I hope, and I say this in the end of the book, I say, once you finish reading this book, I hope you're just as likely to ask somebody why they're single as you ask somebody, why are you married? We often ask single folks. We have to validate why we are single. But we don't ask married folks why you're married. And we don't wait for a coherent response. Because I love them. I'm gonna need you to give it a more coherency than I love them. After you read the book. Hopefully people will be able to ask answers, ask those questions or stop asking those questions altogether.

[Jade]

Also that. Because why does it matter? What, what, what, what does it, what is it going to do for the rest of this conversation?

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

That is my pet peeve. Especially like on a date, Right. If you want to talk about something that's going to get me to check out immediately.

[Jade]

Absolutely. Because why are you single, sir?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Why are you single? This back and forth, listeners, but it happened. Let me tell you how you can answer that now. First of all, yeah, the way I can answer it now, I can say, oh, you need to pick up my book and read chapter three, paragraph four lines.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Let me get you a link. Let me get you a link right quick. Get down to your Amazon right quick and go ahead and click. It'll be here tomorrow. It'll be here tomorrow.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

All right, so, you know, you know, we can say. Because I can do that. And y' all can be like, like go read this book called A Love Jokes where they ask that question. Skip to the afterwards. You need to. Right, right. So you can do that too. But I think also when you're. And one of the things I tell people, whenever somebody says something that's racist, sexist, homophobic or xenophobic, you can always push back on them, like, what do you mean by that? And keep making them answer the question until they say, oh, never mind. I was like, why do I have to validate my stance? I was like, no, I'm gonna make you. I'm push back. Like, what do you mean by that?

[Ebony]

That?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Well, you have this, this and this. Well, what do you mean by that? Well, what do you mean by that? And at some point they're going to see the error in their ways. They're going to drop it or just like, oh, you know. But I think it's really important that we don't know. I'm not going to sit here and have this conversation I'm pushing on. The onus is going to be on you to explain why you think that that's an appropriate question to ask. And I sure as my name is Chris Marsh, because I've been doing a couple of talks with the book. Every question that I get in the Q and A is like, are you available? And I was like, you know, I'm like, please understand. And I get hate mail. I want to be real clear about that. People like, you're not supporting black America. You're not supporting black families. That's part of the problem. Listen, I'm not going to support toxic relationships. I'm absolutely not going to do that. I'm all for black love and black marriage if it's done right. But the way to do it right is to understand your singlehood. Be confident, be happy, healthy and whole in your comp. In your singlehood. And then you can think about relationships. If you're going to get into a relationship simply to fill a void. That sounds like a need. And I am of the mindset that needs have an expiration. Yes, Lord, absolutely. And once that expiration date, expiration date comes to fruition, you no longer need.

[Jade]

That person needs a fleeting. And they're very fleeting.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

I want to be wanting, not needed. So I tell anybody I am very comfortable. Comfortable and happy in my singleness. If. If. Am I open to it? Yeah, but you're not gonna come up in here just dropping my piece. You won't protect it and preserve it if you can't do that. I'm not saying words.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Value add. Okay? It's a value add over here.

[Jade]

Okay.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

You need to be adding value. Are you adding value?

[Jade]

I said that, Takiya, when I.

[Ebony]

Before.

[Jade]

Before I got married, I was single, obviously, and I was happy being single. I was actually very pleased, very content. I was like, I don't actually want. I don't even want a partner. Like, I don't want that. And then it just so happened, happened that this person came in and they added value into my life. And that's where it opened up things that I said, okay, now, now you know, I'll be open to this. So I agree with you. I think that you need to be. Be content with yourself and be like, solidified in your own happiness while you're there. And then if Somebody comes along then cool. But I also think it's. I know there's some people who just want to be in love. What do you say to people like that? Because there's some people who are like, I love love and I just want to be in love love.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

And I think that that's a beautiful thing and I'm not knocking that. However, getting ready to gate everything I just said, I think oftentimes, you know, we're, this is in the month, we're in the month of February. So Valentine's Day is this month. Right. It's also Black History Month. So I think when we think about black love, we need to not think about it. And so narrow, narrow minded points of view. It's very short sighted when you think it has to be romantic love. One of the things that the cohort members in the book told me is that their close friends were essential to their single lifestyle. So although you may not have the romantic love, you have a not a lot of non romantic loving relationships. Don't underestimate that for some, some brother, a sister who may not even be about it and it's just a predator. Just know it sees you're lonely and with this predator will be a predator and you will end up and disgusted and you treat a non romantic relationship, you're undervaluing those. So I am saying in black America a lot of us have the loving relationships there. They just don't look like what people tell us it should look like. And that's what I'm trying to push back. And like that's just very narrow minded and short sighted. And in black America we definitely have those relationships. And the black women in the book really talked about how their sister circles and their girlfriends really helped them navigate their singleness. Black men did not necessarily talk about it as much in the book. And one of the things that they did say like black women have very non romantic but nurturing relationship with other women. Yes. Black men in the book, in some ways they use their, their male friends for utility purposes like to help move a couch

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

or to watch a game.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

You can't really have these non romantic nurturing relationships with men because they may think we're soft, they may think we're gay. And so I'm trying to normalize men having non romantic loving relationships with other men as well because some of the cohort members just really didn't talk about that.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I feel like it's as we get older or as I get older, I say I'm becoming much more adept and Proficient at thinking about love in more expansive ways. And so I feel like a lot of the ways that we've been thinking about love as a convention, like you said, has been limited sort of romantic partnership, but also has sort of taken on this transactional sort of space. And I think one of the things that I was sort of working on in my own sort of personal development and growth is really wanting to sort of feel and know and understand love beyond it being beyond that sort of transactional give and take sort of sort of thing. And I think that that's really important. And I could see that as being valuable for people. Talk about, like, you know, black family, black community. And it's so interesting that people would assume that. That this kind of work is against the cultivation of black family and black community when I feel like these conversations facilitate healthier and more productive conversations about black family and black communities. So could you talk a little bit about some of that hate and resistance that you've gotten in response to doing this work? And. And what are some of the ways that you are responding to it?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Right? And yes, I do get hate mail. And it's so funny. It's like, okay, so you went. You took the time to type in the University of Maryland, type in sociology, scroll down to M email, and then send me a crap. I ain't crap. I ain't never been crap. My mama ain't crap. I was like, well, dad.

[Jade]

So I think just because they don't

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

agree with you, because they think I need to be out here promoting black families, I am, right?

[Jade]

Why does a family have to look like a mom and a dad and a baby and a dog and a this and that? Why is that a black family?

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Right?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

And I'm. I'm pushing back against that. And I'm just like. And see, I don't. So sometimes there are people. There's people that look like me that actually have hate mail, but sometimes you don't know who the person kind of is. But I think I'm supposed to be out here saying, y' all need to work this out. You know, that struggle, love. I'm not doing that struggle, love, love thing. I'm not doing that. You married for. You married for 25 years, and two of those are good. Come on, now. I'm not. I'm never going to promote something like that, but I am promoting black family. And one of the things that I talk about in the book, two Things about Family, I talk about two different perspectives. One, I'm saying, why can't we Be a family of one. And this is important because I am, as a single person, I'm considered a household by definition. Using the Census Bureau definition. The Census Bureau defines the irs. I'm gonna get there. One second. So the Census Bureau defines family by someone that you're related to by blood, adoption, or marriage. That's what a family is. Since I'm not related to anybody in my household, I'm considered a household, not a family. I am arguing that single people and single who are living alone should be considered a family of one because they are being discriminated against in so many different ways. I'm gonna give you, you a benign example and a more egregious example. If I want to go to get a cell phone plan, the family plan, I can't. You know, it's just me. I want the family plan rate with my one phone. If I want to go on vacation, I got to pay single occupancy rate versus double occupancy rate. I want the single family plan rate. An egregious example. Tax structures. Tax structures benefit certain kind of married couples, and it disadvantages single folks. There's a lady who's doing some work, I think her name is Dorothy Brown, and she wrote a book called the Whiteness of Wealth. And her argument is it is we either all file a single, which I think is good, or I think we should all be able to follow some kind of family, and we need to be able to consider. Be considered. Be considered a family of one. I'm not big on trying to change topics and terms and stuff like that, but you are discriminating an open sight about a family of one. I want to come back to that. I want to put a pin there because the other family I want to talk about is augmented families. The other argument that I make in the book is that to the point I made earlier about how black women are developing these really nurturing relationships with other women, why can't we get together, become considered an augmented family, and we develop a family and be considered a family? I'm drawing from Andrew Billings, another sociologist that said, hello, older sociologists, sociologist from time, way back, who was arguing about these augmented families. They're not. They're not related by blood, but they're true families. We have some girlfriends that we're closer to than some of our family members. Why can't we develop a family? Especially if you're talking about middle class folks and we talk about people who have assets, how are you going to disseminate your assets? Assets I'M not getting ready to get booed up with some dude to make sure I know where my assets is going to go. But my girl gonna make sure my assets are taken care of. So why can't we be an augmented family? One more point I want to make and I'm gonna turn it back over. Getting back to the first point I made about family of one. Now here's what I think is an interesting conversation. One of the things I'm arguing in the book is that we need to look at singlehood from an intersectional approach. The reason why we have to is because if we just say, oh, you got all these people that are out here being single. I do believe, like people that don't look, look like me are choosing single. They're like, okay, we're gonna do singlehood. I think when we start having a conversation about black women in particular, it's a slightly different kind of conversation. And we have to understand how structural forces constrain personal period, full stop. But you're not gonna do is we cannot leave it at the individual level. We cannot. So when we say, oh, maybe it's something about black women, you not gonna have this conversation and put it on, put the onus on me and not bring in the structural conversation, the structural train on personal choices. So when someone asks you why you single, you could say, Dr. Marsh said, and I quote, page 75 of her book, strain my personal choices. But here's, but here's why I think this is really an interesting conversation. If we think about intersectionality and we think about race, class, and to some race, gender to some degree, class. I am making an argument that one, we need to look at singlehood from an intersectional perspective. I'm also arguing, feeling that if we think about the matrix of domination, we think about race, class, gender. We need to include singleism in that conversation. So let me get this straight. So let me get this straight. Structural forces constrain my personal choices and then you discriminate against me. That is what I would call insidious. Now, some days I buy my argument, some days I don't. I'm just real honest. One of the things, one of the things I don't want people to think, I'm saying that singlehood is as oppressive as racism. But I do want you to think about is how we live in a partnered and married market. If we think about how racism and anti blackness permeates every social institution. I would argue being married and partner and the discrimination against singles permeates every social institution too. I'm not having. I'm not putting on the same plane, but we gotta have a conversation about it.

[Ebony]

Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with epglis, a once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four month or longer dosing phase. About four in 10 people taking EB GLISS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

most of those people maintain skin that's

[Ebony]

still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[Commercial Announcer]

Hempglus Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg per 2ml injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Epglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to epglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Eglis before starting ebglis. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

[Ebony]

Ask your doctor about Eglis and Visit or call 1-800-LILYRX or 1-800-545-5979.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and where Back for another season.

[Commercial Announcer]

I'm so excited to be joined this

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

season by friends like John Mullaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson sometimes wherever you get your podcasts. Ryan Reynolds here from Int Mobile.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I don't know if you knew this,

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. Join it's not just for celebrities.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

So do like I did and have

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

[Commercial Announcer]

I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available Taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail]

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I love that person. So many reasons. It makes me think, okay, I'm going to start citing you and quoting your book as opposed to what I've been saying. Right. So as of now, when especially women, older women, mothers, when they ask me why I'm single, I typically say, it's because y' all stop raising your sons. I will try. I will try to. I feel like yours is a much more diplomatic response. But my second point that I was going to say say is I totally buy your argument around this idea

[Jade]

that

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

there is a level of sort of marginalization that comes by function of being single, especially in a society where there are privileges afforded to marriages that we don't have the capacity to access. I wonder, though,

[Ebony]

where

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

should we be having these conversations and sort of like, what's the first sort of place to start? Is it sort of getting more comfortable in our personal circles having these conversations, bringing these things up, opening up this sort of nuance and complexity? Or should we be be taking these kinds of conversations to different platforms and spaces to sort of move us forward in changing the language?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

So we answer that in two ways. So the first I'm going to answer that is to say, yeah, I think it really is important to kind of have these conversations in our intimate circles, because I do think a lot of people think that there's something emphatically wrong with them if I just pray harder, if I just lose a little weight, if I just gain a little weight, if I just cut my hair a little bit, if I just press here.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I think what the market encourages, though, I feel like all of that is a. I'm sorry, I'm just jumping in here, but I feel like there's so much language around that. And just to tell all of my business, forgive me, but like, I. I have. It's only one other girl. First cousin in my family and my mom's side. There. There are seven grandkids and there's only two girls. Both of us are doctors. My grandma used to say I got two granddaughters and both of them is doctors, and both their heads look a mess. But because we had natural hair, she just didn't understand why she wanted all about the creamy crack. It was. But the point I'm trying to make is neither me nor my cousin. I'm sorry, Ebony, I'm telling you, a business, too. Neither of us are married, but we, despite the, I guess, success that we have had in our lives professionally, you'd be surprised at how Many people sort of still see us and say, oh, oh, you know, I was like, but,

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

aw, I feel so bad for you because you're going home to somebody you don't even like, let alone love. But you almost. I'm like, yeah, I'm very happy. I am very happy with my. Love spending time with me. Love spending time with me. And I got the freedom to do whatever I want to do. I don't have to be emotionally responsible for anybody else. Else. That is freeing me. That is. That is freed up at its absolute best. I have to be emotionally responsible myself and only myself. Furthermore, I don't think we should have to be responsible for anybody. If you are over the age of 18 and you black and professional, you just see yourself a therapist. I see my therapist every Monday at 10:00'. Clock. Every Monday at 10:00'. Clock. You're, like, gonna have me lose my mind up in here, you know, you not. That's what you're not ready to do.

[Jade]

I love the lens that you've put on this, actually. I love it though. And I think it's really important for all of us across the board. Right. Because you talk about relationships with other black women. I think even as a, as a married person, my relationships with my sisters do not. Or my relationship with my husband does not replace the relationship I have with my chosen sisters. You know, those relationships are very important. And I find my. I find myself to be in love with my, My sisters, you know, and that in that way. So I agree with you that being in love doesn't have to look a specific way. And I think we need to open up way more conversations around this because it's so important. Right. Especially with the way this world is going. Like, this is what we need. This is what we need to be talking about.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Yeah, yeah. And I do think that sometimes what happens is that people get. People are partnered or married, and they put all of their eggs in that emotional basket, and that that is daunting. You need to have friends, get yourself some play dates, and make sure you spend time with your partner, but also make sure you spend time with your friends. You cannot put all of that on somebody else. And that's really important. And to, to, to that point, I also want to dovetail and say it's really interesting, like how you have a lot of marriage and family therapists that deal with, like, marriages and relationships, but sometimes I've lost two, two dear friends because, you know, I, you know, I get a little sidetracked sometimes and I get like, oh, I get, I get. I get. I get a little busy work, you know, I admit. And sometimes. So we. I think we need to also normalize. When there's a little bit of crunchiness that happens in those friendships or their sister relationships, we can go and talk to someone. We prioritize going to. Going to therapy when it's your partner, but we don't go when it's your girlfriend, especially if you want to be able to keep that relationship. We don't even have. I don't even know. I'm not aware of any therapists say, hey, you having a friend breakup? You haven't divorced your friend. Let's see if it can work through. If you want to work through, you just. You just have a divorce from your friend. You just go right on about your business. So the other way, I would answer your question, too, which I think is kind of an interesting way of thinking about it. Yes, we need to have these conversations in these intimate spaces. I am now of the mindset after having written this book, and I think I indirectly said it in the book, too. How about you pay. You pay black Americans reparations and see if that might change marriage rates. Miss me on anything short of that at the federal level.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Tell me more about why, though, Because

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

I feel like we need to really

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

be clear about that distinction. And I love what you were saying around how there are structural conditions that limit my personal choices.

[Jade]

Right.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

My capacity to make choices and my agency as an individual person is limited by systems and structures.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Please. Okay, now, I'm not making a value judgment. I'm giving an example. So just go with me for a second. Second. So they. In the social science literature, it's called, like, educational homogeny. You want to marry somebody on the same level. So if I, Chris Marsh, get a professional degree and I want to marry another black man, my. My dating pool is constrained. If I then make six figures, I make $150,000. My dating pool is still then constrained. If I then decide that I'm going to buy myself a piece of property, my dating pool is then constrained. If I build myself, if I build my. If I have a living trust for Wilkes. I talk about all of that in the book. Look, my dating choices are constrained. Pay black Americans reparations, we may not be there.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Let's level the playing fields. Work us all up to the same place. Why don't you?

[Jade]

They don't want to do that, though.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

And if we think about reparations, and, you know, it's funny how, like, we have a conversation about relationships. But reparations come up. But reparations should be paid at the federal level to black Americans. They should get access to capital. If we have access to capital, we might be able to date somebody on the same level as us. Now, now, please understand what I'm saying. If that's what you want to do. Don't judge anybody if they don't. If they want to date somebody on their same level. Why is it everybody thinks it's okay to police black women? We need to lower our standards. We too picky. We need some woman. We need a man down, a woman up. Why everybody policing black women pay us reparations and see what we can. We can make this thing work.

[Jade]

I don't care what these people say. I don't want no who work at Radio Shack. And I just. I don't have no problem saying it.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Now.

[Jade]

Y' all not gonna make me feel bad for saying I don't want no who work at Radio Shack.

[Ebony]

Okay?

[Jade]

What? I go get two jobs, right?

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

We too picky. We too picky.

[Jade]

If we.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

If we. If we. If. And, you know, if we. If we want to marry somebody who has the same. Is of the same elk as us, who's of the same socioeconomic status as us, it's a problem. Okay.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

People do try to demonize that lot. Yeah, they do. Rich. I love this because I feel like conversations about singlehood are often very limited to the Galentines and all that other foolishness. Right?

[Ebony]

So.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

So. And I'm not sure I say foolishness, but I just feel like. Like, you know, because it's those. Those conversations, those interactions, those relationships that we have are. Are very important. But I do think, like, you know, this. This conversation I love because it's me. It's a sort of adds the complexity back into a conversation that for a long time has been way too polarizing. So thinking about reframing singleness as a choice and sort of negating all of this rhetoric around it being sort of the worst, like a death sentence.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Right. There's two things I want to add to. So one of the things I asked in the book is I asked whether or not people in the cohort. They're both men and women in the cohort that I interviewed, I really had to grapple with that because there were more women. Women dominate the category. But I didn't want to exclude men from the conversation because, again, I wanted everybody by the book. So I decided to include men. But I'm glad that I did because a couple gender differences showed up one is about these friend networks, but then also thinking about like who's stigmatized with their singleness. And I swear, as a scholar, I struggle to make meaning of what, what these respondents were saying. So here's the, here's the take home message. Everybody thinks singles are stigmatized, but sometimes younger folks are indicting older folks. Sometimes older folks are indicting younger folks. Sometimes men are indicting women, women are indicting men. In my, in my cohort, one of the things that was really fascinating is that some people said that younger folks are more stigmatized being single. And their reasoning is because you have a larger dating pool. So since you have a large, larger dating pool, something must be wrong with you once you get older, people are dying off. And so you don't have as big of a dating pool. So o fine, we'll give you a pass. You won't be stigmatized. Then they said men are more stigmatized than women because you got that really creepy dude at the end of the block who ain't got no kids, they've been married. But then if women are single, like we're, we're, we're ball busters. We're the educated black and all. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on tv. I apologize.

[Jade]

Oh, please

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

leave that out if you need to.

[Jade]

You're good.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

And we're just too picture. So I really wasn't able to parse out who was more stigmatized or where the stigmatized, where this stigma lied. But I was able to find out that one common denominator is that everybody thinks that singles are stigmatized in one way or another. And I thought that that was a really interesting component that came up out of the book. The other thing that was really interesting too, I talked a lot about wealth because you had people that own assets. So I wanted to know how people were accumulating wealth and how they were disseminating wealth because I wanted to know people were like waiting until they got married to like acquire we wealth and houses in particular and so, and businesses. So people, some of the cohort members are like, yeah, I got a house, I bought a house. I wasn't, I wanted to do it with a partner, but it didn't happen. So now I have my house and if I don't get married, I have to figure out how I'm going to disseminate myself, my wealth to the next generation or my house to the next generation. Because if we think about it from a social science perspective, assets are usually Class status is usually transferred from parent to child. But if the cohort are the second largest household type in the black middle class, they don't necessarily don't have children. They don't have partners who are going to transfer their wealth to. It becomes an innovative conversation and an important discussion. And what we know is that black folks know how to be innovative and we know how to make that thing happen. So although we don't have, like, children, we have God children. We have nieces and nephews and social nieces and nephews. And we're going to transfer and we're probably taking care of some of them now. We need to find a way to make sure that we can get the benefits, the tax benefits, because as single folks, we. One of the things we do know in the literature is that singles checkbook becomes the family checkbook. We got Jesus, everybody in our time in some ways too, because we don't have a partner and we don't have children, people think we don't have obligations. So when my father has to go to the doctor's appointment, I got to fly from California, from Maryland, all the way to California to take him to a 15 minute neurology appointment. Now, it's the first man that ever loved me, the first man that I ever loved. I will always do it for him.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Him.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

But I got my married sister Kim, who I can't call on because he can't call her because she's married, but I'm 3,000 miles away. She lives 30 minutes away, but she's married. Okay, makes sense. Well, she's also married to a woman too, so I think that would have something to do with it too. That's the conversion.

[Jade]

That's something else we have to talk about within the black community. But we'll save that for another episode.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Lots of work to do, don't.

[Ebony]

We don't.

[Jade]

So much work to do.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

So much work. So much work.

[Jade]

Wow. Wow. So the bottom line of this entire conversation is by the book is, I think, is what everybody needs to do.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

So. Okay, wait, so, okay, you know, I got a story for everything. Okay, so listen, when you buy the book, understand that it is written from Cambridge University Press, the top academic press in the world. I don't say that lightly because I am, I feel honored and I highly blessed to be there talking about black folks that are single and living alone now, because it is Cambridge. The introduction and chapter one are a little bit theoretical. If that's not your thing, just skip to chapter two.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Hold on by that.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

I. I wrote the book. And I just perused past chapter, the introduction to chapter one, chapter two, you really get a chance to hear from the respondents, and they talk a lot about, like, their experiences being single and living alone. One thing I want to say quickly, and I'll come back to the book, one thing I do want to say is, like, I want to be balanced in conversation. There were people that talked about being lonely. Loneliness and singleness does kind of like come up in conversation in tandem, together in conversation. And it's so funny because when we say alone, people don't. I think 10 years from now, we probably won't use the word alone. If you don't like the word alone, call it a lovely one. But anyway, lovely one. When you're in your lovely oneness, sometimes people will talk about being lonely. But the cohort did not talk about a chronic loneliness. They talked about, like, situational loneliness. So you have Valentine's Day, you have New New Year's Eve, but you're getting a little lonely around those times. But they don't jump into relationships Simply because of two major holidays out of 364 days out of the year. They have their friends that really help them through the loneliness. So I don't want to say that everything's always perfect, but they. It's. It's situational, it's short term, and it's not this chronic, debilitating type of loneliness. So the other thing about the book, if you don't like theory, skip on to number two, chapter two. The other thing is that my editor said, said if you ever feel like you're going off on a tangent when you're talking, like, when you're writing just like how I'm talking today, he's like, put it in a footnote, but try to keep it to a minimum. So I got 120 footnotes in the book. I had some tangents I wanted to say, but a lot of the juicy stuff is in the footnotes. Let me give you one quick example, then I'll. We can end. So I had a footnote. Like, I can't remember what chapter was in, but it was empty. I hadn't did everything in the footnote. I messed up so much. And I was like, oh, this is perfect, because I'm gonna. I'm gonna show that the census for the first time ever had like a singles week. It was sometime in September. It was September 18th to September 24th, I believe it's like singles week because 50 of the population are single, regardless of race, class, gender, sexual orientation. Almost 50 of the population. So they have like a week that's dedicated to singles. A week. Okay, thank you. What's also interesting about that week, September 18th to the 24th, I believe it was, is. Is that September 22nd, if I'm not mistaken. Look in the book, to quote me, make sure I'm not. I'm not misquoting myself, but September 22, 2022, is how long black women would have to work into 2022 to make what the average white male made the previous year, 264 days. If I'm not mistaken, black women have to work into 2022 to make what white men the white man made in 21. Now, that doesn't necessarily relate directly to the book, but that's a juicy footnote. If you don't read the footnotes, you gonna miss out on that. And because I wanted you to make sure. I want to make sure you read the footnotes, I put them at the bottom of the page so the book is going to feel more academic. But the footnotes got the juicy stuff. Read the footnotes, please.

[Jade]

She's like, the footnotes got the Easter eggs.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Get to the good shit. Don't miss your blessing. Don't miss. Miss your blessing. I'm not going to.

[Jade]

I'm going to get to the footnotes and I'm going to breathe by chapter. I'll take your advice, breeze by chapter one and I'll just head right on.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Yeah. Let me tell you, I had to copy edit the book. It took me an entire day to copy edit chapters. The introduction to chapter one. I copy edited chapter two to ten the very next day. It's a much different reading in chapter two.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Easy breezy.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Yeah.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yeah.

[Ebony]

I love that.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Well, we love this. And this is so important. I love that. You know, hearing one of the things we say again, grown. One of the lessons that we learn through adulting is that two things can be true at one time.

[Jade]

Hello.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

This is not about. This is having. Having nuanced productions about singleness does not mean that we are partner bashing, marriage bashing, men bashing in any. In any particular. In. In any way, shape, form or fashion. And this is not even to say that we're close to relationships or romantic relationships, if that is a thing. But it's just a time and a space for us to think about singleness in a much more affirming and positive and sort of being powerfully autonomous and giving black people, black women, specifically, that space. That right. And permission to do that.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

That right.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Because unfortunately, a Lot of. A lot of times it is often stigmatized in ways that. That are. Are not helpful for any of us. So thank you so much, Dr. Marsh, for coming and sharing time and space with us at the kitchen table, being a part of our family. You are welcome back anytime, anytime.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Thank you for having me, Dr. Robinson. I gotta call you that. Thank you so much for me having been a joy and a pleasure. And the energy I'm getting from you all is just so incredibly intoxicating. So thank you

[Jade]

all. The links will be in the description box if you're listening, so make sure you can go check out the Love Jones Cohort link is in the description box. All of the information on Dr. Marsh is in the description box. So make sure you all go check that out. And that is the end of our show this week. Thank you to Dr. Chris. Yes.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Yes.

[Jade]

Oh, yes. Thank you for your patience.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

I mean, y' all didn't have no choice, right? But yesterday, Jade and I convened to record the episode. After our recording with the guests and the WI fi at my hotel was not given what it was, she said,

[Jade]

oh, get somebody else to do it, literally.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

And we troubleshooted. And I was online with technical assistance for an hour. But between that and the time difference, it just didn't work. So we had to pivot a little bit. But thank y' all for waiting. We hope the episode was worth the wait. I truly enjoyed learning more about Dr. Marsh's work.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

And let's think about all of the new and nuanced ways we can talk about singlehood, honey, because it's giving. It's giving options, it's giving autonomy, it's giving agency, it's giving. And we don't. We can build and choose to lead the lives that we want without any social pressure.

[Jade]

And I found it beautiful this year that so many people, you know, on love Day, if that's your thing, chose to post about their community or about the love for themselves. And it wasn't just romantic focus. And I think a combination of all types of love. Love is so important for us to take a look at and pay attention to. You know, it doesn't look one way. So I love. I love that conversation with Dr. Kristen. I'm really, really grateful that she came and shared space with us. Make sure you all check out her book, the Love Jones Cohort. All the information will be in the description box. And, sister, take us out and tell us what to do.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

Continuing to drink as much water as you can to moisturize your insides. You always want to remember to moisturize your mind by attending to the business that is yours and yours alone. And you always want to moisturize your skin. Why sis?

[Jade]

Because your black will crack if it's dry.

[Host (Dr. Robinson)]

That's it.

[Dr. Chris Marsh]

Bye bye.

[Ebony]

Eczema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with Epglis, a once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema after an initial four month or longer dosing phase. About 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[Commercial Announcer]

MGLIS Lebricizumab, a 250mg per 2ml injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Epglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Epglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglis. Before starting ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

[Ebony]

Ask your doctor about EBGLISS and Visit or call 1-800-LILYRX or 1-800-545-5979.

[Commercial Announcer]

Real talent is defined by what people can do, not where they learn to do it. So by stopping at the education section

[Jade]

of a resume, you might throw away

[Ebony]

the perfect hire skills first.

[Commercial Announcer]

Hiring helps you see talent. Others move miss like more than 70 million stars skilled through alternative routes, let their story unfold and gain a competitive advantage because hiring managers who start with skills are 60% more likely to find a successful hire. Hire skills first. Learn why at tearthepaperceiling. Org, brought to you by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council.