On the Catwalk (feat. Hey Fran Hey)

Summary

Gettin’ Grown — “On the Catwalk” (feat. Hey Fran Hey) (Feb 24, 2026)
Hosts: Jade (subbing for Keia), Guest: Hey Fran Hey

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode’s main theme is a deep-dive breakdown and candid discussion of the Netflix docuseries “America’s Next Top Model: Reality Check.” Jade hosts solo at the “kitchen table” in Keia’s absence, joined by beloved friend and wellness podcaster Hey Fran Hey. Together, they reflect on the docuseries' exposures, their own memories as viewers, and broader questions about exploitation, Black womanhood, and complicity within reality TV and systems of success. The tone is both humorous and incisive, with Jade’s and Fran’s signature warmth, honesty, and occasional tangent.

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TABLE OF CONTENTS

• Intro & Friendship Banter (02:06)
• Top Model: Reality Check—Initial Reactions (19:08)
• Fashion & Body Talk: Early 2000s Culture (20:27)
• “It Was a Different Time”: Problematic Norms, Accountability, and Cruelty (23:58)
• Tyra as Villain—And Who Really Has Power? (25:25)
• Exploitation and Harm: Contestant Stories (33:26)
• Complicity, Capitalism, and Ethical Dilemmas (42:40)
• Behind the Scenes: Production, the Jays, and Judges (56:03)
• Where Are They Now? Former Contestants (60:08)
• Predatory Storylines, Black Girlhood and Resilience (76:59)
• Healing, Forgiveness, and Systemic Harm (88:52)
• Wrap Up & Final Thoughts (101:29)

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Intro & Friendship Banter (02:06–13:22)

• Jade introduces substitute co-host “Manuka Honey Mami” Fran, highlighting their deep friendship, epic catch-up calls, and the unexpected joy of being neighbors just before the 2020 pandemic (04:28).
• They reminisce about early COVID days, getting sick, living in Brooklyn, and how the quarantine shifted their lives and relationships (05:22).
• Wholesome conversation about Fran’s self-care, appreciating seasonal change, and the bittersweet transition of Jade’s daughter starting independent commutes—a rite of passage as a New York kid (13:22).
  • Quote [Fran, 14:14]: “Remember those days where you’re like... damn, I’m low key a little young adult?”

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Top Model: Reality Check—Initial Reactions (19:08–20:27)

• Jade positions the docuseries as a reckoning for millennial viewers who grew up with Top Model, noting they were the same age as many early contestants.
• Fran explains she didn’t realize the doc was coming but was swept up in the online discourse.
• Both hosts reflect on how the show, and its often-problematic lens, shaped their understanding of beauty and success.

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Fashion & Body Talk: Early 2000s Culture (20:27–23:58)

• Lighthearted roast of the era: Low-rise jeans, “heroin chic,” and big booty struggles.
  • Quote [Jade, 21:12]: “Is it high? It’s high as f—. I don’t have a high—I have a big butt... We don’t discuss the cracks enough!”
• Fran and Jade compare different body types and the “muffin man” effect of fashion trends—both critique and nostalgia about restrictive Y2K style standards.
• Honest look at the cultural expectations and micro-aggressions embedded into body image at the time.

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“It Was a Different Time”: Problematic Norms, Accountability, and Cruelty (23:58–25:25)

• Fran and Jade roll their eyes at the “different time” excuse for past transgressions, pushing for individual accountability.
  • Quote [Fran, 24:19]: “You were just an asshole and it was accepted at that time. You just have to be okay with that.”
• Discussion on racism, colorism, and misogynoir as persistent structures—acknowledging that ignorance is distinct from being actively cruel.

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Tyra as Villain—And Who Really Has Power? (25:25–27:44)

• The docuseries makes Tyra Banks “the villain,” but the hosts point to (often white, male) network execs and producers, e.g., Les Moonves and Ken Mok, as holding real power.
  • Quote [Jade, 25:54]: “That perpetuates the same s— that has allowed all of this... The greater powers do not get the flack and the heat they deserve.”
• Fran and Jade agree Tyra was both complicit and also a “fall guy” for a much larger, exploitative system.

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Exploitation and Harm: Contestant Stories (33:26–42:40)

Danielle & Joanie (Teeth Makeover)

• They were coerced into dental procedures: Danielle bullied to close her gap; Joanie’s mouth severely altered, with long-lasting pain.
  • Quote [Jade, 34:13]: “They tell her in this makeover challenge... ‘You are not marketable with this gap,’ which I find to be insane.”
• Lack of transparency; producers blocked these young women from calling their parents or lawyers before signing releases.

Ebony (Outing a Contestant)

• Contestant was outed as queer on-air without consent—exposing her to real danger.
  • Fran, 32:30: “It was a dangerous position for her to be in, you know, to be outed... The whole thing is exploitation.”

Shandy (Sexual Exploitation)

• Her personal trauma (sexual assault, breakup) was used for storylines and TV drama.
  • Fran, 49:22: “The story. Everything has a story. And it’s like, yeah, interesting, the stories that you chose.”

Dangers and Hazards

• Lack of food/sleep, literal physical danger (treadmills in heels, swimming in gowns), and psychological abuse were routine for drama.

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Complicity, Capitalism, and Ethical Dilemmas (42:40–56:03)

• Fran and Jade examine the ethical trade-offs required to reach mainstream success—it’s nearly impossible to be successful and fully ethical within current systems.
  • Quote [Fran, 43:22]: “There’s certain levels of success that I just feel like are just unnatural and there’s just always going to be corruption involved.”
  • They discuss LeBron James’ cautious PR stance and personal reckoning with investing in systems that fund violence and oppression.
• Honest conversation about being “community-centered,” trying to build wealth responsibly, and the systemic complicity bound up in capitalism.
• The frustration of wanting financial security while being disgusted by the means and systems required to pursue it.

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Behind the Scenes: Production, the Jays, and Judges (56:03–60:08)

• Brief detour into who Ms. J & Jay Manuel really are ethnically (“I thought he was Puerto Rican!”), underscoring how hosts and judges themselves also embodied diversity and were shaped by TV narratives.
• Reminder that even beloved secondary figures were complicit in creating harmful, exploitative TV but were also caught in the system’s machine.
  • Fran, 59:18: “It’s a job, you’re just trying to get ahead... There is a sadness in having to battle politics, but that’s also the reality of business.”
• Discussion of Adrian (Cycle 1 winner): living a rural, off-the-grid-ish trad life now, while others spiral or find peace post-reality TV.

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Where Are They Now? Former Contestants (60:08–76:59)

• Where contestants like Adrian, Shannon, Danielle, and others have landed—some “MAGA,” some pastors’ wives, some deeply harmed by the show, some finding peace.
• Jade and Fran observe the random nature of “Top Model” as a launchpad: for some (especially Black women like Danielle), the show became a stigma that closed professional doors; for others, it opened them.
  • Quote [Jade, 82:15]: “Danielle said that she had a stigma on her because of Top Model, and people didn’t want to use her…”

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Predatory Storylines, Black Girlhood and Resilience (76:59–88:52)

• Unpacking the most unhinged photo shoots: blackface, cultural appropriation, trauma porn (gun violence, eating disorder shoots), fatphobia.
• Kenya’s experience of sexual harassment on set and not being protected; how production prioritized spectacle, not safety or dignity.
• Many Black contestants, like Takara and Yaya, have chosen not to participate in recent exposes, moving on with their lives—while some, like Danielle, still bear emotional and professional scars.

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Healing, Forgiveness, and Systemic Harm (88:52–101:29)

• Fran shares about Yaya’s public forgiveness of Tyra and the process of letting go for self-preservation.
  • Quote [Jade, 87:52]: “Sometimes in that forgiveness, you don’t necessarily get the acknowledgment... But once you release, it really does open so many doors.”
• Honesty about the justified pain and ongoing trauma for many former contestants.
• The hosts point out that the “rotten core” isn’t just individual—but built into the fabric of American entertainment and society.

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Wrap Up & Final Thoughts (101:29–End)

• Fran’s takeaway: both individual and systemic accountability matter. These problems extend beyond Tyra or Top Model.
  • Fran, 101:59: “It’s both/and... it’s also just a much bigger problem.”
• Jade: the “solution” can only begin with reckoning, exposure, and dismantling the structures that create harm.
• Shout-outs:
  • Love for Ms. J, who’s recovering from illness.
  • A call to “mind your business, drink your water... and moisturize, so you look like Danielle and Ebony!”
• Light closing banter about online lingo and age, with their trademark big-sister humor and gentleness.
• Quote [Jade, 105:36]: “Make sure you all are drinking your water, please. Make sure you are minding your business, alright? And also moisturizing yourself so you can end up looking like Danielle and Ebony...”
• Episode ends with gratitude and a preview for next week’s guest.

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• “[On growing up Black in New York] That very specific rite of passage when your parent finally feels you’re responsible enough to get on the train or do the bus... such a big deal.” — Hey Fran Hey (13:26)
• “My question for you is, how do you decide what song you’re singing at the top of each show?” —Fran (02:25), leading to a fun meta-discussion of Gettin’ Grown traditions.
• “[About the excuse ‘It was a different time’] But I wasn’t a terrible person then, just like I’m not a terrible person now.” — Fran (24:19)
• “It perpetuates the same s— that has allowed all of this... the greater powers do not get the flack and heat they deserve.” —Jade (25:54)
• “The whole thing is exploitation. Right? Like, and in so many layers. All these girls were exploited.” —Fran (32:19)
• “[Even success binds you to the system] There’s always an ownership that you have to be willing to lean into where you like... The more you distort yourself, contort yourself, that’s the more success you have.” —Fran (43:52)
• “I think the solution is the dismantling of all of this. Because at its core, it’s rotten.” —Jade (102:03)
• “We all have a lot of work to do.” —Fran (103:10)

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TAKEAWAYS

• The docuseries serves as both nostalgia and a cautionary tale about the cost of success, the exploitation of (especially Black) women, and how “villains” are elevated while true power often remains shadowed and unaccountable.
• Jade and Fran discuss complicity at every level: personal, career, consumer, and systemic, asking how (and if) success can be ethical within such dynamics.
• There is tenderness, humor, and real-world wisdom as the hosts balance heavy truths with care, offering hope that naming problems is the first step to repair.

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For new listeners and those who missed the docuseries: This episode is a fierce, funny, and honest breakdown of “America’s Next Top Model: Reality Check”—exploring both its messy legacy and the power structures it exposed—delivered with the warmth and sharpness characteristic of Gettin’ Grown.

Transcript

[A]

Why are you looking at your phone like that? Bro? I just downloaded a whole movie at lightning Speed. Cricket Wireless 5G got me moving different, man. Stop playing. You probably downloaded the trailer. Nah, for real. That's how fast this is. I'm streaming, gaming, scrolling. All the good stuff, man. How much you paying? It's Cricket, so you can count on great value. Cricket wireless lightning fast 5G speeds at prices that make sense. Switch today. Cricket 5G requires a compatible device and is not available everywhere. The 2026 Chevy Equinox is more than an SUV. It's your Sunday tailgate and your parking lot snack bar. Your lucky jersey. Your chairs and your big cooler fit perfectly in your even bigger cargo space. And when it's go time, your 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen's got the playbook, the playlist and the tech to stay a step ahead. It's more than an suv. It's your Equinox Chevrolet. Together, let's drive. Mama said you're a pretty girl what's in your head? It doesn't matter Brush your hair, fix your teeth what are you wear it's all that matters Just another stage paging the pain away this time I'm gonna take the crown without falling down, down, down Go ahead, Fred.

[B]

I don't know the rest of it. Pretty. I didn't know what you were saying

[A]

that be that's means you're the perfect, perfect, perfect person to sub for Kia. This week on Getting Gross. I swear

[B]

you and Dustin have the unique talent of making every song sound the same, and I never know what it is. A unique talent. You hear me say more, Fred.

[A]

Explain that to me.

[B]

My question for you is, how do you decide what song you're singing at the top of each show?

[A]

You know, that varies, so. That's a good question. Nobody's ever asked me that. If you see us recording in the studio, like in the studio together, it's usually llama shout out to you. Llama. Who has sent her. Who has asked me to sing a particular song now on a week to week basis, it might be what I'm listening to that week. You know, it might be a brown leather jacket ponytail week. And so you might get some yacht rock. It might be inside joke. You might be. You know, in this particular instance, I said, what fits the theme of our discussion today? So I was gonna sing RuPaul.

[B]

Got it. I see.

[A]

I was gonna sing RuPaul because I

[B]

just thought of the music video.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Pageant. Right.

[A]

Yes. So that is how I made my. But thank you so Much Fran, for that insightful question. I hope that gave you all some insight. Sometimes there's no rhyme, no reason. Sometimes there is. Praise the Lord. Niggas, welcome back to the kitchen table. Thank you all for coming once again to appease me. While Kia is taking her time, we're sending her love. And she will be back next week. So do not have to. We love you. You don't have to endure me much longer alone. But I have been bringing your faves to the kitchen table. And this week is your ultimate fave. Manuka, honey. Mami herself. Okay. Portland's princess. Okay, Franiqua,

[B]

I love getting to work with you. Any opportunity, I'mma jump on it. So thank you for having me here.

[A]

Oh, thank you for being here. You already, if y' all don't know me and Fran, okay, we beat to lock. Like we beat Taki.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

We are locked the in. We have seven hour catch ups on the phone. And we are soul mates.

[B]

We really are. I love you. So happy and I miss you. And I'm looking forward to us one day living in the same city again. That's one of my personal goals.

[A]

When we were five minutes apart.

[B]

Oh, my God. Well, we like when we were heaven on earth. And you know what's so crazy? We didn't. That wasn't planned. Like, this was during pandemic quarantine. A lot of us are reconfiguring our lives. Obviously, I needed more space. Since now I was filming at home. I was like, I need another room that I can, like, film in. And then I started looking for apartments and in Brooklyn was coming up. And you know, if you're from Harlem, moving to Brooklyn is like moving cross country. It just.

[A]

It's like when I lived in the Bronx for that period of time, a harrowing experience.

[B]

And I was like, you know what? Let me stop being like that. Find the most amazing apartment. Remember, it was gorgeous. Elevator entrance into the living room. I mean, a dream. And I tell Jade, like, I'm gonna go see this place. She's like, drop me a pin so I can meet you. I sent her the pin. And y', all, it's like two minutes from her place. And I knew, I mean, I knew then that I got it. Like, I was like, there's no way that I would get a place like this close to you and not even know that this was in your neighborhood. So that was crazy.

[A]

And you did it right before the pandemic.

[B]

Sure did, actually, because I'm in December of 2019. You're absolutely right. I forgot that it was a little earlier.

[A]

Yep. Because you signed at least 11. 11.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

20. 19.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you know what's weird is, remember

[B]

I had gotten Covid in December.

[A]

We were in San Francisco.

[B]

Yes. We were all traveling and touring together, getting grown, and Friend Zone had, like, a mashup tour. And I got so sick on that trip. I was, like, in the hotel room trying to figure out I was going to get back to New York because I didn't want to be on the plane sick or getting people sick. It was bad. And then I realized I had an early form of COVID which is crazy to think about.

[A]

You did you, Antoinette? It was a lot of you all who had it. And I was like, oh, this is the.

[B]

Yeah. We were like, what kind of flu is this? This one's sticky.

[A]

What's going on? Are you okay? Do you need garlic?

[B]

It was so crazy. But, yes, I missed our Brooklyn. And then. And then Crystal moved to Brooklyn. Like, we were just a little.

[A]

To Brooklyn. Oh, we were. It was the perfect time for the pandemic. It was the safest time. Dustin still won't let let us live it down. Then he didn't let him be able to come over. And I was like, you weren't. Because you was in these streets. You and Cynthia, like, y' all was at weddings.

[B]

Okay. At the club in Atlanta. And he would have people tweet us. Let Dustin in. Let Dustin in.

[A]

And you are complicit every. Jail for everybody.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Jail for everybody. But I'm so glad you're here with me. I. I just want to tell you all, make sure you tune into the Patreon where you get the full video version of this podcast. You all see Fred every week as it is on the Friend Zone, but this new lighting isn't good. Let me tell you something. Fran is in a Netflix show right now, Okay?

[B]

I told you. I was like, how can I look like I'm on Love Jones while I record?

[A]

No dead ass, Fred. I told Fred. I said, oh, you're in a free form TV show right now. I do. We have teenagers shout out to Spike. Shout out to Spike with his little irritating ass today.

[B]

Today we're talking about Tyra.

[A]

Today we talking about Tyra. Okay? Top Model Reality Check came out as you all last week. As you all are listening to this. If you're anything like me, you were waiting for this documentary. And if you're anything like me, you said okay once it was done. But I was an avid Top Model viewer in the early days. I think I watched maybe through Cycle seven.

[B]

I don't even remember how far I watched, honestly, because they all kind of blur into each other after a while.

[A]

They absolutely blur into each other. Absolutely. Because this particular. When I was watching this one and I would see the. The girls are who tell me whether I watch that season or not.

[B]

I remember her like, I'm like, okay, what season was she on? Because I did watch that one.

[A]

There's your toxic millennial trait. That's what me and XD discussed last week. You're talking. You are the same as me. She's always Eva Pigford.

[B]

That's how I met her.

[A]

That's what your mama named you. That's what I'm calling you. Problematic.

[B]

So we saw.

[A]

We are so old. But before we get into it, Fran, how was your week? You been.

[B]

You know what? I've been really good. On a personal level, obviously, the world is crumbling, and sometimes it's hard to feel like you're doing okay, but on a personal level, I'm doing really well. I've just been taking really good care of myself, you know, getting my sleep in, getting my good meals in, getting my. Yeah, just Franting super hard, though. Just. Yeah, just really, really looking forward to the weather changing too, because spring is like peaking. We're getting those days where it's a little sunnier, you know, it's a little warmer. So I'm kind of excited. This is my favorite time of the year, the transition from winter to spring, because you just feel like the relief of having gone through another one. So kind of my favorite time of the year. So I'm excited. I feel good.

[A]

I realize I actually love all the. All this. The seasons changing. Like, I appreciate each one for what they are for sure. Now looking outside right now, you know, I. I would be calling myself a fool for this, you know, however many weeks ago that this started. But I do. I even enjoy the transition into winter. Like, I love seasons and I think it's beautiful to put one to sleep for a while and then enter the

[B]

next one step into the next one.

[A]

I just wish there was more balance in how long they stick around.

[B]

Right. Or the ex. How extreme some of them feel different years because was a pretty cold. This is a very cold winter, especially for us over here. But I do think that the older I'm getting, I'm appreciating the seasons a lot more because that for me, it was always summer. That's all I cared about. Especially being in New York. It's just the best.

[A]

Like cuz nowhere that nobody does summer,

[B]

I mean truly, I miss it.

[A]

Maybe, maybe Chicago, Chicago has a good summer, but we do have the best summer.

[B]

I mean it's unmatched. And so that used to be it for me, but now as I'm older, like you said, I actually appreciate what each season means as far as like your life. You know, like you kind of like stay home a little more in the winter, you're kind of reorganizing, reconfiguring, hibernating. That's when you and your family are kind of like planning whatever your goals are for the next year. Obviously spring, I think is when we wake up and start executing those plans that we set into motion, you know, the seeds we planted. And then summer is just fun and family and being out and, and being

[A]

present and enjoying life.

[B]

Yeah. And then the fall to me is just cozy. A lot of like family time with the holidays. So I love it. I think I'm, I'm starting to appreciate that. Each one definitely brings something nice, you know, something nice and there I can appreciate them a lot more.

[A]

Same I do, I love a season change.

[B]

Yeah, I'm ready.

[A]

Bring, I am. So I, Please bring spring because I'm, I'm fucking sick of this shit.

[B]

How was your weekend? How are you feeling?

[A]

How do I feel? Oh, I, I, I'm okay. You know, I've been talking to you all and I spoke to you about, you know, the babies that we are trying to get to. Good, stable environments. So thank you to everybody who has continued to send your donations. Every dollar is a, is help towards making sure that these kids get some stability. So I'm really grateful for you also. It's been a lot of that, a lot of logistics, figuring things out to make sure it's done in a way that's safe for everybody in every form and facet with this world that we live in. And you know, getting Noah acclimated to her new, her new little commuting.

[B]

I'm so excited about this.

[A]

Oh, friend.

[B]

As true blue New Yorkers, we really understand speaking of transitions. Right. Like that very specific rite of passage when your parent finally feels you're responsible enough to get on the train or do whatever it is, the bus, the walk, like that's such a big deal.

[A]

Oh, and it's all of it. It's the train, the walk and the bus.

[B]

Because she got it big.

[A]

Maybe she gotta walk, she gotta get to. And then today, you know, her, one of her little best friends is coming over for a Sleepover, because they're out of school this week. She goes, I'm gonna walk to the bus and go get her, and then we'll walk back together. And I was like, okay, I'll see you in a few. Let me know when you get there safely. And the other day, she was in Is. I don't know what it's called now. Obama Chicken. I don't know what it's called now, but it used to be a Kennedy's, and it was a Kennedy's right by where Tristan grew up. And so this is, like, right at the top of her commuting. So I still would go and meet her at the train. And so I walked there, and she was like, I'll wait for you in the Kennedys, and I'll just get some fries or something while I wait for you. And I. I had to hit Tristan. I was like, she's in the same Kennedy's you was in, like, when you was that age. And he was like, oh, that's crazy. That's crazy.

[B]

That's so trippy, man. I love this for her too, and the confidence that it'll give her, you know? Remember those days where you're like, damn, like, I'm low key, a little young adult.

[A]

I'm like, I'm independent. I can go from here to there. I'm gonna stop at the McDonald's.

[B]

Like, it just makes them feel so good, and it makes them feel happy that you view them as responsible. So that's the part.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And it opens up new conversations too, right? I have to, you know, have. We've always had conversations with her around awareness, and not in a panicky way, but just.

[B]

Just a very real life from New York. Absolutely.

[A]

Exactly. So, like, keep your head on swivel. You know what I'm saying? Make sure you, like, walk on these streets and not on these streets. If you feel uncomfortable, move like this. If you're feeling extra uncomfortable, I'm like, you act like Tyra Banks. I want you to go in there and scream and cry and play. No headphones on the street age, especially

[B]

because they live in their headphones.

[A]

So I know, and I need you. Your awareness is not built all the way up, though, because science, right? So, like, I just need you to take extra precautions. And, you know, then it's like internal work. You have to. You have to calm your own panic. You have to figure out how to release a little bit and trust that a. You have prayed over them like a still door. I'm like this little nigga is Fort Knox for anybody who's looking at her right now.

[B]

Right.

[A]

She is protected. So there's that. And then also that you've just done your job in trying to prepare them just for the streets in general. So it's frightening.

[B]

I know. Birdie is flying out of the net message. It's like.

[A]

It's frightening. Be well, my. My little princess. When you get back.

[B]

When you told me it was like the. Her first day, I was just like, oh, my God. I know you are going through it.

[A]

I know it such a big deal.

[B]

It's such a big deal for the both of you. I'm so happy this is happening.

[A]

Me too. And you know what? It gives me a little freedom too.

[B]

Yeah. It opens up a part of your day.

[A]

Like, that's helpful fucking hours in the morning is what it opens.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

Between commuting. Commuting back street cleaning, like, and then

[B]

as soon as you're back, you gotta go back to go get her. It's like it just go fast. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So I'm like, okay, well, this is good for all of us. This gives you what you need. This gives me what I need. And then, you know, it also challenges me to find new ways to connect new with her because our drives were our connection. We would do our music lessons and all of that. So I got sad for a second. Then I was like, no, it just means I have to pivot and be intentional in a different way in how I spend time with her. So transition theme of the episode. She going through puberty. I'm going through big lady puberty. It's crazy out here.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But I have intro'd you all enough. Let's get into reality check, and Fran and I are gonna break down episod 1, 2, and 3. Some of the themes. And I think it'll be a good setup because I know Kia wants to also discuss this, but she's going to come with a good academic brain with some of, like, the. The. The foundational themes that some of this stuff comes from.

[B]

Scholarly works.

[A]

Yeah. So. So let. We're going to discuss this from what we've seen and how we feel, and then it'll open up more conversation. We'll see in a second.

[B]

Hi, I'm Kaitlin Coleman, winner of Target's HBCU design challenge. This challenge moved me closer to my dream of becoming a fashion designer. Through mentorship and support. You can find my design, along with creations from other black founders, in Target's Black History Month collection.

[A]

Quick, choose a meal. Deal with McValue, the $5 McChicken meal deal, the $6 McDouble meal deal, or the new $7 Daily Double meal deal, each with its own small fries, drink and Four Piece McNuggets. There's actually, gosh, I'm just excited for McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Not bad. Hope for McDelivery. It's time for the kitchen table and friend Neuqua and I are here to discuss reality check. You watched it?

[B]

I did. Woof. I, you know, I didn't, I didn't. I didn't even know this was happening. I guess like people had been waiting on it. And then I saw the chatter. That's really what got me seeing it. I saw all the chatter, people breaking it down. I was like, wait, what are people talking about? So I go on Netflix and I see the banner and I said, wait, oh, this is such a. Because we watched that show. So it's like different for us, you know, like we were there absolutely real time.

[A]

And to. And to your point on that, not only were we there, but we were there in the same age bracket.

[B]

Right.

[A]

As these girls when this show first started.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's another layer too. I went and looked it up. I was like, when did this show start? Oh, three. 03. I was 18.

[B]

Yeah. 03. I was what? My. Was that my junior year of college? I think probably.

[A]

So what are you, 20 a couple years or something?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're about. Yeah. 20.

[B]

20.

[A]

So 20, 21, something like that. Right. All these girls were between 18, you know, fresh high school graduates and in their early 20s navigating this world. Exactly, exactly.

[B]

You're absolutely right.

[A]

You talking to two big booty ladies. Okay.

[B]

Modeling ladies. Never even not.

[A]

We're not the tallest of the bunch. And it was the reign of Low Rise Jeans.

[B]

Oh. Which I loved. I love mud. A mud flare jean. That was Low rise. And then when Mariah came out with the style that is cut at the top.

[A]

Friend. My personal hell. Really love that.

[B]

Yes. I look good in them.

[A]

Oh, what? Man's trash. Let me tell you something. I got my dad's. Oh yeah, exactly.

[B]

Is it high?

[A]

It's high as. I don't have a high. I have a big butt. Right. And it's a bubbly butt. I'm proud of it.

[B]

It's very bubbly.

[A]

But I also, in addition to that, because we did. We don't discuss. We discuss the butts, but we don't discuss the cracks enough. And my mother used to always clown me and my sister and be like, you all got your father's crack.

[B]

It's so funny. You get someone's crack. Like, thanks, dad.

[A]

It's. I got my dad's butt, first of all, which is really funny. My dad has a bubbly butt.

[B]

A gift. We thank you, Kane.

[A]

He doesn't have hips, though. But you do got a little ass. And then he has this, like, yardstick butt crack that I inherited.

[B]

Funny.

[A]

Is that so low rise jeans were really, like, probably. Oh, they were my middle earth.

[B]

Because you couldn't even walk in them without the crack. Yeah, I get it. I guess I never thought about the length of a crack. Like, mine must be on the lower side, maybe.

[A]

Maybe you have an average crack. I don't.

[B]

You know what? I have, like, a longer torso, too.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think it's also torso length does, you know, kind of affect that, like, how the jeans sit on your torso. I think that makes somewhat of a difference. Fashion people, help me out here.

[A]

Do I have a long torso? I don't have a short torso.

[B]

No, I don't think you have a short one, but I think I'm longer.

[A]

Like, you might be longer. I'm more legs and torso proportionate where some people. People have a longer one or the other.

[B]

Right, right. And so they worked for me. They worked well.

[A]

You had a great experience. No. Hell no. Do you know the. Do you know the Muffin Man?

[B]

Oh, busted.

[A]

Can.

[B]

And we love it.

[A]

I can't. And listen, this is not body. This is. I'm talking about my body. I know what the. I will look like in a parallel right now.

[B]

Are you kidding? My answer to everything now is, I'm 44.

[A]

Like, I got nothing to give you, babe. Nothing at all. I'm not even there yet. So this was the age of low rise jeans. This was the age of, like, the waif look, you know what I'm saying? What they called heroin chic, which I think is probably pretty problematic. Absolutely everything, this entire documentary. So let's just put that umbrella on it. This was a period of time where things were accepted in a different way, but it doesn't make them. It's not right, but it's okay. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Like, but I still hate that, though. I'm not gonna lie. I was seeing that on our. On our show of our episode. Excuse me. Of the Friend Zone this week. Like, remember when people would say the worst things on Twitter, and then when they get called out for it, the response is always, oh, yeah, I Don't understand. It was a different time. It was a different time. But I wasn't a terrible person then. Just like I'm not a terr.

[A]

And that's. I think that's the now. Was I at times an uninformed person or ignorant?

[B]

But even in us being uninformed, that had more to do. Like what you know or don't know. But we weren't like cruel. Like, you won't find me online talking about someone's weight, someone's skin color, someone's hair. Like, there are certain things that I'm like, we love to excuse, quote unquote. The times. You were just an asshole. And it was accepted at that time. You just have to be okay with that.

[A]

And that's why I said it's not right, but it's okay. Because I think we do have to watch these things with the lens. It doesn't stop you from cringing though, because again, like you said, even with the times, it comes from a foundation of cruelty. Absolutely. And it comes from a foundation of also survival. Right. You go back into racism, you go back into. Into women, especially black women, and how we've existed in society. And so we know why these things are the way that they are. But I'm glad that we have more information now on why they're fully not okay.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And even as I was watching this, because I remember. We'll get to it. So some of my first initial thoughts after watching the whole thing, and I want yours as well, they definitely made Tyra out to be the biggest villain. Tyra, I mean, is a. She is a villain.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

But they made her out to be the. The biggest villain.

[B]

Okay. And you don't think that that's fair?

[A]

I think that it is. I think that that perpetuates the same that has allowed all of this that we see unfolding and have seen unfolding for a long time. But from these Epstein files to, to. To what's happening in Sudan to what's happening in Palestine, the greater powers do not get the flack and the heat that they deserve to get. And so I like. No, Tyra absolutely was a part of that.

[B]

I see what you're saying, and I think that that is a very good point because I'm. I was like, well, yes, she is.

[A]

But you're.

[B]

But you're right, there's. There's when they kind of casually glazed over less moonvest. Remember the like head honcho that was like, no Latinas or whatever, the fast. So it's quick how he got a blurb, like a blip excuse and moved right on. And he's someone that. If you know anything about him as an executive, he's been in the middle of shit for a long time. And it's interesting that that wasn't highlighted. And even Kenya Barris, that was the next one mentioned. Interesting.

[A]

And he was part of the initial creative team, apparently.

[B]

Yeah. For like, if I remember correctly, I think it was like 10, 15 cycles. It wasn't like he was just the first couple episodes or something. Like, this was someone that was a part of the fab of the show. It wasn't even mentioned. And so this is interesting. You're right that the. The black woman is the one that everyone's killing when really everybody was problematic. Everyone was compliant. Yeah. And in making this machine run. Right. Absolutely. Complicit. That's the word I was. I was looking for. Complicit and compliant. So.

[A]

And I wanted to make sure that we put this at the top. Top before. Before we. We started discussing the actual episode, before

[B]

we started discussing her.

[A]

Because let's be clear, like, Tyra's nutty ass is gonna get it. Okay. I want y' all to know that right now. Like, she's gonna get it. Fran and I are gonna cloud. It's gonna be a good time. And also I wanted to make sure that that was put at the top of this because really, ultimately, it is. It is the larger systems. It is. Is these nefarious ass white men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who are really the problem in the nucleus as they have been for history.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I wanted to make sure that we pointed that out.

[B]

And even Ken Mock, who got to kind of like, he took a. A. He's taking a back seat to a lot of the commentary when he had a lot of power.

[A]

Oh, he got a bullet graze. And he also is right. I think he's right there. He might be right above Tyra, actually, on the villain scale, of course, because I think he was also a bitch to the ones we're talking about. But I think he had a great amount of control as well.

[B]

Absolutely. A lot of the decision making with production, you know, even that story with Shandy, that was a sexual assault, which we had no idea to now at this age to sit back and hear what actually happened, that we had no idea. And they made light of it and they did know what happened, so they chose Ken Mock what to air and whatnot and what got edited. And it's just interesting. Interesting as. As Tara was saying, the story, everything Has a story. And it's like, yeah, interesting, the stories that you chose. You know what I mean?

[A]

And also the manipulation of it too.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because remember, Shandy was talking about how. So let's talk. Let's break it. Let's get into Shandy. So for those who did not watch it, I don't know who wouldn't. But for those who didn't watch some youngins. Yeah. Well, no. Okay. Before we get. Okay, before we get into this, then that is how they actually kind of intro the documentary. Right. Or the docu series was Covid or as Tyra kept calling it, the 2020 lens. I was like, tyra, what? What? I was like, stop calling it that. Like Kobe was it. Yes, it was a great Turner, but things were already switching and people were understanding more of what was problematic and so forth. A little bit before COVID Co.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

You just mad that they didn't have to do and rammed your ass to death. I am imagining all the jinzes watching America's Next Top Model life. The whole horror of the.

[B]

That we found entertaining. I know they feel that way about

[A]

everything, and yet they want to be us with your chokers and your chunky sandals and your wide leg jeans, your bell bottoms. So we start off with this quote unquote, 2020 lens. And this is where Top Model got a reboost. Right. And Top Model was big. Like Fran and I said when, if, when it dropped. I know. Like, my whole family was invested in top.

[B]

Absolutely didn't miss.

[A]

My father included.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we were all invested. And some of my favorites. I was so glad that they got Ebony to come and appear for. For, for this, this documentary. I'm glad she agreed to it. Should I say? Because.

[B]

Right. Considering what she experienced. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. As a black queer woman who was low key. Outed.

[B]

Not low key. High key fully. Because apparently she had mentioned it in her application. It's not like it felt like this was discussed or that they were like, oh, we're gonna make this part of, you know, the story. How are you comfortable with it? Nothing. It was just like mentioned casually talking,

[A]

which is predatory, of course. Even if. Okay, yes, people can argue and say she provided the information. She's the one who put it on there. They would have never known it if she didn't say it. And also what we saw all up here through this, through this series and what we see all through reality TV in general is that that they will pray on your storylines, like, and there will be no transport. There will be no transparency around. How do you feel or any autonomy around how you want to discuss who you are or different elements of yourself.

[B]

Right. Or anything. Or any, like, emotional caretaking of some of any sort, you know, because like, she mentioned in the doc, that was dangerous.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

It was a dangerous position for her to be in, you know, to be outed. We didn't even know what her dynamic is with her family. Like, you didn't even.

[A]

That was the first thing I thought.

[B]

Yeah. You didn't even give her the opportunity to make that decision for herself. And. But the whole thing is exploitation. Right? Like, and in so many layers. All these girls were exploited daily on that show. And it's just crazy. It made me kind of like, I think of the ways that we are complicit because for us, we're just watching. And, you know, granted, we didn't know a lot of the things, but at the end of the day, what you do know is reality TV is based on exploiting people for their survive, like, survival needs. You know, these girls came from small towns, from inner cities. This is their one shot. They were looking to change their families. I think it was Danielle that said her brother's the one that told her, you gotta go on this show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And go like, this is your shot. Like, they viewed it as their one shot. And when you are stepping into a space where this is your one shot, like, in your mind, you may be more inclined to do things that, you know, you're not comfortable with. And it sucks that these adults that was supposed to be guiding them instead chose to exploit them, knowing that they were in on this show out of survival and desperation, you know, it sucks.

[A]

Yeah. And they did it in, like, multiple ways. Right. So if I'm jumping around just based off of how we're. How we're talking about talking, they exploited them in ways. So we. Let's. Let's talk about Danielle and the. And Joanie, the girls who had. Who had to go to the dentist and get their teeth.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

So Danielle, here she is. They tell her in this makeover challenge, okay, we're going to close your gap. You are not marketable with this gap, which I find to be insane. I think gaps are one of the most beautiful features. Yeah, I once upon a time did my dumbass went and got braces, but I wish I wouldn't have. Yeah, I closed it and I have a little one, but I like my grandma. My grandma has a pronounced gap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like an Esther roll gap. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

The little meaty thing in the Middle

[A]

with a little meaty thing in the middle. Exactly. And she passed it to a bunch of us because a bunch of my cousins had it. I had that gap. One of my closest friends that, like, you have. I love gaps. And I remember my mother telling me how beautiful it was. And I was like, no, girl, give me some braces. Like, I'm ready for this shit to be done. I can stick a quarter in between these teeth.

[B]

So I'm, like, considering getting Invisalign because my teeth are starting to shift on the bottom. And, you know, with age, your teeth move around. And I was talking to my dentist about it, just kind of getting in consultation, and he. The first, like. The first thing he asked was about my gastronomy app. You gonna close it? It's like, they just really view that

[A]

as the beauty standard.

[B]

Yeah. Like, yeah. And then. And I was just like, no, actually, I wouldn't close it, so. And I was asking him if that was possible to get Invisalign and not have to close it. He was like, oh, yeah, that's, you know, a sizing issue. He was like, it won't be a problem at all. But I just found it interesting that that was the first thing he assumed,

[A]

that she wanted to close your account.

[B]

Yeah, I wanted to close it because they try to get perfect teeth. Yeah. It's like, that's the first thing you have to do and saw on that episode. Danielle was saying that in the following seasons, they had a white girl, that they opened her gap more so she can look like Lauren Hutton. Which I'm like, I never saw that. I don't remember that season. I think I may have stopped watching by then, but that blew my mind.

[A]

That would piss me. That would piss me off.

[B]

You had this young girl on the verge of tears, basically threatening her, remember? Because she told her, you. You got a choice. Close it and stay. Leave it open and leave.

[A]

And literally, she said no. And then she. Then that threat came. The threat came after she left the dentist's office, and it was. She was bullied into that again because of what you were talking about with, this is your one opportunity. This is your one chance.

[B]

And she was so nasty. Yeah.

[A]

So the. The thing that stood out to me in all of that, too, was going back to us, talking about the predatory nature of them, isolating them from loved ones who can help them to make sound decisions. These girls were here before their prefrontal cortex were developed. Like you said, these were adults who were coercing them into these decisions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And with them Going to the dentist. Both of them said we had to sign a separate release going to the dentist. And they wouldn't allow us to call our parents or an attorney or anybody do that on site. And that's what.

[B]

I'm getting a snack. When they said that I missed a big part.

[A]

They said that. Yeah. So that.

[B]

That is.

[A]

And it wasn't like they emphasized. It wasn't like they stood on that point for very long. But it jumped out to me because I said that is predatory.

[B]

Yeah. These are babies.

[A]

Wow. These were babies making decisions for their life that they didn't even understand, like, what these things would do. You know, part of the docu series talks about the hazards that they had to endure on set. They had Bri shout out to Bri. She was one of my favorites too. I loved.

[B]

I love Bri. Her face is so pretty, isn't it? So pretty. It's so warm and lovely.

[A]

And she's so black and she's so Harlem, and I just. I just really enjoy her.

[B]

So I'm like, I love you.

[A]

You're like. You're a Harlem girl. But Bri, they had her running up in hills on a treadmill, and.

[B]

Oh, God, I remember that.

[A]

Had them swimming in water. You know what I'm saying? Whole dresses. You try. I'm trying to drown. Like, what are we doing right now? And it was with the shock value

[B]

and just that shock value part. As the show became bigger and more successful, they started having to, like, up the ante. Right. Like, make it more shocking, remember? And they said they. They damn near crossed over into fear factor there, which had nothing to do with my.

[A]

With the original premise of the show.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

It had nothing to do with it. And so we. So if we go back a little bit to episode one, when they talk about the inception of the show, it sounds very much like Tyra. Her vision was what. The what. The original what. What it was originally.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They did the go sees. They were actually pursuing true modeling careers. And she was showing them what goes on, goes on behind the scenes in the modeling world. Wonderful concept, right?

[B]

Never even wanted to be a model, but I was still totally fascinated. I'm always fascinated to see how people reach their goals. And so I was sold.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I love what. One thing that I did appreciate about this, and I appreciate in every documentary I recently rewatched, we need to talk about Cosby. I've mentioned it a couple times, but I. I mentioned it because I feel like it was such a well done documentary because it told the Whole story. It told the highs, it told the, you know, the milestones for black people and so forth and so on. And it did not shy away from who he was at as a person and also how that informed some of his work as well. I was like, no, give me the whole picture. You know what I'm saying? So I appreciated the fact that in this particular document, at the top of it, they talked about what the intention was for the show originally, and it sounded like Tyra was on that path. Say what you will, that's what she wanted to show. Now, did that include some problematic tropes as well? Absolutely. Because why didn't y' all feed these girls? If you want to change the fashion industry and how things are done and you want bodies to be seen as beautiful, why didn't you build in? No craft services for these girls.

[B]

Okay. And then there's them. And you know that a lot of them being malnourished, they're not sleeping well. That's also the psychological abuse that gives good tv.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And we've heard that before. Because they're not in their full mind, mind you. These are already young girls, so they're never in their full. No, exactly.

[A]

No, truly.

[B]

And then you're gonna add all these elements that can just, like, really hinder their ability to make decisions properly. I mean, a setup.

[A]

A lot of these girls said that they weren't going to bed till 3:30. I, you know, you know, I watched this, and then I went into a deep dive on the Internet to see what everybody was doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What they were saying. And so one of those things was, oh, we were going to bed at 3:30. They were waking us up at 5:30.

[B]

Imagine, to be on camera, no sleep,

[A]

no food, to be on camera not properly hydrated. And we saw that with all the different health things that were going on behind the scenes of the show. So. But her original intention for the show was. Seemed pure enough. Right. It was to give us what it was from the lens of, you know, where we were. And American Idol was fairly new. I think Kelly Clarkson was the only winner at that time. When this came out, I appreciated the ground up story of how they didn't have shit. Ken had to operate cameras because we know just having to do product. We know all of the. All of what goes into things when you don't have a budget. And I love that they showed that because as they showed the rise and what you were talking about with the fear factor elements and the survivor elements and all of that, it shows you that when you lose control of something that you love to people who literally only want to exploit it and gain capitalism off of is going to turn into something that's dark and evil. Evil eventually. It's just, that's just the nature of the beast. It's what it is and something.

[B]

And this is maybe me and my woo wooness but because you know, we've been talking. No, because it's just there's certain levels of success that I just feel like are just unnatural and there's just always going to be corruption involved and I guess it kind of ties into how people say like there's no way to be an ethical billionaire. Right. Because you have to exploit in order to get that to amass and hoard that amount of money. There's I don't know anyone that has done it without exploitation of some sort. And to me I success in the same way. Certain levels, obviously there's different markers, you know, of success, but certain levels because you're always going to be owned.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, like when you are moving that, that type of volume there's always owners, corruption, predators. There's you know, like how less moonvis imagine you got this show UP and running UPN9, which for us it was UPN9 in New York, barely had anything at that point. She comes in, ends up being the biggest, their runaway show and they still get to tell her, you can't cast a Latina, you know what I'm saying? It's almost like you never really.

[A]

You have to fight for a dark skinned black girl.

[B]

You have to argue where they, where Ken Mock was saying they damn near got physical like Tyra and Les and he had to tell her, don't forget who he is, you know what I'm saying? Like even though conversations and the small little successes that I have touched on that were higher up, you know, I just would always smell that there's a, there's a ownership that you have to be willing to lean into where you like. It's almost like the more you distort yourself, contort yourself, that's the more success you have. And before you know it, you completely lost. And I think the. Is that montage and this is jumping a little forward but.

[A]

Oh, it's fine.

[B]

That montage they played when everyone had gotten fired, right. And it was just Tyra, you see how she got crazier and crazier and crazier. It's like, it's like she was doing

[A]

anything,

[B]

I mean it was anything to keep that show going and to Me, that was such a perfect example of like, how much of yourself you have to be willing to lose in order to gain certain levels of success. And a lot of times that really is the trade off.

[A]

Well, even to your point earlier where you brought up LeBron, right?

[B]

He's owned.

[A]

I. And I had a 45 minute discussion with myself after I watched that clip. Like I was walking around the house for and doing laundry, sweeping, mopping, and I was like talking. They really asked this what he thought I said in the. The thing that comes out of your mout mouth is I've heard nothing but great things. Where have you been for the last almost three years, LeBron? Like, I am going off in this house.

[B]

So scary, right? Because this is, this is a superhuman of a talent. We have seen nothing like him. Probably won't ever see anything like him again. And he still has to bow down to whoever these invisible hands are. You know what I'm saying? Like, that to me, is why I'm like, like, I'm cool.

[A]

Yeah. Because. And that also. And I think I had this conversation recently, or I touched on it recently in one of our episodes in the past few weeks, you know, I have had a reckoning where I'm like, I don't. I don't know what tangible levels of like, monetary success I will reach because I. I just, I'm like, I don't. There's nothing y' all can tell me me that's gonna make me stop saying that certain is wrong. Genocide is wrong. I'm like, there's just. There's no way you can convince me to not say that. There's nothing you can whisper in my ear to make me not say that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so it's just interesting and it makes me wonder, what do these conversations look like behind the scenes for you where we get to a point where you got this black man who is also, he's. He's proven himself at different points. Let's be very clear. This ain't the only one. But. But it's a very black man who has, you know, he. We know he comes from Ohio and so forth. And so we know you know his black love. Exactly. And that's what comes out of your mouth.

[B]

And still. And you can, I don't know, I can't speak for him. I don't know the man. But I, in my mind, I was like, it's that bow down energy, you know, And. And you know what? I actually want to do an episode about this. I've been just figuring out that like how to do it properly because I do maybe want to bring on Tiffany the budget Nista to talk about it because you know, she talks a lot about success and varying levels of wealth. But as my money has grown as a businesswoman, I've noticed that the more my money has grown, there's certain fields I have to now start playing in that make you highly complicit in the systems that are keeping all of this shit going. You know what I mean? So like everyone tells, tells you you gotta invest, you gotta invest. You need a 401k, you need a SEP IRA, you need a Roth IRA. But then when you start really looking, okay, I get it, this is how my money will grow, right? But then you look at where your money is going into. You are the supply system for the materials for the surveillance, the materials for the bombs, the materials for the guns. And then so you can't really be an activist. But then your money is bankrolling the system, you know, and it's scary because this, this is, makes us feel like okay, but how else am I supposed to make my money grow?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

We still have bills and, and money inflates. So when I'm 60, 70, the money I have now is going to be much smaller because things, the cost of living is going to be astronomical most likely. I mean look how much it's increased just in the past like three, four years.

[A]

My sister from the old Taco Bell receipt, that's always.

[B]

Or old movie theater ticket or movie theater ticket. We used to go for like six bucks.

[A]

I want to say maybe for a period of time it might have been five, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Like even the train, the train. I remember when it was like we were flipping out cuz it was about to be $2.

[A]

$2, remember what 170 it is $3 dollars right now.

[B]

Crazy. I can't even imagine.

[A]

And you want to know o you want to know the other. If you don't buy that ass omnicar card and you, you, they're like oh it's. We made it convenient. You can do Apple pay at turnstile. Yeah. But you don't get no transfer.

[B]

Oh my. You see, and you're like oh this is easeful. But it's just taking more money from you and the average person don't have $6 to be going back and forth. And so this is what I mean about how success becomes so tricky because you really do have to feed into it and it's the way that it's designed and it's put me in such an interesting position, right? Because I'm like, like, okay, I. I talk all this about being community centered and heart centered and ethical, as ethical as it could be, right? Because I also have an iPhone. I also have a MacBook.

[A]

You know, we said, no, we. I'm sitting up here on seven Apple devices. I'm gonna be real with y' all right now.

[B]

It's like I would have to be living in the woods off grid to truly be an ethical person. And so I think we try our best with what we can do, you know? But I do think about what is my money investing in as it grows for me to be a wealthier person. I'm, like, taking away from other people. And it just has always felt uncomfortable for me. And I'm having these combos with my financial advisor, and he's cracking up because he's like, girl, what?

[A]

He's like, I sold that part of my soul, you know?

[B]

He's looking at me like, who the cares do you know the return 18 on your money? Like, he's looking at me like, you're it tripping. And I understand, but at the same time, it's like, I. I'm trying to understand how do we progress, you know, because we're like backpack rappers. You know, the backpack we have on

[A]

a pair of Y3s, okay? We got on these 275 sneakers. Some a lifesave, okay, Talking about the man. But we still got these white threes on our feet and these skinny jeans.

[B]

It's just so much of trying to figure out how to be a good person. Because the way the world is set up, you are complicit in so many ways. It's so dark.

[A]

I remember I had a friend named Sam shout out to you. I. I don't remember. It was some. Something going on in the world at the time, right?

[B]

As always.

[A]

And I'm young. I was probably 18, okay, 18, 19 years old. Now it's like 16. Sam, what if. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I start spewing whatever my. My theory was at the time, I don't. That was unimportant. It was Sam's response to me that has stuck with me for all of my days. He said, I'mma stop you right there. I don't want to hear no more, because if I hear more, I'm going to know. And then I got to do better about it, so I'd rather just not know. And I remember being like, that's the dumbest shit. And it is right It's. But it's all not necessarily dumb, but it's real. It's not necessarily dumb. It's selfish, right? It's willful ignorance. It's choosing to bury your head in the sand to keep you. And on the other side, as a person who literally has these, these conversations with self every day, like, you think you a real bitch, but you're not really a real bitch because you, you

[B]

know, like, oh my God, why is that such a honest.

[A]

I know you need these pants right now. You better not go to Zara. I don't care how hungry you are. McDonald's the only thing in the vicinity. You better not go to McDonald's. They support the IDF like I.

[B]

And that. And you know what? That's what makes me kind of tying back to what you were saying about Tyra. That's what kind of, on a, on a human level makes me feel for Tyra because she was a young black woman as well, who had also had to go through what we probably don't even know the half of what she went through in the industry to make it. It as a supermodel. And this is her way of also trying to ex, you know, be an expansive person and progressive. And. And you, like you said, she had her goal of being more inclusive. Black women, women of different heights, of different body sizes. Like, she came in with an agenda. And that usually happens right where you come in, heart centered, you have this intention, wide eyed, wide eyed, bushy tailed. And then it is like, oh, okay, if I want to play at this level, I'm gonna have to make some concessions. And then those concessions just get bigger and bigger and bigger and. And unfortunately that is the system up there. You know what I'm saying? And that's so. And I feel for her because she is the fall guy in a lot of ways, but she's also like a willing fall guy at this point. She wasn't even accountable. She wasn't even like, y' all are up. This is my. You know, I almost wish you would have said, said, y'. All. Let me tell y', all, y' all know what I've been through. I was just trying to do something great. I. That, you know, like, just keep it real. Like, because we all are up. We are all up and trying to figure out how to do this thing. And I almost rather her just be. Join us in the chorus of us saying, how do we work in this system? You know what I mean? She.

[A]

She can't because she got lost to it too long ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the places where she quote unquote took accountability in this were like very obvious things. Right. And even then, it was not real account. It was not full 100 accountability. When it came to Shandy, it was very much like first, first when they asked her. When they first asked her. Tyra. Okay, let's talk about Shandy. Do you remember Shandy and she did that?

[B]

Oh,

[A]

you remember the Shand and the doing.

[B]

I, I'm trying to.

[A]

I just, I don't want to talk about that right now. So her Inspector Gadget jacket

[B]

and her Victoria Secret push up bra.

[A]

I mean Shaka. Shaka Khan. Shaka Khan. Titties on the neck. Do you hear me? Titties on the neck.

[B]

My God. Titty day.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Learn [e-mail] do that with Acrobat. Upgrade your bathroom routine with the Cottonelle cleaning duo. Their toilet paper and flushable wipes feature cleaning ripples designed to help you come clean. Using them together leaves you feeling cleaner and fresher than dry toilet paper alone. Cottonelle gives you that kind of clean that makes you want to come clean about everything else. Like admitting you've been rocking press on nails since 2008. It's the clean that boosts your confidence and keeps you feeling fresh all day. Just to wrap up that point around ending up being complicit in systems that even you don't want to be a part of or know you're a part of. I want to talk about the Jays for a little bit and Nigel, because listen, was I endeared to the Jays, of course, especially Ms. J.J. alexander.

[B]

Absolutely was Latino this whole time. That blew me to learn he's South African.

[A]

Porter. I thought he was Puerto Rican. I don't even think he was Puerto

[B]

Rican because I, you know, I could kind of sense who is for the most part. But he gave me something, you know what I mean? Something Central American. I don't know, but I was like,

[A]

oh, he could give, he could get a little Central American. Well, as a person who come who has some Central American looks, he too tall and slim, I told you, my grandfather is shaped like this microphone. Okay. He's about as tall.

[B]

Can't with you, but yes.

[A]

No, I definitely thought he was Latino for sure. Now I'm be people. Like, I didn't know he was black. I didn't know he was black. I said words, mean things that said, said, I'm not white. And he said.

[B]

And he said, and we will be back there.

[A]

My parents are from South Africa and I am aware of apartheid. And I said, what does that really mean?

[B]

Tell us more.

[A]

Jay, does anybody in your family identify as an Afrikaan with three K's? I'm just curious.

[B]

Is Elon in your lineage?

[A]

Do you know that, nigga? So where were your parents? On the side of Nelson and Winnie. I just need to know. So I. But. But with Nigel and the J's, as much as we were endeared to them and they were absolutely a staple of this show, this also was evidence that they were also part of being complicit. Even in times where they can call out like, I didn't want to be a part of that. But you still did it, right?

[B]

I know. And this is what sucks, because it's like, it's a job. You're just trying to get ahead. It's kind of like what we're saying. You just so in these systems. Because you're just trying to get ahead. Like, this is their dream. What a dream. You are on a highly successful runaway show that you guys created together that you're friends. You. You were friends. This isn't a show where people just got put together. These are your actual people. Like, what more could you chose for?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

What more could you imagine?

[A]

Well, we have

[B]

us being given, like, a TV show and then it being a runaway hit as a free friend group. We're gonna fight for it. And I. And there is a sadness in, like, you know, having to battle politics, like, but that's also the reality of business.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Because we deal with that on this much smaller scale all the time. The way that people try to twist you because they want. They know that you have an impact on. On certain parts of your community, and they can push certain agendas and narratives through you being this online Persona. Right?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

There's levels to it. And I. I just.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I think this is why there's always that part of me that's like, I just want to get my farm.

[A]

I know. Oh, speaking of which, you know, who's living like that?

[B]

Who.

[A]

Now she has some really problematic ideologies. Let's be clear. But as I was doing my ohes. Do we want to do that this episode? No, that's not. Do you remember the first winner, Adrian? The one who ended up married? Huh?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Peter Brady.

[B]

I for sure. Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

Oh, yeah. There was a period to Peter Brady, and then it was really bad. They had a reality show, and now they're not.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But as I'm looking up all these ladies, like, like, what they doing? Where they at?

[B]

Yeah. Where are they now?

[A]

Adrian is living this, like, trad wife now. She's still very much herself when you listen to her talk. She's very much herself, still very outspoken, still very anti in many ways.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it's not killed her about everything that is. I. Teetering.

[B]

Teetering.

[A]

It's. It's teetering real. It's teetering hard because there's. She'd be like, yeah, America. And then also though, like, she says other things where I'm like, well, that would go against you being a Trump supporter. So I don't. I'm confused. So I don't give. I. I'm not saying one way or the other.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they're always guilty until proven innocent. My eyes. You know who. But she's living like this. Not completely off the grid, obviously, because you're online, you're making.

[B]

We see you on Tik Tok.

[A]

You're on Tik Tok. You're like Montana's number one Avon lady. Like, she's. She'll be on there making. She'd be like, look at my cake. I made. Like, you're not off the grid. Right. But she's like, living off the grid.

[B]

Ish. Right.

[A]

In the sense where she's like, I've chosen to have this quiet life with my. With my man. And I fish and I hunt and I cook and on from that particular vantage point, I'm like, I can't be mad at it.

[B]

I cannot be mad at it. And I get torn all the time because as someone on some, like, started from the bottom. Now we hear energy. It's like, I love that I, like, you know, started from where I started from. And then I saw all this success where I can, like, I have this beautiful house and Lear Drive, got my first car. Like, there's certain freedoms that you're just like, wow, I did this. Like, what a blessing. And then you want more.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. You're like, I have tasted peace.

[B]

Yes. I'm like, I love this. I love that I can do for myself. And then you Want to make that expansive. You want that to last. You want. You know, and then we do a lot of things to. To try to ensure that, but it's just like. It just starts getting so tricky.

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to talk a little bit about sh. Shandy. We didn't. We. We said we were gonna talk Shandy. We didn't really talk Shandy. And this goes back to, again, the predatory nature of all of this and the exploitive nature of all of this. It was so crazy watching some of these scenes because I also remember we didn't. I think TiVo came out around this time. Right.

[B]

Like, we were.

[A]

It was. And that is a precursor to the dvr guys.

[B]

So I didn't even have T. That was like a privilege.

[A]

I didn't have T. That was just an existence. I just knew it existed. Right, right. So once we watch this.

[B]

Yeah, it.

[A]

That was it. Unless there was maybe a. A marathon on one day and you happen to catch it. But also during this time, we were also outside.

[B]

We were living and licensing was very different. Right. Because it's not like you were going to go stream it somewhere. You can go. You look it up on YouTube or find clips on a random. Maybe you could find a random blog because sometimes they would rip TV shows like those.

[A]

You know how I am with technology. I didn't know no blogs at the time. I didn't know no blog. I watched this when it came on, whatever day and time it came on, and then that was it.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

But watching these scenes again, such as that scene immediately, like so many scenes of the show, I was like, damn, I remember. Damn, I remember that. Damn, I remember that. I remember her.

[B]

Oh, shit.

[A]

Oh, I remember her. I remember. This is what I thought about this one. What's she doing now? Oh, she's maga, so.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So many MAGA girls, friend.

[B]

Not surprised.

[A]

The Shannon girl. Do you remember Shannon? I remember being like, Shannon, Shannon was season one. She had those big teeth. She was in the. She was in the documentary. She had on the suit. She looked like a preacher's wife.

[B]

I do remember. Yep. She was like, yeah, okay. I think I remember.

[A]

Remember she is a preacher's wife. So I went and looked him up. You already know full maga, but she was also play. They played up her virgin. Her virginity. They played up like, they played up her innocence and all of that being

[B]

the kind of like the white southern bell, the small town. Pretty. Yeah, I'm not.

[A]

I'm going to wait until I'm married. I. So I went and looked her up. That girl waited until she was married. Now she does her testimony, she does one of those MAGA testimonies, and she's like, I cheated. I committed adultery, but God gave me a second chance. And now I'm with the love of my life. And we started our own church. Oh, girl.

[B]

What? I mean, how can we be surprised? A white Southern bell. I mean, what, right?

[A]

What do you expect? I was shocked when I found out who wasn't magus.

[B]

Right, girl.

[A]

But back to Shandy, I remember also. So I liked Shandy, right? I felt for Shandy. The way that they portrayed Shandy, which was very intentional because we learned a little bit about her background and where she came from and the way that her parents weren't really checking for her like that. She was never really supported. I remember she worked that late duckling.

[B]

And I remember that we love the ugly duckling. Like the girl at Walmart that someone discovered. That's like the Julia Roberts Pretty Woman.

[A]

Pretty Woman.

[B]

You know, like, it's just like, look how she stepped in to this high life, high fashion New York, you know?

[A]

And remember too, at this time, the movies, all of them would have that ugly duckling to pretty girl transition when it comes down the stairs, right?

[B]

They give him the Farrah Fawcett hair and lighten up the blonde a little bit.

[A]

Yeah. They're like, look at me. Took their glasses off. The Stephan Arkel effect. Like, they love that storyline. And so I think we were all endeared to share Bendy because. And she also. You could tell she has a pure heart, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She was really doing this, you know, because she was encouraged to do it.

[B]

A way out.

[A]

She's like, all right, like it. A way out. I don't want to work at Walgreens anymore. The way that they preyed on her. I. So again, back to our conversation about being complicit but also like, being left to, like to no choice. Choice because of your survival. When she talked about the boom.

[B]

The.

[A]

The mic person and the camera person having to film her while she delivered this news. And she is devastated and broken. And they apologized to her afterward. I know, I know. They felt horrible having to do that

[B]

and still aired it.

[A]

Horrible and still aired it. And Ken speaking about. About it in a justification kind of tone by saying, well, we told them this was going to be documentary style.

[B]

Even they said they were like following them to the bathroom. When you went to the bathroom with

[A]

the loopholes, oh, well, it's two people instead of one. So we can watch It. And you all knew these underage or not underage, but you all knew these young adult girls.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You knew they were in situations where they didn't have any control. You knew they weren't eating, you knew they weren't hydrating. You knew they were drunk off of wine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the story. This is where they started talking about the story being more important than what the initial objective of the show was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was really up. And then to continue to exploit it by bringing her on that wonky ass talk show that you had.

[B]

Oh my. I was just telling Dustin that I was like the girl crazy part about this is that we ain't even getting to the Tara Banks show.

[A]

The fat suit, the house listed.

[B]

Oh my. The homeless. The homeless. Like, bro, we didn't even get. And so for the. For her to bring Shandy on to exploit her again. And then. And then 20 years later and. And don't quote me on this because I don't know this as a fact, but Adrian Curry, actually the model from season one one, she said that none of the girls were paid to be in this documentary.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I saw that.

[B]

And they were supposedly told, oh, no one's going to be paid. Like, it's just, you know, just took archive that, you know, like a time capsule. But all the judges got paid, so you're still exploiting 20 years later. That's crazy. What have you learned?

[A]

And y' all are still lying because I saw that same thing and I don't think they did get paid because we know how this was works. Then J. Manuel came through and was like, that's false. I didn't get paid for this. So I'm like, somebody's lying. Okay,

[B]

See, it's like, what is going on?

[A]

You will never know the full truth of this. We didn't get. Obviously Janice Dickinson has been passed. But what I also found out. Yeah, she died.

[B]

Hold on. Oh, I didn't know that.

[A]

Janice Dickinson will Hutch also another nutty one, man.

[B]

Listen. And Asante was saying that she used to come to his restaurant.

[A]

Did I just kill that lady?

[B]

That's. I was like, I never heard that.

[A]

Oh, nope. Retraction.

[B]

You said. Whoops.

[A]

Oh, my bad. She is fully alive, guys. My God.

[B]

How old is that lady now?

[A]

71. Okay, I know that cuz I just looked. She's not dead. She's 71 years old.

[B]

Whoa. I wonder if she's gonna put out a statement, cuz that was ugly.

[A]

Okay, so that's what I was about to tell you. There's another. Another program coming out with more sides that Tyra is not involved with.

[B]

Okay, wait, more sides about Top Model specifically?

[A]

About Top Model specifically. I think it's coming out on E. Okay.

[B]

I wonder what's making all of this happen right now. Like, what is like a full assault?

[A]

Oh, well, I think it is because if we, if we go to the very end of this thing, they announced cycle 25.

[B]

I mean, she did say that, but it's like, it's also Tyra. Like, we don't know. But also, of course, like, why else would they do all this? And I said the same. I'm on Friend Zone because I hadn't. When we recorded Friends on this week, I had only watched the first two episodes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I was still a little clueless on the endings and, you know, certain wrap ups. And then Dustin was. And I said on the show, I have a feeling this is like a rollout for cycle 25. And then boom. Dustin was like, actually, that's exactly what she says.

[A]

End of cycle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cycle 25.

[B]

Yeah. Guy showed me the clip, actually, where she was like. And we wait till you see what we have in store for cycle 25. I'm like, Girl, that sounds like a bad idea. After all of this, the way is being received. Unless they're gonna just like completely rectify.

[A]

How do you do that?

[B]

What do you know? That looks like. Exactly.

[A]

How do you do that? Because we haven't even gotten into. And we've been talking for over an hour. We haven't even gotten into all of the unhinged photo shoots these girls had to perform.

[B]

Black face.

[A]

The black. The mixed. The two mixed. Oh, you're gonna be East Indian and indigenous girl.

[B]

What are we holding right now? Holding black babies.

[A]

Black babies got milk. Put this afro on. We're gonna plump up your lips. Yes, Jaquesha. Like, what. What is this? And then the eating disorder photo. Photo shoots.

[B]

Oh, wait, I didn't see that.

[A]

They had a. They had an eating disorder photo shoot. They had a girl. They had like, they were. One had bulimia and they had her with like oatmeal or whatever. Fake throw up all over. And she was. Yes. Then they had the.

[B]

The gun violence one that Dustin told me. I didn't. I hadn't got that yet. But yeah, when the girl's mom had just died and then she was like, oh, maybe this is a coincidence. But then she kind of was like,

[A]

she's not even dead. Her mother is paralyzed, so she's still living. They knew that they Knew that from her of her initial interview.

[B]

That's dark.

[A]

And that's what you all do down the line is have this girl portray herself as a gunshot victim. That's insane.

[B]

Totally. Just trigger her and hope that's.

[A]

And she didn't get. And she didn't give them the good TV that they wanted.

[B]

Wanted.

[A]

So they. They eliminated her that week.

[B]

Of course. Girl, we ain't got used to you.

[A]

That's nasty. That's nasty. That's nasty work. So, you know, there were so many things we have jumped around all over this thing.

[B]

I mean, that's how everyone else is watching it too.

[A]

I was like, wait, but. And it was also because of how they did it. Right? Because I feel like they were bringing themes back up as they were. They were trying to tell people's stories

[B]

and also kind of weaving in and out of each other.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Like Kenya. Kenya with the. The male model that was inappropriately touching her. And they kind of looked at her like, girl, we have a whole team here. We all traveled here. We don't got time for your discomfort.

[A]

Also.

[B]

And this is her.

[A]

Pause that for a second. No, because we about to talk about that. Can we just talk about the shoot really fast before we even get into it? They were doing this. Who was it?

[B]

The Maasai?

[A]

Maybe it wasn't the Maasai tribe. They had them two white men with them loincloths.

[B]

Yo, what's. Yo.

[A]

This is crazy.

[B]

For those not watching, all these random visual effects keep happening. Fireworks, balloons. I'm, like, trying to keep her safe.

[A]

They've seen it on the J. Next Patreon, but I forget that certain ham do certain things. And I gesture is what I do. They had these two white men and this West African man in these loincloths and cowrie shells. What are we doing? What was the vision? And then. And then. Yes, to your point. Keith Senior was vocalizing how uncomfortable she

[B]

was on the set, which is already hard to do. Right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

At work, you. There's a part of you that's like, I don't want to this up, but at the. You know, you're already warring internally. And then she finally was like it because she said she asked herself, what would Tyra do?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And no one cared.

[A]

Nobody. Nobody.

[B]

And he kept touching her.

[A]

Jay Manuel.

[B]

Right. He was a man called culprit. Because he looked at her. I don't know. It could have been that. You know, things also can be edited in a weird way. We don't know if that's the face he made or if they put that in. But let's say in the off chance that is how he looked at her. It was just like the photo they used was the one of them touching her. Like, come on, bro.

[A]

It was. They. It was real nasty work behind the scenes. And also the whole storyline of trying to make her feel bad about her body, you know, by playing up that.

[B]

That snack her over snacking, which she was saying that the way they were editing was like the same piece of snack. But they kept making it seem like she's just been eating all day. Just weird.

[A]

Just weird shit. Making her be an elephant. Maybe gluttony. Right? And that's not to say that something is wrong with fat or anything like that. But. But that. That girl was a slim girl who was also at the peak. And all you all did was focus on this little baby belly that she had, right?

[B]

Because it wasn't even the fatness. It's the fat phobia that she had to phobia, right? And the constant pressure. And like you said, these girls already were dealing with eating disorders. And then having Janice Dickens, whatever her last name is telling.

[A]

That works, right?

[B]

It's addict. I don't know. Telling people to lose 100 plus pounds. Like that's crazy.

[A]

She did it to Takara. I was. I was sad we didn't get Takara. Cuz I was like, I would love. But I also understood the girl.

[B]

I ain't got time for that.

[A]

She. Takara is somewhere doing her qigong on the beach.

[B]

I was going to say Takara is on Runyon Canyon. That's where I see her. So sometimes getting her run on. She ain't messing with any of you.

[A]

She's not. She's like, oh, I had my time. I'm moderately successful now and the girls still love me. And we do. We love Takara. And I love how Takara used to speak up. But Takara did definitely set the stage absolutely. For Noah just came in here. Top modeling.

[B]

I love kids. They're just like, it's my world. You're just living in it.

[A]

They don't get give a that 20. Remember that. That clip in 2020 where that white man was doing his interviews on the news and the kids just come flying in on their little airplanes and walkers.

[B]

That was so classic.

[A]

And then the wife come in and then the dog.

[B]

It was like, holy, man, get a lock.

[A]

Kobe was crazy.

[B]

That was so great. I forgot about that.

[A]

Oh, they don't give a. Anyway, back to I don't even know what I was saying, oh, Takara, Takara. Yeah, she spoke up but she, she's not trying to have any parts of this evil. Wasn't trying to have any parts of this Yaya. A lot of these people just want to move on with their lives.

[B]

It was such a small blip in their story. Yeah, I get it.

[A]

But I also hate that it was a big blip for others.

[B]

For others. Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But she also knew this was some. But she was forced I think.

[B]

And then the other, the white girl said she still has pain in her teeth cuz they didn't even do proper dental work. That blew me. So you didn't. Not only are you going to do dental work, but then you going to. You didn't even do good dental work that she can't get fixed. Cuz we all know dental work is expensive.

[A]

Expensive. And mom was a construction worker.

[B]

What?

[A]

And she said she's like. And I. And she was also. She was very both in. She was like listen, my shit was fucked up. It was crazy. I never thought I'd be able to get those extra teeth out of my head as it was. But on the other side of things, y' all OD'd. Y' all OD'd.

[B]

And you're in there for hours like yeah, no it was for TV and

[A]

Having her perform a photo shoot where

[B]

she was suffering from pain. I mean, but I don't wanna pull you from where I think you were going, where you were saying the physical pain. Were you about to go into the stigma that of the show where the models couldn't work because you were saying Danielle not only dealt with the physical pain, but then when she was crying about not being able to get any work and. And Tyra knowing this. Right. And not help.

[A]

And acknowledging it. And acknowledging it. And it was really telling. Thank you for bringing me back. Because you notice adhd.

[B]

No, I knew where you were going. I was like, this is a good point.

[A]

But she.

[B]

And.

[A]

And so, yes, for those. If you have not seen it, Danielle, which was one of the models who. 1. She went to go to New York to live in the model house. Right. And for context, she's in a model house with Chanel Iman among many other girls. And so all these girls are getting booked, all these girls are getting shows, all these girls are getting work. And it was Chanel Iman who went to their agent and was like, yo, why she always sitting in the living room? Like, you all don't call her to shout out to let her do anything.

[B]

This is so. It's like an of graphics. I'm like, what's coming next? But I was gonna shout out to Chanel Iman for even caring to ask and then coming back with the information, you know?

[A]

Yeah, that sucks. Let me. At least it gives you a reason. Right. But it didn't make the sting any less. So Danielle said that she had a stigma on her because of Top Model, and a lot of people didn't want to use her in their shows or their campaigns because her presence of being in the show might take over. Over their garment or their line or whatever their work is for that particular thing.

[B]

I don't care. She's so beautiful.

[A]

She's so. It's striking.

[B]

When she came on the screen, I literally went, oh.

[A]

And she looks. She still looks so good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, she is beautiful.

[B]

But there. But then there are models that. That did cut through. That's the part that I'm not understanding, like, why it was such a stigma for some and not for others. Right. Because then you see, like, Winnie Harlow and then there's a white model. Me, for not remembering her name. I just saw, like, a tweet highlighting that. Apparently there was another white model from one of the later cycles who is, like, a huge muse for like, a lot of. Yeah. And she's like, one of the Bigger success stories from America's Next Top Model. So I'm like, I wonder what it is, you know, that it just didn't pan out for everyone.

[A]

You know, I think it's actually just like chance, right? I think it's the same thing with anything. Many people are in one field. Some people are grossly successful, some people are not.

[B]

That's true. Cause even with our field, right, it's like there's levels to it. So.

[A]

Absolutely. You know what I'm saying? I've been in this shit. I'm still here in Flatbush. And some of these niggas came on the scene a year ago and shout

[B]

out to them, this is not shade. But like, really what it is, they

[A]

have bursted through and it's like, I, congratulations. I don't know. Shout out to you.

[B]

No, it's true.

[A]

I tip my hat. Know, cuz, this is hard.

[B]

It's so true.

[A]

I hate that she. Now, granted, also, I didn't know Winnie Harlo came from America's Next Top Model.

[B]

I didn't remember that until they said it.

[A]

I was like, this was long after. I think this is long after we stopped watching.

[B]

No, totally had to be, cuz I don't even remember the season. Then people say, oh, but she came from America's Next Top Model. I think it was Dustin that said it. And I was like, oh, oh, word.

[A]

Okay. I had no clue.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think maybe Daniel. I don't know if it's because she was like a phenotypically phenotypical black girl.

[B]

Part two.

[A]

You know, look at the women.

[B]

We are saying, cut through. They still fit. A very certain look.

[A]

And so even Eva. Look at Eva. Yep, Eva got some. She is clearly black. But she also, you know, there's. There's some ambiguous features in there. People were always, oh, you got the green. Green eye.

[B]

Like, colorism is always gonna play a role.

[A]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what made this more gross was the fact that Tyra acknowledged it to her and acknowledged that she knew it was happening when it was happening.

[B]

That's the part that. And. And then. And you know, I thought about it because I was like, what could Tyra have done? But I think it's just the acknowledging it after the fact that it probably sucked. Cause it's like, oh, so you knew this was happening. You never called me, checked up on me, tried to sit with me to be like, let's figure something out. Nothing. It's like. It's just like, oh, yeah, girl, my bad, you know? But at the same time, what could Tyra have done? I do wonder what the answer to that is.

[A]

And I think to. To your. To that point, if the answer is, I don't know, that's more. Then maybe you should have kept that to your self.

[B]

Okay, this is helping me how, like,

[A]

coming to somebody after they were evicted and being like, okay, I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, back in 05, I could have paid your rent, but I didn't. Like what? Girl, you should have never told me that.

[B]

I feel you. It's like, how does this help me in this situation?

[A]

How does it. And maybe, maybe it had to be like this so that we could get this expose. Maybe, you know, Danielle needed to be able to bring that to the light so that certain things could be shown. Shown. But it also, it's hurtful and it makes you feel like, was my time wasted in this particular thing. It also brings you a sense of relief too, right? Where you're like, oh, it's not me. And I did nothing wrong in this scenario.

[B]

Right. This is really. I was set up.

[A]

Yeah, it was the system. It was the system. But there is a varying aftermath for many of the girls of this show. Some of them, it has done nothing, nothing for them. Others, they were like, it was a great stepping stone. And even though this is nutty, I'm also very grateful that I had this opportunity. You know, there's people like Yaya. I watched her. Her video recently where she was talking about her interaction with Tyra and how. Because let's be clear, Yaya was not in this. They gave Yaya hell for being pro black.

[B]

What?

[A]

And she gave them hell right on back for them being stereotypical and ridiculous.

[B]

And Yaya is my homie. She's one of my. She's one of my woohoo friends. My fellow friends. Yeah. And so I know she's always been like, very ten toes, you know what I'm saying, about where she stands, how she feels. And so, yeah, I'm not surprised she wasn't in this.

[A]

I. I'm not surprised she wasn't in it either. And I also, if you all go find that video on YouTube, I do appreciate her. Her. I like her viewpoint about. Because people were like, oh, why didn't you come on and call Tyra Alpha? Wah, wah, wah. And she said, you know, she gave a whole. A whole diatribe on forgiveness and what that does for you and your own spirit and how harboring that resentment for all that time so you can move forward so you can Move forward with your. With your life, and it opens up different things for you. And so sometimes they're.

[B]

Like I said, look.

[A]

And sometimes in that forgiveness, you don't necessarily get the acknowledgment or the accountability that you thought you wanted or that other people think you should get. But oftentimes, you know, once you release, it really does open so many doors and so many windows for you personally in your own journey, because you're not

[B]

at the mercy of whether that person is ready or not. You know, like you. Your life is going to move forward. That's a lot of why people choose to just forgive and know you let. Let go. Because I'm imagine, look how many of the girls are still sitting in this pain still, you know, like it's. It's like an arrested development.

[A]

Yes. And how it is literally hindered them.

[B]

Absolutely. They can even talk about it. They can't even fully talk about it without being, like, emotionally charged. And that sucks.

[A]

Yeah. Even Giselle. Giselle was talking about how she's just now getting back into her acting and her dancing and things like that. Yeah, you are hell held up for two decades because of this resentment. Now, let's also be very clear. All of this is very valid and justified. Right. Because this really was cruel. Very harmful. Yeah, very cruel, very harmful. And so all of those feelings are justified. But I do appreciate. I do appreciate seeing some of them being like, okay, you know what? I can't give it that much power anymore. And I've had to figure out how to do that. And I feel bad for the ones who have not had the opportunities to release that yet or have not had those tools to do so. So, yeah,

[B]

Kumbaya,

[A]

Noah. No sacred cows. Okay, I'll get rid of you, too. Oh, speaking of no sacred cows, we can start to wrap up up. Because as she kept screaming that in that third episode, no sacred cows. No sacred cows. No sacred. I was like, girl, stop this madness right now. You knew and you were a part of firing these individuals.

[B]

Can we talk about the fact that she was fired and replaced with Rita Ora, With Reed?

[A]

Did you even know that, friend?

[B]

No, I found out live while we were recording, and I googled it while Dustin talked about her being fired. And I said, fired? Who the hell replaced her? And he. He looked at me and said, you gonna have to look it up. Do you want to talk about shock?

[A]

And I did not know until I watched this. And I said, I know that's not who I think it is. Is that Rita Ora like, and then

[B]

it's funny because our listeners were in the comments, like, hold up now. Not too much because apparently she did a great job. I want to watch it. They said she did a great job and she may have, you know, we just.

[A]

And that's fine. I don't know. I will be ignorant.

[B]

Someone else also left the comment saying, in the words of Crystal, what is a Rita Ora?

[A]

And that's more of where I'm at. I just. I was like, is this lady a model? What does she do? Do? It's like she puffed up one day.

[B]

That's why I'm like, I don't know whose daughter she is. I don't know whose niece she is. Somebody that has been a guiding light. You hear me?

[A]

Look, I just was reminded again. Janice Dickinson is not dead. Okay, hold on. Rita Aura. Her name is Rita Sahachu or.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[A]

Okay. Oh, she is. Is. Okay. Modern day Kosovo is where she was born. All right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Early life. All right, hold on. Yugoslavian Albanian parents.

[B]

So then not an executive dad in la?

[A]

No. Where are your career beginnings? She started on a British drama series. Still don't see any modeling in here. Okay. Her father is. Oh, her father owned a pub.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

Nope, she's nobody. So I don't understand.

[B]

She's somebody. There's an invisible hand. I'm telling you.

[A]

And then, you know her name. Wasn't she. Wasn't that she rumored to be Becky with the good hair from Mad Long?

[B]

Was she? I thought it was.

[A]

It was all kind. It was Rachel Ray.

[B]

Rachel Ray.

[A]

It.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll just leave it right there. But yes, because the third one I think is actually who it was. And I. But I know that under different circumstances.

[B]

The baby hair brigade.

[A]

Yeah, I don't need them coming after me. If they came after you all talking about not too much arena aura.

[B]

Is a great comment. Put that on a T shirt.

[A]

Not too much Orito. And then, you know, these kids, you

[B]

know, the kids don't even write. Write. Not too much. They just write ntmtm friend.

[A]

What's the other one? Oh, it's something that starts with A O. I don't know. What?

[B]

No, the one that killed me was Ijbol. Like I J, B O L. What's that mean? It's like I'm just busting out laughing. I just busted out laughing.

[A]

What happened to LOL or lmao?

[B]

That's what I said. So you just added like four. Four more.

[A]

But we all for using a laugh cry emoji.

[B]

And I Kept seeing Isbull, Isbull, Isbull. I was like, what is that? And then my old ass tried to Google it and didn't come up. So I just asked him, what is it, Bowl? She was like, ew, friend. She's like, why are you asking?

[A]

That's like, when I. Did you. Have you ever seen Idgy?

[B]

What is it? Oh, like, I don't get it.

[A]

I don't get it. IDK. ID.

[B]

Nothing is worse than 6, 7. 6, 7. No one even knows what that means.

[A]

I'm gonna be honest with you. Nobody knows what it means, but I'm gonna be honest. It tickles me. And yesterday was one of the best uses that I saw of 6, 7. So I'm on a train and. And there's like, these. I guess they're like college ball players, but they're clearly visiting, right? So they're looking at the map. They're trying to figure out where they're getting off, so forth and so on. Maybe one of them is a New Yorker. So they're asking him. So they were like, how many stops till I stop?

[B]

Oh, God, no.

[A]

And the boy goes. And I giggled. I cackled. I was like, that was good. That was good.

[B]

You know what? You know what it looks like? Is there a version of when we used to do this?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

For those watching. How do you describe this? I don't even know how you describe it.

[A]

Where you pinch yourself fingers and then

[B]

put it somewhere so the person can look at it.

[A]

You'll be like, hey, look. And they look at you. Be like.

[B]

Like, to me, it's like the. The auditory version of this. The auditing.

[A]

I didn't even put that together.

[B]

That's.

[A]

It means nothing.

[B]

Oh, God, we're old.

[A]

It means we are. We are. I just. I don't think. We ain't got nothing else to talk about this. I wanted us to just kind of go over some of the themes that were in here, some of the ridiculousness of all of this, and also the true dark foundation of where a lot of this stuff comes from as well. And, like, how those puppet strings are pulled behind the scenes. Me and Fran talk about it often in many films.

[B]

I mean, true. Truly.

[A]

And you all see it like, yes, you got the tinfoil hats online. Who are like, oh, because. No, you.

[B]

They.

[A]

You know, they're doing things. But they are. They are doing things.

[B]

No, it's a lot of occult dark. I mean, we're seeing that now with the Jeffrey Epstein files being released. I think people are so shocked that it's easier to think it's not real because we don't even know the half of what's happening.

[A]

No, we don't and won't know the half. But also, people don't know their head history.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And if people knew more of their history, they will understand that this evil has existed for so long and this is just a regurgitation of the same that they've been doing, especially to us as a people. So you know the ways like you all being like this, it's crazy. They're not eating babies.

[B]

Oh, they're not. Let's pull up some files from slavery.

[A]

Hello. Right where they were eating humans. They're eating babies. Black babies. They are making black men fight each other.

[B]

Making dentures from our Tesla, Making stuffing for furniture. I mean, are you really like, come on.

[A]

Using us as test dummies for all of their medical procedures and like harmful, horrible medical procedures. You know what I'm saying? Sterilizing us as, as a community. Just so many things. So don't be tricked by how evil this can run. And that's why I wanted to make sure I started this off by talk, talking about those systems again. Because I'm like, do I think Tyra has fallen victim to a bunch of them? Absolutely. And also the other side of that is this gets so much bigger and so much darker than what we will ever completely comprehend and know.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And so, and you know, I had to bring my Woo Woo sister on and talk about it.

[B]

You know it. And you know what, let's send love to Ms. J too because I was really sad to hear about Ms. J being chronically ill. And it's awful that Tyra shot him a text. I was like, girl, you are not helping.

[A]

Also, why do you live in Australia, girl?

[B]

Cuz she has to run.

[A]

What you hiding from?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But no, I love Miss it actually. I'm glad you brought him up. I think at the time of this recording, he is walking again.

[B]

Oh, that's so awesome.

[A]

Yeah, I think at the time of the doc being filmed he was not able to. But since then I think he has started to get some of his walking abilities back.

[B]

That's a beautiful thing. Prayers and, and all, all the things that he needs.

[A]

So many good things. I loved Ms. J. I still love Ms. J. And even with everything we talked about with complicity and in the different systems and I think he definitely was also victim of some of that. You know, our, our old, old, our old gay men who have been around for some time, you know, they're just so necessary.

[B]

Ahead of his time.

[A]

Way ahead of his time. And I love his self assuredness.

[B]

We see all his children, you know what I'm saying? Like he was all these is my

[A]

son and he knows that.

[B]

Shout out to Nigel Barker. Being Sri Lankan. What I said, huh? If him and Jay Manuel just blew my mind.

[A]

No, I knew he wasn't full white. I knew he would.

[B]

I knew there was something, but I just didn't know what. You know what I mean?

[A]

I didn't either. And his spirit seems tender, right?

[B]

Yeah, maybe like, I don't know.

[A]

All right, Fair, fair, fair friend. No, his spirit seemed pretty.

[B]

No, honestly, when he said he went to Ms. J and held him, I was like, okay, you got me.

[A]

And the girls, the girls that also tell they. The way that they speak later on down the line tells you how things were. And I. They do speak about these problems. They speak about these people say. Cuz we watch Ms. J, J Manuel say horrible things to some of the girls.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And also, you know, as being a part of this industry. And also that's not where they're put. They're like, no, that's not my main focus. Like they weren't the ones who were really making my life hell. And I think Nigel's been one of the ones. The ones who stays in touch with a lot of the girls.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Later on. But again, like you said, we don't know what we don't know either. I don't put nothing past nobody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Man or woman.

[B]

Especially in these industries, child.

[A]

Especially Ghislaine. You raggedy

[B]

like funky Donnie would be like Jizz Lane.

[A]

That's what I usually call her. Just. Just laid. What a rotten, horrible person. I think, anyway, I want to send love to Ms. J too. And I think that's a good place to end that. I love Ms. J. He's very important to life, to this industry. Shout out to Andre Leon Talley, who got no mention whatsoever. One of my favorites ever. And I don't know, what were your final thoughts, Fran?

[B]

I mean, obviously it stirred up a lot of emotions, a lot of opinions, a lot of frustration. But I do, I do think you framed it perfectly for this episode where I do think we do have to take a step back. And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's both and right. It's like, yeah, we are frustrated with these people. We are frustrated with the way that this was set up and the harm that it caused. But it's also just like a much bigger problem.

[A]

Problem Absolutely.

[B]

It is a much bigger problem. Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know. I personally don't know. Usually they're like, we say there's a problem and we want to talk about a solution. Right. I don't know what the solution is. I think the solution is the dismantling of all of this. Because at its core, it's rotten.

[B]

Yeah. And to keep talking about it. Right. The more expose. And not even just exposes, but for ourselves, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Exposing those shadow parts of us that need light brought to them so that we can do something about it. And I think, like, that's the work that everyone has to do. And I think that's why we were so frustrated with Tyra and most of the people, because it's like, girl, it's on the table. Just look at it. Look at it. She acknowledge it.

[A]

And we. She could only acknowledge it when it was, like, painfully obvious. But I think they ended the documentary perfectly with Danielle called, calling out the. Because they gave Tyra this. They gave her this dialogue. They gave her this little Tyrion. And then all in Daniel's like, girl, that is absolutely. Let's end this.

[B]

And then she got up.

[A]

That is amazing.

[B]

Yeah. And you know what? We. We all have a lot of work to do.

[A]

We just really do. About how our perceptions about how we. When these scandals come out. Like, the ways that we discuss them. We need to pay attention to the ways that we discuss them, because that is the telling part of all of this. So I just wanted to talk about the documentary. I wanted to get through some of the details of it so that, like I said, once Kia comes back, we can dig into some of the themes that she picked up on.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That are a little bit different from what Fran and I talked about. And Fran, tell the people people where to find you.

[B]

You can find me on the Friend Zone. We drop every Wednesday episodes go live at 9am and that's really when, you know, on my hammock somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, on a hike, hanging out with rainbows and waterfalls. You know, I'm in, like the young girls say, I'm in my soft era. No, I'm just really, like, relaxing and enjoying the fruits of my labor while I still can't wait.

[A]

Okay. A possibility model. I'm still hustling and bustling on the tube channel. No, we love watching it, friend. And you are such a beautiful example for not having to get to this level of foolishness, but also what success can actually look. Look like. Right. It's not just getting a TV show it's not. Sometimes it's just finding your peace. That's when you need to find it. Your day.

[B]

Your day looking like what you want your day to look like. And that to me, that's rich. The richest form of success.

[A]

Yeah. And. And we're friends, so. We are friends.

[B]

We are. You know, Come on. How blessed.

[A]

How blessed are we? So I'm not even going to give you all a petty peeve this week. You know what I'm saying? Your girl is tired, all right? I. Running these gyms. I am. Have been suffocating you all with lots of me over the past.

[B]

We love it.

[A]

I'm so grateful that you tune into this every single week. Make sure you all are drinking your water, please. Make sure that you are minding your business, all right? That's very important in this day and age. And also moisturizing yourself so that you can end up looking like Danielle and Ebony and all.

[B]

And Desiree.

[A]

Okay, who can't? And Desiree, they all came back looking the phenomenal Ebony look. She's in her 50s.

[B]

I. When I tell you the models came, they were not playing.

[A]

They were like, look at my skin, you know?

[B]

Oh, fun fact.

[A]

Before we close, Kenya, still. Do you feel bonita? Cuz you look bonita. Kenya is one of my favorite accounts online who posts ridiculous carousels of memes and things cute.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Sister runs it. It is called I am City.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And I love I am City's page. And I was like, yo, why does this girl look so familiar? She looks just like Kenya. That's her sister.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Fun fact. So that's the way that I'm closing the episode. Shout out to City and Kenya and all of the black girls and the rest of them. I hope you have a good day. All right, you all, we'll see you next week with our guest of the season of the first of the season, the hoochie historian. We'll see you all then. Bye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Quick, choose a meal deal with McValue. The $5 McChicken meal deal, the $6 McDouble meal deal, or the new $7 Daily Double meal deal, each with its own small fries, drink and four Four Piece McNuggets. There's actually no rush. I'm just excited for McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Not badly for McDelivery.