Holley Not Jolly (Feat. Dr. Shanté Holley)

Summary

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Gettin' Grown – “Holley Not Jolly” (feat. Dr. Shanté Holly)

Podcast by: Loud Speakers Network
Release date: May 26, 2026
Hosts: Keia & Jade | Guest: Dr. Shanté Holly

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Episode Overview

This episode features hosts Keia and Jade in heartfelt, humorous, and insightful conversation with Dr. Shanté Holly (not Jolly!), a cultural scholar and trauma-informed life coach. The Kitchen Table Talk unfolds as the trio draws distinctions between therapy and coaching, exposes the risks of uncredentialed "experts," dives deep into the realities of trauma and healing, and explores how Black women, at every age, can reclaim agency and curiosity in their lives. The episode is rich with analogies, warm banter, and practical wisdom for anyone “learning how to adult” in real time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Drag Race Chit-Chat & Life Updates (04:06–12:15)

• Hosts banter over Drag Race: All Stars, reflecting on favorites, drag culture, and TV as a gateway to underrepresented cultures.
  • “Drag is that drag. All the ways that drag can exist. It really is expansive to watch it.” (Kia, 07:51)
• Life Reflections: Keia’s gratitude for stillness and being home; Jade’s reflections on her fulfillment volunteering at a juvenile detention center, emphasizing the importance of enrichment and joy for all children regardless of circumstances.
  • “Kids deserve enrichment, man. No matter the circumstance.” (Jade, 11:54)

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2. Introduction of Dr. Shanté Holly (14:54–18:35)

• About Dr. Holly:
  • Cultural scholar, trauma-informed life coach, writer.
  • Focuses on emotional wellness, social insight, and cultural critique.
• Memorable introduction moment:
  • “First name Doctor, last name Shanté… just gotta give me a beat and bars!” (Dr. Holly, 16:56)

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3. Understanding Dr. Holly’s Approach & Journey (19:01–21:41)

• Social Inquiry & Trauma:
  • Dr. Holly’s academic background in social inquiry—questioning how society shapes us.
  • Her pivot from branding to trauma-informed work after realizing invisible trauma often impedes clients’ progress.
  • “You can give somebody the playbook…but there’s something in between what I want to do and what I’m doing.” (Dr. Holly, 19:16)

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4. Therapy vs. Coaching: What’s the Difference? (23:10–33:33)

• Therapists diagnose, unpack, and treat emotional wounds, often using clinical tools and diagnostics.
• Coaches help clients translate awareness into action—they ask, 'What do you want to do about that?'
  • Sports analogies clarify: therapy is for those “on injured reserve,” while coaching is for “the starting five” ready to play but needing strategy.
• Credentialing:
  • The rigorous process of becoming a therapist contrasted with the loosely regulated coaching industry. Not all coaching programs are accredited; consumers should seek peer-reviewed, accredited programs.
• Quote:
  • “Explanation is not absolution, honey. It is a lens for understanding and process, not a permission slip to hurt people with impunity.” (Dr. Holly, 33:08)

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5. The Dangers of Internet “Experts” & Self-Diagnosis (31:10–42:42)

• Buzzwords and self-diagnosis run wild on social media.
  • “People use pathology to justify behavior… but explanation is not absolution.” (Dr. Holly, 32:11)
• Importance of Receipts & Peer Review:
  • In academia, receipts (evidence, peer review, credentialing) are essential. Anyone claiming “doctor” status in professional settings should provide documentation.
  • “Research is about evidence. That’s it.” (Dr. Holly, 42:41)

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6. Trauma: What It Really Is & How It Shows Up (50:38–57:01)

• The Three E’s of Trauma: Event, Experience, Effect
  • Trauma isn’t about what happened, but what lingers—the effect.
  • Example: a childhood scare can be just an uncomfortable event, or if it leads to avoidance behaviors, it becomes trauma.
• The ABC’s of Trauma: Adversity, Beliefs, Choices
  • The beliefs formed from adversity shape our decisions and life outcomes.
  • “Behavior always betrays beliefs.” (Dr. Holly, 55:06)

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7. The Therapy-Coaching Continuum & “Getting Out of the Water” (57:01–62:00)

• Radical Acceptance Analogy: Trauma is falling in a river—you can’t change being knocked in, but healing means asking, “Do you want to get out of the water?”
• Adapting to Survival: Many so-called "personality traits" (e.g., being the fixer, the strong one) may be just survival adaptations from adverse environments.

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8. Possibility, Soil, and Personal Discovery—Across Generations (62:28–73:44)

• Changing “Soil:”
  • Interviewing Black Americans who left the US for Portugal found they became different people in safer environments.
  • “Imagine who you could be if you were in different soil, literally and figuratively.” (Dr. Holly, 67:06)
• Coaching Across Ages:
  • Dr. Holly’s clients range from 24 to 72. Many older clients express surprise at discovering new options in life, after being conditioned to follow a narrow script.
  • Pie chart analogy: expanding “slices” (career, friends, hobbies) beyond just work, love, and family.

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9. Boundaries, Motherhood, and Generational Healing (77:48–85:04)

• Boundaries are not walls—they keep us in relationship.
  • Baggage claim analogy: Don’t pick up what’s not yours.
• Motherhood and Self-Possession:
  • Learning her child “came through you, but does not belong to you.”
  • Emotional fluency is often missing in families, leading to cycles of guilt and misplaced responsibility.
• A key question for growth:
  • “If you stay on this path of people-pleasing… what will that look like 20 years from now?” (Dr. Holly, 84:59)

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10. Who Is a Good Candidate for Coaching? (91:03–96:04)

• Coaching is for:
  • People who have done some inner work, can reflect honestly, and feel ready to be challenged.
  • Those looking for “new slices of the pie” in life or tired of rereading “chapter 15” and seeking new chapters.
• Therapy is for:
  • Those deep in the lingering effects of trauma, struggling with severe anxiety, self-harm, or instability.

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11. Dr. Shanté’s Self-Care & Joy Practices (86:34–90:24)

• Dr. Holly’s resistance is joy:
  • “Joy is resistance for me… I still have choice in how I navigate these circumstances.” (88:13)
• Rejects rigid planning, instead builds her year around six self-inquiry questions.
• Advice for longevity: Build community and purpose beyond romantic love (i.e., more “slices in the pie”).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On credentialed expertise:
  • “In academia, receipts [evidence, documentation] are everything.” (42:41 – Dr. Holly)
• On the rise of internet grifters:
  • “The podcaster to grifter pipeline is real.” (39:24 – Dr. Holly)
• On trauma and survival:
  • “Many traits are just survival adaptations that have calcified—what we call personality may just be what you had to do to survive.” (62:28 – Dr. Holly)
• On mother-daughter generational change:
  • “There are times where I want to talk to her about it, but we can’t relate at that level. But it gives me perspective and helps me see her as a woman, not just my mom.” (77:03 – Kia)
• On boundaries:
  • “We stand at the conveyor belt of life, reaching for other people’s bags and pulling them off the belt. But that’s not your bag!” (79:19 – Dr. Holly)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro banter & Drag Race discussion: 04:06–12:15
• Kitchen Table guest intro & bio: 14:54–19:01
• Differences between therapy & coaching: ~23:10–33:33
• Self-diagnosis & internet experts: ~31:10–42:42
• Peer review & evidence in academia: 42:41
• Trauma basics & analogies: 50:38–57:01
• Therapy/coaching continuum: 57:01–62:00
• 'Soil' & change across generations: 62:28–73:44
• Boundaries & family responsibility: 77:48–85:04
• Who coaching is for: 91:03–96:04
• Dr. Shanté’s personal growth and self-care: 86:34–90:24

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, intimate, often humorous but deeply insightful.
• A blend of scholarly rigor, cultural critique, and “auntie energy.”
• Frequent use of analogies and lived-experience stories.

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Further Resources & Where to Find Dr. Shanté Holly

• YouTube: YouTube.com/DrShante
• Substack: drshante.substack.com

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Closing Wisdom

• “Behavior always betrays beliefs.” (Dr. Holly)
• “Joy is resistance.” (Dr. Holly)
• “You don’t have to stay where you’re at. Get curious about who you could be.” (Dr. Holly)
• “Your life does not stop lifing just because you are pursuing your credentials or your purpose.” (Kia)

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For Listeners

This exceptionally robust Kitchen Table conversation holds invaluable tools for anyone exploring personal growth, healing from trauma, or seeking to understand the difference between therapy and coaching in the age of “self-help” Instagram. Dr. Holly delivers both compassion and accountability—never shying from hard truths, but always with hope.

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Transcript

[Jade]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Jade]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

Liberty. Liberty.

[Kia]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Kia]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Kia]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

Talking away no, I don't know what to say. I'll say. I'll say it anyway. Today is another day Just to find you shying away I'll be coming for your love okay. Take on me Take on me Take me on Take on me I'll be gone.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

No,

[Jade]

no. Sinuses are crazy.

[Kia]

Praise the Lord.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Negative.

[Jade]

That was not a good choice today. Should have picked another song.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

All right.

[Jade]

How are you feeling today?

[Kia]

Yeah. Respect you sometimes.

[Jade]

And I said, exactly. And I said, kid, don't know what I'm singing until I got to the chorus and Then I couldn't even finish.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay, okay.

[Kia]

I know it. See, in the gym, Shine.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Kia]

In the gym, Maya would be like, oh, you put too much dip on your chip.

[Jade]

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did, Maya. And it broke.

[Kia]

It's like, oh, you put the weight on and then you'd be like, that's

[Dr. Shante Holly]

a little too heavy. Okay, too much dip on the chip.

[Kia]

Let me pull that back a little bit.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jade]

Oh, praise the Lord.

[Kia]

Praise him.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Hey, how are you?

[Jade]

How are you doing? Oh,

[Kia]

what a day.

[Jade]

Go first.

[Kia]

Yes, I'm all right.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I'm safe.

[Kia]

I have what I need. I was just telling, since before we started recording, I'm grateful to have a

[Dr. Shante Holly]

little stillness today,

[Kia]

a little stillness of work, some stillness into the schedule. Some couch writing, if you will. I'm going to get caught up on Drag Race, All Stars and things of that nature.

[Jade]

How deep are you in?

[Kia]

I just doesn't. I'm pretty. I'm pretty behind. Like, I feel like I've watched the first two episodes. Okay, okay.

[Jade]

So you're only two behind.

[Kia]

Okay, okay. Yes, yes, yes.

[Jade]

Yeah. And the latest episode came on last night as we're recording this, the fourth episode where they introduced the new bracket of girls. Because there's three brackets.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

And so. So you're getting. So the first bracket. Okay, so you've seen where we have. We now have Akira.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Dawn.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Jade]

We have. Oh, Mystique.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes, Mystique. Mystique.

[Jade]

The whole first two episodes and 16 carriages. And I'm like, Mystique. Say 16 years. One more time.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

16 years.

[Jade]

Mystique. Lucky Stars.

[Kia]

Who.

[Jade]

You know.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

I am personally a fan of. Like, I. Well, I didn't. We didn't get a lot of Lucky before. And see, when Lucky first came in, I thought I, you know, I was a little spooked because it was Nina Bonina brown reminiscent. And even though I hate feeling this way about a black queen, specifically Nina Benina's brown, Nina Bonina Brown's drag stressed me out. I was like, I see what you're doing. I don't like that Georgia peach. It's making me uncomfortable.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

It looks like a hemorrhoid, but, you know, But Lucky Stars is giving me what I need. And I love the creativity and I love the club kid aspect. And yes, I'm excited to see. And, you know, I love, love, love Akaria. I love a.

[Kia]

Curious.

[Jade]

Yes, I love Curious.

[Kia]

Real, real.

[Jade]

So I'm. I was just very happy to have a' keria back, especially after the way she Exited. Yeah, it's All Stars.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Well, we got that beautiful performance from Silky of Barbie Girl, but anyway. And then Silky's in bracket, too.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay.

[Jade]

Yeah. Silky. Vivacious.

[Kia]

I am. I love All Stars. I like, I. I just. I. Yeah, I don't want to say I like it better, but I'm just always excited to watch a new season of All Stars.

[Jade]

I am. I am a little bit. I was telling xd, like, I don't love the commodification of drag, and I don't love, you know, all that. All that. I love Drag Race, but I don't love what it has done all the way to drag. You know what I'm saying? But I do enjoy the exposure to the different types of queens and then the newer queens. Like, I wouldn't know them if it wasn't for Drag Race, because I don't

[Kia]

have time to go that deep, so. Because I feel like it give.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Kia]

Definite. Just. There's a illumination of the culture that even though it is, you know, a TV show, for a lot of people, this is their entryway.

[Jade]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kia]

And, yeah, you know, it is fun to watch. And it's also just, like you said, like, you know, it's just. It's learning. It's learning that's entertaining. And I just always appreciate just. I. Not watching it like a documentary, but I. That's how I approach it. It's like, I wanna. I'm coming here to sort of get some more. Deeper insight into this. This life and this. This culture. No, I don't say this life like that. I didn't mean it like that. But just, you know, the lifestyle, the.

[Jade]

Just the drag culture.

[Kia]

Yeah. The culture of it. And because you get a gambit.

[Jade]

You get a gambit, you know, because

[Kia]

drag is that drag. Exactly. All the ways that drag can exist. It really is expansive to watch it because, you know, without it, you just sort of think of the really stereotypical ways that it has been depicted in media. And this is what I'm saying. You learn all the different ways that queens are queens, and it's not everyone showing up in the. In the same way. So that's what I mean. Like, I feel like it's. It's expansive and I love to learn about it in that way. And it's just very entertaining as well. It's like, hella funny.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Kia]

And, you know, I love a good beat. Okay. I love to watch the girls pull themselves together.

[Jade]

Okay. Okay. Because even though I don't love her as a queen, Morphine love. Dion Paints a. Paints a beautiful mug. A'. Keria. A' keria is prettier the fuck than me, by far. A' Kerria gets that face together.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Do you hear me?

[Kia]

That mug be stamped. I mean, and secured.

[Jade]

What now? Morgan McMichael stresses me out because I can't get Pink out of my head anytime. No, anytime. He's up there performing like, I can't get Pink out of my head. I just.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

It's wild to see him.

[Jade]

Yeah, he looks like Pink. It's crazy.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Like, very, very much, very much. So very much. It's startling, but I do.

[Jade]

I enjoy it. And then I watched the Pit Stop.

[Kia]

Me, too.

[Jade]

And I love. I love the pits. I love the commentary on the piss.

[Kia]

Yeah, I think.

[Jade]

I think it's not Bob hosting this season, right? It's Bianca.

[Kia]

Bianca.

[Jade]

I think it's Bianca hosting this particular season of the Pit Stop. So. But, you know, they swap back and forth. Is the first guest on there. So we'll come back and have more Drag Race, you know, chitter and chatter as the season goes on.

[Kia]

I will let you know when I'm fully caught up.

[Jade]

Yes, please do. But what is going on with you?

[Kia]

How are you? Nothing much. I'm just working. I'm grateful. Like, I. Like I told you, this has been the first full week and weekend that I've been home and not traveling, so I'm just.

[Jade]

Oh, yes.

[Kia]

Humiliating in my own home, darling. And it's been fantastical.

[Jade]

Same. I got. Yeah, I saw my kids last weekend at the. At the Cuyahoga County Juvenile Detention Center. I gotta stop saying the jail. That's just so crazy. I don't. You know, but you know how we do. We know what you mean, but, you know, y' all know what I mean. So I saw my kids down at CCJ dj and we made Smash burgers. And.

[Kia]

Nice.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I love a good burger.

[Jade]

Yeah. Oh, I love a good Smash burger, honey. And they had all the toppings. They had turkey bacon. Because, you know, some of them came in there preaching, you need to stop with this pork. I'm like, listen here. You need to mind your business and eat what you eat. So we. So we had turkey bacon, and we had pork bacon for those who wanted pork and onions and mushrooms for them to saute all types of toppings and sauces and. And they got to make their own fries. And juice. We did juice on the second day.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

So they got to juice some veggies and fruits, and it's just always beautiful spending time with them. The organization turned the, the gym into the, into a skating rink.

[Kia]

Oh, nice.

[Jade]

There's a company that you can order skates and like a skate on the go kind of situation. Okay.

[Kia]

Like, like, you know.

[Jade]

Yeah. So roller skating and I love that. Did the smash burgers and there were so many other different classes and activities and I, and you know, I, I, I have sat with this time. You know, it's been a little over a year that I've been going and spending time there. And you know, there is a part of me that's like I don't ever want these kids to experience these activities and be like jail is fun. You know what I'm saying? You know, but also on this other side of things, they are still children and they're children who have ended up in unfortunate circumstances. But kids deserve enrichment, man.

[Kia]

And yeah.

[Jade]

No matter the circumstance and enjoyment, they deserve joy at times and they deserve enrichment.

[Kia]

Balance.

[Jade]

I'm just grateful to be a little piece of.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Of all of this and to and to spend time with them. I'm always grateful and I always let them know I'm grateful to spend time with them. So.

[Kia]

It's amazing.

[Jade]

It was really lovely.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Down today.

[Kia]

So yeah.

[Jade]

I'm good, I'm good. But we have such a wonderful kitchen table for you all today I think. Very timely, very timely with all that's going going on and I, and also a gave me a lot of really good information and so we hope that it will give it to you too.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes, indeed.

[Jade]

And so join us at the kitchen table while we have an incredible conversation with Dr. Shante. Holly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Holly.

[Kia]

Holly.

[Jade]

Not. I'm a fan.

[Kia]

Me too.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Jade]

Holly and not jolly. It's Holly. Jolly Christmas. You get more context to that at the top of the episode.

[Kia]

Yes. Y' all just keep me in prayer

[Jade]

brain and not your heart feeling it so much clearly.

[Kia]

But yes.

[Jade]

Come on, let's head on over to the kitchen table.

[Kia]

Let's do it.

[Jade]

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[Kia]

Welcome back to the kitchen table. And I'm excited, borderline pressed a little bit because one of my favorite content creators is at the kitchen table with us. We love to invite just brilliant, amazing people and I'm really excited to welcome this woman to our conversation. So I would like to introduce this up and introduce the other Dr. Shante Jolly, who is a cultural scholar, a writer, a trauma informed life coach whose work sits at the intersection of emotional wellness, social insight and cultural critique. She has a doctorate in education and social inquiry and she brings both scholarly rigor and authority to conversations about healing, identity and human behavior. Dr. Jolly is a published scholar, she has peer reviewed research. She's featured in an inaugural issue of Power and Education. She's a bestseller on substack. She's the Fulbright research finalist. She is one of my fave creators. You can find her down to the Instagrams and over on YouTube. And I am very excited to welcome her because I'm really excited about who she is and the work that she does. So everybody say hey and welcome to Dr. Shante Jolly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Hello. You know, my name is Holly. Like Holly Jolly Christmas.

[Jade]

Okay, that's what I thought. It was hot. It was. I was like, I said, what am I, what am I not understanding,

[Dr. Shante Holly]

y'? All? I can't explain.

[Jade]

Yeah. Oh, yes.

[Kia]

I have been this day.

[Jade]

It's just been Dr. Shantay, Holly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Who the hell is Jolly? I. I just can't.

[Kia]

I'm gonna give you that.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

It rhymes.

[Kia]

It does. Like, I, it's been a week, y', all and I. And I just thank Everyone, for your patience. Her name is Shante Holly, but she is all of the things that I've read, and I don't. I think I'm struggling with the last name, because in my mind and on your social, you're just Dr. Shante. So I think the. You know, either way.

[Jade]

But hey, girl, it's the perimenopause. Blame everything on the.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

We can go the hip hop, right? First name doctor, last name Shantay, you know, and now you just got to give me a beat and bars, and then we can go like that, y'.

[Kia]

All. The perimenopause has achieved this morning. It has been one mistake after another, but either way, we're all happy to be here. We have arrived. And how are you, doctor Yesterday?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I am well. Thank you so much for inviting me to your kitchen table, because, you know, you have to be careful who you invite into your house, and I am honored. You know, I'm taking my shoes off at the door. Okay. I am. I am here to be a guest that adds value to your audience. And so I'm just happy to be at the table. So thank you so much.

[Kia]

We are happy.

[Jade]

We're so happy to have you here.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

You know, if I may, please, you take your shoes off when you go in the house. And nothing makes my heart sing louder. But also, if I may just throw a quick one in there. Y' all, stop wearing your new jeans to people's houses, please, with the fragrance. You know what I'm saying? All over there. Yeah, it's just as bad as wearing one wash anyway. Dr. Shantay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Jade]

So we.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

We.

[Jade]

We do our bios, we do our intros, but we also love our guests to come and introduce themselves because you're more than your work. You know what I mean? And you know, you better than anybody else does. So do you mind introducing yourself to our audience in the way that you would like to be?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Allow me to reintroduce myself.

[Jade]

My name is a.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I'm actually going to be in New York for that concert. I'm like, hey, how you going?

[Jade]

I'm not going. That's crazy.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Come on. I told you I was going.

[Jade]

I know. We tried. Me and My husband tried 800 for the cheap. But, you know, you got to keep

[Dr. Shante Holly]

trying, because they'll go down closer. They will go down. Keep an eye on. I'mma keep looking.

[Jade]

I'mma keep. I'm going. Keep trying, but please.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes, but in all seriousness. So I'm Dr. Shante Holly, and I am a trauma informed cultural Scholar. And for years, my work as an academic was squarely focused in a couple of dimensions. So social inquiry and social inquiry is essentially what it sounds like. It's asking questions about the way that we are constructed as a society. Because a lot of times in society we just kind of go along, but we don't question, we don't disrupt, we don't say, why is it like that? And so that unquestioned acceptance of the status quo is how a lot of power dynamics stay in place. And so my work is all about disrupting cultural narratives and reframing them from a trauma informed perspective. Because something that I learned in my teaching, which subsequently led me to coaching, is that you can give somebody the playbook, you can give somebody the curriculum, you can say, hey, this is the way we fold our clothes. And when they are struggling with executive function, like, I hear what you said and I did read the work, but there's something in between what I want to do and what I'm actually doing. And I'm like, okay, well, let's explore that. And exploring that with my students is what led me to getting a subsequent certification and trauma ambassadorship and trauma informed care. Because a lot of times that's what it was. There was some invisible set of circumstances that came with them into the classroom that was disrupting their ability to execute. And I said, okay, I can work with this. Same thing with coaching. Once upon a time I had this podcast called, like, Branding for Believers, and I was trying to just like, approach this faith based, you know, infusion of like, you know, building your brand and like, you know, you can do it. And same thing. Clients would be like, I'm with it. I'm motivated, I'm ready to go. And then I'm like, where is that thing that you said you were building? Where are the results? And that's like. And then once I again, you know, then once I. Once I got certified in trauma informed care, I was like, let's roll the tape back. Let's talk about who you were before you became who you are and how you got there. And. And once we started to address those pieces, then we could start to move forward. Then they were able to kind of execute. And I'm like, okay, here we go. Because it's not enough just to know what to do. Sometimes you need to know who you are and why there's a disconnect between what you want and where you are.

[Kia]

It is. Yeah, this is a game changer, I will say. And I shared this with Jade. I think I Might have even shared it on the show. In my recent, you know, ADHD diagnosis, I started working with a coach. Right. I've had a therapist for a long time. Sort of started off that work, you know, sort of processing grief and grief counseling and really just appreciated the space to process that. But working with a coach for these last couple of months has been a game changer in terms of helping me to understand the way that acceptance experiences that I've had have rewired my brain. It showed me how, like, to your point, around executive function, it's like, a lot of times I was getting stuck in the why am I this way? As opposed to, like, you know, like,

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I don't know what's wrong with me.

[Kia]

Like, I don't know why I do it this way. And just, like, shaming, you know, like, I need to be doing this, I need to be doing that. And the coaching has helped me to understand actually what is. What are the things that led to the way that I have been functioning and giving me tools to change the functioning. Yes. And what that means. And so it is. It's been illuminating. And so this is. I was really excited about having you on, especially. We're negotiating a unique time in our sort of information ecosystem where people are calling themselves all kinds of things.

[Jade]

Oh, my God. So dangerous, right?

[Kia]

That's real dangerous. And shout out to, you know, friends of the show, Dr. Raquel Martin, for out here doing the Lord's work and helping us to, you know, you know, really generate some. Some good conversation, and that fuels understanding about these things. But I wanted to. I was excited to have you here to really help us talk more about this distinction between therapy and coaching, because I think there's a lot of confusion and conflation. Right. And, you know, we believe that words mean things. So can you.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Words mean things? Yes, words mean things.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So therapists diagnose and provide professional expertise and cognitive behavioral support and guidelines for healing and unpacking and understanding and contextualizing. And that is meaningful work. And sometimes that work takes a long time. Okay. Sometimes you have to go. Like, I remember I used to be like, I was an emotional thug. Like, I. I can own that because I used to be one of those people that was like, try paying your bills with. With your emotions. Right. Like, tears don't pay bills in this house. You know, you got to suck it up. Soldier on. Right.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

When I found myself at a place of struggle, I was like, okay, let me go to counseling. Let me go to. Let me have a couple, two Three sessions. Okay. Get some things off my chest, and then I'm gonna get right back into the mix. I sat down in that chair, and I mean. And five years later, we still rolling. You know, five years later, we still rolling. Because I did not realize how much I had been holding onto and how much of that was filtering into the way that I showed up in real life. And so. And that is also where I got my diagnosis of complex ptsd. And I was like, you don't say. Okay. So she came in with assessments, she came in with diagnostics. She came in with clinical language out of the DSM 4. They probably on 5 now, that told me, like, this is what is presenting in the way that you're showing up in your life. And it was very illuminating to get that language. And then we had to walk back and are still walking back some of the ways of how I got there. And that is valuable work and I appreciate. And my mother was a licensed clinical therapist. Oh, wow. Even though she's the subject of many of my sessions. But that's another session. Y' all get some mama trauma. You bring me back.

[Jade]

Okay, we've done it, but we can do it again. It's not a problem.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So she's a licensed clinical therapist. And so I understand that it's a very rigorous process. There's supervision and. And all the things. And licensure, provides accountability to an accrediting body. And it, in many ways, it should and does prevent harm. But in any profession, and everybody needs to know this, okay, there is always a professional ethos of shoulds. Okay, so doctors, medical doctors, do no harm, but are there doctors that do harm? Yes. Are there, you know, police officers? Serve and protect. Are there police officers that don't serve or protect?

[Jade]

That's the foundation of police. Don't get me going.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So there. So most professionals are. Are beholden to a. A professional ethos that should protect the people that they're serving from bad behavior and bad actors. But there's always going to be those in every industry. Now, coaching, on the other hand, is once you understand who you are, why you are, what happened to you, and the ways that it contributed to the way to how you're showing up in the world, the coach asked, so what do you want to do about that? And this is why, before I ever take on a client, I have a conversation with them so I can find out what's going on, because I'm not going to take your money. And what you're dealing with is out of my wheelhouse. First of all, it's unethical, but I don't have the tools, like, I don't have the tools to diagnose you. And some people who think they're ready for coaching, like, I just want to move forward with my life. I just want to. But then I sit down and I talk to them, and I'm like, you're not ready. So when you think about. I'll use a sports analogy. The thing is, when you think about, like, the starting five of, like, a basketball team or, you know, the starting players on a football team, those are players that got the playbook. They. They are ready to run the routes, they're ready to execute. Like, they are ready, like, give me the play and I'm ready for action. Okay. Results oriented because we try to win games, we trying to score goals. Right. But then you also have players who are on injured reserve, meaning I want to play, I want to support the team, I want to get out there on the field. But the injuries that I have right now are not going to allow me to get out on that court, get out on that field and execute those plays. And that's why I tell people I'm like, you would be better served through therapy and counseling. Because it would be unethical for me to say, okay, we've identified these obstacles, do this, this and that, and then I give you the tools and you're like, and now you're in your head and you can't. Or you're triggered, or, you know, you are back to a place that hasn't been unpacked and resolved yet. And so it's important that people understand those distinctions between coaching and counseling. And what. One of the things I tell people is that, you know, people that typically come to me for coaching. And that's the beauty, too. That's another beauty. Takiya, I think you said it. You have a therapist, but you also have a coach. Yeah, almost all of my clients have therapists. Almost all of my clients have therapists. And they're like, they work hand in hand. Okay. So it's like. And when you think about the way a medical institution is set up, so, you know, there's like, er, right? Like, okay, there's an emergent situation. This person is in crisis. There's a team for that. And then if you get admitted, because, like, okay, you need a little bit more time, you're not in the ER anymore. You have been handed off to another team. Okay, that can provide some additional support. And then when you get handed off to that team, either you are like, take, here's a prescription, and you know, follow this course of action. But sometimes you've been in that so long now, now you got to go to physical rehab. So then they hand you off to another set. And every one of these pieces serves a critical function in the healing and restoration of the process. But you can, but the physical rehab person can't do nothing for you in the er.

[Kia]

Right, right.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay. And. And the attending doctor that you get handed off to is not going to be able to help you in physical rehab because it's like, hey, that's not my. That's not my lane. And so when we're talking about these important distinctions in mental health and wellness and healing, it is important to understand who does what, because some people are practitioners and other people are scientists. So some people are actually face to face, boots on the ground, in the trenches, seeing clients. And some are like, no, I'm just writing research about it.

[Jade]

Yeah. And both, and both are very necessary.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And both are very necessary. And so their work informs one another. And. But this, but when you're talking about public health, okay, because even though I'm a content creator, I make sure not to use diagnostic language. So. And, and people have a tendency to do that. And it kind of makes my eye switch a little bit. I'm like, you know, because.

[Jade]

So that's my next question.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah, no, because people start using terms that they don't fully understand. And, and what's really dangerous about it is that people start prematurely self diagnosing. Oh, I'm neurospicy. I'm like, I'm like, first of all, that is. I hate. That is a sociological term. First of all, neurodivergence came out of the sociological camp. Okay? That is, that is straight out of the social sciences. It's not even a clinical diagnosis in the dsm.

[Kia]

It's not. Okay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And then narcissism was one of those like, oh, yep, they're a narcissist. Pause. Some people that think they have ADHD without diagnosis, it's like, maybe that's digital addiction. And sometimes people use pathology to justify behavior.

[Kia]

That.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And it seems, because here's the thing saying that I'm digitally addicted to my phone or that I can't stop scrolling it sound. Addiction carries a stigma that pathology does not. It's like, oh, well, due to my diagnosis, this is why I'm not able to, you know, engage in that work of healthy human engagement. But too often, because we're also seeing this too, people look for Labels to justify.

[Jade]

It's like, well, labels and echo chambers of people that just regurgitate the same shit that they're putting out.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Excuse me. Yeah, so it's like, oh, well, see, if it hadn't been for my insert diagnosis, then I wouldn't have done my insert deplorable behavior. And so, you know, and I'm like, no, that's not how this works, okay? Because explanation is not absolution, honey. It is a lens for understanding and process, okay? And naming. But it is not a permission slip or a permission structure to just hurt people with impunity. That's not how this works.

[Jade]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's not an excuse. You know, you mentioned something that I wanted to clarify. Talk about for a second. You talked about all the different departments within the hospital that aid into this particular healing for this patient.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

And all of those are very important, and they all play their very individual roles. And what stood out to me is that all of these people are credentialed experience and learned within these particular roles in this greater field.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

I don't know much about algebra, but I, you know, I know Dr. Raquel. I trust Dr. Raquel. I know that she has done her work educationally. She has gotten the credentials that she needs to be qualified to do the work that she does. And I saw all of this conversation around colorism, within which we know is a thing within many, many areas of us as a people. But also, I don't really know nothing about this other lady like that. So I think this is a very long way of me asking you, what's the educational process? I know what a therapist got to do. I know what a psychiatrist got to do. I know what all these people have to do. What's the difference over here? So that, you know, can anybody just jump up and be like, all right, I'm your coach now and I'm gonna help you? Can you. Can you go a little further into

[Dr. Shante Holly]

what I'm trying to ask?

[Kia]

So

[Dr. Shante Holly]

not all. Not all programs are created equally. And, oh, I work in education, so I can't name names. I will. I will say that there are some. Academic institutions. That's what I'll say. There are some quote unquote, academic institutions that are known to be degree factories, which means you're not earning a degree, you're buying one. That. That you are just checking boxes and that. That education is a product that you have purchased so that you can say that you have a piece of paper. However, the rigor, the. The Depth. The. The people that they have teaching the classes. Okay, I'm just. Okay, so there's that. And likewise, coaching programs. Coaching programs do not have a. A regulating body in the same way that, you know, the American Medical association or the American Psychological association or even. Because I have an English degree. So even the Modern Language Academy, we have a governing body. Life coaching doesn't work like that. However, okay, there are adult education accrediting bodies and somebody that wants their. Their life coaching program because, you know, kind of like, teach the teachers. So anybody who wants their life coaching program to be accredited through one of those accrediting bodies of adult education saying, like, hey, this meets the. The criteria for. Because you know how people get. What do you call CEUs and PDUs and things like that? Well, those have to be. They have to go through a. A body of accreditation. You can't just say, oh, I watched a webinar, go ahead and give me my credits.

[Jade]

No, those things have to be YouTubersary, all that kind of stuff.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Girl, I have a pink tambourine over here. Don't make me grab my pink tambourine.

[Jade]

Please do

[Dr. Shante Holly]

your tambourine hour documentary on YouTubers. And now, like, no, there are a catalog of courses and programs that have been vetted through, like, the Adult Council of Education and say, okay, this qualifies. This meets the professional qualifications within this framework. And those coaching programs, I would say, are better or would certainly provide greater depth and breadth and some sense of like, okay, this wasn't whipped together by people. So when people ask for my credentials, I'd be like, because let me run and get my trauma certification from DePaul University. Let me go and get my degree from National Lewis University. Okay? And let me. And the coaching program that I did was also accredited. So, yes, yeah, you, I would say, do your due diligence. Just in the same way that higher education has accrediting bodies, I would say anybody who wants to do life coaching should go through an accredited program, which means that a. A. So there's something in academia called peer review. So teach us now. I write on substack, okay? And quite frankly, whips hair. I've done some of my best writing on substack. At the same time, the substack audience is not the academic audience. So when I'm writing research papers, I'm using different language, I'm supporting my arguments with different authors and other researchers, and it shows a depth of breadth. And when I want to get published in academic journals. So when I've gone for publication and Academic journals that goes through a blind review process. So the way I became a Fulbright finalist is they took my name off of it and they just read the work, they interrogated the work and they said this work has enough depth, rigor, scope, relevance to, to add value to the field. And so that. Okay. Is a totally different process. And so think about when you're going for, for a certification in life coaching. It's like, okay, go for one that's been peer reviewed. Okay, go for one that has been vetted through an independent body and says that this meets a set of criteria that will allow people to provide value to the public in this way. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[Jade]

Okay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay.

[Jade]

Yes, absolutely.

[Kia]

And those criteria are for not only quality, but also safety, right?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes, absolutely.

[Jade]

It's like going in a Chinese restaurant. Oh yeah. This authentic. This.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Be honest with you, the po. And no tea, no shade, no pink lemonade. But the, the podcaster to Grifter pipeline is real. People build these massive audiences, learn a few buzzwords, a little pseudoscience, attachment styles. So things that they kind of borrow from legitimate components of the research but really haven't done the work. And then next thing you know, they writing books and I'm, and selling programs and I'm just like.

[Jade]

And doing retreats.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Doing retreats.

[Jade]

Sitting in a, in a button up looking in the corner of their room, acting like they're talking to somebody, but they're not. Like it's, it's very, it's infuriating and it's dangerous and it's manipulative.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Jade]

And it's harmful.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Jade]

To us as a community. And I'm, and I feel like I've watched it ramp up over years and I'm like, yeah, girl, this is not my field. But this sounds like. To me. But there are people that. It doesn't sound like that too. And they're, and they're taking, they're taking the bait.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

But you know, and I just.

[Jade]

It.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So this is. Oh, now we really get into my wheelhouse. Okay, so what my doctor, what my doctoral degree specifically states studies is the ways in which the American public or the way that, that. And we could apply this to other countries, but specifically the way that the American public, the way that curricula is used to either liberate or oppress people. And the purpose of American schooling has never been education. It has always been indoctrination. That's why when you were the kid that was raising your hand in class and oh, I got a question. Oh, I got a question. And the church does this too. You can't ask no questions. You just got to hear and have faith and lean on the Lord, okay? And so basically, when people have had the curiosity stamped out of them, beat out of them, and don't ask questions, just go along to get along, and it becomes the unquestioned acceptance of the status quo. That is called hegemony. It is a tool of oppression. And so the American public has really been groomed from a very young age to just kind of accept. Accept things that sound good and popular and. Okay, and, and. And I'm not being a hater, okay? Like, far be it for me to knock the hustle, okay? Get your bag. However the mean, the means by which you get said bag matters, okay? The means by which you get said bag matters. And the thing is, And I haven't gotten deep into the weeds of the. The controversy around Cheyenne Bryant, but somebody. I did read a comment where somebody made a really good point. They're like, hey, people use the, the. The doctor nomenclature all the time. Like Dr. Dre, you know, or, you know, Dr. Phil, you.

[Jade]

I think he is Dr. Bronner.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Dr. Bronner. There we go.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

You know what I'm saying?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Exactly. And so it's like, if that's what you wanted to do, you could have framed it that way. But the thing is, is that when you get into a. Now let me tell you something. When you get into a room full of academics, when you get into a room full of researchers, okay, Research is about. Hear me, receipts. Research is about evidence. That's it.

[Jade]

Oh, hello. That's what it is.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's why they call it the social sciences. That's why they, you know, so anytime that you are. Are saying that you are a. A student of the science, says, listen, the academic process has trained you. If you've gone through the training, has trained you for evidentiary receipts, protocol and procedure. And so when somebody ask, especially if. If you are using your credentials or your professional status to say, this is what qualifies me to give this information, and. And then you don't produce it,

[Jade]

then what are you doing?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

What are you doing here? Fraud, you know, that's why I just ask questions. I'm like, what are you doing?

[Kia]

Receipts, Receipts, Receipts. Evidence. Because it's about demonstrating expertise, not just, you know, displaying. You know what I'm saying? It's not just saying, I know, but you have to prove. You have to substantiate. That is why when we, you know, the thing that makes us. You have to defend Your position like that. That's why they call it a defense, because you have, you know, you know, your credibility, your credence has to be on display.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Otherwise even that is a peer review process, because. Absolutely. People don't.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So for people who don't know, and. And different programs differ, but by and large, okay, so I'm painting with a broad brush here. When you get a master's degree, it is a very kind of, like, straightforward curriculum. Take the classes, do whatever the capstone project is, get your degree, and off you go. But doctoral. Oh, baby, no. There's a committee, and there's a committee along that is peer reviewed. Okay? These are people that already have the credential saying, we are going to determine whether or not you deserve the credential, whether or not your work is worthy of the credential, whether you are. Whether your work is worthy enough to sit on this side of the table. And so anybody who has been through that process, it's like, hell, yeah. You know, like when Dr. Jill Biden, she's like, that's Dr. Jill Biden. And people were like, I said, girl, yes, friend, I. I get it, okay? Because you worked for that, you earned that. And, and you were peer reviewed by a. A peer, peers in your profession that said, yes, this meets the standard. And more than that, more than that, let me tell you something I learned with friends and family a long time ago. You can't recommend everybody for a job. Now. You can't give everybody hell.

[Jade]

No. You be out here making me look crazy. There it is.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I have to put my name exactly next to your name.

[Kia]

Exactly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So if I can't stand 10 toes down on what you doing, I'm gonna be like, look, period. Exactly.

[Kia]

It's very telling. Because, you know, in the case, if I'm not mistaken, in the case of Cheyenne Bryant, you know, it. It has been said that the person who was her advisor came out and. And was confirmed that there were certain activities that did not happen because their credibility was on the line. You see what I'm saying? I have, and I'm sure. I feel like my advisor, my doctoral chair, was a black woman, thank God. And I remember the time, like, she made it very clear to me. We were in the throes of that process, and she sat me down and she said, I'm doing this. It felt like hazing, because it was.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

It does feel like that because I went some rounds with my chair too. I'm like, okay. It feels like hazing.

[Kia]

As if she was very direct and stern. With her feedback and because there was a level of quality that needed to be represented in the work. And she said to me very plainly, she was like, you know who else's name is on your dissertation? Mine. So it's not going to be no, exactly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You understand your committee has to sign off on it. Everybody has to write their name. And I'm telling you, this is like, go read the crucible. Like John Proctor. That was the issue. He was like, I ain't writing my name because it's my name, period. You know, if you go indict me unfairly, then okay, you can indict me unfairly. But you know how when they, when they terminate your employment, they be like, sign here. A lot of people be like, I ain't signing that. I'm not putting my name on that. And so when you talk about these credentials and this rigorous vetting, other people have, have had to endorse your work. And that is a process to be proud of. And so, yeah, anybody who, even at a bare minimum, what is your super long dissertation name? Because everybody remembers their super long dissertation name. If you can't even produce that, it does raise questions. That's all I can say. It raises questions.

[Kia]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

Just make sure we protect each other.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

Welcome to the history books.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Kia]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Kia]

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[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Kia]

your first purchase at k18hair.com with Code Podcast. That's Code [e-mail] and speaking of questions, I love that your work is grounded in the exercise of critical inquiry because to me that is, you know, core to not only, you know, helping us learn, but helping us change our practice.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Kia]

And I also love that you use that medical analogy a bit back because I think trauma. So I think when I my coach also explained to me that, you know, it wasn't just add like, you know, she also helped me to understand the way that I was sort of dealing with PTSD and what that means and how the trauma has rewired my brain and you know, you know, you know, that is why, you know, I function in certain ways. I want you to talk a little bit more about this. This like what trauma is. And, and because I think that's another one of the words that's thrown about the Internet.

[Jade]

Oh my God.

[Kia]

And that. But it's a very real thing. And so recently you Know, I've been learning more about exactly what it is and exactly what it's not.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So.

[Kia]

So if you could just spend a little time helping us to sort of make that distinction as well.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Trauma, three E's. Okay. So. And I love to give this example. So trauma breaks down like this. Event, experience and effects. Those are the three E's. Event, experience, and effects. So what's trauma and what's not trauma? Here's the example I use. Let's take a brother and sister. You know, kids are always playing, and more times than not, they play too much. Okay, so say big brother decides, ooh, I'm gonna hide in this closet, and I'm gonna scare my sister when she walk past. I'm gonna jump out the closet. So big brother goes to hide in the closet, and when little sister walk past, he jumps out and scares the daylights out of her. That was the event. Then it's her experience. So how did she experience that? She was scared out of her wits. And then like most kids, I'm telling mom and daddy on you, and so they run off, you know, to tell mom and Daddy. Now, if mom and daddy are dressing and black now, you know, you didn't have no business. Leave your sister alone. Go outside to play. For a lot of people, it was an unfortunate event. You know, it was an uncomfortable experience. But if that's where it ends and where it lands, you know, it's relatively no harm, no foul. It was a prank. But if the next time little sister walks past the closet or gets close to the closet, and now she starts hyperventilating, she's breathing hard, her chest is palpitating, and things like that. See, now we have a lingering effect. And it's the lingering effect, okay, long after the event has passed, long after you have experienced it, it is what stays with you. Yeah, that now. So now instead of sister walking past the closet, now she goes over the river and through the woods. She goes a whole different way. She goes out the front door and comes back through the. The screen door in the kitchen so that she doesn't have to walk past the closet.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Now we're getting into trauma because now it has lingered beyond. And so a lot of times when we see people that are doing things that we feel are atypical or out of the main. And we won't say what's wrong with you. I love the book what happened to you? By Dr. Bruce Perry. Because that's really the question. It's like, what happened to you? And it's those Residual effects. So this is really the bedrock of my work, is that I call it the ABCs of trauma. And it breaks down like this. Adversity, beliefs and choices. And so adversity ain't no getting around it. I mean, we've all been through something and, you know, if you haven't, as my granny would say, keep living, okay? Just keep living. Eventually you're going to run into something, right? But here's where people get tripped up, okay? It is in the beliefs because we are able to assign, and we do, we assign meaning to our circumstances. And so your adversity might be neglect. Your father left you, didn't want to have nothing to do with you. You know, papa was a rolling stone. That was an adversity. But what did you make that mean? Yes, and what you may, as some people, make that mean, I'm not enough. I'm not worthy. Even your own father didn't want you. So I'm unwanted, I'm unlovable, I'm unworthy. If that is your belief system, that is your operating system, you will subsequently make choices based on your beliefs. Because I tell people all the time, behavior always betrays beliefs. I don't care what you say. You, you could get on the Internet on these interwebs and be like, I'm the baddest. I'm the boss. I'm, you know, high value. God, I hate that term. You know, high value.

[Jade]

Who's low value?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

But when I, when I check your phone, okay, you still stalking your ex?

[Jade]

Is you still checking phones when they sleep?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Hello? Somebody? Okay, so behavior always betrays beliefs. And so when we make. And so our adversity forms a set of beliefs, and then that subsequent set of beliefs, we're making choices. So imagine the way that that shapes your life. If you believe that you are unlovable, unworthy and not enough, what kind of spouse do you think you're going to be choosing? And what types of things are you going to be doing in that relationship to try to prove and perform and that sort of thing. And so I'm like, this is, this is where you start to recognize, like, hold up, how did I get here? And I say a lot of times we always like to talk about the seed, the bad seed, or the things that people did. I said, but we also need to talk about the soil. That's where the sociology of it comes in. It's like, where were you grown? Okay, Because I. All three of us can have the same sweet potato pie recipe, okay? And relative same ingredients, but it's like, did you use a convection oven? Did I use a fire oven? Like, like all of that matters. The context.

[Jade]

Yes, matters.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

And so because even where you sourced your sweet potatoes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Where did you source your sweet potatoes? Okay. Did you use organic eggs or did you use, you know, the cheapest one? Because in this economy, I mean, I can't, I can't blame you. But at the same time, I think, I think we could say the quality of the ingredients matters, the sourcing of the ingredients matters, and it's going to have a different outcome, it's going to have a different result. And so a lot of times we like to use this one size fit all. And I'm like, no, I need to find out what kind of soil you came out of so that I can understand the, these components that are playing out in your life right now. Does that make sense?

[Jade]

Absolutely. I love that analogy. Do you feel like, so you obviously do this within your work. Do you feel like that's also done within therapy? Like, it sounds like it's two different vehicles. So I think I, I.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So there are multiple approaches to therapy. And so, and actually, and believe it or not, I have a lot, I actually have a lot of therapists that follow my, my platform. They're like, I'm using this with my, My client is coming in. I'm using this exact video right here.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So I will, will never forget the therapist who taught me about radical acceptance. And I said, this is so good. This is, this is exactly what, what distinguishes me as a coach. Right? And so we live in Chicago. Chicago has beautiful lake and we also have a beautiful river. Okay. So come check this out sometime. Especially in the summertime, but.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

The food.

[Kia]

Sorry.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes, it is. Okay, so let's say, you know, you are. And, and New York has Hudson River. Okay? So let's just say you're on the Riverwalk, right? You're walking by the pier. It's a beautiful day, and somebody riding their bike zooms past you, not paying attention and knocks you into the river. Adversity, right? Like this thing happened to me. And so now you are in the water. Oh, my God. I can't believe it. They didn't even say, excuse me. They didn't even stop to help. My clothes are ruined. My hair is wet. These were new shoes and all of that. So all of that is legit. All of that is legit. You didn't deserve it. They weren't, they. You were wronged. Okay? You were the injured party. Unfortunately, some people get stuck right there. And you know, people and have known people that have spent years talking about an injury, because that's what trauma is. It's an injury, okay? And they have spent years being right about being wronged. But radical acceptance, you know, which comes out of behavioral therapy from the therapist perspective is like, okay, that did happen, and it was unfortunate, and it is painful.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

But do you want to get out of the water? Like, do you get to the shore? Okay? And that's where it's almost like where therapy and coaching kind of just like beautifully kind of like harmonizing and hand in hand, because we can spend as much time as you need talking about somebody bumped you in the water and how you ruined your shoes, okay? Ain't nobody dismissing that, because you absolutely right. At the same time, the fact that you're still in the water is keeping you from getting dry. It's keeping you from your life. It's keeping you from your relationships. It's keeping you from moving on. It's keeping you from turning the page. And so when you are ready to turn the page, and some people aren't ready to turn the page, some people are still in the river and are talking about, you know, and so this is where different types of therapy come in, because some people are like. Like cptsd. One of the. The unfortunate symptoms of CPTSD can be rumination. They're like, I don't want to be thinking about this. I want to move on. I would like to, you know, close this chapter and just get on with it. And so then that's when a therapist is like, you know, well, maybe EMDR might be an option for you as where they start. Dig their clinical bag of training and say, here are some multiple ways that we can approach this that might help you be able to get out of the water and get out of the river. And so, yeah, they're not the same, but they definitely work hand in hand. Because if you also think about the river example right now, if you've been in that river as much as that time, chances are, hopefully somebody called the paramedics, because, baby, when you get out prayerfully, you gonna need some support. Okay? You gonna need some help. You're gonna need.

[Jade]

Especially the Hudson.

[Kia]

You might have.

[Jade]

So you come out with a.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You might come out with, you know, Made the situation worse because, you know, before you. Before the thing happened, okay, it was this. But then the thing happened, and. And not only was that disruptive, but depending on how long you had to spend in that water, yeah, that has some impact as well. And so, yeah, therapy and. And the coaching is like, you know, go hand in hand. Now, granted, that is. That is, hopefully anybody that gets into the water is just going to be eager to get out, you know, but. But the point is, is that some people are not there yet. Because when I talk about adversity, beliefs and choices, sometimes if you stay too long in those beliefs, those beliefs become truths. And a lot of people think that, well, this is just my personality. So show of hands. How many of you know somebody that would be known in your friend group or family group as the strong one or the fixer? Right. You say, so there's the strong one, there's the fixer, there's the solo act. Okay. Right.

[Kia]

So.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And then you have people that's the solo act, like, nah, I got it. I don't need nobody. I'm not asking anybody for help or whatever. And people think that that's just who they are. They think these are personality traits. And I'm like, but are they. Are those survival adaptations that have. That you've been. That have calcified, that have now become concrete? And this is who you think you are. And it's not necessarily who you are. It might be just what you did to survive the circumstances you were in. And now that you are out of those circumstances, you don't know how else to be.

[Kia]

Yeah. And you don't realize that you can, like, you feel like this is a part of who you are. And it's like, I'm just that way. And it's like, no, beloved,

[Dr. Shante Holly]

you don't have to be that way. You don't have to be that way. You don't have to be.

[Jade]

It's like corns. Corns on your feet.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Feet.

[Jade]

But it's like on your soul.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You can't remove that.

[Jade]

You can't.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You don't have to walk without pain. And I think the key to that is to start being curious. So this is where the actual researcher comes in, Right. It's like, what if I didn't run to the rescue all the time? What if I actually let my guard down for two seconds and just let somebody be there for me without feeling like I owed them something in return? What? Yeah, you know, it's like, what. How about we be curious about the possibilities for moving beyond our. Our. What we consider personality traits is like, what if this isn't really who I am? What if this is just what I've been doing in order to survive the circumstances that I'm in? And another example. So the. The full Bright work, right? So here's how that comes in. And I am so, so grateful that I had this experience. So I got released for sabatical do research in Portugal, interviewing black people, black Americans who had immigrated to Portugal, who said, I'm done with this. I'm seeking residency in another country.

[Kia]

Wow.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

When I tell you, Lisbon, Lisboa Porto.

[Jade]

Yes. I get a job too. Oh, I can. Can't wait. Okay. I'm sorry.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Highly recommend. Highly recommend.

[Jade]

Oh, cuz.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Lisbon, what they all said in the research that I did was that they were not the same people that they were in the United States.

[Kia]

Why?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Because United States, they felt like the ha. Any vigilant, any minute now, the hammer is going to drop. Any minute now, I can be hashtag Shante Holly. Any minute now, it could be justice for me. And they said I can't. And even though people are so quick to say, but racism is global. American racism is unique and specific. It's different black Americans, okay? That's a different type of racism that we don't even have time on this podcast to unpack. But the point is the survival adaptations. The way that they thought that they were, that's only who they were in the US because when they got to a place of safety, when they got to a place where they could walk into someplace and not be proud, profiled, when they could gather, two or three could be gathered without somebody rolling up, what you doing? What's going on here? All of a sudden they realize, wow, I didn't. I didn't know that I could be this free. I didn't know that I could have this set of calm. I took my child over there, and she struggles with anxiety. And we were over there for maybe three or four days. About the fourth day, she said, look, mom. And she held up her hand, which normally is tripped. It's shakes. Okay? It was solid as a rock. It was the most solid it had been in years because she was like Ashford and Sims.

[Jade]

Ah, solid. I love that. For her nervous system.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And she didn't realize the way that her nervous system was being reset and it was being regulated in a place of safety where, you know, imagine living in a country without MAGA Jesus, without

[Jade]

school shootings, without

[Dr. Shante Holly]

she. So at that time, she was a sophomore in high school, and yeah, they were doing active shooter drills.

[Kia]

Imagine mercy.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And so you have to think about the soil that you're in, and it might be that the soil that you're in has turned into these survival adaptations that you think are your personality. But imagine who you could be start to get curious about who you could be if you were in different soil, literally and figuratively.

[Jade]

Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to stay where you at. You don't have to stay in the muck, in the Maya.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You don't have to be in that bad relationship.

[Jade]

You know, it's hard to climb out of it when you don't have the tools. And so it sounds like coaching is where obviously we get our tools from therapy. It sounds like coaching really helps you, though. It's like training, like, you know, like working with a trainer is like we doing, like, we moving these muscles. We figuring out the ways to. To shift this.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah. Because I tell everybody, especially coming out of therapy, I said, everybody's healed when you not in the field. Okay. Let me tell you something. Your. Your therapist can give you books and you can watch videos and you can have literature. Okay. And brochures. Go to a few sessions, and then it's like, okay, get back in the dating pool. And it's like, never mind.

[Kia]

I'm out of here.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah. You know, like, you. If you sprain your ankle and then, you know, you go through all the work of rehabbing it because, you know, you sprained it while you was out jogging, you're not going to know if your ankle is really back up to snuff until you get back out there on the track. Okay. So everybody's healed when you're not in the field. And that's where I come in. I'm like, come on, let's get you back on the field.

[Kia]

Let's get you back on the track.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay. So we can get you back in the race.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

How you.

[Jade]

I don't want you to reveal. You can't. I don't even want that for you to be revealing stuff about your clients. But I do have a question.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Sure.

[Jade]

Age ranges. How old is your oldest client?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

My oldest client is 72. My youngest client is 24.

[Jade]

So. And I'm sure you're. How are your approaches different within those? Different. Because we've had such a different life experience. I ask because, you know, I have family members that are older. They're exploring therapy just now in their six 60s, you know, and then I'm recognizing that other family members are like, yeah, that's cool. I need somebody to help me to move, though. Still in their 60s. So I. I think I just kind of want to understand your approach when you're dealing with that particular age bracket that might be having a hard time with movement from different. Different traumas.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

From different traumas. So I have had clients, older clients, that have. Because one of the insidious ways that we don't realize trauma kind of can conceive in is through social messaging. I have had clients that have said, I didn't know I had another choice. I didn't know that I didn't have to get married. I didn't know that I didn't have to have kids. Okay. And of course, they kind of. They and it. And they struggle to even say that because they almost feel a little bit of guilt. Like, it's not that I don't love my kids, because I love my kids, but, yeah, I didn't know that I had other choices. And the reason why they didn't know they had other choices is because the soil that they came up in said, you better. It was their conditioning. It was their social conditioning that made them believe that these were the only options on the menu. And so, like, I would remember, not that I frequent them, because I feel like it's too expensive, and I don't think that the ingredients are great. But I remember when I first heard about the secret Starbucks menu, I was like, what is this? That they were like, oh, you can get these drinks. They're not on the menu, but, like, if you ask for this, that, and the third, you can get this. I said, huh? And a lot of people have had that experience. They're like, there were m. There were options available that I did not even know existed. And so a lot of them that are struggling with movement, I'm like, okay, let's look at. At where that has taken you. Okay? And. And what that has been. And if you had to go back, would you have made different choices? Where would those. Where would you have made those different choices? And it is also getting them to the place where it's like, here. Oh, my gosh. Is. Are we recording video, or is this purely audio? Both. Okay. I'm sorry. For the audio people. This is. This is the video people. This is. I use this with my clients all the time. Okay. So what I'm holding up right now is a diagram of a circle that has three dimensions. So three pie slices. Career, family, and love. And love takes up half the pie because a lot of people were raised that way. I need to get a job, and then I'm going to find the love of my life, and then I'm going to have kids, and that's life. That is. That was the script. That was the soil. That was the pinnacle of the human experience, was to get Those three pie slices. And then a lot of my clients come to me in their 40s, 50s, and 60s and say, okay, I got the pie slices and this ain't it. Which is where I bring in the other diagram, which has career and friends and family and travel and volunteerism and support and hobbies and interests and being this self possessed person that has a whole lot of slices in the pie, because these were dimensions of themselves that they never developed and were not, did not feel free to explore. And so sometimes it's not even just about moving forward. I'm like, how about we go into a. A journey of discovery?

[Kia]

Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

What do you like? Okay.

[Kia]

And.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And what sparks your interest? And so it's actually really exciting to be able to rediscover yourself at that age. And I have friends who are in their 60s. Let me tell you something. I thought it happened at 40, because 40, you start giving less,

[Jade]

I'll say, okay, no worries. But when you get to 60, maybe

[Dr. Shante Holly]

you on your last two or three, you like, God bless the world.

[Jade]

When I get to snap and people

[Dr. Shante Holly]

just gotta get in where they fit in, you gonna get it how I give it. And they're like, look, I'm ready now and my kids are grown and I'm ready to explore different dimensions of my life. Because you start looking at what Dion. Cole. Cole calls when you have more yesterdays than tomorrows, when you got about 20 summers left, you'd be like, you know what? Yeah, let me be a little bit judicious about how I spend this time, you know, and so I'm actually excited for this, for my clients that are at that age and just see how the light comes back into their eyes once they realize there's more options on the menu that they did not explore.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Oh, my gosh, that's so beautiful. I can't wait to share that. No, I can't wait to share that.

[Kia]

And I love that you one of them. One of my. One of my values, because I tried to have like a value a year, like something that I like, focus on. Like, and my. One of my values for this year is self possession, like, and. And that. That self discovery, like, rec. Like leaning in with curiosity, asking questions and getting clear or really super clear about who I am, not who other people tell me how they see me, but knowing like that for myself. And it is this journey. And I'm glad we talked about this, like, in this generation, because I feel like when you talk about that soil, like the generational soil is very different. Yes. And so we're going to have actually a bit of, I want to say a spoiler alert, but we're going to have Dr. Anita Phillips on in a couple of weeks to talk about mother wounds. Yeah, I heard her.

[Jade]

You want to come back?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Mama trauma. I'm like, hold on.

[Kia]

Exactly. I heard her speak about that a couple years ago at a conference and it really just peeled my muffin cat back blue. But I would say that my own experience, me and my mom are in different places and sometimes communicating across that divide has been challenging. Right. And we're, and I think we're trying to find the tools and the language to maintain connection, even though we have different perspectives. And I love the, the pie slices because. Yeah, that's real. That resonated because I really feel like there are times, ways in which I don't think my mom, my mom looks at me and, and sometimes I'm like, she didn't know that she could not, like, you know, even your grandma. Exactly.

[Jade]

Even when your grandma, her grandma told her. Yeah, Dr. Shantay. That she, she was like, you got a black couch.

[Kia]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jade]

I never thought you had to choose your own.

[Kia]

Yeah, I bought my house in 2020 and my first house and so was like, I couldn't afford a couch. And so I was like, you know, it took me a few months to save the money for the couch that I wanted. And when I bought it, it was black velvet. And my grandma was so impressed with that. And in talking to her, she was like, I didn't know that you could have a black couch. And she was like, what? What? She said, I've never bought a couch by myself. And I was like, what you mean, grandma? Like, we've had all these houses. She was like, I never. Because my grandparents got married when My grandma was 21 and my grandfather was 20. And so there were couches that I wanted, but we always had to get the couch that he wanted or like, you know, the couch that. So she said the fact that you as like watching you buy this house by yourself and fill it up with stuff that you want is. Was something that like, like, it's like

[Dr. Shante Holly]

being a first generation college student. Like. Exactly.

[Jade]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kia]

And so there are things like my mom came to see me for the first time. She was like, look at you just moving around here making decisions.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And it was like, you just, you

[Kia]

don't even have to ask nobody.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You just doing what you want.

[Kia]

Like, just like, like. But it is weird to experience that because there are ways. It's like, wow, it's like we won't be able. There are times where I want to talk to her about it, but we don't have that. We can't relate at that level. But there are also ways in which it gives me perspective and it helps me to see her as a woman and not just my mom. And it gives me context for like, oh, my God, no matter. No wonder that lady used to sit in the driveway in the dark and not like my mom outside for like 30 minutes. And me and my brother would be like, girl, when you coming in the house? But now I get it. It's like, girl, I don't need to talk to nobody. Please don't ask me nothing. But I. I wanted. I know that you and your content and in your work, you have opened up about how your own experience of aging and evolving in, you know, in the way that all of us are. Right. And just getting this newer, newer season. So what is it like? I'm just wondering in terms of, like, the work that you do and the ways that you help your clients and the ways that you help your community that you've built. And in many respects, I would imagine that you are often managing the same. Some of the same challenges or some of the same experiences. So, like, what is the way in which you find a balance or, you

[Dr. Shante Holly]

know, how do you manage that?

[Kia]

I guess so.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I love boundaries. And boundaries are not walls like people think. People think boundaries are. Talk to the hand. You know, I don't. I don't rock with you no more. And that sort of thing.

[Jade]

Another missing word.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

It. It can be that, but that's. I wouldn't define it is that, you know, a boundary is an. Is an understanding that. That keeps me in relationship with you. And so my mother, God rest her soul, she died two years ago. That woman never had a passport. So when I popped up to celebrate. So when I got. First of all, I was the first black woman at my college to earn the rank of full professor. Okay.

[Jade]

Yes. Period.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

About 10 years ago. And I was like, you know what? Because I'm the type of person, you know, you check the box and you move on. I said, no, I'm a celebrate myself this time. I'm actually going to, like, do something. And so I booked a solo trip to London and my whole family was frothing at the, like, breakdown. Not only did nobody had passports and then you going in their mind, you went overseas when you got deployed from the military. Okay. Like, you didn't. Just a woman leaving the American shore. Absolutely. To Go by herself to go gallivant to go Galavantin across the Atlantic. Okay. Like, what are you? Who you think you are. And so. And what that looks like for a lot of families when you are diverging from what is expected, because families don't always have the language of emotional fluency. Here we come. With weaponized guilt and shame. Well, you know, your grandma gonna be worried about you. Well, you know, and that sort of thing and boundaries for me is if you have ever been to the airport. Now I'm a carry on girly. But every now and then, you know, you get stuck at the baggage claim because it just ain't no way around it, okay? But when you are at the baggage claim and you're waiting for the bags to come around, sometimes you see a bag off kind of in the distance of the carousel, and you be like, oh, that's my bag. But then. And you go to reach for it, and you're like, oh, that's not my bag. Okay? And then you sit back and wait for your actual bag so you can roll on and continue with your trip. I think a lot of times we stand at the conveyor belt of life, reaching for other people's bags and pulling them off the belt. And it's like, but that's not your bag. Like, that's my job to manage your emotions, okay? It's not my job to manage your happiness. It's not my job to make you feel. Those are your feelings. That is your bag. And so you get it off the conveyor belt, and you do with the contents what you wish. I'm gonna wait for what belongs to me, and I'm gonna wheel off and enjoy my trip. And I think a lot of times, again, depending on the soil that you were raised in, you think that it's your job to make your family happy. And something that I learned through my own journey of motherhood. I said that I could only. I have a child.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I realized it was two weeks old. I said, I can only do this one time, okay? And during those high school years, which I. You couldn't pay me to go back to girls again. But that's where I had to have my own reckoning, where I said, okay, your child came through you, but she does not belong to you.

[Kia]

To you.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And that was a real shift because I had. I was ready to deposit the conditioning. Right? Like, and shape her life in the ways that I thought would be appropriate. And it was like, that's her life. Yeah. What's. What is. What is the bag? On your carousel. Keep her safe, keep her loved, keep her fed, give her guidance, give her support. You know, that's your job. But who she becomes after you have done all that you, you know, know to do in good faith. If she decides she wants to do the ballet, then she's going to do the ballet. If she decides she wants to go into the Navy, she gonna go into the. That's her. That's not. That's her bag. That's not your bag. But a lot of times, depending on the soil that you're in, they'll even use child. They'll pull the scripture out on you, honor your mother and father. And it's like, wait a minute, how's me going across seas not honoring my parents? Like, what are you? I'm grown. I'm good and grown, okay? But so with my clients, you know, I help them. I use. Because I'm the analogy queen. As you can see, I don't probably dropped about stuff in this episode already, but I'm a visual learner. I'm like, I gotta see it in my mind's eye in order for it to make sense to me. And so I use these same types of analogies. I'm like, listen, okay, this is not. This doesn't belong to you, okay? And I have a sign that hangs on the. Of all of my videos, okay? It's a quote from Charles Dickens, from Jacob Marley. So if you are familiar with the story of Ebenezer Scrooge. Well, the first ghost that Scrooge sees is not the ghost of Christmas Past. The first ghost he sees is his old business partner, Jacob Marley. And Scrooge is like, how did you. What happened to you, man? And, you know, Marley is trying to warn him, like, brother, you about to go down this same route. And he says, but you were a good man of business, Jacob. Jacob said, mankind was my business, okay? Mankind was. Was what I should have been focused on. And I encourage people. I'm like, you need to read that story. Not just for holiday purposes, but think about the ghost of your future, okay? If you stay on this path of people pleasing, of, you know, performing, of jumping through hoops, of swallowing your true desires and minimizing what you really want and not having a voice in your own life. Fast forward 20 years. You good with that? What is that gonna look like for you? Because the thing is, as the coach, baby, all I can do is draw up the plays. You got to get out there on the field and run the route. And so I present it to you and Then you are always at the point of choice. Because, again, we experience adversity, we create a set of beliefs, and so we interrogate those beliefs in the coaching. And now you have an opportunity to make a different choice.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And that's how I navigate that. Because like I said at the top of the episode, behavior always betrays beliefs.

[Jade]

Yeah. Yeah. Every time. It always shows. Wow. That was. I have so many more questions. And I realized I was like, we've been talking for over hours. I'm writing a book. We have so much.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Give me back when my book is written. I would love to talk about it.

[Kia]

Hell yes.

[Jade]

You gotta let us know when it's ready.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

When you're ready. I'm tell my agent. I'm like, I already got a podcast interview. Hands up. Absolutely.

[Jade]

We love that this is such useful information, and it really is. It's very human. You know what I'm saying? It's well received, it's easy to take in, and we need a little bit more of that because everything feels so hard.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

These days, everything feels so hard. How are you, Dr. Shantay? I think that's going to be my last question for you personally. How are you? Because you're doing all this work with so many people who are carrying their own bags, and I know you allow them to do that, but we're still living in a really crazy world. So as somebody who is facilitating all of that, how are you doing? How are you taking care of yourself?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah, you know what? So that's a great question. And at the top of the year, I famously. I was like. Because I tried. I said, I'm not setting goals this year. I have tried for years to be the planner girly. I love planners. They're so cute and. And color coded. And I love the boxes and people that be. I be so envious of the planner girlies because they be dedicated to the cause and they carry it everywhere.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And after two weeks, it's an expensive notebook, and I've bought the tabs and the highlighters, and I just can't keep up with it. Like, my brain is not wired in that way. So this year, instead of setting goals, I created questions. Because that I can do. That is how my brain is wired. And so I created six questions. A few of them were, what rooms do I want to be in this year? What do I want to experience? Who do I want to be in connection with? And answering those questions has been a dream. Right. Because what do I want to experience? I'm like, I've Never been skiing. I want to go skiing. So I took myself skiing, and it was great. My grandma watched tennis from the tv, and she was a big fan from her couch. But in terms of, like, getting out there to the tournaments and things like that, I was like, I want to be there. I want to see it live, you know, be in the room where it happens, so to speak. And so I started taking myself to tennis tournaments. In other words, I am able to counterbalance. Joy is resistance for me. I'm like, I know. I know you are trying to break my soul. I know that you are trying to take my voting rights. I know that you are trying to diminish my reproductive health. I know that you're trying to take my health insurance. I know that you're cutting people's SNAP benefits. But you know what? I still have choice in how I navigate these circumstances. And so for me, those other pieces of my pie. Because I'm gonna be honest with you. As much as you love your family and as much as you love your partner, what Kendrick say is not enough. You know, it's not enough. Okay. You need some additional slices of the pie. Okay? Community support. And when you look at longitudinal studies, so people who study longevity, the blue zones, people who live to 100 plus, romantic love is not in the mix. It's not in the playbook. It is about social community, it's about friendship, and it is about activity, like having a sense of purpose and meaning for your life. It doesn't have anything to do with the playbook that we got handed down saying, this is what makes the life. Okay? So even the blue zone research says we need more than three slices in the pie. Okay? And so, because I am very intentional about making sure that those other pie slices. It's a wonderful life. It really is. It's a wonderful life. And the only thing my biggest area of growth and challenge right now is very much the perimenopause, because I'm looking at my estrogen. Like, did nobody tell you? Like, where have you gone? What are you doing?

[Kia]

Okay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Because I dare you.

[Jade]

She said, I'm carrying my bags, girl.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I will get up from this desk, and I will walk into a room with purpose and determination. And as soon as I get in there, I'm like, huh? And I have to retrace my steps. I'm like, oh, my Lord. Like, so that is my biggest shock, struggle. But just in terms of. Of everything else that's happening in the world, I am very clear at the baggage carousel. This is yours, and this Is mine.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So many gems, so many tools.

[Kia]

Yes. And I appreciate you again for, for being here. And we are going to have you back on the talk about your. A book whenever you. Whenever you want. I guess my last question. I want. I want you to talk to our audience. I think we've had some great conversation here today, and I would imagine that there are people who are thinking, I want to explore this. How do I go about. If I want to look into some coaching, if I. What are some. What is some thing that you would say to someone who is interested in exploring whether or not coaching may be for them? Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So actually I will. I will read this. And this is straight. Look at this. Hot off the press. Okay. So the book that I'm writing, I tell people, this is. This is how it is. This is how I determine, like, who is like, the great audience. I mean, the best audience for my book. I'm like, if you. So people who have done some work, because people have, they've, like, read books, they've listened to podcasts, they may have done some journaling. And I'm like, if you are able to. To look at your life with some degree of. Of honesty. Because in therapy and in coaching, if you're not willing to be.

[Kia]

Come on.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

To keep it a book.

[Kia]

Yeah. It's a waste of time. It's a waste of money.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay. It's waste time and money. It's like, okay, if you're not ready for prime time, then just. Okay.

[Jade]

Yeah. Because behavior always.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Behavior always betrays beliefs. Okay. And so, you know, if you are ready to. To look at your life with some honesty, with some curiosity and that you have enough stability where you are able to be challenged. Okay. Without it destabilizing your life. Okay. Because I've had conversations with clients and out of loyal. So this is what. And things like mama trauma and papa trauma come up and it's like, hmm. So when your mother didn't show up for you in that situation, how did you make sense of that? Okay. Like, how did you make sense of that? And sometimes it seems disloyal to say that because you know what it is, especially in our community, they did the best they could with what they had and what they knew at the time.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Said, be that as it may. Because, listen, I'm a big believer. I'm like, listen, be that as it may, reasons do not negate reality. Okay, If I say, I'm gonna pick you up from work at 3 o', clock, but there was a, A rollover crash and now all the streets are blocked up or what have you. That's a legitimate reason why I can't be there to pick you up at 3 o'. Clock. But does it negate the reality that you stuck at work, stranded? It does not. Okay? And so I, I. When you're ready to deal in reality, okay, I think that you are a great candidate for coaching. And when you're ready to move forward, okay, when you have like, you know what? I'm tired of reading chapter 15. We need to write some new chapters, okay? We need to. Or you looking at your pie slices and you be like, marty, mar love the kids, but mama need a life, okay? Mama needs some hobbies, interest. I need some time to cultivate myself because my daughter, she's so funny. So I am an empty nester and

[Kia]

praise him

[Dr. Shante Holly]

and my child. So, you know, when we check in her freshman year, it was so funny because her newfound friends, her college friends were like, is your mom sad that you're gone? Does your mom miss you? She said she looked at them. She said, my mama might not even be in the country right now, to be honest with you.

[Jade]

My mama,

[Dr. Shante Holly]

she catching flights, not feelings. Like when I see you, okay? Because I pulled up, I got her, I got her moved in, tucked in the mattress. I kissed her on both cheeks. Make good choices.

[Jade]

Yeah, that's right. Oh my God. That's what I text mine all the time.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

There you go.

[Jade]

Make good choices, you know, and off

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I go because I built out some pie slices, you know, and so if you're ready to build out some more slices to your pie, if you are willing to be curious about who you are, if there are parts of your personality where you're like, is this really who I am or is this just what I'm doing because I was in some disparate circumstances, I think that you are a great candidate for coaching. However, if you are still dealing with the lingering effects, because trauma is events, experience and effects, okay? And you are deep in trust issues and you are deep in anxiety and hyper vigilance and you are deep in performing and pleasing and in your family because you feel like that's what you have to do in order to keep your standing in the family, I'm going to route you to therapy and to counseling, okay? If, if you're talking about you want to harm yourself or others, I'm going to route you to, you know, if you saying I'm struggling to stay upright, like, I really don't know that I want to be here, I'm going to route you to counseling and therapy because that's an emergent situation and you are not a good candidate for coaching, you know, but again, once you get to the ER and you get some triage, you get some support and then you've had some additional stabilization support and now you ready for like rehab and you know, to get that ankle back out on the track, that's when you come and see a coach. Love that.

[Jade]

Love that has been so, so unbelievably helpful. So unbelievably helpful. And I know the audience is like, they're going to be thirsty for more because I personally thank you, Aud. So I can't wait for your book to come out.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Please tell the people everywhere they can find you and anything else you might want them to know.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

The best place to find me because the tech bros taught us all a lesson last year. So you remember, or maybe it was. Yeah, it was last January when TikTok suddenly went dark.

[Jade]

Yes, right.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Right before the new presidential administration came

[Jade]

in and all that little, that little scam.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That little happened. And I said, huh, because a lot of people, they built these massive platforms on, you know, on real estate that they don't. They build real estate on land they don't own. Right?

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And I said, so if you want to stay with me, become familiar with my writings because there's only so much you can get from one of my three minute videos, even though I do believe they are worthwhile. I think that the two best places to find me is either on my YouTube channel, so YouTube.com forward/ Dr. Shante, or on my substack, which is Dr. Shante.substack.com and that way if Instagram goes dark, if Meta catches an attitude, I still have ready access to you and we can stay connected.

[Kia]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

Will find all of that in the description box, so make sure you check that out. You can check out all things. Dr. Shante. Oh, we're so.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Thank you for sitting with us.

[Kia]

Yes, of course.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Thank you for having me. This was lovely. Are both of you a New York?

[Kia]

No, I'm in D.C. yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I'mma send my child to you in case she. I'm like, I have another resource for you. That's right, Absolutely.

[Jade]

Oh yeah. Higher education right here. The perfect person, if she come to New York, I'll cook for her. You know what I'm saying?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

She all about that life.

[Jade]

Okay, see this, this is what you have to do.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You have to build the auntie network. I'm telling you.

[Jade]

Exactly.

[Kia]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

And I'mma put particular type of auntie. I like to call myself a cigarette auntie.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay. You know, everybody needs one.

[Kia]

Everybody.

[Jade]

I'mma sit you down at 4 o' clock in the morning and have an honest conversation.

[Kia]

Yes. And I'm the auntie that you call if you need somebody to go up to the school and see what's happening. Listen.

[Jade]

Exactly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay.

[Kia]

Asking the questions and what is bullet points.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Like why. That's right. There we go.

[Kia]

I appreciate.

[Jade]

And I'm just going to go with bullets. But thank you all so much.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Thank you.

[Jade]

It's very true.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Thank you.

[Jade]

Make sure you all check out the description box. All things Dr. Shante. And stay tuned with us for our next segment. Paramount plus is now the home of all your BET favorites.

[Kia]

What?

[Jade]

Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

With all new episodes of Tyler Perry's Divorce Sisters you've always liked a little drama, plus a whole new world of movies like Gladiator 2. Now I will control an empire original series like the Shy.

[Jade]

Just make sure we protect each other

[Dr. Shante Holly]

in live sports like ufc.

[Jade]

Welcome to the history books.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

New home, same family. Your BET favorites are now on Paramount Plus. Subscribe now.

[Jade]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date? Oh, no.

[Jade]

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

We're married.

[Jade]

Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Jade]

Anyways, get a'@libertymutual.com or with your local agent. Liberty. Liberty.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Liberty. Liberty.

[Jade]

All right.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Thank you so much, Dr. Shantay. So good for that incredible kitchen table. We didn't even realize. We were just talking. Yapping talking. So we're gonna. She's gonna have to come back. And you all know she got a book coming out and I'm sure you want to read it as bad as I do.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

So I'm really excited for that. So thank you again to Dr. Shantae. To be continued.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Now we're gonna get back into our other favorite time of the year. And this episode being Holly and not jolly, is very fitting. So let's get into our graduation announcements. Yeah. All right. Our first announcement says Ayo, beautifully brilliant chef Jada. Dr. Kia. My name is Nia. I. I love them so much. I am a newly 29 May Taurus babies. I love me a Taurus. All right, do. And I am Officially a Master's degree holder with my Ms. In School Counseling with an opportunity of which you know I will take to be a licensed and professional clinical counselor after completion of 3,000 paid hello hours.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's right.

[Jade]

That's right.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's right.

[Jade]

I am graduating with distinction. A 4.0 GPA. Boh boh.

[Kia]

Period.

[Jade]

Gunshot noises from California State University North Carolina Ridge with raving reviews from my professors and supervisors at all three internships I've had over the years.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Now this program almost took me out with the endless amount of hidden fees with licensures, insurance and our collection services. I will always side eye these programs for not putting these fees in the total costs. Amen. My 118 page qualitative thesis on me, social media effects on student perception and overall well being throughout the lens of school counselors and an hour long one way commute three times a week. But I made it. This degree was also made possible by all those who surrounded me with love and encouragement and is shared with them. So I thank my beautiful mom for always believing in me. My dad for always uplifting me with endless dad jokes. My sister for being my inspiration in all my life. My sister from another Mr. BFF who I've known for half of my life and has seen the lowest of lows and the highest of my highs. My trinity and US family and all the friends I have made in the cohort and beyond. This degree is dedicated to all of the seven beautiful individuals that I have lost within this three year program. So sorry. Including my furry companion Nala who was gone far too soon. And always to my granny who passed right before my graduation for my Bachelor's degree in 2020 2021. Our Our love to you.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

I love and miss her dearly. And I know she will still be cheering me on from another plane when I walk across the stage. As one of three black individuals with the 40 person program, I aim to always represent those who are marginalized not only by this nation but throughout the world. I think about the children, individuals and families that are suffering through genocide and terror and it will always be free. Immigrants and all that are being kidnapped and disappeared by the US government.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Government.

[Jade]

Free Palestine. Free Congo. Free Sudan. Free Lebanon. Free Iran. Free all marginalized people. Protect trans lives. Protect our queer lives. Ty, give me air horns. You are my kind of bitch. Excuse me. All right. We are not free until we are all free. All right. That just lit a fire in my belly honey. And with that log set speech I will get off my soapbox and Let y' all know, I'm proudly going into my 3,000 hours of therapy work at a redacted place. Oh, I know a therapy couch hates to see me coming. If I am delusional and sadistic enough, I will go back and have that doctor title next to my name. I hope to see y' all in the near future. And, Jade, please come back to LA for more curated dinners. I will try my very damnedest. You apologize to my mom for cursing. Oh, that was your mother? But little do you know, she's like a sailor on the high seas. My girl. Love you both, and thank you so much for using this time to shout all of us out. Congrats, grads. We made it. And that is from Nia Darbo. Congratulations. Excuse me, Mississippi school counselor, graduate students, period. Nia, congratulations.

[Kia]

Yeah, congratulations to you, girl, cuz you did what that period.

[Jade]

And that announcement is arguably one of my top five. I'm not gonna hold you.

[Kia]

So, I mean, I'm proud of all

[Jade]

of y' all across the game.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

But, you know. Oh, hey, Jay has five all time. Just saying. Go ahead, sis.

[Kia]

Okay, the next one is from Don Shell. Donchell writes. Hi, Jade and Kia. I've been a loyal listener for years, and your graduation shout outs are one of my favorite traditions every season. Back in 2019, I submitted my own graduation announcement when I earned my master's degree in social work. And hearing my words read on the podcast made me feel so seen, proud, and celebrated during such an important chapter of my life. Now, seven years later, I'm writing in for someone even more special. My son, Preston, who is graduating from kindergarten. Preston was my little pandemic era preemie baby, and somehow, in what feels like the blink of an eye, he has grown into the most curious, thoughtful, hilarious, and bright little person. This year, he has fallen even more in love with learning in the most beautiful ways. He asks beautiful questions about the world, loves numbers and science, reads constantly creates his own stories, and recently became obsessed with using a scientific calculator to calculate some square roots and ask Alexa questions about pie.

[Jade]

Go, nephew. Go, nephew.

[Kia]

He literally fell asleep with the calculator under his pillow one night because he was so excited about his calculations.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Oh, my God, I love that so much.

[Kia]

But more than anything, I'm proud of the person he's becoming. He's deeply thoughtful, emotionally expressive, kind, and endlessly curious about people and the world around him. Watching him grow has honestly been one of the greatest joys and privileges of my life. Thank you for continuing this tradition. And creating space for people to celebrate milestones both big and small. It means more than you probably realize. And that signed a very proud mom, Dawn. Shell.

[Jade]

Wait. Look at our nephew. Look at him. Look at him. Come on, Preston. I love you.

[Kia]

Come on, Preston.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Congratulations.

[Kia]

A mathematician. You are already.

[Jade]

Okay. Scientist. Okay.

[Kia]

Excited about his calculations. I know. That's right.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I know.

[Kia]

That's.

[Jade]

We're so proud of you. We hope you are proud of yourself. Stay curious. Stay curious. Stay curious. Ask questions. Forever. Question everything.

[Kia]

Everything. We're proud of you, Preston. Yes.

[Jade]

And so much love to you, dawnshell. Thank you for writing in and sharing this beautiful blessing with us. All right. Oh, it's my turn.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Hey.

[Jade]

Oh, yes. Our next email comes from Shamo. No, that's not how you say your name, I'm sure. Let's see if. Let's see if we put this in here for that. Oh, Shami. On.

[Kia]

Okay,

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay.

[Jade]

I am so sorry for that. Let me get started. Hello. Hello, sisters from a different Mr. First of all, thank you all for unknowingly helping carry me through the ghetto obstacle course that was the pandemic. Somewhere between grief, confusion, and trying to figure my life out, I found getting grown and instantly felt like I had found my people. At that time, I was struggling deeply with the recent loss of my father. And when I say my father was my person, I mean that with my whole heart. Losing him completely shifted me. I was grieving heavily while also trying to figure out who I even wanted to become. Moving forward, life felt heavy. I felt stuck in sadness, fear, uncertainty, and honestly, disconnected from myself. Then I found jaw.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Oh, wow.

[Jade]

About to do it to me. You about to do it to me. Oh, we're sending you so much love. Somehow through laughter, honesty, random tangents, blackness, joy, wisdom, and pure sisterhood, y' all helped pull me out of that rut. I truly felt like I found my sisters in you too. Ah, Chef Jada. A lot of people call me Jada, so I'll let it rock. I'm absolutely your Mary Jane smoking chef sister. And I hope one day we get to collaborate in the future, because you're absolutely on my vision board. Oh, my God. Not my favorite face. I'm speaking that into existence now.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Dr.

[Kia]

Vision Board. Come on.

[Jade]

What? That's crazy. You know what I'm saying? Boogly boo. I'm actually little. Do you know? I'm asleep. Paralysis. Dr. Takia, there have been so many moments listening to you where I've thought, yep, we definitely grew up in similar households. The way you talk about Family life and navigating adulthood has always resonated with me and made me me feel seen in such a comforting way. Listening to y' all every week gave me comforting during a season where I really needed community. Even if y' all didn't know I existed. You helped me realize life was not over for me, that I could still reinvent myself, that there was still purpose, joy, and passion waiting for me on the other side of grief. In 2024, I made one of the biggest decisions of my life, and I relocated to Colorado and decided to go back to school to follow my dream of becoming a chef. Oh, this is why I'm writing today. I officially graduated from culinary school on October 4, 2025, with high honors. Yes. It was one of the most challenging and rewarding experiences of my life, and I loved every minute of it. I was lucky enough to go through the program with an amazing group of students who truly took the craft seriously. And being surrounded by so much talent pushed me to grow in ways I never expected.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

One of the unexpected blessings from this journey was was reconnecting with my childhood best friend. After my move, that relationship became something I didn't even realize my heart had been missing for years. It reminded me how healing. How healing it is to be loved by people who knew you before life got heavy. I'm also a very proud auntie of 12 nieces and nephews. My God. And one of the things that keeps me going is showing them that it's never too late to follow your dreams, reinvent your dream yourself, or choose happiness for yourself. Amen. Speaking of proud auntie moments, I also want to shout out my niece, Jazzy, who graduated high school on May 16. She's the youngest of my older set of nieces and nephews, and I'm unbelievably proud of the young woman she's becoming. Watching her graduate while stepping. While I'm stepping into this new chapter of my own life just feels so special.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Now for the next chapter. I accepted an offer with a major hotel chain to join their presence prestigious culinary leadership program as a chef beginning June 2020.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's right.

[Jade]

Sometimes I sit back and think about how different my life looks from the person who first pressed play on getting grown during the pandemic. Y' all may never fully understand how much your voices, honesty, humor, and sisterhood helped guide me through this version of myself. I genuinely cannot wait to see where my passion for cooking and food takes me next. Thank you for helping me find my way back to myself. Your sister Sh me on.

[Kia]

Sh me on.

[Jade]

Sh me on.

[Kia]

Oh, my God.

[Jade]

You just gave me chills. Wait. Oh, wait. We got pictures. We got pictures. Yes, chef. You better show up in your toque, Chef. Someone. Oh, and. Oh, we got jazzy, too. Come on, Jazz. And she's jazzy.

[Kia]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jade]

This is beautiful. Oh, I am just so beautiful. It was hard and it was fulfilling, wasn't it? You know what I made the other day? Shami on for dinner? I made a pan chicken breast and some palms per seade. You know what I'm saying? I took it back to unit one, and I just. I think this is so beautiful. And you really did. You gave me. You made my hair stand up on my arm.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Jade]

I'm just. I'm so over the moon for you. I. I would love, love, love to connect with you as some point, and I'm so excited to hear how your journey goes.

[Kia]

Proud of you, girl.

[Jade]

Congratulations. And congratulations, Jazz A.

[Kia]

Yes. I love this. I love you so much. Okay, we have an update from Ro. Roshonda. Who we read her announcement last week. She says, praise the Lord. Niggas totally forgot that part. In my shout out, you all asked if I was a SAG or a Scorpio. Neither. I'm a whole Leo and I love a good challenge. I dropped my daughter on Saturday and enrolled in some school on a Wednesday. I was finally. I was finally ready to return to school and finish the degree I started in 2014. And in 2021, 22, I lost my beloved granny and daddy less than three weeks apart and my mama over the course of eight months after my baby graduated from high school, I was motivated to get back to living life and getting this degree. And I constantly talk about that. I constantly talked about with my parents. So there's that. And that's Ro. So thank you again, Ro, for the update. And we are always thinking about you. Super proud of you, and we love that.

[Jade]

I love this.

[Kia]

I'm not going to get. Not my daughter. Not.

[Jade]

I am. For me, she not. Because she's a Leo and she is the son. I love it, Ro. I love it. Thank you for the update. Thank you for the update. All right. Dear G.G. i like that. Praise the Lord, Negroes. I like that. I'm old school and say the word. I love your show, Dr. Key and Chef Jade. I've been a listener for many years, and I love the way you both support and encourage black women. That's all we gonna do. That's all we can do. That's what we want to do makes our teeth white. This graduation announcement is for my beautiful niece, Jamara Myrie, who's getting an MBA in finance from from Cambridge College. Yeah, she completed a BS in business administration from Central State University back in May 2023. But I missed the deadline for the graduation announcements. That's all right. I couldn't pass it up this time. My niece is smart, brilliant, and all around grand. And an all around grand young lady. We're all so proud of her and wish her so much success on the next leg of her journey. Auntie Tasha loves you.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

And this is Latasha. Listen, listening. From Luxembourg we International. I love that. Come on. Come on, all.

[Kia]

Congratulations, Jamarra, and thank you, Auntie Tasha, for writing in.

[Jade]

Okay. Aunties are important. They make the world go around.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Absolutely.

[Kia]

Hey, aunties. It's a little early, but I miss announcing my master's degree, and I told myself I would not miss this one. On July 31, I will be hooded as a doc as Dr. Ashantis Johnson Knox after having successfully defended my dissertation titled American

[Jade]

Requiem.

[Kia]

The big ideas are buried here.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay.

[Kia]

American Requiem. Reconceptualizing success in the culture of power. This road has not been easy, but listening to the podcast has gotten me through some of the hardest parts of adulthood and helped shape the woman I've become. You two inspire me so much. Thank you for all you do. And that is you. Thank. Signed with much love by Dr. Ashantis Knox.

[Jade]

Amen. Oh, very proud relations. Yeah. Very proud.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

We love to see it.

[Jade]

Reconceptualizing success in the culture of power, huh?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Come on, American.

[Jade]

I love that.

[Kia]

Nothing really is okay. Okay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's what be okay them, baby.

[Jade]

Big ideas.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Oh, I love it. Okay, congratulations. Our next listener letter comes from Sydney, and she writes, hi, Dr. Key and Chef Jade. I've been listening to Getting grown since the beginning. That's a long time.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Jade]

And I'm honestly shook that I'm sending this. I never thought I would be in these announcements, but I'm so excited to share this recent accomplishment. Also, buckle up. This may be a bit long. I love it. After graduating from the University of Michigan with a bachelor's degree in psychology and Creative writing In 2016, I was burnt out and ready to just work using the degrees I earned. I'm a first generation college graduate. And after starting my professional career in College Access, I told myself I didn't need any additional higher education. My nana. Oh, I love a nana. I have a nana.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Which is her maternal Grandmother. And Nana is pronounced oh. Oh yeah. Nana pronounced with a na. A nap. Okay.

[Kia]

However we said it.

[Jade]

Right. Yeah. Okay. Very good. However, never stopped asking me what I would go back for a master's. I'll admit for years I remained firm with her and myself about not wanting to go back to school and using my degrees to reach any professional height I wanted to pursue. I was determined to prove I didn't need anything else to be great.

[Kia]

That's right.

[Jade]

I continue to grow professionally through working as a college advisor and mentor with black and brown first generation high school students. I supported students and their families in navigating the college application process and creating plans that aligned with where they saw themselves. After high school, I was gaining so much fulfillment and professional growth from the work I was doing that my stance against going back to school was hardening with each year. Then my mom died in 2019.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Oh no.

[Jade]

I'm so sorry. And the pandemic happened not long after that. Both experiences forced me to examine who I was and what I wanted in my life. So much seemed uncertain and I was looking for something meaningful in my life. At that time, I was working at a nonprofit that utilized social work practices that centered self efficacy and empowerment to support young women of diverse backgrounds in creating successful futures for themselves. After graduating high school through a lot of self reflection and witnessing the power of the work I did, I decided to pursue a Master's in social work. Needless to say, Nana was jumping for joy when I told her I was going back to school. Being a first generation student shaped a lot of how I pursued my Master's. I knew that higher degrees cost more than bachelor's degree, and I didn't want to add more debt to my already high student loan balance. I knew I needed a strong plan to keep my student debt manageable. I pursued a four year part time program while working full time and serving as a grad assistant for my first two years. That plan was great financially, but it was not easy mentally. There were many homework filled late nights and weekends. When I questioned my decision, my old resolve to just use my bachelor's degree was always in the back of my mind. But the unwavering support of Nana remained louder than any doubt I could have entertained through my program. I got married, experienced significant family loss, changed careers, and challenged myself in ways I'm still learning from. I also started pursuing a graduate certificate in academic advising halfway through my Master's program, completed three internships, and navigated a new role as a member of a family caregiving team. For Nana. Yet through it all, I graduated on Saturday, May 2, 2026, receiving a master's in social work with a concentration on children and Family services and a graduate certificate in academic advising from Eastern Michigan University. Nana wasn't able to attend my graduation due to recent health complications, but I visited her with my cap and gown to share my moment with her.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's right.

[Jade]

Oh, my goodness. And although my mom couldn't celebrate this accomplishment with me on this earth, I graduated on her birthday.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

Oh, you just go. That was about to get me. And it felt like she was with me in spirit the entire day. As women, we should know that the word. The words we tell ourselves have immense power. When we breathe life into even the smallest dreams, nothing can stop us. Especially when you have a loving black grandmother in your corner breathing life into you and your dreams. Oh, I'm about to go. I'm about to go. Thank you so much for celebrating this accomplishment with me. I attached some pictures of Nana and me celebrating together. Best wishes. And that's from Sydney. Oh, Sydney, y' all about to undo me today. Oh, look at that. Come on, body. Oh, look at your phone. It's about to do it. Oh, I'm about to do it. Oh, I'm about to do it.

[Kia]

You know, I'm a grandma's girl now. Don't get me started.

[Jade]

Yeah, you know, we are grandma's girls. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. Who I saw this weekend, too, so that really just did me in right there. Oh, my gosh. My gosh.

[Kia]

Shout out to you, Sydney. Thank you for sharing and helping, making us a part of this. I'm honored and humble and just proud of you. Very proud of you. Because, you know, we say all the time, you know, your life does not stop lifing as you pursue your credentials or your career or your purpose. Like, you know, you.

[Jade]

Arguably, life's harder.

[Kia]

Yeah, exactly. And. But you persisted through and did what you set out to do. You were adaptable and willing to change your mind and courageous enough to change it. And I hope you're as proud of yourself as we are of you. And thank you. And tell Nana we say, hey.

[Jade]

Hey, Nana.

[Kia]

Hey, Nana.

[Jade]

Oh, man. Yeah. Sydney, so much love to you. So much love to you.

[Kia]

Yes, yes, indeed. So, so much. And the last one this week, make sure that you're sending yours.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

If you.

[Kia]

If you want to be a part of the graduation announcements, make sure Tristan Dior. Hello at getting grown Co. But I'm going to read the last one now. It comes from D. It says, hi, ladies. I hope this shout out finds you well. I want to take this time. I want to take this time to shout out my amazing twin sister now, Dr. Bina Malka Stoff. Bom, bom bom. I'm calling her Dr. B from now

[Dr. Shante Holly]

on because I know that's right.

[Kia]

May 18, she walked across the stage receiving her PhD in social welfare from Yeshiva University, researching the birth experiences of black Jewish women in Israel. She is setting another first for our bloodline. She was the first Ivy league degree recipient in the family. This degree was fought for with blood, sweat and tears. This lady raised the baby boy, started a new full time job, started adjunct teaching, bought a whole house, gave birth to another baby and led a funded research study all while getting this PhD. You're such. Yeah, she's a badass. It's hard to process that our dad isn't here to see it in person, but I'm here to let her know we see her and she is moving mountains. You are who you think you are. Introducing Dr. B. Shawna Barry and myself love her to the moon and back. This announcement is a reminder to my sister to pop her shit because yeah, she can. Thank you, Jade and Dr. Kira for making space for the love. P.S. we are both team typing fast and we love it here, period. And that's. That is signed D and shout out to you D and your sister, Dr. B. Okay. And thanks for the flicks.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Come on, we stand.

[Jade]

Thank you to everybody who wrote in. Make sure you continue to send your announcements to helloettandgrown. Co. And we are excited to continue to read these for the next couple weeks.

[Kia]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

And you can send your honesty box questions, all of that also to hellotngrown. Co. And we will move on to the black woman self care.

[Kia]

Let's do it.

[Jade]

I deserve. We're gonna move swiftly right along into this self care. So I allowed me and Noah to play a hooky day. You know, we had a little heat wave.

[Kia]

Yes, we did.

[Jade]

And so we went to the beach. I was like, you know what? Fuck it. We ball and went to the deli, grabbed some sandwiches, some chips, linked with some friends. Everybody took a hooky date and jumped on the a tray and went to the beach.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I love a good ditch day.

[Jade]

It was a. It was a ditch day. I was like, I especially, you know, working for yourself, oftentimes you don't get those right or you or you know, because yes, there are a lot of benefits for working from home or working for yourself or whatever to have that, that bit of freedom where you don't have to report to a specific place at a specific time, but also, you know, the other side to that means that you are always working, working. You know what I'm saying? And a lot of times there's no boundary or line between your work and your personal life because it all starts to get, you know, convoluted together. So it was a true life, like ditch day. No recording, no meetings, no. None of that. And it was everything that I needed. And then, you know, I was like, can we just dust a little bit of this winter color off? Like, just. I know somebody's looking at me right now like. But no. 2, you'd be surprised. Okay. You'd be okay. I don't know if you can. I actually got a sunburn. I got a sunburn. No, turn red. You can see it all on my forearms. I was burnt. My knees all burned up, y'.

[Kia]

All. I mean, the first sign of ultraviolet rain, y' all be outside.

[Jade]

You not be sister. I'm like, I'm like that John Ham meme. I'm like, yeah, I'm in the club.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Like,

[Kia]

okay, go ahead.

[Jade]

So that. That's my self care. We took a. We took a real life ditch day and went to the beach and got ourselves some vitamin D and some. Some. Some good Yamaya energy and, you know, it was everybody. Everything I needed. What you got, what you. What you did this week.

[Kia]

Well, my dish day.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I'm not my dish day.

[Kia]

What the hell? My self care. I should take a ditch day, but my self care is a little different. So, you know, I. As I shared last week, I am trying to reconnect to my, you know, movement and workout. Like, you know, I. I think I. I wrote a post about this this week because I think if I'm honest, I stopped going to the gym or strength training. I stopped strength training with real consistency, like right after D day died. And I've been having a hard time trying to go back and just honestly thinking it to the, you know, to Dr. Shantay's point. Like, you know, leaning in with curiosity, like, why don't I want to go? Why? Why? What is hard? What feels? What? Like, is it that I'm just tired? Like, what about it? And so in. I think, you know, I think there's just the heaviness of the world and the heaviness of all of the things. Like, I don't want to pick up heavy things and I. I want to move. I want to move in ways that feel Good. And so, and that feet like, you know, and not to say that shrimp training didn't feel good, but you know, I just, I just haven't really felt called to that space and I, and I don't think it's permanent. I'm sure I will be back, but I'm just trying not to judge that this space I'm in and just be honest and transparent about it. I was talking to my good friend Tiffany who listens to the show.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So.

[Kia]

Hey, Dr. Jones. Tiffany Jones. And she shared with me. She's also another chronic illness warrior like myself. And she shared with me that she's been, she tried Pilates. There's a black women owned Pilates studio in Baltimore that she has been frequenting and she invited me to go as her guest. And so I made, I registered for my first Pilates class and it will be next Saturday. But I have been nervous because I've always worried that with my R.A. like I, I can't do a lot of, you know, I can't put a lot of body weight on my joints. I just always wondered if Pilates would work for me. And she, she said that they have like different levels and they accommodate people with chronic illness, chronic illnesses like us. And so I'm just going to be open to it.

[Jade]

Okay, I love that.

[Kia]

Go and see what they talking about and I will report back. But yes, please do. I'm excited. I'm taking a step into the unknown and seeing what, where it will, where it will take me.

[Jade]

I love that. Yes, please report back. You know, has been on my list for some time and the one black woman owned studio that I want to try near me, I've been, you know, having a grandma's time trying to navigate this. So it's not you, it's me. But I, I would love to hear your take on it. Yes, you know, we, I gotta, I gotta be mobile. My auntie started talking about her leg the other day and you know, and I was like, you know, nah, get it, get it together because you don't want, you don't want to be down the line talking about that, you know, that leg. I don't want that. So. So I can't wait to hear about it. Big mama, your arm. Oh, Lord.

[Kia]

I'm kidding. No, Jason, Jace likes. Arms are just fine. Guys don't.

[Jade]

Yeah, they're great. For now. For now. If I don't get the Pilates, I don't know. So we'll get that. Yes, please do. Shall we head on in to close this out? Our petty peeves.

[Kia]

Let's do it.

[Jade]

Let's do it.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

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[Kia]

What? Yes.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

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[Jade]

Just make sure we protect each other.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And live sports like ufc.

[Jade]

Welcome to the history books.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

New home, same family. Your BET favorites are now on Paramount Plus. Subscribe now.

[Kia]

All right.

[Jade]

We going to close this thing out with our petty peeves?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yes.

[Jade]

And I don't know if we've done this before. We may have, we may have not, but. So when I was headed to Cleveland to go visit the kids and my grandma Graham. Oh, my girl, she's. She's tired. She said she's getting tired. I was at the airport and the lady kept announcing. She was like, you know, we are oversold on this flight. And so we are asking one person to give up their seat, and we will give you a 200 credit. And then five minutes later, come on. We are oversold and we're looking for one person to give up the seat. We will give you a 300 credit. I think that got up to like, 6, 700.

[Kia]

Yeah.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Cause, girl, what?

[Jade]

And while I would have loved to jump at the opportunity to go and book a trip on Delta for. For their mistake, I was like, why do you all keep overselling flights? Like, why do you keep doing that? Stop doing that. What do you think is going to cancel on their trips? Like, if they do, they're going to do. Do that. And then you'll have a free seat and you can give it to the standby flyers. But it's so greedy and so disgusting that these airlines do this. And I'm like, cap, I just. I. Capitalism is really the great disease.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I don't know.

[Jade]

That's really the great disease.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I don't.

[Jade]

I. I just.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

It is.

[Kia]

It is curious, right? I just wonder, like, because it's something.

[Jade]

What's the logic?

[Kia]

Yeah. Like, I don't. I don't know that I follow. Like, why. Let me see. Let me see. If I ask the Google machine what

[Jade]

comes up, what they say.

[Kia]

Yeah. Okay. Airlines intentionally oversell flights to maximize profits by capitalism. Wait. By compensating for an average no show rate of 5 to 15%. So I guess there is an average no show rate.

[Jade]

Yes.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Jade]

So then you know who does show up, though? Employees and, And, And. And companion flyers. Yeah, they do show up. And there's a reason why you have an. Why you have benefits, flying benefits that you should be able to use. And if we would stop being greedy and relying on that body, then. Then things would balance themselves out and you'd give people a more pleasurable flying experience. But what happens when you're a little five to 15, don't work out for that particular flight, and every single needs to get to Cleveland, Ohio? It just irritated me. And I was like, I'm. I hope nobody does this. Like, I want y' all to have to figure this out. Tell all these people who got on the computer with their debit and credit cards and booked a flight where things were available. Let every show up for this so y' all can figure this out. That irritated my spirit.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

What's your petty.

[Kia]

Okay, no, I just.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I do not disagree. Jesus Christ.

[Jade]

Woo.

[Kia]

Okay. Okay. It's been a wild ride. This has been a great show. I love every show.

[Jade]

Energy. Peaks and valleys. Peaks and valleys. Mountains have been.

[Kia]

We've had some real. I mean, highs and lows behind the scenes. It's just been a wide range of emotions.

[Jade]

This recording session, I melted like Alex Smack. He had to bring me back to life like

[Dr. Shante Holly]

y'. All.

[Kia]

It was so good, but. Okay, I'm sorry. Let me focus, focus, focus.

[Jade]

Okay, lock in.

[Kia]

Okay, let me focus. Let me focus. Let me focus. Okay. I don't really have one. I think that's why I'm having such a hard time. I'm like, you know, usually it'll just come, but it's.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I'm struggling today.

[Kia]

I think I'm just tired, baby. My parents.

[Jade]

It's all right.

[Kia]

Maybe my petty peeve is that, you know, I am at max capacity after the week that I've had.

[Jade]

That is fair.

[Kia]

I am at max capacity and I am just. I'm just ready. I had one, but I think I'm rethinking it because I don't want to offend anybody with what I was going to say. And I was going to try to pull another one out, but maybe I could say it. Yeah, yeah. I'll record it and it'll be. You should sign up for the Patreon if you want to know what my real petty.

[Jade]

There you go. It's the best way to support getting grow Patreon.

[Kia]

That's right. Okay. We. Sometimes you got to hide things behind the paywall. Keep. Keep people out your business.

[Jade]

Okay. Gated community.

[Kia]

Gated community. A boundary security guy, as Dr. Shantae said, a boundary.

[Jade]

A boundary. A boundary. That's right. Oh, Dr. Shantay. Speaking of Dr. Shantay. Well, since Kia is petty, peeve is being overstimulated. Overworked.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

And overdone. Overdone, which I think that's not even petty. That's a party pee. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think that that is. Maxing. As maxing as the kids say.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Oh, my God.

[Kia]

I learned that today because, okay, somebody sent me a thing about beauty maxing, and I was like, what the hell is that?

[Jade]

Go hard or go home is essentially what I understand it to be like. Go big is bigging. It's biggin on big. As amigos say. I. I assume. Max, are you about to look it up? Maxing.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Jade]

Because, I mean, two words I learned from the kids. Maxing and glazing. Glazing is gross, by the way. But yeah, it sounds like it like, yeah, it's like, you know, if I was sitting up here and I was like, yes. So I love that outfit and that hair is eating and blah, blah, blah. Well, that could be black woman empowerment. Somebody be like, all right, now you glazing. Stop. You know how you glaze? I'm like, oh, yuck. Yucky.

[Kia]

Kids, matching is Internet slang. Internet slang, okay. Meaning to optimize, maximize, or push a specific quality habit or trait to its absolute limit.

[Jade]

Yeah.

[Kia]

So it's like maxing out.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

So it's how.

[Kia]

How does one beauty max then exactly. Every product ever with the skin care

[Jade]

and like, first of all, you're wasting your dollars in this economy when you're doing.

[Kia]

Honestly, honestly, you're wasting them.

[Jade]

You don't need to do. You don't need all that.

[Kia]

No, that's probably why they're. They're. They're generating that because it just. Just forces more consumption.

[Jade]

I know. Looks like when I think about us, when I think about us in our beauty regimens as tweens and teens and things. Oh, girl.

[Kia]

It was Queen Helene.

[Jade]

I had the cherry lip gloss gloss with the. That with the roll on thing that had no moisture to it whatsoever from the beauty supply store.

[Kia]

It was just.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And then there was mineral oil.

[Kia]

Nothing else.

[Jade]

Exactly. Vaseline. Absolutely. Elevated in a false cherry red dye 40. Some lip liner from the beauty supply store.

[Kia]

Also that I didn't start wearing makeup until I was 30, like almost, maybe 25.

[Jade]

Oh, no. I definitely cholera out and wore a brown lip line with some lip gloss. I definitely did that. I did that.

[Kia]

No, I saw it done. But that's not something that I feel

[Jade]

like I did a lot that was it. That was literally it, though. I didn't do anything else, like. Like when I say nothing else, not anything else. So, like, I look my eyebrows to oblivion.

[Kia]

But, oh, yeah, I didn't get my eyebrows done for the first time till prom. But I don't really have a bad eyebrow.

[Jade]

No, you have a nice eyebrow.

[Kia]

I know that the girls. There were some girls who were doing it in high school, but it was not something that. It was a need. If I was going to spend my money, it was going to get my nail. And I wasn't really into the brows.

[Jade]

But honestly, if I'm gonna talk about black mom trauma. Oh, yeah, it's my mother's fault. That's the lady who did it. If she hears this, so be it. Lady. I remember the day where she was like, whoa, those.

[Kia]

Dr. Shantay said it's the soil conditions. That's right.

[Jade]

Exactly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

It's the condition.

[Jade]

And my mother was a border boom boomer slash Gen X woman, where appearances

[Kia]

mean a lot to them. Yes, yes.

[Jade]

That eyebrows start to get plucked. We got to shave the legs. Like, what you doing? Like, you know, so.

[Kia]

Okay.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Yeah.

[Kia]

So it says, okay. Looks maxing and beauty maxing is focusing on optimizing physical appearance, grooming, and skincare routines. Unnecessarily extreme versions include controversial or unsafe

[Dr. Shante Holly]

procedures

[Kia]

and radical diets.

[Jade]

Why?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Why?

[Kia]

These children should not be looks maxing.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Beauty maxing.

[Kia]

What?

[Jade]

You're ruining your skin.

[Kia]

Exactly. I get so upset, and I just be. And I try because, you know, I have to remember that these are people's kids. But when I see yalls kids in the Sephora using up my products, it'd be like, little girl, get out my way.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

What is you doing over here?

[Jade]

Look, when I take Noah to Sephora with me, I'd be like, you can pick a lip gloss.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

What is you doing over here?

[Kia]

You gonna burn your face.

[Jade]

Why are you. Why are you by the retinol? What are you preserving? Like, stop that right now.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You don't have no hyperpigmentation. You don't have no pigmentation at all.

[Kia]

Please get out of it.

[Jade]

I remember Noah did an auntie trip to Sephora. And, you know, aunties like to buy stuff.

[Kia]

Yes.

[Jade]

So she got a bunch of stuff. Stuff. And she came back, and I started reading hyaluronic and glycolic. I said, you don't need this right now. So I'm gonna go ahead. I'm gonna take all of this.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Exactly.

[Jade]

I was like, and I'm doing this for your own good. I know that doesn't feel good. I was like, you keep the stuff, but you. I don't want you harming your skin and doing too much to it before while it's still in its development stage.

[Kia]

Auntie had to, you know, and then

[Jade]

your kids be on the train with them eyelashes and their eyes be blood shot, vampire red.

[Kia]

It's dangerous.

[Jade]

And I feel like that can't be good for your vision.

[Kia]

All of it is bad. I think, you know, we talking to, you know, Tania and I have a couple of other friends who are stylists who talk about how the integrity of the. The younger girl's hair is not strong because they start with the weaves and the chemicals too early. It's like, man, why do you need a closure? You are 13.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

What you mean? What you mean?

[Jade]

Because this is the bus

[Kia]

up, half down.

[Jade]

And here's the thing. I don't have a problem with kids expressing themselves. I don't have a problem. Put on, put color in the hair, put braid some pink and black and purple and whatever you want in there. I don't care about none of that. I think I start to get concerned when it seems like it's gonna. With the long term well being, you know what I'm saying? So you want to play in a wig, playing a wig, but we don't need to be doing closures, you know what I'm saying? To go to science, you have an aversion.

[Kia]

I see the danger of it is like, you know, you have an aversion to your natural hair, your natural.

[Jade]

Also that also there has got to

[Kia]

be some, like, you need to learn and growing up is very much about getting to know and falling in love with yourself as yourself. When you start, like, you know what I'm saying? When you start very early in terms of like concealing and hiding and, you know, you're. You're starting and you are participating. Yeah. In a culture where you are. Because I mean, as much as I. And y' all know, I'm a makeup girly. And I believe if you're gonna put it on, put it on.

[Jade]

Self expression is important. Absolutely.

[Kia]

But I do think that there is something to be said for kids looking like kids. Right. I just think that we should not participate in the adultification because it's already happening, particularly for our black and brown girls and boys and boys, which is black and brown children. You know, the adultification is happening, but I think, you know, I don't want us to lean into it. And I'm even this. I Remember this, this like one that, you know, I play aunties at the church used to ask all the time,

[Dr. Shante Holly]

how old are you?

[Kia]

12. And what's wrong with being 12?

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Nothing.

[Jade]

We trying here. Yeah. And now that's. Now that's us.

[Kia]

Yeah, exactly. Because over there with the retinols like you get yourself away from this.

[Jade]

You don't need stop.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You're gonna burn your whole face.

[Jade]

Moisturizer and wash your face. Save your something sensitive and save your money. You know the other side to that too is I everything you said. And there's something really beautiful about the steps of self discovery. Right. And expression. And I think yes to kids allowing like do not try to rush this because you're never getting it back ever again. And also there is, there's something lovely about getting to the next, next level where it's like, all right, now I can do this. Now I get to explore this side of myself. Okay, Now I'm here. I get to explore this side of myself. And there's beauty in those steps and in those levels and taking your time and being at that place and enjoying that place where you are because you're going to get to the next place. And so you know, it just. But I also. You brought up a really good point. I don't want these children feeling like they themselves is not enough to look

[Dr. Shante Holly]

like when they be on here.

[Jade]

It's funny when y' all get on there talking about this little scoop of hair like it's funny. But also as long, you know, I don't want you to feel away about a scoop of hair. Like be okay with that hair.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

You know what I mean?

[Kia]

Absolutely.

[Jade]

So you know you're okay with bald headed eyeballs because you're actually not bald. You're actually not bald headed in the eyeballs, babe.

[Kia]

You gotta. And also, and also it will distort your reality because eyebrows naturally, like this

[Dr. Shante Holly]

is what eyebrows look like naturally.

[Kia]

Eyebrows and eyelashes, what we put on, like I put on a lash. But I also like y' all see me on camera, y' all see me recording in my fresh face. Because I don't want ain't going on. You know what I'm saying? And it's not. Yeah. And I mean when I want to put makeup on, I will. But I don't ever want to get to place where I get uncomfortable with my natural face on camera. I want to, you know, and I can be both. I can do, I can do both and be completely okay. Like you know, I'm, I don't want to look at myself and say, oh, never again. Like, you know, like, like that's very real. And that's something that happens throughout life and it's, it is unfortunate. I hate. I feel like it's happening earlier and earlier for us. And I think that also has to do with the adultification. It's like you're not supposed to look like that. Like, you are. You are not supposed. Like there's nothing wrong with your natural 13 year old self. That's how 13 year olds look. I know that that's not what you see in your phone, but that's how 13 year old girls look. That's how your eyebrows are supposed to look at 11.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

That's how they're supposed to look. It's nothing wrong with that.

[Jade]

And now I would like Noah's 12 year old eyebrows at.

[Kia]

At 40.

[Jade]

I would love to have eyebrows right now.

[Kia]

Sometimes back. That's all the things, all the times you look back at pictures and you think about the ways and like at this time I thought I was fat and awkward and it'd be like I would pay cash money to, to, to have that body again.

[Jade]

I'll never forgive you, Donna. Scissors hands for that day you forced me into that chair and decided to nip and tuck at my forehead.

[Kia]

What a time y' all have gotten.

[Jade]

I bet she don't even remember that

[Kia]

episode of Get It Grow.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

And you know what? You're welcome. Okay.

[Jade]

Yes. Yeah. We also been coming through. We also been driving by in our Ultimas real fast in the last couple episodes.

[Kia]

So y', all, we got, we got you back on track. Y' all got graduation episodes, y' all got Dr. Shantay be a J. Just catching up and talking like all of the ways we usually do. So it's, it's a good, it's a good long weekend, you know, episode after a long weekend. So thank y' all for hanging out with us at the kitchen table. We have had a time.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Indeed.

[Jade]

Yes, we have. And we would make sure you're sending all of your graduation announcements, honesty box questions, so forth and so on to [e-mail]. yeah. And make sure you're signing up for the Patreon where you get the full visuals of this particular podcast. And it is the best way for you to support Kia and I if you have the means to do so. Yeah, I'll have an update very soon for you all. Also about our kids getting back home because that's also still been in the process. It's. I just, I want to make sure that I stay accountable and keep you all updated. We had a pause for a second, but all of your donations are. Are helping to get us very, very close within these weeks. So thank you so much to every last one of you. Thank you again. Thank you again, Dr. Shante. Holly. Holly.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Not Charlie.

[Jade]

Okay? Not Charlie. Okay. All right, enough of that. Your Honda Civic.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

I know.

[Jade]

Just doing so much. Thank you, Doctor.

[Kia]

The Honda Civic is maxing.

[Jade]

The Honda Civic is maxing right now. Unnecessary.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Unnecessary.

[Kia]

Okay. We love y'.

[Jade]

All. Yeah, we love y' all very much.

[Kia]

Make sure that you are moisturizing your mind and keeping it moist by minding the business that is yours and yours alone. Make sure that you are taking care of your insides by drinking just as much water as your body can sustain every single day.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Okay?

[Kia]

Hydration is key. And finally, you want to keep your inside skin moisturized because your black will crack if it's dry.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Bye.

[Kia]

Bye.

[Jade]

And, Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Hey, everyone. Check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date? Oh, no.

[Jade]

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird. Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Jade]

Anyways, get a [e-mail] or with your local agent. Liberty. Liberty.

[Dr. Shante Holly]

Liberty.

[Jade]

Liberty.